adversary at temple
Igor Divjak
Does anyone know what happened to adversary mud at temple U? Hm?
Been down 2 weeks or so, just curious...
Darkman
>Does anyone know what happened to adversary mud at temple U? Hm?
>Been down 2 weeks or so, just curious...
Bigboy.cis.temple.edu seems to be a 386 PC now... I seem to remember it being
a Sparc before. I think that bad simm might have finally bit the big one.
Any official word on this?
--
--- Daryn Sharp Dar...@uiuc.edu
Henry McDaniel
>- ig...@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
>--
Well if it is truly gone, I say 'Its about time.'
I never knew a more totalitarian game in my years
of muddling. Perhaps Abaddon finally got his?
I'm sorry if any of you players lost stuff.. but
after having a mid-level character of mine wiped
for -POLTICAL- reasons last year, I can think
of no reason to pity the game *itself*.
Monty Python
good riddence. Not only did Abbadon totally wipe out the immortal
file(hence deleting my favorite char.) but he also(IMHO)destroyed
Adversary in putting up this new system, I'm sorry Abaddon but if
you wanna do something like that, just do multiclassing(sp?)
What you have set up is stupid.
*end of flame*
J.(Christie)Crowley
CRO...@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU
Scarrow
>IF(i say IF) adversary is gone for good, i also have to say
>good riddence. Not only did Abbadon totally wipe out the immortal
>file(hence deleting my favorite char.) but he also(IMHO)destroyed
>Adversary in putting up this new system, I'm sorry Abaddon but if
>you wanna do something like that, just do multiclassing(sp?)
>What you have set up is stupid.
*chuckle* This kind of holds with my theory that if it doesn't give the
players tons of power with little risk, they won't like it. Personally, the
changes to Adversary weren't significant enough yet to convince me to return
to the playing fields, but then, I'm no longer overly desperate to play a
game. It was a refreshing diversion from the overall stupidity of multi-
classed muds. Yes, stupidity.
What I don't understand is how your immortal was your favorite character
if you prefer multi-classed muds. Temple has never catered to those sorts of
whims, and I suspect if it did it would be fairly limiting. The new scheme
allowed you to practice what you liked, all you had to do was accomplish it
in twenty levels. For some reason, you thought you should be able to become
a powerful mage and thief and warrior and cleric? Go some place where you
enter the game with a copy of the city key held in hand.
>*end of flame*
If you're going to end a flame, you really should start one. About the only
thing you proved above is that if the mud doesn't have fifty levels and cater
to your every whim, you don't want to play it.
Scream that playing mud is supposed to be fun, that it's a game, what-
ever you like. You're lost in a vacuum and nobody will hear you anyway.
Those of us who have the taste to like: H. P. Lovecraft, Jules Verne, Julian
May, Iain M. Banks, Richard Grant, Gene Wolfe, Harn, RuneQuest, Call of
Cthulhu, Paranoia, Nuclear War, Cosmic Encounters, Hacker, Illuminati, need
I go on? We will watch and wait, looking for something a little more
progressive than yet another badly formed Dungeons and Dragons clone (serve
you all right if we kept bugging TSR until they sued ... *chuckle*).
Oh, and I suspect that though Temple might be gone, Adversary probably
won't go away quietly. That Abaddon fellow hangs around on net news too much
for his own good, and so it would seem we're stuck with him.
==== Scarrow who was DeathDealer but finally got a better name and .sig ====
--
Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
login
>cro...@mary.fordham.edu (Monty Python) writes:
>> [drivel]
>[Shawn's response to drivel]
>==== Scarrow who was DeathDealer but finally got a better name and .sig ====
>--
>Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
>bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
>-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
Finally, it all makes sense. That sarcastic, know-it-all sense of humor.
That willingness to have an opinion on any subject. That refreshing
"f**k you if you can't take a joke" attitude. Who could it be besides
DD? (Forgive me if Scarrow==DD is old news, but I have been busy in
real life.)
Glad you are still around, in whatever persona. :-)
Berek Ironthew, Paladin King
--
**************************************************************************
* "Rub her feet." -- L.L. * Jeffrey S. Clary *
* * cl...@iastate.edu *
**************************************************************************
Dan Brumleve
>IF(i say IF) adversary is gone for good, i also have to say
>good riddence.
If you don't like it, don't play, or go find another multi-classing
power-trip MUD of which you so fondly speak of below.
> Not only did Abbadon totally wipe out the immortal
>file(hence deleting my favorite char.)
