LSJ: Protected resources/Spying mission
wolflord
There have been so many questions/posts about similar situations, but
we just couldn't find any that includes an answer to this one (and as
it came up during a tournament last WE):
You have Protected resources in play.
You attempt to bleed.
It works (succesfull bleed)
You play Spying Mission (rendering your bleed unsuccesfull,not gaining
the edge etc).
Does Protected Resources constantly check for succesfull bleeding, or
not?
In other words, does it burn during the small time window in which
your succesfull bleeding allows you to play Spying Mission, or does it
only check at the resolution, ie bleed for 0= unsuccesfull, hence
staying in play?
We had so many decent reasons pro and contra both options, so I really
couldn't say which one seems most logical anymore..
Thanks in advance
Greetz
Jo
LSJ
> Hi there,
> There have been so many questions/posts about similar situations, but
> we just couldn't find any that includes an answer to this one (and as
> it came up during a tournament last WE):
>
> You have Protected resources in play.
> You attempt to bleed.
> It works (succesfull bleed)
> You play Spying Mission (rendering your bleed unsuccesfull,not gaining
> the edge etc).
>
>
> Does Protected Resources constantly check for succesfull bleeding, or
> not?
> In other words, does it burn during the small time window in which
> your succesfull bleeding allows you to play Spying Mission, or does it
> only check at the resolution, ie bleed for 0= unsuccesfull, hence
> staying in play?
The bleed was not successful => your minion did not successfully bleed =>
the Protected Resources doesn't burn itself.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
salem
scrawled:
>wolflord wrote:
>> Hi there,
>> There have been so many questions/posts about similar situations, but
>> we just couldn't find any that includes an answer to this one (and as
>> it came up during a tournament last WE):
>>
>> You have Protected resources in play.
>> You attempt to bleed.
>> It works (succesfull bleed)
>> You play Spying Mission (rendering your bleed unsuccesfull,not gaining
>> the edge etc).
>>
>> Does Protected Resources constantly check for succesfull bleeding, or
>> not?
>
>> In other words, does it burn during the small time window in which
>> your succesfull bleeding allows you to play Spying Mission, or does it
>> only check at the resolution, ie bleed for 0= unsuccesfull, hence
>> staying in play?
>
>The bleed was not successful => your minion did not successfully bleed =>
>the Protected Resources doesn't burn itself.
but....the bleed was successful, otherwise you could not have played
Spying Mission:
Spying Mission [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:PM5/PN3]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] This acting vampire gets +1 stealth.
[OBF] ****Only usable when a bleed is successful.**** Instead of
removing pool from the Methuselah you're bleeding, put this card on
the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the
same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
emphasis added by me.
then, when you play SM, it sort of 'undoes' the success of the
bleed...?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
James Coupe
<salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes:
>then, when you play SM, it sort of 'undoes' the success of the
>bleed...?
The current interpretation of SM is closer to:
"Play when a bleed would otherwise be successful."
So far as I can tell, anyway.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
Oortje4ever
To bleed a Methuselah, announce the action and tap the acting minion
(the minion who is taking the bleed action). If the action is
successful, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the
bleed amount. By default, all minions have a bleed amount of one (most
allies have card text that overrides the default). Additionally, if
the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the
bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the
Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it.
Spying Mission [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:PM5/PN3]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] This acting vampire gets +1 stealth.
[OBF] ****Only usable when a bleed is successful.**** Instead of
removing pool from the Methuselah you're bleeding, put this card on
the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the
same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
It seems the spying mission is played at the end of the action. Doing
a replacement affect for the pool loss.
So in my interpetation the bleed is still succesfull (you even get the
edge) but the is no pool lost. So I think you lose the protected
recourses.
Have fun playing
Oortje
LSJ
> Rule book:
> if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the
> bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the
> Edge
> It seems the spying mission is played at the end of the action. Doing
> a replacement affect for the pool loss.
> So in my interpetation the bleed is still succesfull (you even get the
> edge) but the is no pool lost. So I think you lose the protected
> recourses.
The bleed amount is not one or more. The bleed is not successful. You do
not get the Edge. You don't lose the Protected Resources.
Oortje4ever
> Oortje4ever wrote:
> > Rule book:
> > if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the
> > bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the
> > Edge
>
> > It seems the spying mission is played at the end of the action. Doing
> > a replacement affect for the pool loss.
> > So in my interpetation the bleed is still succesfull (you even get the
> > edge) but the is no pool lost. So I think you lose the protected
> > recourses.
>
> The bleed amount is not one or more. The bleed is not successful. You do
> not get the Edge. You don't lose the Protected Resources.
so you play it when nobody attempts to block or when attempts to block fail?
Do I have to give my opponent an opertunaty to redirect or reduce the bleed?
Oortje
LSJ
> so you play it when nobody attempts to block or when attempts to block fail?
Yes. You play it when the bleed would be successful.
> Do I have to give my opponent an opertunaty to redirect or reduce the bleed?
Yes. You play it when the bleed would be successful.
James Coupe
Oortje4ever <oortj...@hotmail.com> writes:
>so you play it when nobody attempts to block or when attempts to block fail?
When attempts to block fail. (Assuming any were there. e.g. Horrific
Countenance.)
