With WoZ announcement- is Stern rethinking their strategy?
MB
higher end to Jack.
In light of $6,000+ (street price) LE versions that still have crappy
pixelated artwork, lackluster rules and gameplay, no innovations
whatsoever, etc-
I don't see how they can possibly compete with WoZ and perhaps others
to follow.
I don't believe there is room for two manufacturers of higher end or
"collectable" machines, and I doubt that they could really survive on
the thin margins of their Costco or regular versions. I believe even
Gary said (or alluded to) a few years back that a second manufacturer
would be the death knell. Competition is a great thing and the better
product and bang for the buck should prevail. I just do not think that
in today's climate and with pinball on a steady decline- both can
survive at the high end.
So- does any one believe that Gary is going to re-think his whole
approach? What about his "investors"? What could/should they do?
*assuming* for a moment that Jack does everything that he says and the
machine is quality AND fun to play- I think the only Stern that could
compete at >$4,000 is the Stern that gave us LOTR,TSPP, POTC, SM-
nothing on the cheap besides flippers and artwork- solid designs with
great programming. If I were an op- I'd HAVE to consider paying Jack's
price as well- if the machine is going to attract more quarters
(dollars?) then that's a better ROI. With better resale down the road
as well.
Gary et Co. better be re-thinking. They have 1-2 more chances before
WoZ to step it up. TRS sure isn't it. As much as I was looking forward
to TRON- I now have big doubts that it will be the kind of effort that
brought us FGY or SM. And, frankly, I'm just NOT going to buy another
machine that has crappy pixelated/photoshopped artwork. Period. Go
back to restored WMS/BLYs first. It will be Stern's job to tempt me
before WoZ- because my money stays in my pocket until Jack is ready.
Del
I do not think Stern will change a thining "until" after they see what
Jack turns out, Why should they ?, As of right now they all but Own
the Pinball market for New games .
I'm waiting on Jack myself .
Pin-Del,
cargpb28
DesignerJpop
I think they both need to make a $2995. pinball again.....not
many folks can afford a $7500. game or one that is $4995.
and makes $50. a week on location....
For me a super-creative home pinball for $2995...would rock!
John
Rare Hero
> Seems to me they damn well better. Unless they just want to cede the
> higher end to Jack.
> In light of $6,000+ (street price)
Street price isn't reality price. A Stern LE is still $2000 less than
a Jersey Jack ($1000 less if you preorder)
> LE versions that still have crappy
> pixelated artwork,
Only if you're sticking your face in it...and who does that, really?
> lackluster rules and gameplay,
The 150 games I've put on my Avatar since Friday and 1000 games I've
put on my Iron Man since May would beg to differ. :)
> no innovations whatsoever, etc-
Fun counts for something, no?
> I don't see how they can possibly compete with WoZ and perhaps others
> to follow.
Maybe, maybe not. We haven't seen anything yet....if we're basing
things on theme along (cuz what else do we have w/ WOZ so far), I'll
take the excitement of IM and Avatar all day long over Oz.
> I don't believe there is room for two manufacturers of higher end or
> "collectable" machines, and I doubt that they could really survive on
> the thin margins of their Costco or regular versions. I believe even
> Gary said (or alluded to) a few years back that a second manufacturer
> would be the death knell. Competition is a great thing and the better
> product and bang for the buck should prevail. I just do not think that
> in today's climate and with pinball on a steady decline- both can
> survive at the high end.
So maybe Jack will make games for collectors, and Stern will make
games for ops (and collectors who don't want to spend as much).
> So- does any one believe that Gary is going to re-think his whole
> approach? What about his "investors"? What could/should they do?
Keep making fun games? Maybe not quite as cheapy-cheap as
Stones....that's even below my standards....but I'm pretty happy w/
last year's titles.
> *assuming* for a moment that Jack does everything that he says and the
> machine is quality AND fun to play- I think the only Stern that could
> compete at >$4,000 is the Stern that gave us LOTR,TSPP, POTC, SM-
> nothing on the cheap besides flippers and artwork- solid designs with
> great programming. If I were an op- I'd HAVE to consider paying Jack's
> price as well- if the machine is going to attract more quarters
> (dollars?) then that's a better ROI. With better resale down the road
> as well.
Ops barely put pinballs out as-is, do you really think they're going
to buy a game that costs them $3500 more, and is harder to maintain/
clean due to the (alleged) complexity? (Although after listening to
the spooky podcast, operating difficulties might be addressed...sounds
like they plan on "reinventing" a lot of things...so, we'll see)
> Gary et Co. better be re-thinking.
They did. They rethinked into making simpler designs that newbies can
understand and players will be challenged by. So far, it's worked for
them.
>They have 1-2 more chances before
> WoZ to step it up. TRS sure isn't it.
Maybe to us "hardcores" ...but to the guy in his 40's w/ a Mancave who
wants a brand new pinball, what's going to be cooler to him? Stones
or Oz?
>As much as I was looking forward
> to TRON- I now have big doubts that it will be the kind of effort that
> brought us FGY or SM.
This thread is just pure speculation...lol. Wait 'n see...Tron, Oz,
whatever...
> And, frankly, I'm just NOT going to buy another
> machine that has crappy pixelated/photoshopped artwork. Period. Go
> back to restored WMS/BLYs first. It will be Stern's job to tempt me
> before WoZ- because my money stays in my pocket until Jack is ready.
That's fine. No one should feel OBLIGATED to purchase new pinball
machines. I've bought a few, but don't plan on buying anymore unless
one really blows me away, game and theme combined....maybe Jack's next
game?
Greg
Gman3
the group, as a whole, that will design and produce WOZ hasn't been
duplicated since the wonderful 90' WMS years.
you can ONLY produce truelly GREAT stuff if you are having fun and
enjoying yourself and you don't have some boss cutting out all your
great ideas to save a buck.
I will be putting my first pre-order in ever as pinball needs to make
a change to make an attempt to get it back to where it was.
