[LSJ] The Definitive word on Seeds of Corruption
Mike Ooi
how it affects vampires concerning their text:
Clarifications and Rulings
"Special ability" includes all non-sect, non-title text. (note that this
only means that the affected vampire cannot do anything that he is allowed
to do only by special ability - not that he can now overcome some special
restriction. Assamites still cannot commit diablerie, for example) [LSJ
19970801]
This is still somewhat confusing as to what constitutes a restriction, as
some texts "suggest" weaknesses but not necessarily restrictions. I'm
actually serious on this one. Maybe it would be easier to understand if we
could get a ruling on how it affects each of the following vampires. This
list could get put in the FAQ/FOC/FUQ.
1. Franciscus Caitiff 1
2. Uriah Winter Caitiff 1
3. Igo The Hungry Caitiff 1
4. Royce Pander 1
5. Angela Decker Pander 1
6. Navar McClaren Caitiff 1
7. Basil Pander 1
8. Nik Caitiff 1
9. Huang, Blood Cultist Pander 1
10. Antoinette DuChamp Caitiff 1
11. Julius Caitiff 1
12. Smudge the Ignored Caitiff 1
13. Hasina Kesi Caitiff 1
14. March Halcyon Pander 1
15. Marciana Giovanni, Investigator Giovanni 2
20. Spleen, Georgio Gutterpunk Ravnos 2
22. Magdelena Schaefer Caitiff 2
26. Christine Boscacci Pander 2
35. Gillian Krader Pander 2
45. Fida'i Assamite 2
46. Vasilis, The Traitor of Don Cruez Brujah 2
47. Mitchell, The Headhunter Pander 2
55. Leon Gangrel-Antitribu 3
58. Lena Rowe Pander 3
66. Lazar Dobrescu Ravnos 3
68. Rex, The Necronomist Pander 3
73. Chandler Hungerford Gangrel 3
79. Zoe Malkavian 3
83. Watenda Malkavian 3
89. Blythe Candeleria Tremere 3
90. Dan Murdock Caitiff 3
92. Sarah Brando Brujah-Antitribu 3
97. Richard Tauber, Ayelea's Puppet Tremere-Antitribu 4
102. Hugo Brujah-Antitribu 4
108. Hadrian Garrick Followers of Set 4
113. Ramona Gangrel 4
118. Hector Sosa Brujah 4
120. Idalia, Prophet of Guadalahara Malkavian-Antitribu 4
121. Jimmy Dunn Pander 4
123. Aabbt Kindred Followers of Set 4
129. Anka, Priestess of Thorns Ravnos 4
134. Peter Blaine Ventrue-Antitribu 4
139. Parmenides Assamite 4
141. Chas Giovanni Tello Giovanni 4
142. Black Cat Brujah 5
147. Muriel Foucade Malkavian-Antitribu 5
148. Jazz Wentworth Ventrue 5
153. Vincent Day, Paladin and Paragon Ventrue-Antitribu 5
155. Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets Giovanni 5
159. Melissa Barton Ventrue 5
165. Yusef, Scribe of Alamut Assamite 5
173. Khalil Ravana Ravnos 5
174. Grendel - The Worm Eaten Nosferatu 5
175. Dedefra Followers of Set 5
176. Aisling Sturbridge Tremere 5
178. Calebros, The Martyr Nosferatu 5
180. Volker, The Puppet Prince Brujah 5
182. Victoria Malkavian 5
183. Rigby, Crusade Vanguard Brujah-Antitribu 5
184. Ranjan Rishi, Camarilla Scholar Ventrue 5
188. Cicatriz Nosferatu-Antitribu 5
189. Sabine Lafitte Tremere 5
190. Tiberius, The Scandelmonger Nosferatu 5
191. Nakova, Advocate of Golconda Ventrue 6
192. Aisha Followers of Set 6
193. Luther Gangrel-Antitribu 6
196. Sela Brujah-Antitribu 6
198. Aurora Van Brande, Paladin Lasombra 6
199. Zack North Gangrel 6
200. Violet Tremain Tzimisce 6
201. Lydia Van Cuelen Tremere 6
202. Tusk - Talebearer Nosferatu 6
205. Hesha Ruhadze Followers of Set 6
207. Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon Followers of Set 6
208. Jalal Sayad Assamite 6