About damn time too. I had an immortal there before, and I failed
to understand why everyone felt they had a "right" to their immortal
character, even if they spent their time socializing and procrastinating
instead of creating and helping out (as I spent my time doing, for the
most part.) "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
should be a prerequisite).
> but he also(IMHO)destroyed
>Adversary in putting up this new system,
Key phrase: IMHO. You could at least point out something wrong with
the new system. I didn't get a chance to play very much under it, but
that was because of lack of time, not frustration. What I did see of
it was very interesting.
I'm sorry Abaddon but if
>you wanna do something like that, just do multiclassing(sp?)
Am I the only one who's noticed how badly multi-classing and extra
levels will fuck up a MUD? Game balance is needed much more than ANSI
gizmos and hundreds of levels, and MUD administrators tend to overlook
it completely all too often. Multi-classing and 50 levels seem to be
standard additions to DikuMUDs today, and all of the rationalizations
I've heard are completely bogus. There also seem to be dozens of
"for the players" MUDs, which seem to add any "feature" that would be
helpful for players. In the last year or so (around the time I stopped
playing MUDs seriously and decided to work on my own) I've seen
everything from four-way multiclassing to a message that appears every
75 seconds saying "5 seconds until the next tick!!!!". Temple is
(was?) one of the few MUDs that avoided all that nonsense in favor
of a good playing system.
>What you have set up is stupid.
In your humble opinion.
> J.(Christie)Crowley
> CRO...@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU
--
_______________________________________________________________
Dan Brumleve, Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
(brum...@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu, brum...@imsasun.imsa.edu)
"A computer chattered away to itself for no apparent reason.
This was because reason had in fact gone out to lunch."
-Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Geoff A. Cohen
> Scream that playing mud is supposed to be fun, that it's a game, what-
>ever you like. You're lost in a vacuum and nobody will hear you anyway.
>Those of us who have the taste to like: H. P. Lovecraft, Jules Verne, Julian
>Cthulhu, Paranoia, Nuclear War, Cosmic Encounters, Hacker, Illuminati, need
>I go on? We will watch and wait, looking for something a little more
>progressive than yet another badly formed Dungeons and Dragons clone (serve
>you all right if we kept bugging TSR until they sued ... *chuckle*).
Funny, Kaspelheim is based in large part on Nessus (the location of Wolfe's
_Shadow of the Torturer_), used to be populated by Firvulag and Tanu, and
used the RuneQuest skill/quest system.
But people didn't understand it.
Chuckle.
Geoff Cohen
Congressional Budget Office
Random@Kaspelheim
Jeffrey Stine
>ig...@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Igor Divjak) writes:
>
>
>>Does anyone know what happened to adversary mud at temple U? Hm?
>
>I never knew a more totalitarian game in my years
>of muddling. Perhaps Abaddon finally got his?
>I'm sorry if any of you players lost stuff.. but
>after having a mid-level character of mine wiped
>for -POLTICAL- reasons last year, I can think
>of no reason to pity the game *itself*.
>
Awww, you're just jealous. :)
Of course I have no idea what "politcal reasons" could possibly have existed.
If I remove a character you can bet it has little or nothing to do with
politics. I never ran for public office in my life.
Bigboy's filesystem is expected back monday. Anyone in their right mind
(and sometimes even a few that aren't) is always welcomed. What you do
with that welcome, however, determines your length of stay. Keep in mind
that Adversary only exists at this point to test run some code and serve
as a meeting place and outlet for creation.
-jeff
Jeffrey Stine
>IF(i say IF) adversary is gone for good, i also have to say
>good riddence. Not only did Abbadon totally wipe out the immortal
>file(hence deleting my favorite char.) but he also(IMHO)destroyed
Aww you stopped being nice in order to ingratiate yourself to me? :)
(That's a smiley, I hold no malice or expected anymore)
You can probably consider yourself in good company since Temple Diku had
been around for 2 years without fail (A long time in mud years) and
wuite a few people other than yourself also had immortals.
>Adversary in putting up this new system, I'm sorry Abaddon but if
>you wanna do something like that, just do multiclassing(sp?)
>What you have set up is stupid.
>
Don't you think I am entitled to do with it what I want? It is bitterness
such as this that turns me off of listening to people and doing what *I*
think is right. If it is stupid then time will tell not one person's
tastes and opinions. You might as well say it is stupid to try to write
a new mud since we already have Diku I and II.
>
>*end of flame*
>
Oh come now you can do better than that. It's freezing here in PA, that
wouldn't even toast a marshmallow.