6 K for any LE Stern is becoming ridiculous. I understood Sterns
philosophy when they were producing games for under $4 K NIB, but with
prices reaching over and beyond $6 K lately, there has to be a better
option.
Rare Hero
> 6 K for any LE Stern is becoming ridiculous.
It would be. ...but no one paid that much for Avatar LE!
Greg
BarryMinnesota13
the design and production of his pinball machines. He responded it is
all about the silver ball and play field. Other stuff is secondary
and in some cases negative to the game.
I asked about small LED TFT type displays on/in the play field, and he
stated the plastic covers would deter from the game play. My take is
he wants to remain "old school" on design until forced into adoption
of new technology. Seems that mylar covered play fields would play
the same plastic on play fields.
I would worry that Jack's design leaks would be noticed and
incorporated in Sterns release on or about the same time as WOZ. If I
were Gary Stern, I would attempt to snuff Jack's attempt in the very
beginning before there is an opportunity for competition to develop.
Barry
CEllison
fan anymore, I am excited about Jack doing his thing, I'm still HIGHLY
unenthusiastic about both companies prices.
I don;t think there's much to debate when I say it's simply not cost
effective for OPs to buy new pins anymore. The OPs are the ones who
should be pissed off and disgruntled the most.
The other bitch part of this - I would guess most home users can't
afford $4500 let alone $7K for a machine.
Both companies are destined to fall flat on their faces if they can't
produce a quality game that is affordable.
God help me for saying this, but I don;t give a crap if this work
needs to be farmed out to China to make it happen. If I could own a
kick ass pin for (pulling a number out of the air) $3500 and it rocks
who the hell cares where it came from? Damn near everything I own is
made out of the U.S. so why should I start caring now?
Seriously!
-=Chris=-
Rare Hero
> NEWS FLASH: pinball machines are more than a box full of lights with a
> decal of the latest movie on the side.
Yeah! That's why Jack is making a box of lights with a decal of the
OLDEST movie on the side! ;)
> The first company that
> concentrates on putting playability in the box instead of billboards
> on the box will be the winner.
If only Williams had concentrated on making a good playable games
instead of that Addams Family, Star Trek, and Twilight Zone
garbage!!!!! Those bastards!!!! ;)
> I'd rather spend my money on machine quality than spend it on Hollywood royalties.
Yeah, like Wizard of....oh...yeah. Hollywood. ;)
Greg
Scott Whitney
You are making point. It wasn't the movies that made the games
popular, it was the playability.
Lloyd Olson
I doubt they'd even go over recent pictures and compare to some of their
pictures and start rethinking who they let in their own building if they
cared about security leaks. LTG :)
"MB" <m...@bergnz.com> wrote in message
news:3873c76f-f8d6-4901...@n10g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
mediocre game great by putting $50 more into it and calling it something
else. LTG :)
"Scott Whitney" <scottm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ac4176d2-69fd-41e3...@j11g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
MB
wrong
John
> Hi...
>
> I think they both need to make a $2995. pinball again.....not
> many folks can afford a $7500. game or one that is $4995.
> and makes $50. a week on location....
>
> For me a super-creative home pinball for $2995...would rock!
>
> John
From one John to another, Amen!
Rare Hero
> wrong
Well, if someone paid $6k for an Avatar LE, that's their fault for
being a sucker. :)
Greg
Rare Hero
> You are making point. It wasn't the movies that made the games
> popular, it was the playability.
Exactly. ...and I'm getting excellent playability out of my Stern
movie games - Spider-Man, LOTR, Iron Man, and Avatar. :)
Greg
pinhead72
collector...
Jess
Rare Hero
Well, that's different. :)
Greg
mr tobias
You're right, the price is moving in the wrong direction for operators
to invest in new pinball. But we don't know what Jack's final pricing
structure will be or how he will handle the operator side of the
market.
I would cut Stern some slack if they had reduced prices when they
adopted the simpler design philosophy and cut out things like the
traditional lockdown bar mechanism and so on, but they didn't. Instead
prices have increased. Now maybe that's because it's the only way they
felt they could make any profit at relatively low volumes but it's a
symptom of a company that is just about run into the ground.
Ok, I'll concede that Iron Man and Avatar have a certain something
that will appeal to some collectors and pinheads, and there's no
denying Avatar is an attractive looking game, way more so than TRS,
and more playable too. But where is the hard evidence that these games
are appealing to the casual player? It's not the feedback I've
received from casual players, or other operators, and it's one reason
why I cannot invest in Stern's recent products.
Lloyd Olson
it, or off shore production.
Either of which will be the start of the biggest bitch fests ever here.
Anybody really wanting a 2 foot by 4 foot zizzle, or made in China stamped
on it. let stern and Jack know now. LTG :)
"John" <joh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:83653432-51af-43ca...@v16g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
John
> The only way you'll see a home pin for under $3K is cheapen the crap out of
> it, or off shore production.
>
> Either of which will be the start of the biggest bitch fests ever here.
>
> Anybody really wanting a 2 foot by 4 foot zizzle, or made in China stamped
> on it. let stern and Jack know now. LTG :)
>
>
> news:83653432-51af-43ca...@v16g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 2, 12:30 pm, DesignerJpop <designerj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi...
>
> > I think they both need to make a $2995. pinball again.....not
> > many folks can afford a $7500. game or one that is $4995.
> > and makes $50. a week on location....
>
> > For me a super-creative home pinball for $2995...would rock!
>
> > John
>
> From one John to another, Amen!
