GenCon UK 1999
James Coupe
a holiday in the South West of England, and trying to sort out things in
advance of arriving at University....
There were some good things about the organisation (good prize support,
being one) and there were some bad things (a complete mis-representation
of the timing in the programme, leading to at least 4 players not
knowing what the right time for it was), which will hopefully be
resolved with WotC and the DCI some time soon.
But on with the report, in the usual long winded way which you've all
come to know and love. 15 players ensured that we managed to get three
rounds with three tables of five - a perfectly acceptable number, and
probably the best to try and organise around, for me. And 5 player
tables are always the best in terms of game play, IMHO.
Each player had a distinctive deck, showing off most of the different
facets of Jyhad well, IMHO.
Steve Wright showed up with a weenie presence deck, which combined some
bleed capability with some voting capability. He suffered somewhat from
the environment. The voting was difficult to pull off due to there
being quite a few votes floating around, and the bleed wasn't
sufficiently backed up by stealth to enable consistency in performing
them - and there were quite a few Wakes being thrown down to nullify the
benefits of his deck having weenie vampires. Majesty was, of course,
his combat defence mostly.
Rob Treasure played the now infamous Legacy of Pander deck, more details
later.
James McClellan played a weenie Brujah/Nosferatu type potence deck.
From the looks of it when it was being played, it was probably the
closest thing that the UK Jyhad scene has come to a 'proper' weenie rush
deck, the sort of thing that Josh and Peter are exceptionally good at
creating. However, it also, as can be seen from James' deck list in
<7r0m6b$prr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> (go to http://www.deja.com/forms/mid.shtml
if you need to find the article), it also combined quite a bit of
Computer Hacking enabled bleed. That he didn't go all out on the
combat, and benefited from that slight diversification - shutting out
some extra rush, mostly - meant that his deck not only could hit out at
vampires, taking out his prey's defences, but could also speed up the
time taken to oust them from bleeds - an essential element to its
success, IMHO. I was somewhat surprised by the presence of Mighty
Grapple, it has to be said which, despite only being in the deck 5
times, seemed to turn up quite regularly. Still, the ability to hit out
hard AND press is not to be sniffed at. And 15 Immortal Grapples shut
down any chance of combat defence being likely, though a highly maneuver
capable deck could have been more difficult - only the Rushes and 5 Fake
Outs providing much in the way of maneuvers.
Baz played an interesting Malkavian deck, which seemed to try and
combine a little too much, I fear, meaning that the deck was rarely
consistent in what it was trying to do. He also lucked out quite badly
at times, getting *all* the combat cards, or all the intercept cards and
so forth. It contained a lot of weenie Malkavians, and had a large
portion of intercept and stealth. More bizarrely, though, it contained
quite a few Lucky Blows, Dodges and at least 1 Vial of Garou Blood.
Now, creative deck construction is one thing but this seemed to hit him
hard, by meaning that he couldn't ever do one thing solidly - if he
wanted to stealth something, he didn't have enough stealth at one time,
because of the intercept, or the combat or whatever. However, despite
it only featuring in his deck once (later conversations revealed), he
managed to draw Revelations in all three rounds.
Pat Vance turned up with an Anti-Brujah combat deck. It suffered
somewhat from being much higher capacity than most people would
recommend - including Jacko and Sela, when twos and threes would have
been more beneficial, given the environment. Beyond that, a fairly
standard attempt at a Celerity/Potence combination, though he lacked the
Immortal Grapples to make his assault less easy to circumvent.
Mike Nudd turned up with a combination of Tremere and Tremere Antitribu,
playing an intercept deck, backed up with Thaumaturgy combat. However,
despite the best of intentions, his deck showed up the *big* hole in
Thaumaturgy combat - the problems with dealing with Strike: Combat Ends
and Strike: Dodge. His vampires were too small to have made Thoughts
Betrayed a real possibility (mostly threes and fours), and in one combat
early on, he managed to intercept his way in, throw down a Trap, sitting
gleefully with a Walk of Flame in his hand. He then got hit with a
Majesty - oops.
Andy Smith, who several of us remembered from GenCon 1997, was playing,
as it happened, a very similar deck to then - a weenie stealth bleed
deck, packing Computer Hacking, Obfuscate and all the assorted
paraphernalia. When I dealt out the table for the second game, I saw
that I'd placed Rob Treasure as his predator, a deck that I knew Andy's
deck wouldn't be able to cope with, at all - and indeed it didn't. It
showed the vulnerability of stealth bleed to not being the be all and
end all of deck strategies, and especially that anyone playing a stealth
bleed deck is not guaranteed to automatically win - ideas which have
been explored on the newsgroup recently.
Anam Sheader played an interesting weenie presence deck, too, making for
interesting times when she ended up next to Steve Wright in at least one
game. Of course, Majesty was in abundance as combat defence and Steve
was noted as commenting that her Majesties meant that he didn't have to
bother playing his - a tactic that possibly ending up preventing him
from cycling cards as effectively as he should have done. Marijava
Ghouls were around for a little stealth - something that Steve's deck
didn't have - but the vampires seemed to be too small to carry off
playing with the Ghouls effectively - they then became perilously close
to zero blood, meaning that Legal Manipulations or something similar
forced her to hunt.
Will Lee was playing a weenie Malkavian deck and that, it appears, is
all I managed to note down about it - odd, given that Will's decks are
normally quite exciting to watch and innovative in their approaches to
winning the game.
Jon Cooper was playing a Tzimisce deck that packed quite a lot of Horrid
Forms and Body Arsenals. Anton with a Sports Bike in one round provided
quite a substantial amount of intercept, though it seemed more difficult
to duplicate that - probably good fortune, rather than planned to
happen, if you see what I mean, with only a limited amount of intercept.
A couple of Blood of Acids featured too, if I recall correctly.
Matt Green turned up with his Ventrue Aikido deck. An interesting
choice of deck, in that it very much relied on being able to turn
people's own offensive strategies against them - Elder Kindred Network
for votes, bleed bounce and so forth. Unfortunately, this hindered an
advancement of any strategies of his own meaning that, once someone
decided to stop playing ball and give him the ammunition to hit back at
them. It could probably have done with more bleed or vote on its own
account, and relying less on being able to hurl things back at people.
Barney Baker turned up with something I noted as a presence vote deck.
Anson turned up at least once, to make Master cards easier to flow with
and, whilst achieving some considerably success , he was hindered
somewhat by the environment making it difficult to proceed with votes
unopposed. However, good deck construction and excellent play meant
that he was able to garner enough votes to make mince meat of his
opponents.
Chris Booth played with large Ventrue Princes. Quite a few votes
knocked around, making for interesting times with Parity Shift and KRC.
He also had a good arsenal of wakes, deflections, 2nd Traditions and
Obedience.
Ian Stubbington played a fun little weenie bleed deck, similar to that
of Andy Smith. However, Andy at least managed a little Dominate in his,
whereas Ian seemed far more focused on the Computer Hacking element,
perhaps meaning that, in the grand scheme of things, his deck was not as
effective, point for point, as it could have been.
Niki Sehmi (my apologies to him for originally mis-spelling his name)
had a fun deck with lots of Lasombra in it. Gratiano seemed to feature
heavily, or he was just lucky with his crypt draws, meaning that he had
quite a political clout, no-one else on having any reliance on the
Prisci votes. A few Banishments meant that, when he and Rob Treasure
combined there forces on one table, there combined political output was
highly difficult to stop. However, he was also backed up by
considerable bleed power, the voting seeming to be a somewhat secondary
strategy that came good a few times, with Elysian Fields, Seduction,
Govern the Unaligned and Conditioning. Hindered in the first couple of
rounds, he managed a minor comeback in the third round when his deck
managed to pull the cards it needed at the right times.
The final was composed of Rob Treasure, Barney Baker, Andy Smith, James
McClellan and William Lee. The seating order ended up as:
Rob Treasure
Andy Smith
James McClellan
Will Lee
Barney Baker
James was the first player to leave the table, by way of a Life Boon.
In the situation he was in, his deck's effectiveness was neutered. When
Rob ousted Andy, James threw himself out of the game, garnering himself
a victory point. Whilst, perhaps, a slightly 'cheating' way of gaining
victory points, though a tactic that I myself am not averse to, it was
the only real option for him, under the circumstances. Rob then finally
got Andy out, and also ousted Will, getting himself two victory points.
Barney fought to the very end, and managed to oust Rob, getting himself
two victory points as well, but Rob's superior play in the earlier
rounds meant that he was, for the third year running, proclaimed the UK
V:TES champion.
And now to the deck itself. Rob kindly faxed me the deck list, so I
have it sitting her on my computer for transcription (a bizarre fax to
e-mail thing which is actually quite useful), along with a few comments
regarding it.
His main suggestions would be swapping out the .44 Magnum and, maybe,
the Ivory Bow for another Legacy and another "lovely" Banishment.
"A deck that I have been playing for about 2 years. I believe that it
is the most points effective deck that can be constructed for current
tournament play. It does not really what crypt <<James' Note - I think
he means Uncontrolled Region, if you get technical about it, but many
players refer to the Uncontrolled Region as their opening crypt>> and to
a certain extent what seven library cards you draw. Ok, it has a few
nasty enemies (weenie IG bash/rush, anti vote) but with the amount of
alliance making and breaking cards in the library it is so easy to
intimidate and shut down a 'problem' deck. No offence intended, but
strictly not for the novice or even the intermediate player. The deck
normally runs away and rolls the table for you but when it gets ugly,
the deck allows you to agitate on a horrible level. It sounds odd but
it draws the worst out of the player, no other deck I have ever played
requires such intimidation and co-ercion of the opposition. An evil
deck in every sense of the word that cuts down tables and changes the
way you play the game. I shall not ever be playing it again with people
I respect. <<James' Note: So that's the next tournament in Portsmouth
for it to be played, then? ;)>> (I may, however, take it to the USA
next year...... ho ho ho.)"
Crypt (14 cards) (Min: 4, Max: 15, Avg 2.08)
1 Angela Decker Pander, 1, pr
1 Antointette Du Champ Caitiff, 1, ce, pr
1 Basil Pander, 1, ob
1 Christine Boscacci Pander, 2, do vi
1 Frederick the Weak !Bru, 2, pr
1 Gillian Krader Pander, 2, an, de
1 Huang, Blood Cultist Pander, 1, pt
1 Jost Werner !Tor, 6, an AU PR
2 Lena Rowe Pander, 3, au, ob, pr
1 Lolita ! Tor, 3, fo, pr
1 March Halcyon Pander, 1, fo
1 Mitchell, the Headhunter Pander, 2, ot, po
1 Royce Pander, 1, do
Library (90 cards)
1 .44 Magnum
1 Anarch Troublemaker
1 Archon Investigation
1 Autarkis Persecution
4 Awe
2 Banishment
2 Bewitching Oration
2 Change of Target
3 Consanguineous Boon
1 Conservative Agitation
2 Cryptic Rider
1 Direct Intervention
1 Disputed Territory
3 Dodge
1 Dramatic Upheaval
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Effective Management
4 Elder Intervention
2 Elysium: The Arboretum
1 Entrancement
3 Fake Out
3 Forgotten Labyrinth
1 Heidelburg Castle, Germany
1 Humanitas
2 Information Highway
1 Ivory Bow
6 Kine Resources Contested
1 KRCG News Radio
3 Leather Jacket
8 Legacy of Pander
3 Legal Manipulations
7 Majesty
1 Major Boon
2 Media Influence
1 Misdirection
1 Mr. Winthrop
3 Presence
1 Rumours of Gehenna
1 Sudden Reversal
1 Tribute to the Master
5 Wake with Evening's Freshness
Why is this deck so successful? It is very, very hard to stop. In the
first round, a slight error by Rob meant that he didn't bleed and get
the edge before calling his vote (meaning that it got stopped), leading
to only 2 victory points, but without that, it would have run away with
that table as well. It's a very difficult deck to stop. The sheer
speed with which it can get votes onto the table (when other players may
not have even got their first vampire out) mean that other vote decks
have a hard time opposing it - they're trying to get out Praxis
Seizures, Princes and so forth, and don't have that much time for Dread
Gaze. It has enough votes to make life very, very hectic for other
people - 6 KRC, 2 Banishments and so forth, mean that other people have
a hard time opposing it. Yet it will also shut down other people's vote
decks very easily. It's quite easy for this deck to get 36 votes onto
the table (it's been done at least twice, and anyway, once you get above
about 20 votes, it's unlikely that the entire rest of the table will be
able to oppose you), so you'll never get rid of the Elysium that way -
contesting it (difficult for you, because of the pool cost) or location
destruction (not abundant) would be the only really viable options. So
it has excellent possibilities against other vote decks, and should
hopefully be able to rip through its prey like nobody's business to get
more pool, more vampires and fend off bleed decks - and its initial
investment in vampires is small - it doesn't need to speed 15 or more
pool to get out a few vampires, he can do it in probably 6 or 7 pool.
