Rules Team Rulings 01-MAY-2004
LSJ
important for Code of Milan Suspended, for example), or can I use Business
Pressure before terms are set on Parity Shift to lower my pool for a Parity
Shift referendum?
A: No. The first thing that happens during a referendum is the setting of
terms. All the other effects are played during the Polling step. This
includes cards that are used "before votes are cast". (This is errata to
[6.3.2.1], making the setting of terms the only thing done in that step.
Polling now contains the "before votes are cast" step followed by the
general free-for-all voting step.)
Q: If I change my Thrown Sewer Lid (or Wind Dance, etc.) strike with Primal
Instincts, do I still get the optional press (or additional strike, etc.)
from the canceled strike?
A: No. Canceling a strike made with a strike card cancels the whole effect
of the card (although it cannot rewind time and cancel any maneuver already
used from that strike card - but note that in the case of canceling a
strike card that had been used to maneuver, the minion cannot choose
another strike, since the maneuver restricts him to using only that strike).
Q: When I play Blood Brother Ambush, Conscripted Statue, Malleable Visage,
etc. to cancel one combat and start a different one, does that new combat
start immediately, or can other effects still be played before that combat
begins? Does this also apply to the slave rule (when blocked, have a slave
enter combat instead)?
A: Combat starts immediately. This applies to invoking the slave rule as
well, yes.
Q: Can card-cycling effects (Barrens, Fragment, etc.) be used during the
"as played" window (so as to allow a player to draw into a Sudden or a
Direct Intervention to cancel the "as played" card)?
A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played. It is
before that card is replaced, even. The only cards that can be played "as"
another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the
time. (Not to be confused with the "as the action is announced" step, which
comes after the action card is played.) This is a reversal of previous rulings.
Q: What effect does Gambit Accepted have if the controller withdraws?
A: The predator gets a victory point. (Errata to the card.)
Q: What does Seeds of Corruption restrict?
A: When Seeds is on a vampire, everyone is restricted from using that
vampire's special ability and/or bonuses. Things that are only possible
because of card text are not possible. Things that card text makes
impossible are still impossible. (Errata to card text.) Note that this
errata matches the state of affairs before the February clarification (and
overturns that clarification). Note also that sect, title, and attribute
texts (Gargoyles' Slave status, Blood Brothers' Circles, etc.) are still
not affected by Seeds of Corruption.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Charles Lechasseur
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>Q: Can card-cycling effects (Barrens, Fragment, etc.) be used during the
>"as played" window (so as to allow a player to draw into a Sudden or a
>Direct Intervention to cancel the "as played" card)?
>A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played. It is
>before that card is replaced, even. The only cards that can be played "as"
>another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the
>time. (Not to be confused with the "as the action is announced" step, which
>comes after the action card is played.) This is a reversal of previous rulings.
question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets are
chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))? for example, if a
player plays Minion Tap, must he announce the amount of blood he is taking
and from which vampire before another Methuselah can play Sudden Reversal?
--
charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca
Wouter Kuyper
> Q: Can I burn the edge to gain a vote before terms are set (which is
> important for Code of Milan Suspended, for example), or can I use Business
> Pressure before terms are set on Parity Shift to lower my pool for a Parity
> Shift referendum?
> A: No. The first thing that happens during a referendum is the setting of
> terms. All the other effects are played during the Polling step. This
> includes cards that are used "before votes are cast". (This is errata to
> [6.3.2.1], making the setting of terms the only thing done in that step.
> Polling now contains the "before votes are cast" step followed by the
> general free-for-all voting step.)
>
>
Does this count for that Oxford location as well?
W
Kitzune
> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))? for example, if a
> player plays Minion Tap, must he announce the amount of blood he is taking
> and from which vampire before another Methuselah can play Sudden Reversal?
The player targeting one of his minion with minion tap must clearly
state for how much he's tapping before replacing and other players
responding to the minion tap.
This is covered somewhere in the rulesbook :)
LSJ
> question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets are
> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
During. All effects are announced as played.
LSJ
?
Provide any reasoning, no matter how tenous, for Oxford to be an exception
so that I can address the problem in the reasoning.
Darky
I'd say it's included in the 'All the other effects' batch
-Bram Vink
Charles Lechasseur
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>> question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets are
>> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
>
>During. All effects are announced as played.
meaning that the "as played" card can effectively be played at any time
during the playing, before OR after targets are announced?