> J.(Christie)Crowley
> CRO...@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU
-jeff (loves a good weenie roast)
Henry McDaniel
First off, Good to see you up and about Dan. Nice work on the MUD too.
I've heard good things. Lets do MUD lunch sometime. Now to the post....
...........
brumleve@iboga (Dan Brumleve) writes:
>cro...@mary.fordham.edu (Monty Python) writes:
>>IF(i say IF) adversary is gone for good, i also have to say
>>good riddence.
> If you don't like it, don't play, or go find another multi-classing
>power-trip MUD of which you so fondly speak of below.
[deleted]
Now, Now. A man has a right to his opinion.... :)
>most part.) "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
[....]
When I first played combat oriented MUDs the major goal amid many
obstacles was immortality. After you make the 'grade' you deserve
something. Do you know what would happen to most of your players if
there were no such prize? I mean if you say, " Ok. Everyone play my combat
mud, when you reach 65 you can collect social security and croak after
a few years." I don't thing 'entirely exclusive' immortality is the key.
I am of the strong opinion that if you give someone a set of rules and they
play by them it is your obligation as a fair administrator to standby those
rules. That means if Abaddon allowed people to wiz for great playing skills
they only got (we assume) what they deserved when they became immortal.
I don't believe its fair to take that away without explaining exactly whats
going on. Myself I'd never give low-level immortals as much power as
standard Diku does anyhow.. but thats another story....
> Am I the only one who's noticed how badly multi-classing and extra
>levels will fuck up a MUD? Game balance is needed much more than ANSI
>gizmos and hundreds of levels, and MUD administrators tend to overlook
>it completely all too often. Multi-classing and 50 levels seem to be
>standard additions to DikuMUDs today, and all of the rationalizations
>I've heard are completely bogus. There also seem to be dozens of
[deleted]
Nope.. I agree multi-class is a bit too much. It basicly means players
who master your game will have no desire to stay there for its uniqueness.
Afterall they'll know every spell and trick of the classes. The mystery
will not be there. Asfar as levels go: I setup a 70 mortal level
system on Stellar, not bad (single class system too, however players
may switch classes every few levels.)
> [....] Temple is
>(was?) one of the few MUDs that avoided all that nonsense in favor
>of a good playing system.
Well I've been to 40-50+ muds ( I often visit muds to catch up on new
developments) and asfar as I know Temple wasn't special in the standard
sense. It had a few 'gizmos' of its own infact.. like boldface messages
to name one. Like you I decided to work on my own mud. My Major beef
with Temple was the poltical moves made by its leader.... *shrug*
....
Marginal Note:
My loathe for Adversary begin after Abaddon begin to persecute me for
my political beliefs. At the time I "played" on Temple I was working
on several mud projects. My character their was just for 'chat' purposes.
I made it a mid-level character (for protection ;) and then just used
it to say 'hi' to folks and etc. After I made a few post on the board
about how dominating I (and other players) felt the game idealolgy to be
The trouble started.
Would you believe that Abaddon aka Hansel (a character he created on
Circle mud in June 92')... ole mister goody himself broadcast my email
address and lewd sayings.... then politely informed me that he had
just wiped my character on Temple? Its true and there were plenty
of witnesses. From that point on I never have said one good word about
Advesary.
Jeffrey Stine
>won't go away quietly. That Abaddon fellow hangs around on net news too much
>for his own good, and so it would seem we're stuck with him.
>
Hey, I need something to do between episodes of the X-men. ;)
And besides I need to rewrite history somehow. Discussion of assert() and
magic components can get quite dreary without a little humor.
-jeff
Jeffrey Stine
>[...]
>rules. That means if Abaddon allowed people to wiz for great playing skills
>they only got (we assume) what they deserved when they became immortal.
>I don't believe its fair to take that away without explaining exactly whats
>going on. Myself I'd never give low-level immortals as much power as
>standard Diku does anyhow.. but thats another story....
>
people making immortal had reached it's maturity. It had nothing to do
with stiffing anyone. In my time I've lost numerous wizards due to games
going bellyup or making changes to different mud code. Never once cried
about it either.
>with Temple was the poltical moves made by its leader.... *shrug*
>....
Silly rabbit.. flasehoods are for kids.
>
>Marginal Note:
>
>My loathe for Adversary begin after Abaddon begin to persecute me for
>my political beliefs. At the time I "played" on Temple I was working
I don't care what anyone's political beliefs are as long as they don't
take up a soapbox and preach them in my home.
>[...]
