Nethack Bard patch
André Bertelli Araújo
with Nethack's code, I tried to create a patch to add the bard class. I
did a couple of different versions, played with some concepts, but then
I got lots of things to do IRL, and my lack of free time made me step
away from both the patch and nethack.
Nowadays I still don't have much free time, but I started playing again
and the unfinished patch started bothering me. I wished to finish it
just for the sake of doing it, even if in the end the patch turns out to
not be so interesting. So here I am again. I rewrote several stuff in
the patch that I didn't like and tried some new approaches.
You can download the patch and read details about it (and some spoilers)
at: http://andreba.wordpress.com/projects/nethack-bard-patch/
Please note that while the patch seems to be stable (I've been playing
with it), there must be lots of bugs in it yet. I'm posting it here
because I don't have much free time to test it extensively, so I'm
asking for any brave souls that are willing to play with it and report
any bugs found. I can't promise to answer *quickly* news messages and
e-mails about it, but I do promise I will read and answer any news
message and e-mail when I have the time. (I think it's best to post any
suggestions/bug reports/discussions in this thread instead of sending me
an e-mail but anyways.) Just be aware that the game may explode in your face :)
Oh, please also notice that english isn't my main language so excuse me
for any weird sentences in both my messages and in this patch.
Sean
Eric Ryan Harrison
I also like the idea of adding a new shop type (music shop) though I'm wary of new shop types without mucking with the generation code a bit. Shops are already rare enough to be a game changer and two music shops on DLVL 2 & 3 could cripple a game in it's early stages. Other shops (armor, general store, bookstore) are fairly positive additions to the game, but I'm afraid a music store would get in the way.
I'm going to try and get this compiled and running and then I'll try and give you some feedback.
Maybe I'm wrong and the music store is awesome... :D Either way, cool patch. Thanks.
Karl Garrison
wrote:
I am playing with it now, and it is interesting. I do like the
mechanics of the "musicalize spell" skill (though maybe it could be
called "spell songs" or somesuch?).
I think you are a bit stingy on the skills for the class, though.
Bards are inherently magical, yet their spell skills are on par with
cavemen, and get outstripped by classes like rogues and tourists. I
would maybe bump divination spells to skilled, and add a couple more
to basic level, such as escape and healing.
For weapon skills, I would consider bumping daggers and maybe clubs to
expert level (think juggling here), moving short swords to skilled,
and giving at least basic in sabers (seems like a nice light, flashy
weapon appropriate for bards). I know these guys are not supposed to
be combat experts, but as it stands, they are about on par with
wizards in terms of weapon skills, and not as good as tourists and
healers, which seems a bit too weak.
Anyway, good work, and I look forward to playing more with this!
--
Karl Garrison
kgar...@pobox.com
Jorgen Grahn
...
> For weapon skills, I would consider bumping daggers and maybe clubs to
> expert level (think juggling here),
Juggling bards? The Wikipedia describes them as performing poets,
unrelated to clowns and jesters. There's one in the Asterix comics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_in_Asterix#Cacofonix
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Eric Harrison
I think it would be interesting to see more enchanting songs offered, though offhand I can't think of things I'd want to see.
I think it's a pretty good start.
GaryOlson
> Karl Garrison
> kgarri...@pobox.com
I was thinking possibly the skill would be "rapture"; but that would
only be useful for bard-clerics. [not suggesting another class]
The best performers "captivate" their audience. Call the skill
captivation? Enthrall? Mesmerize?
Gary
Jorgen Grahn
> You're right, of course,
Are you replying to my posting, Message-ID
<slrniklhlg.1...@frailea.sa.invalid> ?
You seem to have a problem with your newsreader; it doesn't thread
correctly.
> though when I picture a bard, I think of a traveling entertainer.
I don't, but perhaps the term has had different meanings in different
places and times.
Eric Harrison
> Are you replying to my posting, Message-ID
> <slrniklhlg.1...@frailea.sa.invalid> ?
>
> You seem to have a problem with your newsreader; it doesn't thread
> correctly.
Yeah. I was replying to you. I'm just using Google Reader. I figured the folks at Google were smart enough to do things correctly. Let me know if this one is messed up as well and I'll go and try and get something else.
>
> > though when I picture a bard, I think of a traveling entertainer.
