Stern needs to focus on Pinballs

[shlockdoc]

My Facebook post was deleted, but it seems Stern has time for worthless
Pinball blogs with spam posts and replies but cannot make a 6k+
Transformers LE work. Go buy a washer machine from sears and have it not
work as promised and intended for just $500 and see how the general
public reacts. Fit and finish wins. Go program our pins and stop trying
to be cool on Facebook. I don't care how good Steve Richie might be,
unfinished code sucks. Ask the public to buy an LP from an artist with
half the songs unfinished. Lame. No wonder the secondary market is
heating up for B and C Bally Williams titles. Total lack of confidence.


--
shlockdoc
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[snowdale]

Mine works, Yours doesnt?


--
snowdale

[Ben Yetter]

AGREED Its turned into a Laughing stock. Just like micro$oft release
unfinished product if it sells we will update if not meh. But as long
as people by there trash it will never stop. Lots of times in this
hobby there is more money than brains it seems.

[TheKorn]

shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote in news:shlockdo...@rrgparchive.com:

While you have some valid points, unfortunately your logic is not sound. The guy
writing the facebook updates is far removed from writing the software.

--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the web or on
DVD?

http://www.webwidevideo.com/

[Lloyd Olson]

If you want to mess with them, keep posting what you posted again and again
and see how long until they block you ( a customer ) LTG :)

"shlockdoc" <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote in message
news:shlockdo...@rrgparchive.com...

[shlockdoc]

When you have tons of threads filled with frustration and unfinished
code, raw openings, targets that need HEP and Chris Hutchins to save the
day, ball traps, bending switches to work, mini playfield that don't,
defective playfield, clear coat lifting, decals wrinkling and more
complaint threads than ever. You are a lucky man. With a line of
wreckage behind it of unfinished games, yeah I am frustrated. I don't
even want to open it right now. I am let down. LE does not seem to mean
a higher lever of quality, just toys that are slapped on. OK, i am happy
to skip the next few and wait for your review. Just my 2 cents.


--
shlockdoc

[Rare Hero]

To be fair, the guys doing the Facebook stuff aren't designing/
building/programming the games...so, it's not as if Facebook
shenanigans have any bearings on what's going on in the factory.

Greg

[photoarts1]

Love my TF machine, one of the fastest, hardest pins in my 18 pin
collection!!! Sure, their may be a few minor glitches, but
hey, most machines that I own have a glitch or two. Anyone that has
played the TF LE should easily concur that this is
a great innovative playing machine, simple as that....

p

[shlockdoc]

Mr. Korn, :-)

I understand the role of the social person vs. a programmer. It is a
company effort and they have no pride in craftsmanship. My comparison,
is that they have the bandwidth to remove a negative post but not answer
pressing programming issues. How would you feel if you bought a LE
automobile and 20% of the operating code was not existent. Then you had
to pullover and buy rubber do dads from radio shack as rare hero to make
it work? I want to open an LE and play. It is meant for homeowners not
Lloyd and the fine struggling operators remaining. I get tweaks and
light bulbs, please I don't need the this is pinball things break
speech.

[Castor E.]

On Jan 3, 3:34 pm, TheKorn <TheK...@TheKorn.Net> wrote:
> shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote innews:shlockdo...@rrgparchive.com:

Ya, he only does PR, Website, FB, etc and I don't think he does a good
job at even doing that. I received a nice email from Stern stating
new TFs code was released about a week after I already had it loaded
on my machine. pfft.
Wait for this friday and you'll see the same post "where is everyone
playing pinball this weekend?"

[Lloyd Olson]

It could have bearings on the factory if they piss off enough customers.

You'd think someone in charge would be concerned that one hand is
undermining the work of others. LTG :)

"Rare Hero" <rareh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c99b6dc9-148f-4f39...@k28g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

[shlockdoc]

photoarts1;1854244 Wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:32*pm, Ben Yetter <yetter... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

> > On Jan 3, 2:27*pm, shlockdoc <mkl... (AT) nj.rr (DOT) com> wrote:
> >
> > > My Facebook post was deleted, but it seems Stern has time for
> worthless
> > > Pinball blogs with spam posts and replies but cannot make a 6k+
> > > Transformers LE work. Go buy a washer machine from sears and have it
> not
> > > work as promised and intended for just $500 and see how the general
> > > public reacts. Fit and finish wins. Go program our pins and stop
> trying
> > > to be cool on Facebook. I don't care how good Steve Richie might
> be,
> > > unfinished code sucks. Ask the public to buy an LP from an artist
> with

> > > half the songs unfinished. Lame. *No wonder the secondary market is

> > > heating up for B and C Bally Williams titles. Total lack of
> confidence.
> >
> > > --
> > > shlockdoc

> > > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com
> >
> > AGREED *Its turned into a Laughing stock. Just like micro$oft release

> > unfinished product if it sells we will update if not meh. But as long
> > as people by there trash it will never stop. Lots of times in this
> > hobby there is more money than brains it seems.
>
> Love my TF machine, one of the fastest, hardest pins in my 18 pin
> collection!!! Sure, their may be a few minor glitches, but
> hey, most machines that I own have a glitch or two. Anyone that has
> played the TF LE should easily concur that this is
> a great innovative playing machine, simple as that....
>
> p

Congrats, as as long as you don't have MB, Sopranos and LOTR, yes it is
an innovative machine. :-)

[Lloyd Olson]

Perhaps giving Stern a call, and let your voice as a customer be heard. LTG

:)

"shlockdoc" <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote in message
news:shlockdo...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> I want to open an LE and play.

[shlockdoc]

I agree sorry for the rant. :-)

[Lloyd Olson]

You bought one, you aren't happy.

You are entitled to rant.

LTG :)

"shlockdoc" <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote in message
news:shlockdo...@rrgparchive.com...
>

[Castor E.]

I also heard back in the day, things were not much different opening a
NIB B/W pin. I heard operators were dealing with issues right out of
the box back then too.

[Lloyd Olson]

Stern had B/W beat for out of the box quality for a long time.

That is why I suggested the poster to call Stern and let them know.

LTG :)

"Castor E." <castor.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:23ab5771-e5f5-406b...@z25g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...

[shlockdoc]

The LE's are intended for home use. I am ok with tweaking but at the
new price points the out of the box issues are not acceptable. I guess
i have too high an expectation for a quality product. This is one case
where offshore production might help and decrease price to match
quality. I guess time will tell if the quality is there to sustain an
industry or we see Stern fall like so many great American products
into obscurity.

[Rare Hero]

On Jan 3, 12:49 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> Congrats, as as long as you don't have MB, Sopranos and LOTR, yes it is
> an innovative machine. :-)

Code code code ! Those games don't have two rulesets! :)

Greg

[chuck]

On Jan 3, 3:44 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> It could have bearings on the factory if they piss off enough customers.
>
> You'd think someone in charge would be concerned that one hand is
> undermining the work of others.  LTG :)

If you piss off all of your customers pretty soon all you have to do
is sit and post on the internet all day...

[KenH]

> That is why I suggested the poster to call Stern and let them know.
>
> LTG :)

Good advise. I had a SW issue (with a different game) and it was
resolved in about a week. I was impressed with their customer
service, consdering that I'm nobody to Stern.

[TheKorn]

shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote in news:shlockdo...@rrgparchive.com:

> I understand the role of the social person vs. a programmer. It is a
> company effort and they have no pride in craftsmanship. My comparison,
> is that they have the bandwidth to remove a negative post but not answer
> pressing programming issues.

If you need a mechanic, does it matter what the janitor is doing?

> How would you feel if you bought a LE
> automobile and 20% of the operating code was not existent.

I wouldn't be happy. But I wouldn't be grousing about the janitor, either.

[Joe S]

The complaints I'm hearing about TF LE mostly seem like minor tweaks
for the most part. I guess it depends on what the expectation is and
whether or not the homeowner owns a screwdriver and a nutdriver or
two. I don't believe that they marketed the games to be of higher
quality or go thru more testing, just that they'd have more features,
both in the hardware and software. I'm not necessarily defending
Stern here, but I bought one and it's been working great and is a
blast to play. I also own LoTR and MB and TF doesn't feel similar to
either of them because the rules are so different. Just my $.02. I'm
not crazy about all of the social media marketing/editing so I avoid
it completely.

[RotaryRex]

Be far better off scraping the ridiculous Facebook team and putting
the money stern waste paying those idiots to post the same shit on
Facebook and put the money into the games or better yet pay a group to
ensure quality control. I've never known anyone in a PR and marketing
position be so utterly bad at it to the point it's laughable.

[vid1900]

shlockdoc;1854230 Wrote:
> My Facebook post was deleted, but it seems Stern has time for worthless
> Pinball blogs with spam posts and replies but cannot make a 6k+
> Transformers LE work.