It can get out a lot of vampires, in the end, so it would require a very
focused intercept deck to have a good go at it, but the sheer number of
vampires it can get out, in the end, mean that the intercept deck just
can't block them all - and the ones it can't block will quickly kill it,
especially since he has the option of Majesty, and intercept/potence is
rare. Bleed is also in there so when he does mess up, he has enough
vampires to just take out your pool as and when he wants. It's just a
frighteningly effective deck, that does very, very well against all
opposition. True, there are decks that *can* stand up to it - Rob noted
before the final that the only deck he was truly scared off was James
McClellan's weenie combat deck, meaning that he tried not to sit
anywhere near it, whilst still keeping a sensible position regarding the
other decks on the table.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England)
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk
Halcyan 2
questions on how it works:
So the main ways he hurt his prey was with KRC and a few bleed + cards, right?
From what I've seen, it relies heavily on voting. I didn't see very many
stealth cards, so wouldn't a decent intercept deck be able to shut the deck
down?
With small vampires and only 7 Majesties, one would think that a dedicated
combat deck would also be able to mop the floor with the Pander deck.
(In the latter two cases, I suppose that having lots of low capacity vamps DOES
make those vamps a bit expendable but...)
Halcyan 2
legb...@my-deja.com
halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote:
> Took a quick look at Rob Treasure's Pander deck and I have a few quick
> questions on how it works:
>
> So the main ways he hurt his prey was with KRC and a few bleed + cards, right?
It's a swarm deck. The Consanguineous Boons pay for LOTS of little
vampires.
>
> From what I've seen, it relies heavily on voting. I didn't see very many
> stealth cards, so wouldn't a decent intercept deck be able to shut the deck
> down?
Yes, and that is more or less what happened in the first round - Steve as
his predator shut him down with 2nd Trads, and i beat up a vamp or two.
>
> With small vampires and only 7 Majesties, one would think that a dedicated
> combat deck would also be able to mop the floor with the Pander deck.
>
> (In the latter two cases, I suppose that having lots of low capacity vamps DOES
> make those vamps a bit expendable but...)
>
> Halcyan 2
i actually built my weenie rush deck SPECIFICALLY to beat up Rob's Pander
deck, and in the first round i actually won, getting more VPs than Rob.
But Rob was second, because we made a deal that if he laid off me for a
bit i would give him the last two VPs. In the end, even if i HADN'T kept
the deal, he would have got me, because i was all out of library.
As for the points about intercept and combat in general being Rob's
deck's nemesis, of course you are right. But in tournaments people play
their BEST decks, not their funnest decks. This inevitably means that
most of the stuff on show will be bleed and vote, because it takes a
REALLY skilled player to make anything much of a combat or intercept
deck. One of Rob's many great strengths as a player is his sensitivity to
this sort of nuance, or metagame i suppose you could call it. He aims to
get to the final with the most VPs, and once he is there he can choose
not to be close to anybody who has the bad taste [from his point of view]
to be playing something he can't easily deal with.
On a separate subject, a couple of comments about James's tournament
report ... excellent as usual, and bound to contribute significantly to
his knicker collection which i look forward to inspecting when i visit
him in Cambridge. However, i don't think it's entirely fair to write off
William Lee's deck as weenie malkies, cos quite a few of them were
Gilbert Duane-sized or better. He picked up several of his weenies by
grave-robbing, and had a decent combat defence [at least against my kind
of deck] in the form of Muddles. In the third heat he ousted me with an
Anarch Uprising. It was, of course, the Infamous Will's Deck of Cheese
with which he has been threatening all of us since the last GenCon. And
in fact, Will COULD have won at GenCon. That he didn't was ENTIRELY down
to his keeping his word in a deal he made with Barney. So Will keeps his
title of Creative Deck Designer AND Nice Guy, IMO. Second comment is
really to enlarge on James's accurate description of my demise in the
final. i found myself with a weenie dom-bleed deck up my bottom for the
second time in two games, and spent essentially ALL my time defending
against it, especially after Andy broke a deal with me [as a dedicated
deal-keeper, i take these things personally]. After a few rounds of the
Wrath of Legbiter Andy had essentially no vamps and Rob was looking at an
easy VP, plus he had a Major Boon on me. Clearly therefore i was Toast of
the most Toasty Variety, and it was time for Plan B - oust myself with a
Life Boon and leave Andy to squirm for a few more rounds on the poignard
of Treasure. This, i have to say, gave me GREAT satisfaction, Rob a
little less so i fancy. But he forgave me after the final.
MORAL: [i] never promise a Legbiter something you have no intention of
delivering. [ii] deal with the Devil only if his name is Lee or Legbiter.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
James Coupe
<halc...@aol.com> writes
>So the main ways he hurt his prey was with KRC and a few bleed + cards, right?
>
>stealth cards, so wouldn't a decent intercept deck be able to shut the deck
>down?
Possibly, but somewhat unlikely. The deck regularly gets out *many*
vampires, so you'd have to be able to consistently block all of them.
If you don't, you die. Quickly.
My notes indicate that in the third round, he was the initial predator
of Mike Nudd, the major intercept deck of the tournament. Rob still
managed to get three of the five victory points from the table, with
very little loss of life to his vampires.
Most decks will have probably less than half the number of vampires Rob
has out at any one time, especially in the short term. This means that
on any given turn, they need to probably have at least three Wakes in
their hand (of whatever sort) before they can start to block all his
vampires.
Three Change of Targets (so he can bleed if he tried to vote, or vote if
he tried to bleed), an Anarch Troublemaker and a Misdirection also make
planning your defence much trickier, as you find that the vampires you
thought you had, you just don't have any more.
Also, solid intercept is a less than viable deck, generally. To just
intercept means you can rarely win a round. When you start
diversifying, you lose your intercept prowess and BANG, decks like this
can get through the holes you leave. Also, an intercept deck is likely
to need vampires of at least three capacity (so you can start getting
Auspex *AND* something else to hurt them with, or Animalism AND
something else etc.), whereas this deck is only 2.08 in average
capacity.
>
>With small vampires and only 7 Majesties, one would think that a dedicated
>combat deck would also be able to mop the floor with the Pander deck.
7 Majesties are enough to provide a serious annoyance to any non-
IG/Potence based deck, of which quite a few do turn up.
You also miss the three Dodges, the Leather Jackets, three Fake Outs,
the Ivory Bow, the .44 Magnum and Elysium: The Arboretum. A Humanitas
provides a little help for those times when a Majesty isn't called for.
A dedicated combat deck has, I think the best known, is about 3 average
capacity. This deck has the smallest average capacity in a consistently
viable deck I've ever seen, to be honest. It gets out lots of vampires,
lots and lots of vampires. It can secure itself the pool to then bring
out more. It *will* have more vampires than you, if it has anything to
say about it, simply because they're so cheap and yours, well, aren't.
If you annoy it, it can have enough clout to really, really kill *any*
moves from anyone else on the table simply through co-ercion. As Rob
says, it can make and break deals quite easily, as a lot of the other
players see "Well, what am I going to do with this deck on the table?
He'll get me, but how do I get a little something out of this?"
Quite honestly, I've not seen a deck that can really stand up to it.
Decks that can annoy it, yes. Decks that can hurt it, yes. Decks that
can sit there and *stop* Rob from progressing, no questions asked?
Never.
What you also have to account for is Rob's own prowess at the game. He
is a highly talented V:TES player, who was managed to win the GenCon
tournament 3 years running. That doesn't come without a *lot* of skill,
and he does have it in droves - they took away his ability to lose
gracefully, and gave him more skill to compensate. He has the best
innate ability to jostle players into doing what he wants, entirely
calmly and fairly, to judge table dynamics, to understand the flow of
the game, to judge his best move in the given circumstances, to out-
guess his opponents and so forth that I have ever seen from *any*
player. Seriously. Things like that just don't get reflected in deck
lists.
Don't get me wrong. There *are* ways to defeat this deck. However, it
has many advantages in its favour, making it difficult to do that -
intercept is made more difficult by a strong weenie presence; combat is
made difficult for all non-IG decks by the Majesties etc.; anti-vote is
made difficult by the ability to secure a vote lock even before another
deck has got a voting vampire out (assume that first turn, I go before
you - I get out a/some vampires first go, almost a certainty, from
experience of watching the deck play, you transfer to a vampire, I call
a vote second turn to start getting out Legacies and hold a vote lock,
you bring out the smallest competitive voting vampire you can - Volker,
but I've already got out my Legacy, and I generate more and more votes
just by bringing out vampires). All the standard tactics have to be re-
thought, heavily, and modified to suit it. You can't just play a
standard anti-vote deck and expect it to work, or a standard "Road
block" deck, because by the time you get everything set up, this deck's
been going for at least a turn, most likely.
Richard Zopf
Halcyan 2 wrote in message <19990916190127...@ng-bk1.aol.com>...
>Took a quick look at Rob Treasure's Pander deck and I have a few quick
>questions on how it works:
>
right?
>
>From what I've seen, it relies heavily on voting. I didn't see very many
>stealth cards, so wouldn't a decent intercept deck be able to shut the deck
>down?
>
;-)
(Conor Key's Tzimice deck...) Intercept is almost always a losing prospect.
Tournaments are all about winning. Thus it's rare that the two ever meet.
Regards,
R. David Zopf
Atom Weaver (& V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC)
Celt
Richard Zopf <guenh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7rte1t$v25$5...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net...
If you are thinking about DragonCon is was my Gangrel deck. It is my most
consistent deck. I screw my predator, help my pray and usually get 2 vp's.
The drawback is my pray gets 3vp's.
>
> Regards,
> R. David Zopf
> Atom Weaver (& V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC)
--
Conor
Prince of Raleigh
c34m...@my-deja.com
> Rob Treasure played the now infamous Legacy of Pander deck, more
details
> later.
So does this mean that Legacy of Pander is broken? I can't think of
too many other (read none) cards which can give you stackable,
permanent votes. And the thought of 6 pander with 5 Legacy's having
more voting power than all I.C. Members put together seems laughable to
me. Of course, not too many players are going to have 8 or even 4
Legacy's, so I doubt this deck will cause the same havoc that a weenie
dom deck using only common cards can. However, it does seem strange
that the spoiler list contains one card text, and the card contains
another.
Joe C.
c34m...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Rob Treasure played the now infamous Legacy of Pander deck, more
> > details later.
>
No.
Let's see first you need get to the referendum, secondly you need to
pass the first vote. This is a tricky slope indeed. So now they have
the votes. They still need to do something with them or else they just
have votes. This deck is also less of a monkey grinder than the WT&B.
It will require a lot more finesse than just simply turning the crank.
It will also suffer with just a little transient intercept floaty
around.
Misdirection, now there's a card that needs to be banned from the
tourney scene, IMHO.
> I can't think of too many other (read none) cards which can give you
> stackable, permanent votes. And the thought of 6 pander with 5
> Legacy's having more voting power than all I.C. Members put together
> seems laughable to me.
The real power resides in the anarchs, I.C. members are just the old
windbags of the camarilla.
With just one vampire I can generate more votes than all I.C. members
combined, with a total output of only 9 pool total
Gideon Fontaine PRE 3cap -3 pool
1 - for the Political Action
4 - for the Bewitching oration
7 - for the Awe
18- for the business pressure, -6 pool
---
30 Votes 9-pool, I think I did the math right.
> However, it does seem strange that the spoiler list contains
> one card text, and the card contains another.
The spoiler lists are often riddled with inaccuracies.
My Two Pennies worth,
Joe C.
VEKN Prince of Columbia, SC
Halcyan 2
>windbags of the camarilla.
>
>With just one vampire I can generate more votes than all I.C. members
>combined, with a total output of only 9 pool total
>
>Gideon Fontaine PRE 3cap -3 pool
>1 - for the Political Action
>4 - for the Bewitching oration
>7 - for the Awe
>18- for the business pressure, -6 pool
>---
>30 Votes 9-pool, I think I did the math right.
Yeah this makes sense because you're a Methusaleh! In this case it's you, not
Gideon, who's more or less creating most of the votes. Sure, the IC members
may be pretty powerful but a Methusaleh is SO much more powerful. And here the
Methusaleh is spending NINE pool. That's about a third of his whole influence.
