Last time I buy Stern - if Avatar LE is true
Max Pinball
and sometimes only operator to put recent Stern titles out on route in
the tri-state area and I was about to buy some additional Spider-man
and Iron Man machines from the distributor.
After feeling like I just got screwed for buying the first Avatar the
day it was released and not knowing about or getting the enhanced
version, I am never again buying a NIB Stern. I can vote with my $$$.
I think this is really bad, bad approach to marketing. It's one thing
to change art, but not ruleset and other mechanical devices. I am
really pissed by this. I feel like I got the Avatar costco version and
will not be surprised if the version I bought shows up in costco for
$1k less than what I paid.
Max Blum
www.NycPinballLeague.com
Jonny O
Didn't Williams basically do the same thing with TAF Gold? A few
extra modes, fancy trim, etc?
The CNY PIN GUY
>
> - Show quoted text -
yeah like 21,000 units and like 2 years later
they made like 100 Avatars
my .2 cents
Max Pinball
but if you are going to change rules and mechanical devices this is a
serious problem for me. Too bad for the new york pinball crowd b/c I
was committed to buying all new titles first day of release... not
anymore.
Jeff Rivera (jar155)
Why don't you put that one out on route and make the LE your keeper
machine? I don't think it's going to be a dramatic difference, but
rather something special for the Avatar mega geeks.
flippinpins
I wouldn't get mad. I would sell the regular Avatar, You might take a
loss. get a Premium and if you ever sell the premium down the road I
am sure you will make enough profit to make up for the loss on the
regular Avatar. Stern is trying new things and they are not sure when
or how to introduce things without pissing some9one off. Life is too
short to get pissed and hold grudges. I am not seaying Premium Avatar
is going to be a Balck Spiderman, but who new Black Spiderman would
sell for $6500 out of the box.
GaryTheNoTrashCougar
I agree that they should have said something earlier about this. But
don't give up on your NYC crowd. You are operating it, nobody will
probably notice. If it was a significant rules change, then maybe,
but a few coils hear and there, probably not. I think this LE version
is more geared toward the home user. Just get an LE for your
collection and keep routing the standard version. Just my 2 cents as
well. Not trying to offend, we all appreciate operators like you! :)
--Scott
John Jundt
Didn't Gary Stern say that they were going to a multi tier model for
pins with the lite, regular and collector editions? This shouldn't be
that big of a surprise. I highly doubt the software change will be
anything monumental, probably a couple of tweaks to cover the opening
Sully casket and the stomping Amp suit legs.
Ron Lyons
Tiltaholic
I have to say I agree with your displeasure. I would think many
people, collectors and OPs included, will think twice about buying a
NIB machine day 1. There is now a risk that if you do so, there may
be a new version released a few months later, hurting the value of
your investment.
I would have no problem with them releasing the LE in such short order
as long as they made it clear to those who cared that another version
is around the corner for a premium price. I understand that, in
theory, stern will make more money this way. But if they upset
current owners of Avatar, they may lose some customers on their next
release.
I am all about making new features available, for added cost, and
letting the buyer decide what they want. Forcing the collectors, and
OPs that care to sell their basically new machines to upgrade could
upset more than just this customer.
I have a friend that will be buying TRON if it is made, and i will
certainly warn him to wait for a while after it is released to make
sure another "pimped" version doesn't come out soon after.
Lloyd Olson
"Jeff Rivera (jar155)" <jar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:01b9be1a-e69b-4b0a...@o2g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
Frank-Rainer Grahl
Bad move from Stern. Crappy lock down bar and playfield support bracket from Stern
doesn't make them easier to operate and now this. He was really pi**ed.
Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
-----------------------------------------------
www.pinballz.net - The #1 pinball forum for me
Lloyd Olson
bother with making a LE version then ? LTG :)
"Tiltaholic" <ch...@heilig.com> wrote in message
news:d967239d-1136-46cd...@y31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...
mytimac
pictures I knew Avatar would be next.
http://pinballadventure.com/Pinball_adventure/The_Events/Pages/Expo_2010_Tour.html#37
Boxes of toys that aren't on the normal machine. Why would those be
needed, the LE version of course.
Jeff Rivera (jar155)
> Maybe he wants the best for his customers ? LTG :)
>
>
> Why don't you put that one out on route and make the LE your keeper
> machine? I don't think it's going to be a dramatic difference, but
> rather something special for the Avatar mega geeks.
What is this, 1965? ;)
The...@thekorn.net
> Well a friend who operates around 40 Stern Pins basically did tell me the same.
> Bad move from Stern. Crappy lock down bar and playfield support bracket from Stern
> doesn't make them easier to operate and now this. He was really pi**ed.
That's the part that just doesn't make shit for sense, as far as I'm
concerned. I don't know of *anyone* who spent a lot of time in an
arcade who hasn't popped up a vid panel *by accident* just through
playing.
Plastic apron, whatever. Thinner legs, mehhh. But there is a reason
nobody tries to get to the cashbox through the playfield. With the
new stern design, they removed that reason. That's what I'd be pissed
about (and the pegs) if I were an operator.
Matt McKee
> certainly warn him to wait for a while after it is released to make
> sure another "pimped" version doesn't come out soon after.
Let's hope they thought this through.
Remember the Iphone. People waited in line over night, or longer, to
get the new phone (1st gen). Shortly after, there was a significant
price drop that really burned Apple's most loyal customers. They
refunded all those customers the difference to make things right.
Will people rush to be the first to buy Tron?
Yes? Wow I can't believe anyone would think that.
No? Hate to see what that means.
matt
Max Pinball
distributors are very upfront with me about inventory levels. seems
its best to wait until the machine is out of production and moving out
of stock. not that hard to gauge. I brought the games out early for
the players and the new york city league.
Jonny O
No, the gold special collectors edition included additional modes.
Jonny O
I wonder if the current ones are retro-fittable? At least as far as
the play features and code.
AFM_TZ
see it, and hope you would reconsider (i play on your route and
appreciate both getting them in and keeping our hobby going in NY).
When i read the announcement from Stern, i thought it was cool that
they were offering an updated version. I then thought of the people
who bought one recently and how pissed they will be.... its a damned
if they do and dont move.
It could of been us IM owners - bought an IM in June, and would feel
the same exact way if they released a premium edition months later.
Boy, Stern is in a tough position (offer an update? Piss off recent
buyers of the original item). I guess timing is everything - Stern,
please roll these things out FAR apart or announce them together to
avoid this....
zutton1
if they did that with spider-man I would be pissed
--
zutton1
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
Brighton Ive
Mr.Stern meet my good friend Mr .Marketing
Mr.Marketing may I introduce my friend Mr.Stern
<tumbleweeds>
Woooooooah ....guys come on !!!! At least say hello ....
No.
Oh well ....f*ck it..... who cares........
After all, its only pinball.
Rare Hero
> No, the gold special collectors edition included additional modes.
You can put those roms on the "standard" TAF and play them.
>I wonder if the current ones are retro-fittable? At least as far as
>the play features and code.
Nope. The code has been confirmed to only be compatible w/ the
LE....although if there are any updates that aren't related to the new
features, I don't see why Stern wouldn't release a code update for the
standard game.
Greg
CEllison
different models - so I guess I'd have to point the finger at myself
for being in a rush. Sorry for the current owners though.
However if stern were smart about this (hah) then they could easily
make more money on parts to non LE owners.
So, Joeblow buys a standard and the LE comes out. JOE BLOW currently
has to take a major loss to get an LE. Stern could sell an LE upgrade
kit that yes - will cost more than if Joeblow bought an LE the first
time around but it could/would be less of a loss if they had to sell
the non LE at a substantial loss. Hopefully that makes sense.