A few weeks ago we were at a TF LE unboxing party and the game worked
the whole night. Not even a stuck ball (and we did have two stuck balls
on AFM).


--
vid1900

[Jason]

Stern has real problems, that's for sure. But please remember, non-
working games have shipped out of every single manufacturer to ever
make a pinball machine. And it can be expected for negative comments
to be deleted from their public fanpage. If I were Stern, I'd delete
them also. They have a customer service dept for complaints, and
it's actually pretty good. I'm a previous NIB Stern customer who had
a problem which they fixed to my liking.

That said, Gary doesn't seem to have a real visionary there. He's
always been the businessman. He doesn't have Joe K there like he did
in the 90's. He got a boost when Wms went under, because he was the
only game in town and there was still (although lessening every day)
operator commitment to pinball, far greater than now. Then he got
some real talent (old and new) in, and some great machines were made,
with unprecendented home-style rulesets, just at the time when
everyone could afford a home that was too expensive for them, and had
cash to burn from selling their last home (to someone who it was too
expensive for). TSPP's and LOTR's moved out in great numbers,
followed by POTC. They earned on location, actually. They were
operated. Homeowners stuck them in their basements in a huge pinball
collector explosion. Stern was making huge profits. Party time ...

And that's where the visionary would've come in handy. They did
nothing at that point to really innovate, to look 10 years in the
future and ask "What will drive the market in ten years?" "How can
we innovate the look and technological feel of these things to get
them on location again, to entrall a new generation?" They did
nothing at all, but do the same old thing until they had to layoff
half the company.

Now they're rebuilding on the backs of the collectors, which is
working out well for them, urged along by JJP's pricepoints and
feature enhancements, who they are trying to derail and forestall.
But the innovation still isn't there at Stern. The visionary isn't
there. Thankfully, they won't be the only manufacturer soon. Then
you'll have a whole new customer service dept to harass. Because even
some WOZ's will ship out with issues, because they're pinball
machines. ;)

[metallik]

> I wouldn't be happy.  But I wouldn't be grousing about the janitor, either.

He's not. He's grousing about the COMPANY that employs the janitor
and the mechanic. The inner workings of Stern are not and should not
be his concern. I'm referencing his first post here.

Any employee capable of using Facebook and deleting wall posts is also
capable of applying adhesive foam to the backs of droptargets.. :)

(and if they're outsourcing the Facebook junk, that is money that
would be better spent on QC. These recent games are a joke,
especially the flipper-tightened-on-the-wire one)

These are the points I believe Schlockdoc are trying to make. Me, I
didn't buy a TFLE and really don't care. The Pro was OK, but nothing
spectacular, and the two new toys aren't going to really change that.
The LE paint jobs do look sweet, however. Really like the colors.

[photoarts1]

Joe, Completely agree with you all accounts. Yes, I too own a LOTR,
and I think TF is just as good or really better in my
opinion. My machine has been working fine as well, just needs a few
tweaks here and there.

p

[snowdale]

shlockdoc;1854284 Wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:50*pm, "Castor E." <castor.endofl... (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

> wrote:
> > I also heard back in the day, things were not much different opening
> a

> > NIB B/W pin. *I heard operators were dealing with issues right out of

> > the box back then too.
>
> The LE's are intended for home use. I am ok with tweaking but at the
> new price points the out of the box issues are not acceptable. I guess
> i have too high an expectation for a quality product. This is one case
> where offshore production might help and decrease price to match
> quality. I guess time will tell if the quality is there to sustain an
> industry or we see Stern fall like so many great American products
> into obscurity.

Dude, Open that shit. Play it.Love it. This game fucking rocks!!! There
is maybe 7 guys on hear with complaints posting multiple times. I mean,
there is a lot more owners out there enjoying a kickass game , problem
free.. like me.


--
snowdale

[bjones]

You're just not cool until you've bitched about Stern on RGP :)


--
bjones

[shlockdoc]

metallik;1854385 Wrote:
> > I wouldn't be happy. *But I wouldn't be grousing about the janitor,

Thank you - someone understands, We have all done the Stern tour, the
"social media department" is three feet from the drill press for
playfields.

Shame on Geprge Gomez and team for letting that drop target leave the
factory. Did he play one game of his own creation? Oh and thanks for the
misleading video with the transforming toy. Its called pride and they
lack that and cannot write code for it. I feel so close to them after
the four part meet the team video.

I have no issue with the people on this group or the owners of any pin.
I am let down pins have doubled in price and halfed in quality. A
restore with one of the many fine restorers is now a better value and
the quality is far superior. These pins are made specicially for the
collector market and has an implied quality. The owner and designer
signed them, would they not make sure those work. I guess I expect too
much guys. Sure compare them to a 30 year old (B/W) out of business
company and say see look just like them defects????

[shlockdoc]

I love my sterns, that is why it is here. Tron kicks ass. I am sure the
game is fun, the feedback has been a downer and the pro version at Expo
was not earth shattering. I am not dismissing your opinion, I just
expected more. Oh well based on the feedback, i guess we are blessed
they still make pins. I love fit and finish and it such a game changer.


--
shlockdoc

[phishrace]

On Jan 3, 12:38 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> I don't
> even want to open it right now. I am let down. LE does not seem to mean

Wait. You're doing all this complaining and you haven't even opened
yours yet? That makes no sense at all. No wonder they deleted your FB
post. Set it up and play 50 or 100 games, then tell us how you like
it. Until then, you don't have any reason to complain.

When pondering whether to buy one or not, how much consideration did
you give to the shortened development time for this game? Not much I'm
guessing.

-phish

[bjones]

To me, it's very narrow minded to think that new pins from any
manufacturer were ever shipped without the same basic issues we see
today. You can bet any amount of money you'd like that operators went
through the same toils getting 'new in box' games to operate perfectly.
They probably didn't care about cosmetics because they were to route,
not collect.

I think the anal retentiveness around rgp lately has just hit overdrive.
Any little flaw or even perceived flaw (because you'd do it different)
gets blown into an earth shattering event.. then, almost every time
when all the mudslingers get bored it starts to sneak out that the games
are actually good. Of Stern's last 8 games or so most are considered
quite good. When your last 5 years contain games like Tron,Iron Man,
Spider Man, Pirates, Transformers, Family Guy and the like you're doing
fine.

Who's to say code is finished or not? Why not do what you think is good
as a designer and then modify it after hundreds of customers play it not
so much to 'fix unfinished code' but to improve upon it? Of course a
popular game will get more feedback and more focus and evolve further
while a dud will probably not.

Wonder what everyone's gonna do when they realize that JJP's games have
the same types of catastrophic earth stopping dimples here and there on
playfields, or switches out of adjustment on arrival.. will it lead to
mass suicide? dogs and cats sleeping together?? MASS HYSTERIA!! Or
maybe common sense will kick in and people will just adjust the stupid
switch and be happy. I doubt it, but maybe :)


--
bjones

[Taylorva]

Stern shot themselves in the foot by hyping this game as the second
coming(which really means they hyped it all). People got excited and the
wind being blown out of their sails is what you are hearing right now.


As far as the Facebook thing, social media is a marketing tool. For Sten
it is the face of their company. If people are frustrated as hell about
their purchase and all they see coming from the company is their witty
and mysterious FB post I would be pissed too. How about an attempt to
keep buyers informed about fixes and upcoming updates? Seems like they
could use FB as a tool to communicate with their customers instead of
the campy crap they put on there.


--
Taylorva

[Bobby Conover]

On Jan 3, 7:14 pm, bjones <bso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wonder what everyone's gonna do when they realize that JJP's games have
> the same types of catastrophic earth stopping dimples here and there on
> playfields, or switches out of adjustment on arrival.. will it lead to
> mass suicide?  dogs and cats sleeping together?? MASS HYSTERIA!!  Or
> maybe common sense will kick in and people will just adjust the stupid
> switch and be happy. I doubt it, but maybe :)

True, I'm sure there will be issues with JJP games. But if there are,
I would be willing to bet they will actually address the issues head-
on rather than trying to sweep them under the rug by deleting our FB
comments.

[shlockdoc]

phishrace;1854543 Wrote:

I have no right to question or be concerned? I paid for the game and
question the intial feedback, but a tire kicker has the right? really?

So i need to a study of the "shortened dev time" to insure quality,
meaning you know they pumped a POS out the door and I did not?

You post confuses me. i have every right to ask #176, paying customer.

All this complaining. all this? Really, OK sure one post = all this.
Tell Gary Stern to come buy my pin back and Ill stop "complaining". My
issue is with Stern and their lack of attention to detail.

For all the folks that take issue with that, great. Why my question of
quality is turned into "anal" collector complaints ( LE made for
collectors, duh?) - ok.

This has nothing to do with any other pin mfg. JJP delivers crap he will
hear it. Period. If you want to settle with a defective pin great. I
expect and want a perfect product. Let Gary Stern, not drugstore cowboys
and people secretly paid by stern to be "in the know" on this group who
are obviouly missing from this debate come on here and say this is the
best it gets.


