RBION: what are you guys scoring on it?
Pinlicious
factory settings
3 ball game
extras on
outlanes in the middle
tilt pretty liberal
3 warnings
just curious.
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Mike Schudel
Just played one yesterday at a distributor located less than a mile from
work. They just pulled it out of the box, put the legs on and set it on
free play. Should have waited for them to set the pitch and leveled it...oh
well.
I'm not gonna say what my best score was, but after only three games, it
seems fairly decent. It's still a Stern though.
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/dcu4
MB Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------
Pinlicious
>From: "Mike Schudel" schu...@yahoo.com
>Date: 4/23/04 8:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <108i23o...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>> got a couple of legits over 200M
>>
>> factory settings
>> 3 ball game
>> extras on
>> outlanes in the middle
>> tilt pretty liberal
>> 3 warnings
>>
>> just curious.
>>
>> pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
>
>Just played one yesterday at a distributor located less than a mile from
>work. They just pulled it out of the box, put the legs on and set it on
>free play. Should have waited for them to set the pitch and leveled it...oh
>well.
>
>I'm not gonna say what my best score was, but after only three games, it
>seems fairly decent. It's still a Stern though.
still a stern? that could mean many things. good and bad. which did you mean?
tspp meaning good. mono and rct meaning bad.
well, from a -reliability- standpoint, i would say it is better than t-3 was
and certainly better than lotr by a mile. the upper right flipper DEFINATELY
needs a stronger coil.
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
>
Wolffy
-wolffy
Mike Schudel
mean?
> tspp meaning good. mono and rct meaning bad.
It *feels* like a Stern. From the K-mart lighting in the backbox to the
clunky-clacky feel of the game. I know I need to get into the rules a bit
more, but I always get hung-up on the feel of the game...it's part of the
overall experience.
I do plan on hitting BW3's to throw in a few quarters and give it a better
whirl this week.
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/dcu4
Pinlicious
>Message-id: <108ijg7...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>> still a stern? that could mean many things. good and bad. which did you
>mean?
>> tspp meaning good. mono and rct meaning bad.
>
>It *feels* like a Stern. From the K-mart lighting in the backbox
yeah, i just don't like the FEEL of that florecent lignting on my face ;-)
to the
>clunky-clacky feel of the game.
yeah, that vari-target isn't helping...
I know I need to get into the rules a bit
>more, but I always get hung-up on the feel of the game...it's part of the
>overall experience.
well, the rules aren't that great, so i guess you can put another check in your
negative column ;-)
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
>
Wolffy
Pinlicious wrote:
> the upper right flipper DEFINATELY
> needs a stronger coil.
THANK YOU! Some buds here were arguing with me that it just needs
service. That flipper is just too damn weak! Com'on a sweet loop shot
with two spinners on it, yeah I want to hit that shot fast and furious.
The game here one is lucky if the ball dribbles into the left most
rollover lane.
-wolffy
Wolffy
Pinlicious wrote:
> well, the rules aren't that great, so i guess you can put another check in your
> negative column ;-)
>
Are the rules great? No. But for a Lawlor game they are a giant step
toward improvement. :)
-wolffy
Manic
lazy loops it creates you can keep them going for a good long
time ;-) At that slow speed though it's hardly and exciting moment...
no Shadow loop or NF jump here :-(
Yawn
"Wolffy" <sendnospa...@gaspar.net> wrote in message news:daSdnT4c2oZ...@speakeasy.net...
metallik
> negative column ;-)
But.. but, Aron agve it two thumbs up, and we know he's never wrong
*cough*afm*cough* ;)
(actually might have only been a thumb and a half, but he seemed to like
the rules pretty well)
metallik
> service. That flipper is just too damn weak! Com'on a sweet loop shot
> with two spinners on it, yeah I want to hit that shot fast and furious.
> The game here one is lucky if the ball dribbles into the left most
> rollover lane.
>
> -wolffy
Earthshaker's upper loop rocks.. as did Whirlwind's. Hope this one
isn't as lousy as RCTs. :(
Wolffy
metallik wrote:
> (actually might have only been a thumb and a half, but he seemed to like
> the rules pretty well)
There are a lot of rules I do like, but there are three modes that seem
to identical to each other. It gives the appearance there was a little
bit of creativeness not applied to some of the continents. The "hit the
shrunken head mode" six times just flat out sucks!
I also remember Aron speaking highly of the multiball rules, those have
not yet disappointed me.
-wolffy
Wolffy
Manic wrote:
> The coil is weak NIB. Apparently it's intentional. With the slow
If it is then it's time to scream at the project manager. I'm sure
those who have bought NIB would step up that coil. You don't need to
step it up much, just more than what the factory put on there. I mean,
on a clean game that has seen very few plays the flipper can't send the
ball around the loop. Can you picture how much this shot is going to
suck when the game enters the "blown out" state? I'm continually
baffled that while Stern isn't selling to us, they sell to the people
who sell it to the people that provide so we can play it. Since the
pinball playing public on location also posts here, it's amazing as to
why Stern refuses to listen to their end customers. If we're happy, we
put money in the slots which makes the ops happy which keeps stern in
business. Okay now I'm starting to rant!
-wolffy
pat lawlor
The coil is EXACTLY what I chose for the game.
Coil strengths are chosen for games based on many factors. To understand
what some of those factors are consider the following:
1. The dynamics of flippers/coil strength directly affect the ability of
that coil to make shots across the available shot field. Let me give you an
anology. Think of stronger and stronger coils being more and more like a
pull hitter in baseball. As a coil becomes stronger its ability to make
outside shots becomes less and less. This is why weaker coils can actually
give a player more controll over where he wants to shoot. In the case of
RBION that means that a stronger coil will (A) Make the super jackpot shot
almost impossible because it will always be pulling the ball into the
vari-target posts, and (b) lessen the possibilty of all but the best
players making the side shots at all because beginners want to make the
shot too early.