Such a concerted effort by such a powerful being is sure to lead to such a
drastic result.
Halcyan 2
P.S. Just watch out for those Pulled Strings and Demonstrations (I think it's
that card).
Fish Flowers
> >30 Votes 9-pool, I think I did the math right.
>
> P.S. Just watch out for those Pulled Strings and Demonstrations (I think it's
> that card).
Yes, Pulled Strings and Demonstration both (as well as Quentin) will
cancel votes.
Kindred Coercion, of course, will _reverse_ them...
Fish.
bwahahahahahahahaha
legb...@my-deja.com
> details
> > later.
>
> too many other (read none) cards which can give you stackable,
> permanent votes.
You know, it's often alleged against us Brits that we hate success, and
in that sense i find this a very British response. Having played against
Rob's LoP deck several times and winning maybe 1/5, i admire the thought
that's gone into constructing the deck, and the skill with which Rob
himself plays it. If i wasn't such a combat junky i would probably try to
construct a Toreador votey kind of deck to trump Rob's LoPs using Closed
Session, and maybe to vote them out with a few !Tor or presency Pander of
my own. As it is, if i judge that Rob is likely to be playing a
particular deck, i construct a deck that i feel comfortable playing, and
that has a chance of giving him a hard time. i certainly do NOT whine
about the cards that comprise Rob's decks - if i did, there would be
about three cards left in the VTES set. Just in case you don't know, Rob
has won the UK GenCon nationals three times in a row, each time with a
different deck - the first time it was a Ventrue votey job, the second
time a fortitudinous Lazverinus deck, and the third time was the deck we
are discussing here. None of these is in any sense a stupid, automatic
kind of a deck - each is actually highly flexible and [in Rob's hands at
least] can do the Bobby Fischer trick of suddenly pulling off something
you thought that kind of deck [in Fischer's case, gambit] could not do -
for example, some incarnations of the LoP deck are actually not bad at
combat, and all have a bit of stealth-bleed into the bargain. He is just
a very, very good VTES player, probably the best in the world, that's the
bottom line, and he deserves, and should get, the credit for that.
And the thought of 6 pander with 5 Legacy's having
> more voting power than all I.C. Members put together seems laughable to
> me.
Well, that's a role-playing point. And in terms of the V:tM game, i don't
think it's a very strong one, since if your GM is anything like
reasonable, your eensy-weensy Neonates and Ancillas ARE going to end up
in positions of great vampiric power. Course, by then their humanity is
going to be a bit on the iffy side. Furthermore, LoP works nicely with
the current millenial theme of VtM, where the Apocalypse is being brought
on by some Neonate girly with a funny tattoo.
Of course, not too many players are going to have 8 or even 4
> Legacy's, so I doubt this deck will cause the same havoc that a weenie
> dom deck using only common cards can.
Indeed, you have to be a good player to pull off Rob's deck, as he says
in his GenCon notes - "not a deck for the inexperienced player". LoP is a
rare, of course, but i could build Rob's deck, despite having traded two
of my copies to him.
However, it does seem strange
> that the spoiler list contains one card text, and the card contains
> another.
>
You mean you think it shouldn't be, or wasn't meant to be, stackable? A
lot of folks would agree with that. But how many titles can be removed by
a successful cardless vote? i think the current text is just fine.
Sorry if any of this sounds flamey, but i REALLY don't like the NG
tendency to launch into successful decks or players with the "o, anyone
could've done that, cos the cards you picked were broken." If someone
builds a good deck, think of how to construct a better one. It always
exists, because of the rock-paper-scissors interaction of the basic
strategies.
c34m...@my-deja.com
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <7saqrb$bqg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> c34m...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > details
> > > later.
> >
> > too many other (read none) cards which can give you stackable,
> > permanent votes.
>
> tendency to launch into successful decks or players with the "o,
anyone
> could've done that, cos the cards you picked were broken." If someone
> builds a good deck, think of how to construct a better one. It always
> exists, because of the rock-paper-scissors interaction of the basic
> strategies.
Actually, I was interested to see what the response was, mostly because
i've never seen the "Lagacy of Pander" played before. The reponses
seem to indicate that it is not unbalanced and although it can be
pretty effective when stacked, it is much more the player who makes
this deck work (although it is very well constructed). The fact that
he didn't sweep each table indicates that it is not the "Ultimate" deck
capable of winning everytime.
James Coupe
>So does this mean that Legacy of Pander is broken?
No. It does need a severe tweaking of more general tactics to work
against, but then any "obscure" deck style needs that. This is one,
however, that really throws a curve ball at anyone not prepared for it.
legb...@my-deja.com
c34m...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <7sd2ug$vje$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > c34m...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rob Treasure played the now infamous Legacy of Pander deck, more
> > > details
> > > > later.
> > >
> > > too many other (read none) cards which can give you stackable,
> > > permanent votes.
> >
> > Sorry if any of this sounds flamey, but i REALLY don't like the NG
> > tendency to launch into successful decks or players with the "o,
> anyone
> > could've done that, cos the cards you picked were broken." If someone
> > builds a good deck, think of how to construct a better one. It always
> > exists, because of the rock-paper-scissors interaction of the basic
> > strategies.
>
> Actually, I was interested to see what the response was, mostly because
> i've never seen the "Lagacy of Pander" played before. The reponses
> seem to indicate that it is not unbalanced and although it can be
> pretty effective when stacked, it is much more the player who makes
> this deck work (although it is very well constructed). The fact that
> he didn't sweep each table indicates that it is not the "Ultimate" deck
> capable of winning everytime.
>
at facts before making judgment>
Gee, sorry i snapped at you, then! Actually i was thinking of building an
LoP voty/combat deck - using Unacceptable Appearance on my own !Nossies
to give it the extra punch. The first incarnation was a dismal failure,
though.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Eric Pettersen
> In article <7saqrb$bqg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> c34m...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > details
> > > later.
> >
> > too many other (read none) cards which can give you stackable,
> > permanent votes.
>
> in that sense i find this a very British response. Having played against
> Rob's LoP deck several times and winning maybe 1/5, i admire the thought
> that's gone into constructing the deck, and the skill with which Rob
> himself plays it. If i wasn't such a combat junky i would probably try
> to construct a Toreador votey kind of deck to trump Rob's LoPs using
> Closed Session, and maybe to vote them out with a few !Tor or presency
No, no, no. The _fun_ way to beat the LoP deck is to use Settites. Fred
Scott was playing a LoP deck and had about 8 votes per Pander, but after
a while my Settite deck was getting control of enough of Fred's Panders
on my turn that I was able to vote out the Legacys with Fred's own Panders!
Fred won anyway but it was pretty damn amusing to see the Panders burning
the LoPs.
---
Eric Pettersen
pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)
legb...@my-deja.com
pe...@address.is.in.sig (Eric Pettersen) wrote:
> legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <7saqrb$bqg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > c34m...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > details
> > > > later.
> > >
> > > too many other (read none) cards which can give you stackable,
> > > permanent votes.
> >
> > You know, it's often alleged against us Brits that we hate success, and
> > in that sense i find this a very British response. Having played against
> > Rob's LoP deck several times and winning maybe 1/5, i admire the thought
> > that's gone into constructing the deck, and the skill with which Rob
> > himself plays it. If i wasn't such a combat junky i would probably try
> > to construct a Toreador votey kind of deck to trump Rob's LoPs using
> > Closed Session, and maybe to vote them out with a few !Tor or presency
> > Pander of my own..
>
> No, no, no. The _fun_ way to beat the LoP deck is to use Settites. Fred
> Scott was playing a LoP deck and had about 8 votes per Pander, but after
> a while my Settite deck was getting control of enough of Fred's Panders
> on my turn that I was able to vote out the Legacys with Fred's own Panders!
> Fred won anyway but it was pretty damn amusing to see the Panders burning
> the LoPs.
> ---
you can use Corruption. i did think about taking my corruption deck [or
Legbiter's Halloweenies - a Setite/Giovanni corrupt, embrace and rush
deck], but i figured that if i ended upstream of someone who wasn't
playing weenies i would get screwed, and also i knew that Rob's deck
often rearranged the table using Dramatic Upheaval. Maybe i was wrong,
though. There WERE an awful lot of weenie decks at GenCon, and i think if
someone HAD been playing Setite corruption they probably would've reached
the final.
James Coupe
>The fact that
>he didn't sweep each table indicates that it is not the "Ultimate" deck
>capable of winning everytime.
The first table was due solely to a mistake on his part, as it goes. A
mis-timed bleed meaning the Edge ended up with the wrong person.
However, I have not suggested that it is the Ultimate deck, or broken.
It can and has been delayed and ousted by people. What it is, though,
is difficult to deal with.
Mike Nudd
>>From what I've seen, it relies heavily on voting. I didn't see very many
>>stealth cards, so wouldn't a decent intercept deck be able to shut the deck
>>down?
>
>Possibly, but somewhat unlikely. The deck regularly gets out *many*
>vampires, so you'd have to be able to consistently block all of them.
>If you don't, you die. Quickly.
>
>My notes indicate that in the third round, he was the initial predator
>of Mike Nudd, the major intercept deck of the tournament.
Hey! I get a mention! Apologies to everyone for the late posting -
I've only just discovered the group.....
I have to say that the game in question was a close run thing - I was
pushing those Panders all the way, and interecepted every LoP that he
tried to play. If my predator hadn't been so damn tenacious I could
have had him in my pool....
> Rob still
>managed to get three of the five victory points from the table, with
>very little loss of life to his vampires.
IRRC ehen I left the table he'd lost his key votes, and had at least
one guy in torpor, with the rest down to very little blood. The
biggest problem was that *his* prey was a Ventrue vote/presence deck
which wasn't causing any harm at all to his Panders...
>Also, solid intercept is a less than viable deck, generally. To just
>intercept means you can rarely win a round. When you start
>diversifying, you lose your intercept prowess and BANG, decks like this
>can get through the holes you leave.
I will say that my deck was a little on the slow side. I came a
hair-breadth of scoring VPs in all three games.. It's difficult to
balance a deck with enough intercept to cope with the likes of the LoP
deck and still have enough gumph to clean up the table. TBH I haven't
had a lot of practice and I'm still tweaking my deck...
> Also, an intercept deck is likely
>to need vampires of at least three capacity (so you can start getting
>Auspex *AND* something else to hurt them with, or Animalism AND
>something else etc.), whereas this deck is only 2.08 in average
>capacity.
Scouring my collection gives me a good selection of vamps of 5 or
below, and with a few discipline cards thrown in, you're not doing
bad... Tha main problem is an intercept deck in a two player game is
not fast enough to deal with most other combinations... In larger
games you have more time to build your resources....
>>With small vampires and only 7 Majesties, one would think that a dedicated
>>combat deck would also be able to mop the floor with the Pander deck.
>
>7 Majesties are enough to provide a serious annoyance to any non-
>IG/Potence based deck, of which quite a few do turn up.
Stirke: Combat Ends is the bane of the game. In this 'new set' I hope
they put in some more cards that cancel strikes....
>A dedicated combat deck has, I think the best known, is about 3 average
>capacity. This deck has the smallest average capacity in a consistently
>viable deck I've ever seen, to be honest. It gets out lots of vampires,
>lots and lots of vampires. It can secure itself the pool to then bring
>out more. It *will* have more vampires than you, if it has anything to
>say about it, simply because they're so cheap and yours, well, aren't.
>If you annoy it, it can have enough clout to really, really kill *any*
>moves from anyone else on the table simply through co-ercion. As Rob
>says, it can make and break deals quite easily, as a lot of the other
>players see "Well, what am I going to do with this deck on the table?
>He'll get me, but how do I get a little something out of this?"
That was something that kinda riled me... I enjoy playing the game,
and people striking deals over the cards for VPs is just annoying....
>Quite honestly, I've not seen a deck that can really stand up to it.
>Decks that can annoy it, yes. Decks that can hurt it, yes. Decks that
>can sit there and *stop* Rob from progressing, no questions asked?
>Never.
Another LoP deck? :¬>
>What you also have to account for is Rob's own prowess at the game. He
>is a highly talented V:TES player, who was managed to win the GenCon
>tournament 3 years running.
Really? Woah....