LSJ
No. Only after. Everything about the play of a card is set/chosen/announced
when the card leaves your hand.
LSJ
> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>> question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets
>>>> are
>>>> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
>>>
>>> During. All effects are announced as played.
>>
>> meaning that the "as played" card can effectively be played at any time
>> during the playing, before OR after targets are announced?
>
> No. Only after. Everything about the play of a card is set/chosen/announced
> when the card leaves your hand.
Oh. I see. You were asking about the canceling card, not the canceled card.
I took your reference to "the "as played" card" to be the card being
canceled.
Sorry for the extra dance.
salem
scrawled:
>LSJ wrote:
>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>>> question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets
>>>>> are
>>>>> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
>>>>
>>>> During. All effects are announced as played.
>>>
>>> meaning that the "as played" card can effectively be played at any time
>>> during the playing, before OR after targets are announced?
>>
>> No. Only after. Everything about the play of a card is set/chosen/announced
>> when the card leaves your hand.
>
>Oh. I see. You were asking about the canceling card, not the canceled card.
>I took your reference to "the "as played" card" to be the card being
>canceled.
>Sorry for the extra dance.
are you going to answer it now, or did i just miss something? :) he
did end his sentence with a "?".....
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Wouter Kuyper
> Wouter Kuyper wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<y%Wkc.17303$Xj6.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >>Q: Can I burn the edge to gain a vote before terms are set (which is
> >>important for Code of Milan Suspended, for example), or can I use Business
> >>Pressure before terms are set on Parity Shift to lower my pool for a Parity
> >>Shift referendum?
> >>A: No. The first thing that happens during a referendum is the setting of
> >>terms. All the other effects are played during the Polling step. This
> >>includes cards that are used "before votes are cast". (This is errata to
> >>[6.3.2.1], making the setting of terms the only thing done in that step.
> >>Polling now contains the "before votes are cast" step followed by the
> >>general free-for-all voting step.)
> >>
> > Does this count for that Oxford location as well?
>
> ?
> Provide any reasoning, no matter how tenous, for Oxford to be an exception
> so that I can address the problem in the reasoning.
No reasoning, just making sure,..it would make this old Ă–xonians" deck useless
:-)
W
LSJ
> On Mon, 03 May 2004 00:11:34 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
> scrawled:
>>LSJ wrote:
>>>Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>>LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>>>Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>>>>question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
>>>>>During. All effects are announced as played.
>>>>
>>>>meaning that the "as played" card can effectively be played at any time
>>>>during the playing, before OR after targets are announced?
>>>
>>>No. Only after. Everything about the play of a card is set/chosen/announced
>>>when the card leaves your hand.
>>
>>Oh. I see. You were asking about the canceling card, not the canceled card.
>>I took your reference to "the "as played" card" to be the card being
>>canceled.
>>Sorry for the extra dance.
>
>
> are you going to answer it now, or did i just miss something? :) he
> did end his sentence with a "?".....
It's answered above.
Charles Lechasseur
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>LSJ wrote:
>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>>> question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets
>>>>> are
>>>>> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
>>>>
>>>> During. All effects are announced as played.
>>>
>>> meaning that the "as played" card can effectively be played at any time
>>> during the playing, before OR after targets are announced?
>>
>> No. Only after. Everything about the play of a card is set/chosen/announced
>> when the card leaves your hand.
>
>Oh. I see. You were asking about the canceling card, not the canceled card.
>I took your reference to "the "as played" card" to be the card being
>canceled.
>Sorry for the extra dance.
no worry. i just re-read what i asked the first time around and it wasn't
perfectly clear (since i mentioned "the card" near the end, without
specifying what card it was). sorry for the confusion.
Charles Lechasseur
salem_ch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>On Mon, 03 May 2004 00:11:34 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>scrawled:
>
>>LSJ wrote:
>>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>>> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
>>>>>> question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
<snip>
>>> No. Only after. Everything about the play of a card is set/chosen/announced
>>> when the card leaves your hand.
<snip>
>are you going to answer it now, or did i just miss something? :) he
>did end his sentence with a "?".....
he did. the "as played" card (DI, Sudden) must be played after the targets
are announced for the cancelled card.