2. While super powerfull coils might make "you" feel great. At short
distances from playfield components they tear the hell out of the game for
the Op's in our audience.
3. Getting the ball on RBION back to the 3 inlanes was the goal. Looping,
while nice for very good players, is all but impossible for average folks
in bars.
4. We listen to our end customers... 99% of which are NOT the people who
rant on this message board that there "isn't enough for me to do" or " why
don't my action figures match the flyer". Our cash box comes from average
players in a bar just looking to have 3 or 4 minutes of fun after a hard
days work. We listen to our real customers so well in fact that Stern saved
pinball from total oblivion. Most people have no idea how close the
industry came to having no new pinball 3 years ago. The people who are left
in this business are, "surprise!" in it because we like it. We stayed
because the game of pinball is important to us, for it to survive and
prosper. So you have something to play.
I suggest you enjoy the fact that these games exist at all. If not looping
isn't to your taste, okay. But maybe there are reasons that you don't
understand why things are like they are without attacking the integrity of
Stern and it employees.
Pat Lawlor
PLD
KME
> needs a stronger coil.
>
> pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Thats the first thing I changed when we got ours. Put a regular coil
flipper coil on there now its lighting fast without collapsing. ANyone
who has played the RBION here in san diego will be in for a suprise
when they play a regular one since I did some heavy flipper hacks to
make them feel more like real flippers.
Manic
in his machine - and having to spend your own time
and money to modify it... Pat L is rude about it...??
Amazing. Apparently dead silence or accolades is all
they can/will tolerate :-(
"KME" <daveyc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:107c6b7b.04042...@posting.google.com...
Boyd Bottorff
> And yet instead of thanking you for your interest (and $$$)
> in his machine - and having to spend your own time
> and money to modify it... Pat L is rude about it...??
>
> Amazing. Apparently dead silence or accolades is all
> they can/will tolerate :-(
He wasn't really rude. He was explaining (or defending, as you will)
the position Stern took on putting in the weaker coil.
As an operator, I can definitely agree with not overpowering-- and
eventually damaging-- the location games. The RCT I'm running has
needed ONE switch assembly repaired in eight or more months. Plus
lamps, of course. Compared to what had to do to WMS games in the past,
I'll take it.
A.C.
Pat, I'd just like to comment that I'd agree with others here in saying
that the upper flipper designs on your previous games have all been more
than adequate for making the main shots in the game. The only thing
that has ever prevented me from making the upper ramp shot on Whirl*Wind
has been my own skill (or lack thereof :). I'll definitely have to
track down a RBION and see how it plays based on your comments.
Thank you for making some of the best games in the history of pinball.
Take care,
A.C.
******
Whirl*Wind, High*Speed, Orbitor*1 (Twilight*Zone is coming next! :)
(E-Mail is munged, remove the obvious to E-Mail)
metallik
Manic wrote:
> And yet instead of thanking you for your interest (and $$$)
> in his machine - and having to spend your own time
> and money to modify it... Pat L is rude about it...??
>
> Amazing. Apparently dead silence or accolades is all
> they can/will tolerate :-(
Naw, I think he's just irritated because people claimed they don't care
about their customers.. wolffy said to scream at the project manager,
well, the project manager screamed back :)
I think Pat can deal just fine with folks not liking some aspects of his
games. Just takes offense when people claim he doesn't care what people
think about 'em. FWIW I also think the upper loop in RCT is lousy
compared to older games (haven't played RBION yet), but I can also see
where Pat's coming from.. casual players can barely hit the ball as it
arrives at the lower flippers... fast upper loops would zip right by
them and SDTM (providing they even notice the upper flipper exists). If
you buy the game for yourself, just do what KME did and swap coils.
Todd Lainhart
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YIhic.56911$L31....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> And yet instead of thanking you for your interest (and $$$)
> in his machine - and having to spend your own time
> and money to modify it... Pat L is rude about it...??
I don't see a disconnect here. The majority of folks on this board (that
post, at least) modify their pins. From protectors to Neon strips, to extra
play figures, etc. Some upgrade their coils - some downgrade their coils.
There's an aftermarket for this stuff, just as there is in cars, cycles,
etc.
PLD was responding about how and why the coil was chosen, driven by the
design in response to the market.
I talked with an op a week or so back. He was in the process of dumping his
WMS pins and replacing them with Sterns because the latters were earning,
the formers weren't and besides, he couldn't get parts for the former (his
words, not mine). He had an order for 5 RBIONs and more TSPP and LOTR. He
said the earnings (such as they are) were not comparable.
It's about the market, not the after-market.
> Amazing. Apparently dead silence or accolades is all
> they can/will tolerate :-(
Based on what do you draw this conclusion?
-- Todd
Bigd849498
what happens very neat. Maybe once you see this you will like the mode better.
derek
Bill Fugle
news:4089b551$0$73094$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net:
Agreed. I think he just gets tired of the complaints. It's good to get
his perspective on what they were trying to achieve. I believe that when
designing a game, a few different coils would be tried, and they settle
on the one that best achieves all the shots available. Gary Stern has
said in the past that they need to rebuild the player base to have a
future. They can't build games that just appeal to the wizards; they
have to be easy enough for new players to have some fun - not
frustration. My local operator said that "in the good times" locations
would demand that they get them the latest pin, he can't remember the
last time that happened now. Let's hope this run of fun pins they're
putting out brings back the good times. Thanks for posting PL, you
should do it more often!
Bill.
Bigd849498
Derek
Bigd849498
my RBION and when I had RCT and he always responds.
Derek
Manic
pops up here in the ng is to "admonish" us. Last time he wrote
something it was to warn us not to assume T3 flipper's
were the same as other Stern's. Same kinda tone.