Well, I hate the thought of 'offshoring' production too as I'm about
as red, white and blue as they come. However we can wait until
Stern's business is unsustainable to shed the jobs left here in the US
related to assembling pins or we can possibly become more tactile
(maybe keep final assembly and q/c in the US) and keep the service
industry around pinball alive. To be clear, I think that's the right
price point for unit/volume success and I ain't talking about no
zizzle:-)
jiar...@aol.com
piece(Made in the USA)
It happens.
chuck
Stern does need to rethink how they are making machines now. If they
don't change the current trend it will probably prove fatal. On the
other side of the coin Jack's numbers don't make any sense. Does
anyone think for one second that ops will spend ~7k on a pinball
machine when the ROI on any pinball is really bad? At 7K there are
~250 customer willing to spend that much on a pin as proven by BBB and
the kingpin list and further verified by jack's own number of pre-
orders. I have no doubt Keith and Dennis can make a killer game. I
would spend 4k on their game but I won't pay 7K for any pin and I have
the money to do it.
What does this all mean? Who knows. I'm just watching from the
sidelines to see the actual results. I'm pretty sure Jack won't become
any more than a boutique player if that price doesn't come down
significantly.
Rare Hero
> Stern does need to rethink how they are making machines now. If they
> don't change the current trend it will probably prove fatal.
They did change their current trend...wasn't 2010 a relatively good
year for them? I mean, considering the economy and state of coin-op
entertainment...from what I understand they sold tons more BBH, IM,
and Avatars than the games of the previous few years. Granted, I
suppose that could be attributed to stronger licenses...but if the
games were truly shit, then it would have been over. Maybe Tron will
be a gradual step back up to a bit more complexity to satiate the
hardcore players. It's going to have a 3rd flipper and lots of ramp/
loop combo action.
> I have no doubt Keith and Dennis can make a killer game. I
> would spend 4k on their game but I won't pay 7K for any pin and I have
> the money to do it.
Yeah, that's my view too....I think the only way I'd spend that money
is if it was a really amazing license or theme (for me....I understand
the objective nature of theme) and the gameplay was just unlike
anything ever seen before.
> What does this all mean? Who knows. I'm just watching from the
> sidelines to see the actual results. I'm pretty sure Jack won't become
> any more than a boutique player if that price doesn't come down
> significantly.
Well, it's nice to see some other objective realists concerning this
thing. I know it sounds like I'm pissing on the party, but I do want
Jack to succeed ...Oz isn't for me, but I'd love to see what's down
the line. Whitewater is one of my all time favorites, so if Dennis
can recapture that magic coupled with creative Keith rules...why
WOULDN'T I want a game like that to exist!??! ...but the Stern
bashing...gah, it's cliche at this point. It is what it is.
Greg
Beemus
And now there is a new kid on the block that could again impact the
business environment for Stern.
So, obviously, yes, re-re-examine your strategy. Doesn't mean you have
to change it.
No bashing, but they need to be prepared to zag if necessary.
Mr. 68
Well, here’s my remedy for less expensive but high quality built
games. Stern, Jersey Jack et all could sell do it yourself kits.
In the meantime, I’m way in on WOZ and Jersey Jack.
Kim - CARGPB #36
http://www.WrongCrowdProductions.com/
DMD Glare Guards – NEW Wide Body size
Pin2000 Glare Guard Photos: http://tinyurl.com/2bgcjjx
chuck
> They did change their current trend...wasn't 2010 a relatively good
> year for them? I mean, considering the economy and state of coin-op
> entertainment...from what I understand they sold tons more BBH, IM,
> and Avatars than the games of the previous few years. Granted, I
> suppose that could be attributed to stronger licenses...but if the
> games were truly shit, then it would have been over. Maybe Tron will
> be a gradual step back up to a bit more complexity to satiate the
> hardcore players. It's going to have a 3rd flipper and lots of ramp/
> loop combo action.
You're right, they did change their direction to survive. I love IM.
Avatar, no so much. Stones - I have to try it but I'm not thrilled
with what I see. The direction I believe they need to change is the
continuous cost cutting. With every game release we get a little less
and with no point of reference (see no competition) it's not extremely
obvious. With the last four pins cost cuts have gotten deeper. Rolling
stones takes it to a new extreme with plastics instead of off-the-
shelf toys. Granted, that doesn't effect game play at all. But if this
trend continues a stern pin will look very anemic next to a *possible*
credible effort by another party. There has to be a reasonable middle
ground of cost control and compelling gameplay. Again, on the other
side of the coin, companies MUST make a profit to stay in business.
The idea of a pin with "everything" RGP users want would tip the cost
scale so high that very few would buy the pin. The less people that
buy a product further increases cost and then it's game over.
CEllison
built outside the US of A but when are these guys going to realize
their pricing is more than the vast market share can/will bare?
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jack state over $7K but less than
$10k?
It's too much for the OPs to buy because the ROI is jack shit (no pun
intended)
MOST home users can't afford $4500 let alone $7K+. Nor can I
personally justify that ANY pin is $7K+ fun.
The comment about BBB - Jack's production run is WAY too large to even
consider these machines being collectible IMHO UNLESS this is such a
smash hit like TAF is/was.
IMHO (with all due respect) I think these guys need to wake up and
realize they need to adopt the mindset that you make your money in
quantity instead of trying to price gouge per piece.
All of this is just common sense but I'm not Stern or Jack. Would be
nice to have Jack jump in here and make a blanket statement to JUSTIFY
why this bloated price tag. But then again maybe I'm the only person
in the world who feels this way. A humble opinion from a simpleton.
My .02
-=Chris=-
Adm56
To me that's the best approach. Final assembly in the USA. As much as
I hate to say it..it's tough to have little old ladies making wiring
harnesses in America when you could get 5-10 little old ladies in
China for the price of ONE here to do the same things (and yes the
difference is pretty much that significant). And while it would suck
to have ONE more thing off shored that ship has already sailed...it's
damn near impossible to buy anything made here as it is. Why should
pinball be any different if it comes down to survival?
Lloyd Olson
customers in America and Europe. he needs product to sell to them.