This nonsense about locking machines down (LOTR shaker is my major
piss off) is downright dumb in my opinion. They could make money
either way. My .02
c2
I agree, but did they sell so many Avatars that a premium version was
justified? I have no idea, just asking. Although rgp certainly doesn't
represent a large % of the pin-buying base, I don't see tons of people
that bought it. Certainly not as many as IM, and that didn't get the LE
treatment. It SEEMS like the LE was in the cards all along and Stern
just chose not to tell. I don't blame the OP for feeling a bit sour.
-Craig
monkeybutt
“teach Stern a lesson”. The thread happened early than usual this
week.
Mike M. in MI
with an LE version of IM. I bought IM because I like it the way it is
now. I don't care about colored or polished side rails and lockbars.
I like the game to look nice, but not polished to the point where I
don't want to touch. I would be cleaning the lockbar and side rails
of a BSM more than I would be playing it.
After playing Avatar last week, the game kind of felt unfinished.
Maybe this is Stern's way of finishing the game. Avatar LE is coming
out with the options that the original game should have included.
I wonder if some of the Avatar LE options will become standard
features on regular production runs after the LE models are done???
Kind of like they do with cars, what are options in this years model
become standard features in next years model.
Mike
DugFreez
upset by the Avatar LE announcement than someone buying games for a
route. I'm sure the LE is aimed more at the collector market than any
of Stern's other machines.
I can't imagine wanting to put a limited edition (premium priced)
machine out for the masses anyway. I have heard of BSM out on
location, but the idea of that just seems crazy to me. Is someone at a
bar or bowling alley going to be any more or less interested in
dropping some coins if it is or isn't a LE?
aceakers
Not strange and well said.
metallik
> with an LE version of IM. I bought IM because I like it the way it is
> now. I don't care about colored or polished side rails and lockbars.
> I like the game to look nice, but not polished to the point where I
You miss the point. Avatar LE doesn't just add polish, it adds
mechanical items and rules. It is a *different* game. You'd probably
be pissed if "Iron man LE" added mechanical animation to the Iron
Monger figure (rather than having it sit there stupidly while you bash
it), along with adding some gameplay modes, rules, sounds, quotes, etc
- none of which you can enjoy on your "regular" IM. So now you've
spent 4K on a machine that is significantly inferior to what is for
sale now. Would you be happy?
Rompen
> I have bought many many new Stern Pinball machines. I was the first
> and sometimes only operator to put recent Stern titles out on route in
> the tri-state area and I was about to buy some additional Spider-man
> and Iron Man machines from the distributor.
>
> After feeling like I just got screwed for buying the first Avatar the
> day it was released and not knowing about or getting the enhanced
> version, I am never again buying a NIB Stern. I can vote with my $$$.
>
> I think this is really bad, bad approach to marketing. It's one thing
> to change art, but not ruleset and other mechanical devices. I am
> really pissed by this. I feel like I got the Avatar costco version and
> will not be surprised if the version I bought shows up in costco for
> $1k less than what I paid.
>
> Max Blumwww.NycPinballLeague.com
I feel your pain, but I suspect you'll be upset for a little bit, then
settle back down, just like all the Apple people did when they dropped
the price on the new iPhone and left all their loyal customers
hanging. When they're the only player in the market, they can (and
will) shaft their customers, and the customers will whine and
complain, and then line up for the next pinball, even if it's "Justin
Bieber's pinball adventure!"
Maybe Gene isn't looking so bad after all?
phishrace
> I have bought many many new Stern Pinball machines. I was the first
> and sometimes only operator to put recent Stern titles out on route in
> the tri-state area and I was about to buy some additional Spider-man
> and Iron Man machines from the distributor.
>
> After feeling like I just got screwed for buying the first Avatar the
> day it was released and not knowing about or getting the enhanced
> version, I am never again buying a NIB Stern. I can vote with my $$$.
>
> I think this is really bad, bad approach to marketing. It's one thing
> to change art, but not ruleset and other mechanical devices. I am
> really pissed by this. I feel like I got the Avatar costco version and
> will not be surprised if the version I bought shows up in costco for
> $1k less than what I paid.
>
> Max Blumwww.NycPinballLeague.com
You say you're an op, but your post looks like it was typed by a home
buyer. Unless all of your customers have games at home, they likely
won't care or even know about the LE.
There is lots of other reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea to
operate this game. It will be Stern's first use of proximity sensors
and a powerball for starters. A marching AND falling Amp suit sounds
like a potentially high maintenance area. I also don't think adding a
powerball is going to significantly change gameplay either. If you ask
me, a lot of people here are blowing this way out of proportion. Par
for the course I suppose.
-phish
goatdan
> You miss the point. Avatar LE doesn't just add polish, it adds
> mechanical items and rules. It is a *different* game. You'd probably
> be pissed if "Iron man LE" added mechanical animation to the Iron
> Monger figure (rather than having it sit there stupidly while you bash
> it), along with adding some gameplay modes, rules, sounds, quotes, etc
> - none of which you can enjoy on your "regular" IM. So now you've
> spent 4K on a machine that is significantly inferior to what is for
> sale now. Would you be happy?
If I had enough money to pick up an Avatar day one and I had been
playing it for six months and loving it, if I sold it and took a $500
hit on it to pick up the LE (that I knew that I was going to LOVE) I
don't think that I would find it that big of a deal honestly.
But you also said something very interesting there -- A:LE is a
*different* game. There is no telling if I'd like it more or less
than the standard model. While the new animation thing sounds great,
the powerball feature sounds like a gamebreaker to me. I have the
same issue with it that I do with JD's Super Game -- if you play the
game twice, you might end up with it two times on one game and zero
times on the other. Whenever that happens, I tend to dislike the
game. If I bought an A:LE, the powerball would come out of the game
immediately.
As for being able to put the code on the earlier versions of the game,
I think that would be cool if they did that. You would have to set
the powerball to off and the toy thing to 'not march' mode, but I do
think that would be fair.
About the shaker in LOTR LE, I'm curious - isn't LOTR LE running on a
whole different boardset? If not, I do still understand why Stern
wouldn't let that code out... at least until the LOTR LE run has sold
out.
metallik
> same issue with it that I do with JD's Super Game -- if you play the
> game twice, you might end up with it two times on one game and zero
> times on the other. Whenever that happens, I tend to dislike the
> game. If I bought an A:LE, the powerball would come out of the game
> immediately.
I'm confused... JD doesn't use the powerball, it goes in TZ. I don't
mind it because it's not that hard to cycle the gumball machine (and
even easier to cycle the trough ;) .. so it's really up to the player
whether they get the powerball in any given game...
Fred Kemper
seodude
they simply are try to salvage the run by upgrading a few hundred that
they know they will never sell without the upgrades.
I don't think it has anything to do with satisfying collectors or
experimenting with anything. It's a last minute plan B to sell the
amount of avatars they thought they would without needing an LE
version.
Hugh
That is an interesting take on the situation and definitely
believable.
Hugh
mnpinball
People I talked with at expo, (designers, and distributors) said
Avatar sold more games in first 3 weeks than Iron Man did in the same
time frame.
mnpinball
> The mentioned at expo making more LE games and after see factory tour
> pictures I knew Avatar would be next.http://pinballadventure.com/Pinball_adventure/The_Events/Pages/Expo_2...
> Boxes of toys that aren't on the normal machine. Why would those be
> needed, the LE version of course.
I guess another big run of Family Guy is coming according to your
pics, or a Family Guy LE.
mnpinball
Rolling Stones is next, I'm sure NYC would love that one. Great bar
pin.