It's no big deal but that "tone" is there again -
were you one of the LOTR owner's that
"complained about their action figures" ?... hehe
I like that one.
Veeddy snippy indeed ;-)
"Bigd849498" <bigd8...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20040423211231...@mb-m14.news.cs.com...
Manic
"Boyd Bottorff" <bbot...@nomail.com> wrote in message news:1gcppef.a5thtx1pty03mN%bbot...@nomail.com...
> Manic <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And yet instead of thanking you for your interest (and $$$)
> > in his machine - and having to spend your own time
> > and money to modify it... Pat L is rude about it...??
> >
> > Amazing. Apparently dead silence or accolades is all
> > they can/will tolerate :-(
>
> He wasn't really rude. He was explaining (or defending, as you will)
> the position Stern took on putting in the weaker coil.
>
Maybe not *that* rude ;-) I guess that wasn't real money Wolffy was pumping
into his machine as he made a point of saying they only listen to
"real" customers... not people like us ;-)
Claimed Wolffy was "attacking the integrity" of Stern people...?? If he
and his crew are THAT thin-skinned then they really should stick to
the usual lurking. Sinse he reads all the posts here he knows Wolffy
is a enthusiastic pin fan.
And then he berates rgp'ers as being the types that say "why
don't my action figures match the flyer"...?? I *think* that's a catty remark.
Yeah I don't think any of his Stern titles have ever attracted that kind
of interest - I think he's safe there ;-) (and that's *my* catty response :)
Anyways those remarks seemed a trifle rude and condescending ...
but maybe that's just me.
It IS understandable as probably none of these guys can
enjoy seeing less than positive remarks about their work - that's simply
human nature. He was obviously a little hot about people's comments.
> As an operator, I can definitely agree with not overpowering-- and
> eventually damaging-- the location games.
Yeah that loop on FH really caused a lot of damage. C'mon ;-)
His "other" explanation made sense... that it was really
just meant to get it back to the rollovers. *That* it manages to do.
The RCT I'm running has
> needed ONE switch assembly repaired in eight or more months. Plus
> lamps, of course. Compared to what had to do to WMS games in the past,
> I'll take it.
The RCT's around here were yanked in a month because of low earnings
so I don't know about their longevity.
Anyways the explanation about it simply getting the ball back up to the rollovers
was all he needed to say - I'll let you guys ignore all the other remarks ;-)
And he has every right to post any way he wants... I kinda enjoy the
snippy remarks. Adds drama. It's hardly a BIG DEAL but something I just
commented on ;-) YMMV
MacMan
I understand his tone. In my job I am constantly second guessed by
Directors who think because they are a Director they know better then
someone who isn't and consequently 80% of my job is constantly fixing
problems caused by Directors who asked me how to do something and then
went off and did something else. Why bother asking me??? What do you pay
me for?????
I think we need to agree that Pat knows how to design a pinball machine,
probably more than the person so started the post and got the response
(but I'm willing to be proved wrong).
That's Pat's design. If someone else wants something different then they
could design their own and sell it to Stern. But I just don't see anyone
here doing that... Well Maybe Mr Pinball.
And I liked to comment about the action figures too!
Cheers
MacMan
In article <5Vjic.36270$G_.1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
KME
> pull hitter in baseball. As a coil becomes stronger its ability to make
> outside shots becomes less and less. This is why weaker coils can actually
> give a player more controll over where he wants to shoot.
I think the problem is and the reason I beefed up ours is with a lack
of EOS switch on that top coil which causes the flipper to just fall
back closed when the ball hits it with any kind of momentum. It wasn't
because the of the loop shot. Throw an EOS switch on there and have
the software re-pulse it if the switch opens up again. But I wont
pretend I know anything about patents so maybe thats not possible.
mikev43
> This is the project manager.
Wow the myth the man himself. He pretty much summed up the reasons
for the coil strenght and from a person who knows dynamics and physics
in a pinball design kind of way. All the people screaming about it
might want to tone it down a bit. The truth is the "hardcore" aren't
enough to keep what's left of the industry going and it's quite
obvious stern and pat know this. People are of course allowed their
opinions and what not but it's that way for a technical reason that
some people are probably over looking.
Just try to have some fun. That's what pinball is all about!
Fred Kemper
makes it this far South some day, so that I
can put some money in it! ;)
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"pat lawlor" <thega...@patlawlordesign.com> wrote in message news:40899D61...@patlawlordesign.com...
Fred Kemper
Agree 100%!
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"MacMan" <mac...@pacific.net.au> wrote in message news:macman-419A0D....@nasal.pacific.net.au...
Manic
"Fred Kemper" <pbga...@davlin.net> wrote in message news:c6cub...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Fred Kemper
;)
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Vunic.30979$Aq.1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Ron Strom
--
Ron - CARGPB007 - ron...@hothouse.net
Change the hot to ice to email
In article <Vunic.30979$Aq.1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
manicmusic...@hotmail.com says...
> C'mon Fred - who would ever second-guess you? ;-)
>
> =20
> "Fred Kemper" <pbga...@davlin.net> wrote in message =
> news:c6cub...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> > I think I've found yet another brother. ;)
> >=20
> > Agree 100%!
> >=20
> > --
> > Fred
> > TX
> > CARGPB#8
> > ******************
> >=20
> >=20
> > "MacMan" <mac...@pacific.net.au> wrote in message =
> news:macman-419A0D....@nasal.pacific.net.au...
> > > Manic,
> > >
> > > I understand his tone. In my job I am constantly second guessed by
> > > Directors who think because they are a Director they know better =
> then
> > > someone who isn't and consequently 80% of my job is constantly =
> fixing
> > > problems caused by Directors who asked me how to do something and =
> then
> > > went off and did something else. Why bother asking me??? What do you =
> pay
> > > me for?????
> > >
> > > I think we need to agree that Pat knows how to design a pinball =
> machine,
> > > probably more than the person so started the post and got the =
> response
> > > (but I'm willing to be proved wrong).