--
shlockdoc

[vid1900]

I've just been told that 2 of the people who keep complaining about
"Stern quality" lately, do not, in fact, own the game in question.

We need to stop feeding the trolls (and start asking for serial
numbers).


--
vid1900

[shlockdoc]

Taylorva;1854580 Wrote:
> Stern shot themselves in the foot by hyping this game as the second
> coming(which really means they hyped it all). People got excited and the
> wind being blown out of their sails is what you are hearing right now.
>
>
> As far as the Facebook thing, social media is a marketing tool. For Sten
> it is the face of their company. If people are frustrated as hell about
> their purchase and all they see coming from the company is their witty
> and mysterious FB post I would be pissed too. How about an attempt to
> keep buyers informed about fixes and upcoming updates? Seems like they
> could use FB as a tool to communicate with their customers instead of
> the campy crap they put on there.

Thank you and I agree 100% and I am sure it is normal to open a new 6k+
TOY and have to disable the drop target - the one drop target. SHAME ON
GOMEZ, Shame on that entre team. Please take the made in the USA off the
pins, you dont deserve to represent the fine hard working people of this
country with defective products released into the market place. That is
why class action suits started. Pinto gas tank = megatron drop target
;-)


--
shlockdoc

[shlockdoc]

vid1900;1854590 Wrote:
> I've just been told that 2 of the people who keep complaining about
> "Stern quality" lately, do not, in fact, own the game in question.
>
> We need to stop feeding the trolls (and start asking for serial
> numbers).

Who are those 2 people? I assume you are not referring to me? I am the
OP and it sounds as though this is intende for me?


--
shlockdoc

[Pinball Life]

Wow, pinball has now become a truly a 100% (OK, 95%) collector market.
Oh, how the times have changed.
My sense of dread comes from knowing what has happened in the past....
once the manufacturing sector becomes aware of the collector market and
taps into it, it's the beginning of the end.... see "baseball cards".
I would sleep well if someone could come up with a reason why history
will not repeat itself as I (of course) do not want it to.
Terry.


--
Pinball Life

[shlockdoc]

Terry I heard Genco had collector issues in 1937, darn anal customers.


--
shlockdoc

[Pinball Life]

shlockdoc;1854600 Wrote:
> Terry I heard Genco had collector issues in 1937, darn anal customers.

You're right of course, but the operators were a differnet breed of
buyer that bought the machine for different reasons. I'm not
disagreeing with your original post as much as I am simply commenting on
the change of the landscape.
VERY interesting times for pinball, that's can not be disputed.
Terry.


--
Pinball Life

[Lloyd Olson]

Because you can't trade Gary to the minors ?

LTG :)

"Pinball Life" <te...@pinballlife.com> wrote in message
news:Pinball.L...@rrgparchive.com...

[Lloyd Olson]

Who's the rat ? Come on, who told you ? Out with it.

LTG :)

"vid1900" <vid...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vid1900...@rrgparchive.com...

[LEE]

I still can't get over the fact that Sears now sells washer machines. I
use washers all the time and always have to search out and buy
individual sizes.
Now I can get a washer machine from Sears and make my own.

Yee Haa!!!


LEE


--
LEE

[shlockdoc]

For the record, I am and was quite pleased with the pins ops were buying
at those prices - pre LE. Love all my Sterns, just adaopting to the new
handcrafted AMG version and expect a higher standard of quality. At the
lower price point the the quality was commensurate with the price, now
60% more - step up your game.


--
shlockdoc

[Jason]

Yep. That analogy has been made here before, baseball cards along
with comic books, action figures, etc. Many examples of skinning the
collector market to industry demise. If pins aren't made primarily
for commercial use in coin-op amusement, then it's over as the
manufacturing business we know.

I don't know if it's fair to blame Stern for giving collectors what
they want, at this point and time, being where they are as a company,
but the problem is they need to be able to walk and chew gum. The
collector market is keeping you alive, right? While you're still
able to breathe, and design, then figure out a way for these things to
earn on location again. After all, that's the primary job of every
designer there. First and foremost goal: make it earn money on
location. And overall, it's been a consistent failure. And the same
guys keep making the same machines, year after decade. I don't think
they even bother to publish earnings reports anymore, that's how bad
they are.

Hopefully that will change soon...

[shlockdoc]

mECHsLAVE;1854638 Wrote:
> On Jan 3, 11:28*pm, Pinball Life <te... (AT) pinballlife (DOT) com>

> wrote:
> > Wow, pinball has now become a truly a 100% (OK, 95%) collector
> market.
> > Oh, how the times have changed.
> > My sense of dread comes from knowing what has happened in the
> past....
> > once the manufacturing sector becomes aware of the collector market
> and

> > taps into it, it's the beginning of the end.... *see "baseball

> cards".
> > I would sleep well if someone could come up with a reason why history
> > will not repeat itself as I (of course) do not want it to.
> > Terry.
> >
> > --
> > Pinball Life

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> Yep. That analogy has been made here before, baseball cards along
> with comic books, action figures, etc. Many examples of skinning the
> collector market to industry demise. If pins aren't made primarily
> for commercial use in coin-op amusement, then it's over as the
> manufacturing business we know.
>
> I don't know if it's fair to blame Stern for giving collectors what
> they want, at this point and time, being where they are as a company,
> but the problem is they need to be able to walk and chew gum. The
> collector market is keeping you alive, right? While you're still
> able to breathe, and design, then figure out a way for these things to
> earn on location again. After all, that's the primary job of every
> designer there. First and foremost goal: make it earn money on
> location. And overall, it's been a consistent failure. And the same
> guys keep making the same machines, year after decade. I don't think
> they even bother to publish earnings reports anymore, that's how bad
> they are.
>
> Hopefully that will change soon...

What did they give us collectors? Shoddy rushed product? I did not ask
for that.


--
shlockdoc

[CEllison]

On Jan 3, 8:21 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> Please take the made in the USA off the
> pins, you dont deserve to represent the fine hard working people of this
> country with defective products released into the market place.

> shlockdoc
> This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com

C'mon guys - can't we talk about pinball in a good light and bitch
about our wives and/or our jobs instead? I live by this FACT "Man made
and bound to fail." It's not if but when. And look at the percentages
factor here. Every part added to a machine adds an additonal failure
point which increases the failure percentage. Seriously think about
that for a moment. So if you get a NIB and it works perfectly that
means Stern beat the odds that are stacked against them by a whole
lot! and if there is something wrong with a NIB then consider just how
big of a percentage of compared to other stuff that does work. Let's
not forget the more human bodies that are involved the failure rate
percentage goes up even more.
There is no such thing as perfect in this world. This is why people
have warranties and companies have support options.

And how about you lucky bastards that can afford to buy a NIB - stop
and think for one moment that many of us that can't afford it would
kill to have a NIB - even one that isn't perfect. Too many positive
thngs in life to have such a negative stance dontcha think? Yeah - I
love it when I'm right.

So who wants bitches and cake?

-=Chris=-

[BC_Gambit]

I am not even sure why I am dumb enough to step into this tonight, but
after the previous LE's, I am not surprised by all the last minute
finangling that apparently went into this game.

If I wanted to depress myself, I would compile a spreadsheet of LE
expectations vs. reality.

The poster child of recent memory is the Tron LE moving recognizer.
They tested that thing so extensively apparently nobody notice that the
prototype was wired the opposite of the games coming of the line (in
terms of light sequence). Facepalm.

And did it even really matter? Apparently they had trouble mating the
motor to the light sequence, and just said "Eh, good enough. No biggie
if they are completely unrelated. Looks good to ship to me!"

Read this, and read it again if you have to. Stop and think about it.
What expectations would you have regarding future LE's?

I know I would have set them pretty low.

I am not a Stern hater, and I would love a Tron someday (LE or vanilla).
I just think expecting mind blowing excellence at this point is
delusional based upon their recent QC. Getting a fun game that mostly
works out of the box is a lower target that they appear to meet at least
most of the time.

I am not trying to point the finger at the buyers who stepped up and
ordered this game, or the company for delivering it. Its just the way
it is, and has been for some time. It will still be this way for the
next LE that is hyped in a few months time.