>That doesn't come without a *lot* of skill,
>and he does have it in droves - they took away his ability to lose
>gracefully, and gave him more skill to compensate. He has the best
>innate ability to jostle players into doing what he wants, entirely
>calmly and fairly, to judge table dynamics, to understand the flow of
>the game, to judge his best move in the given circumstances, to out-
>guess his opponents and so forth that I have ever seen from *any*
>player. Seriously. Things like that just don't get reflected in deck
>lists.
Hat off to the guy, no doubt about that. The GenCon games really
opened my eyes. I've never seen such fine playing.....
Time to delve through the collection and come up with something
stonking....
Cheers,
----
Mike Nudd
mi...@darkness.org.uk
<work in progress... www.darkness.org.uk>
James Coupe
<mi...@darkness.org.uk> writes
>Stirke: Combat Ends is the bane of the game. In this 'new set' I hope
>they put in some more cards that cancel strikes....
Myself, I'd be more partial to something that nullified S:CE, to some
limited extent, giving other clans access to an Immortal Grapple of some
sort. Merely cancelling the strike doesn't necessarily help - they just
play another :( And then you are helping them cycle their deck.
legb...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <37f0f6e2....@news.ftech.net>, Mike Nudd
> <mi...@darkness.org.uk> writes
> >Stirke: Combat Ends is the bane of the game. In this 'new set' I hope
> >they put in some more cards that cancel strikes....
>
> Myself, I'd be more partial to something that nullified S:CE, to some
> limited extent, giving other clans access to an Immortal Grapple of some
> sort. Merely cancelling the strike doesn't necessarily help - they just
> play another :( And then you are helping them cycle their deck.
>
inferior pot, so they can all play immortal grapple. The Tremere have DOM
for Thoughts Betrayed, the Gangrel have dogpack, obf clans have Hidden
Lurker, aus clans have Fast Reaction and any clan with intercept and the
ability to do aggravated strikes can play Rotshreck. Doesn't that pretty
much cover all the combat clans? i'm not saying i'm not with you, James,
because obviously as a combat fiend i have an axe to grind here, but i
really think the necessary tweak is a minor one, to give the poor old
Assamites something of their very own against SCE. Maybe we don't even
need a new card, just a rules clarification to the effect that First
Strike beats SCE and dodge.
Celt
> i can't think of a clan that doesn't have at least one member with
> inferior pot, so they can all play immortal grapple. The Tremere have DOM
> for Thoughts Betrayed, the Gangrel have dogpack, obf clans have Hidden
> Lurker, aus clans have Fast Reaction and any clan with intercept and the
> ability to do aggravated strikes can play Rotshreck. Doesn't that pretty
> much cover all the combat clans? i'm not saying i'm not with you, James,
> because obviously as a combat fiend i have an axe to grind here, but i
> really think the necessary tweak is a minor one, to give the poor old
> Assamites something of their very own against SCE. Maybe we don't even
> need a new card, just a rules clarification to the effect that First
> Strike beats SCE and dodge.
I agree, this should be looked at first. If First Strike is game altering
then look into new cards. But there are very few cards that grant First
Strike, so I don't think it would too over powering. Maybe this is a
question for the Rules Team.
--
Conor
Prince of Raleigh
>
>
James Coupe
>The Tremere have DOM
>for Thoughts Betrayed, the Gangrel have dogpack, obf clans have Hidden
>Lurker, aus clans have Fast Reaction and any clan with intercept and the
>ability to do aggravated strikes can play Rotshreck. Doesn't that pretty
>much cover all the combat clans?
Thoughts Betrayed is expensive and requires superior Dominate. Weenies
have no chance.
The Dog Pack is so expensive, unique and fragile as to render it
unusable - you can't afford to only attack with 1 (two with Heidelberg)
minion per turn.
Hidden Lurker requires co-operation from the person you want to attack,
in that they have to block
Fast Reaction requires you to be playing blocking tactics, and requires
two minions for one combat, and they have to act with the vampire you
want to attack
Rotschreck restricts you to one per turn, and a single SR will kill it.
(DI will kill one IG, but you can play another - you can't play another
Rotschreck) Also, how would you propose for, say, a Toreador gun deck
to get repeatable aggro damage, without resorting to burning its own
guns?
Psyche (which you missed) means they just get to cycle their deck some
more
What I want is some way for the other clans to fight in a way similar to
Immortal Grapple. Immortal Grapple, as with many other similar cards,
is a "trump" in its own corner - it stops non-hand strikes, and so the
opponent can't just cycle the S:CE for no effect. Similarly, if I play
Theft of Vitae, you can't just play Skin of Rock for no effect, so I
hand jam you there.
A potence deck with Immortal Grapple has many advantages over any of the
ones you note above. It stops cards being played, it can be used many
times a turn since it's a minion card, it doesn't require the person you
attack to "co-operate", it isn't expensive (in any terms - pool,
opportunity etc.), it won't just go away at the first sign of trouble,
it can't be stolen, it isn't unique, it allows one minion to attack on
its own skills, not two together. Each of the cards above has serious
flaws in being used for combat offence of any kind. You can't stand up
to a strong use of S:CE, IMO, with any of the cards above, since they're
very, very poor substitutes for IG. What I want is something similar to
(but different enough to differentiate it, and develop different tactics
for use) IG, but watered down a little since potence is supposed to be a
Good Combat Discipline, such that I can go out with Ignatius to steal
your blood and be able to do it. After all, I can go out with Hasina
Kesi and rip your arms off - shouldn't I be able to do the same with
other clans?
legb...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7stc88$7u5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, legb...@my-deja.com writes
> >The Tremere have DOM
> >for Thoughts Betrayed, the Gangrel have dogpack, obf clans have Hidden
> >Lurker, aus clans have Fast Reaction and any clan with intercept and the
> >ability to do aggravated strikes can play Rotshreck. Doesn't that pretty
> >much cover all the combat clans?
>
> Thoughts Betrayed is expensive and requires superior Dominate. Weenies
> have no chance.
Granted indeed, but if you want every clan to have a weenie-implementable
viable rush-combat strategy then you are even more of a combat fiend than
i am! Also you clipped my first point: all clans have somebody, usually
reasonably cheap, with pot; so all of them CAN make use of IG.
>
> The Dog Pack is so expensive, unique and fragile as to render it
> unusable - you can't afford to only attack with 1 (two with Heidelberg)
> minion per turn.
And it's a rare. Again granted, given the point that a viable combat deck
has to be able to deal with weenie pre hordes [but see below].
>
> Hidden Lurker requires co-operation from the person you want to attack,
> in that they have to block
Hmm, is that really the ruling? If it is, you are right, of course. But
to me the card is ambiguous: it says "only useable after an acting minion
has completed combat. Another minion now enters combat with the BLOCKING
minion." i've always taken that to be a sloppy wording, so that, for
example, you could rush with minion A, not be blocked, defender SCE's and
then you whack them with the lurker. But i can see how it could be read
that if there is no block, the lurker cannot attack. If that's
right,maybe we need a Hidden Lurker-like [Concealed Lurker? The Enemy
Within?] Action Modifier/Reaction for which you pay one blood, and then
it has the effect i thought it had. Now that WOULD be very Assamity/
Nossie/Mad malky chainsaw wielding fools!
>
> Fast Reaction requires you to be playing blocking tactics, and requires
> two minions for one combat, and they have to act with the vampire you
> want to attack
OK, but block-combat is quite sweet. A predator and prey who are rightly
afraid to take any actions at all [except for the prey bleeding your
grand-prey] is a nice step towards winning the game. i agree that it is
better to be pro-active, however.
>
> Rotschreck restricts you to one per turn, and a single SR will kill it.
> (DI will kill one IG, but you can play another - you can't play another
> Rotschreck) Also, how would you propose for, say, a Toreador gun deck
> to get repeatable aggro damage, without resorting to burning its own
> guns?
Apart from Ivory Bow and Flamethrowers, you mean? i think where we are
disagreeing here is on the desirability of ALL clans being as combat-hot
as the potence lads n lasses and the Assamites. i think all clans need
SOMETHING against SCE. i think they have it right now. The gangrel have a
couple of medium-sized pot/pro's so they are ok, and the dogpack means
that they should be able to get 3-ish hurty atacks per turn, even against
weenie pre decks. i don't think it's desirable that the prancing nancy
boys n gals in the statue-hugging clique should be able to face off
against REAL men and women without worrying about getting their beautiful
heads ripped off and thrown in the nearest dumpster. On the other hand
they SHOULD be able to spring nasty surprises against pre decks, and
through Fast Reaction/Eagles' Sight, they can.
>
> Psyche (which you missed) means they just get to cycle their deck some
> more
Well no, i didn't miss it, and i completely agree with your summary of
its effects. i left it out because it doesn't cancel SCE, it merely gives
you another chance to be disappointed when one appears.
>
> What I want is some way for the other clans to fight in a way similar to
> Immortal Grapple. Immortal Grapple, as with many other similar cards,
> is a "trump" in its own corner - it stops non-hand strikes, and so the
> opponent can't just cycle the S:CE for no effect. Similarly, if I play
> Theft of Vitae, you can't just play Skin of Rock for no effect, so I
> hand jam you there.
>
> A potence deck with Immortal Grapple has many advantages over any of the
> ones you note above. It stops cards being played, it can be used many
> times a turn since it's a minion card, it doesn't require the person you
> attack to "co-operate", it isn't expensive (in any terms - pool,
> opportunity etc.), it won't just go away at the first sign of trouble,
> it can't be stolen, it isn't unique, it allows one minion to attack on
> its own skills, not two together. Each of the cards above has serious
> flaws in being used for combat offence of any kind. You can't stand up
> to a strong use of S:CE, IMO, with any of the cards above, since they're
> very, very poor substitutes for IG. What I want is something similar to
> (but different enough to differentiate it, and develop different tactics
> for use) IG, but watered down a little since potence is supposed to be a
> Good Combat Discipline, such that I can go out with Ignatius to steal
> your blood and be able to do it. After all, I can go out with Hasina
> Kesi and rip your arms off - shouldn't I be able to do the same with
> other clans?
>
Some of the other clans is the key phrase here, and i certainly agree
with it. And Ignatius CAN steal my blood, if he gets DOM/THA, given
enough Thoughts Betrayed, fake-outs/apportations, IR goggles and presses.
i'm cool with that. He is an undead sorcerer's apprentice, not the full
thing, and he needs a bit of tuition first ["truly, gravehopper, you have
much to learn!"]. But for me the serious combat ought to come from the
Assamites, Brujah and nossies, gangrel, big Tremere and most of the
sabbat. Largely this IS the current situation, except that the Assamites
have a hard time dealing with anybody who is not also combat-oriented [in
straight combat/combat games they are GREAT, as Michael taught me last
night once i had ousted Alex's puny stealth-bleed-telepathic counterers
with my mighty potence-rush deck]. It seems to me that we disagree, if at
all, only about how wide the combat camp should be. Why don't we just
step outside at the next Portsmouth Tournament and have it out like men.
i promise not to play any SCE's, ok?
Peter D Bakija
>>i can't think of a clan that doesn't have at least one member with
inferior pot, so they can all play immortal grapple.>>
Ok, that is just silly. Having a single member of a given clan with Pot does
not enable a strategy built around Pot and some other wacky discipline. It just
isn't going to work. IG really is only useful with Pot combat--what are the
Assamites and Tremere going to do with IG? Ok, the Assamites have Kahbar, which
has a high opportunity cost, and I know Xian made a wacky Tremere IG first
round so they could get to the second deck, that while funny, seemed sketchy at
best. IG works very well with Pro, but the smallest Gangrel with Pot is a 6
(ok, there is Rex, the Necronmicist, who, contrary to popular theory about what
is physically possible, both sucks *and* blows...). Having Pot on a single
vampire does not enable a strategy to work. The Tremere have pot on Sabine (5)
and larger vampires. The Assamites have pot on, umm, Thetmes maybe? The Gangrel
get Pot on 6 point guys. That is pretty much it.
>>The Tremere have DOM for Thoughts Betrayed,>>
Which is perfectly viable, although a tad expensive and requires DOM--making a
Tremere Rush deck not particularly workable (due to the need for DOM), but that
is neither here nor there.
>>the Gangrel have dogpack,>>
Dog Pack is like my cat Yojimbo--very bitey. Expensive, slow, fragile, limited.
Just not a good card. Ok, it exists, which is better than nothing, but it
simply isn't good.
>>obf clans have Hidden Lurker,>>
Which only works if your prey blocks you. Who is going to block a guy with
viable combat ability and Obf? Umm, no one?
>>aus clans have Fast Reaction>>
Fast Reaction, again, just isn't any good. Takes two vampires to do the work of
one. Requires having a vampire untapped (or a Wake) to use it. Takes up space
in your hand that is usually dead space. Just doesn't work well at all.