> > >
> > > That's Pat's design. If someone else wants something different then =
> they
> > > could design their own and sell it to Stern. But I just don't see =
> anyone
> > > here doing that... Well Maybe Mr Pinball.
> > >
> > > And I liked to comment about the action figures too!
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > MacMan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In article <5Vjic.36270$G_.1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
> > > "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Derek I'm sure he is but the only time he
> > > > pops up here in the ng is to "admonish" us. Last time he wrote
> > >
> >=20
> >=20
>
>
Fred Kemper
;)
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Ron Strom" <see_m...@nospam.net> wrote
Manic
"Ron Strom" <see_m...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:MPG.1af453cff...@wa.news.verio.net...
> Well, I have a couple bite marks on my tongue... how many you got? ;-)
> --
> Ron - CARGPB007 - ron...@hothouse.net
> Change the hot to ice to email
LOL
Mr Pinball Australia
to comply too IE WMS patents.
Hope he continues to produce great games like he has.
We have viewed his designs in great detail lately and they are some of
the best in the industry..
regards
Wayne
pat lawlor <thega...@patlawlordesign.com> wrote in message news:<40899D61...@patlawlordesign.com>...
Wolffy
you're not going to put flipper coils for the lower flippers on an upper
flipper. But you don't want a coil that turns that flipper into a wet
noodle either, which unfourtantely appears to be by design.
-wolffy
Bigd849498
Derek
Wolffy
pat lawlor wrote:
> This is the project manager.
Cool, so I'm "yelling" to the right person. :)
> The coil is EXACTLY what I chose for the game.
I make a number of design decisions over the duration of a project for
my employer. All these decisions go before a peer review. There are
some decision I *INTENTIONALLY CHOOSE* that other engineers hate, and
after consideration of their opinion I determine how it can be improved.
I can publically admit I do not make the best decision 100% of the
time. That's why are company has no less than 3 QA session with our
products before release. At the same time I can say to QA what is
designer's intent and back it up with something.
> 1. The dynamics of flippers/coil strength directly affect the ability of
> that coil to make shots across the available shot field. Let me give you an
> anology. Think of stronger and stronger coils being more and more like a
> pull hitter in baseball. As a coil becomes stronger its ability to make
Let me paint a picture in terms that might be easier to understand why I
see this as a bad decision: You have 2 upper flippers on Twilight Zone.
Each flipper has a different strength coils. How bad would the shot
to the hitch-hiker be if you put the coil on the UL flipper on the UR
flipper? That could suck. This is what I am experiencing here with
Ripley's.
> outside shots becomes less and less. This is why weaker coils can actually
> give a player more controll over where he wants to shoot. In the case of
During Asia mode, where the rules say I want to complete 25 spinner
spins, I, as a player, want to send the ball through one of those shots
with some umph so the spinner can get some serious spins on it. A wet
noodle for a flipper can't do that, it can't make me feel good about a
shot, and it can't make me feel good about mode goal. Because there are
some rules where these shots are important, it seems like you want these
shots hit more frequently than your post implies. If you didn't the
rules would reflect how the "Designer's intent" was for those shots.
> RBION that means that a stronger coil will (A) Make the super jackpot shot
> almost impossible because it will always be pulling the ball into the
> vari-target posts, and (b) lessen the possibilty of all but the best
> players making the side shots at all because beginners want to make the
> shot too early.
So the solution is to implement a "weak, wet-noodle like" flipper!?! I
know there is no way you would feel a bad flipper is the solution to any
problem. Sure we can discuss calculus, forces and accelration but at
the end of the day, when a mode is running and the clock is ticking, and
the head is counting down the time left does this flipper help make the
game fun? If I miss the shot then I have to learn to play better, if
the flipper can't make the shot then yes I'll be pissed. Pinball is a
skill game after all.
> 2. While super powerfull coils might make "you" feel great. At short
> distances from playfield components they tear the hell out of the game for
> the Op's in our audience.
I didn't ask for a super powerful coil. I asked for a coil one step
higher so this flipper didn't feel like a wet noodle. Plus, I'm not the
only one who appears to be experiencing the "collapsing flipper" effect
when a ball hits it. Whether PLD did this intentional or there is a
mechanical glitch in the mechanism, the result negatively effects game
play. If you don't care that the upper flipper is experiencing issues,
that really says more about you and just how deep your "love" for
pinball goes.
> 3. Getting the ball on RBION back to the 3 inlanes was the goal. Looping,
> while nice for very good players, is all but impossible for average folks
> in bars.
First, that should be the job of those jet bumpers. You have a shot
that feeds those from the Shrunken head, then get the ball in some crazy
bounce speed similiar to that of BK2K, T2 or hell, TZ and get the ball
to roll up and down those lanes. Still not good enough? YOU HAVE A
STOP POST IN THAT ORBIT! Adjust the rules to pop that thing up if
needed. That post works great for the Penguin Jackpost and creates a
fun shot (can average folk hit that?) Come'on remember when jets were
fun, like on FH, where the ball speed up, bounced around, and drained
the ball into a number of different ways?
Second, anyone who likes this game is going to play it over and over
again over a period of time. Will these average players never improve?
Are we under the assumption that everyone who has ever played pinball
is frozen at that skill level?
> 4. We listen to our end customers... 99% of which are NOT the people who
> rant on this message board that there "isn't enough for me to do" or " why
Did you forget you're talking to the person who *likes* Black Rose?
> don't my action figures match the flyer". Our cash box comes from average
Ok, now I just think you're using my post to preach to all of RGP. But
since this is a response to me I will say this: the day you stick action
figures on your playfield is the day I will scream and bitch, I hate
those things being sprinked like crappy mods all over NIB games.