--
BC_Gambit

[shlockdoc]

CEllison;1854661 Wrote:

> On Jan 3, 8:21*pm, shlockdoc <mkl... (AT) nj.rr (DOT) com> wrote:
> > Please take the made in the USA off the
> > pins, you dont deserve to represent the fine hard working people of
> this
> > country with defective products released into the market place.
> > shlockdoc

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
>
> C'mon guys - can't we talk about pinball in a good light and bitch
> about our wives and/or our jobs instead? I live by this FACT "Man made
> and bound to fail." It's not if but when. And look at the percentages
> factor here. Every part added to a machine adds an additonal failure
> point which increases the failure percentage. Seriously think about
> that for a moment. So if you get a NIB and it works perfectly that
> means Stern beat the odds that are stacked against them by a whole
> lot! and if there is something wrong with a NIB then consider just how
> big of a percentage of compared to other stuff that does work. Let's
> not forget the more human bodies that are involved the failure rate
> percentage goes up even more.
> There is no such thing as perfect in this world. This is why people
> have warranties and companies have support options.
>
> And how about you lucky bastards that can afford to buy a NIB - stop
> and think for one moment that many of us that can't afford it would
> kill to have a NIB - even one that isn't perfect. Too many positive
> thngs in life to have such a negative stance dontcha think? Yeah - I
> love it when I'm right.
>
> So who wants bitches and cake?
>
> -=Chris=-

OK - the drop target is a known issue. A car company does a recall or
ships everyone a status of the fix letter. No communication, oh wait
"Are you playing pinball this weekend?" The LE's alone were a 6 million
dollar run, fix the disgusting drop target and the other issues. Shame
on Gomez letting this go out. Shame on Stern. Shame Shame Shame.

If you are Sterns legal counsel please chime in or buy me out. Otherwise
i would like to hear from Stern to all the LE holders. They know the
issue. Other designers and manufacturers have the backbone to come here
and address the 7K members. Bravo to JPOP, Jack, Lyman, Keith and the
others.


--

[Jason]

You have a valid complaint, in that it's obvious the drop target was a
complete after-thought. After all, it goes right through the FACE of
the Megatron artwork on the LE. Lol. Certainly not what was hyped
with the documentaries and all that. Maybe less hype talk,
documentary work next time, and focus on play testing and tweaking
features, so that the final product is as advertised.

But they are getting there, in baby steps. Lonnie has taken a page or
three out of Keith's book, in that there are many stackable features,
timed modes, chasing shots, 2x scoring stack, with the All Spark
acting as the Palantir. By the way, all that is GREAT! It's an
improvement over Lonnie's past software monotony. It sounds like TF
rules are very good. But it's also like, should we really be excited
that they've now gotten back to the level they were at with Keith,
several years ago? And we're paying a HELLuva lot more now. The
decals are also an improvement. There are bright spots, just to give
fair coverage, but like I've said, Stern has real problems still.

I definitely mirror some of your frustrations, but you have to be
fair. FB is not the place for those complaints or issues. That's the
way Stern wants it, and that's their right. Have you contacted Stern
service with a phone call? Have you simply offered yours up for
sale? I saw Hutchins just put his Decepticon up for sale today.
There's probably a solution, that doesn't involve Facebook posts or
Stern buying back your machine, which will resolve your problems.

[Pinwizkid]

On Jan 3, 3:27 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> My Facebook post was deleted, but it seems Stern has time for worthless
> Pinball blogs with spam posts and replies but cannot make a 6k+
> Transformers LE work. Go buy a washer machine from sears and have it not
> work as promised and intended for just $500 and see how the general
> public reacts. Fit and finish wins. Go program our pins and stop trying
> to be cool on Facebook. I don't care how good Steve Richie might be,
> unfinished code sucks. Ask the public to buy an LP from an artist with
> half the songs unfinished. Lame.  No wonder the secondary market is
> heating up for B and C Bally Williams titles. Total lack of confidence.

>
> --
> shlockdoc
> This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com

I think Stern is doing a very good job with their digital marketing
efforts. I work in web design and social media and they are doing
things the right way by engaging with anyone and everyone to keep
pinball in the minds of many. The recent website redesign is solid,
could have been a bit more polished. Like many have mentioned, the
designers and engineers are not the marketers - Stern probably uses a
third party to handle their branding and social media marketing. I
can't comment on Transformers LE, but I can say that it's certainly a
good idea for Stern to capitalize on the home collector market. Any
pinball sales are good pinball sales in this day and age.

-BB

[seymour.shabow]

shlockdoc wrote:
> My Facebook post was deleted, but it seems Stern has time for worthless
> Pinball blogs with spam posts and replies but cannot make a 6k+
> Transformers LE work. Go buy a washer machine from sears and have it not
> work as promised and intended for just $500 and see how the general
> public reacts. Fit and finish wins. Go program our pins and stop trying
> to be cool on Facebook. I don't care how good Steve Richie might be,
> unfinished code sucks. Ask the public to buy an LP from an artist with
> half the songs unfinished. Lame. No wonder the secondary market is
> heating up for B and C Bally Williams titles. Total lack of confidence.
>
>

No thanks, I don't want Jody Dankburg writing code for any stern games.

He didn't come off well IMO on the expo speech from pinball news, he
sounded like a marketing droid.

[Taylorva]

Pinwizkid;1854938 Wrote:

> On Jan 3, 3:27*pm, shlockdoc <mkl... (AT) nj.rr (DOT) com> wrote:
> > My Facebook post was deleted, but it seems Stern has time for
> worthless
> > Pinball blogs with spam posts and replies but cannot make a 6k+
> > Transformers LE work. Go buy a washer machine from sears and have it
> not
> > work as promised and intended for just $500 and see how the general
> > public reacts. Fit and finish wins. Go program our pins and stop
> trying
> > to be cool on Facebook. I don't care how good Steve Richie might be,
> > unfinished code sucks. Ask the public to buy an LP from an artist
> with

> > half the songs unfinished. Lame. *No wonder the secondary market is

> > heating up for B and C Bally Williams titles. Total lack of
> confidence.
> >
> > --
> > shlockdoc

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> I think Stern is doing a very good job with their digital marketing
> efforts. I work in web design and social media and they are doing
> things the right way by engaging with anyone and everyone to keep
> pinball in the minds of many. The recent website redesign is solid,
> could have been a bit more polished. Like many have mentioned, the
> designers and engineers are not the marketers - Stern probably uses a
> third party to handle their branding and social media marketing. I
> can't comment on Transformers LE, but I can say that it's certainly a
> good idea for Stern to capitalize on the home collector market. Any
> pinball sales are good pinball sales in this day and age.
>
> -BB

This is a small hobby and market. Their web page may be well designed
but nobody is buying their website, poor game designs and eventually
they won't need a web page.


--
Taylorva

[Duff]

This thread makes me laugh. Anyone paying attention to the chain of
events that started with Lawlor walking out can not be surprised with
the well documented downward spiral Stern has been in. If you are,
you are either nieve or insane. SM was the exception, and without the
passionate drive of one man to keep his integrity and name intact, it
would be all downhill. WOF became known as the milestone where
complete game code was a bonus and not guaranteed. Indy, Batman, CSI,
24. So desperate to have a win they went to a redueax of space jam
and ressurection of a sure winner from 2004. Collectors were this
fringe group of whining ungrateful nerds that don't move the needle.
Not even a smidge.

After cleaning house of anyone who was fighting the good fight, there
was a new spark in the air. The "Scrooge Mc Duck" era was upon us.
We got gems like Big buck, iron man, and Avatar. You say what about
IM, it was a hit. A broke clock is right twice a day. If having the
same basic rules redone three games in a row was not enough; we now
would get introduced to three different versions of mediocrity. Blah
blah blah, enough, I will get to my point.

As a proud owner of a WOF i realized you have to lay down to be walked
on. There has been no known evidence since the later part of 2007 to
say you will get a complete finished game with all the bells and
whistles we were used to. At the very least if you do not wait for 18
months to see how a new release is going to shake out, shame on you,
not Stern. Gary can run his company as poorly as he sees fit, I don't
have to buy it. If you choose to do the same thing over and over
again expecting different results, you would be insane.

As a footnote, i am not a Stern hater. All 4 games I own are Sterns,
I just stopped buying in the later part of 2007.

Respectfully your
An unsatisfied consumer..

[toolguy]

Sorry, but if anyone/group wants to change things or impact things, stop
buying the product!
It's common sense, a business can't survive unless it sells product.
Every time a new pin comes out, it's the same things, over and over.


--
toolguy

[ovfdfireman]

shlockdoc;1854284 Wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:50*pm, "Castor E." <castor.endofl... (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
> wrote:
> > I also heard back in the day, things were not much different opening
> a
> > NIB B/W pin. *I heard operators were dealing with issues right out of
> > the box back then too.
>
> The LE's are intended for home use. I am ok with tweaking but at the
> new price points the out of the box issues are not acceptable. I guess
> i have too high an expectation for a quality product. This is one case
> where offshore production might help and decrease price to match
> quality. I guess time will tell if the quality is there to sustain an
> industry or we see Stern fall like so many great American products
> into obscurity.

That is it....lower your expectation. I love Stern machines, the new
feeling and game play, however, by my 3rd I have come to realize that is
just how it is. Now I am on number 5 (NIB Stern). I actually thought I
got a perfect one (#3) which was a TRON, but within 10 games the right
flipper blew a fuse, the mosfet went bad. But Stern took care of the
issue. I suppose that is the key. I am happy with all of my Stern
machines and I have had 12 total over the last couple of years,
currently have 9 still. I agree w/ Lloyd just call Stern they will help
you out.