That isn't directed at anybody but his customer base. Others may benefit,
but Jack is trying to fill his needs first. LTG :)
"CEllison" <clel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c6f711b1-b23a-4a5c...@s2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Drewscruis
just an observation from the sideline here and I have no horse in this
race, I understand everyones bitches about the cost of this pin, but
has anyone realized the cost of startup? there is equipment inventory
overhead buildings and staffing that all need to be accounted for.
granite 7k is alot for a pin but this man is starting from ground
zero, he has nothing, no machines no anything. so before you guy's
bash this price which is a little high, take into account that
building this from the ground up is not going to be cheap and I am
sure jack is fronting all the money to build a new manufacturing
facility and try to make a go at it. I applaud anyone that would
attempt this in this economic climate considering his target
demographic. and who knows maybe after the first one and jack gets
some ROI back then maybe the price will come down.
stevenp
Drewscruis;1620052 Wrote:
>
> just an observation from the sideline here and I have no horse in this
> race, I understand everyones bitches about the cost of this pin, but
> has anyone realized the cost of startup? there is equipment inventory
> overhead buildings and staffing that all need to be accounted for.
> granite 7k is alot for a pin but this man is starting from ground
> zero, he has nothing, no machines no anything. so before you guy's
> bash this price which is a little high, take into account that
> building this from the ground up is not going to be cheap and I am
> sure jack is fronting all the money to build a new manufacturing
> facility and try to make a go at it. I applaud anyone that would
> attempt this in this economic climate considering his target
> demographic. and who knows maybe after the first one and jack gets
> some ROI back then maybe the price will come down.
"Granite"? I think you mean "granted" here; use the proper word and
people may suspect you of having an education. And there is no such word
in the English language as 'alot.'
Moving on, JJ is not starting from nothing here. (Note: "ground zero"
means the point where an explosion occurs, and not what you think it
means.) He has manufacturing capacity for redemption machines, which
also involve cabinets, wiring, displays, coin mechs, etc. So it is more
a case of retooling/expanding manufacturing capabilities than starting
up a manufacturing facility from scratch.
--
stevenp
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
mr tobias
> I could point out that according to the podcast, Jack is building for his
> customers in America and Europe. he needs product to sell to them.
>
> That isn't directed at anybody but his customer base. Others may benefit,
> but Jack is trying to fill his needs first. LTG :)
>
>
> news:c6f711b1-b23a-4a5c...@s2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >I am realistic pessimist. I'm sorry that I bring up about having these
> > built outside the US of A but when are these guys going to realize
> > their pricing is more than the vast market share can/will bare?
>
> > Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jack state over $7K but less than
> > $10k?
>
> > It's too much for the OPs to buy because the ROI is jack shit (no pun
> > intended)
> > MOST home users can't afford $4500 let alone $7K+. Nor can I
> > personally justify that ANY pin is $7K+ fun.
> > The comment about BBB - Jack's production run is WAY too large to even
> > consider these machines being collectible IMHO UNLESS this is such a
> > smash hit like TAF is/was.
>
> > IMHO (with all due respect) I think these guys need to wake up and
> > realize they need to adopt the mindset that you make your money in
> > quantity instead of trying to price gouge per piece.
> > All of this is just common sense but I'm not Stern or Jack. Would be
> > nice to have Jack jump in here and make a blanket statement to JUSTIFY
> > why this bloated price tag. But then again maybe I'm the only person
> > in the world who feels this way. A humble opinion from a simpleton.
> > My .02
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
But you have to remember Jack hasn't usually sold pins at $6.5k or
more to his customer base. Maybe Jack believes his customer base will
support that price point, but I suspect there's more to it than that.
We know the price for the initial 'special edition' part of the run,
but who's to say Jack won't produce subsequent machines at a lower
price point aimed more at operators. I'm sure there's plenty Jack
hasn't revealed yet, and it wouldn't make good business sense for him
to do so at this stage.
A $6.5 to 7.5k limited edition machine may well sell to a modest sized
group of collectors, but I think he will struggle to sell 5000 at that
price point, which is why I think there's more to it than that.
Another possibility is that this machine will be so jaw droppingly
good that there will be considerable interest from the trade. I still
think it would be a hard sell to US operators at $7.5k though, but
there's more scope in export markets if the exchange rates are
favourable.
mnpinball
> On Feb 2, 9:10 am, MB <m...@bergnz.com> wrote:
>
> > Seems to me they damn well better. Unless they just want to cede the
> > higher end to Jack.
> > In light of $6,000+ (street price)
>
> a Jersey Jack ($1000 less if you preorder)
>
> > LE versions that still have crappy
> > pixelated artwork,
>
>
> > lackluster rules and gameplay,
>
> The 150 games I've put on my Avatar since Friday and 1000 games I've
> put on my Iron Man since May would beg to differ. :)
>
> > no innovations whatsoever, etc-
>
> Fun counts for something, no?
>
> > I don't see how they can possibly compete with WoZ and perhaps others
> > to follow.
>
> things on theme along (cuz what else do we have w/ WOZ so far), I'll
> take the excitement of IM and Avatar all day long over Oz.
>
> > I don't believe there is room for two manufacturers of higher end or
> > "collectable" machines, and I doubt that they could really survive on
> > the thin margins of their Costco or regular versions. I believe even
> > Gary said (or alluded to) a few years back that a second manufacturer
> > would be the death knell. Competition is a great thing and the better
> > product and bang for the buck should prevail. I just do not think that
> > in today's climate and with pinball on a steady decline- both can
> > survive at the high end.
>
> games for ops (and collectors who don't want to spend as much).
>
> > So- does any one believe that Gary is going to re-think his whole
> > approach? What about his "investors"? What could/should they do?
>
> Stones....that's even below my standards....but I'm pretty happy w/
> last year's titles.
>
> > *assuming* for a moment that Jack does everything that he says and the
> > machine is quality AND fun to play- I think the only Stern that could
> > compete at >$4,000 is the Stern that gave us LOTR,TSPP, POTC, SM-
> > nothing on the cheap besides flippers and artwork- solid designs with
> > great programming. If I were an op- I'd HAVE to consider paying Jack's
> > price as well- if the machine is going to attract more quarters
> > (dollars?) then that's a better ROI. With better resale down the road
> > as well.