>>and any clan with intercept and the ability to do aggravated strikes can play
Rotshreck.>>
Always a good plan, but requires playing a very specific deck type.
>>Doesn't that pretty much cover all the combat clans?>>
Well, only in the sense that it doesn't. Ok, to look at the various clans:
-Nosferatu: They do just fine with Pot and IG if they wanna fight.
-Brujah: Same as Nosferatu.
-Gangrel: Still have a great deal of trouble vs S:CE, making Gangrel rush
combat not worth playing. The Gangrel are good at doing other stuff, though.
-Tremere: Can deal with S:CE if they are using big vampires or *lots* of skill
cards (for TB). Still not real good at combat, however, as they are counter
screwed by IG.
-Assamites: Have a great deal of trouble vs S:CE. Psyche helps, but not enough.
If they have as many S:CE as you have Psyche, you go nowhere.
-Lasombra/Giovanni: Can make Pot combat decks. Can even make Pot/Dom combat
decks if they wanted. Their vampire selection sucks, so why bother, however?
-All the other clans: They don't really have any mainline combat abilities, so
their ability to make or not make combat decks isn't really at issue--if you
can make a good Ventrue or Malkavian combat deck, more power too you, but I
don't think that it is necessary to make it any easier.
>>i'm not saying i'm not with you, James, because obviously as a combat fiend i
have an axe to grind here, but i really think the necessary tweak is a minor
one, to give the poor old Assamites something of their very own against SCE.>>
The Assamites need something, and the Gangrel really need something effective.
Ok, they don't really need something effective, but if the intention of the
Gangrel was to be good at combat, they weren't real successful.
>>Maybe we don't even need a new card, just a rules clarification to the effect
that First Strike beats SCE and dodge.>>
That might very well be a good idea for a rules change, but there aren't all
that many FS cards as it is, and the ones that exist pretty much suck.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"Isn't it strange, G'Kar? When we first met, I had no power and all the choices
I could ever want.
Now I have all the power I could ever want, and no choice at all."
-Londo
LSJ
> James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hidden Lurker requires co-operation from the person you want to attack,
> > in that they have to block
>
> Hmm, is that really the ruling? If it is, you are right, of course. But
> to me the card is ambiguous: it says "only useable after an acting minion
> has completed combat. Another minion now enters combat with the BLOCKING
> minion."
The actual (action) card text is: "Only usable after another minion you
control has just completed combat. The acting vampire now enters combat
with the blocking minion."
The errata'ed (action modifier) card text is: "Usable only by an untapped
vampire other than the acting minion after the acting minion is blocked
and combat is over.Tap this vampire. This vampire now enters combat with
the blocking minion."
The bit about "after the acting minion is blocked" is really just an
attempt to clarify the point. The point would be true even with the text
you quote because of the following ruling:
Playing Cards
* If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) another card,
then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
[RTR 28-SEP-1998]
--
LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp
legb...@my-deja.com
pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote:
> Legbiter wrote:
> >>i can't think of a clan that doesn't have at least one member with
> inferior pot, so they can all play immortal grapple.>>
>
> Ok, that is just silly. Having a single member of a given clan with Pot does
> not enable a strategy built around Pot and some other wacky discipline. It just
> isn't going to work.
Ooooh .. that sounds awfully like a CHALLENGE to build an effective
combat deck that uses IG out-of-clan ...... hehehe ....
>IG really is only useful with Pot combat--what are the
> Assamites and Tremere going to do with IG?
Er, take out the weenie presence prince who keeps majestying them?
Ok, the Assamites have Kahbar, which
> has a high opportunity cost, and I know Xian made a wacky Tremere IG first
> round so they could get to the second deck, that while funny, seemed sketchy at
> best. IG works very well with Pro, but the smallest Gangrel with Pot is a 6
> (ok, there is Rex, the Necronmicist, who, contrary to popular theory about what
> is physically possible, both sucks *and* blows...).
Hmm, i dunno, Peter. With enough Tastes of Vitae and a few LJs even Rex
might have his uses. Shift the Ankara citadel to him, o no wait you have
to clan impersonate him to Tremere for that ... alright, give him a for
master and Masochism. Wouldn't he be the belle of the undead ball then?
You'd have to pretty much leave out the strikes from a deck containing
him, of course, just torn signpost, IG and Wolf Claws, IR goggles and
Jackie Therman would have to give you most of your manoeuvers. Dam',
running out of straws to clutch at here ... glub glub glub ....
Having Pot on a single
> vampire does not enable a strategy to work. The Tremere have pot on Sabine (5)
> and larger vampires. The Assamites have pot on, umm, Thetmes maybe? The Gangrel
> get Pot on 6 point guys. That is pretty much it.
OK, but i think you are jumping on me for something i didn't say. The
issue is not whether all clans make an equally good base for a dedicated
combat deck. They don't, and nor should they. The issue is whether the
different clans have enough good ways of dealing with SCE. i think it's
closer to being alright than you and james do, clearly!
>
> >>The Tremere have DOM for Thoughts Betrayed,>>
>
> Which is perfectly viable, although a tad expensive and requires DOM--making a
> Tremere Rush deck not particularly workable (due to the need for DOM), but that
> is neither here nor there.
>
> >>the Gangrel have dogpack,>>
>
> Dog Pack is like my cat Yojimbo--very bitey.
Ahah, another Kurosawa fan. If i wasn't allergic to cats mine would be
called Kagemusha.
Expensive, slow, fragile, limited.
> Just not a good card. Ok, it exists, which is better than nothing, but it
> simply isn't good.
But then the Gangrel also have some reasonably-priced blokes[ses] with
pot, and Wynn, and they mostly have for/FOR, and dear little Jimmy and
whatserface the Ventrue, Nakova, that's it. All in all, that makes a
pretty fair combat package! Jon Cooper and William Lee both have good
combat decks based around this kind of idea, and they usually do alright
when they play them in tournaments, though it's fair to add that they've
never actually WON a tournament with THOSE particular decks. In fact,
nobody in the UK has EVER won a tournament with a combat deck except for
William Lee with his Tzimisces.
>
> >>obf clans have Hidden Lurker,>>
>
> Which only works if your prey blocks you. Who is going to block a guy with
> viable combat ability and Obf? Umm, no one?
Yeah, alright, i prolly misinterpreted this card. i thought it meant that
you could hit somebody who you'd rushed and who hadn't blocked you. If
i'm wrong about that, then maybe it would be nice to have a Hidden Lurker
type action modifier/reaction card for which you pay one blood, and then
it works the way i thought the current HL did.
>
> >>aus clans have Fast Reaction>>
>
> Fast Reaction, again, just isn't any good. Takes two vampires to do the work of
> one. Requires having a vampire untapped (or a Wake) to use it. Takes up space
> in your hand that is usually dead space. Just doesn't work well at all.
Hmmm and twice hmmm. i have a thrown-together Tremere deck which deals
out quite a lot of its reasonably-effective harm through this very card.
But again, i'm not claiming, or wanting, complete equality of pain-
dealing opportunity here ... i'm saying that all the clans have SOMETHING
against SCE.
>
> >>and any clan with intercept and the ability to do aggravated strikes can play
> Rotshreck.>>
>
> Always a good plan, but requires playing a very specific deck type.
>
> >>Doesn't that pretty much cover all the combat clans?>>
>
> Well, only in the sense that it doesn't.
Hmmm, hmmm, and thrice hmmm. It does, you know. All the clans DO have
SOMETHING against SCE. Not all the strategies work equally well, we all
agree about that. Good, say i, except that the assamites need something.
Bad, say you and james, and the assamites need something.
Ok, to look at the various clans:
>
> -Nosferatu: They do just fine with Pot and IG if they wanna fight.
> -Brujah: Same as Nosferatu.
> -Gangrel: Still have a great deal of trouble vs S:CE, making Gangrel rush
> combat not worth playing. The Gangrel are good at doing other stuff, though.
> -Tremere: Can deal with S:CE if they are using big vampires or *lots* of skill
> cards (for TB). Still not real good at combat, however, as they are counter
> screwed by IG.
> -Assamites: Have a great deal of trouble vs S:CE. Psyche helps, but not enough.
> If they have as many S:CE as you have Psyche, you go nowhere.
> -Lasombra/Giovanni: Can make Pot combat decks. Can even make Pot/Dom combat
> decks if they wanted. Their vampire selection sucks, so why bother, however?
Cos they are more evil, obviously, and in the case of the Lasombra they
can set range and achieve vote dominance too, if played right. And
because the Giovanni can pull off the Talbot's chainsaw/Ambrosius trick
for permanent combatty harm in the long game.
> -All the other clans: They don't really have any mainline combat abilities, so
> their ability to make or not make combat decks isn't really at issue--if you
> can make a good Ventrue or Malkavian combat deck, more power too you, but I
> don't think that it is necessary to make it any easier.
Agreed.
>
> >>i'm not saying i'm not with you, James, because obviously as a combat fiend i
> have an axe to grind here, but i really think the necessary tweak is a minor
> one, to give the poor old Assamites something of their very own against SCE.>>
>
> The Assamites need something, and the Gangrel really need something effective.
> Ok, they don't really need something effective, but if the intention of the
> Gangrel was to be good at combat, they weren't real successful.
See? We all agree really. Don't you feel yourself simply SUFFUSED with
brotherly/sisterly love when you read little e-spats like this?
>
> >>Maybe we don't even need a new card, just a rules clarification to the effect
> that First Strike beats SCE and dodge.>>
>
> That might very well be a good idea for a rules change, but there aren't all
> that many FS cards as it is, and the ones that exist pretty much suck.
>
> Peter D Bakija
> PD...@aol.com
>
> "Isn't it strange, G'Kar? When we first met, I had no power and all the choices
> I could ever want.
> Now I have all the power I could ever want, and no choice at all."
> -Londo
Just out of interest, Peter, do you play B5 too? Is it any good, do you
think?
Peter D Bakija
>>Ooooh .. that sounds awfully like a CHALLENGE to build an effective
combat deck that uses IG out-of-clan ...... hehehe ....>>
Heh. If only Xian hadn't beaten us all to the punch :-)
>>Er, take out the weenie presence prince who keeps majestying them?>>
Yeah, but only by using hand strikes. I see the point of wanting to use IG with
the Assamites and/or the Tremere to gain some sort of angle, but then you need
to be using hand strikes of Kahbar to hurt someone. If you are doing that, you
might as well just be the Brujah or Nosferatu, and do it much better. What I am
looking for is something that allows the Assamites to fight like Assamites
(with all those cool long ranged spitty/oozy stuff). The Tremere already have
TB, which is good enough (I don't think it really makes the Tremere all combat
viable enough to make a Rush deck, but it isn't that bad, and works fine for
semi-useful intercept combat and/or bruise bleed). I'd like, in theory, to see
the Gangrel get something more useful than Dog Pack--this however, opens up a
huge can of worms--if the Gangrel suddenly become a viable Rush clan, then the
Pot based Rush clans (or at least the Nosferatu :-) become suddenly *very*
outclassed. Hmm. Perhaps we are just better off leaving things as they are...
>>Hmm, i dunno, Peter. With enough Tastes of Vitae and a few LJs even Rex
might have his uses. Shift the Ankara citadel to him, o no wait you have
to clan impersonate him to Tremere for that ... alright, give him a for
master and Masochism. Wouldn't he be the belle of the undead ball then?
You'd have to pretty much leave out the strikes from a deck containing
him, of course, just torn signpost, IG and Wolf Claws, IR goggles and
Jackie Therman would have to give you most of your manoeuvers. Dam',
running out of straws to clutch at here ... glub glub glub ....>>
I always wanted to make hime worthwhile. I mean, he seems like he should be
good for something. He has a cool picture and all...
>>OK, but i think you are jumping on me for something i didn't say. The
issue is not whether all clans make an equally good base for a dedicated
combat deck. They don't, and nor should they. The issue is whether the
different clans have enough good ways of dealing with SCE. i think it's
closer to being alright than you and james do, clearly!>>
Sorray about looking all jumpy like that. From my point, the Assamites need
defenite help. The Tremere could use something a tad more useable than TB. The
Gangrel may or may not need something better than Dog Pack (the more I think
about it, the less I like the idea.)
>>Ahah, another Kurosawa fan. If i wasn't allergic to cats mine would be
called Kagemusha.>>
Heh. Nothing better, I tell you.