Joshua Duffin
newest rulings:
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:y%Wkc.17303$Xj6.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Q: Can I burn the edge to gain a vote before terms are set (which is
> important for Code of Milan Suspended, for example), or can I use
Business
> Pressure before terms are set on Parity Shift to lower my pool for a
Parity
> Shift referendum?
> A: No. The first thing that happens during a referendum is the setting
of
> terms. All the other effects are played during the Polling step. This
> includes cards that are used "before votes are cast". (This is errata
to
> [6.3.2.1], making the setting of terms the only thing done in that
step.
> Polling now contains the "before votes are cast" step followed by the
> general free-for-all voting step.)
This eliminates the main benefit of the Oxford University in the "Shifty
Oxonians" deck of April 2003. And it makes things like Delaying Tactics
marginally more "bluffable" - since you can't legally play Delaying
Tactics before terms are set, if you're claiming that you have a DT in
hand to try to get the acting Methuselah to choose terms that you find
acceptable, the acting Meth can't say "well if you have the DT, play it
now, otherwise I won't believe you." Uh, not that that's all that
important a change. :-)
Nonetheless I applaud this ruling; I don't think it was very sensible
for general effects to be allowed before terms were set in a referendum.
> Q: If I change my Thrown Sewer Lid (or Wind Dance, etc.) strike with
Primal
> Instincts, do I still get the optional press (or additional strike,
etc.)
> from the canceled strike?
> A: No. Canceling a strike made with a strike card cancels the whole
effect
> of the card (although it cannot rewind time and cancel any maneuver
already
> used from that strike card - but note that in the case of canceling a
> strike card that had been used to maneuver, the minion cannot choose
> another strike, since the maneuver restricts him to using only that
strike).
I don't know if anyone ever actually *used* the Wind Dance/Primal
Instincts combo to get an additional (non-Dodge) strike from
Thaumaturgy, but you can't do it anymore. At least, it sounds like you
can't. LSJ, does this (as I think it does) mean that if you cancel the
*additional* strike: Dodge from superior Wind Dance, you lose the
additional strike entirely? Or is it like canceling a strike card used
to maneuver - the maneuver (or in this case additional strike) has
already been gained and the Primal Instincts can't "rewind time" to
remove it?
> Q: When I play Blood Brother Ambush, Conscripted Statue, Malleable
Visage,
> etc. to cancel one combat and start a different one, does that new
combat
> start immediately, or can other effects still be played before that
combat
> begins? Does this also apply to the slave rule (when blocked, have a
slave
> enter combat instead)?
> A: Combat starts immediately. This applies to invoking the slave rule
as
> well, yes.
Another excellent change IMO. This makes things like Voice of Madness
no longer usable when a Slave switches in for a blocked Tremere - it
kind of increases the "indivisibility" of the relevant effects. It also
probably won't come up too often, but I think it makes the game
mechanics more intuitive. (Well, I would think that...)
> Q: Can card-cycling effects (Barrens, Fragment, etc.) be used during
the
> "as played" window (so as to allow a player to draw into a Sudden or a
> Direct Intervention to cancel the "as played" card)?
> A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played. It
is
> before that card is replaced, even. The only cards that can be played
"as"
> another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at
the
> time. (Not to be confused with the "as the action is announced" step,
which
> comes after the action card is played.) This is a reversal of previous
rulings.
Wow, I didn't think this would ever actually be changed, since it's so
long ago now that the discussion about it took place. This removes the
ability to use Dreams of the Sphinx (or The Barrens) to draw cards to
find a Sudden Reversal when one of your other master cards is being
contested by someone else's play. It also means that you can't even
draw a Sudden to replace (say) your Delaying Tactics that someone else
played Direct Intervention on and use the Sudden on their DI - you can
only play a Sudden on that DI if you had it in hand already.
I'm not sure if this is intended to also reverse the "you can Wake to
Rewind Time an action card" ruling (though I suspect it is not). LSJ?
> Q: What effect does Gambit Accepted have if the controller withdraws?
> A: The predator gets a victory point. (Errata to the card.)
This makes games involving Gambit Accepted become "zero sum" rather than
"negative sum" in terms of VPs when the Gambit-playing Methuselah
withdraws...
> Q: What does Seeds of Corruption restrict?
> A: When Seeds is on a vampire, everyone is restricted from using that
> vampire's special ability and/or bonuses. Things that are only
possible
> because of card text are not possible. Things that card text makes
> impossible are still impossible. (Errata to card text.) Note that this
> errata matches the state of affairs before the February clarification
(and
> overturns that clarification). Note also that sect, title, and
attribute
> texts (Gargoyles' Slave status, Blood Brothers' Circles, etc.) are
still
> not affected by Seeds of Corruption.