>
> to buy a game that costs them $3500 more, and is harder to maintain/
> clean due to the (alleged) complexity? (Although after listening to
> the spooky podcast, operating difficulties might be addressed...sounds
> like they plan on "reinventing" a lot of things...so, we'll see)
>
> > Gary et Co. better be re-thinking.
>
> understand and players will be challenged by. So far, it's worked for
> them.
>
> >They have 1-2 more chances before
> > WoZ to step it up. TRS sure isn't it.
>
> wants a brand new pinball, what's going to be cooler to him? Stones
> or Oz?
>
> >As much as I was looking forward
> > to TRON- I now have big doubts that it will be the kind of effort that
> > brought us FGY or SM.
>
> whatever...
>
> > And, frankly, I'm just NOT going to buy another
> > machine that has crappy pixelated/photoshopped artwork. Period. Go
> > back to restored WMS/BLYs first. It will be Stern's job to tempt me
> > before WoZ- because my money stays in my pocket until Jack is ready.
>
> machines. I've bought a few, but don't plan on buying anymore unless
> one really blows me away, game and theme combined....maybe Jack's next
> game?
>
> Greg
Agree 100% with Greg.
Lloyd Olson
bought.
When you consider what Juke Boxes, fancy driving games, etc. etc. sell new
for. He may well have a strong customer base waiting for great pins. LTG
:)
"mr tobias" <john_...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11aae08e-e369-444e...@f21g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
Brian Munn
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think he will struggle to sell 500 at that price point to Collector/
Home Market.
Brian
Detroit Pinball
Chris Gray
> I don't see how they can possibly compete with WoZ and perhaps others
> to follow.
This pre-hype is great for WoZ but I am getting sick of the threads
especially with amount of real, for sure information that is available
- none. I am happy to see this project happen and can't wait to see
what Jersey Jack Pinball produces, but -give- it a rest until
information is released that has more details.
Has anyone seen WoZ? Do you know what the game will entail? Has
there been any info released that we can tell what its going to be
like?
This question/thread is not valid with the current information we have
on WoZ.
Pinball Life
>It would be
> nice to have Jack jump in here and make a blanket statement to JUSTIFY
> why this bloated price tag.
>
"full featured pinball". Whether or not it ends up being worth the
price or ends up selling is still to be seen, but "full featured
pinball" seems to be what the majority of the collecting community has
been screaming for so Jack is responding to the call. I hope they
both find success. If two companies can make pinball machines and
stay afloat that means pinball is getting stronger - and that's a good
thing.
Terry.
Steven
competition, but it might help to make decisions about questions that
there's to be dealt with like 'shall we remove this toy for
costcutting or not?' just a bit differently.
I don't expect a full turn or something from their current strategy,
but who knows it might help just a tiny bit with making games just a
little less cost-cut?
That having said I must say as well that I enjoyed Avatar and Big Bug
Hunter, and have yet to play TRS and IM. Not sure if I'd enjoy it if
gameplay (rulewise) would stay too simular each game. No problem if
some rules stay the same, but there should be some real
diversification in gameplay between games as well, as it should in
design. So I'm happy to hear that a 3 flipper game is 'in the
pipeline'. :)
mr tobias
> I've never had access to his books. So I have no idea what people have
> bought.
>
> When you consider what Juke Boxes, fancy driving games, etc. etc. sell new
> for. He may well have a strong customer base waiting for great pins. LTG
> :)
>
>
> news:11aae08e-e369-444e...@f21g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> But you have to remember Jack hasn't usually sold pins at $6.5k or
> more to his customer base.
I was talking specifically about selling pins, and I'm not aware of
many models that have been selling new for $6.5k plus, apart from BBB
of course.
Granted if Jack can convince a lot of his customers who don't normally
buy pinball machines to buy WOZ then he may run up quite a few new
sales, but that's not primarily what he said. He said that following
Stern's decision to go with simpler, cutdown product he no longer has
a product to sell to existing customers, and he stated sales had
fallen as a result. That says to me that at least a fair portion of
those existing customers are pinball customers of pinballsales. If so
they will likely have bought them at a price point under $5k because
we're talking Stern machines here. So it follows those customers will
have to find considerably more to meet a price of $6.5k or more.
No doubt Jack knows where he's going with this, it's just that we
don't have the full picture. I just find it hard to believe he will
sell 5000 machines at $6.5/7.5k, especially of one model, given what
has happened to the pinball market. But it IS possible if the product
just blows the competition out of the water. If he does pull it off
because the product is so good then there will be much for Stern to
ponder because they seem to be going in the opposite direction. That's
where this thread started from.
kmoore88
> Well, here’s my remedy for less expensive but high quality built
> games. Stern, Jersey Jack et all could sell do it yourself kits.
>
> In the meantime, I’m way in on WOZ and Jersey Jack.
>
+1.
kmoore88
Today's a%%wipe award goes to stevenp. Being new to this forum it's
absolutley amazing the number of jerk wads in this hobby.
Ataritoday
Interestint thread, always interesting to see the folks who talk about
the need for a great product which I completely agree with, you cant
sell something that is wanted.... but it also needs to be a business
model that works or there wont be an on-going business. I wish both
companies success.......competition usually leads to better products
and more innovation, so this could be a good situation for everyone.
The startup costs for something like JJ pinball have got to be pretty
big, depending on how much they use existing technology and mechanical
stuff. I wish both companies the best.
The good news here is that Jack is close to the customers because of
his business, so he should have a good read on what his customers want
and what they are willing to spend. Assuming he has that right, he
just needs to provide the right product.
Rare Hero
> The startup costs for something like JJ pinball have got to be pretty
> big, depending on how much they use existing technology and mechanical
> stuff. I wish both companies the best.