Lloyd Olson
Great street pin !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcKYHfhtTCg
LTG :)
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b198f63-afaa-44d4...@p11g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Daniel Tonks
I don't believe that's the case. If it were, it would have made a heck of a
lot more sense to simply add on the chrome trim, shaker, upgraded [recently
downgraded] hardware bits and maybe even the extra figurines. But it would
make no sense to spend money engineering the powerball system, the marching
AMP suit or the moving transporter cover, or the entirely new wiring harness
needed for all of this and the added lighting.
- Dan
Max Pinball
buy a year is not going to make or break them, but if this is the new
reality then so be it. I will wait a year and then buy, its very
simple. They are not selling a lot of machines. I was told by Chaz at
Stern that they sold less than 1,000 BBH. They come out with factory
upgrades to machines and unless you call and complain they do not
notify ops about them, there are no service bulletins anymore. Avatar
had two factory upgrades (on the lite version), NBA had some factory
upgrades as did Iron Man (new machines have a new Iron Monger
bracket). Stern refused to send me the enhanced Iron Monger bracket.
They did not even offer to sell me one.
Bottom line - wait at least a year after release to buy the machines.
I can tell everyone that new machines earn a little better, but if it
was even $100 for me more/month for the first 3 months I would say
that is about it... so $300 extra, not worth the risk of getting
stiffed with the costco lite version. Pins on location don't earn for
shit.
Phil Dixon
have a lot of cash to throw at it and would be selling some other pins
to partly finance it. I would be mad as hell if I sold this lot and
bought a NIB game only for it to be replaced with a better version a
short while later.
Whilst Stern seem to think (or did anyway) that the home is
irrelevant, it also knocks the ops as they now cannot sell on their
assets to the home user for the same amount to partially protect their
initial investment. The days of buying a pin, operating it and then
throwing it away are gone. I suspect most people here still have ex
routed games in their collections...
... Whilst we are talking NIB here, I'll wait now if TRON does come
out for a while after, waiting the feature improved collector edition.
mr tobias
> On Nov 16, 2:16 pm, Max Pinball <maxp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > like I said, I have no problems with fancy trim, colors changes etc,
> > but if you are going to change rules and mechanical devices this is a
> > serious problem for me. Too bad for the new york pinball crowd b/c I
> > was committed to buying all new titles first day of release... not
> > anymore.
>
> No, the gold special collectors edition included additional modes.
It did, but they were relatively minor additions and required no
additional hardware. It was also feasible to add them to a standard
Addams by changing/reprogramming the eproms.
Lee
Put it on eBay and call it "rare" ???
mr tobias
> I have bought many many new Stern Pinball machines. I was the first
> and sometimes only operator to put recent Stern titles out on route in
> the tri-state area and I was about to buy some additional Spider-man
> and Iron Man machines from the distributor.
>
> After feeling like I just got screwed for buying the first Avatar the
> day it was released and not knowing about or getting the enhanced
> version, I am never again buying a NIB Stern. I can vote with my $$$.
>
> I think this is really bad, bad approach to marketing. It's one thing
> to change art, but not ruleset and other mechanical devices. I am
> really pissed by this. I feel like I got the Avatar costco version and
> will not be surprised if the version I bought shows up in costco for
> $1k less than what I paid.
>
> Max Blumwww.NycPinballLeague.com
The money men are now running Stern and they don't want to lose their
investment. This is cynical 21st century marketing applied to pinball,
albeit in a rather clumsy fashion. See it for what it is, which is not
all about pinball.
The idea is basically simple: to get customers to part with more of
their money to Stern. Collectors are faced with having to pay a
helluva lot more for something (Avatar LE) that would have been 98%
standard two years ago, while at the same time operators are also
asked to pay more, but for a somewhat diluted product (Avatar Pro)
when compared to the standard product of two years ago.
Of course there's nothing new about this approach when viewed in a
wider context, but it's potentially problemmatical when applied to a
dying market like pinball with a core fanbase. A distributor once
remarked to me when discussing Elvis Gold that, "collectors will pay
anything", and it seems Stern's marketing men think the same.
Apologies for repeating something I've said several times before, but
I hoped Stern's new investors would help give us a pinball machine for
the 21st century, thereby making more money and hopefully gaining new
custom from an improved product, both for themselves and operators.
Quite frankly that hasn't happened so far, with the emphasis resting
instead on getting more money for the same or a lesser product. If
they manage to keep their customers, or win new ones, this strategy
will work and they can indulge in collective backslapping. But it
carries significant risk of backfiring should customers begin to drift
away or delay their purchasing decisions.
I'm prepared to believe Gary Stern isn't entirely comfortable with
this approach, but he probably had little choice other than to see the
company fold.
I can only speak for myself and say that Stern lost me as a customer
of several years standing after 24. I remain open minded and will
watch to see how things pan out, being prepared to go back into new
pinball if the product/price justifies it, but currently I feel it is
in the best interests of my ROI to put my funds elsewhere, and given
this Avatar business it's looking like the right decision.
Max Pinball
the Avatar LE. how the heck was I supposed to know that there was
going to be a LE model coming out, as some posters suggested. I think
Stern is simply pathetic and I can second some of the comments about
the shitty customer service. I guess this is what happens when you are
the only game in town, you just do whatever you want.
I buy the game day of release, I announce and market it to the 2,000+
pinheads on my NYC Pinball updates (many of whom own games at home),
some of whom then go play and buy the machine. I keep all my games
working and in top condition, unlike any other op in the area (with
the exception of pinaholic). The one other Avatar in NYC is so
unbelievably unlevel it is not playable. It's not about the machines I
buy, but also about the machines my machines sell...
funny as it sounds, they need me more than I need them. I can buy High
Speed 2 all day long for $1500 and it will get more play then a new
Stern machine without question. And thanks to the great service of
Rottendog and PinballLife all parts are available to keep the game
working like new.
JediTurtle
You guys...seriously. We have known for months, maybe a year even,
that this was the direction that Stern was going. It's been widely
known that they have been planning to go to a tiered system with their
games, releasing 2 or even 3 versions of the same game for different
markets. A cheapened "Costco" version for the typical homeowner
looking for something fun for the game room, a standard version for
the ops to put on location, and a premium version for the collectors.
This hasn't been a secret. If little old me, with no insider
knowledge of any sort has known this, then you big spenders and route
operators who buy 10+ games a year should have definitely known it was
coming. If not, then it's your own fault for not keeping up with
what's going on in your industry.
Personally, I LOVE this new strategy...it offers something for every
market. Do I think they should officially announce all versions at
once...yea...that would probably be nice. But like I said, if you
didn't see this coming, that's on you.
Did all the people who bought the new Camaro when it first came out
(in 6 cylinder only) get this pissed off when the V8 finally came
out? How about the 2011 Mustang coming with a way better engine than
the 2010s? What about the Oppo Blu-Ray player I bought which was then
released as an SE version with more bells and whistles (at a premium
price of course). This isn't exactly a rare thing guys...almost every
consumer product out there goes through a similar evolution. You buy
what you decide to buy, and when a better version comes out you either
continue to be happy with your decision, or you get rid of what you
have and upgrade. I can't even begin to count how many DVDs I have
upgraded to better versions and then to Blu-Ray. But there are many I
have not because the one I already have is good enough for that
title. Just because a better one came out doesn't mean I can't enjoy
the one I have just as much as I always have. I can't for the life of
me see why this should be any different.
Hugh
> Did all the people who bought the new Camaro when it first came out
> (in 6 cylinder only) get this pissed off when the V8 finally came
> out?