> players in a bar just looking to have 3 or 4 minutes of fun after a hard
> days work. We listen to our real customers so well in fact that Stern saved
So now you're assuming when I'm out and about I don't want to have 3 or
4 minutes of fun? You're talking to the one person who has posted up
here that pinball is a vending machine (google for my thread in support
of Keith Johnson's design decisions, I think it was about LOTR ball savers.)
> pinball from total oblivion. Most people have no idea how close the
> industry came to having no new pinball 3 years ago. The people who are left
> in this business are, "surprise!" in it because we like it. We stayed
> because the game of pinball is important to us, for it to survive and
> prosper. So you have something to play.
...And something to talk about, and something to look forward to.
Again, I don't see where you're taking this conversation. Last time I
checked, I had a constitutional right to say "Ripley's would ROCK with a
few tweaks." And it is discouraging that when one person pictures a
game being sweet... it's met with a post like this. Remember I admitted
I entered a rant in my post and then shut up since rants don't
accomplish much. Sorry, this isn't the "Brave New World", when the game
hits the streets we are going to play and discuss all the good and bad
about it.
> I suggest you enjoy the fact that these games exist at all. If not looping
> isn't to your taste, okay. But maybe there are reasons that you don't
> understand why things are like they are without attacking the integrity of
> Stern and it employees.
The games that got me hooked in this hobby are the ones that bear the
name "Pat Lawlor" as the first credit in the design credit's list. I
was passionate about those games and I will continue to be passionate
about games that bear the Lawlor name. If I then come to a forum where
people come to discuss all things pinball and share a feeling I have
that in my mind make the game better, I don't see how I am in any wrong.
And I didn't attack Stern employees (plural) I ranted about one
decision approved by one person who I feel could have made a better
choice. But I understand how an exchange of ideas work and respect your
logic behind why you disagree with my opinion.
Oh, last summer I told Louis I would by you a drink when the next game
goes on test... that offer is still on the table. While you might be
pissed an irritated with things, I'm not. I'm going to play Ripley's
again because there are a number of parts of this game that are fun.
Yes I think the game is somewhere between "good" to "very good". DEAL
WITH IT!
-wolffy (whose Twilight Zone is going no where!)
Iain Odlin
>I suggest you enjoy the fact that these games exist at all.
"You will sit down, you will shut up and you will *LIKE* it."
Stern has been producing some excellent games lately, but even if all
they were making was more crud along the lines of Striker Extreme and
Austin Powers we're just supposed to meekly accept them *and* be grateful
about it?
Shame on you, Mr Lawlor. Many people here revere you as a God in the
pinball world, and here you sound like nothing better than a petulant
child.
Like it or not, we're going to say what we like *AND WHAT WE DON'T LIKE*
about every pinball machine that has ever been produced. And that includes
Stern's latest. Stern doesn't get a free ride just because they're the
only currently operating pinball manufacturer.
But then, my opinion is irrelevant, isn't it? I am -- after all -- not a
"real customer" by your definition.
-Iain
who plays pins on location and is buying an LOTR. Funny how spending money
on a company's product doesn't make one a customer, isn't it?
RazerX
aint strong enough. That coil is so weak, it takes the fun out of the
shot because the ball barely makes it back to the rollovers. One of
the things I love about playing games that have a flipper on the side
like RBION, is the satisfaction you getting when you nail that shot
right. You had previously done great job with it on games like
Earthshaker, Addams Family and Monopoly to name a few, but I've got to
give a thumbs down on this particular implementation. I'm not saying
it's got to be beefy, but as others have suggested, just a little bit
stronger than what it is, and if it's not meant to be a loop shot,
then put a ball gate there.
Other than that, RBION is a very good effort. Keep up the great work!
X
pat lawlor <thega...@patlawlordesign.com> wrote in message news:<40899D61...@patlawlordesign.com>...
> This is the project manager.
> The coil is EXACTLY what I chose for the game.
> Coil strengths are chosen for games based on many factors. To understand
> what some of those factors are consider the following:
> 1. The dynamics of flippers/coil strength directly affect the ability of
> that coil to make shots across the available shot field. Let me give you an
> anology. Think of stronger and stronger coils being more and more like a
> pull hitter in baseball. As a coil becomes stronger its ability to make
> outside shots becomes less and less. This is why weaker coils can actually
> give a player more controll over where he wants to shoot. In the case of
> RBION that means that a stronger coil will (A) Make the super jackpot shot
> almost impossible because it will always be pulling the ball into the
> vari-target posts, and (b) lessen the possibilty of all but the best
> players making the side shots at all because beginners want to make the
> shot too early.
> 2. While super powerfull coils might make "you" feel great. At short
> distances from playfield components they tear the hell out of the game for
> the Op's in our audience.
> 3. Getting the ball on RBION back to the 3 inlanes was the goal. Looping,
> while nice for very good players, is all but impossible for average folks
> in bars.
> 4. We listen to our end customers... 99% of which are NOT the people who
> rant on this message board that there "isn't enough for me to do" or " why
> don't my action figures match the flyer". Our cash box comes from average
> players in a bar just looking to have 3 or 4 minutes of fun after a hard
> days work. We listen to our real customers so well in fact that Stern saved
> pinball from total oblivion. Most people have no idea how close the
> industry came to having no new pinball 3 years ago. The people who are left
> in this business are, "surprise!" in it because we like it. We stayed
> because the game of pinball is important to us, for it to survive and
> prosper. So you have something to play.
> I suggest you enjoy the fact that these games exist at all. If not looping
> isn't to your taste, okay. But maybe there are reasons that you don't
> understand why things are like they are without attacking the integrity of
> Stern and it employees.
>
Mike Schudel
> the things I love about playing games that have a flipper on the side
> like RBION, is the satisfaction you getting when you nail that shot
> right.
I absolutely *love* the shot into the piano from the UL flipper in TZ.
