Why doesn´t Nagaraja get any good clan cards?
Ashur
awesome?
This far we have:
Consume the Dead [LoB:R]
Cardtype: Action/Reaction
Clan: Nagaraja
Burn Option
[ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or
burn a wraith retainer.
[REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by
any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped
Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This
Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood,
where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
Emergency Rations [LoB:R]
Cardtype: Action
Clan: Nagaraja
+1 stealth action.
Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from
the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap
phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full
capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one
Emergency Rations.
Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R]
Cardtype: Equipment
Clan: Nagaraja
Burn Option
Unique equipment.
If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional
blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal
(ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action.
None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. Compared with
the cards for Trujahs and Salubri they are shit.
Vincent
Emergency Rations are good. But the Nagaraja clan is really a support
clan, so you won't play more than 1 (therefore any Nagaraja card is a
bit useless).
Jozxyqk
> Consume the Dead [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Action/Reaction
> Clan: Nagaraja
> Burn Option
> [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or
> burn a wraith retainer.
> [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by
> any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped
> Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This
> Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood,
> where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
Shambling Hordes cost 3 blood.
Gain 4 blood when they burn.
Profit!
Just add Unmasking!
It isn't bad...
Peter D Bakija
> Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so
> awesome?
They do usually have good special abilities. Which may be why their
clan specific cards aren't as super awesome as others. But they are
also better than you seem to imagine.
> Consume the Dead [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Action/Reaction
> Clan: Nagaraja
> Burn Option
> [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or
> burn a wraith retainer.
> [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by
> any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped
> Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This
> Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood,
> where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
When the Shambling Hordes you made with your NEC get killed blocking,
you play this and get 4 blood back? How is this bad?
> Emergency Rations [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Action
> Clan: Nagaraja
> +1 stealth action.
> Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from
> the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap
> phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full
> capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one
> Emergency Rations.
When you have an ash heap full of start up allies for your Shambling
Hordes, you can get full of blood? A bit less handy than Consume the
Dead in general, but hardly bad.
> Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R]
> Cardtype: Equipment
> Clan: Nagaraja
> Burn Option
> Unique equipment.
> If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional
> blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal
> (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action.
Do you *not* see Carleton Van Wyk in every single game you play? How
is being able to hit him for 1 damage and gain 2 blood (and make his
block fail) not a good idea? It is free. It has a totally reasonable
default ability. It hoses the Imbued and Carleton. Seems completely
solid.
> None of these cards are playable in any decent decks.
Yeah, I dunno about that. Shambling Horde decks are "decent" decks.
Many "decent" decks can use a way to deal with Carleton.
-Peter
floppyzedolfin
Revelations, Govern the Unaligned, Seduction, Call of the Hungry Dead,
Conditioning.
How could this not be good enough?
Ashur
> On Jun 3, 2:38 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so
> > awesome?
>
> They do usually have good special abilities. Which may be why their
> clan specific cards aren't as super awesome as others. But they are
> also better than you seem to imagine.
No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t
that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials
maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use.
Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll? They still can´t make anything
worth critizing huh?
> > Consume the Dead [LoB:R]
> > Cardtype: Action/Reaction
> > Clan: Nagaraja
> > Burn Option
> > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or
> > burn a wraith retainer.
> > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by
> > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped
> > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This
> > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood,
> > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
>
> When the Shambling Hordes you made with your NEC get killed blocking,
> you play this and get 4 blood back? How is this bad?
Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck.
> > Emergency Rations [LoB:R]
> > Cardtype: Action
> > Clan: Nagaraja
> > +1 stealth action.
> > Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from
> > the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap
> > phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full
> > capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one
> > Emergency Rations.
>
> When you have an ash heap full of start up allies for your Shambling
> Hordes, you can get full of blood? A bit less handy than Consume the
> Dead in general, but hardly bad.
See above. Haven´t seen it in any good deck.
> > Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R]
> > Cardtype: Equipment
> > Clan: Nagaraja
> > Burn Option
> > Unique equipment.
> > If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional
> > blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal
> > (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action.
>
> Do you *not* see Carleton Van Wyk in every single game you play? How
> is being able to hit him for 1 damage and gain 2 blood (and make his
> block fail) not a good idea? It is free. It has a totally reasonable
> default ability. It hoses the Imbued and Carleton. Seems completely
> solid.
What deck would I play this in? Giovanni S&B w Le Dinh Tho? I don´t
think so. If it worked on any ally it would have been another thing.
> > None of these cards are playable in any decent decks.
>
> Yeah, I dunno about that. Shambling Horde decks are "decent" decks.
> Many "decent" decks can use a way to deal with Carleton.
Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back
to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards.
Ashur
I meant the clan cards. The cards with the Nagaraja symbol to the left
of the illustration. The cards that require a Nagaraja in play to
play. Do you understand?
Meej
You do recognize, right, that there's something called balance?
Assamites have some kickass clan cards both for story reasons (clan is
important) and mechanical reasons (their disciplines are...
lackluster).
Nagaraja have few and poor clan cards both for story reasons (small,
not clan-focused, few advantages) and mechanical reasons (their
discipline spread is pretty darn strong).
Or do you need a more jackass-ish response, since that's the debate
style you seem to prefer? I can try that, if you want - do you not
understand the game concept of balance? Are you still on the WW-
bashing payroll? Wow. Nothing they make is good enough for you, is
it?
- D.J.
Peter D Bakija
> No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t
> that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials
> maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use.
They Dom/Aus/Nec. Which is a very good discipline spread and fits in
lots of decks. They a lot of good special abilities--Jozz has a great
one; Vejay isn't brilliant, but still not bad a for a 3 cap with AUS;
Prejudice's doesn't come up much, but when it does, it is gold;
Aguresh has weird disciplines but a very good special; Anu gives all
of your minions +1 bleed; Kanimana has great disciplines and a gold
special. What isn't to like?
> Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll?
Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money.
> They still can´t make anything worth critizing huh?
Well considering how you seem to be incapable of doing anything other
than bitch about things that seem mostly irrelevant, apparently they
can. Why do you even play this game?
> Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck.
If you are using the Nagaraja (who have NEC/DOM, just like the
Giovanni) to get your hordes, why would you *not* use this card? I
mean, I'm not using 10 or anything, but every time I build a Hordes
deck, it has a few Le Din Tho and one of these in it. And it pays off.
> See above. Haven´t seen it in any good deck.
Considering how much you hate everything in this game, have you ever
even *seen* a good deck?
> What deck would I play this in?
A deck that has a few Nagaraja in it. Whatever deck that is. Mixed
into Shambling Hordes Giovanni. Maybe mixed in with the HoS for a
Trochomancy deck. The Imbued and Carleton are both not uncommon mortal
allies. Carleton reliably shows up in pretty much every game I ever
play these days.
> Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back
> to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards.
Ok? The Salubri get Path of Tears, Sight Beyond Sight, and Journal of
Hrosh. Path of Tears is difficult to use (as you need to have it in
hand when you play the guy) and doesn't do much (the 3 pool savings is
nice, but a Villein is just as good and more likely to pay off) and
can be burned. Woo. Sight Beyond Sight is fine, but something you can
get in any number of ways. Journal of Hrosh is funny and possibly
effective. None of these cards are bad, but none of them are earth
shattering either. The Trujah get Path of the Scorched Heart (which is
pretty good), Tabriz Assembly (also pretty good), and Vaticination
(not horrible). None of these, however, are mind numbingly better than
Consume the Dead ("gain 4 blood on a tapped minion when the ally that
your are building and fighting with anyway blocks something") or
Ritual Scalpel. And yeah, Temporis and Obtenebration have good cards.
So do Dominate and Auspex.
-Peter
Jeff Kuta
> On Jun 3, 3:53 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t
> > that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials
> > maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use.
>
> They Dom/Aus/Nec. Which is a very good discipline spread and fits in
> lots of decks. They a lot of good special abilities--Jozz has a great
> one; Vejay isn't brilliant, but still not bad a for a 3 cap with AUS;
> Prejudice's doesn't come up much, but when it does, it is gold;
> Aguresh has weird disciplines but a very good special; Anu gives all
> of your minions +1 bleed; Kanimana has great disciplines and a gold
> special. What isn't to like?
The fact that they have crappy clan cards. :)
> > Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck.
>
> If you are using the Nagaraja (who have NEC/DOM, just like the
> Giovanni) to get your hordes, why would you *not* use this card? I
> mean, I'm not using 10 or anything, but every time I build a Hordes
> deck, it has a few Le Din Tho and one of these in it. And it pays off.
Ashur's argument is poor, but the real reason you don't use that card
in any Hordes decks is because the ashed hordes are removed from the
game! This prohibits you from using the dead horde to make more
hordes! Major fail with this card.
> > What deck would I play this in?
>
> A deck that has a few Nagaraja in it. Whatever deck that is. Mixed
> into Shambling Hordes Giovanni. Maybe mixed in with the HoS for a
> Trochomancy deck. The Imbued and Carleton are both not uncommon mortal
> allies. Carleton reliably shows up in pretty much every game I ever
> play these days.
>
> > Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back
> > to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards.
>
> Ok? The Salubri get Path of Tears, Sight Beyond Sight, and Journal of
> Hrosh. Path of Tears is difficult to use (as you need to have it in
> hand when you play the guy) and doesn't do much (the 3 pool savings is
> nice, but a Villein is just as good and more likely to pay off) and
> can be burned. Woo. Sight Beyond Sight is fine, but something you can
> get in any number of ways. Journal of Hrosh is funny and possibly
> effective. None of these cards are bad, but none of them are earth
> shattering either. The Trujah get Path of the Scorched Heart (which is
> pretty good), Tabriz Assembly (also pretty good), and Vaticination
> (not horrible). None of these, however, are mind numbingly better than
> Consume the Dead ("gain 4 blood on a tapped minion when the ally that
> your are building and fighting with anyway blocks something") or
> Ritual Scalpel. And yeah, Temporis and Obtenebration have good cards.
> So do Dominate and Auspex.
Thing is, you'd have to build a deck around any of the Nagaraja cards
to make them even sort of useful. Consume the Dead requires another
card in play to be useful--another Methuselah's wraith or
Jeff Kuta
(stupid keyboard)
...or a minion being burnt (doesn't happen all the time) and you need
the card in hand when the event occurs.