Jack already has a manufacturing facility, so he's not officially
starting from scratch. Not that I know anything about his business -
but here's one thing that crossed my mind: Lets say Jack doesn't make
that much money on pinball....or even loses money....but his other
machines are profitable enough to offset the loss, and he'd keep
pinball going for "the love of the game".....that's not something most
companies would do, but when a company is run by a man w/ a passion
for pinball - I could see that scenario happening.
Greg
chuck
> Lets say Jack doesn't make
> that much money on pinball....or even loses money....but his other
> machines are profitable enough to offset the loss, and he'd keep
> pinball going for "the love of the game".....that's not something most
> companies would do, but when a company is run by a man w/ a passion
> for pinball - I could see that scenario happening.
No good businessman runs a company at a perpetual loss.
Rare Hero
> No good businessman runs a company at a perpetual loss.
Well, not run the company at a loss...but like, for instance - movie
studios. They may have movies that lose millions, but then they have
big hits that make mega millions....so at the end of the day, they're
still making profit as a company even though a few 'products' lost
money.
Greg
chuck
In your examples the net balance is usually positive. If movie studios
ran constant losses they go under. Some did actually. Now, you can
sell a product at a loss to capture a primary share of a market. A
great example is grape jelly. Smuckers sells grape jelly at a loss.
But selling their good grape jelly at a loss makes them a huge name in
the market and they make up for that loss selling other flavors. This
results in overall great profit. If jack moved pinball machines at a
loss in order to gain ground on redemption machines I would agree with
you. In this case I can't see any reason that losing money on pinball
machines would increase redemption sales.
Daniel Tonks
> Seems to me they damn well better. Unless they just want to cede the
> higher end to Jack.
> pixelated artwork, lackluster rules and gameplay, no innovations
> whatsoever, etc-
> to follow.
May not be rethinking their strategy, but I think the success of Avatar LE
sales made them rethink their pricing for TRS:LE. :-)
- Dan
cody chunn
Suuuuuure.
-cody
"Rare Hero" wrote in message
news:a102d3e2-707f-4ad5...@x11g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
stevenp
kmoore88;1620190 Wrote:
> more
> > a case of retooling/expanding manufacturing capabilities than
> starting
> > up a manufacturing facility from scratch.
> >
> > --
> > stevenp
> > This USENET post sent fromhttp://rgparchive.com
>
> Today's a%%wipe award goes to stevenp. Being new to this forum it's
> absolutley amazing the number of jerk wads in this hobby.
I'm sorry, but illiteracy really bothers me. Stick around and you might
learn something.
Steve
Gosh, stevenp. You might read WHAT the guy wrote instead of the WAY
he wrote it.
kmoore88's post poses a valid question, and I agree with him on many
points. What many people don't know is that building pinball machines
is much more complex than any redemption game or virtually any other
coin op game I have ever seen, with the exception of bingo machines.
Pinball requires much more skilled and experienced labor, a vast
amount of parts (4000-probably double the nearest coin-op game), much
more complexity in construction, inventory, buying, engineering,
manufacturing, and a culture with experience and expertise. Many
trade secrets and production methods have been learned in pinball's
long of history at the old major pinball companies.
Any new company will suffer through a lot of pain and expense getting
started. I have experienced a pinball start-up, and it was total hell
as well as extremely expensive. Atari eventually gave up and the
problems we suffered through were immense and heartbreaking. At that
time, Atari had many production lines for many different products
including coin-op video games, the Atari 2600 home system, computers
and more, yet pinball was an uphill battle from the start to the
finish. Pinball is a different animal altogether.
I can't tell you how great it was to arrive at Williams and create my
first "real" machine. I learned from their culture and utilized all
Williams' advantages, creative environment, advice, production and
engineering history, and an assembly line and manufacturing
capabilities that were incredibly flexible and experienced. My
production numbers went from 3800 machines at Atari to 19,200 in just
one design cycle of 9 months at Williams. Williams' experience and
knowledge made a huge difference in our success together.
You are not going to win friends here with your bad attitude.
Please. Chill out and be nice. This is a place to express opinion.
Many here are not spelling bee winners, but they make good points and
contribute. There are lots of smart people here, and some of them
can't spell worth a darn. You will learn a lot more with an open
mind.
I have needed people to tell me to chill in the past, too, (though not
for the same reasons), and it's been a lot more fun since I heeded the
advice.
Thanks.
Steve
hey load
Seeing as we are being correct and all . . . Merriam-Webster defines
"ground zero" as:
Definition of GROUND ZERO
1: the point directly above, below, or at which a nuclear explosion
occurs
2: the center or origin of rapid, intense, or violent activity or
change; broadly : center 2a <the party town that served as ground zero
for those corporate … bashes — Rich Eisen>
3: the very beginning : square one
So the term was properly used.
kim
DesignerJpop
Great chime in Steve! Designing a great pinball is very
hard....building it to be problem free is extremely hard.
Yes Stern has to rethink everything I believe.....especially
as we see JJP will be using the whole WMS hardware system
and component design...effectively it will have the WMS feel.
That's a problem for Stern I would say.....To mention again..!
I think they both need to make a $2995. pinball again.....not
many folks can afford a $7500. game or one that is $4995.
and makes $50. a week on location....I think JJP will find this
out when they production sits idle for such a huge pricetag.
For me a super-creative pinball for $2995...would rock and
perhaps a nice full-size retro home model for $1995...!
John Popadiuk
mattyb
> Hi...
>
> Great chime in Steve! Designing a great pinball is very
> hard....building it to be problem free is extremely hard.
>
> Yes Stern has to rethink everything I believe.....especially
> as we see JJP will be using the whole WMS hardware system
> and component design...effectively it will have the WMS feel.
>
> That's a problem for Stern I would say.....To mention again..!
>
> I think they both need to make a $2995. pinball again.....not
> many folks can afford a $7500. game or one that is $4995.
