Permacept question
Morgan Vening
a little for a while that I might be wrong. (This would also apply to
Permastealth, Permableed, whatever)
I have Generic Vampire 1 with a Sport Bike.
My predator tries to call a political action with GV2.
I declare I wish to block woth GV1.
Do I automatically count as having +1 Intercept? Or do I declare it's
activation, allowing the play of a transient intercept?
If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically
get around Intercept handlock?
The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a
Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no
declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1
Damage) can choose to strike with Hand.
It seems fairly obvious it counts permanently. But there's enough of a
question in my head that I felt I had to ask.
Morgan Vening
LSJ
> This is probably really straightforward, but it's been niggling at me
> a little for a while that I might be wrong. (This would also apply to
> Permastealth, Permableed, whatever)
>
> I have Generic Vampire 1 with a Sport Bike.
> My predator tries to call a political action with GV2.
>
> I declare I wish to block woth GV1.
> Do I automatically count as having +1 Intercept? Or do I declare it's
> activation, allowing the play of a transient intercept?
The former.
> If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically
> get around Intercept handlock?
Wait for more stealth or make an attempt with a different GV (one
without built-in intercept).
> The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a
> Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no
> declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1
> Damage) can choose to strike with Hand.
Note that the vampire voting yea or nay must bring all of his or
her votes to bear when doing so. A Justicar cannot vote merely
one against, for example.
You also cannot shoot for a wing shot with a .44 to do just 1 damage
or backhand someone with your Tiger Claws to do only 2 damage.
If you're blocking, you're using your intercept.
> It seems fairly obvious it counts permanently. But there's enough of a
> question in my head that I felt I had to ask.
Check.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
gra...@hotmail.com
> get around Intercept handlock?
Generally, if you think you'll run the risk of hand jamming on
Intercept, you need a way to cycle or to increase your hand size.
* The Barrens
* Dreams of the Sphinx
* Visit from the Capuchin
* Aura Reading
* Improvised Tactics (if anarch)
* Relentless Pursuit
* Velya the Flayer
* Distraction
* Flurry of Action
* Fragment of the Book of Nod
* Scrounging
* Elder Library
There may be others, but that's what I've come up with off the top of
my head. When I'm playing intercept, I always have some way of cycling
my intercept cards for that time that I get a 0 stealth deck as my
predator.
--> J
"Fry crack corn, and I don't care,
Leela crack corn, I still don't care,
Bender crack corn and he is great;
Take that you stupid corn!"
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com to email me
gra...@hotmail.com
> get around Intercept handlock?
Generally, if you think you'll run the risk of hand jamming on
gra...@hotmail.com
> get around Intercept handlock?
Generally, if you think you'll run the risk of hand jamming on
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no
> declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1
> Damage) can choose to strike with Hand.
>
Abstain and Null are the same thing.
Morgan Vening
I always thought they were seperate. In that an Abstaining Vampire has
explicitly said so (not many reasons), or was forced to do so
(inferior Kindred Coercion), and a null voting vampire was one that
just hadn't declared it's votes yet.
I always figured it went...
For +1
Against -1
Abstain +-0
Null N/A
I guess the crux here is, is there a difference between a vampire who
hasn't yet voted, and a vampire who has, for Michael Luther's special
ability? Can he 'change' a vote of someone who hasn't yet made one? If
so, why is there a significant wording difference from Ellison
Humbolt, when they were released only 3 months apart (according to
Lasombra's Index Page)
Morgan Vening
LSJ
news:8g7dr05pnumcdtdgq...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:38:55 -0500, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> <ethe...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote:
>
> >> The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a
> >> Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no
> >> declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1
> >> Damage) can choose to strike with Hand.
> >
> >Abstain and Null are the same thing.
>
> I always thought they were seperate. In that an Abstaining Vampire has
> explicitly said so (not many reasons), or was forced to do so
> (inferior Kindred Coercion), and a null voting vampire was one that
> just hadn't declared it's votes yet.
>
> I always figured it went...
> For +1
> Against -1
> Abstain +-0
> Null N/A
Null and Abstain are the same thing there -- The vampire isn't currently
voting.
A vampire who hasn't declared his votes is abstaining (until such time
as he casts his votes, if ever).
> I guess the crux here is, is there a difference between a vampire who
> hasn't yet voted, and a vampire who has, for Michael Luther's special
> ability? Can he 'change' a vote of someone who hasn't yet made one? If
Yes and no. He can change the vampire's disposition, but he can't make the
vampire cast his votes. That is, he can restrict the way the vampire's
votes can be cast if they are ever cast.
> so, why is there a significant wording difference from Ellison
> Humbolt, when they were released only 3 months apart (according to
> Lasombra's Index Page)
Ellison can force the vampire to cast his votes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
gustavo....@eresmas.net
Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no
declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1
Damage) can choose to strike with Hand."