Whether dropping down from the bridge diverter or coming around the loop,
the power, the precision, the "ka-chunk" the ball makes going into the piano
scoop! That is one shot that gives me goose-bumps when it's *nailed*.
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/dcu4
MB Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------
Wolffy
would be with an even weaker coil. You would flip and the ball would
travel about as far as the right ramp, then it would just kinda roll
someplace else on the playfield. Maybe behind the slot machine, maybe
it would just dribble down to the lower flippers, but it would be the
best shot possible for the average player.
Ripley's corrected that design flaw in TZ in which the flipper could hit
the shot it was designed to hit. The upper right flipper in Ripleys can
hit the ball halfway up the penguin loop, then it will dribble back down
onto the playfield. It has been improved that it won't even hit the
left most rollover lane, which I read somewhere recently was the reason
for the choosen strength.
As it was pointed out in e-mail to me, I was way off to even suggest
that there might be a problem. It appears flippers that can't complete
the shots they are designed for is the wave of the future from Stern.
Pat Lawlor is a well respectable game designer and to come up with a
flipper that can barely nudge a ball is just more pinball playfield
design genius, and I was wrong to call him out on it. I know next time
I go to play Ripley's I will be far more respectful and appreciate that
I am blessed with the opportunity to play with a sad, under powered
flipper. I truely am a weak man for not appreciating the genius of this
design.
-wolffy (greatest shot design ever!)
Todd "Gravitar" Seaver
Did Stern have leftover TSPP playfields to use up or are they cutting
costs further by using the same playfield for every Lawler game? The
flippers are in the same spot, the shot layout is very similar. The
top three bumpers really serve no purpose since they dont feed the top
rollover lanes to help you earn bonus multiplyer's very well. I have
yet to see anyone get more then 2x bonus on a ball and I've had the
pleasure of seeing some very skilled players play the game as well.
Another questionis why are there extra metal posts with a rubber ring
on them above each rollover lane separater when the separaters
themselves have rubber around the posts? Its one of those things that
make me go hrmmm. Specially when trying to keep the cost of a pin as
low as possible.
Can't believe no one mentioned these two issues as of yet. I'm happy
to say that it seems Stern did a way better job with Ripley's in
regard to out of box defects like those on LOTR. So far the only thing
I've noticed defect wise is the closeness of the rubber rings that
protect the plunger gate area being to close to the metal gate so on a
weak plunge the ball would get stuck on it. Can't tilt the ball out
without tiliting the game. have to wait for a ball search to get it
out.
Overall the game is fun to play I have to say. Just a couple issues
away from being a great game.
Gravitar
JC
customer service, doodling, and life (when I search the archives, I
have no idea how Ted Estes posted so often; we're fortunate that Keith
reads/posts as often as he does!). Nice to know he browses the boards
though. *very* nice to know the rationale behind the upper flipper!
(Despite never having personally played a Ripley's yet--must I subject
myself to the touristy area of San Francisco to play one? I can't
imagine that the Ripley's museum over there didn't get one....)
I'm sure that Pat was just venting a bit. I mean, think of the time
and the personal creativity that goes into a pin. And then when the
pin-folk trash it quite a bit...well, one can't help but take it
somewhat personally. Plus there's gotta be some buildup about
Monopoly (which did nothing for me as well as many of you).
I'd say the bitching over the upper flipper is a good sign though. It
means people *want* to play it, and they *want* more from it. And,
fortunately, it's something most everyone can do (swapping in a more
powerful flipper). I've been reading the boards since January and
done a fair share of googling--I don't recall ever seeing a post about
'fixing' a Monopoly. It may be that it simply had nothing to 'fix',
but I think it's more indicative of no one caring. TSPP, LOTR, and
now RBION--seems like a good streak to me and RBION, even without
playing it, looks and sounds vastly superior to Monopoly.
Finally, wrapping this IMHO diatribe up, I agree that Stern gets no
free rides. In fact, because they are the only pin company left,
Stern must be that much more concerned about issuing satisfactory
products. Past issues with flipper power, sound quality,
etc.--improvments are always the goal. If people never complained,
things wouldn't improve.
-JC-
Bill Fugle <bjf...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94D4D619BD5BDbj...@24.24.2.166>...
Wolffy
Todd "Gravitar" Seaver wrote:
> Speaking of Ripley's, why does it have the same shot layout as TSPP?
I didn't get that feeling at all. Ripley's has a nice playfield layout
where TSPP just seems clunky to me.
> top three bumpers really serve no purpose since they dont feed the top
> rollover lanes to help you earn bonus multiplyer's very well. I have
> yet to see anyone get more then 2x bonus on a ball and I've had the
> pleasure of seeing some very skilled players play the game as well.
I've noticed the same thing, 2x the bonus is the highest I've ever
achieved or have seen done.
> Another questionis why are there extra metal posts with a rubber ring
> on them above each rollover lane separater when the separaters
> themselves have rubber around the posts? Its one of those things that
> make me go hrmmm. Specially when trying to keep the cost of a pin as
> low as possible.
The game we have here has bare metal post in front of the plastic posts
with the rubber rings. I don't understand that either, it seems like it
would produce more dead bounces than help anything. But those are easy
enough to remove (hopefully) and see how the game plays without them.
Stern deserves props for sending out a game with white rubber which has
good bounce, now let's have some fun with it.
> Can't believe no one mentioned these two issues as of yet. I'm happy
At some point I was going to, but since on one issue I got a "stern"
lecture from Pat I decided to chill so I could have more fun with the
logic I got back. I made a list of about 8 issues I thought were wrong
with Ripley's. All of them are in playfield layout. Until I get to
participate in the big combo review I don't want to rag to much because
my opinion of Ripley's is favorable.
> Overall the game is fun to play I have to say. Just a couple issues
> away from being a great game.