>>But then the Gangrel also have some reasonably-priced blokes[ses] with
pot, and Wynn, and they mostly have for/FOR, and dear little Jimmy and
whatserface the Ventrue, Nakova, that's it. All in all, that makes a
pretty fair combat package! Jon Cooper and William Lee both have good
combat decks based around this kind of idea, and they usually do alright
when they play them in tournaments, though it's fair to add that they've
never actually WON a tournament with THOSE particular decks. In fact,
nobody in the UK has EVER won a tournament with a combat deck except for
William Lee with his Tzimisces.>>
Oh, it is do-able (Pot/For or Pot/Pro). I'm sure the various attempts at such
decks of mine are on the web somewhere, just not in a real competetive sense.
You have to base your deck around vampires who cost 6 or so (for Pot/For, you
have Jimmy Dunn, a 4; Badger, Zack, Nakova who are all 6; and bigger guys. This
makes a very slow crypt with not many actions and not much else to do but try
and kill and not having enough vampires or pool to do it). I'm looking at this
in terms of what is an actual, viable Rush deck in a tournament setting. As it
stands, the Assamites, Gangrel, and Tremere can't really pull it off.
>>Yeah, alright, i prolly misinterpreted this card. i thought it meant that
you could hit somebody who you'd rushed and who hadn't blocked you. If
i'm wrong about that, then maybe it would be nice to have a Hidden Lurker
type action modifier/reaction card for which you pay one blood, and then
it works the way i thought the current HL did.>>
Yeah, as it is currently ruled, it just kinda sucks. No one is ever going to
block you, so you will end up ditching them all the time and just wasting slots
in your deck.
>>Hmmm and twice hmmm. i have a thrown-together Tremere deck which deals
out quite a lot of its reasonably-effective harm through this very card.
But again, i'm not claiming, or wanting, complete equality of pain-
dealing opportunity here ... i'm saying that all the clans have SOMETHING
against SCE.>>
I tried the FR in my Aus/Pot/Ani intercept deck, and it never got me anywhere.
I just kept ditching them and saying "Man. How come I can't get this card to
work?". As the Tremere go, again, they are best off with the TB.
>>Hmmm, hmmm, and thrice hmmm. It does, you know. All the clans DO have
SOMETHING against SCE. Not all the strategies work equally well, we all
agree about that. Good, say i, except that the assamites need something.
Bad, say you and james, and the assamites need something.>>
I'm certainly not looking for, say, the Malkavians or Toreador to get anti S:CE
abillity. I guess what myself and James are looking for is soemthing to make
the Assamites work,somthing to make the Tremere competetive, and something
(possibly) to make the Gangrel work as a Rush clan.
>>Cos they are more evil, obviously, and in the case of the Lasombra they
can set range and achieve vote dominance too, if played right. And
because the Giovanni can pull off the Talbot's chainsaw/Ambrosius trick
for permanent combatty harm in the long game.>>
The Giovanni and the Lasombra both have a few useful abilities in ther clan
specific disciplines, but as their vampire selection is so weak, you really are
always better off just using the Brujah or Nosferatu if you want to make a Pot
combat deck. Heck, if you were making a Pot/Dom deck, you could use the Brujah
as a Pot/Pre deck. Hmm. At least the Giovanni and Lasombra can Deflect, though.
>>See? We all agree really. Don't you feel yourself simply SUFFUSED with
brotherly/sisterly love when you read little e-spats like this?>>
Oh, the wallowing in community joy. It makes me feel like such the contributing
member of society. Heh :-)
>>Just out of interest, Peter, do you play B5 too? Is it any good, do you
think?>>
Yup. I think it is a great game (actually, these days, I play it more often
than Jyhad, due to a demographic shift in my gaming group). It has good
mechanics (if you ever played Dune--which I think is pretty much the worst
major CCG ever printed [I don't count Dr. Who as major :-]--the game mechanics
are similar in idea, but B5 actually got it right), good player interaction,
and clever deck design concepts. It isn't perfect by any stretch of the
imagination (it has a few too many "Every deck can use 3 of these Rares, and
the only reason you don't use 3 is cause you don't own them" cards; the most
recent Psi-Corps expansion was kind of a vast strategic bust--the Psi Corps
isn't real good at winning, but it is real good at making someone else lose),
but it is defenitely fun, plays very well out of a single starter, has a good
tournament scene, and a good internet community. Sadly, none of the B5 players
on the net are even close to as cool as ya'll Jyhad folks (in fact, most of
them are kind of wack), but there is a good list serve where the designers
actually answer questions and take input. I'm sure it helps if you are a fan of
the series, but regardless, it is a fun game with a good deal of strategic
depth. That, and it is still in print :-)
James Coupe
Bakija <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes
>The Assamites need something, and the Gangrel really need something effective.
>Ok, they don't really need something effective, but if the intention of the
>Gangrel was to be good at combat, they weren't real successful.
The Gangrel were good at combat, initially. Richard Garfield notes that
they are better than the Brujah, because the Brujah have presence.
Of course, the power of S:CE and the focus onto Immortal Grapple to
counter it wasn't anticipated then. It did take a while for heavy S:CE
and countering it with IG to come into force.
Derek S. Ray
wrote:
>might as well just be the Brujah or Nosferatu, and do it much better. What I am
>looking for is something that allows the Assamites to fight like Assamites
>(with all those cool long ranged spitty/oozy stuff). The Tremere already have
>TB, which is good enough (I don't think it really makes the Tremere all combat
>viable enough to make a Rush deck, but it isn't that bad, and works fine for
The Tremere have other useful disciplines though. You hit on the main
point further down in your post; in this case, Dominate and Auspex
aren't combat disciplines, really, so why should the Tremere be the
guys who run around beating everyone up? Answer: they shouldn't and
aren't. They can make a nasty little intercept-and-burn deck, and a
pretty good bleed-and-burn, but their burn takes up so much space that
Rush ends up being non-viable. Not that I wouldn't like to see
something to make the guys without DOM useful in combat (i mean,
really, Sarah should be a vicious little brute but until she gets a
skill card she's just casting spells at thin air), but they aren't
hurting exactly either.
>semi-useful intercept combat and/or bruise bleed). I'd like, in theory, to see
>the Gangrel get something more useful than Dog Pack--this however, opens up a
>huge can of worms--if the Gangrel suddenly become a viable Rush clan, then the
>Pot based Rush clans (or at least the Nosferatu :-) become suddenly *very*
>outclassed. Hmm. Perhaps we are just better off leaving things as they are...
Well, they still don't bleed worth a damn. ;) Perhaps something for
Protean that matched up to Psyche! for Celerity - that would give them
a good "around" on S:CE and Dodge, but it wouldn't be as powerful as
IG is for Potence. Except the selection of vampires with PRO is
pretty strong - a whole bunch between 3 and 6. Certainly more than a
POT deck has. (Although I think the selection of vampires with CEL is
almost as many. Hmm.)
I think something -does- need to be done though, since they basically
have three combat disciplines: Protean is mostly maneuvers and
damage, Fortitude is ALL about not taking damage, and Animalism is an
all-around support discipline - which is largely combat. Such a clan
SHOULD be the ones running around beating everyone up, but you never
see these decks played because there are too many ways around that
claw. The Potence clans (Brujah, Nosferatu) already do this - and the
Brujah only have two combat disciplines, and the Nossies have 1 1/2
(but can get away with *anything* they want to).
>I always wanted to make hime worthwhile. I mean, he seems like he should be
>good for something. He has a cool picture and all...
Well, they obviously wanted to make a cheap vampire with the 3 most
vicious combat disciplines: potence, protean, and vicissitude. I
suppose so he would fit into any deck like that *reasonably* well.
Then they went and wallpapered him, since what good is he when he
can't play more than 2 cards at a time without going to torpor? Sigh.
I haven't been able to figure out what to do with him either :( He
can't even play IG/Claws without torporizing himself, since it costs
him a total of 3 just to do that one agg hands :( And Torn
Signpost/IG/Undead Strength is quite beyond him.
>Sorray about looking all jumpy like that. From my point, the Assamites need
>defenite help. The Tremere could use something a tad more useable than TB. The
>Gangrel may or may not need something better than Dog Pack (the more I think
>about it, the less I like the idea.)
The Assamites need an IG of their very own, yeah. As it stands, they
MUST include maneuvers to force long range, then they MUST include
strike cards - they end up looking an awful lot like a POT pitch deck,
actually, except if someone catches them they can't even play a "Poked
Gate". (well, really, at close range it's not THROWN, is it?) With
two and a half combat disciplines (QUI/CEL, and a whole bunch have
THA), they really ought to be as feared as they look.
The Tremere I commented above, but specifically: something in THA
that either can't be dodged or can't be S:CE'd, one or the other.
Preferably that can't be S:CE'd - even if they dodge, it at least lets
them cycle those press cards to the next round, which can keep them
from jamming on Walk of Flame and the like.
The Gangrel I commented above as well. Protean version of Psyche!,
only at superior of course.
>>>Hmmm and twice hmmm. i have a thrown-together Tremere deck which deals
>out quite a lot of its reasonably-effective harm through this very card.
>But again, i'm not claiming, or wanting, complete equality of pain-
>dealing opportunity here ... i'm saying that all the clans have SOMETHING
>against SCE.>>
>
>I tried the FR in my Aus/Pot/Ani intercept deck, and it never got me anywhere.
>I just kept ditching them and saying "Man. How come I can't get this card to
>work?". As the Tremere go, again, they are best off with the TB.
You hafta use aggravated-damage equipment to make FR work, from what I
can tell - and a WHOLE bunch of AUS to be sure you catch 'em. FR is
useless for the Tremere since it doesn't do diddly for them in the 2nd
round, which is when they get all their cool stuff.
>I'm certainly not looking for, say, the Malkavians or Toreador to get anti S:CE
>abillity. I guess what myself and James are looking for is soemthing to make
>the Assamites work,somthing to make the Tremere competetive, and something
>(possibly) to make the Gangrel work as a Rush clan.
idle commentary:
Malk: AUS/OBF/DOM, no combat disciplines, it's amazing these guys can
even fight with Rotschreck. =)
Torie: PRE/CEL/AUS, one combat-support discipline, not surprising the
nancy-boys don't want to get their faces messed up and can only use
guns. =)
>The Giovanni and the Lasombra both have a few useful abilities in ther clan
>specific disciplines, but as their vampire selection is so weak, you really are
>always better off just using the Brujah or Nosferatu if you want to make a Pot
>combat deck. Heck, if you were making a Pot/Dom deck, you could use the Brujah
>as a Pot/Pre deck. Hmm. At least the Giovanni and Lasombra can Deflect, though.
Giovanni: POT/DOM/NEC, one combat discipline. No rush here, but
these guys were MADE for Grave Robbing - since it takes two vampires
anyway, the natural pot/DOM and POT/dom splits work out fine. Also
made for Rush, then Amaranth, then Possession to get your guy back.
=) Best if you Minion Tap them first before they make the round-trip
to hell, obviously.
Lasombra: POT/DOM/OBT, one combat discipline with some support from
OBT. Lots of weird vote masters - these guys seem to have been
created for a bruise-and-vote deck that doesn't get caught (OBT for
stealth) and defends votes well, unlike the stock Presence vote decks
which sometimes have a little trouble without the +4 from BO. =)
As far as pot/dom versus pot/pre - POT/pre works much better. Brujah
and !Brujah provide a nice vampire selection, and you get to cut down
on a ton of Rush actions since bleeding with Legal Manipulations
usually gets you blocked. =) the POT/dom vampire selection is kinda
crummy - the cheapest 3 are Anvil, Lisette Vizquel, and Judah, all 6
cap. Only one Lasombra, but at least she has both at superior. The
POT/pre selection is much nicer - Hector Sosa and Hugo, Sela with
POT/PRE, Anvil (has more skills than God). You get more both-inferior
weenies with pot/dom, but I really hate skill cards in this kind of
deck, especially when it'd be nice to put DOM in too. =)
Plus Legal Manipulations gains you a pool if successful, with PRE. ;)
-- Derek
PEACE, n. In international affairs, a period of cheating
between two periods of fighting.
(replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)
legb...@my-deja.com
pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote:
> >>Ooooh .. that sounds awfully like a CHALLENGE to build an effective
> combat deck that uses IG out-of-clan ...... hehehe ....>>
>
> Heh. If only Xian hadn't beaten us all to the punch :-)
>
> >>Er, take out the weenie presence prince who keeps majestying them?>>
>
> Yeah, but only by using hand strikes. I see the point of wanting to use IG with
> the Assamites and/or the Tremere to gain some sort of angle, but then you need
> to be using hand strikes of Kahbar to hurt someone.