But there is a rule that prevents you from playing intercept when not
needed, while there is no rule preventing you to cast a vote or playing
bewitching orations when you dont need it, or to strike for 7 damage
against a vampire with 1 blood counter. As they are completelly
different situations that are governed by completelly different part of
the rulebook, a comparison between those is completelly invalid.
salem
green counters mean 'in favour'
red counters mean 'against'
when you cast your votes, you take all the counters off the vampire
and put it in the 'referendum pot'.
some effects can change the colour of the counters, whether they are
in the pot or not. ('change the votes...'. eg: Michael Luther)
some other effects can actually make you pick up the counters and put
them in the pot.('cast the votes...' eg: Ellison Humboldt.)
does that sound about right?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
LSJ
> so we can kind of picture votes like counters sitting on the vampire.
> green counters mean 'in favour'
> red counters mean 'against'
>
> when you cast your votes, you take all the counters off the vampire
> and put it in the 'referendum pot'.
>
> some effects can change the colour of the counters, whether they are
> in the pot or not. ('change the votes...'. eg: Michael Luther)
> some other effects can actually make you pick up the counters and put
> them in the pot.('cast the votes...' eg: Ellison Humboldt.)
>
> does that sound about right?
It works, sure.
Some effects can move the counters from the pot back to the vampire,
as well.
I'd have used some sort of "color of the vampire" metaphor, since
that's more closely matching how I think of it, but the result
is the same.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Morgan Vening
>salem wrote:
>> so we can kind of picture votes like counters sitting on the vampire.
>> green counters mean 'in favour'
>> red counters mean 'against'
>>
>> when you cast your votes, you take all the counters off the vampire
>> and put it in the 'referendum pot'.
>>
>> some effects can change the colour of the counters, whether they are
>> in the pot or not. ('change the votes...'. eg: Michael Luther)
>> some other effects can actually make you pick up the counters and put
>> them in the pot.('cast the votes...' eg: Ellison Humboldt.)
>>
>> does that sound about right?
>
>It works, sure.
>
>Some effects can move the counters from the pot back to the vampire,
>as well.
>
>I'd have used some sort of "color of the vampire" metaphor, since
>that's more closely matching how I think of it, but the result
>is the same.
See, this is the problem I seem to have.
Kindred Coercion
Type: Reaction
Requires: Dominate
Cost: X blood
Only usable during a referendum.
[dom] Force X vampires to abstain from voting. This can cancel those
vampires' votes. The affected vampires cannot be older than this
reacting vampire.
At Inferior, above, if there isn't a difference between what I have
previously called a Null vote, and an Abstaining vote, it seems like
there is nothing to stop the vampire from "putting his counters back
in the pot" unless prohibited (Disarming Presence played or the like).
Hence the reason I believed a declaration could be Abstain, and was
just as binding as a Yea or Nay.
Morgan Vening
J
> previously called a Null vote, and an Abstaining vote, it seems like
> there is nothing to stop the vampire from "putting his counters back
> in the pot" unless prohibited (Disarming Presence played or the
like).
> Hence the reason I believed a declaration could be Abstain, and was
> just as binding as a Yea or Nay.
There is a difference between this and voluntarily abstaining. If you
choose to abstain, you can always throw your votes in whenever you
choose before the referendum has finished. If you are _forced_ to
abstain, the choice has been made for you, and you do not get that
option. Hence the term _forced_
-- J --
salem
>salem wrote:
[vote counters and tally pots]
>It works, sure.
>
>Some effects can move the counters from the pot back to the vampire,
>as well.
>
>I'd have used some sort of "color of the vampire" metaphor, since
>that's more closely matching how I think of it, but the result
>is the same.
if you use colour of the beads, then it's easier to tally the vote at
the end by just emptying the pot onto a clear space of table and
counting them. i'm temped to actually do something like this (in an
actual rather than metaphorical sense) for those times when voting
gets a tad messy and people forget where the voting's at and have to
recount it 4 or 5 times over the course of the referendum. :)
salem
<mor...@optusnet.com.au> scrawled:
>Kindred Coercion
>Type: Reaction
>Requires: Dominate
>Cost: X blood
>Only usable during a referendum.
>[dom] Force X vampires to abstain from voting. This can cancel those
>vampires' votes. The affected vampires cannot be older than this
>reacting vampire.
>
>At Inferior, above, if there isn't a difference between what I have
>previously called a Null vote, and an Abstaining vote, it seems like
>there is nothing to stop the vampire from "putting his counters back
>in the pot" unless prohibited (Disarming Presence played or the like).
>Hence the reason I believed a declaration could be Abstain, and was
>just as binding as a Yea or Nay.
you could think of it as :
"Force X vampires to abstain from voting {for the duration of this
action}." where the {} comes from how you handle Reaction and Action
Modifier cards during an action as written in the rulebook.