>Would you believe that Abaddon aka Hansel (a character he created on
>Circle mud in June 92')... ole mister goody himself broadcast my email
>address and lewd sayings.... then politely informed me that he had
>just wiped my character on Temple? Its true and there were plenty
>of witnesses. From that point on I never have said one good word about
>Advesary.
>
Ah well here we see the adversity of confusion and ignorance. I seem
to recall something about a ruckus on Circle, I ignored it and/or laughed
it off as a wanna-be. I stopped playing muds(other than playtesting my own)
nearly 2 years ago. And I certainly wouldn't use a name like Hansel, sheesh.
Gee it would IMPOSSIBLE for someone else to create a character with my name
unless it were really me, right? <--sarcasm. Whoever your persecutor was
it certainly wasn't me.
Y'all need to get your facts straight and avoid the bovine tendency to
think the world is out to get'cha. Nice of you to spread the rumors
though and make such gross and general accusations.
If your character got blasted on Temple it was for some other reason
(..and no mid levels weren't excused from being auto-deleted if they
didn't play often enough...)
Putz.
-jeff
Kamarul Ariffin Baharudin
I'm XKY ... have you heard of me before? So fuck you mudders I'm gonna kill
you all. Muhahahhahahahahahhahahaahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah
Alan Krantz
>
> About damn time too. I had an immortal there before, and I failed
>to understand why everyone felt they had a "right" to their immortal
>character, even if they spent their time socializing and procrastinating
>instead of creating and helping out (as I spent my time doing, for the
>most part.) "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
>being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
>should be a prerequisite).
>
I'm not sure i agree with this. Well, I agree no one has a "right" to
have an immortal but i think immortals can be good for the mud. The real
problem is that a lot of people want/use an immortal to benefit their mortals
quest for power and/or to take revenge on playes they dislike. However,
I feel that other uses of immortals are, in general, good. Things like
communication, helping newbies, monitoring the game for bugs/imbalanced
and so forth...
(Oh another problem with immortals is the raw number of them compared to
mortals as the mud ages - there's nothing wrong with an immortal giving
a mortal one heal a week or so - but when you have several 100 immortals
doing the same thing ....)
> Am I the only one who's noticed how badly multi-classing and extra
>levels will fuck up a MUD? Game balance is needed much more than ANSI
>gizmos and hundreds of levels, and MUD administrators tend to overlook
>it completely all too often. Multi-classing and 50 levels seem to be
>standard additions to DikuMUDs today, and all of the rationalizations
>I've heard are completely bogus.
The problem here isn't multi-classing and extra levels in themselves.
The problem is that they were hacked on to an existing system without
the system being balanced out in the process. I.e, having 30 levels
appeneded to the current 20 levels without adjusting mobs/zones and
gains per level create an imbalanced. Now, don't take me wrong, I'm not
saying i favor extra levels or multi-classing - I'm just saying that i think
you can have a balanced mud if they are done right.
atk
Alan Krantz
> Y'all need to get your facts straight and avoid the bovine tendency to
>think the world is out to get'cha. Nice of you to spread the rumors
>though and make such gross and general accusations.
> If your character got blasted on Temple it was for some other reason
>(..and no mid levels weren't excused from being auto-deleted if they
>didn't play often enough...)
> Putz.
>
>-jeff
Jeff, uh - let me ask you this - did ANY of the gods ever do things that
people would have a 'legit' complaint. I quote legit since in principals
the gods of the muds are allowed to do as they please. However, there
were several gods on Adv and rumors has it that not all of them abided
by the same principals that you do/did/quote and or post. This isn't
meant as a finger pointing post but rather from what i understand a few
(only a very few) of the people complaints have some legitimacy to
them...
atk
Henry McDaniel
>-jeff
OK. Granted there is no way to prove that you (Jeff) did said deeds.
It is for this reason that I wrote what I said under 'Marginal Note.'
This indicates that I'm not trying to indict you for murder 1 or anything.
If indeed you did not screw my character back then, I apologize for
'spreading rumors.' I guess I have to accept your word... I mean you
have no reason to lie (I suppose.)
One more I publish my firm belief that it is every Implementor's obligation
to listen to the problems of their players and provide for their better
entertainment.
Marginal Note:
I've never seen someone use so many post to justify their innocence.
-McDaniel (Stellar)
Dan Brumleve
>brumleve@iboga (Dan Brumleve) writes:
>> "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>>on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>>the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
>[....]
>When I first played combat oriented MUDs the major goal amid many
>obstacles was immortality. After you make the 'grade' you deserve
>something.