209. Gaspare Giovanni Giovanni 6
211. Lisette Vizquel Lasombra 6
215. Talley, the Hound Lasombra 6
216. Bianca Brujah 6
217. Jost Werner Toreador-Antitribu 6
218. Vaclav Petalengro Ravnos 6
221. Zahir, Hand of the Silsila Assamite 6
222. Dylan Ventrue-Antitribu 6
223. Stefano Giovanni Giovanni 6
224. Rafaele Giovanni Giovanni 6
225. Quira, The Bitch Queen Malkavian-Antitribu 6
226. Heather Florent, The Opportunist Ventrue 6
227. Christanius Lionel, The Mad Chronicler Nosferatu-Antitribu 6
228. Joaquina Amaya Ravnos 6
230. Rake Brujah 6
232. Adrianne Toreador 6
233. Dancin' Dana Malkavian 6
234. Reverend Blackwood Tremere-Antitribu 6
235. Sigrid Bekker Toreador 6
236. Corine Marcon Tzimisce 6
237. Kalinda Assamite 6
238. Radeyah Toreador 6
239. Luccia Paciola Ventrue 6
240. Julian Sanders Brujah-Antitribu 6
242. Elisabetta Romano Tremere 6
243. Victoria Ash Toreador 6
244. Sheila Mezarin Toreador-Antitribu 6
246. Ozmo Malkavian 6
247. Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro Malkavian 6
248. Saxum, Master of Slaves Gargoyles 6
249. Petru Sipos Ravnos 7
250. Gillespi Giovanni Giovanni 7
251. Theo Bell Brujah 7
252. Danny Larkshill Followers of Set 7
254. Omaya Gangrel-Antitribu 7
256. Greta Kircher Toreador-Antitribu 7
257. Muaziz, Archon of Ulugh Beg Tremere 7
258. Eliott Sinclair Toreador 7
260. Melek Assamite 7
261. Andrea Giovanni Giovanni 7
262. Murat Nosferatu 7
264. Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit Nosferatu-Antitribu 7
265. Tariq, The Silent Assamite 7
266. Richter, The Templar of Du Mont Brujah-Antitribu 7
269. Dragos Tzimisce 7
270. Tatiana Romanov Toreador 7
271. Mariel - Lady Thunder Malkavian 7
272. Parnassus Assamite 7
274. Blaise Gangrel-Antitribu 7
275. Dominique Ventrue-Antitribu 7
276. Jan Pieterzoon Ventrue 7
277. Kendrick Nosferatu-Antitribu 7
278. Gunther - Beast Lord Gangrel 7
279. Iliana Gangrel 7
280. Astrid Thomas Tremere 7
281. Nikolaus Vermeulen Nosferatu 7
282. Sebastian Marley Nosferatu 7
283. Qufur am-Heru Followers of Set 7
284. Zachary Gangrel-Antitribu 7
285. Egothha Harbingers of Skulls 7
286. Carlotta Giovanni Giovanni 7
287. Kite Malkavian-Antitribu 7
289. Amelia Brujah-Antitribu 7
290. Sarrasine Followers of Set 7
291. Natalia Ravnos 7
292. Bryan Van Duesen Tremere-Antitribu 7
293. Rebekka, Chantry Elder of Munich Tremere 8
294. Enzo Giovanni, Pentex Board of Directors Giovanni 8
295. Constanza Vinti Brujah 8
296. Makarios, The Seducer Toreador 8
297. Virgil Malkavian-Antitribu 8
298. Anatole, Prophet of Gehenna Malkavian 8
299. Amadeo Nosferatu 8
300. Selma - The Repugnant Nosferatu 8
301. Sascha Vykos, The Angel of Caine Tzimisce 8
302. Tereza Rostas Ravnos 8
303. Bajazet al-Nasir Assamite 8
304. Tura Vaughn Brujah 8
307. Gustav Mallenhous Ventrue-Antitribu 8
308. Cornelius Ottavio Malkavian 8
309. Amisa Followers of Set 8
310. Pochtli Giovanni 8
311. Donal O'Connor Brujah 8
312. Ian Forestal Tremere-Antitribu 8
313. Marcellus Toreador 8
314. Marianna Giovanni 8
315. Ellen Fence, the Tracker Gangrel-Antitribu 8
316. Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakech Followers of Set 8
317. Fatima al-Faqadi Assamite 8
318. Jacko Brujah-Antitribu 8
319. Gratiano Lasombra 8
320. Akram Brujah 8
322. Theron Malkavian-Antitribu 8
323. Anton Tzimisce 8
324. Miller Delmardigan, Teacher of Bahari Toreador-Antitribu 8