I understand what you are trying to argue but its not a good
comparison. People who bought the V6 Camaro KNEW that a V8 was coming
out. No one KNEW that an LE Avatar would come out with a whole bunch
of new equipment. That is the big issue here. For me its not a big
deal, I will just wait until the pin has been out for a while until I
decide to possibly buy one NIB. That should give Stern time to figure
out if they are going to completely change the game with an LE model.
Now we all know this is how Stern is going to operate. Hopefully it
doesn't destroy their ability to sell games.
Actually speaking of low production #s, I was surprised to find out
that less than 3000 Spiderman were built. I thought SM would have
been a huge seller; maybe it was the lack of code updates early on
that stalled SM's sales.
Hugh
Troy North
more on collectors. Lately Stern is offering collectors something and
people are still upset. Geeze. Sorry Max that your mad, I hope you
change your opinion.
Troy
http://www.topscoregamerooms.com/
Joe Jet
June 8th interview with Gary Stern:
---------
Q: Does the introduction of the “Standard” model mean that the
company will be moving away from the types of games it has produced
traditionally?
Gary: Not at all. We will continue to produce our main “Pro” models
with features designed for location play and, of course, our “Premium”
models that are designed for pinball enthusiasts and collectors. In
fact, we hope that we’ll be able to incorporate some of the results
from our R&D work associated with the “Standard” model into our more
expensive models. The goal is to bring down costs and price points
without adversely effecting game play.
--------
I dont see the anger - Avatar was released in October. This interview
was posted on Stern Website and discussed here at least 4 months
before Avatar was released. Also, there is the press release to
operators was posted here and discussed.
If the "Standard" or later called "Classic" version of IM has no
magnets, and the lite version of BDK is physically different and both
have different rules/gameplay/features - why should we be surprised if
the LE versions are different in gameplay also???
Max Pinball
until they are at least a year or two old (and I will buy on the
secondary market). Inventory and production run is no secret.
Distributors will tell you exactly what is in stock and what can be
delivered and when games are being built. Just call any of the real
distributors, not the guys that cater to the Home Use crowd. There is
no reason to buy a machine day one just to find out this news 6 weeks
later. As I said, I see no mention of the Avatar LE on the Stern
website.
I was buying new machines as an enthusiast, but my enthusiasm is gone.
I think New York City needs more classics. Many older games would be
just as new to the community as the Avatars. Sorry Stern, I think you
blew your left testicle off with this move.
c2
>
> I dont see the anger - Avatar was released in October. This interview
> was posted on Stern Website and discussed here at least 4 months
> before Avatar was released. Also, there is the press release to
> operators was posted here and discussed.
>
> If the "Standard" or later called "Classic" version of IM has no
> magnets, and the lite version of BDK is physically different and both
> have different rules/gameplay/features - why should we be surprised if
> the LE versions are different in gameplay also???
>
>
I don't get whats so hard to understand. Guys who bought Avatar out of
the gate are understandably bummed that they could have waited a month
and got a better machine. Its no more complicated than that. You
trying to prove to them that "they should have known better" doesn't
change how they feel about the situation one bit.
Hugh
Personally I'm not angry at all, I just find the whole thing odd. I
guess you could infer from Gary's comments that more features would
could be added. For the record I think having the LE models add more
than just art is a great idea EXCEPT when adding features that change
the scoring. If the RGPL ever starts back up which version of Avatar
will be included? I guess both will as separate games since the
scoring possibilities are different. Ultimately you can't compare
scores between the two.
There are two camps here: Those that bought an Avatar NIB and those
that didn't. The ones that did buy Avatar NIB seem split, some are OK
with it and others are not. The ones that didn't buy Avatar NIB seem
to be in the same boat as me, they are going to wait and see what
comes out before putting down the $$$.
Hugh
EZ E
pinball machine. It never pays, just COSTS you big cash! Everytime! Ya
double down on a loser, sell the Avatar you have to pay more for a LE.
Stop my side hurts!! IT'S A STERN!!! PISSSSS, it's not going up in
value!!! It's so hot the game is already discounted BIG $$. E
ChrisH
coming, you should have known" if you didn't buy Avatar. So imagine
you bought TDK on its release or even a year after. Let's say the
game is the one they released except the ramp doesn't tip and the
joker can is just a flat plastic and you enjoy it just fine. When
Lyman does the final major update, 1.5 years later, you find out it is
for the new LE version with the spinning can and tipping ramp that is
added. You also find out you can't update and enjoy the new code,
lights, sounds, and wizard mode addition because the code requires
those additional mechanics to function.
You're damn right you'd be pissed. A year and a half later you would
be pissed. So imagine it happens 2 months after you buy your Batman.
Are you ok with it now because all you have to tell yourself is I
should have waited? I should have known this would happen since they
did a limited SM even though SM was only cosmetic upgrades...I still
should have known.
I bought the original Avatar and I am mad. I have bought many NIB
Stern titles over the years. I bought SM and when the LE version came
out it didn't bother me much. It was chrome, a shaker, and a
backglass. I was a little mad that I didn't have the option up front
to buy the LE but only a little and in the end I prefer the look of
the red anyway. But more importantly, it is the same game. I can
update to the same code and I have the same features including the
shaker.
This is different. I can play TAF gold's code on the original. My SM
has the newest code on it. I can play my 2003 LOTR and experience the
same code as the LE except for the shaker which is a little irritating
but not enough to make me want to sell my original LOTR or be overly
pissed off. This Avatar LE is only a few months behind the original
and is an entirely different game. The LE Avatar is nothing like
previous LE version because of more mechanics, lights, sounds, and
rules and this is a complete departure from anything they have done
before. So an "announcement" from Gary that LE version are a possible
future occurance is not enough for anyone to think that LE versions
would be more than cabinet cosmetics.
The LE Avatar had to be designed from the start in order for the
additonal motors to be planned for in the design. So it looks to me
like it was planned and stripped and sold as pro. So in my mind Stern
knew what they were doing. apparently the parts were visible on the
Stern tour at Expo. Did they announce it to the Expo crowd of
collectors that an LE edition was coming and it would be what
collectors were waiting for? Nope. And it would have been the
perfect standup time to do it.
This LE version makes the pro version a Costco edition by default.
Stern knew what they were doing all along and they should have
announced it. I don't see the strategy in pissing off the early
buyers who are most likely collectors when the LE is geared toward the
collector market.
Whether you agree with those who bought and are mad or not, it is
obvious that a lot of buyers and even non-buyers are not happy about
the way Stern handled this and it will affect the way they purchase
Stern games in the future. I know of several buyers who haven't said
anything here that are really mad. I have talked to many friends who
aren't buyers of this title, but buy NIB Stern games, who have said
they will think twice before buying now because of this and consider
it bad form on Stern's part. These kind of tactics can't help any
company in any financial position. Large and global companies like
Apple can afford to irritate their core from time to time. Can Stern
- and for how long?
Chris H.
BC_Gambit
far is anybody bring up that this LE is significantly more expensive
than the regular version.
At approximately 1.5x the cost of the non-LE, that seems significant
especially for operators.
For the home market, perhaps those who are willing to spend $4K on a
luxury item are just as willing to spend $6K? It certainly appears
so, given that nobody has said given the choice they would have bought
the $4K version.
Or is the price point closer than I have read elsewhere?
Either way, if the home market is so price insensitive, hopefully
Stern will just release the Pro and Premium models together in the
future to prevent this sort of reaction.
kmoore88
> I have to agree that I'd be pissed as well but Stern had announced
> different models - so I guess I'd have to point the finger at myself
> for being in a rush. Sorry for the current owners though.