Emergency Rations also requires the presence of a mortal in someone's
ash heap. The Ritual Scalpel is possibly the best of the lot. It's
really a glorified Aaron's Feeding Razor. Perhaps if an additional
stealth were awarded, or an untap after hunting, or something decent
it might see play.
Tabriz Assembly just rocks. All you need is a ready Trujah to play it.
Same with Vaticination which gives HUGE information to you, AT THREE
STEALTH! The Path of True Heart is kinda meh, but if you're playing
combat Trujah, it can be worthwhile.
For the Salubri, Path of Tears is not great because it needs to be in
hand when the event occurs. I have never played with the Journal of
Hrorsh, but at least it doesn't require anything else other than the
Salubri who owns it to successfully act. And Sight Beyond Sight is
good and doesn't require anything special to use it.
And we all know how much Temporis and particularly Obeah rock.
So I totally agree with Ashur. Nagaraja clan cards totally suck. They
need to get something really darn good to make them playable next set.
I kind of think of the Nagaraja as the Ventrue antitribu of the scarce
world. !Ventrue used to be pretty horrible until they got good
discplines and better cards for Auspex. Just because the Nagaraja can
bleed a bit doesn't make them good.
Jeff
Jeff Kuta
Aside from Le Dinh Tho, he of the incredible special ability, the
other Nagaraja have only made spot appearances in the TWDA. It's not
good enough.
Jeff
Peter D Bakija
> Ashur's argument is poor, but the real reason you don't use that card
> in any Hordes decks is because the ashed hordes are removed from the
> game! This prohibits you from using the dead horde to make more
> hordes! Major fail with this card.
Losing 1 horde to the RFG pile to refill Le Din Tho (who gets -1
stealth when hunting...) is a totally reasonable price to pay for a
strong effect. As noted, I'm not gonna use 10 of them. But 1 is
totally solid.
> Thing is, you'd have to build a deck around any of the Nagaraja cards
> to make them even sort of useful.
I dunno. Consume the Dead (in limited numbers) is totally reasonable a
deck where you are already putting allies into play and already
blocking things with them (see: Shambling Hordes). Ritual Scalpel has
much less opportunity cost than an ally specific killing card, and is
good in many situations (see: Imbued and Carleton). Are they the best
cards in the world? Of course not. But they are worth using in the
appropriate decks.
-Peter
Kushiel
> Aside from Le Dinh Tho, he of the incredible special ability, the
> other Nagaraja have only made spot appearances in the TWDA.
That's almost certainly due to the amazing stupidity of the scarce
rule, rather than the lack of good clan cards.
John Eno
Peter D Bakija
> That's almost certainly due to the amazing stupidity of the scarce
> rule, rather than the lack of good clan cards.
Because the Nagaraja don't have any new disciplines *and* they are
scarce, there is zero incentive to build Nagaraja focused decks like
there are Salubri or Trujah focused decks. They have new disciplines
that do crazy stuff, so people make "Salubri" decks (or more
realistically "Matthias" or "Saulot" decks) and "Trujah" decks. People
don't do that with the Nagaraja. As they have mundane disciplines. You
can get Nec/Dom with the Giovanni or Aus/Dom with the Tremere. So
pretty much anything you are going to do with just the Nagaraja, you
are going to do more effectively with a non scarce clan and not have
to worry about scarcity issues. But the Nagaraja show up all the time
as a support clan (Le DIn Tho and Sennadurek most often for obvious
reasons).
No one is building Salubri or Trujah decks 'cause of their 3 clan
specific cards either.
-Peter
Haze
funny how Nagaraja show up in more TWDA decks than True Brujah and
Salubri combined.
Demnogonis Saastuttaja
use Consume the Dead and Emergency Rations a lot for bloat (which
won't be that nice due to scarce cost, but it's bloat).
What'll probably happen is that in the end it will have only one
Nagaraja and support from other clans, though, the scarce price is
obviously too high to pay for any reason other than for the lulz.
suoli
> Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so
> awesome?
It's because they're a clan of individual supporting vampires, sort of
like Abominations. You might as well ask why there aren't any cards
specific to 3-caps with AUS.
Jeff Kuta
Peter, you raise a great point. Because True Brujah, Salubri and
Nagaraja are scarce, that drawbacks need to be mitigated somewhat. It
seems to me that Temporis and Obeah are stronger disciplines to
balance the scarce drawback. However, the Nagaraja have no such
balancing factor. True, they do have access to two very strong
disciplines (AUS/DOM) and one decent support discipline (NEC), but on
the whole I don't think those make up for their lack of other
"goodies."
So yeah, give 'em one really kick ass clan card next set and we'll
quit bitching. :)
Jeff
librarian
Which is probably why this is coming up now - with the Battlelines rules,
people are looking again to see if the Nag's can work as a coherent clan.
Then they see that really, they have teh suck clan cards, and throw up
their hands - nothing new to do with them. Either you can run them as
either Powerbleed or Shamblers, Nagaraja style for Battlelines. But
nothing new, because a) they don't have their own discipline, and b) they
don't have "good" clan cards, just average clan cards.
best -
chris
RoddPrime
You can spin it however you like really. Nagaraja are decent as a
singular vamp supporting a different crypt. Again, this is part of the
whole Scarce thing. As far as in clan stuff they are not that great at
all, esp. compared to fellow bloodline members. However, I would never
make an all Nagaraja crypt due to 1) Scarce, and 2) They will never be
Tier 1. To be quite honest I don't typically aspire anymore to build
anything other than Tier 1 decks (90% of the time anyway) and I will
look their way for support to my other decks. In that regard they are
not bad.
Peter D Bakija
> Peter, you raise a great point. Because True Brujah, Salubri and
> Nagaraja are scarce, that drawbacks need to be mitigated somewhat. It
> seems to me that Temporis and Obeah are stronger disciplines to
> balance the scarce drawback. However, the Nagaraja have no such
> balancing factor. True, they do have access to two very strong
> disciplines (AUS/DOM) and one decent support discipline (NEC), but on
> the whole I don't think those make up for their lack of other
> "goodies."
Maybe? The Nagaraja show up a lot in tournament winning decks. Well,
by "Nagaraja", I mean "Le Dinh Tho", but Sennadurek and Kanimana show
up a bunch as well. But simply 'cause they don't have their own
discipline, there isn't really a reason to make a deck out of them.
Which strikes me as fine, as the intention of Sacrce vampires is,
generally speaking, for them to be support vampires rather than the
focus of a deck. Which is what the Nagaraja are.
> So yeah, give 'em one really kick ass clan card next set and we'll
> quit bitching. :)
I mean, I wouldn't pooh-pooh some sort of super cool Nagaraja card or
anything. But the ones they have already are totally reasonable and
thematically appropriate. I mean, again, no one is going to burn up
the NAC with Death Eater or anything, but it is a totally playable and
useful card.
-Peter
Malone
> > So yeah, give 'em one really kick ass clan card next set and we'll
> > quit bitching. :)
> I mean, I wouldn't pooh-pooh some sort of super cool Nagaraja card or
> anything. But the ones they have already are totally reasonable and
> thematically appropriate. I mean, again, no one is going to burn up
> the NAC with Death Eater or anything, but it is a totally playable and
> useful card.
Death Eater is a Harbingers card and it is ass. But I agree with you,
that those Nagaraja Cards that are kind of like Death Eater but better
are playable but not great.
What would a kick-ass Nagaraja card be like?
Unnatural Tribute
Master, Trifle, requires Nagaraja
Place this card on a ready Nagaraja you control. You may use a
discard phase action to move this card from to your hand and move two
blood from this Nagaraja to your pool.
Morsel of Flesh
1 blood, requires Nagaraja
Burn this card during your untap phase.
[action modifier] Only usable when a bleed action is declared. Place
this card on this acting vampire. When a bleed is successful, this
Nagaraja may burn this card for +1 bleed.
[combat] Place this card on this vampire before range is determined on
a round of combat. The Nagaraja with this card has +2 strength.
(worded so as to thwart Mata Hari)
Malone
> > the NAC with Death Eater or anything, but it is a totally playable and
> > useful card.
>
> Death Eater is a Harbingers card and it is ass. But I agree with you,
> that those Nagaraja Cards that are kind of like Death Eater but better
> are playable but not great.
Oh, wait, that's GHOST Eater. There's no such card as Death Eater,
right?
Peter D Bakija
> Death Eater is a Harbingers card and it is ass.
Yes. Clearly I meant "Consume the Dead" or whatever.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
>Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt.
As that was the intention for scarce bloodlines vamps, they are doing
just fine then.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> I mean, again, no one is going to burn up
>
> right?
Maybe? It strikes me as clear enough from the context of the
discussion that I meant to say "Consume the Dead", as that is:
A) A Nagaraja card, which is what is under discussion.
and
B) A Nagaraja card that is being discussed by me in this thread as a
card that is reasonably good.
as well as
C) A card with a name similar enough to "Death Eater" that if one were
posting in a rush, one might accidentally write that instead of
"Consume the Dead".
In that last post, I wrote "Death Eater" as I was in a rush and made a
simple error. I'm not quite sure why it is getting your panties in a
twist.
-Peter
librarian
>
> In that last post, I wrote "Death Eater" as I was in a rush and made a
> simple error. I'm not quite sure why it is getting your panties in a
> twist.
>
What if his panties looked like this?
http://tinyurl.com/rosie-panties
(not safe for some works, like elementary schools, junior high schools,
certain religious organizations, etc. Yay for the new Transformers girl!)
best -
chris
librarian
I'm not sure of that. If Truejah and Salubri were meant to be played as
single support vamps, why give them their own discipline? Having their own
discipline just begs to build a full deck around them. Especially Truejah,
who don't really combo well with other existing clans, except perhaps
Brujah (Pot/Pre).
Of course, I am mostly just thinking of G2 Bloodlines vamps, the first wave
of them as it were.
best -
chris
Ashur
Yeah, I need some more jackass-ish response. Fire at will!
floppyzedolfin reply was clearly intended to make me look like a fool,
and I replied approriately.
The nagaraja clan cards suck. Just check the TWDA for gods sake.
Nothing about "game balance" hinders them to get some decent clan
cards.
Ashur
> On Jun 3, 3:53 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t
> > that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials
> > maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use.
>
> They Dom/Aus/Nec. Which is a very good discipline spread and fits in
> lots of decks. They a lot of good special abilities--Jozz has a great
> one; Vejay isn't brilliant, but still not bad a for a 3 cap with AUS;
> Prejudice's doesn't come up much, but when it does, it is gold;
> Aguresh has weird disciplines but a very good special; Anu gives all
> of your minions +1 bleed; Kanimana has great disciplines and a gold
> special. What isn't to like?