>
> I don't, but perhaps the term has had different meanings in different
> places and times.
It's possible. I'm basing my view almost entirely on various different fantasy stories and not on any sort of real historical accuracy. Either way, I still think of the Bard as a fairly fun class addition. I'd like to see some more improvements for gameplay balance purposes (like expert daggers and clubs and such) and the concept of the Bard as a general purpose "entertainer" makes those changes at least plausible.
-E
Doug Freyburger
> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>
>> You seem to have a problem with your newsreader; it doesn't thread
>> correctly.
>
> Yeah. I was replying to you. I'm just using Google Reader. I figured the
> folks at Google were smart enough to do things correctly.
The folks at google are notorious for getting almost everything wrong
when it comes to UseNet. Are you using their new interface? If so
switch to the old interface.
Also consider downloading a regular newsreader and switching to a
better NSP. I use google groups as a backup and when I look at the
groups in their interface I am disgusted by the high level of spam
(filtered by the server by good NSPs) and the trolls (filtered by my
own settings by a good newsreader).
> and the concept of the Bard as a general purpose "entertainer" ...
When I read the word "bard" I pictured a character who came with a
taming instrument and skill at using it. At some skill level they can
convert hostiles to peacefuls or peacefuls to pets. I pictured it as a
combat avoidance class and a pet management class.
JRBrown
> > > though when I picture a bard, I think of a traveling entertainer.
>
> > I don't, but perhaps the term has had different meanings in different
> > places and times.
>
> It's possible. I'm basing my view almost entirely on various different fantasy stories and not on any sort of real historical accuracy. Either way, I still think of the Bard as a fairly fun class addition. I'd like to see some more improvements for gameplay balance purposes (like expert daggers and clubs and such) and the concept of the Bard as a general purpose "entertainer" makes those changes at least plausible.
A "general purpose entertainer" type might be better called a
minstrel? From a historic perspective (filtered through Nethack's
worldview) a bard does seem more like a clerical-type class, although
Andre's patch doesn't seem to be headed in quite that direction.
I haven't got around to figuring out how to apply patches, but from
Andre's summary it looks like a quite interesting idea, so I encourage
him to keep at it.
David Damerell
>Yeah. I was replying to you. I'm just using Google Reader. I figured the fo
>lks at Google were smart enough to do things correctly. Let me know if this
> one is messed up as well and I'll go and try and get something else.
You want to not use the "new" broken interface, which discards References
lines and also has introduced the horrible wrap damage.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Aponoia, February.
Tomorrow will be Epithumia, February - a weekend.
Eric Harrison
> minstrel? From a historic perspective (filtered through Nethack's
> worldview) a bard does seem more like a clerical-type class, although
> Andre's patch doesn't seem to be headed in quite that direction.
Yeah, Minstrel is a pretty good approximation of the sort of character
that I was thinking of. I guess in my head I imagine bards and
minstrels to be fairly interchangeable. It's probably not accurate,
but from the fantasy that I've read that's just the opinion I've
formed.
> I haven't got around to figuring out how to apply patches, but from
> Andre's summary it looks like a quite interesting idea, so I encourage
> him to keep at it.
This was the first patch I've ever applied and found it fairly simple.
All I did (on a Linux machine) is put the patch in the top level
directory (above src/ and include/ and the rest) and ran:
patch -p1 < bard.patch
Then ran make again. Everything went off without a hitch.
Also, I switched back to the old Google Groups interface, so hopefully
this reply will show up correctly for all of you lucky stiffs with
real newsreaders. :D Let me know if it's still wonky and I'll go and
try to find something better.
Jorgen Grahn
...
> Also, I switched back to the old Google Groups interface, so hopefully
> this reply will show up correctly for all of you lucky stiffs with
> real newsreaders. :D
It does look sane. Thanks. (But Google must have gotten pretty
clueless recently if they cannot even fathom Usenet threading.)
GaryOlson
wrote:
Changes in UnNethack make this patch incompatible with UnNethack.
Just testing for fun.....
Hunk #1 FAILED at 594.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/mhitm.c.rej
Hunk #2 FAILED at 243.
Hunk #3 FAILED at 275.
2 out of 3 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/shknam.c.rej
Hunk #1 FAILED at 162.
