Winged Second clarifications
Tom Duncan
lands on my playgroup, and I anticipate there will questions that need
answering in the future, so...
Winged Second [LoB:R]
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Flight
[FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat
with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this
minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike
card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at
close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention
effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion
may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a
retainer could be.
My interpretations:
this minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a
strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution
- This strike is not declared during strike declaration, but rather
announced before prevent/healing occurs. The Winged Second cannot play
any cards that are not strike cards before this point (like Immortal
Grapple or Increased Strength), nor gain the benefit of any cards put
in play by the actual minion in combat (Torn Signpost, Drawing out the
Beast, etc.) WS cannot gain additional strikes (even if inherent to
vampire text a la Jacko), nor does WS get to strike again if the actual
minion in combat has additional strikes.
(as if at close range)
- The actual minion in combat can be at long or close range with no
bearing on the WS minion's strike. The WS minion cannot use strikes
that are 'only usable at long range', even if the original minion in
combat is at long range.
Dodge will avoid this strike
- and the strike of the actual minion in combat. A dodge avoids BOTH
strikes.
damage prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing
minion
- It is both strike damage and environmental damage. Anything that
prevents either can prevent the damage. It is NOT part of the other
minion's strike. A Skin of Steel could prevent the damage from either
the original minion OR the WS minion, not both.
This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal
blood as a retainer could be.
- includes effects like Weather Control and Mariel, Lady Thunder's
speacial ability. The WS minion can be targeted by R strikes when the
combat is occurring at long range. The WS is not considered to be at
close range just because it strikes as if at close range. Effects that
specifically target 'a retainer' will not trigger on the WS (cancelling
a retainers abilities during combat, strikes that do extra damage to
retainers, etc.). The WS minion can prevent damage as normal.
Duration: until the end of combat. It will survive a Telepathic
Tracking, but burn to a Psyche! or Hidden Lurker.
The WS is not considered "in combat" or "the opposing minion" for
effects like superior Catatonic Fear. The WS cannot be the target of a
Hidden Lurker or Cardinal Sin: Insubordination.
Please correct/verify these points as necessary, and thanks in advance.
We had a little buzz about this card at the last weekly game, and I
know i'm going to see it in play soon.
John Flournoy
Tom Duncan wrote:
> I wanted to get a pre-emptive clarification on this card before it
> lands on my playgroup, and I anticipate there will questions that need
> answering in the future, so...
>
> Winged Second [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Discipline: Flight
> [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat
> with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this
> minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike
> card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at
> close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention
> effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion
> may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a
> retainer could be.
>
> My interpretations:
I'm not LSJ, but my answers:
> this minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a
> strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution
>
> - This strike is not declared during strike declaration, but rather
> announced before prevent/healing occurs.
"Resolve Strike" comes after "Choose Strike" (declaration), but "Note
that the effects of a strike are applied and then damage is resolved."
So I'd say yeah, you both declare your normal strikes, and then the
Winged Second gets to pile his strike on - before any damage is
resolved, in the same window where you'd apply environmental damage
like Carrion Crows.
This would mean that if the opposing minion plays a S:CE, there's no
opportunity for the Winged Second to play a strike card (or make a hand
strike), as the S:CE resolves first by rule in the Resolve Strike step.
> - The actual minion in combat can be at long or close range with no
> bearing on the WS minion's strike. The WS minion cannot use strikes
> that are 'only usable at long range', even if the original minion in
> combat is at long range.
Sure seems like it, thanks to the 'as if at close range' clause.
> Dodge will avoid this strike
>
> - and the strike of the actual minion in combat. A dodge avoids BOTH
> strikes.
Correct. The opposing minion doesn't get to play two strikes, so his
one dodge (which already avoids the combatant's strike) also covers the
WS strike.
> damage prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing
> minion
>
> - It is both strike damage and environmental damage. Anything that
> prevents either can prevent the damage. It is NOT part of the other
> minion's strike. A Skin of Steel could prevent the damage from either
> the original minion OR the WS minion, not both.
Right. It's treated as 'a strike' not 'as part of the strike', so
they'd be dealt with as separate, simultaneous strikes.
> This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal
> blood as a retainer could be.
>
> - includes effects like Weather Control and Mariel, Lady Thunder's
> speacial ability. The WS minion can be targeted by R strikes when the
> combat is occurring at long range. The WS is not considered to be at
> close range just because it strikes as if at close range. Effects that
> specifically target 'a retainer' will not trigger on the WS (cancelling
> a retainers abilities during combat, strikes that do extra damage to
> retainers, etc.).
Effects that are not inflicting damage or stealing blood from a
retainer cannot trigger on the WS, per card text, so cancelling
retainers abilities won't function - but strikes that do extra damage
to retainers would. Mask Empathy would not burn him, for instance.
> The WS minion can prevent damage as normal.