Which is my main motivation for being vocal about those couple of
issues. This is the closest game I have seen to being the "complete
package" of a pinball machine. There are a few things keeping it from
being over the top, "instant classic" :)
-wolffy
Todd "Gravitar" Seaver
>free rides. In fact, because they are the only pin company left,
>Stern must be that much more concerned about issuing satisfactory
>products. Past issues with flipper power, sound quality,
>etc.--improvments are always the goal. If people never complained,
>things wouldn't improve.
>
>-JC-
>
>Bill Fugle <bjf...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94D4D619BD5BDbj...@24.24.2.166>...
>
>> Agreed. I think he just gets tired of the complaints. It's good to get
>> his perspective on what they were trying to achieve. I believe that when
>> designing a game, a few different coils would be tried, and they settle
>> frustration. My local operator said that "in the good times" locations
>> would demand that they get them the latest pin, he can't remember the
>> last time that happened now. Let's hope this run of fun pins they're
>> putting out brings back the good times. Thanks for posting PL, you
>> should do it more often!
>> Bill.
I totally agree with the two points brought up. Great posts to a great
thread.
Gravitar
Manic
a break here. You ASKED about the flipper and he TOLD
you his rational. You may not agree with it but that was his
decision.
I understand his explanation and even though I didn't like
the "feel" of that flipper I have to accept his explanation.
And now we know it is indeed MEANT to feel that way.
The armchair quarterback in me *does* opt for a stronger coil
and a ball gate for when loops aren't helpful/appropriate
but there must be a reason that got axed...
I still want to know why the action figures in my LOTR
don't match the ones in the flyer! :-P
--
*Because John Shields HATES to see people's collections:*
M.M, C.V, N.G.G, T.O.M, J.Y, N.F, J.D, S.S,
Shad*w, C.F.T.B.L, A.F.M, F.T, W.W
"Wolffy" <sendnospa...@gaspar.net> wrote in message news:-YWdnTptTsu...@speakeasy.net...
Todd Lainhart
>
> Which is my main motivation for being vocal about those couple of
> issues. This is the closest game I have seen to being the "complete
> package" of a pinball machine. There are a few things keeping it from
> being over the top, "instant classic" :)
>
Is it just the flipper coil issue that keeps it from becoming an "instant
classic" (or is it an EOS switch like KME says?), or is it more than that?
Shoot - if it were just the coil, get your own machine and replace the coil
(understanding that that doesn't help with the location machines).
What other machines are the "complete package" or come close to it? Are you
talking all of pindom, or just Stern? If the former, that's pretty high
praise to get worked up over just a coil.
-- Todd
Aron Boag
8f2ae8ce.04042...@posting.google.com, "JC"
<john....@libertymutual.com> wrote:
> I doubt Pat has the time for meaningful posting between his work,
> customer service, doodling, and life (when I search the archives, I
> have no idea how Ted Estes posted so often; we're fortunate that Keith
> reads/posts as often as he does!). Nice to know he browses the boards
> though. *very* nice to know the rationale behind the upper flipper!
> (Despite never having personally played a Ripley's yet--must I subject
> myself to the touristy area of San Francisco to play one? I can't
> imagine that the Ripley's museum over there didn't get one....)
I'm glad to know that it was a deliberate choice. I, too, think that it was
the wrong one to go with, but as I've said before: the flipper is perfectly
functional for what it's designed to do, so, while I'd have preferred a
stronger assembly to give both shots some down-to-earth satisfaction, I can
live with it as-is.
I happen to think Ripley's is on par, quality-wise, with T3, but falls short
of TSPP and LOTR by a fair margin. Still, it's the best Stern Lawlor game
to date, and I happen to like the playfield design quite a bit, even if I
*do* think that that flipper isn't as satisfying as it could be, or should
be.
> I'm sure that Pat was just venting a bit. I mean, think of the time
> and the personal creativity that goes into a pin. And then when the
> pin-folk trash it quite a bit...well, one can't help but take it
> somewhat personally. Plus there's gotta be some buildup about
> Monopoly (which did nothing for me as well as many of you).
Well, I'm pretty even-keeled when it comes to Pat's work. Most of what he
and his team(s) have done in the past would, in my book, fall under the
"slightly better than average" category, all the way up to "all-time
classic" category. He *certainly* knows how to design a good playfield.
That doesn't mean I clam up when he flat-out misses, though. Roller Coaster
Tycoon, on almost *all* fronts, is a total disaster. He *finally* figured
out that having two ramps side-by-side in three consecutive games was a bit
much. The Ripley's software (that I've experienced) is as buggy as a
summertime electrical zapper, and it *is* a game that is easy, and is *far*,
*FAR* too easy to rack up multiple specials on. I mean, really: no fewer
than *six* different ways to light special in the game, with some being
repeatable several times in a single game? That's a long way from being
"special".
No lie: on the last time I played Ripley's, I plunged my first ball, and on
my *very first shot*, I *earned* a lit Special. No, not through a Mystery
award of any kind, I *earned* it. That's insane, *especially* considering
that Specials on Stern games do *not* disappear when the current ball in
play is over. They're there until either: A. You collect them, or B.
Your game is completed. That's just far too easy, in my opinion.
Still, it makes Roller Coaster Tycoon look like the twitchy uncle with
Tourette's Syndrome that no one wants to talk to...or about.
> I'd say the bitching over the upper flipper is a good sign though. It
> means people *want* to play it, and they *want* more from it. And,
> fortunately, it's something most everyone can do (swapping in a more
> powerful flipper). I've been reading the boards since January and
> done a fair share of googling--I don't recall ever seeing a post about
> 'fixing' a Monopoly. It may be that it simply had nothing to 'fix',
> but I think it's more indicative of no one caring. TSPP, LOTR, and
> now RBION--seems like a good streak to me and RBION, even without
> playing it, looks and sounds vastly superior to Monopoly.