Hunk #2 succeeded at 212 (offset -13 lines).
1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file util/lev_main.c.rej
[unnethack-3.5.3-20101010]$
Gary
Patric Mueller
>
> Changes in UnNethack make this patch incompatible with UnNethack.
> Just testing for fun.....
Of course that's not surprising. :)
Also note that UnNetHack already got a music shop called "rare
instruments".
Bye
Patric
--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch - http://nethack-de.sf.net/
UnNetHack: http://apps.sf.net/trac/unnethack/
Patric Mueller
>
> I also like the idea of adding a new shop type (music shop) though I'm
> wary of new shop types without mucking with the generation code a bit.
> Shops are already rare enough to be a game changer and two music shops
> on DLVL 2 & 3 could cripple a game in it's early stages. Other shops
You know that the shops on dlvl 2 and 3 are not guaranteed?
But also when you get shops that doesn't mean they are helpful. For
example a weapon shop is of limited use for a monk.
> (armor, general store, bookstore) are fairly positive additions to the
> game, but I'm afraid a music store would get in the way.
The music store in the current patch is as likely as a ring or
hardware store.
If that is too much a solution would be to reduce the chance and
adding a guaranteed shop in the quest?
Another idea would be to adjust shop generation based on role (I think
that's what you were suggesting).
Instruments are rather rare and the likelihood of getting those should
surely be increased for this patch.
Eric Harrison
> Eric Ryan Harrison <blis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I also like the idea of adding a new shop type (music shop) though I'm
> > wary of new shop types without mucking with the generation code a bit.
> > Shops are already rare enough to be a game changer and two music shops
> > on DLVL 2 & 3 could cripple a game in it's early stages. Other shops
>
> You know that the shops on dlvl 2 and 3 are not guaranteed?
Of course they're not, but levels 2 and 3 have the highest regular
level chance of shop generation. A large armor shop in dlvl2 can set
the tone for the entire game. It's just that now, for the most part,
the types of shops that can be generated are mostly beneficial.
Additional "less helpful" shop types would increase overall game
difficulty, especially in the early game. That is my big concern.
>
> But also when you get shops that doesn't mean they are helpful. For
> example a weapon shop is of limited use for a monk.
True, nothing is ever perfect or the game wouldn't be as much fun. I
have no problem with that.
>
> > (armor, general store, bookstore) are fairly positive additions to the
> > game, but I'm afraid a music store would get in the way.
>
> The music store in the current patch is as likely as a ring or
> hardware store.
>
> If that is too much a solution would be to reduce the chance and
> adding a guaranteed shop in the quest?
This is an interesting idea. I like the idea of perhaps adding one
guaranteed shop for each classes quest. Tailor it to the class and
make it unique. Maybe you can even use this to introduce class-
specific items. Not artifacts, per se, but more like single items
(with a high cost) that kit out a character in the style of his class.
A samurai can get a helmet, armor, boots, and gloves of the Samurai
warriors (like you see in movies). Have it so that the armor is
expensive (10,000zm for the whole set) but have it be comparable to
regular DSM so that players will want to use it. Maybe give it
extrinsics like speed, stealth, and to-hit bonuses.
Maybe a healer will get a medical supply store which contains the
entire set of Healing spellbooks along with a +10 scalpel or something
else ridiculous that would be useful to that class.
Those sorts of things would really spice up the mid game I think.
>
> Another idea would be to adjust shop generation based on role (I think
> that's what you were suggesting).
This wasn't at all what I was suggesting, but I really love this idea.
This one is a keeper.
-E
André Bertelli Araújo
> I am playing with it now, and it is interesting. I do like the
> mechanics of the "musicalize spell" skill (though maybe it could be
> called "spell songs" or somesuch?).
I don't like the name 'musicalize spell' myself, but couldn't think of
anything better. But I'm open to suggestions. 'Spell songs' maybe can be
a better choice.
> I think you are a bit stingy on the skills for the class, though.
> Bards are inherently magical, yet their spell skills are on par with
> cavemen, and get outstripped by classes like rogues and tourists. I
> would maybe bump divination spells to skilled, and add a couple more
> to basic level, such as escape and healing.