>Do I have to give my opponent an opertunaty to redirect or reduce the bleed?
Yes.
It's played when it would be successful, except you stop it being
successful.
Ulugh Beg
So I can't use Deflect a bleed of 0?
Correct?
salem
scrawled:
>Bleed bounces do require a succesfull bleed right?
>
>So I can't use Deflect a bleed of 0?
>
>Correct?
you don't know if it's successful or not until it's
resolving/resolved.
You can deflect a bleed of 0, or less, if you want.
You can deflect before or after block attempts.
HOWEVER, once it _is_ a successful bleed (resolving/resolved), it's
too late to deflect.
Ulugh Beg
> you don't know if it's successful or not until it's
> resolving/resolved.
>
> You can deflect a bleed of 0, or less, if you want.
> You can deflect before or after block attempts.
>
> HOWEVER, once it _is_ a successful bleed (resolving/resolved), it's
> too late to deflect.
Pffft. The timing keeps on confusing me.
"I bleed for one"
"k sure, fine with me, I don't block"
"Oh, then I'll play Conditioning, not it's a bleed for 4"
"Crap, I'll deflect"
That's legal right?
Now this:
"I bleed for one"
"k sure, fine with me, I don't block"
"Good, well, I play Spying Mission"
"Hmm, I deflect in that case"
I suppose I can't do that? I don't lose the Protected resources after
playing Spying Mission and I don't get the edge, because the bleed is
not succesful. But I can only play Spying Mission on a successful
bleed... euh?
LSJ
>>you don't know if it's successful or not until it's
>>resolving/resolved.
>>
>>You can deflect a bleed of 0, or less, if you want.
>>You can deflect before or after block attempts.
>>
>>HOWEVER, once it _is_ a successful bleed (resolving/resolved), it's
>>too late to deflect.
>
>
> Pffft. The timing keeps on confusing me.
>
> "I bleed for one"
> "k sure, fine with me, I don't block"
> "Oh, then I'll play Conditioning, not it's a bleed for 4"
> "Crap, I'll deflect"
>
> That's legal right?
Yes.
> Now this:
>
> "I bleed for one"
> "k sure, fine with me, I don't block"
"OK. I don't boost".
"OK. I don't bounce or reduce."
> "Good, well, I play Spying Mission"
> "Hmm, I deflect in that case"
>
> I suppose I can't do that?
Correct.
> I don't lose the Protected resources after
> playing Spying Mission and I don't get the edge, because the bleed is
> not succesful. But I can only play Spying Mission on a successful
> bleed... euh?
... on a bleed that would've been successful. SM keeps it from being
successful.
Ulugh Beg
> "OK. I don't bounce or reduce."
So, if I declare I won't bounce or reduce, you can't increase a bleed
anymore?
How about Walk of Caine, which specifies you can use it at ANY time
during the bleed.
Is that meant as a way around this, or more another way of saying that
it an action at san and an action modifier at SAN?
LSJ
>>"OK. I don't boost".
>>"OK. I don't bounce or reduce."
>
> So, if I declare I won't bounce or reduce, you can't increase a bleed
> anymore?
You only get the chance to declare "no more effects" after the acting
play has done so. See 1.6.1.6.
> How about Walk of Caine, which specifies you can use it at ANY time
> during the bleed.
The same. You can't get into a "No, you go first" infinite loop.
> Is that meant as a way around this, or more another way of saying that
> it an action at san and an action modifier at SAN?
It is no way around this, no.
Ulugh Beg
> play has done so. See 1.6.1.6.
"I bleed for one."
"I'm not gonna block"
"k. I'll play Command of the Beast at superior. it's now a bleed for 2"
"Hmm, shit, I'm gonna have to take that. No more modifiers?"
"Nope"
"k, I can't redirect either, so I lose two pool"
"Wait wait, I also want to play Conditoning, so it's 5 pool"
Is illegal because of the fifth line (declining any more mods).
Is it also true that you can never increase a bleed without the target
having the chance to deflect it after the last modifier?
Curevei
I find the easiest way to explain Spying Mission is that it has it's own
separate timing window that happens after all normal action modifiers and
reactions for the action. All the bleed pumps, reductions, redirections have
to be done before Spying Mission is played or [existing ones are] burnt.
That it's used in a separate timing window causes the complication/confusion.
As for effects in the same timing window as Spying Mission, as I recall Major
Boon which only changes who takes the loss and, off the top of my head, nothing
else comes to mind though I'm sure LSJ will note anything else.
LSJ
>>You only get the chance to declare "no more effects" after the acting
>>play has done so. See 1.6.1.6.
>
>
>
> "I bleed for one."
> "I'm not gonna block"
> "k. I'll play Command of the Beast at superior. it's now a bleed for 2"
> "Hmm, shit, I'm gonna have to take that. No more modifiers?"
> "Nope"
> "k, I can't redirect either, so I lose two pool"
> "Wait wait, I also want to play Conditoning, so it's 5 pool"
>
> Is illegal because of the fifth line (declining any more mods).
Correct. No more mods is no more mods.
> Is it also true that you can never increase a bleed without the target
> having the chance to deflect it after the last modifier?
Yes, per 1.6.1.6.