Are There Any Rubber Rings in the Market That AREN'T Made in China?

[pherfect]

Specifically em's. Even the ones sold at PBR are from China-Gloria
told me so. A long time collector told me this when I asked him if he
thought they had no bounce to them. "Yup" he said,"all made in China".
If anyone knows a vendor that sells AMERICAN MADE, please share info.
That will make my day, cause' flat rubber rings make a game a lot less
enjoyable.
-Chris

[CEG]

I'd like to know this as well. I really hate buying things made in
China, but sometimes we don't have a choice.

Chas

[JahBarron]

WICO's are made in China? I feel like they have really nice bounce to
them.


--
JahBarron
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[vid1900]

http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/pinball/rubber.htm



Don't know where they are made, but I like "Pure Gum Rubber", LOL.


--
vid1900

[pherfect]

To narrow it down, as long as it has good bounce, that's all that
matters. And what is WICO's?

[pherfect]

"Pure Gum Rubber" is quite a brag. Is this a unique quality to their
product? If so, I'd try em'.

[seymour.shabow]

Well, even if Marco's are made in china, they do have better bounce then
the ones I've gotten lately from the other major vendors. I think they
said they have a different formulation now?

Action pinball used to have the freshest bounciest rubber but it's been
several years since I've ordered from them.

I heard that white or black is the same bounce now from other rubbers
which is a shame.

[JahBarron]

Wico is a brand name, like Happ or ABC.


--
JahBarron

[JahBarron]

This isn't exactly on subject but CFH offers some interesting insight
here on pinball rubber. Taken from Pinside, but it was posted here on
RGP several months back:

-as many know, I don't post to RGP any more. But for this, i will make
one exception. I can offer some facts on rubber that perhaps a lot of
people don't know. You all may find it useful in rubber choice on
games.

First off, rubber today is WAY different than rubber from the past.
Since the end of "ABC" rubber (which Williams had a good share), things
have changed in the world of pinball rubber. ABC rubber was the standard
by which all other rubber was and should be compared. It was perfect
rubber in terms of durometer and durability. I think most people will
agree on that (at least those that remember ABC rubber.)

Today, largely, there is really just one maker of rubber in Taiwan. They
hold the molds for Terry (Pinball Life), Steve Young, Marco, and the
other guys that make rubber. So when you buy Pinball
Life rubber and you see "PL" on the rubber, it's really no different
than the other brands (generally speaking, though there are some
exceptions.) Same formula, just they use the molds belonging to whomever
is ordering rubber.

That said, today's White rubber is absolute trash. SR is quite right
that putting white rubber on games today is suicide. Today's white
rubber is way too soft. It has no longevity, and comes apart quickly.
(about 3 weeks white mini-posts fall apart or rip, and slingshots tear
and fall apart.)

I operate games, and frankly I can't use today's white rubber. For games
in your home, I'm sure it's fine. But out in the "commercial world", new
white rubber is junk. The formula is bad, improper, and useless, in my
experience. It's way too soft and way too white, and just wears really
poorly. For your game room it's soft and spongy, really white, and
probably works well for the 100 to 200 games you'll put on your machines
in a year. But out in the field, new white rubber does not work in high
play environments.

I've discussed this with Terry at PL. He doesn't want to change things.
His customer base is home owners, and they like the soft-like-bubble-gum
white rubber. So after considerable whining to Terry and Mark at Marco
by Tim Arnold and myself, Marco has come up with a NEW formula for white
rubber. We've been testing it for Marco, and I have to say, it's a HUGE
improvement over the stuff everyone else is selling.

So is the new Marco rubber better than ABC rubber of old? Frankly, no. I
would say the new Marco rubber is a lot like the HAPP and WICO rubber of
10 years ago. Not amazing, not perfect, but miles ahead of the stuff
everyone else is selling today. I've found it far more durable on my
games.
I believe Tim Arnold is getting about the same results too. Hats off to
Marco!

Now a little about the history of rubber. You'll ask how i know this
useless crap, but i *collect* white rubber. I have stock piles of ABC
rubber from 15 years ago, brand new, stored in ziplock bags, in dark
cabinets. I also have Wico, Happ, and a few other brands offered over
the last 15 years. I have this stuff in huge qualities too, so i can
test and compare today's rubber to the "rubber of old." (It gives a nice
point of reference, as I have about 10,000 pieces of white rubber in
inventory.)