> However if stern were smart about this (hah) then they could easily
> make more money on parts to non LE owners.
> So, Joeblow buys a standard and the LE comes out. JOE BLOW currently
> has to take a major loss to get an LE. Stern could sell an LE upgrade
> kit that yes - will cost more than if Joeblow bought an LE the first
> time around but it could/would be less of a loss if they had to sell
> the non LE at a substantial loss. Hopefully that makes sense.
>
> This nonsense about locking machines down (LOTR shaker is my major
> piss off) is downright dumb in my opinion. They could make money
> either way. My .02
If Stern planned upfront to have an LE version they should have
announced that with the price differential. Then interested buyers
could decide whether to wait or buy now if the LE version wasn't for
them given the price diff. Perhaps Stern saw a heavy pre-buy interest
once Avatar production was underway and then decided to offer the LE
version. I think Stern needs to be given a lot of slack given they are
the only manufacturer left, yes they make mistakes but you need to ask
yourself, is the industry better off with them in business or out
given there are no alternatives right now. Having said that, if they
know upfront that a LE verison is in the plans then they should state
that so buyers can make informed decisions and not alinenate some of
their loyal customers with moves like this.
Max Pinball
be out for years to come.
If I bought it for home use I would be really steaming.
Bottom line - I will not buy new games from Stern and be the early
adoptor.
I am also writing a nice letter to Replay Magazine, so look out for
that.
Max
Joe Jet
I agree that waiting would be best for all involved...(except maybe
stern)
I certainly understand the frustration, but it happens all the time...
my Audi Nav system didnt come with a harddrive, then months later it
DID and it was the same price. You can buy any product and a newer
one will come out and its got upgrades and cheaper.
What would REALLY suck is if you bought something you were TOLD had
certain features and then when you got it it was stripped down, like
if you bought a BDK after being told it had metal apron/brackets and
then you got a plastic apron/pegs! (oh wait, that happened to me...)
Les Manley
I think people here are blowing this way out of proportion. The
limited edition game is to cater to the home collector's, not ops. It
was announced that this was the direction Stern was going months ago.
Should they have announced it before? I would have, but they did make
the original announcement so can't say it came out of nowhere. And by
no means does the LE version make the pro version a "lite" version by
default. The found things to strip out of the already barren IM, so
they can easily and probably will, strip Avatar and make a lite
version of that too. There is a significant price difference as well,
it isn't like they are selling the LE for the same price as the pro,
you have to pay way more for it. The biggest point of all is that no
one knows what "additional" modes or gameplay will be added. You know
Stern, it will most likely be a double scoring single sensor for the
"white ball" and that's it. TAF Gold only had the Cousin IT random
awards, a plaque and ugly bumper caps. Everyone just calm down and
wait until you have something to really complain about.
Lloyd Olson
cares about his customers. LTG :)
"Les Manley" <ine...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c015435-9b99-439a...@v12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
Max Pinball
entirely meaningless to me.
But why, oh why would I ever buy another game right away? why, would
I? I would just be foolish to do it.
How dumb can Gary Stern be? How dumb can the investors in Stern and
the marketing folks be?
I for one hope this move really hurts them. Like I said, I do not need
new machines to run my business.
Max
appetite4pinball
You could buy a $1500 High Speed 2 with the money you saved from
buying Avatar and not buying Avatar LE and put it on route? That
seems to make good business sense to me instead of just buying one
really expensive game. I'm just saying!
The Hammer
a1e1f9c9-8820-474a...@j25g2000yqa.googlegroups.com, Max
Pinball at max...@gmail.com wrote on 11/16/10 2:03 PM:
> After feeling like I just got screwed for buying the first Avatar the
> day it was released and not knowing about or getting the enhanced
> version, I am never again buying a NIB Stern. I can vote with my $$$.
>
> I think this is really bad, bad approach to marketing. It's one thing
> to change art, but not ruleset and other mechanical devices. I am
> really pissed by this. I feel like I got the Avatar costco version and
> will not be surprised if the version I bought shows up in costco for
> $1k less than what I paid.
>
> Max Blum
> www.NycPinballLeague.com
I am a bit confused about this rant.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sensing two different issues here:
1) Security issues for Ops. Lousy lockdown bar. Playfield support invites
break in. If this is true, then the Ops have a real issue here that Stern
should address. Is this true?
2) a) The "I purchased a pin and now a better one is available and I feel
cheated". If this is the real issue, then this is a childish response to
what Stern is trying to do. All purchases carry this risk. Newer, faster,
cooler [computers, cars, clothing, TV's, etc.] are always around the corner.
A 'once I buy it, it cannot be made better' attitude is not realistic about
any purchase.
2) b) Or, is it that there maybe a somewhat stripped down model that will be
available for less - Costco version?
If you purchased a NIB Stern and are upset that someone will be getting
something not quite as good for less, months after the 'original' came out?
Again, all purchases carry a similar risk. Discounted older [computers,
cars, clothing, TV's, etc.] are always around the corner. You were first.
Enjoy the advantage knowing that it will be fleeting.
I think what Stern is trying to do is great. For home owners, if you
purchased the original edition, and you just, gosh, have to have the upgrade
or your whole life is ruined, then sell what you have and purchase the new
improved version. Get over it.
For Ops, I do not see 2) as a huge issue. You made $ off the unit while it
was on route and a new pin. I don't see players turning up their nose at
playing Avatar because it is not the new improved version.
I think it will increase demand, for Stern sell more games and, hopefully,
make Stern a bundle of money and keep the company healthy so we have a
supply of new pins.
goatdan
Max,
I don't know you or your route, so pardon me if this sounds really
ignorant, but are you angry because you feel that the Avatar LE will
earn enough additional money beyond what the standard Avatar earned
that it would have been worth the wait? I've been sort of following
this thread, and with you being an operator, I guess I'm just a bit
confused about why you're so angry about this. You said in this
thread somewhere that you had planned on buying other machines, but
now you won't -- if that is the case, why not buy an Avatar LE with
the money that you would have spent on additional IM and BBH pins and
have the best of both worlds?
I get the disappointment with the home collectors who recently
purchased an Avatar LE. I guess I'm more baffled by your anger over
it and would love to understand it.
Thanks!
The Hammer
l...@ssbilliards.com wrote on 11/17/10 9:01 AM:
With all due respect, how does Stern coming out with a new and improved
version cause a problem for the Ops customers?
The customers will feel cheated because there is something a little better
out there and they cannot play it?
If that is the case, I don't see it.
The Hammer
48509cf3-f43a-45b4...@d20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com, metallik
at larry...@dlptech.com wrote on 11/16/10 4:36 PM:
> So now you've
> spent 4K on a machine that is significantly inferior to what is for
> sale now. Would you be happy?
Depends. How much more does the LE cost? If it is significant more
expensive, then I would consider it a trade-off. If it is about the same
price, then, yes.
How long after the original was made does the LE come out? Weeks? Yes.
6 months? No. That is almost like being pissed that a movie comes out on
DVD 6 months after it was in the movie theater. (OK, 1 year might be
better, but I bet Stern cannot afford to mothball the marketing effort that
long.)
Lloyd Olson
Avatar has been out a month, you paid for the game ( approx. $4300 ) and
took in maybe a few $ Hundred.
You ain't made shit yet.
And now you can sell the game at a loss, spend more to get the better one
( not just cosmetic better, lots of features better ) to keep your customers
happy. Your customers will be bugging you if yours is the new and improved
one, if not who has that. Or bugging the location and the location will be
bugging you.