--
ovfdfireman

Greg

http://www.ovfdfireman.com

[snowdale]

mECHsLAVE;1854892 Wrote:

> > "Are you playing pinball this weekend?" *The LE's alone were a 6

> million
> > dollar run, fix the disgusting drop target and the other issues.

> *Shame

> > on Gomez letting this go out. Shame on Stern. Shame Shame Shame.
> >
> > If you are Sterns legal counsel please chime in or buy me out.
> Otherwise
> > i would like to hear from Stern to all the LE holders. They know the
> > issue. Other designers and manufacturers have the backbone to come
> here
> > and address the 7K members. Bravo to JPOP, Jack, Lyman, Keith and the
> > others.
> >
> > --
> > shlockdoc

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> You have a valid complaint, in that it's obvious the drop target was a
> complete after-thought. After all, it goes right through the FACE of
> the Megatron artwork on the LE. Lol. Certainly not what was hyped
> with the documentaries and all that. Maybe less hype talk,
> documentary work next time, and focus on play testing and tweaking
> features, so that the final product is as advertised.
>
> But they are getting there, in baby steps. Lonnie has taken a page or
> three out of Keith's book, in that there are many stackable features,
> timed modes, chasing shots, 2x scoring stack, with the All Spark
> acting as the Palantir. By the way, all that is GREAT! It's an
> improvement over Lonnie's past software monotony. It sounds like TF
> rules are very good. But it's also like, should we really be excited
> that they've now gotten back to the level they were at with Keith,
> several years ago? And we're paying a HELLuva lot more now. The
> decals are also an improvement. There are bright spots, just to give
> fair coverage, but like I've said, Stern has real problems still.
>
> I definitely mirror some of your frustrations, but you have to be
> fair. FB is not the place for those complaints or issues. That's the
> way Stern wants it, and that's their right. Have you contacted Stern
> service with a phone call? Have you simply offered yours up for
> sale? I saw Hutchins just put his Decepticon up for sale today.
> There's probably a solution, that doesn't involve Facebook posts or
> Stern buying back your machine, which will resolve your problems.

Another person who does not own a TFLE. Why waist your time on here.
What is your point. Enjoy your ruby slippers. Fucking troll. : )


--
snowdale

[shlockdoc]

To clear the record, i did not want to ruin the NIB feel for the new
TF owner in another thread, I AM NOT A STERN HATER. That is a sillly
and somewhat mean term. I do demand quality and feel maligned that i
ask for a good solid product and I am turned into a hater. Please lets
discuss the lack of testing, quality, design and overall rushed
product and I am generally letdown in Stern. I am not alone on this
one.

I have a few sterns myself and this should have no bearing on this
title or the amount of discussion that happens surrounding it.

I am psyched for everyone that is happy with the game. This thread is
not for you then. The emails of support though let me know i am not
alone.

This thread started with Stern's lack of communication during delivery
of a shoddy defective product. Calling cust serv. to say the drop
target is a disaster gets what? Their silly use of facebook is akin to
them mailing a letter to your home weekly asking "are you playing
pinball this weekend?'" How about a letter from the owner addressing
the issues or letting us customers know he cares and is aware of the
issue from the highest level.

Anyone who has the kutzpah to tell me TF is amazing - after you diable
this and remove that and twist this and replace that and score the
decal and do this and that. OK great, exactly. I love the polite
repsonse in the other thread " Look at the helpful posts on the
various sites to make your experience more fun." I put that in google
translate and came up with " fix the shoddy quality and you might like
it".

Again, I dont hate Stern, I dont hate TF, cool theme. I am letdown
with the quality, the deceptive video marketing and the lack of
committment from Stern to proactively address an obvious design flaw
and implementation. I am speaking up for all the TF owners, why would
anyone take exeption with that?

[Jason]

On Jan 5, 9:26 am, snowdale <snowd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another person who does not own a TFLE. Why waist your time on here.
> What is your point. Enjoy your ruby slippers. Fucking troll. : )
>

LOL You can't actually contest one thing anyone has said, so you
resort to a total nonsense post, capped with a vulgarity and ironic
name-calling. Very profound.

I'll let everyone marvel at the hypocrisy of your post on their
own. ;)

[Pappy Boyington]

On Jan 4, 12:15 am, BC_Gambit <BC_Gam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am not even sure why I am dumb enough to step into this tonight, but
> after the previous LE's, I am not surprised by all the last minute
> finangling that apparently went into this game.
>
> If I wanted to depress myself, I would compile a spreadsheet of LE
> expectations vs. reality.
>
> The poster child of recent memory is the Tron LE moving recognizer.
> They tested that thing so extensively apparently nobody notice that the
> prototype was wired the opposite of the games coming of the line (in
> terms of light sequence).  Facepalm.
>
> And did it even really matter?  Apparently they had trouble mating the
> motor to the light sequence, and just said "Eh, good enough.  No biggie
> if they are completely unrelated.  Looks good to ship to me!"
>

They fixed the motor to light sequence via a software revision within
a couple of weeks. I don't think there were any LEs that shipped with
a reversed wire. At least mine didn't.

Rich

[Sam]

I don't own a TF right now but do have Stern games. I'm on the fence
on TF. I love the theme and would jump at one in a heartbeat but
waited for reviews and such. It irks me that the majority of the
flaws are from the LE model since that's the one I would want to own.
At the end of the day though, what is stopping me from buying one
right now is my lack of confidence in Stern to address the flaws. My
main beef is with the IH mini pf, really. It sounds useless and
poorly executed. I'm torn. I wanted TF so badly and their marketing
really picked it up a notch and set some high expectations that the
game didn't live up to at the end for me.

*sigh*

Sam

[snowdale]

mECHsLAVE;1855499 Wrote:

My TFLE works perfect, so I can contest everything. How does you TFLE
work. I have never posted about something that has no relevance to me.
TROLL!!!

[BC_Gambit]

Papy Boyington;1855505 Wrote:

> On Jan 4, 12:15*am, BC_Gambit <BC_Gam... (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> > I am not even sure why I am dumb enough to step into this tonight,
> but
> > after the previous LE's, I am not surprised by all the last minute
> > finangling that apparently went into this game.
> >
> > If I wanted to depress myself, I would compile a spreadsheet of LE
> > expectations vs. reality.
> >
> > The poster child of recent memory is the Tron LE moving recognizer.
> > They tested that thing so extensively apparently nobody notice that
> the
> > prototype was wired the opposite of the games coming of the line (in

> > terms of light sequence). *Facepalm.
> >
> > And did it even really matter? *Apparently they had trouble mating
> the
> > motor to the light sequence, and just said "Eh, good enough. *No
> biggie
> > if they are completely unrelated. *Looks good to ship to me!"

> >
>
> They fixed the motor to light sequence via a software revision within
> a couple of weeks. I don't think there were any LEs that shipped with
> a reversed wire. At least mine didn't.
>
> Rich

They shipped with a reversed wire compared to the game the software was
developed for; I guess technically the development game was defective.
It was fixed with a software revision, but it is an example of the
"thorough" amount of testing these games receive as they come off the
line.

Does your recognizer hover only over the corresponding lit target on the
3 bank? If so, congrats. As far as I am aware, that was the intent
but they could not execute on this idea. I do not have a Tron LE with
which to compare, but I remember this being discussed to death last
summer.

Regardless, I would still enjoy Tron (either version) based upon my
limited play of this title to date. However, issues like this do not
make me step back and say "golly gee, how are they going to top this
amazing and flawless execution of their vision, how could their QC and
implementation get any better?".

[Jason]

This thread wasn't started because of your TFLE, but someone else's,
which isn't to his satisfaction. I do not own a TFLE, but I have
purchased a NIB Stern in the past, which had a major problem, which
they fixed (which I stated in the advice I gave him). What relevance
does the fact that yours 'works perfect' have to the fact that his
doesn't?

Once again, the Irony Bug bit you right in the keester.

LOL Want to try for 3 in a row?

[Pappy Boyington]

On Jan 5, 8:08 am, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:

> I have a few sterns myself and this should have no bearing on this
> title or the amount of discussion that happens surrounding it.

Yes it does. You can either talk from experience or from what you
heard from some stranger on RGP!

> This thread started with Stern's lack of communication during delivery
> of a shoddy defective product. Calling cust serv. to say the drop
> target is a disaster gets what? Their silly use of facebook is akin to
> them mailing a letter to your home weekly asking "are you playing
> pinball this weekend?'" How about a letter from the owner addressing
> the issues or letting us customers know he cares and is aware of the
> issue from the highest level.