I also have some black rubber too from years ago, but not nearly the
quantities to do much testing. I will say this about black rubber today,
it's better than black rubber of old. Today's black rubber is actually
pretty decent. Hence SR's usage of it today is really not a huge factor.
Personally I like (vintage) white rubber better than today's black
rubber, but that's me. I completely understand why SR uses black. I mean
I don't like it, but given the choice of today's black versus today's
white rubber, black wins in durability by miles. It still looks like
hell though - clean white rubber will always win in looks. (Sorry SR.)

I will say this though. We are operating all the new Sterns, including
SR's titles. And they all have vintage white rubber on them. People come
play them and are like, "Wow this game is really
different, i like it!" The games play more difficult, with different
bounce properties. spiderman is the perfect example. With black rubber,
I find game times to be fairly high (in excess of 5 minutes.)
Switched to vintage white rubber, and game times are about 3 minutes.
The game is a lot harder, and frankly a lot more fun! Personally i like
that, but that's me. Some people find it more frustrating, but in the
end, that just means they play more games!

We also use vintage ABC rubber on a lot of our games (both Tim and I
have some inventory of original ABC.) It's still the standard that all
others should strive. But I've largely moved to using vintage ABC on EM
games only, and use vintage white Happ and Wico (etc.) on the solidstate
games. The only "new" white rubber I use (other than the Marco stuff) is
mini-posts, as i have NO old inventory of white mini posts! This really
sucks because today's white mini-posts last about 3 weeks. PLEASE TERRY
LISTEN.

I hope this helps everyone. I won't do any follow up posts to this. I
just hope it helps. Also if you could all support Marco and his new
flavor of white rubber, I think that would be good move (the price of
his new rubber is no different than existing white rubber.) When
ordering you have to talk to Mark about getting it, the new Marco white
rubber is not the "default" rubber that he sells.-

[seymour.shabow]

JahBarron wrote:
> This isn't exactly on subject but CFH offers some interesting insight
> here on pinball rubber.

Sure it's on subject, that's the post where I got the info about Marco's
rubber from ;)

It's really odd, because some of the rubber comes from marco in certain
sizes with the "PL" from pinball life on it! So, the company that makes
it probably is all the same and they don't pay too much attention to
which mold they use.

[JahBarron]

Before I read that, I didn't know the quality of the ABC stuff. There's
a ton of it at in the shop that I do some work out of sometimes. I
always opted for the whiter Happ and Wico stuff.

Consider myself "learnt".

[Frank Furhter]

JahBarron wrote:
> Wico is a brand name, like Happ or ABC.

And they are all coming out of chinkland with lot and lots of clay
(cutting material) in them, worthless crap. If you really want quality,
go with the 'premium' bands available from Marco, not their regular
stuff. They are much better, last longer, and formula is known and
changed/controlled. Look at other threads on this, I have covered this
topic quite a few times before. A/B/C and D comparisons as well.
--
The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!)

[Pinballed]

"chinkland"?! *facepalm*

[John Robertson]

JahBarron wrote:
> Before I read that, I didn't know the quality of the ABC stuff. There's
> a ton of it at in the shop that I do some work out of sometimes. I
> always opted for the whiter Happ and Wico stuff.
>
> Consider myself "learnt".
>
>

I have NOS bags of rubber rings from the 1970s that still seems to be in
pretty good condition - however the colour is not the modern bright
white and so I have not tried to sell them.

Perhaps I will now - sizes from around 3" to 6" diameter...

Unknown manufacturer though, may have come from WICO in those days (most
likely) however the distributor wasa major Williams distributor at that
time and may have got them from the factory...

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[homebrood]

I'm sorry but I've been using PBR and PBL for rubber for years and I just got a couple sets of rubber from PBR and they were as fresh and bouncy as any I've seen. Not had any bad non bouncy white rubber though I know it is out there but generally speaking I just don't see the problem here. White rubber also wears a lot better than the black, and doesn't leave that black crap everywhere. Much more bouncy too. And PBL rubber is always fresh and bouncy. You guys got a bad batch or something. Todays pinball rubber overall is as good if not better than ever. There are way more pressing issues going forward than getting concerned about the quality of todays rubber... It's good! IMO.