Or you can keep your Avatar and watch income steadily decline, and still
sell for a loss later. A routed Avatar isn't going to hold value.
And you don't think that is a huge issue for Ops ?
I think it's a serious issue. LTG :)
"The Hammer" <LHNew...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:C9094FE4.AFA27%LHNew...@frontier.com...
Max Pinball
rails or plaques, etc. I never even thought twice about the BSM.
However, if Stern changes rules and mechanical devices, this is a huge
area of concern for me. I want the fully loaded game for myself, my
players and will accept nothing short of that.
There is no way in hell that I will ever buy a new Stern machine again
until it is at least a year or more into production. I would advise
any and all homeowners to wait at least 6 months to a year.
Stern is just plain old dumb. You don't know how many flipper
transistors have blown out on me and I don't send in for warranty
work, I just fix the thing. Their new leaf switches are crap and break
after 6 months, I just change them from my stock. The flippers
linkages on NBA are crap and needed replacing after 3 months under
barely any usage. Operators hardly bother Stern and yet they nickel
and dime me on the upgrade parts they change at the factory after the
runs have been in production for a few months.
Avatar had two or more factory "fixes", Iron Man had at least one I
know of (and they refused to send me the upgraded bracket that makes
it easier to work on the Iron Monger), NBA one, etc.
There is no reason to buy a machine until it is truly tested.
Anyone else interested in writing letters to the editor of Replay
Magazine should feel free:
Steve White
P.O. Box 572829
Tarzana CA 91357
Lloyd Olson
Avatar LE, or collector that has one and play it there.
Today's customers tend to know a bit about pinball. Some of mine post here.
And the op that has the regular Avatar, loses customers once they find the
LE to play.
"The Hammer" <LHNew...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:C9095062.AFA28%LHNew...@frontier.com...
goatdan
> Wow and holy F**K.
>
> Avatar has been out a month, you paid for the game ( approx. $4300 ) and
> took in maybe a few $ Hundred.
>
> You ain't made shit yet.
>
> And now you can sell the game at a loss, spend more to get the better one
> ( not just cosmetic better, lots of features better ) to keep your customers
> happy. Your customers will be bugging you if yours is the new and improved
> one, if not who has that. Or bugging the location and the location will be
> bugging you.
>
> Or you can keep your Avatar and watch income steadily decline, and still
> sell for a loss later. A routed Avatar isn't going to hold value.
>
> And you don't think that is a huge issue for Ops ?
>
> I think it's a serious issue. LTG :)
Lloyd,
I'd agree with you if I think that the 'normal' population would
notice such a thing, but realistically the only people who would
notice would be the hardcore pinball players. In a business like
yours, where you are well known in the pinball world and you're sort
of a mecca for people to come in and visit, I can totally see you
feeling like that -- but on a regular, standard route where I can't
imagine that 99% of the people dropping coin will even know there is a
second version of the game, I can't imagine it making that big of a
difference.
Did that many people walk away from playing TAF when TAFG came out?
Hell, I still know where there are a couple TAFs on route around here,
without the gold ROMs, so I really don't think that people are that
into bugging them for the latest version.
The Hammer
ChrisH at cha...@ptdprolog.net wrote on 11/17/10 7:35 AM:
> I bought the original Avatar and I am mad.
>
I said this before:
If this really drives you nuts, because now your treasured NIB Avatar pin is
no longer the best there is, and now, someone, someplace, will have one
better than you - well
Get A Life!
Or you could just continue to play it like you did before and enjoy it like
you did before. Depends on if you want to make yourself miserable or not.
Or sell it as a HUO, take a few $ hit like you would have anyway and get the
newest and greatest thing.
I am lucky. I am not a slave to having the newest and best on the block.
And you know what, I am not mad. I am (generally) pretty happy.
>
> This LE version makes the pro version a Costco edition by default.
Maybe. Maybe not. I suspect they will market a Costco version without the
coin mech and likely a cheaper box. If they are smart, they will remove
something on the playfield.
Lloyd Olson
would be nice if stern made the extra stuff available to ops to upgrade
their machines. LTG :)
"Max Pinball" <max...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3438a3f2-c890-47f3...@v12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
38 years ago when I worked for the largest op in the Midwest. I don't know
how many times we'd go into a location and the owner would slam down a trade
magazine and wonder why they didn't have something in it.
This was before the internet and instant communication.
You'd be amazed at how savy your normal population is. LTG :)
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:30b7adf9-0a02-4ce9...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Max Pinball
probably won't even buy the game at all. Really would I want to own a
BBH now that Iron Man is out, no. Would I want an Avatar given that
Tron is coming out, who knows. Better to be patient, but it's a shame
for the NYC pinball league and community. But my trusty pinheads,
don't you worry... There are many great titles to come from my private
stock.
Lloyd Olson
At the end of the year, when you add up all the pluses and minuses, you'll
see more profit. LTG :)
"Max Pinball" <max...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:246beb48-67e5-4cd9...@f20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
The Hammer
l...@ssbilliards.com wrote on 11/17/10 9:47 AM:
> Won't be a problem for the customers. They'll find a location with the
> Avatar LE, or collector that has one and play it there.
>
> Today's customers tend to know a bit about pinball. Some of mine post here.
>
> And the op that has the regular Avatar, loses customers once they find the
> LE to play.
>
> Wow and holy F**K.
>
> Avatar has been out a month, you paid for the game ( approx. $4300 ) and
> took in maybe a few $ Hundred.
>
> You ain't made shit yet.
>
> And now you can sell the game at a loss, spend more to get the better one
> ( not just cosmetic better, lots of features better ) to keep your customers
> happy. Your customers will be bugging you if yours is the new and improved
> one, if not who has that. Or bugging the location and the location will be
> bugging you.
>
> Or you can keep your Avatar and watch income steadily decline, and still
> sell for a loss later. A routed Avatar isn't going to hold value.
>
> And you don't think that is a huge issue for Ops ?
>
> I think it's a serious issue. LTG :)
>
>
> "The Hammer" <LHNew...@frontier.com> wrote in message
> news:C9095062.AFA28%LHNew...@frontier.com...
>>>
>> With all due respect, how does Stern coming out with a new and improved
>> version cause a problem for the Ops customers?
>>
>> The customers will feel cheated because there is something a little better
>> out there and they cannot play it?
>>
>> If that is the case, I don't see it.
>>
>
>
I guess my environment is different. I am lucky if a I have a single Avatar
to play (I am not that lucky).
I would be surprised if a competing Op would purchase the LE. It is already
an old title. Would it really be worth it for a competing Op to pay the
higher LE price to place a pin in a market that has already seen Avatar?
I would suspect that most Ops would purchase the first version in order to
get to the field quickly. If there is another Op who competes in the area
and they decide to skip on the first one and wait for the second, it would
be an interesting strategy. I doubt it would work.
If this becomes an issue for Ops, it would only occur in a competitive
market where there are multiple Ops serving the same customer base. I
suspect there are relatively few of those left anywhere. Stern should be
sensitive to those Ops and needs to work with them.
> And now you can sell the game at a loss, spend more to get the better one
> ( not just cosmetic better, lots of features better ) to keep your customers
> happy. Your customers will be bugging you if yours is the new and improved
> one, if not who has that. Or bugging the location and the location will be
> bugging you.
You describe a far more sophisticated market that I am exposed to. If the
Op says, 'that is not going to happen' will the customers stop paying?
Not all businesses can afford to supply all the 'wants' of all their
customers. A sad fact of life.
seymour.shabow
It hurts the OP's resale value too, if they bought the stripped "pro"
edition, any homeowner 'in the know' isn't going to buy the stripped one
- they'll want the LE.
