VTES Rules Team Rulings 05-JAN-99
LSJ
>ERRATA
I should also have mentioned that the new errata and rulings don't go
into effect for DCI santioned tourneys until 01-FEB-99 (the standard
delay for rulings issued before the 15th of the month).
> Wooden Stake
> New card text: "Melee Weapon. This weapon inflicts strength damage as a
> strike. If more than damage is inflicted on the opposing vampire by this
"If more than 1 damage is inflicted...", that is.
(starting the new year off right, I see.)
> weapon in a given combat, then that vampire is sent to torpor. In that case,
> this card is transferred to him and he does not untap as normal during the
> untap phase as long as he remains in torpor."
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
LSJ
of this rules set - I sent out an old, incomplete copy by mistake
(that message has been canceled, hoepfully). Anyway, here's the
complete post:
ERRATA
------
Ammo (Dragon's Breath Rounds, Glaser Rounds, Manstopper Rounds)
Are played "before resolution of a gun's strike", not "when damage from a
gun is being resolved". That is, it is played after the strike is announced,
but before the strike resolution phase.
#
# Doesn't change much of anything, but helps resolve an inconsistency
# regarding Rotschreck. The timing is now consistent with Claws.
Parity Shift
The reallocation is specified before votes are cast. (The VTES version
left the reallocation unspecified until the referendum passes).
Clarification: In reallocating, you are free to give some players
nothing, of course.
Tomb of Ramses, III
New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
#
# Points of interest:
# This version works in much the same manner as the original text while
# being fairly balanced. This is the reason for changing the previous
# errata to the card.
# The Tomb only cares about "transfers" made to the chosen vampire,
# not about blood put there through other means (4th Tradition, etc.)
# nor to transfers made to other uncontrolled vampres.
# When the chosen vampire is moved to the ready region, it keeps whatever
# counters it has, but does not get the counters from the Tomb nor does
# it "fill up" from the Blood Bank.
# Moving the chosen vampire to the ready region is only mandatory when it
# is full. You are not forced to use the Tomb when the number of counters
# (combined) reaches the capacity.
White Phosphorous Grenade
Change "if White Phosphorous Grenade inflicts damage at close range..." to
"if White Phosphorous Grenade is used at close range..."
#
# That is, the grenade striker takes a point of aggravated damage at
# close range even if the opposing minion dodges.
Wooden Stake
New card text: "Melee Weapon. This weapon inflicts strength damage as a
strike. If more than damage is inflicted on the opposing vampire by this
weapon in a given combat, then that vampire is sent to torpor. In that case,
this card is transferred to him and he does not untap as normal during the
untap phase as long as he remains in torpor."
#
# This text better mimics the Jyhad text (which is what the VTES text was
# attempting to do) and corrects a few problems introduced in the VTES text.
RULINGS
-------
"At the Start of the Untap Phase" means the same thing as "During the Untap
Phase". Neither phrase specifies a period of time before the other.
#
# The phrase is otherwise meaningless, since you always "start" your untap
# phase by untapping your cards. All other untap phase events can be ordered
# as you wish [4].
Retainers. The current ruling that "Any reference to the employing
vampire should be a reference to the employing minion, unless the
retainer's ability clearly only applies to a vampire." is a little vague.
The following are "clearly" vampire-only: effects that burn or gain
blood, effects that grant or remove disciplines (or clan or sect
status, for that matter, not that there are any such retainers currently),
effects that alter capacity, and/or effects that grant or remove titles or
votes (again, not that the current set includes any of these). Everything
else (including bleed, intercept, stealth, and combat modifiers) are
applicable to allies as well as vampires.
agen...@my-dejanews.com
> Ammo (Dragon's Breath Rounds, Glaser Rounds, Manstopper Rounds)
> Are played "before resolution of a gun's strike", not "when damage from a
> gun is being resolved". That is, it is played after the strike is announced,
> but before the strike resolution phase.
> # Doesn't change much of anything, but helps resolve an inconsistency
> # regarding Rotschreck. The timing is now consistent with Claws.
hrmmm... I thought you could play 'Claws' (or 'Bonespur', etc.) at
any time during the round, including before range. I take it by
reading the above that this belief is erroneous?
> Tomb of Ramses, III
> vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
> it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
Much better. Now it's no longer wallpaper.
a0
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jaysen Knight
would never agree with your ToR III errata. Your new errata below is very
acceptable. Kudos on having the guts to change your own decisions (though I
do seem to recall that at the time you weren't too happy with your own card
text; I had the impression that the need to fix an unbalanced card took
precedence at that time).
