Shambling Hordes Q
mostly harmless
in my ash heap from the game.
So what exactly does 'enter play' mean? Is this just the first time
the card gets played? Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the
ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
Michael
James Coupe
harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes:
>When Shambling Hordes enter play I have to remove an ally or vampire
>in my ash heap from the game.
>
>So what exactly does 'enter play' mean?
To enter play - to move from a circumstance of not being in play to
being in play.
> Is this just the first time
>the card gets played?
This would be one such instance. The card was not in play and now is.
>Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the
>ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
This would also count. The card was not in play and now is.
--
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mostly harmless
> In message <9ebd888f.01102...@posting.google.com>, mostly
> harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes:
> >When Shambling Hordes enter play I have to remove an ally or vampire
> >in my ash heap from the game.
> >
> >So what exactly does 'enter play' mean?
>
> To enter play - to move from a circumstance of not being in play to
> being in play.
So what's not being in play?
> > Is this just the first time
> >the card gets played?
>
> This would be one such instance. The card was not in play and now is.
So the cards in the ash heap are not considered in play? (There are
cards that target or require the use of certain cards in the ash heap
after all.)
> >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the
> >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
>
> This would also count. The card was not in play and now is.
Well, another interpretation would be that playing the card from my
hand brings it in play where it stays as long as the game lasts or it
is removed from the game. Is there a rule or ruling defining what's in
or out of play?
Thanks,
M.
James Coupe
harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes:
>So what's not being in play?
In general, a card in a library, crypt, hand, uncontrolled region or ash
heap would not be "in play".
A controlled card, whether ready or torporised, whether tapped or
untapped, would be in play.
Contesting takes a card "out of play" (1.6.1.4) (Not that that's
relevant to Shambling Hordes.)
>So the cards in the ash heap are not considered in play?
No. For example:
1.6.1.4 demonstrates the Unique cards in play contest each other. This
does not, of course, includes cards in the ash heap.
> (There are
>cards that target or require the use of certain cards in the ash heap
>after all.)
Certain cards can do many things. For example, certain cards can target
cards in your hand. They are not, however, in play. (Else that Tomb
you've got in your hand will contest that Tomb I've got in play.)
Similarly, I can burn cards in your crypt with certain cards - they are
also not in play.
>> >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the
>> >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
>>
>> This would also count. The card was not in play and now is.
>
>Well, another interpretation would be that playing the card from my
>hand brings it in play where it stays as long as the game lasts or it
>is removed from the game.
You can then never yield a contest. A yielded contest goes to the ash-
heap, which is not the same as removed from the game (the two being
quite separate activities).
Your interpret
> Is there a rule or ruling defining what's in
>or out of play?
Contested cards are out of play. [1.6.1.4, as previously referenced]
The ash heap is out of play. [LSJ20010626]
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B394091.C9389099%40white-
wolf.com> - Question 7.
Most specifically:
'"In play" is equivalent to "controlled by some Methuselah".'
[LSJ20010327]
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AC0EE93.27F78BB6%40white-
wolf.com>
Orpheus
> >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
>
> This would also count. The card was not in play and now is.
I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for
the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the
table (if only by its presence). If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in
the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants).
LSJ
> mostly harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes:
> >So what's not being in play?
>
> In general, a card in a library, crypt, hand, uncontrolled region or ash
> heap would not be "in play".
>
> A controlled card, whether ready or torporised, whether tapped or
> untapped, would be in play.
>
> Contesting takes a card "out of play" (1.6.1.4) (Not that that's
> relevant to Shambling Hordes.)
Right. If the card has been "put in play" (per the rules) and has not "left
play", then it is "in play". In general, any face-up card on the table is
"in play".
> >So the cards in the ash heap are not considered in play?
>
> [Correct]. For example:
Gotta watch those negative questions, James. :-)
> Most specifically:
> '"In play" is equivalent to "controlled by some Methuselah".'
> [LSJ20010327]
> <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AC0EE93.27F78BB6%40white-
> wolf.com>
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
> > >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the
> > >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
> >
> > This would also count. The card was not in play and now is.