-scott CARGPB#29
PINAHOLIC
> On Nov 17, 7:41 am, Max Pinball <maxp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > also, I just looked on the Stern website, I don't see any mention of
> > the Avatar LE. how the heck was I supposed to know that there was
> > going to be a LE model coming out, as some posters suggested. I think
> > Stern is simply pathetic and I can second some of the comments about
> > the shitty customer service. I guess this is what happens when you are
> > the only game in town, you just do whatever you want.
>
> > I buy the game day of release, I announce and market it to the 2,000+
> > pinheads on my NYC Pinball updates (many of whom own games at home),
> > some of whom then go play and buy the machine. I keep all my games
> > working and in top condition, unlike any other op in the area (with
> > the exception of pinaholic). The one other Avatar in NYC is so
> > unbelievably unlevel it is not playable. It's not about the machines I
> > buy, but also about the machines my machines sell...
>
> > funny as it sounds, they need me more than I need them. I can buy High
> > Speed 2 all day long for $1500 and it will get more play then a new
> > Stern machine without question. And thanks to the great service of
> > Rottendog and PinballLife all parts are available to keep the game
> > working like new.
>
> that this was the direction that Stern was going. It's been widely
> known that they have been planning to go to a tiered system with their
> games, releasing 2 or even 3 versions of the same game for different
> markets. A cheapened "Costco" version for the typical homeowner
> looking for something fun for the game room, a standard version for
> the ops to put on location, and a premium version for the collectors.
> This hasn't been a secret. If little old me, with no insider
> knowledge of any sort has known this, then you big spenders and route
> operators who buy 10+ games a year should have definitely known it was
> coming. If not, then it's your own fault for not keeping up with
> what's going on in your industry.
>
> Personally, I LOVE this new strategy...it offers something for every
> market. Do I think they should officially announce all versions at
> once...yea...that would probably be nice. But like I said, if you
> didn't see this coming, that's on you.
>
> Did all the people who bought the new Camaro when it first came out
> (in 6 cylinder only) get this pissed off when the V8 finally came
> out? How about the 2011 Mustang coming with a way better engine than
> the 2010s? What about the Oppo Blu-Ray player I bought which was then
> released as an SE version with more bells and whistles (at a premium
> price of course). This isn't exactly a rare thing guys...almost every
> consumer product out there goes through a similar evolution. You buy
> what you decide to buy, and when a better version comes out you either
> continue to be happy with your decision, or you get rid of what you
> have and upgrade. I can't even begin to count how many DVDs I have
> upgraded to better versions and then to Blu-Ray. But there are many I
> have not because the one I already have is good enough for that
> title. Just because a better one came out doesn't mean I can't enjoy
> the one I have just as much as I always have. I can't for the life of
> me see why this should be any different.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have been turned off by Stern's new pins for a few titles now. I
bought almost every
new Stern title without playing it until I got burned by WOF(code) and
some so-so titles. , . T
he most recent pourchase for my route was a beautiful TOM which I'm
bringing into a bar with
FunHouse. . It seemed better and cheaper than an Avatar. If the LE
edition
is true, I'm probably in and I might put it out, although Avatar
regular didn't do much for me.
I'm in for Kingpin also.
-Al
Max Badazz
> the $4K version.
I have. The difference in price would have cost me my Jackbot that I
bought shortly after Avatar arrived. I didn't have enough pin funds
to buy Jackbot, Funhouse, and Avatar LE all in the short period of
time.
If I can sell the regular one for very little loss, I may get an LE.
If not, no big deal at all. Having chrome, an automatic coffin, and a
dancing AMP robot is no biggie. Plus with all the airballs, the
powerball will be flying everywhere breaking stuff :-)
I am not sure why anyone is crying over this. Had LE been the same
price or very close to it, then hell yes, rage time. But at $1500+
difference, no way anyone should be upset, given this tiered plan was
well documented.
Chris (in NH)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/maxbadazz
jackal2001
had different rules, toys, cosmetics, I too would be pissed. At this
point I'm not sure what the versions of Stern titles are too be
produced. It seems since SM, there have only been two varients of the
same pin:
SM & SM Black
BDK & BDK Costco (Classic) Version
IM & IM Classic
Avatar & Avatar LE
I think that is all of them, but I could be mistaken. It seems as if
they plan on running two varients???
The question is when the next standard Coin Operated Pin is released,
will they run a LE or Classic version....
Max Pinball
the NYC crew. I already posted that the new machines do make a few
dollars more but not much, maybe $100/month for a few months. People
tend to try the new machine and then go play the other machines that
they already know. Its like music, you listen to the new song, but you
can really jam to your favorites. Over time the new machines become
favorites and that results in sustained earnings. I realize that I do
not need to have the newest games and in fact the biggest beating I
take on the pinball side of my business is the depreciation from NIB
machines. Old title are just as reliable, if not more reliable, than
new machines if you are a competant tech (which I am). So end of the
day, I am actually kind of happy about this and I will probably not
buy all the dogs (I do like NBA though and have two of them, but
resale value is shit).
I encourage everyone to write to Steve White at Replay Magazine and
send a copy to Stern Marketing. In fact I might even send them a fruit
basket this x-mas for what I imagine will save me upwards of $15k next
year.
phishrace
> I used to buy day one to get it out quickly and to give something to
> the NYC crew. I already posted that the new machines do make a few
> dollars more but not much, maybe $100/month for a few months. People
> tend to try the new machine and then go play the other machines that
> they already know. Its like music, you listen to the new song, but you
> can really jam to your favorites. Over time the new machines become
> favorites and that results in sustained earnings. I realize that I do
> not need to have the newest games and in fact the biggest beating I
> take on the pinball side of my business is the depreciation from NIB
> machines.
You haven't said you base your purchases on anything other than the
game being new. If you're not a regular, somewhat competitive player,
I'd suggest you recruit one to go down to the showroom with you. NYC
has plenty of great players and they don't care about marching amp
suits. Good players earn better than shiny turds.
> Old title are just as reliable, if not more reliable, than
> new machines if you are a competant tech (which I am). So end of the
> day, I am actually kind of happy about this and I will probably not
> buy all the dogs (I do like NBA though and have two of them, but
> resale value is shit).
If you can't troubleshoot a locked on sling coil on a Stern (which you
asked for help on here earlier today), I'd hardly call you a competent
tech. Checking the driving transistor after finding a fried coil is
standard procedure. At least if you operate older games you'll have a
website to get you pointed in the right direction when something
breaks.
Buying 2 NBA's further suggests to me that you're not making wise
decisions in your purchases. Any decent player would've steered you
away from those.
> I encourage everyone to write to Steve White at Replay Magazine and
> send a copy to Stern Marketing. In fact I might even send them a fruit
> basket this x-mas for what I imagine will save me upwards of $15k next
> year.
Avatar LE wasn't intended for operators. You complain like a home
buyer. I honestly wish you the best of luck, but you're a huge
exception. I doubt there is one other operator on the planet that
bought the first Avatar and is complaining now.
-phish
wbradley
> I have bought many many new Stern Pinball machines. I was the first
> and sometimes only operator to put recent Stern titles out on route in
> the tri-state area and I was about to buy some additional Spider-man
> and Iron Man machines from the distributor.
>
> After feeling like I just got screwed for buying the first Avatar the
> day it was released and not knowing about or getting the enhanced
> version, I am never again buying a NIB Stern. I can vote with my $$$.
>
> I think this is really bad, bad approach to marketing. It's one thing
> to change art, but not ruleset and other mechanical devices. I am
> really pissed by this. I feel like I got the Avatar costco version and
> will not be surprised if the version I bought shows up in costco for
> $1k less than what I paid.