Still not really happy with RtI though -prod-prod- :)
LSJ wrote:
>
> ERRATA
> ------
-snip-
>
> Tomb of Ramses, III
> New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
> this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
> uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
> vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
> of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
> vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
> it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
> #
> # Points of interest:
> # This version works in much the same manner as the original text while
> # being fairly balanced. This is the reason for changing the previous
> # errata to the card.
> # The Tomb only cares about "transfers" made to the chosen vampire,
> # not about blood put there through other means (4th Tradition, etc.)
> # nor to transfers made to other uncontrolled vampres.
> # When the chosen vampire is moved to the ready region, it keeps whatever
> # counters it has, but does not get the counters from the Tomb nor does
> # it "fill up" from the Blood Bank.
> # Moving the chosen vampire to the ready region is only mandatory when it
> # is full. You are not forced to use the Tomb when the number of counters
> # (combined) reaches the capacity.
>
LSJ
>
> > Ammo (Dragon's Breath Rounds, Glaser Rounds, Manstopper Rounds)
> > Are played "before resolution of a gun's strike", not "when damage from a
> > gun is being resolved". That is, it is played after the strike is
announced,
> > but before the strike resolution phase.
> > # Doesn't change much of anything, but helps resolve an inconsistency
> > # regarding Rotschreck. The timing is now consistent with Claws.
>
> hrmmm... I thought you could play 'Claws' (or 'Bonespur', etc.) at
> any time during the round, including before range. I take it by
> reading the above that this belief is erroneous?
Your belief is correct. Ammo's timing had been inconsistent with the
timing restriction imposed on Claws (i.e., Claws had to be played before
strike resolution to be effective). That inconsistency has been removed,
that's all. ("Consistent with" is not the same as "identical to".)
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> Tomb of Ramses, III
> New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
> this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
> uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
> vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
> of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
> vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
> it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
Hrm. I'll certaintly toss this out to the MJL group. I'm certain this
version will go over a lot better. Thanks for reconsidering the previous
ruling. I'm sure that those of us who prefer to stay reasonably close to
card text will prefer this one.
Of course, you'll be seeing Giant's Blood and the 5th Tradition Hospital being
used frequently with this card...but that's not a bad thing.
Noal
--
DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors.
-Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> Retainers. The current ruling that "Any reference to the employing
> vampire should be a reference to the employing minion, unless the
> retainer's ability clearly only applies to a vampire." is a little vague.
>
> The following are "clearly" vampire-only: effects that burn or gain
> blood, effects that grant or remove disciplines (or clan or sect
> status, for that matter, not that there are any such retainers currently),
> effects that alter capacity, and/or effects that grant or remove titles or
> votes (again, not that the current set includes any of these). Everything
> else (including bleed, intercept, stealth, and combat modifiers) are
> applicable to allies as well as vampires.
So...does that mean that an Arms Dealer can hire and use Mr. Winthorp?
Dhar...@yahoo.com
should be changed from:
> Tomb of Ramses, III
> New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
> this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
> uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
> vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
> of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
> vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
> it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
to:
Tomb of Ramses, III
New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
vampire, put a tomb counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the tomb counters
on it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
The reason being that your commentary stated that the blood transferred to it
through normal means will remain on it after being brought out. My proposed
wording makes that more clear. Note the use of "tomb counters" instead of
"blood counters" to clarify the intent.
Noal McDonald
Just some guy on the MJL Rules Team
http://kite.eecs.umich.edu/MIRT/
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> Still not really happy with RtI though -prod-prod- :)
For what it's worth, the MJL Rules Team are playtesting a couple
of alternate "fixes" to RtI. One suggested fix is that no action
modifiers may be played on RtI. The other is that the cost of RtI
is equal to capacity.
If you're interested in looking at the playtesting, we're doing it on-line
through JOL. The games' URLs are:
No action mods: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/jolgame.cgi?MJL1
Cost = cap: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/jolgame.cgi?MJL2
I'm going with the most abusive strategy, namely steal others' vampires
and use them for Golconda and RtI. We are using Mind Rape as printed
on the card. Playtester comments can be found at the bottom of the
page.
Noal McDonald
The Great Googily Moogily of Westland, MI
Michigan Jyhad League
LSJ
> > Retainers. The current ruling that "Any reference to the employing
> > vampire should be a reference to the employing minion, unless the
> > retainer's ability clearly only applies to a vampire." is a little vague.