What decks does it fit in? Giovanni power-bleed and Shambling decks
are the almost only decks I´ve seen them in. I don´t think the Nags
got better specials than Trujahs or Salubri, if that is your argument.
> > Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll?
>
> Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money.
Then I really don´t think it´s nice of you to speak out here without
stating that.
>
> > They still can´t make anything worth critizing huh?
>
> Well considering how you seem to be incapable of doing anything other
> than bitch about things that seem mostly irrelevant, apparently they
> can. Why do you even play this game?
Because I think it´s fun. Why do you play? Because you like Gary
Chatterton artwork?
> > Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck.
>
> If you are using the Nagaraja (who have NEC/DOM, just like the
> Giovanni) to get your hordes, why would you *not* use this card? I
> mean, I'm not using 10 or anything, but every time I build a Hordes
> deck, it has a few Le Din Tho and one of these in it. And it pays off.
>
> > See above. Haven´t seen it in any good deck.
>
> Considering how much you hate everything in this game, have you ever
> even *seen* a good deck?
I don´t hate everything about this game. Check the TWDAs for example,
for some good decks. That is the kind of decks that see play in my
playgroup, and that is the kind of material I would like when I open a
booster. If now WW is into selling boosters. Maybe they are more into
selling crap to people like you, I don´t know.
>
> > What deck would I play this in?
>
> A deck that has a few Nagaraja in it. Whatever deck that is. Mixed
> into Shambling Hordes Giovanni. Maybe mixed in with the HoS for a
> Trochomancy deck.
Yeeeah, a trochomancy deck. Try to win some tournaments with that, or
at least take some VPs in a enviroment with not only total morons.
> The Imbued and Carleton are both not uncommon mortal
> allies. Carleton reliably shows up in pretty much every game I ever
> play these days.
So why not use Far mastery or a rush, which is much more versetile?
> > Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back
> > to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards.
>
> Ok? The Salubri get Path of Tears, Sight Beyond Sight, and Journal of
> Hrosh. Path of Tears is difficult to use (as you need to have it in
> hand when you play the guy) and doesn't do much (the 3 pool savings is
> nice, but a Villein is just as good and more likely to pay off) and
> can be burned. Woo. Sight Beyond Sight is fine, but something you can
> get in any number of ways.
LOL! How do you get a permantent non-conditional intercept on a vamp
without taking an action?
> Journal of Hrosh is funny and possibly
> effective. None of these cards are bad, but none of them are earth
> shattering either. The Trujah get Path of the Scorched Heart (which is
> pretty good), Tabriz Assembly (also pretty good),
"Pretty good". Are you serious? +1 hand size and personal HG, "pretty
good"?
> and Vaticination (not horrible).
See Jeff Kutas answer. Total information about all hands, discard a
card AND +3 stealth, and you think it´s just "not horrible".
> None of these, however, are mind numbingly better than
> Consume the Dead ("gain 4 blood on a tapped minion when the ally that
> your are building and fighting with anyway blocks something") or
> Ritual Scalpel. And yeah, Temporis and Obtenebration have good cards.
> So do Dominate and Auspex.
Please get back to reviewing Gary Chatterton artwork.
Malone
> In that last post, I wrote "Death Eater" as I was in a rush and made a
> simple error. I'm not quite sure why it is getting your panties in a
> twist.
I think you're projecting...
Peter D Bakija
> I'm not sure of that. If Truejah and Salubri were meant to be played as
> single support vamps, why give them their own discipline?
'Cause they had their own discipline in the source material. Which is
why historically, the Nosferatu sucked for an incredibly long time and
the Malkavians were ridiculously powerful for a long time--'cause in
the RPG, they got those disciplines, so in the CCG, they got those
disciplines, and it just happened to turn out that, say, Obf/Dom was
incredibly effective at winning the game where, say, Obf/Pot, not as
much.
They could have made the Trujah and the Salubri without their own
disciplines, and then people would have been all "Why the hell didn't
the Trujah and the Salubri get their own disciplines?!?!?"
> Having their own discipline just begs to build a full deck around them.
Sure. But the scarcity penalty begs to not build a full deck around
them. Which results in wacky compromises of deck building. I mean, I'm
sure someone somwhere has built an all Nagaraja deck at some point
that was good at, well, something.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
Uh, yeah. That's it.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> What decks does it fit in?
What? Kanimana Belgazi giving you increased hand size and having DOM/
AUS/NEC/pro? A deck that wants increased hand size while using those
disciplines.
> Giovanni power-bleed and Shambling decks
> are the almost only decks I´ve seen them in. I don´t think the Nags
> got better specials than Trujahs or Salubri, if that is your argument.
I never said they got better specials than the Trujah or the Salubri.
I said they got good specials.
> Then I really don´t think it´s nice of you to speak out here without
> stating that.
Blink. Blink.
> Because I think it´s fun. Why do you play? Because you like Gary
> Chatterton artwork?
Wow. You are simply too much of a douche bag to continue discussing
this with. Good luck.
-Peter
librarian
Don't worry Peter, it has to do with our friends Harry, Ron, and Hermione...
best -
chris
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/HarryPotter/Docs/Quiz-House.html
librarian
> On Jun 4, 12:18 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure of that. If Truejah and Salubri were meant to be played as
>> single support vamps, why give them their own discipline?
>
> 'Cause they had their own discipline in the source material. Which is
> why historically, the Nosferatu sucked for an incredibly long time and
> the Malkavians were ridiculously powerful for a long time--'cause in
> the RPG, they got those disciplines, so in the CCG, they got those
> disciplines, and it just happened to turn out that, say, Obf/Dom was
> incredibly effective at winning the game where, say, Obf/Pot, not as
> much.
>
> They could have made the Trujah and the Salubri without their own
> disciplines, and then people would have been all "Why the hell didn't
> the Trujah and the Salubri get their own disciplines?!?!?"
>
>> Having their own discipline just begs to build a full deck around them.
>
> Sure. But the scarcity penalty begs to not build a full deck around
> them. Which results in wacky compromises of deck building.
Ok, didn't know that about source material.
I mean, I'm
> sure someone somwhere has built an all Nagaraja deck at some point
> that was good at, well, something.
>
I challenge you on that. Maybe good at sucking.
I really hoped the Battlelines would bring out the Nagaraja clan lovers.
But I bet there are few.
Nagaraja as clan are just plain boring. Although they have a pretty good
discipline spread, they don't have much spice...
best -
chris
Kevin Walsh
> What if his panties looked like this?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/rosie-panties
>
> (not safe for some works, like elementary schools, junior high schools,
> certain religious organizations, etc. Yay for the new Transformers girl!)
>
making a Kiss Players reference.
Kevin Walsh
Peter D Bakija
> Don't worry Peter, it has to do with our friends Harry, Ron, and Hermione...
Damn those Death Eaters!
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> I challenge you on that. Maybe good at sucking.
I'm sure someone out there was like "I love the Nagaraja! I want to
make a deck out of them!" and, ya know, they have Dominate and Auspex,
both of which can make something happen, and Necromancy to help the
happening occur. Or something. I mean, I doubt it was super awesome.
Or even particularly good. But I'm sure someone has tried. I mean,
like, some deck of 3 each of Le Dinh Tho and Kanimana Belgazi that is
backed up by 6 random dominate weenies (heck, if you go G2-3, you can
get a bunch of dom/aus and dom/nec 3-4 caps) is gonna get some VPs.
> Nagaraja as clan are just plain boring. Although they have a pretty good
> discipline spread, they don't have much spice...
Oh, sure. I don't dispute that at all. But given that the initial plan
for the Bloodlines clans was to make clans that mix in as a sideline
to other clans for the most part, rather than be clans that stand on
their own, the Nagaraja are some of the most successful at that, in a
design sense (and an actual sense--they are great adjuncts to other
clans, and don't do much on their own). Yeah, the Trujah and the
Salubri are much sexier and much more likely to be the basis for
decks. But until, like, Summon History hit the streets, were the
Trujah really tearing up the competitive scene? The Salubri are pretty
much the best of all three (oh, those poor Abominations...) and they
have a lot going on with Healiristry. But in terms of what I have all
the reason in the world to believe was the initial intention of
(certainly the scarce) Bloodlines clans, the Nagaraja work just fine.
-Peter
Ashur
Douche bag or not, at least I got some solid arguments.
Blooded Sand
Except that BECAUSE you sound and come across like a complete and
utter over filled, some what rotting douche bag, no one will listen to
what you say, cos, yah know, you sound like a douche bag
Peter D Bakija
> Douche bag or not, at least I got some solid arguments.
And how! I'm convinced!
Oh, wait. We have previously established your inability to understand
sarcasm. Never mind.
-Peter
Ashur
Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be
somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of
replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B. And always a bunch of
"sarcasm" from people that don´t have any good arguments.
James Coupe
>Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be
>somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of
>replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B.
You don't. Peter quite often admits that a whole bunch of cards are
crappy. (I think he tends to use the word "janky".)
If he's disagreeing with you, it's usually because he sees a potential
use for good. It might not be a Tier 1, super super must win the NAC
use for the card, but it can be a solid use for an interesting deck that
has potential.
And, you know, sometimes people are wrong. People might think bad cards
are good. That doesn't mean WW employ them.
>And always a bunch of
>"sarcasm" from people that don´t have any good arguments.
Given that you hurl abuse at people who disagree with you, you're not
really in a position to complain about things like this. It completely
devalues the arguments you might or might not have.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Amenophobis
> Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be
> >somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of
> >replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B.
>
> You don't. Peter quite often admits that a whole bunch of cards are
> crappy. (I think he tends to use the word "janky".)
While I have to admit that Peter is on the whole reasonable and civil,
he is using a seemingly apologist-like style of discussion in almost
anything related with WW.
"Yeah, I agree, X is not great, but it's not end of the world..."
"Yeah, Y might suck, but it doesn't really matter..."
"Z seems to be not so great, but that's not big deal..."
The more you read stuff like that, the more you get the notion that a
person is defending "sucky" things for a reason. On the other hand, it
might be a not-native-language-thing and I'm missing a certain point
here.
However, I remember quite clearly some art-discussion (Chatterton!)
here on usenet going, as well as threads about WW doing things
allegedly badly, seemingly wall-paperish cards, allegedly missed
opportunities for reprints, etc.