It's kind of amazing how much this card's effects have been altered and
re-altered, considering how narrow (and little-played, I think) it is.
:-)
This restores "Seeds of Corruption + Uriah Winter" functionality and
makes Seeds actually "turn off" all the stuff that vampires' abilities
do without doing it "to themselves" (eg Agaitas' card-replacing,
Alexandra's Toreador-untapping, etc). Teach people to reprint
complicated cards without altering their texts, huh? ;-)
Josh
better late than never?
d. hathorn
On Sun, 2 May 2004, at 11:08am, LSJ wrote:
> Charles Lechasseur wrote:
> > question: is the "as played" card played before or after the targets are
> > chosen for the card (for cards that have (a) target(s))?
>
> During.
That's kind of a confusing answer. I presume I can wait until after the
active player finishes describing all the "as played" components before
announcing my own "as played" effect?
> All effects are announced as played.
So the sequence is:
1. Kindred Spirits is PLAYED
2. Effects (superior vs inferior, target of the bleed) are ANNOUNCED
3. "Direct Intervention window" closes
4. Kindred Spirits is REPLACED
5. Action is being ANNOUNCED - Seduction may be played
Is that right? It seems counter-intuitive that Seduction is not played in
#2. Was there a specific, unacceptable circumstance that motivated this
ruling?
LSJ
> I don't know if anyone ever actually *used* the Wind Dance/Primal
> Instincts combo to get an additional (non-Dodge) strike from
> Thaumaturgy, but you can't do it anymore. At least, it sounds like you
> can't. LSJ, does this (as I think it does) mean that if you cancel the
> *additional* strike: Dodge from superior Wind Dance, you lose the
> additional strike entirely?
This ruling has no effect on the fact that you'd lose the additional
strike entirely. You still lose it.
Or is it like canceling a strike card used
> to maneuver - the maneuver (or in this case additional strike) has
> already been gained and the Primal Instincts can't "rewind time" to
> remove it?
The additional dodge has already been gained, so if you cancel
the dodge, you still cannot use another additional strike
gaining effect, if that's what you mean.
> I'm not sure if this is intended to also reverse the "you can Wake to
> Rewind Time an action card" ruling (though I suspect it is not). LSJ?
It does not, correct.
LSJ
> So the sequence is:
>
> 1. Kindred Spirits is PLAYED
> 2. Effects (superior vs inferior, target of the bleed) are ANNOUNCED
> 3. "Direct Intervention window" closes
> 4. Kindred Spirits is REPLACED
> 5. Action is being ANNOUNCED - Seduction may be played
>
> Is that right? It seems counter-intuitive that Seduction is not played in
> #2. Was there a specific, unacceptable circumstance that motivated this
> ruling?
1 and 2 are the same (single) step, but otherwise correct.
The ruling stems from the topic being raised here and subsequently
placed on the RT list for review.
Reyda
"d. hathorn" <dhat...@swank.cs.uchicago.edu> wrote
> So the sequence is:
>
> 1. Kindred Spirits is PLAYED
> 2. Effects (superior vs inferior, target of the bleed) are ANNOUNCED
> 3. "Direct Intervention window" closes
> 4. Kindred Spirits is REPLACED
> 5. Action is being ANNOUNCED - Seduction may be played
>
> Is that right? It seems counter-intuitive that Seduction is not played in
> #2. Was there a specific, unacceptable circumstance that motivated this
> ruling?
No, Seduction has to be played on #5 for two reasons :
1-you may draw the seduction when you replace Kindred Spirits.
2-some people may argue that you "speed your play" and play direct
intervention AFTER you annonced the seduction.
Being tired of all those guys playing D.I. at the least credible moment, i
am in favor of the 5 step system above.
Kevin M.
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Q: Can card-cycling effects (Barrens, Fragment, etc.) be used during
>> the "as played" window (so as to allow a player to draw into a
>> Sudden or a Direct Intervention to cancel the "as played" card)?
>> A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played.
>> It is before that card is replaced, even. The only cards that can be
>> played "as" another one is played are the ones the players have in
>> their hands at the time. (Not to be confused with the "as the action
>> is announced" step, which comes after the action card is played.)