It is superior to Monopoly, and I'm happy to say so. I *enjoy* the
multiball in this game more than any Lawlor game since NGG, and I find this
multiball smile-worthy. Just because I'm critical of some things doesn't
mean I deem the game a failure. I would actually think that such an
attitude would be appreciated, one of well-intentioned, constructive
criticism, with the aim being making better, more profitable, more
exciting/satisfying games in the future.
I like the game. I just wish that it wasn't so darned easy to grab Specials
everywhere, and I wish that the software wasn't so buggy, and perhaps a bit
shortsighted (c'mon...Million-Plus that *finishes* (and after only four
shots)? Ick...). I was critical of LOTR's problems and TSPP's problems,
too, but I still think highly of them, and I *also* expounded on the things
they got *right*, too, as I've done with RBION.
> Finally, wrapping this IMHO diatribe up, I agree that Stern gets no
> free rides. In fact, because they are the only pin company left,
> Stern must be that much more concerned about issuing satisfactory
> products. Past issues with flipper power, sound quality,
> etc.--improvments are always the goal. If people never complained,
> things wouldn't improve.
Exactly. Although, in many cases, constructive criticism and complaining
are seen as two totally different and unrelated things. Sometimes they are,
and they should be called out as such. For the most part, though, I think
that issues such as this one, about the upper flipper on RBION, are
legitimate ones that *should* be brought up.
In this case, Pat and Co. had already put their collective heads together
and made the call, based on what he/they thought was best for the
production. I understand his/their reasoning, and yet I still disagree.
It's not a personal thing, it's just that I think the game would be
better/more satisfying with a stronger upper flipper.
I applaud Wolffy's moxie in stepping up to the plate and bringing it to the
attention of the group, as an issue with which he had a problem. Calling on
the Project Manager took some guts, and he kind of took it on the chin for
his trouble. Could he have stated his reply to Pat's message a bit more
respectfully? Without a doubt. Could Pat have been a bit more respectful
in his initial reply? You bet, but the issue is still valid, even if Pat
had his reasons for why he chose the particular components that he did.
There *is* room (or at least there *should* be room) for people to
*strongly* disagree without being disagreeable. I think the line may have
been crossed on both sides of the political fence here, but that shouldn't
keep people from speaking their minds on anything about this hobby they're
passionate about, whether it's a particular title, a particular shot, or
even something as small as a particular part...there's room for people to
speak their mind on the issues they see.
Disagreement is part and parcel of what makes a community interesting. How
people *handle* that disagreement is what can make or break said community.
Aron
Wolffy
Todd Lainhart wrote:
> Is it just the flipper coil issue that keeps it from becoming an "instant
> classic" (or is it an EOS switch like KME says?), or is it more than that?
There's a few other areas that could be modified or altered to correct
something that doesn't seem quite right. I'm sorta sitting on those
until I get some more play time on the game. The coil issue came up
becuase there was a small debate about that (offline from RGP) and then
there were some other comments that popped up here.
> Shoot - if it were just the coil, get your own machine and replace the coil
> (understanding that that doesn't help with the location machines).
Nope, not just the coil. However if someone bought the game this would
be the easiest of the changes.
> What other machines are the "complete package" or come close to it? Are you
> talking all of pindom, or just Stern? If the former, that's pretty high
> praise to get worked up over just a coil.
I talk all of pindom: From Seawitch to Party Zone to Funhouse to Black
Rose to Twilight Zone to Attack From Mars to Cirqus Voltaire to ???
T3 didn't make the list because it isn't complete in terms of art and
music. Ripley's comes really, really close.
-wolffy
Wolffy
day and I have to face new, (non-pinball) challenges. All I will say is
that Pat has provided me new material which will surface in the future. :)
-wolffy
Manic
"Wolffy" <sendnospa...@gaspar.net> wrote in message news:6r2dnU9M3tB...@speakeasy.net...
Chris Woodruff
suspense! :)
cw
Wolffy <sendnospa...@gaspar.net> wrote in
news:6r2dnU9M3tB...@speakeasy.net:
Krellan
> (Despite never having personally played a Ripley's yet--must I subject
> myself to the touristy area of San Francisco to play one? I can't
> imagine that the Ripley's museum over there didn't get one....)
Is there one there? I'm still looking for one in the greater SF Bay
Area, and haven't found one at all.
> done a fair share of googling--I don't recall ever seeing a post about
> 'fixing' a Monopoly. It may be that it simply had nothing to 'fix',
> but I think it's more indicative of no one caring. TSPP, LOTR, and
> now RBION--seems like a good streak to me and RBION, even without
> playing it, looks and sounds vastly superior to Monopoly.
Actually, there were a lot of posts regarding Monopoly. I think it's
the first Stern game that got a lot of HUO buyers, who went out and
discovered mods for the game to better suit the home audience. Since
then, almost every Stern game since Monopoly has had some mods
suggested for it! Off the top of my head, I can think of three major
fixes for Monopoly, of which at least 1 or 2 were implemented by Stern
itself, late in the production run:
* Put a flat sheet of transparent plastic over the entrance area of
the two ramps, in order to prevent airballs jumping off the ramp
and/or reflecting SDTM
* Put another sheet of plastic *behind* the Electric Company
scoreboard assembly, so that an airball doesn't short out the exposed
circuit board there and cause permanent damage to the game
* Put yet another sheet of plastic over the side ramp/Free Parking
target area, so that the ball doesn't climb the cliff in the side ramp
plastic moulding and come back the wrong way down the left ramp (a
very powerful shot can do this)
* Install a resistor somewhere in the speaker output, to lower the
overall power level of the amplifier. In home use, when the volume is
really low, the background hiss of the amplifier can become very
annoying. This mod allows the game volume to be cranked up almost all
the way, without being very loud. It also neuters that horribly
jarring Stern "knocker" replay sound!
Josh
pinball at krellan dot com