All I'm saying is, people *might* get an impression of Peter having
stakes with WW... ;)
James Coupe
>On 5 Jun., 20:11, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be
>> >somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of
>> >replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B.
>>
>> You don't. Peter quite often admits that a whole bunch of cards are
>> crappy. (I think he tends to use the word "janky".)
>
>While I have to admit that Peter is on the whole reasonable and civil,
>he is using a seemingly apologist-like style of discussion in almost
>anything related with WW.
>
>"Yeah, I agree, X is not great, but it's not end of the world..."
>"Yeah, Y might suck, but it doesn't really matter..."
>"Z seems to be not so great, but that's not big deal..."
>
>The more you read stuff like that, the more you get the notion that a
>person is defending "sucky" things for a reason.
Apply Occam's Razor.
Which is more likely:
- WW secretly pay Peter to post to newsgroups when a discussion comes up
every few months about how some cards are crap. They don't pay a web
designer to keep the website up to date. They don't pay a marketer to
drip feed interesting tit-bits to the press and to fans. They don't
pay a programmer to keep the tournament rankings up to date. No, the
real secret to V:TES's success is that someone has to post to the
newsgroup once every few months and say "Hey, I don't think those
cards are as bad as you make out" so they totally pay him to do that.
- Peter thinks some cards are usable, and doesn't think it's the end of
the world if a few cards are crappy.
Take your pick.
Option A can be filed alongside believing that Elvis didn't die and that
Christopher Marlowe faked his own death so he could write Shakespeare's
plays.
Honestly, some people just don't think it's the end of the world if some
cards aren't as good as Govern the Unaligned. People play the game for
different reasons, people enjoy playing different sorts of decks, people
enjoy different sorts of challenges. Some people take a different view
of game design - I'm perfectly happy to see some conservative additions
to the game that become better later. (Example: some of the Anarchs set
is pap, but better with Twilight Rebellion.)
Hurling abuse and questioning people's motives because - heaven forfend
- someone doesn't share your priorities about how V:TES must be designed
is... unhelpful.
Jeff Kuta
I have no idea what to name these cards, but here are some ideas:
Nagaraja Meat Locker
Unique Location
Nagaraja
Burn Option
Whenever a minion controlled by another Methuselah loses any amount of
blood or life, put 1 blood counter on this card. If a mortal is
burned, put 2 counters on this card. Once each action, you may burn a
counter from this card to give an acting Nagaraja +1 stealth or +1
bleed. During your discard phase, burn 1 counter from this card for
every Nagaraja you control.
Foodie
Master
Nagaraja
Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a
vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life,
this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie.
Caterer
2 pool
Nagaraja
Wraith Ally
3 Life, 0 Strength, 1 Bleed. The Caterer may move one blood or life
from any minion or retainer to a ready untapped Nagaraja as a 2s (D)
action.
Just some ideas. :)
Jeff
Amenophobis
All you say is profound and valid. I wouldn't say otherwise.
However, Peter's style makes me sometimes wonder if he has a strong
urge to defend (almost) everything said/done by WW that would be
debateable.
I yet have to see a post where Peter wholeheartedly concurs with
criticism about WW. I know that most of that criticism is unfounded,
but once in a while some are substantial. If I remember correctly,
Peter's take on the matters seems always the same ("yeah... but... ").
Rock on Peter. :)
Peter D Bakija
> While I have to admit that Peter is on the whole reasonable and civil,
> he is using a seemingly apologist-like style of discussion in almost
> anything related with WW.
How is this becoming a discussion about whether or not I am a "WW
Apologist" or not? It's kind of baffling.
This discussion started with Ashur complaining about something, me
(sadly knowing full well how it would end up) pointing out that at
least 2 of the 3 cards he was complaining about were playable and
actually not bad, in a completely civil and rational manner. And Ashur
comes back in immediately throwing punches. And here we are.
> "Yeah, I agree, X is not great, but it's not end of the world..."
> "Yeah, Y might suck, but it doesn't really matter..."
> "Z seems to be not so great, but that's not big deal..."
How is any of that at all an unreasonable viewpoint? Yes. Sometimes
things suck. Sometimes things have bad art. Sometimes cards are bad.
And yet, still, overall, the game works and is a good product. I doubt
that anyone who is remotely invested in the game would disagree with
that. This past expansion? Had some bad cards and some bad art (of
which Chatterson was certainly not the worst...). But bad cards, which
there are in every set? They just get ignored and not played and who
cares? The occasional bit of bad art? If it is bad art on a good card,
people complain about the bad art and play the good card, and everyone
moves on. If it is bad art on a bad card, again, it just gets ignored
and occasionally mocked.
> The more you read stuff like that, the more you get the notion that a
> person is defending "sucky" things for a reason. On the other hand, it
> might be a not-native-language-thing and I'm missing a certain point
> here.
Who the fuck cares why I am defending things? Really? If you want to
imagine that I am secretly a shill for the company ('cause, ya know,
White Wolf certainly has the money for that sort of activity...), and
it helps you sleep at night, go nuts. I'm not, but apparently, that
isn't really relevant.
> However, I remember quite clearly some art-discussion (Chatterton!)
> here on usenet going, as well as threads about WW doing things
> allegedly badly, seemingly wall-paperish cards, allegedly missed
> opportunities for reprints, etc.
Yes. Clearly you are my fan. Woo!
But sadly, you aren't enough of a super fan of my work to remember
some of my greatest hits like "The game really needs to do something
to make combat a viable strategy!", "Anarch Revolt is completely
broken and needs fixing!" and "Protect Thine Own is completely broken
and needs fixing!" and "Banishment is completely broken and needs
fixing!" and "the rules for Contestation kind of make the game suck
and should get changed!" etc.
See, I'm concerned about things that make the game not work well. And
put effort into getting them fixed. And not concerned with stupid crap
like 4 or 5 cards having silly artwork and a couple clan cards being
possibly under the power curve. And find that when people get all
tweaked about something stupid like 4 or 5 cards having silly art and
decrying that is "The End Of The Game!", it is usually, at the very
least, entertaining to argue with them about it.
> All I'm saying is, people *might* get an impression of Peter having
> stakes with WW... ;)
We *all* have stakes with WW. If the company goes under, so does the
game. Which, presumably, we all like.
In the name of full disclosure, I'll point out that:
A) White Wolf once paid me $21 and change for an article I wrote for
the Players Guide update supplement.
B) I have, in the past, playtested for this game in an official
capacity.
If that makes me a shill for WW with stakes in the company, so be it.
-Peter
suoli
>
> Who the fuck cares why I am defending things? Really? If you want to
> imagine that I am secretly a shill for the company ('cause, ya know,
> White Wolf certainly has the money for that sort of activity...), and
> it helps you sleep at night, go nuts. I'm not, but apparently, that
> isn't really relevant.
Settle down. Amenophobis made a humorous observation (which, frankly,
isn't completely unfounded) and followed the add-a-smiley-so-Peter-
doesn't-take-it-seriously protocol correctly. Nobody has to go nuts
over this. :)
James Coupe
>Foodie
>Master
>Nagaraja
>Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a
>vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life,
>this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie.
I quite like this, but perhaps the other way round.
Nagaraja are well-known for their superlative control of wraiths,
through use of the Path of the Sepulchre and the Path of Vitreous. So,
for example:
Bobby (Wraith)
Unique wraith retainer, 2 life
Requires Nagaraja
Once per turn, after a successful action performed by this Nagaraja,
you may add a blood to another vampire you control.
Perhaps "No more than one Bobby per vampire" rather than unique,
although that won't necessarily matter.
An alternative option might be something like:
Spectral Augmentation
+1 stealth action, 1 blood
Requires Nagaraja
Search your library, hand, and/or ash heap for a wraith retainer.
Move that retainer to this Nagaraja (paying the cost as normal for
employment, but ignoring requirements (if any)). Put this card on
that retainer. Once per turn, after a successful action performed by
this Nagajara, you may add a blood to another vampire you control. A
Nagaraja can have only one Spectral Augmentation on all of its
retainers.
wedge
> Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so
> awesome?
>
> This far we have:
>
> Consume the Dead [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Action/Reaction
> Clan: Nagaraja
> Burn Option
> [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or
> burn a wraith retainer.
> [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by
> any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped
> Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This
> Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood,
> where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
>
> Emergency Rations [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Action
> Clan: Nagaraja
> +1 stealth action.
> Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from
> the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap
> phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full
> capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one
> Emergency Rations.
>
> Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R]
> Cardtype: Equipment
> Clan: Nagaraja
> Burn Option
> Unique equipment.
> If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional
> blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal
> (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action.
>
> None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. Compared with
> the cards for Trujahs and Salubri they are shit.
Well, to start, players have yet to support (play) Nag much. So, the
designers do not focus on them. That said, they have given us three
good cards, as yet no one has chosen to exploit them.
Ritual Scalpel is in every way better then Aaron Feeding Razor, but
nothing is to stop one from having both.
Senerderik could hunt for 5 a turn, likely good enough to bring out
the rest of your crypt. Do not forget that it can hit mortal
retainers as well.
Consume the Dead, while useless as an action is very good as a
reaction. How often do "minions" burn in a game? I see it in most
games. Let us assume you are playing Shambling Hordes. Your horde
blocks and burns. CtD will give you the blood to pay for another one.
Granted it will not be able to be used for the next horde, but if you
didn't have the blood the point is moot. On top of that, it HOSES
turbo decks. And can be used to preserve counters on FBI Special
Affairs Division.
Emergency Rations is one of the few cards that will fill up a
vampire. Even though, it does not have flexibility of Giants Blood or
Renewed Vigor. It can be played with only one minion in play and need
not be used until you deem it necessary. It has a MAY in its burn
clause. Dam shame procurer isn't a mortal, guess there is always
Neighborhood Watch Commander.
Matt
Ashur
>
> Honestly, some people just don't think it's the end of the world if some
> cards aren't as good as Govern the Unaligned.
Has anyone stated that it´s the end of the world if some cards aren´t
as good as Govern the Unaligned? No. So why do you bring this up? I
think the clan cards for Nagaraja suck, and I asked if someone has an
idea why. Some people said it´s because of game balance, but I haven´t
seen any really good arguments for that.
> I'm perfectly happy to see some conservative additions
> to the game that become better later. (Example: some of the Anarchs set
> is pap, but better with Twilight Rebellion.)
Nagaraja came into the game 2001. Now, nine years later, they still don
´t have a decent clan card.
> Hurling abuse and questioning people's motives because - heaven forfend
> - someone doesn't share your priorities about how V:TES must be designed
> is... unhelpful.
Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is
very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup.
"Unhelpful" for you or not.
Jeff Kuta
Check this out:
Billy (Wraith)
Wraith Ally
Nagaraja
1 pool
2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you
control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap
Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja.
Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn.
Spectre (Wraith)
Nagaraja
Wraith Retainer
Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action.
When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its
replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre.
Hour of Death
1 stealth Action
1 blood
aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the
revealed cards from the game.
AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith.
Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire
untaps.
Soul Judgment
1 stealth Action
aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith
ally.
AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2
bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith
retainer.
How about them apples? ;)
Jeff
Blooded Sand
> Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is
> very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup.
> "Unhelpful" for you or not.
Dude, put the glass pipe down, step away, crack is wack, m'kay?
Peter got paid, once, years ago, for writing an addition to the
players handbook.
That to you means he is on their payroll?
Seriously, you need to come back from whatever planet you are
currently orbiting, Earth is pretty cool.
Blooded Sand
> Check this out:
>
> Billy (Wraith)
> Wraith Ally
> Nagaraja
> 1 pool
> 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
> Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you
> control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap
> Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja.
> Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn.
the next Methuselah controlling a Nagaraja at the end of your turn."
>
> Spectre (Wraith)
> Nagaraja
> Wraith Retainer
> Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action.
> When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its
> replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre.
>
> Hour of Death
> 1 stealth Action
> 1 blood
> aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the
> revealed cards from the game.
> AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith.
> Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire
> untaps.
>
> Soul Judgment
> 1 stealth Action
> aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith
> ally.
> AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2
> bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith
> retainer.
>
> How about them apples? ;)
>
> Jeff
yummy!
Pascal
<ashur.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hurling abuse and questioning people's motives because - heaven forfend
>> - someone doesn't share your priorities about how V:TES must be designed
>> is... unhelpful.
>
>Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is
>very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup.
>"Unhelpful" for you or not.
Unless I missed a post somewhere, all he "confessed" was that he once
wrote an article for them and had acted as a playtester.
And really, the idea that White Wolf pays a guy to viral market their
game on a Newsgroup with maybe 40 regular Posters by posting such
tried and true marketing slogans as "It`s not that bad" or "Yeah, it
sucks but it isn`t the end of the world" seems phenominally retarded.
Peter D Bakija
> Settle down. Amenophobis made a humorous observation (which, frankly,
> isn't completely unfounded) and followed the add-a-smiley-so-Peter-
> doesn't-take-it-seriously protocol correctly. Nobody has to go nuts
> over this. :)
I assure you, there is nothing over here that needs settling. If I
seemed ranty, it is 'cause Amenophobis (who seems like an otherwise
completely reasonable guy) has previously accused me of being a White
Wolf shill, and is yet again doing the same thing, even after I
previously pointed out that, in fact, no, I don't work for White Wolf
and I'm not secretly defending White Wolf as some sort of incredibly
obtuse marketing campaign.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is
> very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup.
> "Unhelpful" for you or not.
Are you freaking kidding me? At no point did I "confess" that I am on
the White Wolf payroll. When I wrote:
"Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money."
I was, as noted in a later message (where I pointed out that you were
clearly incapable of understanding sarcasm) being sarcastic. There was
no smiley, as they was nothing jokey about it. It was straight
forward, totally clear sarcasm, which you apparently chose to take as
fact. Even though I pointed out in various other locations that I
don't, in fact, work for white wolf.
No. I am not on White Wolf's payroll. I don't work for White Wolf. I
have never worked for White Wolf in any capacity other than writing a
single freelance article for the Player's Guide PDF update (go team
Abomination!) some number of years ago that I got paid 21 bucks for.
Just like an awful lot of people who play this game and post on this
here newsgroup. And I have, in the past, playtested sets in
production. This makes me "on WWs payroll"?
-Peter
James Coupe
>On Jun 6, 9:56 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Check this out:
>>
>> Billy (Wraith)
>> Wraith Ally
>> Nagaraja
>> 1 pool
>> 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
>> Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you
>> control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap
>> Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja.
>> Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn.
>Maybe make this clause: "Control of Billy passes counterclockwise to
>the next Methuselah controlling a Nagaraja at the end of your turn."
It's actually potentially much more fun this way. If the movement is
mandatory, then when it passes to the other Methuselahs they have to
give a blood from their vampires back to you (the Nagaraja player).
I play it, control goes to you. You act with Arika, who is successful.
You tap Billy and have to give a blood from Arika to a Nagaraja - which
is likely to be my vampire. (Yeah, there could be fun if two people
play Nagaraja.)
Peter D Bakija
> All you say is profound and valid. I wouldn't say otherwise.
> However, Peter's style makes me sometimes wonder if he has a strong
> urge to defend (almost) everything said/done by WW that would be
> debateable.
And yet the last time we had this same discussion I said "No, I don't
work for White Wolf. Really." Apparently that didn't stick? I'm sure
there are some public records you can look through if you really want
and see if I am on their payroll in any actual capacity if you want.
Hurrah for freedom of information!
> I yet have to see a post where Peter wholeheartedly concurs with
> criticism about WW.
Like what? Like when I was like "Huh, these cards are broken. They
need to get fixed. A lot." a hundred different times? PTO? Succubus
Club? Anarch Revolt? Banishment? Oh, wait. That was clearly me being
on WW's payroll. And in 1997, when LSJ presented us all with the new
rulings, and I was like "Yeah, X, Y, and Z? These are insane!". Oh,
wait. At that point, VTES wasn't owned by WW yet. So I guess that
doesn't count, 'cause me being on the WW payroll wasn't really an
option yet.
> I know that most of that criticism is unfounded,
> but once in a while some are substantial. If I remember correctly,
> Peter's take on the matters seems always the same ("yeah... but... ").
And I'll point out that the times you have taken note of this was
around the Gary Chatterton issue (which, again, is an issue of "who
the hell cares of 10 reprints in a set of 2000+ cards have harmlessly
schlocky art?"), something about what cards got reprinted in starters
(where I probably explained that there was probably a reason that
Parity Shift didn't get reprinted as opposed to it just being
capricious or random) and, uh, this one? Where me pointing out that 2
of the 3 Nagaraja clan cards are playable is some sort of deep level
stealth marketing tactic?
> Rock on Peter. :)
I do what I can, man. I do what I can.
-Peter
Kevin M.
> Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think
> that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this
> newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not.
Ok, Ashur is officially a troll.
Everyone, please stop talking to him.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Jeff Kuta
Yes! That was the intent at least. I wanted to make something like the
Informant which helped give Nagaraja blood instead of card
information. I don't know a lot about their "theme" but it seemed this
was kinda close to theirs. Billy is supposed to be Unique as well.
It's also kind of a little like Millicent Smith since there's a
disincentive to act. Plus, I wanted a Wraith to be on the table, and
wandering around, so the other Wraith affecting cards of Necromancy
and the Nagaraja could be used against opposing Methuselahs.
Jeff
Haze
> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Ashur
>
funny how it never goes both ways.
I propose that all players who criticize new VTES expansion cards'
artwork or functionality, and/or being critical towards White Wolf and
their policies, are secretly viral marketers being paid by Konami to
demoralize VTES players and convert them to playing Yu-Gi-Oh!
Don't listen to Ondore's lies!
Kushiel
> Because the Nagaraja don't have any new disciplines *and* they are
> scarce, there is zero incentive to build Nagaraja focused decks like
> there are Salubri or Trujah focused decks.
Agreed. But the scarce rule is still dumb and serves no useful
purpose.
John Eno
Kevin M.
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>> Because the Nagaraja don't have any new disciplines *and* they are
>> scarce, there is zero incentive to build Nagaraja focused decks like
>> there are Salubri or Trujah focused decks.
>
> Agreed. But the scarce rule is still dumb and serves no useful
> purpose.
It serves as an RPG-crossover, as do many things in VTES.
Whether those are useful or not is up the individual... ;)
librarian
> Ashur wrote:
>> Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think
>> that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this
>> newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not.
>
> Ok, Ashur is officially a troll.
>
> Everyone, please stop talking to him.
>
>
Yes, agreed. Please. A full 75% of the posts in this topic are about
Ashur and Peter, not enough about why Nagaraja Clan cards suck. Because
they do.
3 Nagaraja Clan Cards (Consume the Dead, Emergency Rations, and Ritual
Scalpel). Their texts are up thread somewhere.
The thing is, none of them are compelling enough to inspire someone to
build a deck around them, unless they are really into janky strategies and
masochism; and their playgroup accepts experimental decks.
I'm going to go through every clan's cards and list one card that is better
(Either more versatile, more inspiring to build a deck around, or just more
useful to any of the basic strategies that lead to VP and GW) than any of
the Naga cards. Consume the Dead and Emergency Rations are too cornercase
and have low opportunity thresholds; while Ritual Scalpel is a glorified
Aaron's feeding razor, so could be used in bloat strategies I guess. But
not very inspiring.
Abomination: Doh! They have no clan cards, so Nagaraja win this one.
Ahrimane: Blessing of the Beast
Akunanse: Wise Spider
Assamite: Alamut (and many others)
Baali: Call the Great Beast
Blood Brother: Oppugnant Night (Blood Brothers also only have 3 clan cards,
and 2 of them are better than all 3 Naga cards(I mean Thicker than Blood))
Brujah: New Carthage
!Brujah: Waste Mgmt Operation
Daugther of Cacophony: Paris Opera House
Follower of Set: Corruption
Gangrel: Ecoterrorists
!Gangrel: Bay and Howl, Leathery Hide
Gargoyle: Rock Cat
Giovanni: Sudario Refraction
Guruhi: Guruhi are the Land (versatility)
Harbinber of Skulls: Slaughterhouse
Ishtarri: Ok, Informant is ok, as is Uncontrolled Impulse, but I might give
Ritual Scalpel the nod over either of these. Nah, Naga cards still don't
match up.
Kiasyd: Chanjelin Ward, seriously.
Lasombra: Political Struggle
Malkavian: Madness Network
!Malkavian: Cracking the wall (jk!) really: Enchanted Marionette
Nosferatu: Warsaw Station
!Nosferatu:Nosferatu Kingdom
Osebo: 419 Operation
Pander: Legacy of Pander
Ravnos: Week of Nightmares
Salubri: Sight Beyond Sight
!Salubri: Blessing of the Name
Samedi: Little Mountain Cemetary
Toreador: Aching Beauty
!Toreador: Art Scam
Tremere: Ankara Citadel
!Tremere: Nephandus
True Brujah: Vaticination (+3stealth!) Again a clan with only 3 clan cards,
of which I would argue all 3 are better than any of the 3 Nag cards.