>> This is a reversal of previous rulings.
>
> Wow, I didn't think this would ever actually be changed, since it's so
> long ago now that the discussion about it took place. This removes
> the ability to use Dreams of the Sphinx (or The Barrens) to draw
> cards to find a Sudden Reversal when one of your other master cards
> is being contested by someone else's play. It also means that you
> can't even draw a Sudden to replace (say) your Delaying Tactics that
> someone else played Direct Intervention on and use the Sudden on
> their DI - you can only play a Sudden on that DI if you had it in
> hand already.
I don't think this is true.
Situation:
MethA, cards in hand: 123456+DelayingTactics
MethB, cards in hand: 123456+somevote
MethC, cards in hand, 123456+DI
MethB plays somevote, redraws. Terms are set.
Eventually, MethA plays DT, redraws a SuddenReversal.
MethC plays DI on the DT, redraws.
The Sudden is in MethA's hand when MethC plays the DI, which means that
MethA should be able to play his Sudden. I'm pretty sure this is correct,
based on the language of the RTR -- "The only cards that can be played 'as'
another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the
time."
> Josh
Kevin M.
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Snapcase
> Eventually, MethA plays DT, redraws a SuddenReversal.
> MethC plays DI on the DT, redraws.
> The Sudden is in MethA's hand when MethC plays the DI, which means that
> MethA should be able to play his Sudden. I'm pretty sure this is correct,
> based on the language of the RTR -- "The only cards that can be played 'as'
> another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the
> time."
I think the emphasized portion below contradicts this.
> A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played.
> *** It is before that card is replaced, even. ****
> The only cards that can be
> played "as" another one is played are the ones the players have in
> their hands at the time.
It would seem that DI/SR have to be played before the card's replaced,
so drawing into an SR after playing the DT (and having it DI'd) wouldn't
be possible.
--
-Snapcase
LSJ
Correct.
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > I don't know if anyone ever actually *used* the Wind Dance/Primal
> > Instincts combo to get an additional (non-Dodge) strike from
> > Thaumaturgy, but you can't do it anymore. At least, it sounds like
you
> > can't. LSJ, does this (as I think it does) mean that if you cancel
the
> > *additional* strike: Dodge from superior Wind Dance, you lose the
> > additional strike entirely?
>
> This ruling has no effect on the fact that you'd lose the additional
> strike entirely. You still lose it.
I'm confused - isn't that exactly what this ruling covers? Or does this
ruling in fact only cover canceling the *initial* Dodge from Wind Dance
with Primal Instincts?
You had confirmed in the past that an acting minion can play Wind Dance
at superior, and if the opposing minion gains at least one additional
strike, the acting minion can then play Primal Instincts to cancel the
choice of Dodge for his Wind Dance additional strike and choose a
different strike [LSJ 8-Sep-2003]:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3F5C7581.9070304%40white-wolf.com
Are you saying that that ruling stands, and the new 01-May-2004 ruling
is only saying that if you cancel the "normal" strike: Dodge from Wind
Dance, you lose the additional strike: Dodge?
> Or is it like canceling a strike card used
> > to maneuver - the maneuver (or in this case additional strike) has
> > already been gained and the Primal Instincts can't "rewind time" to
> > remove it?
>
> The additional dodge has already been gained, so if you cancel
> the dodge, you still cannot use another additional strike
> gaining effect, if that's what you mean.
No, I was trying to ask if, after the additional dodge is gained, it
cannot be "un-gained" by Primal Instincts even if you cancel the choice
of Dodge for that additional strike. Though I don't know if that last
sentence was any clearer...
> > I'm not sure if this is intended to also reverse the "you can Wake
to
> > Rewind Time an action card" ruling (though I suspect it is not).
LSJ?
>
> It does not, correct.
OK. So Wake and Forced Awakening are still playable in the "as played"
window of other cards (specifically, during actions). But you would now
not be able to Forced Awakening, draw a Rewind Time, and play that
Rewind Time at [tem] as an action card is played.
Josh
a fickle little twister
Jozxyqk
> Things that are only possible because of card text are not possible.
> Things that card text makes impossible are still impossible.
Nit picks:
"Blood hunts cannot be called on Muaziz."
Blood hunts are impossible to call on Muaziz, by card text.
Therefore, with Seeds of Corruption, it is still impossible to call
a Blood Hunt on Muaziz.