Tom

[Frank Furhter]

John Robertson wrote:
> JahBarron wrote:
>> Before I read that, I didn't know the quality of the ABC stuff. There's
>> a ton of it at in the shop that I do some work out of sometimes. I
>> always opted for the whiter Happ and Wico stuff.
>> Consider myself "learnt".
>>
>>
>
> I have NOS bags of rubber rings from the 1970s that still seems to be in
> pretty good condition - however the colour is not the modern bright
> white and so I have not tried to sell them.
>
> Perhaps I will now - sizes from around 3" to 6" diameter...
>
> Unknown manufacturer though, may have come from WICO in those days (most
> likely) however the distributor wasa major Williams distributor at that
> time and may have got them from the factory...
>
> John :-#)#
>

Don't blow them out, sell them for a max premium just like all things
pinball that are US or original NOS. Bend over sales, its typical. :)

[Frank Furhter]

New PBR is gummy worms, the old stuff is dry rot with clay.
The PL stuff is the same as latter.
Gene's stuff is hard as rock, durable in a bad way.
Marco's stuff old is same as 2nd latter, but the new premium is best of
all on the market right now.

[jammer74]

On Oct 20, 9:27 pm, Frank Furhter <fr...@furhter.com> wrote:
> homebrood wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:24:05 PM UTC-5, pherfect wrote:
> >> Specifically em's. Even the ones sold at PBR are from China-Gloria
>
> >> told me so. A long time collector told me this when I asked him if he
>
> >> thought they had no bounce to them. "Yup" he said,"all made in China".
>
> >> If anyone knows a vendor that sells AMERICAN MADE, please share info.
>
> >> That will make my day, cause' flat rubber rings make a game a lot less
>
> >> enjoyable.
>
> >> -Chris
>
> > I'm sorry but I've been using PBR and PBL for rubber for years and I just got a couple sets of rubber from PBR and they were as fresh and bouncy as any I've seen. Not had any bad non bouncy white rubber though I know it is out there but generally speaking I just don't see the problem here. White rubber also wears a lot better than the black, and doesn't leave that black crap everywhere. Much more bouncy too. And PBL rubber is always fresh and bouncy. You guys got a bad batch or something. Todays pinball rubber overall is as good if not better than ever. There are way more pressing issues going forward than getting concerned about the quality of todays rubber... It's good!
>

> > Tom
>
> New PBR is gummy worms, the old stuff is dry rot with clay.
> The PL stuff is the same as latter.
> Gene's stuff is hard as rock, durable in a bad way.
> Marco's stuff old is same as 2nd latter, but the new premium is best of
> all on the market right now.
>
> --
> The Frankster, a playfield prankster
>    Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
>      http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
>        CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!

During a conversation about the color variety of rubber he has,Gene
himself told me at the mipinball expo this past year that he owns the
molds for the rubbers he sells. I could only assume his are made in
the U.S. of A.

[pherfect]

The last set I got from PBR that were bouncy was 2 years ago. The last
five I've ordered were flat.

[Hammer5550]

I read somewhere the Gene had the original Bally Williams molds and that's what he uses to make his rubber. I like that he makes it in different colors, I just wish he made it in more sizes.

[G]

Jah B:

Thanks for sharing. Great history lesson. I have a small stash left of Happ I purchased in early 2000 but running low.

Several questions:

When will, they be available for sale from Marco?

Will they have a special branding ie PL?

Why don't we have USA made? Why just in Taiwan other than the obvious?

Thanks again for the info.

G

[David Gersic]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:50:45 -0700 (PDT), jammer74 <pban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> During a conversation about the color variety of rubber he has,Gene
> himself told me at the mipinball expo this past year that he owns the
> molds for the rubbers he sells. I could only assume his are made in
> the U.S. of A.

Knowing that Gene owns the mold doesn't tell you where that mold is
actually at or where it's being used. Unless Gene also owns the facility
that's using the mold to make rubbers, it could very easily be that
he's getting them from China too.