>
> For weapon skills, I would consider bumping daggers and maybe clubs to
> expert level (think juggling here), moving short swords to skilled,
> and giving at least basic in sabers (seems like a nice light, flashy
> weapon appropriate for bards). I know these guys are not supposed to
> be combat experts, but as it stands, they are about on par with
> wizards in terms of weapon skills, and not as good as tourists and
> healers, which seems a bit too weak.
Yes, I'm trying to force bards to rely primarily in their musical
instruments. The idea is to keep them as lousy fighters and
spellcasters, but able to make and keep lots of pets (even temporary
pets) who will do the dirty work for them. :)
André Bertelli Araújo
André Bertelli Araújo
[snipped discussions about music shops unbalancing or not the game]
Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> writes:
> Instruments are rather rare and the likelihood of getting those should
> surely be increased for this patch.
That was the intention when creating the music shop, yes. I think the
chance of it being created is low enough not to create unnecessary
balancing problems, while still providing another source of musical
instruments in Nethack. If the RNG smiles on you...
Also note that this patch adds musical instruments to the inventory of
some (mid-level) monsters too.
Janis Papanagnou
> On Feb 7, 6:30 am, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>> You know that the shops on dlvl 2 and 3 are not guaranteed?
>
> Of course they're not, but levels 2 and 3 have the highest regular
> level chance of shop generation. A large armor shop in dlvl2 can set
> the tone for the entire game.
Curious; are you quitting games that don't have an early shop?
Or are your characters always getting killed in those games?
> It's just that now, for the most part,
> the types of shops that can be generated are mostly beneficial.
> Additional "less helpful" shop types would increase overall game
> difficulty, especially in the early game. That is my big concern.
Yeah, an early shop can change your characters life; too sad that
I want to play (and win, _if possible_) *every* started game, so
in practice those shops are not too relevant given their overall
low generation probability.
>> The music store in the current patch is as likely as a ring or
>> hardware store.
>> If that is too much a solution would be to reduce the chance and
>> adding a guaranteed shop in the quest?
>
> This is an interesting idea. I like the idea of perhaps adding one
> guaranteed shop for each classes quest. Tailor it to the class and
> make it unique. Maybe you can even use this to introduce class-
> specific items. Not artifacts, per se, but more like single items
> (with a high cost) that kit out a character in the style of his class.
> A samurai can get a helmet, armor, boots, and gloves of the Samurai
> warriors (like you see in movies).
(What movies are those? - In Kurosawa's movies, for example, Toshiro
Mifune's, the hero's, outfit looks rather lousy in most cases.)
> Have it so that the armor is
> expensive (10,000zm for the whole set) but have it be comparable to
> regular DSM so that players will want to use it. Maybe give it
> extrinsics like speed, stealth, and to-hit bonuses.
How does price matter if you can let your pet steal it?
> Maybe a healer will get a medical supply store which contains the
> entire set of Healing spellbooks along with a +10 scalpel or something
> else ridiculous that would be useful to that class.
You mean, the game is too difficult, let's provide some items to make
it simpler? (Would +10 really suffice?)
> Those sorts of things would really spice up the mid game I think.
Depending on how much simpler you'd make the mid-game it could as well
make it less interesting, similar to the comparably easy late-game.
Janis
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger <dfre...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> When I read the word "bard" I pictured a character who came with a
>> taming instrument and skill at using it. At some skill level they can
>> convert hostiles to peacefuls or peacefuls to pets. I pictured it as a
>> combat avoidance class and a pet management class.
>
> This pretty much sums up my idea for a bard in Nethack.
The Pied Piper of Hamlin. Nice.
André Bertelli Araújo
>
> Changes in UnNethack make this patch incompatible with UnNethack.
> Just testing for fun.....
>
> Hunk #1 FAILED at 594.
> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/mhitm.c.rej
> Hunk #2 FAILED at 243.
> Hunk #3 FAILED at 275.
> 2 out of 3 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/shknam.c.rej
> Hunk #1 FAILED at 162.
> Hunk #2 succeeded at 212 (offset -13 lines).
> 1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file util/lev_main.c.rej
> [unnethack-3.5.3-20101010]$
I would be surprised if the patch applied without errors to any Nethack
variant... that said, I'd like to adapt the patch to Sporkhack, when I
feel it's stable enough. And when I have more time...