"Younger Tremere cannot block Aisling."
Therefore it is still impossible for Younger Tremere to block Aisling.
etc.
Obviously this is not your intent, but Seeds is very confusing as it
is currently ruled (even with this latest May 1 ruling).
Kevin M.
> Snapcase wrote:
>> In article <wyElc.17346$ph.11476@fed1read07>, Kevin M. says...
>>>Eventually, MethA plays DT, redraws a SuddenReversal.
>>>MethC plays DI on the DT, redraws.
>>
>>>The Sudden is in MethA's hand when MethC plays the DI, which means
>>>that MethA should be able to play his Sudden. I'm pretty sure this
>>>is correct, based on the language of the RTR -- "The only cards that
>>>can be played 'as' another one is played are the ones the players
>>>have in their hands at the time."
>>
>> I think the emphasized portion below contradicts this.
>>
>>>A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played.
>>>*** It is before that card is replaced, even. ****
>>>The only cards that can be played "as" another one is played are
>>>the ones the players have in their hands at the time.
>>
>> It would seem that DI/SR have to be played before the card's
>> replaced, so drawing into an SR after playing the DT (and having it DI'd)
>> wouldn't be possible.
>
> Correct.
Wow. That sucks. I didn't think this game's timing issues would ever
mirror that other game's timing issues.
LSJ, I don't suppose you can give us a line of reasoning as to why this was
changed in the first place? :(
<sigh> The game just got less happy.
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
Daneel
The latest errata prohibited the *vampire* from using his abilities.
The new errata addresses that issue, meaning that for example the
controller of Agaitas still won't be able to use his special, etc.
I'm not sure the new wording gives any more leeway in the direction
you mentioned than the previous one.
Bye,
Daneel
LSJ
> I'm confused - isn't that exactly what this ruling covers? Or does this
> ruling in fact only cover canceling the *initial* Dodge from Wind Dance
> with Primal Instincts?
The latter.
> You had confirmed in the past that an acting minion can play Wind Dance
> at superior, and if the opposing minion gains at least one additional
> strike, the acting minion can then play Primal Instincts to cancel the
> choice of Dodge for his Wind Dance additional strike and choose a
> different strike [LSJ 8-Sep-2003]:
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3F5C7581.9070304%40white-wolf.com
>
> Are you saying that that ruling stands, and the new 01-May-2004 ruling
> is only saying that if you cancel the "normal" strike: Dodge from Wind
> Dance, you lose the additional strike: Dodge?
Yes.
> No, I was trying to ask if, after the additional dodge is gained, it
> cannot be "un-gained" by Primal Instincts even if you cancel the choice
> of Dodge for that additional strike. Though I don't know if that last
> sentence was any clearer...
Right.
> OK. So Wake and Forced Awakening are still playable in the "as played"
> window of other cards (specifically, during actions). But you would now
> not be able to Forced Awakening, draw a Rewind Time, and play that
> Rewind Time at [tem] as an action card is played.
Right.
LSJ
It is the RT's intent, if not the original designer(s)'(s) intent.
Magnus
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Wow. That sucks. I didn't think this game's timing issues would ever
> mirror that other game's timing issues.
>
> LSJ, I don't suppose you can give us a line of reasoning as to why this was
> changed in the first place? :(
>
> <sigh> The game just got less happy.
I think the Ercyies Fragment originated that errata. It really sucks
that the other player can use it to draw into a DI during your action.
I must say, though, that I also think this general change to the rules
is bad for the game. It really adds to the game that you can draw into
*just* the right card from your own deck.
If the Fragment is such a pain, I悲 rather see errata for using cards
in play to draw into more cards, such as the Ercyies Fragment,
Fragment of the Book Nod, Dreams of the Sphinx, etc...
Magnus
Joshua Duffin
> > Snapcase wrote:
[LSJ wrote]
> >>>A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played.
> >>>*** It is before that card is replaced, even. ****
> >>>The only cards that can be played "as" another one is played are
> >>>the ones the players have in their hands at the time.
> >>
> >> It would seem that DI/SR have to be played before the card's
> >> replaced, so drawing into an SR after playing the DT (and having it
DI'd)
> >> wouldn't be possible.
> >
> > Correct.
>
> Wow. That sucks. I didn't think this game's timing issues would ever
> mirror that other game's timing issues.