>
> I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for
> the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the
> table (if only by its presence). If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in
> the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants).
James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that.
"Enter the kitchen" means every time, not just the first time, you go into
the kitchen from somewhere out of the kitchen.
"Enter play" means every time, not just the first time, you go into
play from somewhere out of play.
Cards in the ash heap are not in play.
James Coupe
writes:
>I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for
>the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the
>table (if only by its presence).
If that were the case, circumlocutions such as "enter play" would be
unnecessary. It would simply happen when the card was "played".
[LSJ20010820] also rules that this interpretation is incorrect.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B81D7E4.A3803EB2%40white-wolf.com
"
> >Compel the Spirit.
> >When compeling a Shambling Horde do you have to burn another ally ect
> >to
> >return the SH to play?
> >
>
> Yes you do have to remove another ally etc to return the SH to play.
> When
> Compelled, it is still "entering play."
Correct."
(Halcyan2 at > level, LSJ saying "Correct".)
Orpheus:
> If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in
>the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants).
It may still be targeted by certain effects of the game, sure. That
does not make it "in play". Is my hand in play? Surely, by this logic,
it is, especially concerning Ravnos (and other Chimerstrists[0])? In
which case, by [1.6.1.4] cards which are in your hand contest cards
which are in the controlled region.
See my other post referring to LSJ's given definition of "in play",
regarding being controlled.
[0] Anyone who cares to invent a better word is welcome.
Orpheus
Ok, James, sorry to have doubted your omniscience... ;-)
> Cards in the ash heap are not in play.
Well, all of a sudden it's much less interesting to base a deck on SH /
Compel the Spirit...
Roger Carhult
> In message <9rbduc$hec$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr>
> writes:
> >I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for
> >the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the
> >table (if only by its presence).
>
> If that were the case, circumlocutions such as "enter play" would be
> unnecessary. It would simply happen when the card was "played".
>
> [LSJ20010820] also rules that this interpretation is incorrect.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B81D7E4.A3803EB2%40white-wolf.com
I just wonder where you get the date from, the link's date is 27th of March
2001?
Roger
Roger Carhult
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:9rbmr0$sqiap$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
Uhm nevermind, was watching the wrong link in my browser.
GreySeer
news:9rbmgq$qhr$1...@wanadoo.fr...
> > James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that.
>
> Ok, James, sorry to have doubted your omniscience... ;-)
>
> > Cards in the ash heap are not in play.
>
> Well, all of a sudden it's much less interesting to base a deck on SH /
> Compel the Spirit...
It works just fine, you just need a lot more SH in your ash heap. You can
discard them into your ash heap and remove them ( the discarded ones ) from
the game when you Compel. I've seen a very effective deck do it, it has 13
SH in it, a Barrens or Fragment might help too with the discarding.
Frederic Genest
> > Compel the Spirit...
>
> It works just fine, you just need a lot more SH in your ash heap. You can
> discard them into your ash heap and remove them ( the discarded ones ) from
> the game when you Compel. I've seen a very effective deck do it, it has 13
> SH in it, a Barrens or Fragment might help too with the discarding.
And don't forget to remember that CtS works on allies/retainers that
have been ** burned since your last turn **.
Unless I'm mistaken, discarding a SH from your hand does not count as
"burned"... yes?
skippy
"Frederic Genest" <gen...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:703899b7.01102...@posting.google.com...
It does count as burnt, but does not fulfill the "controlled" requirement of
CtS. The discarding supplies the ally to burn for the one you bring in to
play.
--
Oscar Garza
Prince of College Station
The Crazy Aggie
Jason Bell
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> Orpheus wrote:
> > > >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the
> > > >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)?
> > >
> > > This would also count. The card was not in play and now is.
> >
> > I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card
for
> > the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the
> > table (if only by its presence). If it goes to the ash heap, it still is
in
> > the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants).
>
> James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that.
>
> "Enter the kitchen" means every time, not just the first time, you go into
> the kitchen from somewhere out of the kitchen.