Playing should be its own reward, although that's another topic
entirely. My point was that having a lot of playing experience doesn't
qualify you for an administrative position.
> Do you know what would happen to most of your players if
>there were no such prize?
On most MUDs, immortality isn't all that sought-after anyway...
Most players reach 20th level (or 30th, 50th, or 100th as the case may
be) and just stay there.
> I mean if you say, " Ok. Everyone play my combat
>mud, when you reach 65 you can collect social security and croak after
>a few years." I don't thing 'entirely exclusive' immortality is the key.
It depends on the purpose of "immortals"... On Armageddon I'm
probably going to start using other terms to refer to the "gods" once
I finally open it up (projected opening date is May 1st, and I don't think
there will be any postponements at the present building rate.) Perhaps
allowing players to perform the function of "real" gods (instead of rule-
enforcers and socializers), like being able to assist players in certain
ways, would work, but I have yet to see a MUD that implemented that
kind of system successfully.
>I am of the strong opinion that if you give someone a set of rules and they
>play by them it is your obligation as a fair administrator to standby those
>rules.
Obligation? Not by a long shot. The one major flaw with the Diku
system is that it's unbalanced... MUDs start off nicely, with players
advancing higher and having fun. After a while, people get bored and
a lot of carreer-level-20 characters show up, along with an excess
number of immortals. The "economy" is filled up with inflation, and
characters end up having to carry around more and more money. Eventually
the gods get fed up with it all and decide to reset the damn thing, players
and all, usually making a few minor changes intended to keep it from
happening again, but only suffice to delay it by another month or two.
Abaddon periodically "resets" TempleMUD, and there's a clamor on Usenet
about it every time.
>I don't believe its fair to take that away without explaining exactly whats
>going on.
"Fairness" is entirely subjective. A lot of people don't think it's
fair that their immortal characters were deleted, but at the time there
at least a hundred or two immortal characters on the MUD, and something
needed to be done about them. Same with player killing. If I slaughter
20 players, it's certainly unfair from their point of view, but I see
no problem with it. I try to maintain an objective standpoint, which
is why I'm not whining about my immortal character being deleted, as
many other people are right now.
>> Am I the only one who's noticed how badly multi-classing and extra
>>levels will fuck up a MUD? Game balance is needed much more than ANSI
>>gizmos and hundreds of levels, and MUD administrators tend to overlook
>>it completely all too often. Multi-classing and 50 levels seem to be
>>standard additions to DikuMUDs today, and all of the rationalizations
>>I've heard are completely bogus. There also seem to be dozens of
>[deleted]
>Nope.. I agree multi-class is a bit too much. It basicly means players
>who master your game will have no desire to stay there for its uniqueness.
Not only that, but it eliminates a lot of the socialization/role-playing
elements of a MUD, and turns it into a single-player game. Why bring
along a thief if you can pick the lock? Why bring a priest if you can
heal yourself just as well? The main justification for it is "realism",
something I almost always support... The reason I don't like mult-classing
is that it's _not realistic_. A more "realistic" version of multi-classing
would be a system in which there are many classes, and some of them are
"combinations" of the original 4. Armageddon's old class system (it's
about to be completely redone, but not because it didn't work right)
involved 20-some classes, many of which had _some_ skills from one of
the original classes, and _some_ skills from one of the others, and
were balanced so that one of these characters wouldn't have an advantage
over a "single-classed" character. It actually worked fairly well, but
I didn't think the classes had enough originality in them to be
considered seperate classes (rangers, although they had a few unique
skills like "hunt", "trap", "listen", etc., were still refered to as
fighter/clerics).
> Asfar as levels go: I setup a 70 mortal level
>system on Stellar, not bad (single class system too, however players
>may switch classes every few levels.)
My vehemence toward extra level systems is only really directed
at those in which the "top" level characters are moe powerful than
20th level characters in DikuMUD (which are a bit too powerful anyway,
IMHO).
>> Temple is
>>(was?) one of the few MUDs that avoided all that nonsense in favor
>>of a good playing system.
>Well I've been to 40-50+ muds ( I often visit muds to catch up on new
>developments) and asfar as I know Temple wasn't special in the standard
>sense.
No, it isn't special (switching to present tense after reading
Abaddon's most recent posting)... That's exactly why it's such a good
system. Abaddon has added about as many modifications as most other
MUDs, but he's done them much more slowly... The difference is that
just about every modification he's made to it has been an _intelligent_
modification, not more levels to make the players more powerful or
anything as silly as a "knee" or "about the legs" wear-position (once
I saw a player wearing two glowing "bronze knee-protectors" on another
MUD).