>
> LSJ, I don't suppose you can give us a line of reasoning as to why
this was
> changed in the first place? :(
>
> <sigh> The game just got less happy.
Are you familiar with how the timing worked for these things *before*
this ruling? It was, IMO, more complicated (and bizarre) than it is
now.
Under the former ruling, if you had The Barrens and Dreams of the Sphinx
in play, and someone else played The Barrens (contesting with you), you
were *not* allowed to tap Barrens to discard and draw to look for a
Sudden, because the Barrens was "being contested" as soon as the other
Barrens was played. But you *were* allowed to tap Dreams to increase
your hand size to look for a Sudden "as the other Barrens was played".
If, in this same window, someone *else* played a Sudden on the
contesting Barrens, your Barrens is now *not* "being contested" - so you
can tap The Barrens, draw a Sudden from that, and Sudden the other
player's Sudden - making your Barrens contested after all.
If that's not convoluted and weird, I don't know what is. To me, the
new ruling is a model of clarity and intuitiveness by comparison.
Making the "as played" window restricted solely to effects that say to
use them "as a card is played" makes sense to me: the game already has
"interrupts" (Sudden, DI, etc); it seems cleaner to restrict only those
effects to be usable in the "interrupt window" rather than allowing some
(but not all) other effects to also be used at the same time.
Josh
coffee... delicious coffee...
Colin McGuigan
> It is the RT's intent, if not the original designer(s)'(s) intent.
I'm wondering: why not just have Seeds of Corruption remove all of a
vampire's special text? Is there some horrible abuse here I'm missing?
--Colin McGuigan
Jozxyqk
> Jozxyqk wrote:
>> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Q: What does Seeds of Corruption restrict?
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>Things that are only possible because of card text are not possible.
>>>Things that card text makes impossible are still impossible.
>>
>>
>> Nit picks:
>>
>> "Blood hunts cannot be called on Muaziz."
>>
>> Blood hunts are impossible to call on Muaziz, by card text.
>> Therefore, with Seeds of Corruption, it is still impossible to call
>> a Blood Hunt on Muaziz.
>>
>> "Younger Tremere cannot block Aisling."
>>
>> Therefore it is still impossible for Younger Tremere to block Aisling.
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> Obviously this is not your intent, but Seeds is very confusing as it
>> is currently ruled (even with this latest May 1 ruling).
> It is the RT's intent, if not the original designer(s)'(s) intent.
It is the RT's intent that, if Aisling Sturbridge has a Seeds on her,
Younger Tremere can still not block her? (since it is "impossible, and
still impossible")
Kevin M.
> Are you familiar with how the timing worked
> for these things *before* this ruling?
Of course. :)
> It was, IMO, more complicated (and bizarre) than it is now.
>
> Under the former ruling, if you had The Barrens and Dreams of the
> Sphinx in play, and someone else played The Barrens (contesting with
> you), you were *not* allowed to tap Barrens to discard and draw to
> look for a Sudden, because the Barrens was "being contested" as soon
> as the other Barrens was played. But you *were* allowed to tap
> Dreams to increase your hand size to look for a Sudden "as the other
> Barrens was played". If, in this same window, someone *else* played a
> Sudden on the contesting Barrens, your Barrens is now *not* "being
> contested" - so you can tap The Barrens, draw a Sudden from that, and
> Sudden the other player's Sudden - making your Barrens contested
> after all.
>
> If that's not convoluted and weird, I don't know what is. To me,
> the new ruling is a model of clarity and intuitiveness by comparison.
If you read my previous posts, this isn't what I have an issue with.
> Making the "as played" window restricted solely to effects that say to
> use them "as a card is played" makes sense to me: the game already has
> "interrupts" (Sudden, DI, etc); it seems cleaner to restrict only
> those effects to be usable in the "interrupt window" rather than
> allowing some (but not all) other effects to also be used at the same
> time.
What's going to happen (sometimes) is going to suck, and that is player's
asking other players to PLAY THE GAME as if it were that other card game,
i.e. do not redraw until all Sudden/DI/Rewind Time possibilities are
finished.
Example:
MethA, cards in hand: 123456+DelayingTactics
MethB, cards in hand: 123456+somevote
MethC, cards in hand, 123456+DI
- MethB plays somevote, waits to see if DI or RT are played, they aren't, he
redraws.
- Terms are set.
- Eventually, MethA plays DT, waits to see if DI or RT are played.
- MethC plays DI on the DT, waits to see if SR is played.