> and makes $50. a week on location....I think JJP will find this
> out when they production sits idle for such a huge pricetag.
>
> For me a super-creative pinball for $2995...would rock and
> perhaps a nice full-size retro home model for $1995...!
>
> John Popadiuk
>
Unless you plan on making 500K of these $2995 pinballs it's going to
be a cheaply made pin riddled with compromises. Who wants that?
MattyB.
DesignerJpop
How do you know it will be cheaply made?
$3k is a lot of money for any product...all WMS were $3k
to the jobber core....
John
kmoore88
>
> - Show quoted text -
LOL, OMG! Your arrogance is beyond the pail. My first RGP blocked ID
congratulations.
mattyb
>
> - Show quoted text -
John, think about what you'd have to cost out of ToTAN, ToM, or CV to
put it on the market for 3K today; and that's having the game already
designed.
I'd love to see you prove me wrong though. :)
MattyB.
stevenp
Steve;1625089 Wrote:
Fair enough; I can (and should) (and will) chill.
But I also never said or implied that putting together a pin wasn't
challenging or more complex than a redemption machine. The post I
responded to suggested that JJ was starting from "ground zero." (I stand
corrected and will grant the informal use of that term.) I still
maintain the distinction: having a production capability for redemption
machines, which includes electromechanical components, cabinets, etc.,
is something of a head start as opposed to, say, the efforts of Wayne,
Herb, etc. That was the essence of my comment. I agree that it will be
quite challenging, but I also suspect/hope that JJ and his team also
have a pretty good idea of the complexities involved and a game plan to
tackle them. They are certainly not starting totally fresh in this
venture.
Rare Hero
> beyond the pail.
LOL, OK - now you're just doing it on purpose! :)
Greg
frenchy
> Jack turns out, Why should they ?>>
Ditto and ditto. Wait and see what really happens. What company
would change their strategy on hype and RGP posts about a joint that
hasn't turned out a game yet? Besides even if WoZ turned out to be a
killer game, as Yoda would put it, "one game a pinball company doesn't
make." An operator that would pay $2000 more so he doesn't get
pixilated pf plastics, him I'd like to meet. If Stern upgraded their
games to match all the stuff that this new producer's game(s) are
supposed to include, and raised their prices another 2 grand, they
*might* snag some rich, iffy home buyers... but I bet it would stick a
knife in their remaining operator/location market. A market that has
shriveled up whether anybody was making pins or not.
DesignerJpop
I am beyond the pail too...!
I disagree though somewhat...by the time Stern
waits...to see the JJP games....it will be too late....
The only factor that will play heavily is cost.....and
perceived value.....IMHO...
John
Daniel Tonks
"mattyb" <mdbr...@sentara.com> wrote in message
news:1353c866-03d7-47bf...@d16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 8, 8:40 pm, DesignerJpop <designerj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi..
>>
>> How do you know it will be cheaply made?
>>
>> $3k is a lot of money for any product...all WMS were $3k
>> to the jobber core....
>>
>> John
>
> put it on the market for 3K today; and that's having the game already
> designed.
> I'd love to see you prove me wrong though. :)
> MattyB.
Taking 1996 as an example, a $3000 item then would cost nearly $4200 today.
Incidentally, taking 1981 as when pinball first cost $0.50, that would
equate to $1.20 today....
- Dan
kmoore88
hehehe ;-)
Craig C
waste of effort, inventory, R&D, and time to have to keep track of
different levels of parts and design. It's also a bone of contention
to anyone buying games when the fancy game they could have bought
comes out later.
IMHO Stern needs to do this at the game level. Get a good feel of how
the market is and the amount of games you're likely to sell and make a
game to fill the need and cost point.
Cadillac game with all the bells and whistles. Real aprons and support
bars, brass parts if they fit the theme. POTC, LOTR quality. sell for
$4k.
down and dirty back to basics game, maybe no ramps or recycled layout
and ramps. Breakshot style, re-issue of classic sterns, games with
early system 11 feel but with DMDs. $3k
Maybe have an in between level game for $3500. Something like IronMan
with the recycled layout and ramps. plastic aprons and cheaper prop
bars.
All the levels and re-designing has to cost a lot. Also all the man
hours put into how to cheap out a game to save a few bucks but then
adding the cost of inventory issues and different manufacturers can
only add confusion and resulting costs.
meh,
-c
On Feb 2, 11:10 am, MB <m...@bergnz.com> wrote:
> Seems to me they damn well better. Unless they just want to cede the
> higher end to Jack.
> In light of $6,000+ (street price) LE versions that still have crappy
> pixelated artwork, lackluster rules and gameplay, no innovations
> whatsoever, etc-
> I don't see how they can possibly compete with WoZ and perhaps others
> to follow.
>
> I don't believe there is room for two manufacturers of higher end or
> "collectable" machines, and I doubt that they could really survive on
> the thin margins of their Costco or regular versions. I believe even
> Gary said (or alluded to) a few years back that a second manufacturer
> would be the death knell. Competition is a great thing and the better
> product and bang for the buck should prevail. I just do not think that
> in today's climate and with pinball on a steady decline- both can
> survive at the high end.
>
> So- does any one believe that Gary is going to re-think his whole
> approach? What about his "investors"? What could/should they do?
>
> *assuming* for a moment that Jack does everything that he says and the
> machine is quality AND fun to play- I think the only Stern that could
> compete at >$4,000 is the Stern that gave us LOTR,TSPP, POTC, SM-
> nothing on the cheap besides flippers and artwork- solid designs with
> great programming. If I were an op- I'd HAVE to consider paying Jack's
> price as well- if the machine is going to attract more quarters
> (dollars?) then that's a better ROI. With better resale down the road
> as well.