Thetmes' hand damage is aggravated, and most Assamite decks will be
packing Blur and Flash which you would obviously be thinking about using
if your victim had any damage prevention possibilities. Then you would
use Julius or Sacrifical Lamb to add injury to insult.
If you are doing that, you
> might as well just be the Brujah or Nosferatu, and do it much better. What I am
> looking for is something that allows the Assamites to fight like Assamites
> (with all those cool long ranged spitty/oozy stuff). The Tremere already have
> TB, which is good enough (I don't think it really makes the Tremere all combat
> viable enough to make a Rush deck, but it isn't that bad, and works fine for
> semi-useful intercept combat and/or bruise bleed). I'd like, in theory, to see
> the Gangrel get something more useful than Dog Pack--this however, opens up a
> huge can of worms--if the Gangrel suddenly become a viable Rush clan, then the
> Pot based Rush clans (or at least the Nosferatu :-) become suddenly *very*
> outclassed. Hmm. Perhaps we are just better off leaving things as they are...
Although i don't have any real data here, i think that if the metagame
suddenly shifted radically to combat, the Tremere, Assamite and Gangrel
versions would suddenly look a whole lot better. The thing about Potence
combat is that currently it is one of only two ways a real combat junkie
can actually compete at tournament level. The other, of course, is
Malkavian out-of-turn rush-combat [actually even better than potence,
because it hoses damage prevention as well as SCE, though it can be
swarmed to death and is terribly vulnerable to contesting]. Both these
strategies unfortunately require you to own LOTS of rares.
Agreed, though as i said above, i think if everyone on a table were
playing a combat deck, the pot guy/gal would be FAR from sure of victory.
>
> >>Yeah, alright, i prolly misinterpreted this card. i thought it meant that
> you could hit somebody who you'd rushed and who hadn't blocked you. If
> i'm wrong about that, then maybe it would be nice to have a Hidden Lurker
> type action modifier/reaction card for which you pay one blood, and then
> it works the way i thought the current HL did.>>
>
> Yeah, as it is currently ruled, it just kinda sucks. No one is ever going to
> block you, so you will end up ditching them all the time and just wasting slots
> in your deck.
>
> >>Hmmm and twice hmmm. i have a thrown-together Tremere deck which deals
> out quite a lot of its reasonably-effective harm through this very card.
> But again, i'm not claiming, or wanting, complete equality of pain-
> dealing opportunity here ... i'm saying that all the clans have SOMETHING
> against SCE.>>
>
> I tried the FR in my Aus/Pot/Ani intercept deck, and it never got me anywhere.
> I just kept ditching them and saying "Man. How come I can't get this card to
> work?". As the Tremere go, again, they are best off with the TB.
You really need Shotgun Ritual in a Tremere combat deck [for the reasons
noted by Derek below] - again a rare, and i only have four. FR, Shotgun
Ritual and unpreventable damage, ideally with additional strikes through
cel is the way i would take it if i had a few more. That means big vamps
and lots of ways of feeding their pool back to you, of course.
>
> >>Hmmm, hmmm, and thrice hmmm. It does, you know. All the clans DO have
> SOMETHING against SCE. Not all the strategies work equally well, we all
> agree about that. Good, say i, except that the assamites need something.
> Bad, say you and james, and the assamites need something.>>
>
> I'm certainly not looking for, say, the Malkavians or Toreador to get anti S:CE
> abillity. I guess what myself and James are looking for is soemthing to make
> the Assamites work,somthing to make the Tremere competetive, and something
> (possibly) to make the Gangrel work as a Rush clan.
>
> >>Cos they are more evil, obviously, and in the case of the Lasombra they
> can set range and achieve vote dominance too, if played right. And
> because the Giovanni can pull off the Talbot's chainsaw/Ambrosius trick
> for permanent combatty harm in the long game.>>
>
> The Giovanni and the Lasombra both have a few useful abilities in ther clan
> specific disciplines, but as their vampire selection is so weak, you really are
> always better off just using the Brujah or Nosferatu if you want to make a Pot
> combat deck. Heck, if you were making a Pot/Dom deck, you could use the Brujah
> as a Pot/Pre deck. Hmm. At least the Giovanni and Lasombra can Deflect, though.
Personally i think it's the lack of damage prevention that lets these
fine, fine clans down. i still think Ambrosius and Talbot's chainsaw is
one of the best ways of getting permanent combat, though.
>
> >>See? We all agree really. Don't you feel yourself simply SUFFUSED with
> brotherly/sisterly love when you read little e-spats like this?>>
>
> Oh, the wallowing in community joy. It makes me feel like such the contributing
> member of society. Heh :-)
>
> >>Just out of interest, Peter, do you play B5 too? Is it any good, do you
> think?>>
>
> Yup. I think it is a great game (actually, these days, I play it more often
> than Jyhad, due to a demographic shift in my gaming group). It has good
> mechanics (if you ever played Dune--which I think is pretty much the worst
> major CCG ever printed [I don't count Dr. Who as major :-]--the game mechanics
> are similar in idea, but B5 actually got it right), good player interaction,
> and clever deck design concepts. It isn't perfect by any stretch of the
> imagination (it has a few too many "Every deck can use 3 of these Rares, and
> the only reason you don't use 3 is cause you don't own them" cards; the most
> recent Psi-Corps expansion was kind of a vast strategic bust--the Psi Corps
> isn't real good at winning, but it is real good at making someone else lose),
> but it is defenitely fun, plays very well out of a single starter, has a good
> tournament scene, and a good internet community. Sadly, none of the B5 players
> on the net are even close to as cool as ya'll Jyhad folks (in fact, most of
> them are kind of wack), but there is a good list serve where the designers
> actually answer questions and take input. I'm sure it helps if you are a fan of
> the series, but regardless, it is a fun game with a good deal of strategic
> depth. That, and it is still in print :-)
>
Interesting! i've seen it played in the shop and formed a fairly negative
impression of it, but part of that may be down to my innate personal
inability to identify with the Good Guys. I must admit i did think long
and hard about getting into the game when the Shadows came out. Maybe if
i can blag some cards off somebody in the shop i'll give it a go.
Peter D Bakija
>>The Tremere have other useful disciplines though. You hit on the main
point further down in your post; in this case, Dominate and Auspex
aren't combat disciplines, really, so why should the Tremere be the
guys who run around beating everyone up? Answer: they shouldn't and
aren't. They can make a nasty little intercept-and-burn deck, and a
pretty good bleed-and-burn, but their burn takes up so much space that
Rush ends up being non-viable. Not that I wouldn't like to see
something to make the guys without DOM useful in combat (i mean,
really, Sarah should be a vicious little brute but until she gets a
skill card she's just casting spells at thin air), but they aren't
hurting exactly either.>>
You are, of course, completely correct. My problem with the Tremere is that I
just don't see them as particularly useful at anything, and if you upped their
combat ability a bit, they might become good.
I see the Tremere and the Toreador as being in pretty much the same boat--they
aren't *really* good at any one thing, and anything they are good at, another
clan does better.
With the Tremere, you have the oprions of Rush combat, Bruise Bleed, or
Intercept Burn. Due to the succeptibility of Thaumaturgy to S:CE, IG, *and* the
need for most of the good cards to be played on the second round (or having a
lot of Shotgun Ritual), their combat ability is sketchy in pretty much any
situation. They can Bruise Bleed, but the Brujah (or even Giovanni/Lasombra)
are going to be better with incredibly similar decks, as Pot is just so much
better at fighting than Tha. Intercept Burn is a questionable tactic in
general, as it takes, like, 33% of your deck being Aus to have reliable enough
intercept so as to be a successful interceptor (assuming your main defense is
intercept, without at least 33% Aus, you aren't going to be able to stop S+B or
any other persistient moderate stealth), which doesn't leave you enough space
for Masters and enough combat to be good at it. Rush is hard, again, due to the
need for DOM as well as THA, meaning you need big vampires or lots of skill
cards, and without a ton of Shotgun Rituals, you aren't going to be able to
reliably torporize someone in any reasonable amount of time.
Will some sort of combat booster card necessarily fix this? Don't know, but it
probably couldn't hurt.
James C
> Granted indeed, but if you want every clan to have a weenie-implementable
> viable rush-combat strategy then you are even more of a combat fiend than
> i am!
This may indeed be the case ;)
The problem is, if you don't have a viable weenie rush tactic,
you don't often have a viable rus htactic at all, if you play against
the wrong decks. Granted, if everyone is playing big decks with
lots of Inner Circle members and big vampires, you are only
going to need to diablerise and rush and things like that once or twice
a term. How would you propose to deal with things like the Legacy of
Pander deck with a rush deck that was fine against 8 capacities,
but which couldn't cope with rushing three times a turn?
Not all rush decks need to rush three times a turn, of course. Some
of them combine things like bleed and vote with them, to make them
more formidable and less vulnerable to such problems - as has been
demonstrated by your decks at GenCon and, it would seem, the October
Portsmouth event. But if you want to play a rush deck, there are
plenty of
"combat" clans (in that it seems they were well placed initially to do
well in
combat, except that someone didn't realise just how prevalent Earth
Meld
and Majest would become.
How would you prpose to make a tournament viable Tremere rush deck?
They *should* be good at rushing. They have thaumaturgy for some very
powerful stri kes, but they can't deal with S:CE, most of the time -
having
to spend disciplines on DOM, when you would really rather have THA for
the extra ability to hit out is difficult - especially if you also need
to
use Shotgun Rituals to hit out with - plenty lots of blood needed there
:(
> Also you clipped my first point: all clans have somebody, usually
> reasonably cheap, with pot; so all of them CAN make use of IG.
True, but that's like saying the Toreador can make a viable Chimerstry
deck, based on Francois Villon.
> > Fast Reaction requires you to be playing blocking tactics, and requires
> > two minions for one combat, and they have to act with the vampire you
> > want to attack
>
> OK, but block-combat is quite sweet.
It can be. It's not something I like, though, most of the time.
HAving to
rely on them to come to you with their vampires is annoying.
I want to *kill* your copy of Arika, because she's pissing me off
royally.
However, Arika is your vote babe, just sitting there to kill votes (and
my
locations, like a copy of Elysium to contest) - how do I deal with her?
I
can't *really* afford a reliable number of rush cards in the deck -
my interc ept and wakes take that away :(
> A predator and prey who are rightly
> afraid to take any actions at all [except for the prey bleeding your
> grand-prey] is a nice step towards winning the game.
It's a step, yes. But you can't win if they're just sitting there
You want them dead - if they stop acting, they will be - but you can't
really hasten the process :(
> i agree that it is
> better to be pro-active, however.
*nods*
> >
> > Rotschreck restricts you to one per turn, and a single SR will kill it.
> > (DI will kill one IG, but you can play another - you can't play another
> > Rotschreck) Also, how would you propose for, say, a Toreador gun deck
> > to get repeatable aggro damage, without resorting to burning its own
> > guns?
>
> Apart from Ivory Bow and Flamethrowers, you mean?
Ivory Bow is a unique weapon - that compounds the one per turn thing
even further. Flamethrower is 4 pool!
> i think where we are
> disagreeing here is on the desirability of ALL clans being as combat-hot
> as the potence lads n lasses and the Assamites.
Not *all* clans, just the ones who are clearly supposed to be good at
combat
but shafted by the prevalence of S:CE. The Tzimisce find S:CE
difficult to deal with
As you noted earlier, you need to be able to do *something* against
weenies.
If you're ahving to send two vampires in with a Fast Raction, you don't
have
enough combat to do anything with. How amny vampires are you likely to
get out?
Also, I would scarcely consider the Assmites currently viable in
combat.
Merely my opinion, and all, but it's how it seems. They can maneuver,
yes.
They can strike well, yes. They can't do anythingto get themselves
blocked though. They lack big hard actions - things like a Govern the
Unaligned
or a Legal Manipulations, to make it worth your while blocking them, so
you can
smack with a Hidden Lurker, perhaps. They also can't do much against
S:CE.
> i think all clans need
> SOMETHING against SCE. i think they have it right now. The gangrel have a
> couple of medium-sized pot/pro's so they are ok,
Zack North, Basilia and Wynn are the major ones. The 8 capacity
stepping out of the water (Quentin something?) may have it, or I may
be getting his +1 HD confused - this sounds quite likely. Does Bear
Paw?