--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Ford: (backwards) Driver Returns On Foot |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |

[Frank Furhter]

David Gersic wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:50:45 -0700 (PDT), jammer74 <pban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> During a conversation about the color variety of rubber he has,Gene
>> himself told me at the mipinball expo this past year that he owns the
>> molds for the rubbers he sells. I could only assume his are made in
>> the U.S. of A.
>
> Knowing that Gene owns the mold doesn't tell you where that mold is
> actually at or where it's being used. Unless Gene also owns the facility
> that's using the mold to make rubbers, it could very easily be that
> he's getting them from China too.
>

Exactly, don't assume the molds are in the US. He has said they are
original Bally forms and who the hell knows what raw materials or where
he is putting it all together. I'm thinking high nitrogen values in milk.

--
The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.

CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!)

[G]

I would like a follow up on the new Marco formula and if that is what I might receive in my recently placed order.

I believe I have the answer to my other question of who sells what? It sounds like all white rubber is created in the same factory?

[Gatecrasher]

It really doesn't matter where the parts are molded as far as the
physical properties of the rubber goes. What matters is the chemistry
and there is no reason that the elastomeric properties of the ABC or
rubbers from "the good old days" can't be replicated today or even
improved upon.

In highly improbable that the actual rubber used for the ABC product was
produced in America although it is possible. Most-likely the raw
materials originated from South America back then and was molded in the
United States.

It should be fairly easy to duplicate the rubber used for the ABC
product if it really is any different than the materials being used
today. It would need to be sent to a lab for testing though.

The term "natural gum rubber" is used to differentiate tree rubber based
products from synthetic thermoplastic elastomers. I have used both
materials from time to time in my profession.


--
Gatecrasher

*Quality Pinball Parts Made In The USA! *
Buy Direct and Save $

' *http://oi50.tinypic.com/1zy78p.jpg* '
(http://oi50.tinypic.com/1zy78p.jpg)

[vivasantana]

Your reply is way to long and
I will stay with PBR & RGP thanks.
Rob

Rock on Carlos, Rock on!
Six decades strong!

[Frank Furhter]

vivasantana wrote:

>>
>> First off, rubber today is WAY different than rubber from the past.

[...] I think most people will agree on that (at least those that

remember ABC rubber.)

>> Today, largely, there is really just one maker of rubber in Taiwan.

[...]

>> Same formula, just they use the molds belonging to whomever is ordering rubber.

>> That said, today's White rubber is absolute trash. [...] way too soft.
[...]
>> The formula is bad, improper, and useless...

>> I've discussed this with Terry at PL. He doesn't want to change things.

[...]

>> So after considerable whining to Terry and Mark at Marco
>> by Tim Arnold and myself, Marco has come up with a NEW formula for white
>> rubber. We've been testing it for Marco, and I have to say, it's a HUGE

[...]

>> --
>>
>> JahBarron
>>
>> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
>
> Your reply is way to long and
> I will stay with PBR & RGP thanks.
> Rob

Based on what, your desire to keep sales of inferior product in the
marketplace? Great logic.

>
> Rock on Carlos, Rock on!
> Six decades strong!
>

[G]

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 3:22:04 PM UTC-5, Gatecrasher wrote:
> It really doesn't matter where the parts are molded as far as the
>
> physical properties of the rubber goes. What matters is the chemistry
>
> and there is no reason that the elastomeric properties of the ABC or
>
> rubbers from "the good old days" can't be replicated today or even
>
> improved upon.
>
>
>
> In highly improbable that the actual rubber used for the ABC product was
>
> produced in America although it is possible. Most-likely the raw
>
> materials originated from South America back then and was molded in the
>
> United States.
>
>
>
> It should be fairly easy to duplicate the rubber used for the ABC
>
> product if it really is any different than the materials being used
>
> today. It would need to be sent to a lab for testing though.
>
>
>

>Thank you. I agree it could be duplicated.

I guess we will have to see unless someone reading this thread has purchased product from Marco.

[Frank Furhter]

I have, and it is FAR FAR better than anything anyone else is selling,
period. Claydo and TA have it right, on the money and it ain't cheep
either. The product from Marco (the higher end formula) is much more
durable, and bounces properly. The others are just gummy, or have been
produced with too much clay cutting agent (filler?)