325. Anson Toreador 8
326. Gabrin Ravnos 8
327. Dr. Jest Malkavian 8
328. Husamettin Assamite 8
329. Little Tailor of Prague Tzimisce 8
330. Calebos Nosferatu-Antitribu 8
331. Quinton McDonnell Gangrel 8
332. Meshenka Tzimisce 8
333. Haakon Mortensen Gangrel-Antitribu 8
334. Faruq Gangrel 8
335. Justine, Elder of Dallas Tremere 8
336. Sylvester Simms Malkavian 8
337. Ebanezer Roush Nosferatu 8
338. Lucita Lasombra 8
339. Miranda Sanova Brujah 8
340. Intisar Followers of Set 8
341. Stravinsky Tzimisce 9
342. Francisco Domingo de Polonia Lasombra 9
343. Al-Ashrad, Amr of Alamut Assamite 9
344. Antonio Delgado Lasombra 9
345. Natasha Volfchek Ventrue 9
346. Wilhelm Waldburg Ventrue 9
348. Roxanne, Rectrix of the 13th Floor Malkavian 9
349. Donatien Toreador-Antitribu 9
350. Bindusara, Historian of the Kindred Ventrue 9
351. Javier Montoya Tremere 9
352. Imogen Malkavian-Antitribu 9
353. Lazarus Tremere 9
354. Marty Lechtansi Nosferatu 9
355. Kyle Strathcona, Cardinal of Canada Ventrue-Antitribu 9
356. Darius Styx Ravnos 9
357. Spiridonas Tremere 9
358. Crusher Brujah 9
359. Tegyrius, Vizier Assamite 9
360. Ankla Hotep Ravnos 9
361. Ethan Locke Tremere-Antitribu 9
362. Suhailah Ventrue 9
363. Melisande Toreador-Antitribu 9
364. Vasantasena Malkavian-Antitribu 9
365. Ambrogino Giovanni Giovanni 9
366. Khay'tall, Snake of Eden Followers of Set 9
368. Kostantin, Baro of the Caravan Ravnos 9
369. Ingrid Rossler Gangrel 9
370. Saqqaf, Keeper of the Grand Temple of Set Followers of Set 9
371. Quentin Ventrue-Antitribu 9
372. Salinger Brujah-Antitribu 9
373. Qadir ul-Ghani Assamite 9
374. Alvaro, The Scion of Angelica Lasombra 9
375. Helena Casimir Ventrue 9
376. Andreas - Bard of Crete Toreador 9
377. Katarina Gangrel 9
378. Klaus van der Veken Toreador 9
379. Nefertiti Followers of Set 10
380. Cailean Nosferatu-Antitribu 10
381. Bronwen Brujah-Antitribu 10
382. Angus - The Unruled Gangrel 10
383. Lambach Tzimisce 10
384. Anneke Toreador 10
385. Silvia Giovanni Giovanni 10
386. Samantha Gangrel-Antitribu 10
387. Nehsi Followers of Set 10
388. Francois Villon Toreador 10
389. Yong-Sun, Harmonist Nosferatu-Antitribu 10
390. Regina Giovanni, The Right Hand of Augustus Giovanni 10
391. Democritus Ventrue 10
392. Basilia Gangrel 10
393. Queen Anne Ventrue 10
394. Masika Toreador 10
395. Lucian Malkavian 10
396. Matteus, Flesh Sculptor Toreador-Antitribu 10
397. Thetmes, Caliph of Alamut Assamite 10
398. Ivan Krenyenko Ravnos 10
399. Goratrix Tremere-Antitribu 10
400. Angelica, The Canonicus Lasombra 10
401. Aziz, Dammar of Istanbul Assamite 10
402. Wynn Gangrel 10
403. Ambrosio Luis Moncada, Plenipotentiary Lasombra 10
404. Appolonius Brujah 10
405. Cassandra, Magus Prime Tremere 10
406. Don Cruez - The Idealist Brujah 10
407. Ayelea, The Manipulator Tremere-Antitribu 10
408. Spider-Killer Ravnos 10
409. Hannibal Malkavian-Antitribu 10
410. Ulugh Beg, The Watcher Tremere 10
411. Lucretia - Cess Queen Nosferatu 10
412. Kemintiri Followers of Set 10
413. Genevieve Gangrel-Antitribu 10
414. Lazverinus, Thrall of Lambach Ventrue-Antitribu 10
415. Stanislava Gangrel 11
416. Ezmerelda Ravnos 11
417. Leandro Malkavian 11
418. Sutekh, The Dark God Followers of Set 11
419. Harrod Nosferatu 11
420. Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd Assamite 11
421. Alexandra Toreador 11