>
> Max Blumwww.NycPinballLeague.com
If you were a collector for home use I could understand your gripe. An
ideal remedy would be if Stern offered an upgrade kit. However, that
would cut into anticipated sales and seems unlikely.
Now, for reality; if you are an operator this should have little or no
impact on your business. The average street user will pop in a buck
and see no difference. From an operator's perspective the LE would
represent greater maintenance issues vs. minimal on the newer toned
down machines. If I was an operator I would opt for the regular
version. Same with LOTR of SMB, I dont see the liklelyhood of greater
operator earnings there. Games like TZ, powerball and all never did
well compared to many others on route historically.
Lloyd Olson
Which isn't the case with the original poster. LTG :)
"wbradley" <wbrad...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:e18386b1-5ee4-43c8...@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
DesignerJpop
the regular veriosn.....but $1k cheaper....if I was an op
I would try this route....
We did tests like this when I was working for an operator....would
would put a Volley next to a Time MAchine.....and the Volley would
earn more!
But also anyone making new pinball is a good thing.....
John
On Nov 17, 1:19 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> That is great if your customers are average street users.
>
> Which isn't the case with the original poster. LTG :)
>
> "wbradley" <wbradle...@rogers.com> wrote in message
Jonny O
> I think people here are blowing this way out of proportion. The
> limited edition game is to cater to the home collector's, not ops. It
> was announced that this was the direction Stern was going months ago.
> Should they have announced it before? I would have, but they did make
> the original announcement so can't say it came out of nowhere. And by
> no means does the LE version make the pro version a "lite" version by
> default. The found things to strip out of the already barren IM, so
> they can easily and probably will, strip Avatar and make a lite
> version of that too. There is a significant price difference as well,
> it isn't like they are selling the LE for the same price as the pro,
> you have to pay way more for it. The biggest point of all is that no
> one knows what "additional" modes or gameplay will be added. You know
> Stern, it will most likely be a double scoring single sensor for the
> "white ball" and that's it. TAF Gold only had the Cousin IT random
> awards, a plaque and ugly bumper caps. Everyone just calm down and
> wait until you have something to really complain about.
Because you are talking sense I have to rate you one star.
John Jundt
wrote:
> The Hammer wrote:
> > in article 9PqdnZWml7zJl3nRnZ2dnUVZ_hKdn...@skypoint.com, Lloyd Olson at
> > l...@ssbilliards.com wrote on 11/17/10 9:01 AM:
>
> >> I'd disagree with that. The person who started this thread is an op, who
> >> cares about his customers. LTG :)
>
> >>news:6c015435-9b99-439a...@v12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I think people here are blowing this way out of proportion. The
> >> limited edition game is to cater to the home collector's, not ops.
>
> > With all due respect, how does Stern coming out with a new and improved
> > version cause a problem for the Ops customers?
>
> > The customers will feel cheated because there is something a little better
> > out there and they cannot play it?
>
> > If that is the case, I don't see it.
>
> It hurts the OP's resale value too, if they bought the stripped "pro"
> edition, any homeowner 'in the know' isn't going to buy the stripped one
> - they'll want the LE.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
That isn't true. Look at TAF and LOTR SE. Many people would rather
have the original and sure as hell wouldn't pay money for the LE
version. Many people may want to play the original over the LE if it
is anything like TAF Gold. Nothing like playing TAF Gold in a
tournament and your opponent randomly getting Cousin It's Hairbrush
for doing nothing. If Avatar LE has some random feature for the
"white" ball that doesn't involve any skill, but awards big points,
that is no better. If past experience proves true for Avatar LE, many
people are going to rather have the original. With quality, we are
not talking the difference between Costco lite and pro here.
Ron Lyons
the reason Pinball is dying and on life support isn't because Stern
isn't giving it the old college try, it's because the vast majority of
hard core pinball fans are cranky old men who are impossible to
please.
Les Manley
>
> - Show quoted text -
:)
appetite4pinball
Also see Centaur II and Eight Ball Deluxe LE. I don't see a lot of
people clamoring to get HEP restores on either of these games! I
don't really think the LE status is all it's cracked up to be. I'd
even argue that Spidey black is a downgrade of the regular game. The
regular game has much better artwork and features the regular Spider-
Man!
Also, I don't really think the chrome trim lends itself well to route
games. There's a Dale Jr. on location by me, and the lockdown bar
always looks like some kid wiped his snotty nose all over it. At
least with the regular trim, you don't have to see all the grime and
germs that you put your hands on.
I wish I lived in a town where i could thumb my nose at a regular
Avatar on location :) The closest one I know about is about 2.5 hours
away! As a home collector and frequent route player I could really
care less if an Avatar I played on route had chrome trim, dancing
robot legs, a moving coffin cover, extra lighting, real apron and
slides, etc. I would just be happy to be able to put my quarters into
any Avatar!
-Mike
Cayle George
ROFLMAO So very true. Yous hould sell shirts with that on it.
goatdan
> I'd disagree Dan.
>
> 38 years ago when I worked for the largest op in the Midwest. I don't know
> how many times we'd go into a location and the owner would slam down a trade
> magazine and wonder why they didn't have something in it.
>
> This was before the internet and instant communication.
>
> You'd be amazed at how savy your normal population is. LTG :)
So Lloyd, when TAFG came out, did people that have the original TAF
machines complain about them?
I can totally understand walking into the location that has a BBH and
asking if they are going to get the new Avatar pinball machine. I
honestly can't see a location owner stomping over to you and
complaining that there is a new game just like the old game (only way
uglier in the case of TAFG, damn I hate how that game looks) and that
because it has one crappy thing added to it, that they demand to have
it in their location.
I'm sorry, if I find an Avatar LE on location with the powerball
thingie on, and the powerball is awarded randomly as it appears in
every way that it is going to be, I will purposely not seek out that
game to play because it will be unbalanced. The stomping toy thing
doesn't really interest me in the least. And will an non-savvy player
walk up to it and go, "Well, damn, this doesn't have an extra toy in
it, I'm not playing it!!" I doubt it -- there are 250 of these being
made. If we say that 100 go overseas and 150 stay here, that's 3 per
state. And, based on who this is targeted toward, I doubt there will
be more than 50 of these that ever find their way to locations. Which
means, quite frankly, non-savvy players will have no idea that these
machines even exist.
I really do think that this side of it is getting blown way out of
proportion. To the original poster, I still don't get where you're so
angry -- and if you do have savvy players and they have the option
between a game that randomly awards a prize (the white ball) versus a
game that is a level playing field, wouldn't the good players want the
level playing field every time? I know I would.
Hugh
> So Lloyd, when TAFG came out, did people that have the original TAF
> machines complain about them?
Why would they? There was no difference except in software between
TAF and TAFG. Ops could load TAFG code onto TAF. What's so hard to
understand here? Avatar LE will add new scoring options that cannot
be ported over to the normal Avatar because of physical limitations.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Hugh
goatdan
Okay, so how many people demanded TAFG software on old machines? It
isn't comparing apples to oranges. I have NEVER, EVER seen a TAF on
route with TAFG software on it.
Lloyd Olson
wore out, when people started asking about TAFG I added it to the line up.
LTG :)
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:ac1f2cc8-622f-4ef0...@r14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
John Jundt
I have. And as an experienced player, I can honestly say I would
prefer the regular software. Like I said, nothing sucks more than to
be playing a close game against someone competitively and have them
get a random Cousin It award that makes the difference in the score.
No skill involved what so ever, but it can be the difference between
winning and losing.