Tzimisce: War Ghoul
Ventrue: Island of Yiaros, Hostile Takeover
!Ventrue: Demonstration
Give us something for Nagaraja that meets Ankara, or Madness Netowrk, or
Sudario Refractino.
That would be nice.
best -
chris
Raziel
> On Jun 6, 12:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Foodie
> > >Master
> > >Nagaraja
> > >Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a
> > >vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life,
> > >this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie.
>
> > I quite like this, but perhaps the other way round.
Not bad, but how often it will pay off ? Could be tasty with Mercy of
Seth loop.
> > Nagaraja are well-known for their superlative control of wraiths,
> > through use of the Path of the Sepulchre and the Path of Vitreous. So,
> > for example:
>
> > Bobby (Wraith)
> > Unique wraith retainer, 2 life
> > Requires Nagaraja
> > Once per turn, after a successful action performed by this Nagaraja,
> > you may add a blood to another vampire you control.
>
> > Perhaps "No more than one Bobby per vampire" rather than unique,
> > although that won't necessarily matter.
>
> > An alternative option might be something like:
Unique Wraith that cost 0 blood. Could work with that necromancy-burn-
wraith-to-get-5-blood. Other than that, it would be 4th blood gaining
tech for nagaraja (i'd say better than ritual scalpel, as you may do
something other than hunt to gain blood).
> > Spectral Augmentation
> > +1 stealth action, 1 blood
> > Requires Nagaraja
> > Search your library, hand, and/or ash heap for a wraith retainer.
> > Move that retainer to this Nagaraja (paying the cost as normal for
> > employment, but ignoring requirements (if any)). Put this card on
> > that retainer. Once per turn, after a successful action performed by
> > this Nagajara, you may add a blood to another vampire you control. A
> > Nagaraja can have only one Spectral Augmentation on all of its
> > retainers.
There are few wraith retainers out there. And none is good for its
price used with card in question (masquer is too costly, protector
outright sucks, charigger is waste on nagaraja).
> Check this out:
>
> Billy (Wraith)
> Wraith Ally
> Nagaraja
> 1 pool
> 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
> Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you
> control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap
> Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja.
> Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn.
Good. Have some minor wording issues.
> Spectre (Wraith)
> Nagaraja
> Wraith Retainer
> Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action.
> When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its
> replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre.
Effect is not worth the effort imo.
> Hour of Death
> 1 stealth Action
> 1 blood
> aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the
> revealed cards from the game.
> AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith.
> Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire
> untaps.
Twist on revelation. Combo well with wraiths above. Unless people will
play more wraiths (or there will be decent tech for the card), it's
wallpaper (i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1 card in
next bloodline set)
> Soul Judgment
> 1 stealth Action
> aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith
> ally.
> AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2
> bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith
> retainer.
>
> How about them apples? ;)
>
> Jeff
As i said above, i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1
card, so there will be no combo. About Nagaraja cards:
Emergency Rations
Action Nagaraja
+1 stealth action.
Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from
the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap
phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full
capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one
Emergency Rations.
Many people play Carlton, Mr. Winthrop, Tasha, Simmons. Vagabond and
Youngbloods are not scarce either. Nobody is stopping you to play some
of them (Carlton and Winthrop seems like the best choices, Youngbloods
are not bad in horde deck. With liquidations you are likely to move
some of them into your ash heap. If not, possibly other player will do
it). Best nagaraja vampires tend to be small, Amu/Sennadurek/Le Dinh/
Veejay. Yavu is not good enough. So in best case it's 7 blood gained.
Not bad, especially for Amu who REALLY need the blood.
Consume the Dead
Action Reaction Nagaraja
+1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or burn a
wraith retainer.
Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by any means
except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped Nagaraja.
Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This Nagaraja
gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, where X
is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
Action is cornercase, until AUS/DOM/NEC get some decent combat cards
(or when there will be some good wraiths to warrant breath of thanatos
inclusion). Reaction would be good in Horde deck IF there would be
some way to give Shamblers some additional intercept (IF there would
be some auspex or auspex/necromancy or auspex/dominate that give
intercept to other vampires). Right now it have too big opportunity
cost, but it's likely to change in the future.
Ritual Scalpel
Equipment Nagaraja
Unique equipment.
If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional
blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal
(ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action.
Would be good, but no Nagaraja have good way to multiact ... other
than Sennadurek in 11 cap seraph's deck (she have AUS dom and good
special, he want sargon to get necromancy anyway)(not best deck, just
an idea).
Jeff Kuta
> On 6 Cze, 21:56, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 12:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >Foodie
> > > >Master
> > > >Nagaraja
> > > >Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a
> > > >vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life,
> > > >this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie.
>
> > > I quite like this, but perhaps the other way round.
>
> Not bad, but how often it will pay off ? Could be tasty with Mercy of
> Seth loop.
I intended it to pay off every time. It's almost like a personal
hunting ground. Perhaps it needs a 1 pool cost. Mainly though, you
would choose the primary clan of your prey or predator. Then the
effect would likely disappear. Could perhaps put a "Burn this card if
there are no vampires of the chosen clan in play" clause so it could
be reused or a new one could be played.
Which is why a clan specific Wraith for Nagaraja is kinda cool.
> > Check this out:
>
> > Billy (Wraith)
> > Wraith Ally
> > Nagaraja
> > 1 pool
> > 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
> > Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you
> > control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap
> > Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja.
> > Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn.
>
> Good. Have some minor wording issues.
>
> > Spectre (Wraith)
> > Nagaraja
> > Wraith Retainer
> > Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action.
> > When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its
> > replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre.
>
> Effect is not worth the effort imo.
I had also thought about making it "Nagaraja get +1 bleed when
bleeding this minion's controller" instead. See below.
> > Hour of Death
> > 1 stealth Action
> > 1 blood
> > aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the
> > revealed cards from the game.
> > AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith.
> > Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire
> > untaps.
>
> Twist on revelation. Combo well with wraiths above. Unless people will
> play more wraiths (or there will be decent tech for the card), it's
> wallpaper (i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1 card in
> next bloodline set)
It's discipline based! Harbingers can also benefit from this card so
it'd be a candidate for inclusion in a set separate from clan cards.
Was also supposed to be "every Methuselah who controls a Wraith." That
way it can combo even better with all the Spectres scattered about the
table.
> > Soul Judgment
> > 1 stealth Action
> > aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith
> > ally.
> > AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2
> > bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith
> > retainer.
>
> > How about them apples? ;)
>
> > Jeff
>
> As i said above, i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1
> card, so there will be no combo.
Then the Nagaraja clan card better be a wraith! :)
The only reason I made it Aus/Dom/Nec is to get around the Clan
restriction since this card is from the Path of Vitreous. If it were
Aus/Nec or Dom/Nec, then it'd be too widely useful.
Make the AUS/DOM/NEC version instead:
Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed and an
additional +1 bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith.
Always useful, with a bonus vs Wraiths.
Again, my only complaint about the first two is that there's a pre-
existing game state that must be met for the cards to be played, aka
corner case. The Scalpel is all fine and dandy, but it seems more of a
metagame choice than something you'd really want to play with all the
time. If you're using Nagaraja, OUST with them.
Jeff
Ashur
> On Jun 6, 3:52 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is
> > very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup.
> > "Unhelpful" for you or not.
>
> Are you freaking kidding me? At no point did I "confess" that I am on
> the White Wolf payroll. When I wrote:
>
> "Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money."
Yes, and you have many times noted that I "don´t understand sarcasm"
and yet you continue using it in posts aimed at me. Why? It might also
be that me stating you as being on WWs payroll also being some kind of
sarcasm, but never mind. I don´t have time for your sarcasms. Put some
effort in your arguments on the topic instead. I started a thread
about Nagaraja clan cards being bad, and I will continue to argue that
giving them better clan cards would wreck game balance.
Ashur
> Ashur wrote:
> > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think
> > that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this
> > newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not.
>
> Ok, Ashur is officially a troll.
>
> Everyone, please stop talking to him.
Very nice comment. Thanks a lot. Feel free to ignore me, my sarcasms
and Peter B´s sarcasms, and just reply about your thought on the topic
(Why doesn´t Nagaraja get any good clan cards?).
Ashur
I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested
why a person every single time I write something negative about WW,
argues that WW is almost flawless? OK, maybe it isn´t, so I get back
to the subject: I understand that it is hard to make wellbalanced
cards for this game, but the clan cards for Nagaraja is just a bit to
bad to be playable. Sure, you can play any card and get use of it once
in a blue moon, but I think that is boring. What do you think?
James Coupe
>There are few wraith retainers out there. And none is good for its
>price used with card in question (masquer is too costly, protector
>outright sucks, charigger is waste on nagaraja).
Up to a point, I think that's okay. It just means we also ask for more
useful wraiths to be printed too!
James Coupe
>The only reason I made it Aus/Dom/Nec is to get around the Clan
>restriction since this card is from the Path of Vitreous. If it were
>Aus/Nec or Dom/Nec, then it'd be too widely useful.
>
>Make the AUS/DOM/NEC version instead:
>Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed and an
>additional +1 bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith.
>Always useful, with a bonus vs Wraiths.
An alternative option is to go the Aire of Elation route.
[aus nec] This card does something useful but a bit bland. If this
vampire is a Nagaraja, it gets +1 fun!
[AUS NEC] As [aus nec], but better. And funner!
Amenophobis
Peter, I have never *seriously* accused you of anything. Just for the
record.
I'm not thinking that you are on WWs payroll, nevermind. (To be fair:
I also have written articles for the WW Players Guide.)
But it seems you are missing *my* point: your style and discussion-
techniques can leave the *impression* that you are a bit more closely
related to WW than the average player. It's how you go about defending
stuff that isn't really worth defending - like the 3 Nagaraja clan
cards, which are extremely underpowered to see ever play in at least a
half-serious deck.
Or is this just a posture of yours? ;)
Back to the topic:
I'm of the opinion that WW making it "not too bad" is not good enough.
There is always room for improvement, and clearly underpowered cards
are really not necessary. Take a look at some of the HttB cards (Din
of the Damned, Treat the Sick Mind, Olid Loa, The Ailing Spirit, Hay
Ride, Masca, e.g.). They are underpowered by varying degrees.