422. Augustus Giovanni Giovanni 11
423. Etrius Tremere 11
425. Arika Ventrue 11
Vampires without special text, and vampires who were merely (Blood Cursed)
were not included.
-Mike Ooi
LSJ
>
> I would greatly appreciate a definitive ruling on Seeds of Corruption and
> how it affects vampires concerning their text:
>
> Clarifications and Rulings
>
> "Special ability" includes all non-sect, non-title text. (note that this
> only means that the affected vampire cannot do anything that he is allowed
> to do only by special ability - not that he can now overcome some special
> restriction. Assamites still cannot commit diablerie, for example) [LSJ
> 19970801]
>
> This is still somewhat confusing as to what constitutes a restriction, as
> some texts "suggest" weaknesses but not necessarily restrictions. I'm
> actually serious on this one. Maybe it would be easier to understand if we
> could get a ruling on how it affects each of the following vampires. This
> list could get put in the FAQ/FOC/FUQ.
If the text "ability" allows the vampire to do something he cannot normally
do by the stock rules (bleed for a different amount, defect, make a
non-hand strike, take a cardless non-prey-targetting-bleed action, etc.) it
is a special ability. Special abilities are removed by Seeds.
If the text "ability" prevents the vampire from doing something he could
normally do by the stock rules, it is a restriction. Restrictions are not
overcome by Seeds.
The vast majority of the vampires on your list (which seems to list all of the
vampires with any text on them at all beyond titles and sect) are "answered"
trivially from the ruling above. If any of them still pose a question to you,
feel free to elaborate on the confusion found in the card's text.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Sten During
>
>
> If the text "ability" allows the vampire to do something he cannot normally
> do by the stock rules (bleed for a different amount, defect, make a
> non-hand strike, take a cardless non-prey-targetting-bleed action, etc.) it
> is a special ability. Special abilities are removed by Seeds.
>
> If the text "ability" prevents the vampire from doing something he could
> normally do by the stock rules, it is a restriction. Restrictions are not
> overcome by Seeds.
>
Uriah Winters special. Is it a restriction or an ability? Antoinette duChamps
special?
Uriahs 'ability' to switch controller may be considered an ability by some,
but most players would consider being forced to pay more blood in order
to play cards a restriction, even though strict card-text actually grants them
the ability to pay extra blood for taking a certain action, which semantically
could be seen as an ability rather than a restriction.
Sten During
--
NetGuide Scandinavia AB http://www.netg.se/
Tankegangen 4 in...@netg.se
417 56 Goteborg Phone:+46 - (0)31 - 50 79 45
Sweden Fax: +46 - (0)31 - 50 79 39
Halcyan 2
>special?
Both special abilities (not restrictions).
>Uriahs 'ability' to switch controller may be considered an ability by some,
>but most players would consider being forced to pay more blood in order
>to play cards a restriction, even though strict card-text actually grants
>them
>the ability to pay extra blood for taking a certain action, which
>semantically
>could be seen as an ability rather than a restriction.