> >
> > The following are "clearly" vampire-only: effects that burn or gain
> > blood, effects that grant or remove disciplines (or clan or sect
> > status, for that matter, not that there are any such retainers currently),
> > effects that alter capacity, and/or effects that grant or remove titles or
> > votes (again, not that the current set includes any of these). Everything
> > else (including bleed, intercept, stealth, and combat modifiers) are
> > applicable to allies as well as vampires.
>
> So...does that mean that an Arms Dealer can hire and use Mr. Winthorp?
Yes. Which was true before (with the 31-MAY-96 RTR). It's just
a little more formalized now.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Walker Comuter Lab Patron
>
> agen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > hrmmm... I thought you could play 'Claws' (or 'Bonespur', etc.) at
> > any time during the round, including before range. I take it by
> > reading the above that this belief is erroneous?
>
> Your belief is correct.
So if Igo is blocked by Nik, can Igo play Wolf Claws after Nik has
declared his strike? ie, could Igo's Methuselah wait to see if Nik
dodged, etc, before playing Wolf Claws and paying the blood for it?
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> > So...does that mean that an Arms Dealer can hire and use Mr. Winthorp?
>
> Yes. Which was true before (with the 31-MAY-96 RTR). It's just
> a little more formalized now.
Sounds good. Makes my Allies decks even more evil.
I can deal with that.
Noal
--
DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors.
-Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Mark Lamutt
> -------
> "At the Start of the Untap Phase" means the same thing as "During the Untap
> Phase". Neither phrase specifies a period of time before the other.
> #
> # The phrase is otherwise meaningless, since you always "start" your untap
> # phase by untapping your cards. All other untap phase events can be ordered
> # as you wish [4].
>
LSJ -
Does this change the clarification regarding Malkavian Dementia - when
control the Malk is lost?
Malkavian Dementia - Master
You lose control of that Malkavian when you start your untap phase. This
is not an untap effect that you order among your other untap effects; it
happens when the phase begins.You do not untap the Malkavian [RTR 951017]
Thanks,
Mark
Eric Pettersen
> ERRATA
> ------
[snippage]
> Tomb of Ramses, III
> New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller
> of this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in
> your uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the
> chosen vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank.
> At the end of your influence phase, if the total number of counters
> on the chosen vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's
> capacity, you may move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb
> (and the counters on it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled
> region."
> # Points of interest:
> # This version works in much the same manner as the original text while
> # being fairly balanced. This is the reason for changing the previous
> # errata to the card.
> # The Tomb only cares about "transfers" made to the chosen vampire,
> # not about blood put there through other means (4th Tradition, etc.)
> # nor to transfers made to other uncontrolled vampres.
> # When the chosen vampire is moved to the ready region, it keeps whatever
> # counters it has, but does not get the counters from the Tomb nor does
> # it "fill up" from the Blood Bank.
> # Moving the chosen vampire to the ready region is only mandatory when
> # counters (combined) reaches the capacity.
Another point is that this Tomb can be stolen/burned before it can have any
positive effect for the player playing it.
I certainly like this version better than the 7/7 version, though for
anything less than ICs, your time is probably better spent on other master
cards. It does have the flavor of the original card, which the 7/7 version
didn't. This is an interesting re-working of Tomb.
---
Eric Pettersen
pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)
LSJ
Yes. Wolf Claws, Claws of the Dead, etc. can be played after both
minions have choosen their strikes, before strike resolution.
Same thing for ammo (now).
The difference is that Wolf Claws, Claws of the Dead, etc. *may*
be played at any time during the round up to that point (e.g.,
before range is determined). Ammo can only be played after the
strike (using a gun) is announced.
CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at
Dhar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> After taking a closer look at text and commentary about intent, this
> should be changed from:
>
> > New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
> > this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
> > uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
> > vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
> > of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
> > vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> > move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
> > it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
>
>
> Tomb of Ramses, III
> New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
> this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
> uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
> of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
> vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> on it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
>
> through normal means will remain on it after being brought out. My proposed
> wording makes that more clear. Note the use of "tomb counters" instead of
> "blood counters" to clarify the intent.
Using "Tomb Counters" is a bit better. If there were a choice I would use
your version with the Tomb counters. Otherwise, the new RTR Tomb-wording
is (almost) as good and suffices.
Carl
(VEKN Prince of Vienna)
LSJ
No. When the untap phase begins, your control has ended, thanks to the
wording on Malkavian Dementia. Losing control is not an event or effect.