Could the real issue be that you are pissed that they deleted your
Facebook message? Maybe you are being way to dramatic about this
situation?
If you actually bought a TF then we would know you are speaking from
experience. Otherwise it just seems you are just bitching because of
Facebook.

> Again, I dont hate Stern, I dont hate TF, cool theme. I am letdown
> with the quality, the deceptive video marketing

So your mad because they didn't put that toy in the game? Things get
left out. Bally Williams did it too.

and the lack of
> committment from Stern to proactively address an obvious design flaw
> and implementation. I am speaking up for all the TF owners, why would
> anyone take exeption with that?

Because all this seems like you are just pissed because they deleted
your post on Facebook. Now you're saying you are the voice for all TF
owners? Really?

Rich

[snowdale]

mECHsLAVE;1855532 Wrote:

> On Jan 5, 10:02*am, snowdale <snowd... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> > mECHsLAVE;1855499 Wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 9:26*am, snowdale <snowd... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Another person who does not own a TFLE. Why waist your time on
> here.
> > > > What is your point. Enjoy your ruby slippers. Fucking troll. : )
> >

> > > LOL * You can't actually contest one thing anyone has said, so you

> > > resort to a total nonsense post, capped with a vulgarity and ironic

> > > name-calling. *Very profound.

> >
> > > I'll let everyone marvel at the hypocrisy of your post on their

> > > own. *;)

> >
> > My TFLE works perfect, so I can contest everything. How does you TFLE
> > work. I have never posted about something that has no relevance to
> me.
> > TROLL!!!
> >
> > --
> > snowdale

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

[Joe S]

This entire thread is rather perplexing to me. The OP hasn't opened
his NIB game and doesn't want to becasue he hears on RGP that there
are problems with it. The primary problem is a drop target that
causes airballs, that Stern has acknowledged they are working on a fix
for. This probably should have been handled before the games shipped,
but it wasn't. No biggie in my opinion. I've been playing mine with
the drop some and with it disabled some. I prefer it disabled at this
point, and it actually makes the game tougher as you must hit the
three blue stand-ups to qualify the lock. Sopranos has the same
airballs off the drop in front of the ramp. Twilight zone has the
same issue with the stand-up target next to the slot machine
scoop....with various collector-made fixes to address it.

I personally don't feel like a victim of 'deceptive marketing' because
of a marketing video showing Gomez playing with a transforming toy. I
also ignore the facebook PR stuff from their marketing guy, because
it's just marketing fluff.

I've found Stern's technical support to be outstanding when needed. I
do not expect them to browse RGP everyday to find my complaints, and
have Gary Stern himslef or his counsel call me to discuss my perceived
issues with a game. If something doesn't work, call tech support.
They're good.

Just offering a balnced counter-point to some of this thread. I own
several Stern machines (8 or so), most bought NIB, a bunch of B/W 90's
games, and a dozen or so early solid states so I'm not playing the
part of the "Stern is perfect Fanboy" here.

[treborlicec]

mECHsLAVE;1855532 Wrote:

> On Jan 5, 10:02*am, snowdale <snowd... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> > mECHsLAVE;1855499 Wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 9:26*am, snowdale <snowd... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Another person who does not own a TFLE. Why waist your time on
> here.
> > > > What is your point. Enjoy your ruby slippers. Fucking troll. : )
> >

> > > LOL * You can't actually contest one thing anyone has said, so you

> > > resort to a total nonsense post, capped with a vulgarity and ironic

> > > name-calling. *Very profound.

> >
> > > I'll let everyone marvel at the hypocrisy of your post on their

> > > own. *;)

> >
> > My TFLE works perfect, so I can contest everything. How does you TFLE
> > work. I have never posted about something that has no relevance to
> me.
> > TROLL!!!
> >
> > --
> > snowdale

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> This thread wasn't started because of your TFLE, but someone else's,
> which isn't to his satisfaction. I do not own a TFLE, but I have
> purchased a NIB Stern in the past, which had a major problem, which
> they fixed (which I stated in the advice I gave him). What relevance
> does the fact that yours 'works perfect' have to the fact that his
> doesn't?
>
> Once again, the Irony Bug bit you right in the keester.
>
> LOL Want to try for 3 in a row?

Not that I'm one to argue, but the OP hasn't even opened his TFLE yet.
He is upset with the general issues, not specifically his game.


--
treborlicec

[Chad H]

BC_Gambit;1855524 Wrote:
> Does your recognizer hover only over the corresponding lit target on the
> 3 bank? If so, congrats. As far as I am aware, that was the intent
> but they could not execute on this idea. I do not have a Tron LE with
> which to compare, but I remember this being discussed to death last
> summer.
>
> Regardless, I would still enjoy Tron (either version) based upon my
> limited play of this title to date. However, issues like this do not
> make me step back and say "golly gee, how are they going to top this
> amazing and flawless execution of their vision, how could their QC and
> implementation get any better?".

Ummm... yes. The moving recognizer on TRON LE does hover over and is
synchronized with the corresponding lit target. They fixed that in a
code update long ago.

V1.3 - July 28, 2011
=======================
- Recognizer now moves with the lamps.


--
Chad H

[Pappy Boyington]

On Jan 5, 9:15 am, BC_Gambit <BC_Gam...@hotmail.com> wrote:


> Does your recognizer hover only over the corresponding lit target on the
> 3  bank?  If so, congrats.  As far as I am aware, that was the intent
> but they could not execute on this idea.  I do not have a Tron LE with
> which to compare, but I remember this being discussed to death last
> summer.

Yes, not that it's any big deal. I know how little issues get blown up
here but for me I would have rather had my game sooner rather than
wait for a software fix

>
> Regardless, I would still enjoy Tron (either version) based upon my
> limited play of this title to date.  However, issues like this do not
> make me step back and say "golly gee, how are they going to top this
> amazing and flawless execution of their vision, how could their QC and
> implementation get any better?".

For me it's understandable how such a small company who builds pinball
machines can let some things slip by. They are built by hand and these
things will happen. I realize though that they have slipped lately and
I don't know why, might be all the LE versions are confusing the
workers. They are trying to adapt and hopefully they will get better.
However to think a small pinball manufacturer should't have QC
problems is wishful thinking. We will all see when Jack gets things
going.

Rich

[Your Mods R Ugly]

New TZs did not have airball issues with that standup. Only after many plays did the standup get bent back.
They did have the nasty lock shot reject SDTM problem.

[BC_Gambit]

Chad H;1855616 Wrote:
> Ummm... yes. The moving recognizer on TRON LE does hover over and is
> synchronized with the corresponding lit target. They fixed that in a
> code update long ago.
>
> V1.3 - July 28, 2011
> =======================
> - Recognizer now moves with the lamps.

Thank you for the clarification. I remember the complaining about when
this was broken, but amazingly do not remember all the bitching that
must have gone on when this was fixed :).

I guess in terms of LE execution, Tron wins by a landslide. I can see
why this title has increased in price compared to the others.


--
BC_Gambit

[Gerry]

On Jan 4, 12:52 am, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> mECHsLAVE;1854638 Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 11:28*pm, Pinball Life <te... (AT) pinballlife (DOT) com>
> > wrote:
> > > Wow, pinball has now become a truly a 100% (OK, 95%) collector
> > market.
> > > Oh, how the times have changed.
> > > My sense of dread comes from knowing what has happened in the
> > past....
> > > once the manufacturing sector becomes aware of the collector market
> > and
> > > taps into it, it's the beginning of the end.... *see "baseball
> > cards".
> > > I would sleep well if someone could come up with a reason why history
> > > will not repeat itself as I (of course) do not want it to.
> > > Terry.
>
> > > --
> > > Pinball Life
> > > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com
>
> > Yep.  That analogy has been made here before, baseball cards along
> > with comic books, action figures, etc.  Many examples of skinning the
> > collector market to industry demise.   If pins aren't made primarily
> > for commercial use in coin-op amusement, then it's over as the
> > manufacturing business we know.
>
> > I don't know if it's fair to blame Stern for giving collectors what
> > they want, at this point and time, being where they are as a company,
> > but the problem is they need to be able to walk and chew gum.   The
> > collector market is keeping you alive, right?   While you're still
> > able to breathe, and design, then figure out a way for these things to
> > earn on location again.  After all, that's the primary job of every
> > designer there.  First and foremost goal:  make it earn money on
> > location.  And overall, it's been a consistent failure.  And the same
> > guys keep making the same machines, year after decade. I don't think
> > they even bother to publish earnings reports anymore, that's how bad
> > they are.
>
> > Hopefully that will change soon...
>
> What did they give us collectors? Shoddy rushed product? I did not ask
> for that.
>
> --
> shlockdoc
> This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Mark, i agree with your apprehension to open the game, after the
thought of putting legs on and watching the decals mimick the look of
a wrinkled scroum....LOL .....

and thinking you could be the guy pulling the glass off the pin 6
times during the course of a game....for 6K+

I read all that stuff too, and i would be hesitant in the the back of
my mind as well.....