Well, there are always cornercases where disadvantages can become helpful and
advantages can become troublesome.
This isn't an exhaustive list, but let's try to drum up some examples of things
that *are* restrictions:
#1. (Old Assamite card text prohibiting diablerie)
#2. Not being contestable (Jimmy Dunn, Fi'dai, and Aabt Kindred)
#3. Aabt Kindred still cannot perform directed actions w/o Nefertiti.
#4. Beast cannot do action-card stuff, recruit allies, use equipment/retainers.
#5. Gillian Krader cannot do political allies. (I know it's "actions" and I
guess I must have put the wrong word the first time. I thought it was amusing
the way I originally wrote it though!)
#6. Lena Rowe still cannot do political actions to gain titles or gain a title.
#7. If SoC on Moncada, he loses all his text except the cannot block part.
#8. Navar still cannot block older vampires.
#9. Volker still cannot block Primogen.
In general, the key word you look for is "cannot" and see if the text refers to
what that vampire cannot do. (Not what other vampires cannot do. The vampire
with the cannot text is the actor).
* Note that technically, you can reword many negative special abilities to a
cannot form: Igo cannot gain the normal +1 stealth from hunting, Blythe cannot
use the normal 1 strength against Malkavians (or something similar), Rex cannot
play combat cards unless he pays an additional blood. But it doesn't really
work that way (don't ask me why).
So...did I miss any other restrictions?
Halcyan 2
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > If the text "ability" allows the vampire to do something he cannot normally
> > do by the stock rules (bleed for a different amount, defect, make a
> > non-hand strike, take a cardless non-prey-targetting-bleed action, etc.) it
> > is a special ability. Special abilities are removed by Seeds.
> >
> > If the text "ability" prevents the vampire from doing something he could
> > normally do by the stock rules, it is a restriction. Restrictions are not
> > overcome by Seeds.
> >
>
> Uriah Winters special. Is it a restriction or an ability? Antoinette duChamps
> special?
>
> Uriahs 'ability' to switch controller may be considered an ability by some,
> but most players would consider being forced to pay more blood in order
> to play cards a restriction, even though strict card-text actually grants them
> the ability to pay extra blood for taking a certain action, which semantically
> could be seen as an ability rather than a restriction.
Uriah's "defect" is an ability - minions cannot switch controllers by the stock
rules.
Antoinette DuChamp's "burn additional blood" is an ability - minions do not burn
additional blood by the stock rules.
LSJ
> >Uriah Winters special. Is it a restriction or an ability? Antoinette duChamps
> >special?
>
> Both special abilities (not restrictions).
Correct.
> This isn't an exhaustive list, but let's try to drum up some examples of things
> that *are* restrictions:
>
> #1. (Old Assamite card text prohibiting diablerie)
>
> #2. Not being contestable (Jimmy Dunn, Fi'dai, and Aabt Kindred)
That's "Fida'i" and "Aabbt", BTW. :-)
> #3. Aabt Kindred still cannot perform directed actions w/o Nefertiti.
>
> #4. Beast cannot do action-card stuff, recruit allies, use equipment/retainers.
>
> #5. Gillian Krader cannot do political allies. (I know it's "actions" and I
> guess I must have put the wrong word the first time. I thought it was amusing
> the way I originally wrote it though!)
>
> #6. Lena Rowe still cannot do political actions to gain titles or gain a title.
>
> #7. If SoC on Moncada, he loses all his text except the cannot block part.
And he doesn't lose his title, of course.
> #8. Navar still cannot block older vampires.
>
> #9. Volker still cannot block Primogen.
Correct.
> In general, the key word you look for is "cannot" and see if the text refers to
> what that vampire cannot do. (Not what other vampires cannot do. The vampire
> with the cannot text is the actor).
>
> * Note that technically, you can reword many negative special abilities to a
> cannot form: Igo cannot gain the normal +1 stealth from hunting, Blythe cannot
> use the normal 1 strength against Malkavians (or something similar), Rex cannot
> play combat cards unless he pays an additional blood. But it doesn't really
> work that way (don't ask me why).
Igo has a special restriction "does not gain the usual...".