>
> Gary et Co. better be re-thinking. They have 1-2 more chances before
> WoZ to step it up. TRS sure isn't it. As much as I was looking forward
> to TRON- I now have big doubts that it will be the kind of effort that
> brought us FGY or SM. And, frankly, I'm just NOT going to buy another
> machine that has crappy pixelated/photoshopped artwork. Period. Go
> back to restored WMS/BLYs first. It will be Stern's job to tempt me
> before WoZ- because my money stays in my pocket until Jack is ready.
CEllison
decent folk, it's the small handful of negative people that feel the
need to attack on such stupid issues that ruins it for the rest of us.
It's one thing to rant every once in a while, but a consistent
negative trend is just crap.
Back on track - inflation people. There's no way in hell a NICE game
can be made for $3K or less. OK in all fairness it probably could be
done but no way is profit to be made. But on the other hand $7500+ is
just too much, I'm not one of those Medievel Madness type people that
bitch because I can't afford one, I just can't justify that much money
for ONE machine. NOTHING in the pinball realm for me is $7500+ worth
of fun.
So remove the average Joe Blow (me) from the equation. I find it
almost impossible to believe any OP would spend that much money on a
machine that won't earn squat. When's the last time an OP came to RGP
and bragged about making a killing on
pinball? .......................... crickets
I've already done this once before, but please do a cost analysis -
use $7500 as the figure. It'll take 15000 plays to so called break
even. Oh wait - if it's a 50/50 split then 30000 plays to break even.
Wait a minute ..... let's not forget about repairs (how long does it
take to recoup a lousy $20? Oh yeah 40 PLAYS or 80 PLAYS on a 50/50)
let alone new rubber kits and solvents to clean the pf. Dear
lord......................
So seriously all bad juju aside, there is little chance an OP can make
their money back let alone make enough to put extra jingle in their
pocket with a machine like this. I don't have a business degree. I
don't have any degree actually but common sense should prevail here
and I don't see it happening here.
-=Chris=-
Lloyd Olson
with a declining market.
I don't think price is the key manufacturers are looking for. LTG :)
"Craig C" <pinbal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5abb614-7b4a-4a6d...@k9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
aren't going to make money. Just provide a service. LTG :)
"CEllison" <clel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7dd34c37-0229-44ab...@1g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
MrSanRamon
> A $6.5 to 7.5k limited edition machine may well sell to a modest sized
> group of collectors, but I think he will struggle to sell 5000 at that
> price point, which is why I think there's more to it than that.
Just to follow up on this, Jack may sell a lot of WoZ, but I think it
will be a tougher time to sell that many of the next title.
First, people who spent $7k on the first game, will probably not want
to spend $7k again right away.
The other issue may be that even if it's a fun game, people will look
at their wallets and say...”yea it's fun but not $7k worth of fun, I
could get 2 “X” or 3 ”Y”
or 4 “Z” for that money.”
Robert
Rompen
> Taking 1996 as an example, a $3000 item then would cost nearly $4200 today.
In 1996, I paid $1,200.00 for a 1GB hard drive.
in 2011, A 1GB memory stick costs about $5.
In the world of electronics and manufacturing, price doesn't always go
up. It often goes down.
mnpinball
> stern was making great $3500 pins for about 8 years, and lost their tuchus
> with a declining market.
>
> I don't think price is the key manufacturers are looking for. LTG :)
>
>
> news:c5abb614-7b4a-4a6d...@k9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Maybe have an in between level game for $3500. Something like IronMan
> > with the recycled layout and ramps. plastic aprons and cheaper prop
> > bars.
mnpinball
confidence with Tron.
Back to busy playfields, 3rd flipper and deeper (different) software
unlike the last 3 pins.
CEllison
I''m hoping that Stern does two more things differently.
1.) The TYPICAL targets on the left and right side (give it a rest
already and do something different!)
2.) The inserts that run from the middle/bottom of the pf to halfway
up. Such an overused rehash that also needs to change.
Tron truly has the makings of a top 10 pin. It has just as good of
flow as most A list pins, has a third flipper with a second ramp. As
long as the rule set rocks this will truly be an AWESOME pin.
Ok - back to the WOZ channel.
-=Chris=-
cody chunn
Stones doesn't seem to be Starting Anyone Up.
Let's see what actually emerges from Gary's sphincter before we start
cheering the home runs. Recent events has given me good confidence
that Gary will ruin it if at all possible, or make it cost prohibitive
for the full-feature model.
-cody
> Tron and Transformers will bring the excitement back ;)- Hide quoted text -
Lloyd Olson
part to bring back the excitement ! Don't let us down Jason. LTG :)
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:88eda73b-35f5-4d34...@g11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
Expat
> What if they make 99% in China and send it back to USA for last
> piece(Made in the USA)
> It happens.
Or even better yet,the exploitation Italian leather goods like Prada
made in Tuscan sweat shops run and staffed by Chinese companies.
I always laugh at all the Asian wanna be moguls I see at the watch/
jewelery counters at high end dept stores here in Europe.They buy all
this useless crap thinking they're getting Old World craftsmanship
when they're really just paying crazy prices fer their own countrymens
slave labor re-labeled fer the continent.
Oh the IRONY ;)
mnpinball
The pro will be loaded.
mnpinball
> You already order them then ? Which version, Pro or LE ? You must do your
> part to bring back the excitement ! Don't let us down Jason. LTG :)
>
>
> news:88eda73b-35f5-4d34...@g11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tron and Transformers will bring the excitement back ;)
Pro pin is just fine for me and I'll add a shaker.
Lloyd Olson
programming.
Tell me you aren't wetting yourself just thinking of the endless
possibilities. LTG :)
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:405be035-3093-4166...@x11g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Daniel Tonks
> Tron and Transformers will bring the excitement back ;)
Transformers pin... well, at least there's no pesky plot to try and
incorporate from the second movie! It should have exactly one mode: a huge,
flashy, action-packed 8-ball multiball that starts out great, but eventually
seems like it will never end... until it suddenly does.
- Dan