- Everyone declines to play SR.
- MethC & MethA redraw.
I'm not saying that this rule sucks straight out. As you say, it simplifies
the reasoning of what's happening to the game state. What I'm saying is
that I wish there was some way to avoid playing this game like that other
game, which *will* happen to certain players (due to their bad reputaitons),
from certain players (due to their not trusting anyone), and in certain
situations (finals, mainly).
<sigh> OK, I'm picking a nit, I admit it. I'll shut up already (re: other
thread).
> Josh
> coffee... delicious coffee...
Joshua Duffin
> I'm not saying that this rule sucks straight out. As you say, it
simplifies
> the reasoning of what's happening to the game state. What I'm saying
is
> that I wish there was some way to avoid playing this game like that
other
> game, which *will* happen to certain players (due to their bad
reputaitons),
> from certain players (due to their not trusting anyone), and in
certain
> situations (finals, mainly).
OK, you're right about that, and it is annoying. The thing, to me, is
that this kind of "by the book" timing play was already necessary to
make sure people didn't skip over "as played" phases; people just
skipped it a lot of the time. The fact that redrawing is prohibited
during the "do something as a card is played" bit makes the existence of
the phase more obvious, and it will probably be tedious sometimes when
people have to ask about each card played. But I do think it's better
than what we had before.
Josh
picking a nit where the rain gets in
Frederick Scott
> I must say, though, that I also think this general change to the rules
> is bad for the game. It really adds to the game that you can draw into
> *just* the right card from your own deck.
"Your milage MAY vary" - and it does.
"Godlike luck" is always fun, of course. But I don't play games of
strategy, put all my thought, wisdom, and experience (such as they
are) into making my best deck just so I can have the thrill of triumphing
because of...top decking. So help me, I guess I'm the kind of guy who
likes to his victories to come from good planning more than incredible
luck.
And don't forget, it really detracts from the game when you make a
perfect play just to have your opponent top-deck a DI at the perfect
moment. I'm not sure why I ought to mind that there's less of a
chance of that, now.
Fred
Noal McDonald
> >>Eventually, MethA plays DT, redraws a SuddenReversal.
> >>MethC plays DI on the DT, redraws.
>
> >>The Sudden is in MethA's hand when MethC plays the DI, which means that
> >>MethA should be able to play his Sudden. I'm pretty sure this is correct,
> >>based on the language of the RTR -- "The only cards that can be played 'as'
> >>another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the
> >>time."
> >
> > I think the emphasized portion below contradicts this.
> >
> >>A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played.
> >>*** It is before that card is replaced, even. ****
> >>The only cards that can be
> >>played "as" another one is played are the ones the players have in
> >>their hands at the time.
> >
> > It would seem that DI/SR have to be played before the card's replaced,
> > so drawing into an SR after playing the DT (and having it DI'd) wouldn't
> > be possible.
>
> Correct.
What about if I crack the acting player upside the head with a 10 cell
Maglight and knock him out before he has a chance to replace his card?
Then I'd have all the time in the world to draw into the DI/SR... :-)
Regards,
Noal
Noal McDonald
> If that's not convoluted and weird, I don't know what is.
Agreed. When I read the ruling, I thought nothing of it. Just toes the
party line that the change to Heidelburgh started years ago.
> coffee... delicious coffee...
mmmm.....coffee....be right back.
Regards,
Noal
Raille
"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:bb705c59.04051...@posting.google.com...
That only works when they don't strike dodge or prevent the damage.
Raille
Kevin M.
> What about if I crack the acting player upside the head with a 10 cell
> Maglight and knock him out before he has a chance to replace his card?
>
> Then I'd have all the time in the world to draw into the DI/SR... :-)
And THIS drivel is a more "on-topic" post than a VTES eBay auction?
:) ;D ;) =D :-) %\)
> Regards,
> Noal
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
Frederick Scott
>
> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > What about if I crack the acting player upside the head with a 10 cell
> > Maglight and knock him out before he has a chance to replace his card?
> >
> > Then I'd have all the time in the world to draw into the DI/SR... :-)
>
> And THIS drivel is a more "on-topic" post than a VTES eBay auction?
At least it's actually about playing the game, as opposed to making
a buck. To understand the concept of topicality on Usenet, which was
created and designed to facilitate discussion, as opposed to selling
things, you have to observe that distinction.
Fred