So I guess the "key words" are "does not" and "cannot" and "are not". :-)
Correct on Blythe and Rex, though.
Derek Ray
>Halcyan 2 wrote:
>>
>> #2. Not being contestable (Jimmy Dunn, Fi'dai, and Aabt Kindred)
>
>That's "Fida'i" and "Aabbt", BTW. :-)
You mean "Fido" and "Dear Abby". =)
--
Derek
"Agricultural barbarians? What do THEY do... rape, pillage, and plant?"
Sten During
>
> Igo has a special restriction "does not gain the usual...".
> So I guess the "key words" are "does not" and "cannot" and "are not". :-)
>
> ----
>
Hmm, I don't know if there are any vampires with the wording
'must do X in order to Y'. If so then that might classify as a
restriction as well.
Sten During
> Calvia TerraTel AB http://www.netg.se/
Michael F. Tomkins
> LSJ wrote:
>
> >
> > Igo has a special restriction "does not gain the usual...".
> > So I guess the "key words" are "does not" and "cannot" and "are not".
> > :-)
> >
>
> > ----
> >
>
> Hmm, I don't know if there are any vampires with the wording
> 'must do X in order to Y'. If so then that might classify as a
> restriction as well.
Calebros the Matyr
If Calebros if the Prince of New York, any older Camarilla Vampire
controlled by another Methuselah can can steal his title from him as an
action which he cannot block.
So can the title still be stolen?
--
You will pay for you sins Michael F. Tomkins
m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
If you have already paid University of Canberra, Australia.
Please disregard this notice http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
LSJ
>
> In article <3BE7E2C8...@netg.se>, st...@netg.se wrote:
>
> > LSJ wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Igo has a special restriction "does not gain the usual...".
> > > So I guess the "key words" are "does not" and "cannot" and "are not".
> > > :-)
> > >
> >
> > > ----
> > >
> >
> > Hmm, I don't know if there are any vampires with the wording
> > 'must do X in order to Y'. If so then that might classify as a
> > restriction as well.
>
> Calebros the Matyr
> If Calebros if the Prince of New York, any older Camarilla Vampire
> controlled by another Methuselah can can steal his title from him as an
> action which he cannot block.
>
> So can the title still be stolen?
Yes. Seeds only prevents the vampire from using his own special abilities,
by card text.
So Ventrue can still enter combat with a Seeded Kemintiri, Gangrel antitribu
can rush a Seeded Huang, Methuselahs can still cause Seeded Chas to fail, etc.
Mike Ooi
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3BE94C85...@white-wolf.com...
> "Michael F. Tomkins" wrote:
> >
> > In article <3BE7E2C8...@netg.se>, st...@netg.se wrote:
> >
> > > LSJ wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Igo has a special restriction "does not gain the usual...".
> > > > So I guess the "key words" are "does not" and "cannot" and "are
not".
> > > > :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ----
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hmm, I don't know if there are any vampires with the wording
> > > 'must do X in order to Y'. If so then that might classify as a
> > > restriction as well.
> >
> > Calebros the Matyr
> > If Calebros if the Prince of New York, any older Camarilla Vampire
> > controlled by another Methuselah can can steal his title from him as an
> > action which he cannot block.
> >
> > So can the title still be stolen?
>
> Yes. Seeds only prevents the vampire from using his own special abilities,
> by card text.
>
> So Ventrue can still enter combat with a Seeded Kemintiri, Gangrel
antitribu
> can rush a Seeded Huang, Methuselahs can still cause Seeded Chas to fail,
etc.
>
And we can't get a definitive list because...?
You have to admit it would be nice to compile a list for some sort of FAQ. I
bet The Lasombra needs something to "sink his teeth into".
-Mike Ooi
LSJ
> And we can't get a definitive list because...?
Too long and (for the most part) too obvious.
You're welcome to compile one if your heart's set on it.
If you find any ones that aren't covered by the rulings presented so far, feel
free to ask.
When you've got the list finished, post it here.
> You have to admit it would be nice to compile a list for some sort of FAQ. I
> bet The Lasombra needs something to "sink his teeth into".
I don't think most of that list would qualify on the 'F' part, but OK.