Sure seems like it, since it's damage being applied during a combat.
> Duration: until the end of combat. It will survive a Telepathic
> Tracking, but burn to a Psyche! or Hidden Lurker.
Yep.
> The WS is not considered "in combat" or "the opposing minion" for
> effects like superior Catatonic Fear. The WS cannot be the target of a
> Hidden Lurker or Cardinal Sin: Insubordination.
Correct - the WS allows a second minion to effect the combat (and be
effected by it) but is not 'in combat', 'the opposing minion',
'blocking' or 'acting' for whatever card text looks for such.
> Please correct/verify these points as necessary, and thanks in advance.
> We had a little buzz about this card at the last weekly game, and I
> know i'm going to see it in play soon.
-John Flournoy
Tom Duncan
>to retainers would.
Hypothetical "extra damage to rettainer" card: Strike: 2R damage, 3R if
targeting a retainer.
I would have to believe this strike would do 2R to the WS, who could be
chosen for the strikes AS IF a retainer, but is NOT a retainer when
checking for damage resolution.
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
He makes a Strike. It must be declared at some point during "Choose
Strike" as per 6.4.3.1. Since this is a Strike outside the normal Acting +
Blocking pair, this Strike could be chosen first, second, or third,
depending on the blocking Methuselah's whim, as per 1.6.1.5. An argument
could be made that the Acting Methuselah could force the WS Strike to be
declared non-first by playing his Strike card during the initial
opportunity to play cards in the "Choose Strike" phase.
All else is Correct. Note also that the WS cannot (in general) play Damage
Prevention cards.
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
adam....@gmail.com
What about cards that prevent certain types of strike cards?
Example:
Meth A Vamp (acting minion) gets into combat with Meth B Vamp #1. Meth
B Vamp #2 reacts plays Winged second.
Meth A Vamp plays Dodge (acting minion declares first).
Two questions:
1) Meth B Vamp #1 plays Scorpion Sting (can't dodge), what happens to
Vamp #2 strike?
2) Now visa versa.
Now I think the answer is just that you can dodge one but not the
other, however this leads to a different question...
Similar case to above, except that Meth A Vamp plays S:CE, and the
Winged Second Vamp has a card/effect that states No S:CE (dog pack,
oliver thrace). What happens there?
Granted this would be hard to pull off...
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> Couple of questions:
>
> What about cards that prevent certain types of strike cards?
>
> Example:
> Meth A Vamp (acting minion) gets into combat with Meth B Vamp #1. Meth
> B Vamp #2 reacts plays Winged second.
>
> Meth A Vamp plays Dodge (acting minion declares first).
>
> Two questions:
> 1) Meth B Vamp #1 plays Scorpion Sting (can't dodge), what happens to
> Vamp #2 strike?
> 2) Now visa versa.
>
> Now I think the answer is just that you can dodge one but not the
> other, however this leads to a different question...
>
Quoth LSJ:
> Jan Willem Wijsman wrote:
>
> > What happens if a minion dodges and the opposing minion plays scorpion
> > sting? Does the dodging minion get another strike or lose his strike?
>
> Neither. He still strikes: dodge. The scorpion sting is not cancelled
> by the dodge, so the dodger still takes damage.
The Dodge will protect Vamp A from any strikes that are dodgeable.
> Similar case to above, except that Meth A Vamp plays S:CE, and the
> Winged Second Vamp has a card/effect that states No S:CE (dog pack,
> oliver thrace). What happens there?
>
Only the WS's strike is part of combat. Combat Ends. I'm surprised LSJ
hasn't posted in this thread, you'd been given conflicting answers for
the first question on the last email.
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
LSJ
> Couple of questions:
Please snip the quoted stuff you're not using.
> What about cards that prevent certain types of strike cards?
>
> Example:
> Meth A Vamp (acting minion) gets into combat with Meth B Vamp #1. Meth
> B Vamp #2 reacts plays Winged second.
>
> Meth A Vamp plays Dodge (acting minion declares first).
>
> Two questions:
> 1) Meth B Vamp #1 plays Scorpion Sting (can't dodge), what happens to
> Vamp #2 strike?
> 2) Now visa versa.
Nothing. Scorpion Sting doesn't say "the opposing minion can't strike: dodge".
It says that the Scorpion Sting's effect will not be canceled by dodge.
> Now I think the answer is just that you can dodge one but not the
> other, however this leads to a different question...
>
> Similar case to above, except that Meth A Vamp plays S:CE, and the
> Winged Second Vamp has a card/effect that states No S:CE (dog pack,
> oliver thrace). What happens there?
Nothing. The Winged Second is not in combat.
--
That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet.
Keep a little and let a little come back to me.
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Tom Duncan
This is key. This means that the WS cannot prevent damage via combat
cards or Flak Jacket (Prevent 1 damage each combat.) However, WS could
burn Leather Jacket to prevent all damage from a strike.