Now Having the Airborne you had, i see the perfect example of what
you have in mind for a HUO (LE) game.....that thing is monster
quality, and what a game should be built like.....

Capcoms are amazing in every way...hardware, materials
etc.....actually i think they are the polar opposite of stern..over
engineered and overbuilt.....( maybe that why they are not around
now ...i cant say much about that....anyway..

There is a definite lack of that in alot of the stern products.....

When shitting out 6+ on a pin, you shouldnt have to expect or
(accept) cheap crap....for 3K a bit of crap is easier to accept...
and if it was 3K this thread probably wouldnt even be here....


As you do, I really love the sterns i have as well...but just like
everything else with them, they have there issues too....

MY HUO Sopranos has flipper wear, its minimal but its there....and
routed ones have nothing around them...POOR POOR artwork..zero
durability.......

But that title has plus's in other areas.....with TF's it is tough to
accept (give and take) for that kind of money....i do get your point..

it is disheartening to think you COULD be opening up junk.......

I dont know if you have played anybodys TF's LE yet, but maybe you
should, see what you think...look one over really well.. that is set
up and has some time on it...then decide.....

If you dont like it.....selling your NIB shouldnt be a problem.....

JJP is the only one at the moment that is gonna give you that NIB
Capcom feel again i'm afraid.... but time will tell

[Tracelifter]

LEE;1854607 Wrote:
> I still can't get over the fact that Sears now sells washer machines. I
> use washers all the time and always have to search out and buy
> individual sizes.
> Now I can get a washer machine from Sears and make my own.
>
> Yee Haa!!!
>
>
> LEE

Washers are 7-10 cents apiece, cheaper to drill a hole in a penny or a
nickel.

Eric


--
Tracelifter

[Gerry]

> > This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com-Hide quoted text -

> Capcom feel again i'm afraid....  but time will tell- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

And by the way, that was wrinkled SCROTUM....LOL

[mr tobias]

For the record, the Recognizer and lamps are NOT synchronized on my
machine running 1.4, though the Recognizer does now follow the lit
lamp to some degree. It's of little detriment from a gameplay
perspective, but it does demonstrate that Stern appears to release a
description of these features before they have been fully implemented
or tested.

Operators would barely raise an eyebrow to any of this, but with Stern
apparently drifting towards a collector/retail targeted market, issues
like those discussed in this thread assume greater significance.

[seymour.shabow]

Your Mods R Ugly wrote:
> New TZs did not have airball issues with that standup. Only after many plays did the standup get bent back.

True.

> They did have the nasty lock shot reject SDTM problem.

Not all of them did this, either. Pretty large variation on build
quality, really. The difference between 1993 and 2012 is there was no
mass meeting place for people to bitch about these things.
(yes, I know RGP existed then but it was a lot different)

[Chad H]

mr tobias;1856203 Wrote:

> On Jan 5, 5:49*pm, Chad H <daoc5... (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
> > BC_Gambit;1855524 Wrote:
> >
> > > Does your recognizer hover only over the corresponding lit target on
> the

> > > 3 *bank? *If so, congrats. *As far as I am aware, that was the
> intent
> > > but they could not execute on this idea. *I do not have a Tron LE

> with
> > > which to compare, but I remember this being discussed to death last
> > > summer.
> >
> > > Regardless, I would still enjoy Tron (either version) based upon my

> > > limited play of this title to date. *However, issues like this do

> not
> > > make me step back and say "golly gee, how are they going to top
> this
> > > amazing and flawless execution of their vision, how could their QC
> and
> > > implementation get any better?".
> >

> > Ummm... yes. *The moving recognizer on TRON LE does hover over and is
> > synchronized with the corresponding lit target. *They fixed that in a

> > code update long ago.
> >
> > V1.3 - July 28, 2011
> > =======================
> > - Recognizer now moves with the lamps.
> >
> > --
> > Chad H

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> For the record, the Recognizer and lamps are NOT synchronized on my
> machine running 1.4, though the Recognizer does now follow the lit
> lamp to some degree. It's of little detriment from a gameplay
> perspective, but it does demonstrate that Stern appears to release a
> description of these features before they have been fully implemented
> or tested.
>
> Operators would barely raise an eyebrow to any of this, but with Stern
> apparently drifting towards a collector/retail targeted market, issues
> like those discussed in this thread assume greater significance.

Is something wrong with your swing arm? Maybe check the spring in back.
Should follow nicely. There are times when the lights don't match
right at the beginning of the movement but after they sync up, all
should be well.

[shlockdoc]

Thanks Gerry, some people take offense and see the need to defend Stern,
when they knowingly sent a defective game. There is no need for others
to hijack my thread with insults and name calling from members that just
joined or have ties to Stern. Make my pin whole and a CQ pin not another
bad story.

I am the OP and please ask that everyone refrain from name calling and
OT discussion. I just want my TF to be right or take it back. Please
don't turn this in Avatar and fighting to prove how good the pin is to
retain the value. We see how well that went.

[RotaryRex]

As chad has said above it should sync mine syncs perfectly there are
times where initially it's slightly out of sync when it first starts
up but within a sweep or two it syncs up.

[Lloyd Olson]

I think JJP will be giving you a NIB Williams feel, rather than a NIB Capcom
feel. LTG :)
( Which is a great thing )

"Gerry" <hotkl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dd8553aa-6576-4a76...@k5g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

[RotaryRex]

"where will you be playing pinball this week?" looks like the weekly
pointless Facebook post is right on shedule but no information on the
TF powerpack or the supposed acdc info. I can see exactly where the
OP is coming from and I think no matter how much you love or try to
love stern you have to agree with everything he's said, I know i was
very apprehensive about what I would find while opening my Tron LE and
I'm very relieved I passed on TF not only because the game came no
where near my expectations or delivered anywhere near it's potential
but the QC issues.

[shlockdoc]

Lloyd Olson;1856398 Wrote:
> I think JJP will be giving you a NIB Williams feel, rather than a NIB
> Capcom
> feel. LTG :)
> ( Which is a great thing )
>

> "Gerry" <hotklock40 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
> news:dd8553aa-6576-4a76-8b17-eda760a3f875 (AT) k5g2000vba.googlegroups
> (DOT) com...

> >
> > JJP is the only one at the moment that is gonna give you that NIB
> > Capcom feel again i'm afraid.... but time will tell

I am looking forward to it. :-)

[Rompen]

On Jan 5, 9:44 am, Joe S <joepa1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The primary problem is a drop target that
> causes airballs, that Stern has acknowledged they are working on a fix
> for.

You guys need to cut Stern some slack. "Drop Targets" are a fairly
new, innovative technology that obviously much more research needs to
be put into. Who knew this was going to happen? Stop hatin' on
Stern!

[shlockdoc]

treborlicec;1855553 Wrote:
> Not that I'm one to argue, but the OP hasn't even opened his TFLE yet.
> He is upset with the general issues, not specifically his game.

I paid my coin for the pin. It has a glaring and obvious defect in the
drop target and never should have shipped this way. I am happy to stop
airing my concerns with the group dedicated to this as soon as you come
buy the pin from me. I have many friends that have unboxed their TF and
the quality is crap. Why open it and lose the value. I am afraid to
sneeze by the decals they might rip.

Good luck with AC/DC everyone, Steve R might design it , buy Gary Stern
is building it.

I should not have to call Stern when EVERY LE has this issue. You call
me.


--
shlockdoc

[Rare Hero]

On Jan 6, 1:19 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> I paid my coin for the pin. It has a glaring and obvious defect in the
> drop target and never should have shipped this way.  I am happy to stop
> airing my concerns with the group dedicated to this as soon as you come
> buy the pin from me. I have many friends that have unboxed their TF and
> the quality is crap.  Why open it and lose the value. I am afraid to
> sneeze by the decals they might rip.

Dude, come on. I opened mine - it had a few things I needed to
fix...and yes, that was annoying...but, I fixed them, and now it's
awesome. Playfield looks great, decals look great and have not
wrinkled...but I install legs w/ Pincushion felt protectors. What was
wrong w/ your friends' games? Yeah, the drop target flings the
ball. Fix is coming soon...if you can't handle the flings, disable
the target until then. Did you buy the game to flip or did you buy it
to play? Value, value, value...don't ever buy NIB games if you're
worried about "value" ...a game's rise in price or hold in value has
to be organic and it's not a given.

Greg

[Keith P. Johnson]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:20:07 -0800 (PST), Rompen <romp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>You guys need to cut Stern some slack. "Drop Targets" are a fairly
>new, innovative technology that obviously much more research needs to
>be put into. Who knew this was going to happen? Stop hatin' on
>Stern!