Malk Dementia simply gave you control of the Malk "until your next untap
phase". If you're in your "next untap phase", you no longer have control
of the Malk.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
William Pyle
hm... maybe I'm just stupid, but the way I read both of these versions
is that the vampire comes out with only 1/2 its capacity in blood on it...
this seems really odd, and I hope I'm reading it wrong....
but if you put the tomb on some 8-cap vampire.... you transfer 4 blood
to the vampire, thereby transferring 4 counters (blood or tomb) to the
tomb... since the total # of counters on the tomb+vampire is 8, you
bring out the vampire, but burn whichever counters are on the tomb,
resulting in your vampire leaving the inactive region with 4 blood...
maybe it's just me, but that seems blatantly against the rules...
granted, card text overrules rulebook rules....
maybe I'm just reading it wrong... could I get some sort of
clarification on this??
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> hm... maybe I'm just stupid, but the way I read both of these versions
> is that the vampire comes out with only 1/2 its capacity in blood on it...
> this seems really odd, and I hope I'm reading it wrong....
Nope. You're not stupid. That's correct. If you use ToR III to get a
vampire out, it comes out at apporx. 1/2 capacity.
Noal McDonald
Michigan Jyhad League
--
DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors.
-Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
agen...@my-dejanews.com
> hm... maybe I'm just stupid, but the way I read both of these versions
> is that the vampire comes out with only 1/2 its capacity in blood on it...
> this seems really odd, and I hope I'm reading it wrong....
Nope, you are reading it correctly and that is indeed what LSJ was
going for when he made that errata.
While I will grant you that it is not what the card did originally
and that it is not the ideal change (I feel it didn't need to be
errata'd, but that's just me), it is most certainly alot better than
what it was changed to on 7/7.
> tomb... since the total # of counters on the tomb+vampire is 8, you
> bring out the vampire, but burn whichever counters are on the tomb,
> resulting in your vampire leaving the inactive region with 4 blood...
Correct.
> maybe it's just me, but that seems blatantly against the rules...
> granted, card text overrules rulebook rules....
This is exactly the case. Card text always overrides the rules.
a0
LSJ
> >> Tomb of Ramses, III
> >> New card text: "When this card is brought into play or the controller of
> >> this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your
> >> uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen
> >> vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end
> >> of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen
> >> vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may
> >> move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on
> >> it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region."
>
> is that the vampire comes out with only 1/2 its capacity in blood on it...
> this seems really odd, and I hope I'm reading it wrong....
>
> to the vampire, thereby transferring 4 counters (blood or tomb) to the
> bring out the vampire, but burn whichever counters are on the tomb,
"You *may* bring out the vampire" - you are welcome to keep it
and make more transfers to it yourself (to have it come out with
more blood on it).
> resulting in your vampire leaving the inactive region with 4 blood...
> maybe it's just me, but that seems blatantly against the rules...
> granted, card text overrules rulebook rules....
It's not against the rules any more than putting blood on an
uncontrolled vampire from the blood bank (Govern the Unaligned,
for instance) is against the rules. That bit about card text
is all that is required.
> maybe I'm just reading it wrong... could I get some sort of
> clarification on this??
You appear to understand the card completely.
James Coupe
<wp...@mindspring.com> writes
>hm... maybe I'm just stupid, but the way I read both of these versions
>is that the vampire comes out with only 1/2 its capacity in blood on it...
>this seems really odd, and I hope I'm reading it wrong....
No, this is the way it was generally decided was best, after much
debate. You get a substantially better vampire out than your transfers
would allow, quicker and more easily, but you don't get them at full.
It also helps prevent the "Blood Machine" effect of the Tomb, and
provides the possibility of the Tomb not actually getting you anything
on the first turn you play it.
Keep up at the back there! *grin*
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England)
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net
William Pyle
8<
>> resulting in your vampire leaving the inactive region with 4 blood...
>> maybe it's just me, but that seems blatantly against the rules...
>> granted, card text overrules rulebook rules....
>
>It's not against the rules any more than putting blood on an
>uncontrolled vampire from the blood bank (Govern the Unaligned,
>for instance) is against the rules. That bit about card text
>is all that is required.
>
the 'against the rules' part I meant was about bringing the vampire
out with less than its capacity's worth of blood... but I guess
if the card text says you can, then you can....
this has a pretty decent application against banishment, ya know...
lets say Ulugh gets banished with 2 blood on him by your predator...
now, normally you're screwed, but you just happen to have a tomb
in your hand.... so you put it on ulugh, transfer 4 blood to him, and
you have your 10-cap Ulugh back for 1 less blood in 1 less turn
than normal, at the cost of him being at 6/10....
not too shabby, I guess....
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)