[c...@provide.net]

On Saturday, October 20, 2012 3:24:05 PM UTC-4, pherfect wrote:
> Specifically em's. Even the ones sold at PBR are from China-Gloria
>
> told me so. A long time collector told me this when I asked him if he
>
> thought they had no bounce to them. "Yup" he said,"all made in China".
>
> If anyone knows a vendor that sells AMERICAN MADE, please share info.
>
> That will make my day, cause' flat rubber rings make a game a lot less
>
> enjoyable.
>
> -Chris

Actually to my knowledge all the pinball rubber seen today
isn't made in China, it's made in Taiwan. I guess that's china
to some extent. But there's only ABC, who is still in business
and in Wisconsin, but just doesn't do pinball rubber any more.
(Apparently unless large quantities are ordered, like WMS was
ordering, they don't want to deal with it - that's the rumor
anyway.)

Marco Specialties and their new rubber formula is pretty much
the only game for decent new rubber. I've beat up Terry at
Pinball Life many times about re-formulating the crap he is
currently selling. He seems to have no interest in doing this.
My suggestion is that others beat him up on it too. Eventually
he'll come around and re-formulate his rubber, like Marco did.
At least you would think he would...

[Gott Lieb?]

Does Lavelle actually still have the ABC molds?

Jim

[phergo...@gmail.com]

Since posting this thread, I have used Marcos on three of my games- BIG improvement!

[G]

On Friday, March 8, 2013 7:53:32 AM UTC-5, c...@provide.net wrote:
> On Saturday, October 20, 2012 3:24:05 PM UTC-4, pherfect wrote:
>
> > Specifically em's. Even the ones sold at PBR are from China-Gloria
>
> >
>
> > told me so. A long time collector told me this when I asked him if he
>
> >
>
> > thought they had no bounce to them. "Yup" he said,"all made in China".
>
> >
>
> > If anyone knows a vendor that sells AMERICAN MADE, please share info.
>
> >
>
> > That will make my day, cause' flat rubber rings make a game a lot less
>
> >
>
> > enjoyable.
>
> >
>
> > -Chris
>
>
>
> Actually to my knowledge all the pinball rubber seen today
>
> isn't made in China, it's made in Taiwan. I guess that's china
>
> to some extent. But there's only ABC, who is still in business
>
> and in Wisconsin, but just doesn't do pinball rubber any more.
>
> (Apparently unless large quantities are ordered, like WMS was
>
> ordering, they don't want to deal with it - that's the rumor
>
> anyway.)
>
>
>
> Marco Specialties and their new rubber formula is pretty much
>
> the only game for decent new rubber. I've beat up Terry at
>
> Pinball Life many times about re-formulating the crap he is
>
> currently selling.

I must have purchased some flipper rubbers from him while back and the colors and rubber are very different than the Wico and Happ rubber I purchased 10 years ago. The red is not very good color or quality. The yellow was a different shade from other vendors. Ok but not great.

I'm looking forward to receiving my order from Marco to do the comparison. I will report back.

[G]

On Friday, March 8, 2013 10:52:16 AM UTC-5, G wrote:
> On Friday, March 8, 2013 7:53:32 AM UTC-5, c...@provide.net wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, October 20, 2012 3:24:05 PM UTC-4, pherfect wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Specifically em's. Even the ones sold at PBR are from China-Gloria
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > told me so. A long time collector told me this when I asked him if he
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > thought they had no bounce to them. "Yup" he said,"all made in China".
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > If anyone knows a vendor that sells AMERICAN MADE, please share info.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > That will make my day, cause' flat rubber rings make a game a lot less
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > enjoyable.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -Chris
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Actually to my knowledge all the pinball rubber seen today
>
> >
>
> > isn't made in China, it's made in Taiwan. I guess that's china
>
> >
>
> > to some extent.

It doesn't matter to me where these are made. It's a nice product and met my expectations. Scott said it above: white and bouncy. Thanks again to Jahbarron for the information above.

They are branded PRW for all sizes from 1 to 4. 3/4 was PL and yellow flippers were Happ.

[G]

On Friday, March 8, 2013 8:58:25 AM UTC-5, phergo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Since posting this thread, I have used Marcos on three of my games- BIG improvement!

Thanks Phergo.

[Roy Fash]

How does the white rubber being sold by Pinball Resource compare to what
Marco is now selling?

wrote in message
news:ae72f80b-2dcb-4f13...@googlegroups.com...

[G]

I buy a lot of items from Steve but rubber is not one of them. I did buy a skateball rubber kit from him over 10 years ago but did not like them. They are two different types of rubber entirely if he is selling the same product today.