The 3 Nagaraja clan cards *are* sucky, while Ritual Scalpel is the
best of those 3. And the Nagaraja are taken for their specials, not
their disciplines. The rest of the deck is then build around the given
disciplines - no wonder mostly Giovanni show up along the Nagaraja. Le
Dinh Tho is clearly the best of the bunch. Kanimana seems nice, but
wasting an action for the +1 handsize is not really worth it.
Peter D Bakija
> Yes, and you have many times noted that I "don´t understand sarcasm"
> and yet you continue using it in posts aimed at me. Why?
'Cause really, as much as you come across like a beligerent loon, I
suspect you are actually a reasonably intellegent person. And even
with English not being your first language, you should be able to suss
out that when I say things like "Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons of
money" in the context of:
A) A snarky slap fight of an argument,
and
B) Me saying "No, I don't work for White Wolf" in multiple other
places in the discussion.
I'm just being a wise ass.
> It might also
> be that me stating you as being on WWs payroll also being some kind of
> sarcasm, but never mind.
Sure. It might be. But probably not. As there isn't really a level on
which that works, in the context of your statements, as sarcasm.
'Cause when you continue to defend your argument based on my clearly
insincere comment, such a possibility kind of falls apart.
> I don´t have time for your sarcasms. Put some
> effort in your arguments on the topic instead. I started a thread
> about Nagaraja clan cards being bad,
Yes, you did. And my first response was about nothing but Nagaraja
clan cards, and how they were (at least a couple of them) completely
playable if not the best cards in the world. And was totally civil and
discussing exactly what you seemed to be intending to discuss. And you
very first reply? Full of belligerence and accusations that I was
secretly a company shill. For someone who has no time for sarcasm and/
or is only interested in actually discussing the topic at hand, that
seems like a really bad way to go about that.
> and I will continue to argue that
> giving them better clan cards would wreck game balance.
I assume you mean "not wreck game balance". And I suspect you are
right. I'm sure they could give the Nagaraja better clan cards without
wrecking the balance of the game. And it would be nice if they did.
But the ones they already have, again, aren't horrible, and at least 2
of the 3 are playable and effective in decks that are already good.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested
> why a person every single time I write something negative about WW,
> argues that WW is almost flawless?
Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and
I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty
good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!"
You seem to be confusing:
A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is
entertaining to poke holes in.
with
B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really
deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing
to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me).
See, if you could maintain an argument that was actually just about
the game and the game mechanics without instinctively flying off the
handle and degenerating into an abusive attack on anyone who decides
to engage you, you might actually get somewhere, argument wise.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Peter, I have never *seriously* accused you of anything. Just for the
> record.
> I'm not thinking that you are on WWs payroll, nevermind. (To be fair:
> I also have written articles for the WW Players Guide.)
Fair enough. Let's move on!
> But it seems you are missing *my* point: your style and discussion-
> techniques can leave the *impression* that you are a bit more closely
> related to WW than the average player. It's how you go about defending
> stuff that isn't really worth defending - like the 3 Nagaraja clan
> cards, which are extremely underpowered to see ever play in at least a
> half-serious deck.
> Or is this just a posture of yours? ;)
Nah. As noted, as this game goes, I object to things that make the
game not work well--things that are too powerful, things that push the
game play into one particular strategy or play style or another. These
things strike me as important and worth discussing and arguing about
and taking a stance on. Which I do all the time. I find the stupid
arguments, like about how 10 cards in a set of 2000+ cards have
harmlessly schlocky art or how the Nagraja have waek clan cards, just
that. Kind of stupid. So I will argue with them on the side of "That
is stupid. Who the hell cares?". And in cases where something happens
that makes people cranky (like not reprinting Parity Shift) and people
get all irrationally cranky about it, I argue with them on the grounds
of "Yeah, it is a pain that X didn't get reprinted, but there is
probably a rational reason for it, so stop bellyaching about it."
In this instance, we got Ashur, who has a long history of showing up,
complaining about things sucking and then tossing abuse at anyone who
disagrees with him, showing up and complining about things sucking. I,
knowing full well where this will go, decided to attempt to engage him
on a completely civil and on topic level. Which goes badly. But ya
know, what are you gonna do?
In any case, are the 3 Nagaraja clan cards the best cards in the world
or anything? Not at all. But I stand by the claim that Consume the
Dead is very playable in limited numbers in the right decks--you have
the Nagaraja. They have NEC. You probably have Shambling Hordes and
you probably have The Unmaskening. Your Shambling Hordes are probably
blocking stuff, and probably getting killed once and a while when they
do so. Check. Having a Consume the Dead or two in there to refil your
Nagaraja in play, even while tapped, is a completely reasonable thing
to consider. I have done so. And it worked great. Saved Le Dinh Tho
from embarassingly having to hunt at 0 stealth at least once. Ritual
Scalpel is a totally playable, free piece of equipment, that has a
solid mundane use (+1 blood when hunting) *and* a good backup use
(kill allies) if it comes up. Put it on Anu Dippitydo. Have her hunt
with it as a Perfectionist. That is generating +3 bleed for the rest
of your minions per turn. Not at all horrible. Yes. Emergency Rations
is kind of super corner case and unlikely to see much play (primarily
due to the need for it to target a mortal ally). And as a result, is
kind of extra lame.
> Back to the topic:
> I'm of the opinion that WW making it "not too bad" is not good enough.
> There is always room for improvement, and clearly underpowered cards
> are really not necessary. Take a look at some of the HttB cards (Din
> of the Damned, Treat the Sick Mind, Olid Loa, The Ailing Spirit, Hay
> Ride, Masca, e.g.). They are underpowered by varying degrees.
Sure. Not every card can be Govern the Unaligned. All sets have a good
chunk of cards that are either:
A) Limited in scope.
or
B) Just kind of weak.
That happens. This is a CCG, where lots of people play for lots of
different reasons. Yes. Some people only like playing with the best,
most super competitive strategies at all times. Which is fine, and
every set has *something* for that kind of play. Some people like
experimenting with crazy stuff and trying to find ways to make, like,
Olid Loa (which blows) into a solid card. And the game works fine for
both kinds of players. Yes. Some cards suck. But some cards *always*
suck. In all CCGs. All the time. Designers often err on the side of
caution (for good reason), and this will sometimes result in cards
being just bad. And sometimes a card seems like a good idea on paper,
but in practice, not so much. And sometimes something seems like it
sucks in practice, and eventually someone figures out something really
good to do with it in the long run. That is how CCGs work.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Agreed. But the scarce rule is still dumb and serves no useful
> purpose.
Ya think? I think the purpose of the scarcity rule is to
disincentiveize using multiples of a given clan in the same deck.
Which it does pretty well--whenever I am building a deck with a scarce
clan, I rarely put two different members of that clan in the crypt,
specifically 'cause of the scarcity rule. And when I do put multiples
in, I know full well that I might either screw myself or just not get
out the second guy.
I mean, I certainly can see why someone might think scarcity is stupid
if you really want to make an all Abomination crypt or something. But
presumably, when making the Bloodlines set, they wanted to make the
scarce clans scarce. Which works out if that was their intention.
(Hey! White Wolf! I want my two dollars!)
-Peter
XZealot
> On Jun 7, 4:52 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested
> > why a person every single time I write something negative about WW,
> > argues that WW is almost flawless?
>
> Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and
> I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty
> good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!"
>
> You seem to be confusing:
>
> A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is
> entertaining to poke holes in.
>
> with
>
> B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really
> deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing
> to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me).
To summarize the positions
Ashur- "You are just a meat-puppet dancing on the strings of an
invisible corporate entity whose goal is nothing more than the
subversion of the VTES newsgroup to their imperceptible motives and
care not one wit for the games health which I justify by calling you
names because you refuse to support my paranoid delusions of self-
grandeur"
Peter- "That's cute, but this is a game."
wedge
> On Jun 3, 11:38 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so
> > awesome?
>
> > This far we have:
>
> > Consume the Dead [LoB:R]
> > Cardtype: Action/Reaction
> > Clan: Nagaraja
> > Burn Option
> > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or
> > burn a wraith retainer.
> > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by
> > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped
> > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This
> > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood,
> > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
>
> > Cardtype: Action
> > Clan: Nagaraja
> > +1 stealth action.
> > Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from
> > the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap
> > phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full
> > capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one
> > Emergency Rations.
>
> > Cardtype: Equipment
> > Clan: Nagaraja
> > Burn Option
> > Unique equipment.
> > If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional
> > blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal
> > (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action.
>
> > the cards for Trujahs and Salubri they are shit.
>
> Well, to start, players have yet to support (play) Nag much. So, the
> designers do not focus on them. That said, they have given us three
> good cards, as yet no one has chosen to exploit them.
>
> Ritual Scalpel is in every way better then Aaron Feeding Razor, but
> nothing is to stop one from having both.
> Senerderik could hunt for 5 a turn, likely good enough to bring out
> the rest of your crypt. Do not forget that it can hit mortal
> retainers as well.
>
> Consume the Dead, while useless as an action is very good as a
> reaction. How often do "minions" burn in a game? I see it in most
> games. Let us assume you are playing Shambling Hordes. Your horde
> blocks and burns. CtD will give you the blood to pay for another one.
> Granted it will not be able to be used for the next horde, but if you
> didn't have the blood the point is moot. On top of that, it HOSES
> turbo decks. And can be used to preserve counters on FBI Special
> Affairs Division.
>
> Emergency Rations is one of the few cards that will fill up a
> vampire. Even though, it does not have flexibility of Giants Blood or
> Renewed Vigor. It can be played with only one minion in play and need
> not be used until you deem it necessary. It has a MAY in its burn
> clause. Dam shame procurer isn't a mortal, guess there is always
> Neighborhood Watch Commander.
>
> Matt
Erergency Rations is no more difficult than shambling hordes to pull
off, in fact easier, because you can target any ash heap for a mortal
ally OR retainer.
Kushiel
> Ya think? I think the purpose of the scarcity rule is to
> disincentiveize using multiples of a given clan in the same deck.
> Which it does pretty well--whenever I am building a deck with a scarce
> clan, I rarely put two different members of that clan in the crypt,
> specifically 'cause of the scarcity rule. And when I do put multiples
> in, I know full well that I might either screw myself or just not get
> out the second guy.
Yeah. That's what it does. Discouraging deckbuilding variety in a
deckbuilding game, when that variety is of the non-broken kind, isn't
really a good basis for a rule.