It's a possibility. It would be nice, though if the Gangrel could
fight on their own
terms - with Protean, Animalism and Fortitude. They have a few nice
strikes
(Scorpion Sting is lovely, I always think) and so forth, but they just
can't
stop the S:CEs, without Dog Pack, which is damn expensives :(
> i don't think it's desirable that the prancing nancy
> boys n gals in the statue-hugging clique should be able to face off
> against REAL men and women without worrying about getting their beautiful
> heads ripped off and thrown in the nearest dumpster.
true, true. However, the ability to defned oneself is not the issue.
The Toreador might get their heads ripped off if they're
particularly unlucky, but then so would two Brujah decks facing off.
That the Toreador can't actually rip other people's heads off is awkays.
> >
> Some of the other clans is the key phrase here, and i certainly agree
> with it. And Ignatius CAN steal my blood, if he gets DOM/THA, given
> enough Thoughts Betrayed, fake-outs/apportations, IR goggles and presses.
Igantius could be got out first turn (4 capacity). Then two turns to
get the Master cards. So it's the third turn before you can even
attack with
him. Not fun against, say, a weenie deck. If you need three turns to
set up
you die.
> i'm cool with that. He is an undead sorcerer's apprentice, not the full
> thing, and he needs a bit of tuition first ["truly, gravehopper, you have
> much to learn!"].
Yet Hasina Kesi, who is a quarter of his capacity, is quite capable of
teraring you apart, ripping your arms off and then eating your head.
> But for me the serious combat ought to come from the
> Assamites, Brujah and nossies, gangrel, big Tremere and most of the
> sabbat.
I see very little combat coming from the Big Tremere. It should also
be coming from the Tzimisce, given that a ot of their fleshcrafintg
type stuff was given to combat cards.
> Largely this IS the current situation, except that the Assamites
> have a hard time dealing with anybody who is not also combat-oriented
A crying shame. They deserve to be able to kill. One might hope
that a no-Dodge, no-S:CE card might be given to those with Contracts
out (say, to complement the Khabar Honor, and so forth).
James Coupe
(apologies for the typing - I'm using Talkway via a very
bad keyboard :( )
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
legb...@my-deja.com
"James C" <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:52:50 GMT legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Granted indeed, but if you want every clan to have a weenie-implementable
> > viable rush-combat strategy then you are even more of a combat fiend than
> > i am!
>
> This may indeed be the case ;)
>
> The problem is, if you don't have a viable weenie rush tactic,
> you don't often have a viable rus htactic at all, if you play against
> the wrong decks. Granted, if everyone is playing big decks with
> lots of Inner Circle members and big vampires, you are only
> going to need to diablerise and rush and things like that once or twice
> a term. How would you propose to deal with things like the Legacy of
> Pander deck with a rush deck that was fine against 8 capacities,
> but which couldn't cope with rushing three times a turn?
Freak Drives, Rutor's hand, Atonement, Precognizant mobility - the
combination would depend on which clans you were using. but definitely
Freak Drive would be my choice, as it was for 2 of the three combat decks
that made it to the Portsmouth final. Sid's, incidentally, was a Ventrue
combat deck - spooky!
>
> Not all rush decks need to rush three times a turn, of course. Some
> of them combine things like bleed and vote with them, to make them
> more formidable and less vulnerable to such problems - as has been
> demonstrated by your decks at GenCon and, it would seem, the October
> Portsmouth event. But if you want to play a rush deck, there are
> plenty of
> "combat" clans (in that it seems they were well placed initially to do
> well in
> combat, except that someone didn't realise just how prevalent Earth
> Meld
> and Majest would become.
>
> How would you prpose to make a tournament viable Tremere rush deck?
> They *should* be good at rushing. They have thaumaturgy for some very
> powerful stri kes, but they can't deal with S:CE, most of the time -
> having
> to spend disciplines on DOM, when you would really rather have THA for
> the extra ability to hit out is difficult - especially if you also need
> to
> use Shotgun Rituals to hit out with - plenty lots of blood needed there
> :(
<laughs quietly> i'm really not sure that Tremere rush or, for that
matter, Tremere ANYTHING is particularly tournament-viable AT THE MOMENT.
But i remember that one of the Straits had a good on-line deck which used
Talbot's chainsaw to rush and get to second round, followed by the usual
second round beastliness. The Chantry was how he paid for the chainsaw's
damage. However i should add that i did think long and hard about jumping
ahead of the metagame after gencon and fielding a Tremere or Assamite/
Tremere unpreventable ranged-damage rush-combat deck last Saturday.
Unfortunately attending to the needs of my Brides, Childe, Departmental
Colleagues and research team used up ALL my deck-constructing time, so i
didn't.
>
> > Also you clipped my first point: all clans have somebody, usually
> > reasonably cheap, with pot; so all of them CAN make use of IG.
>
> True, but that's like saying the Toreador can make a viable Chimerstry
> deck, based on Francois Villon.
Well, Mass Reality WOULD be a boon to the Toreador - arguably more so
than to the Ravnos, given the Tories' better intercept. i do believe that
a Thetmes Potence[IG]-Rush deck might be a bit on the good side. It would
have all the usual problems of decks that rely too heavily on one
vampire, of course.
>
> > > Fast Reaction requires you to be playing blocking tactics, and requires
> > > two minions for one combat, and they have to act with the vampire you
> > > want to attack
> >
> > OK, but block-combat is quite sweet.
>
> It can be. It's not something I like, though, most of the time.
> HAving to
> rely on them to come to you with their vampires is annoying.
> I want to *kill* your copy of Arika, because she's pissing me off
> royally.
> However, Arika is your vote babe, just sitting there to kill votes (and
> my
> locations, like a copy of Elysium to contest) - how do I deal with her?
> I
> can't *really* afford a reliable number of rush cards in the deck -
> my interc ept and wakes take that away :(
Multiple actions is always the answer, it seems to me. In an intercept
deck you do NOT want to be waiting around for people to do stuff, so you
should be all-out hammering your prey during your turn, and all out
hammering your predator via wakes and intercept during their turn. But i
understand the point you are making - this strategy puts you at SERIOUS
risk of hand-jamming to death. Actually this regularly happens to John
Eagles who has a very strong Tzimisce deck. But when the cards don't
flow, the deck just blow.
>
> > A predator and prey who are rightly
> > afraid to take any actions at all [except for the prey bleeding your
> > grand-prey] is a nice step towards winning the game.
>
> It's a step, yes. But you can't win if they're just sitting there
> You want them dead - if they stop acting, they will be - but you can't
> really hasten the process :(
Yep, it is tricky. But great to see, when a Tzimisce deck is on song.
Unless you are on the same table as it, of course.
>
> > i agree that it is
> > better to be pro-active, however.
>
> *nods*
>
> > >
> > > Rotschreck restricts you to one per turn, and a single SR will kill it.
> > > (DI will kill one IG, but you can play another - you can't play another
> > > Rotschreck) Also, how would you propose for, say, a Toreador gun deck
> > > to get repeatable aggro damage, without resorting to burning its own
> > > guns?
> >
> > Apart from Ivory Bow and Flamethrowers, you mean?
>
> Ivory Bow is a unique weapon - that compounds the one per turn thing
> even further. Flamethrower is 4 pool!
OK, but Toreador vote and presence-bleed should soup you up for the guns.
You have Heidelberg to share out the armoury, and Psyche to bugger up the
calculations of the guy or gal who is just blowing a sigh of relief at
having seen you off with his/her last majesty. Anyway, i just wanted to
point out that there ARE permanent sources of ranged agg damage.
> > i think where we are
> > disagreeing here is on the desirability of ALL clans being as combat-hot
> > as the potence lads n lasses and the Assamites.
>
> Not *all* clans, just the ones who are clearly supposed to be good at
> combat
> but shafted by the prevalence of S:CE. The Tzimisce find S:CE
> difficult to deal with
> As you noted earlier, you need to be able to do *something* against
> weenies.
> If you're ahving to send two vampires in with a Fast Raction, you don't
> have
> enough combat to do anything with. How amny vampires are you likely to
> get out?
Depends on your wakefulness, this one. Animalism clans can cycle wakey
cards better than those without, but that only works if you are being
bled.
>
> Also, I would scarcely consider the Assmites currently viable in
> combat.
> Merely my opinion, and all, but it's how it seems. They can maneuver,
> yes.
> They can strike well, yes. They can't do anythingto get themselves
> blocked though. They lack big hard actions - things like a Govern the
> Unaligned
> or a Legal Manipulations, to make it worth your while blocking them, so
> you can
> smack with a Hidden Lurker, perhaps. They also can't do much against
> S:CE.
OK, we all agree that the Assamites need help. And yet i wonder. In a
straight combat/combat fight the Assamites are REALLY good - go long,
stay long, kill you. i think if [or as many of us hope, as] the metagame
shifts to combat they may suddenly get better all by their little rag-
headed selves.
>
> > i think all clans need
> > SOMETHING against SCE. i think they have it right now. The gangrel have a
> > couple of medium-sized pot/pro's so they are ok,
>
> Zack North, Basilia and Wynn are the major ones. The 8 capacity
> stepping out of the water (Quentin something?) may have it, or I may
> be getting his +1 HD confused - this sounds quite likely. Does Bear
> Paw?
Badger
> It's a possibility.
i'll try to get Rob to post his combat deck from last saturday. Basically
it was those guys plus Beast and Lazverinus. It was a SMASHING deck, and
was VERY close to winning the tournament. pot, for, pro, bit of dom was
Rob's choice.
This is a matter of taste ["yummee! delicious cheeks!"]. Hasina is brawn
and Ignatius is brain, and i don't think it's seemly for the
intellectuals to be rough-housing with the stevedores. Instead, they
should be embezzling their pension funds and shagging their wives while
the Horny-handed sons of toil, erm, toil; then running away or making a
plausible excuse when the said HHSOTs unexpectedly return from the
foundry or whatever.
>
> > But for me the serious combat ought to come from the
> > Assamites, Brujah and nossies, gangrel, big Tremere and most of the
> > sabbat.
>
> I see very little combat coming from the Big Tremere.
o they ARE good. Probably not tournament viable, but hurty enough in the
right environment.
It should also
> be coming from the Tzimisce, given that a ot of their fleshcrafintg
> type stuff was given to combat cards.
i think the Tzimisce are ok. Will won in April [?i think] with a Tzimisce
deck. i think their mix is just about alright.
>
> > Largely this IS the current situation, except that the Assamites
> > have a hard time dealing with anybody who is not also combat-oriented
>
> A crying shame. They deserve to be able to kill. One might hope
> that a no-Dodge, no-S:CE card might be given to those with Contracts
> out (say, to complement the Khabar Honor, and so forth).
Or some kind of Assamite-specific retainer.
>
> James Coupe
>
> (apologies for the typing - I'm using Talkway via a very
> bad keyboard :( )
> --
Cheapskate Cambridge Uni, eh? Are you coming down for November 6th?
Fish Flowers
> > OK, but block-combat is quite sweet.
>
> It can be. It's not something I like, though, most of the time.
> Having to rely on them to come to you with their vampires is annoying.
> I want to *kill* your copy of Arika, because she's pissing me off
> royally. However, Arika is your vote babe, just sitting there to kill
> votes (and my locations, like a copy of Elysium to contest) - how do
> I deal with her?
If all Arika is doing is maintaining vote dominance and using her special
ability, your predator/prey has just 'wasted' some 8 pool and a whole
bunch of transfers. If someone has Arika out they probably won't be able
to afford very many other vampires (barring some bizarre pool gain
tactics), and they'll be fatally short minions.
And the classic pool-gain tactics (Minion Tap combined with 5th Trad/Voter
Cap/Festivo/Giant's Blood) generally require actions, generally at +0 or
+1 stealth alone. If their deck relies upon Minion Tapping Arika and then
using 5th trad to refill her, you block the 5th trad actions and zap that
vampire.
> Ivory Bow is a unique weapon - that compounds the one per turn thing
> even further. Flamethrower is 4 pool!
Use Heidelburg Castle if you're so dedicated to using the Ivory Bow more
than once a turn. Granted, it'll only allow you to use it twice a turn,
and it itself costs two pool, but we can't have everything.
Fish Flowers.
Fish Flowers
> Depends on your wakefulness, this one. Animalism clans can cycle wakey
> cards better than those without, but that only works if you are being
> bled.
Not necessarily. I've built Tzimisce intercept decks which rely on Forced
Awakening for wakey and Cat's for re-wakey. Works well. (Especially when
you're more worried about them stealing pool off of your four Powerbases
than you are worried about them bleeding you...)
Fish Flowers.
tzimisce always get hand jam. hate that.