I haven't seen a TFLE in person yet, but what's being described sounds
exactly like what was going on on Sopranos with the boat target.

keith
--
Further fora you can reach me:
twitter: @pinballkeefer
EFNet: #pinball (keefer)
Google+: https://plus.google.com/115726305093739202394

[shlockdoc]

Rare Hero;1856584 Wrote:

> On Jan 6, 1:19*pm, shlockdoc <mkl... (AT) nj.rr (DOT) com> wrote:
> > I paid my coin for the pin. It has a glaring and obvious defect in
> the

> > drop target and never should have shipped this way. *I am happy to

> stop
> > airing my concerns with the group dedicated to this as soon as you
> come
> > buy the pin from me. I have many friends that have unboxed their TF
> and

> > the quality is crap. *Why open it and lose the value. I am afraid to

> > sneeze by the decals they might rip.
>
> Dude, come on. I opened mine - it had a few things I needed to
> fix...and yes, that was annoying...but, I fixed them, and now it's
> awesome. Playfield looks great, decals look great and have not
> wrinkled...but I install legs w/ Pincushion felt protectors. What was
> wrong w/ your friends' games? Yeah, the drop target flings the
> ball. Fix is coming soon...if you can't handle the flings, disable
> the target until then. Did you buy the game to flip or did you buy it
> to play? Value, value, value...don't ever buy NIB games if you're
> worried about "value" ...a game's rise in price or hold in value has
> to be organic and it's not a given.
>
> Greg

I bought the game to add to the herd. If i choose not to keep it, an NIB
has more appeal than open in some cases.

Again, I am glad you are enjoying and am not looking to have an argument
with any of the groups members.

Stern knew this was a problem and said ship it anyway. I used to have a
great deal of respect for George Gomez.

The paid pumpers here on the group were singing how this is the best
game ever. Where are they? If the game is so great where is George Gomez
to defend his awesome design?

Everyone seems patient enough to wait on WoZ, really they could not fix
this issue and all the trash mini playfield problems? They rushed it at
your expense. Please do not tell me to chill and expect this from a
manufacturer. That is crazy talk. Go back to 4500 for an LE and i can
cut rope.

I am not a sheep and I don't need to be led to the promised land. Sell a
working pin. I have a ton of Sterns and feel i was duped by their
marketing, their paid pumpers this group and their shady buy it now
before they are gone shtick.

Greg, If the game is so good ask the person selling #36 Decpticon why he
keeps lowering the price.

Stern remains quiet through this. No update on their site. No we are
working on it.

Hey Greg " where are you playing pinball this weekend?"

[Rare Hero]

On Jan 6, 8:17 am, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> Please don't turn this in Avatar and fighting to prove how good the pin is to
> retain the value. We see how well that went.

Really? People only said they liked Avatar to keep it's value up?
If you like a game, you're not going to sell it...so who gives a shit
what the "value" is? Is it unimaginable that I say I like Avatar
because I just like playing the game? 2000 plays on my machine...I
didn't do that to prove anything...I did that because it's fun.

....and, the game's only been out for about a year. Anyone trying to
flip a game for profit that soon deserves to be burnt. Don't buy NIB
games to flip.

Greg

[Max Badazz]

> what the "value" is?  Is it unimaginable that I say I like Avatar
> because I just like playing the game?  2000 plays on my machine...I
> didn't do that to prove anything...I did that because it's fun.

Wow, and I thought I was playing Avatar a lot (my audit spreadsheet
shows I have 508 plays on mine).

Chris (in NH)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/maxbadazz

[Gerry]

On Jan 6, 12:44 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> I think JJP will be giving you a NIB Williams feel, rather than a NIB Capcom
> feel.  LTG :)
> ( Which is a great thing )
>

> "Gerry" <hotkloc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>
> news:dd8553aa-6576-4a76...@k5g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > JJP is the only one at the moment that is gonna give you that NIB

> > Capcom feel again i'm afraid....  but time will tell- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Lloyd, your not diggin on the Capcoms?

[Lloyd Olson]

Yes I like Capcoms.

Way better than DE or Gottlieb in 1996, darn close to Williams, but not
better.

LTG :)

"Gerry" <hotkl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:75d5f4e7-8a52-4e52...@k5g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

[Rare Hero]

On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> Again, I am glad you are enjoying and am not looking to have an argument
> with any of the groups members.

I just hate to see you stressed out. I say open it and enjoy it...or
return it and be done with it.

> Stern knew this was a problem and said ship it anyway. I used to have a
> great deal of respect for George Gomez.

It sucks, but we can't change the past...they're fixing it, and it's
otherwise a great game.

> The paid pumpers here on the group were singing how this is the best
> game ever. Where are they? If the game is so great where is George Gomez
> to defend his awesome design?

I don't think George has ever posted to RGP. Who are "paid
pumpers"? The only person who was excited and then dropped off the
map was Derek...and...well, Derek is Derek..lol. He didn't like the
"flow" of the LE and wanted the Pro instead. *shrug*

> Everyone seems patient enough to wait on WoZ, really they could not fix
> this issue and all the trash mini playfield problems? They rushed it at
> your expense. Please do not tell me to chill and expect this from a
> manufacturer. That is crazy talk. Go back to 4500 for an LE and i can
> cut rope.

Return it.

> I am not a sheep and I don't need to be led to the promised land. Sell a
> working pin. I have a ton of Sterns and feel i was duped by their
> marketing, their paid pumpers this group and their shady buy it now
> before they are gone shtick.

I really wanna know who these "paid pumpers" are. I wanna get paid!
LOL

> Greg, If the game is so good ask the person selling #36 Decpticon why he
> keeps lowering the price.

Did you see his "Box Opening" video on youtube? It's the most gaddamn
depressing thing I've ever seen. That guy CLEARLY doesn't get excited
by pinball anymore. Jaded beyond repair. As for why people aren't
buying it....why should it be expected to be purchased instantly?
It's expensive, and the Combo LEs (a better value and aesthetic) are
still available. You can't flip something that's been available for a
month! There's an Autobot LE on Craigslist locally for $7500...I
guarantee that's gonna be reposted for quite some time. I've sold a
ton of games. Games with "history" that people want. Sometimes it
takes a day, sometimes it takes a month. All depends on who's looking
at the ad, who wants it when, who's got cash to spend...

> Stern remains quiet through this. No update on their site. No we are
> working on it.

Agreed, an official statement or press release would be nice.

> Hey Greg " where are you playing pinball this weekend?"

My house. Transformers. Come on by. :)

Seriously though - I know we're all coming from different places,
different times in our lives...I had a really shitty 2011, and I'm in
a "life is short" mindset...so, I can either be angry about a drop
target issue even though it will be fixed soon....or I can enjoy my
game. I'm enjoying my game. Seems like you're not going to be able
to do so....so, just return it and move on.

Greg

[Gerry]

Greg, I think Mark knows it will eventually be fixed, i dont think
thats his issue here... He is pissed about it even shipping that way
for the money...These issues should have been resloved before the game
came to market...

they at stern had to have test played this..( a shit ton)..they had to
know...just like ball traps....they had to know...

thats why he is pissed....Schlock.(Mark) ..isnt afraid of the value
thing, as much as. it possibly being of such poor quality, that the
game will show abnormal wear, or be riddled with issues, when for
7K..it should be built of quality stuff and made to be durable and
built to last.....and delivered without a laundry list of problems..

I feel after a guy reads a BUNCH of negatives about a game that he
just paid huge coin for.. he should be a bit concerned..

Marks games are all CQ and i dont think he is really looking to add a
terd to the line up...

not saying TF's is deemed as terd...but i am seeing that Mark wants
and expects better...

[Gerry]

On Jan 6, 4:44 pm, Keith P. Johnson <pin-wiz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:20:07 -0800 (PST), Rompen <rompe...@gmail.com>

+ 1 on the Sopranos...I get wicked airballs on that thing as
well....but they dont get stuck anywhere, so it really isnt an issue
for me...

but yep ...it is the same exact problem....

[cody chunn]

I would say Capcom was = or > Wms. Or are we talking out-of-box quality.
I've kinda gotten lost in this thread...

-cody


"Lloyd Olson" wrote in message
news:H-OdnYuAOLA645rS...@skypoint.com...

[Gerry]

On Jan 3, 4:18 pm, shlockdoc <mkl...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:50 pm, "Castor E." <castor.endofl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I also heard back in the day, things were not much different opening a
> > NIB B/W pin.  I heard operators were dealing with issues right out of
> > the box back then too.
>
> The LE's are intended for home use. I am ok with tweaking but at the
> new price points the out of the box issues are not acceptable. I guess
> i have too high an expectation for a quality product. This is one case
> where offshore production might help and decrease price to match
> quality. I guess time will tell if the quality is there to sustain an
> industry or we see Stern fall like so many great American products
> into obscurity.

Just so i know, cause i dont...How much are TF's LE's .......and how
much more is the combo TF's LE....

I'm spoutin off 6K-7K and i dont even know the accurate price

and Schlock..which edition did you get ?