> I mean, I certainly can see why someone might think scarcity is stupid
> if you really want to make an all Abomination crypt or something. But
> presumably, when making the Bloodlines set, they wanted to make the
> scarce clans scarce. Which works out if that was their intention.
Which intention would have also been fulfilled without the scarce
rule, because you could only put three guys from that clan in your
deck anyway. That's the gist of my beef - why bother with a cornercase
rule that can occasionally screw someone for playing Clan X, when
there's already a perfectly good way to keep people doing what you
want them to do when they're building decks?
John Eno
Kushiel
> It serves as an RPG-crossover, as do many things in VTES.
That purpose was already served by printing only three members of each
of the scarce clans. They were already scarce in-game; adding a rule
that arbitrarily punishes someone else for wanting to play the same
clan you're playing, as well as reducing those vampires to one-trick
ponies when no other vampires are, is dumb.
John Eno
Peter D Bakija
> Yeah. That's what it does. Discouraging deckbuilding variety in a
> deckbuilding game, when that variety is of the non-broken kind, isn't
> really a good basis for a rule.
I certainly see where you are coming from. But presumably, when
designing the first BL set all those many years ago, someone said
"Huh. These Salubri (or whatever) are really rare and almost never
hang out together. 'Cause there are only 3 in the world. How about we
make a rule that makes it so you really only ever want to have 1 in
play at a time?", and thus, you get the scarce rule. Was it the best
possible way to do that? Probably not, especially now that the
Bloodlines have grown far out of proportion to what they were probably
originally envisioned as. But as a design plan, I see why they went
that way.
> Which intention would have also been fulfilled without the scarce
> rule, because you could only put three guys from that clan in your
> deck anyway.
Sure, but if the "game world" theory was "you only ever see one
Salubri at a time" (or whatever) 'cause they are that rare, putting 3
in play isn't something that fits the background. So they could have
just said "Scarce: You may only have 1 vampire of this clan in play at
a time.", which would have been more restrictive than the current
rule.
> That's the gist of my beef - why bother with a cornercase
> rule that can occasionally screw someone for playing Clan X, when
> there's already a perfectly good way to keep people doing what you
> want them to do when they're building decks?
Yeah, the random screwology of it is a drag occasionally in that "I
had to pay 14 for Saulot 'cause someone randomly got out Mr. Noir on
the other side of the table" kind of way. But still less of a drag
than contestation. There probably could have been a better way to have
made the rule that only affected the way you built your deck, but I
suspect that the designers didn't necessarily envision either lots
more of each clan being made or the grouping rule at that point.
-Peter
Jozxyqk
> On Jun 7, 11:57 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yeah. That's what it does. Discouraging deckbuilding variety in a
> > deckbuilding game, when that variety is of the non-broken kind, isn't
> > really a good basis for a rule.
> I certainly see where you are coming from. But presumably, when
> designing the first BL set all those many years ago, someone said
> "Huh. These Salubri (or whatever) are really rare and almost never
> hang out together. 'Cause there are only 3 in the world. How about we
> make a rule that makes it so you really only ever want to have 1 in
> play at a time?", and thus, you get the scarce rule. Was it the best
> possible way to do that? Probably not, especially now that the
> Bloodlines have grown far out of proportion to what they were probably
> originally envisioned as. But as a design plan, I see why they went
> that way.
And, when designed, the Scarce rule was originally "they contest with
each other", so you know it could have been a lot worse.
Jeff Kuta
"Suspect"? This coming from someone who was on the WW payroll in the
past!??!!! WHAT ARE YOU HIDING FROM US MISTER BAKIJA!!!!???
:)
You know, Scarce is a trait. It's a mechanic of the game. If it's
becoming a problem, we can always try to lobby to make it changed.
Perhaps WW would consider lowering the Scarce penalty to 2 pool
instead of the current 3. Or maybe make it 2X where X is the number of
Scarce vampires in play so the first one is cheap, but it gets
progressively more expensive.
But I don't think it's a problem really. I would like to see more ways
for the Trujah to all hang out together, but the problem is that means
the Salubri, which are already very powerful, would get stronger too.
So, that's why we need better clan cards for the scarce clan which
isn't terribly powerful right now. :)
Jeff
Amenophobis
You mean, originally, before playtest round 1 of BL?
Jozxyqk
No, I mean *during* playtest round 1 of BL.
NDA on that is long since expired...
Reyda !
> (stupid keyboard)
>
> ...or a minion being burnt (doesn't happen all the time) and you need
> the card in hand when the event occurs.
then why don't you maximize the odds to see vampire/minion burn when
you build the deck ?
any combo with milicent smith, society of leopold, scourge of the
enochians or recall to the founder can make those nagaraja cards
really shine... But you'll have to use your deckbuilding skills for
this ! And by a strange ocurrence, that's what the bloodlines are made
for. Isn't life beautiful ? :)
Reyda !
> On Jun 4, 8:18 am, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt.
>
> As that was the intention for scarce bloodlines vamps, they are doing
> just fine then.
>
> -Peter
Totally agree with you, (it's about time ;) ) and i'm surprised Ashur
didn't mention there are no Abomination clan cards either :P
XZealot
HOLY SHIT ASHUR! YOU ARE SLEEPING ON THE JOB!
Kushiel
> And, when designed, the Scarce rule was originally "they contest with
> each other", so you know it could have been a lot worse.
True. But
(total stupidity < stupidity) =/= (not stupid)
John Eno
droppin' algebra bombs
Amenophobis
I know. Strange though, we must have had different playtest materials.
In our version the scarce rule was quite the way it is now, IIRC.
wedge
It is my belief that Ashur saw the Anu, A.I., Daemonic Possession
combo and went fishing to see if others had.
Everything after was just Obfuscation. I have been wrong before.
Matt
Kushiel
> I certainly see where you are coming from. But presumably, when
> designing the first BL set all those many years ago, someone said
> "Huh. These Salubri (or whatever) are really rare and almost never
> hang out together. 'Cause there are only 3 in the world. How about we
> make a rule that makes it so you really only ever want to have 1 in
> play at a time?", and thus, you get the scarce rule.
Right. I get that they did it out of an attempt to maintain fidelity
to the RPG. But in so doing, they eliminated an interesting menu of
choices ("How many of these Nagaraja do I want in the deck? How many
can I get away with having in the crypt and still use their clan
cards? Who, if anyone, should I use to support them?") and replaced it
with no choice other than
1) play no more than one of them per deck, or
2) make a deck which attempts to complete the victory condition of I
Can Get a Lot of Scarce Guys Into Play rather than the victory
condition everyone is playing towards.
At some point, fidelity to an outside source needs to be eschewed in
favor of good gameplay. The scarce rule, in this case, was that point,
particularly given that the backstory scarcity of these vampires is
also enforced elsewise (by only printing three of them for each clan).
> Was it the best
> possible way to do that? Probably not, especially now that the
> Bloodlines have grown far out of proportion to what they were probably
> originally envisioned as. But as a design plan, I see why they went
> that way.
Me too. I wish they hadn't, though. And it'd be so easy to fix, even
now.
> Sure, but if the "game world" theory was "you only ever see one
> Salubri at a time" (or whatever) 'cause they are that rare, putting 3
> in play isn't something that fits the background. So they could have
> just said "Scarce: You may only have 1 vampire of this clan in play at
> a time.", which would have been more restrictive than the current
> rule.
In theory, you're right. In practice, the scarce rule already
effectively reads "You may only have one vampire of this clan in play
at a time."
> Yeah, the random screwology of it is a drag occasionally in that "I
> had to pay 14 for Saulot 'cause someone randomly got out Mr. Noir on
> the other side of the table" kind of way.
It's worth noting that the scarce rule is really weird in that it
almost never affects gameplay, but has a very deleterious effect
during deckbuilding. (Well, assuming you care about the clans it
screws with.) Since deckbuilding is the one part of the game in which
there's zero randomness involved, it strikes me as extra strange to
eliminate interesting choice in favor of foregone conclusion in that
part of the game.
> But still less of a drag
> than contestation. There probably could have been a better way to have
> made the rule that only affected the way you built your deck, but I
> suspect that the designers didn't necessarily envision either lots
> more of each clan being made or the grouping rule at that point.
All true. But I am entirely confident that the scarce rule could be
dropped from the game entirely at this point, with no negative effects
and some positive effects. Hell, two of the scarce clans just got guys
who've got more scarceness built into them, if someone was worried
that having four of the same scarce clan in play was somehow going to
irrevocably destroy the canon backstory.
John Eno
Kushiel
> You know, Scarce is a trait. It's a mechanic of the game. If it's
> becoming a problem, we can always try to lobby to make it changed.
It could just be dropped.
> But I don't think it's a problem really.
It's not a problem so much as an annoyance, as I noted in my response
to Peter. It limits deckbuilding choices, with no corresponding
gameplay or backstory reason to do so.
> I would like to see more ways
> for the Trujah to all hang out together, but the problem is that means
> the Salubri, which are already very powerful, would get stronger too.
Seriously? Even if you could play four Salubri at a time, I don't see
how they would even be as good as one of the Big-Boy-Pants clans like
Ventrue or Lasombra, let alone better than them. Have you had bad
experiences on the receiving end of a Marionette deck lately or
something? :)
John Eno
librarian
So your suggestion would be to change the scarce rules to something like:
Scarce: When a Methuselah moves a scarce vampire from her uncontrolled
region to her ready region during her influence phase, she must burn 3 pool
for every other vampire of the same clan she already controls.
Or something like that?
best -
chris
Ashur
> On Jun 7, 4:52 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested
> > why a person every single time I write something negative about WW,
> > argues that WW is almost flawless?
>
> Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and
> I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty
> good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!"
Why do you use citation marks on things I´ve never stated?
And no, those cards are not "pretty good". That is because they cannot
be used with any solid effect in any serious play enviroment and that
is why they don´t show up in any TWDs and that is why they can be
bought for 1 dollar or less each at ebay.
> You seem to be confusing:
>
> A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is
> entertaining to poke holes in.
So why don´t you do so instead of going on bragging on how you work
for WW?
> with
>
> B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really
> deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing
> to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me).
Well, what do I know. I´ve read about viral marketing. Stranger things
have happened.
Ashur
Oh, quotation marks again. No interested in the topic, just putting
words in other peoples mouths?
And no, that is not my position. My position is that the Nagaraja clan
cards suck and that WW might think about getting them some better
ones. (My position about Peter B is that he is wrong and kind of
strange.)