>
> "Enter play" means every time, not just the first time, you go into
> play from somewhere out of play.
>
> Cards in the ash heap are not in play.
Related questions, though not obviously:
Is a contested card in play?
Is it controlled?
- Jason Bell
mostly harmless
> James Coupe wrote:
> > mostly harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes:
> > >So what's not being in play?
> >
> > In general, a card in a library, crypt, hand, uncontrolled region or ash
> > heap would not be "in play".
> >
> > A controlled card, whether ready or torporised, whether tapped or
> > untapped, would be in play.
> >
> > Contesting takes a card "out of play" (1.6.1.4) (Not that that's
> > relevant to Shambling Hordes.)
>
> Right. If the card has been "put in play" (per the rules) and has not "left
> play", then it is "in play". In general, any face-up card on the table is
> "in play".
>
Alright. I guess I'll have to rethink about that Shambling
Hordes/Compell the Spirit deck. Maybe if I put some disposable allies
in there...
Anyway, thanks to both of you.
Michael
Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
>It may still be targeted by certain effects of the game, sure. That
>does not make it "in play". Is my hand in play? Surely, by this logic,
>it is, especially concerning Ravnos (and other Chimerstrists[0])? In
>which case, by [1.6.1.4] cards which are in your hand contest cards
>which are in the controlled region.
>
>See my other post referring to LSJ's given definition of "in play",
>regarding being controlled.
>
>
>[0] Anyone who cares to invent a better word is welcome.
How about "chimerist"?
"chimerist" is to "chimeristry" as "chemist" is to "chemistry".
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
LSJ
No. (it is not face up).
> Is it controlled?
No, since it is not in play.
Jason Bell
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> Jason Bell wrote:
> >
> > Related questions, though not obviously:
> > Is a contested card in play?
>
> No. (it is not face up).
>
> > Is it controlled?
>
> No, since it is not in play.
Confirmation question:
Does The Rack re-target a vampire during the untap after
your opponent yields the costested copy (since the control
changes from uncontrolled to controlled by you)?
- Jason Bell
LSJ
No. Contesting doesn't change the status of the card.
Jason Bell
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> Jason Bell wrote:
> >
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote
> > > Jason Bell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Related questions, though not obviously:
> > > > Is a contested card in play?
> > >
> > > No. (it is not face up).
> > >
> > > > Is it controlled?
> > >
> > > No, since it is not in play.
> >
> > Confirmation question:
> >
> > Does The Rack re-target a vampire during the untap after
> > your opponent yields the costested copy (since the control
> > changes from uncontrolled to controlled by you)?
>
> No. Contesting doesn't change the status of the card.
Well, it has to after a fashion, since the status changes
from not controlled to controlled.
But, I suppose since control never "changes," as in from
one player to another, the relevant text to The Rack
does not trigger?
- Jason Bell
Talo...@hotmail.com
If you return the SH to play from the ash heap with Compel the Spirit,
is the 'burn an ally/retainer from the game' part of the COST of
putting that SH into play again?
And thus negated by the Compel the spirit?
T
James Coupe
>If you return the SH to play from the ash heap with Compel the Spirit,
>is the 'burn an ally/retainer from the game' part of the COST of
>putting that SH into play again?
No. It's just what the card says on it.
>And thus negated by the Compel the spirit?
No. The Compelled Shambling Horde enters play. Its card text about
when it enters play kicks in, meaning you have to burn an ally or
retainer.
--
James Coupe Everybody knows that "No" means "Yes"
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Halcyan 2
>is the 'burn an ally/retainer from the game' part of the COST of
>putting that SH into play again?
No. The cost of a card is always just the number in the blood drop on the left
side (in blood or pool). That's it.
The burn/remove thingy is an effect of the card.
>And thus negated by the Compel the spirit?
No.
Halcyan 2
James Coupe
<halc...@aol.com> writes:
>No. The cost of a card is always just the number in the blood drop on the left
>side (in blood or pool). That's it.
Possibly modified by card text. e.g. Venenation