> It had a few 'gizmos' of its own infact.. like boldface messages
>to name one.
"Gizmos" are only bad if people work on them at the expense of
more important things. I added an "infobar" to Armageddon, as well
as some ANSI to make the intro-screen more flashy, but that wasn't until
I'd done lots of work on making the game more playable.
--
_______________________________________________________________
Dan Brumleve, Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
(brum...@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu, brum...@imsasun.imsa.edu)
"A computer chattered away to itself for no apparent reason.
Dan Brumleve
>In article <C47HI...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brumleve@iboga (Dan Brumleve) writes:
>>
>> About damn time too. I had an immortal there before, and I failed
>>to understand why everyone felt they had a "right" to their immortal
>>character, even if they spent their time socializing and procrastinating
>>instead of creating and helping out (as I spent my time doing, for the
>>most part.) "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>>on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>>the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
>>being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
>>should be a prerequisite).
>>
>I'm not sure i agree with this. Well, I agree no one has a "right" to
>have an immortal but i think immortals can be good for the mud.
Immortals are certainly good for the MUD... But they should be
appointed, or maybe required to send in an application. Playing skill
alone shouldn't qualify a player for a "god" position.
> The real
>problem is that a lot of people want/use an immortal to benefit their mortals
>quest for power and/or to take revenge on playes they dislike.
Well, that can usually be regulated fairly easily, with logs of
immortal activities and well-defined rules.
> However,
>I feel that other uses of immortals are, in general, good. Things like
>communication, helping newbies, monitoring the game for bugs/imbalanced
>and so forth...
Those are good purposes for immortals, but should a player's monster-
bashing ability make him eligible for that opsition?
>(Oh another problem with immortals is the raw number of them compared to
>mortals as the mud ages - there's nothing wrong with an immortal giving
>a mortal one heal a week or so - but when you have several 100 immortals
>doing the same thing ....)
When there are a small number of immortals, "cheating" can have
a positive effect on the game if it's regulated well and there's a
minimal amount of favoritism.
>> Am I the only one who's noticed how badly multi-classing and extra
>>levels will fuck up a MUD? Game balance is needed much more than ANSI
>>gizmos and hundreds of levels, and MUD administrators tend to overlook
>>it completely all too often. Multi-classing and 50 levels seem to be
>>standard additions to DikuMUDs today, and all of the rationalizations
>>I've heard are completely bogus.
>The problem here isn't multi-classing and extra levels in themselves.
>The problem is that they were hacked on to an existing system without
>the system being balanced out in the process.
True... But there's no real reason to add extra levels if the system
is just going to be recalibrated anyway. If that was the case, it would
probably be simpler to just use a floating-point variable for a character's
level, rather than an integer. ;-)
I don't agree with you on multi-classing, because I've never seen
a MUD where it's been added without any detrimental effects. I like
systems like Epic's, however, since it doesn't give any player an
advantage over another (_everyone_ is multi-classed).
Now, don't take me wrong, I'm not
>saying i favor extra levels or multi-classing - I'm just saying that i think
>you can have a balanced mud if they are done right.
>atk
--
Scarrow
>One more I publish my firm belief that it is every Implementor's obligation
>to listen to the problems of their players and provide for their better
>entertainment.
So, it becomes an obligation to provide your free service for people who, if
you don't cater to their every whim, get upset and throw tantrums and god
knows what else? I think not. The obligation of the implementor is to, in
his or her mind, make the game the best game it can be in his or her opinion.
If I was in Abaddon's shoes, you can believe that a lot of the changes made
for the sole benefit of the whining, complaining, cheating mortals would
never have been made. As for the rest of you, if you want the players to
simply advance and feel good about themselves, why not just give them free
levels, about 2 xps to each level, etc.? I'll tell you why. Because it's a
game, and although it should be fun it should also be challenging. There's
nothing wrong with adjusting the balance so that the game becomes more
challenging. Your players don't have to feel happy with every decision you,
as implementor, make.
In my experience, Abaddon has listened until slapped with so much horse-
shit, accusations and implied threats that he just gave up trying to talk
about it. I know my own patience is a lot thinner. Just because you're
willing to listen to reasonable people voice reasonable objections does not
imply you need to listen to unreasonable people voicing unreasonable
objections.
I'm not going to make Abaddon out as a paragon of virtue, and certainly
not myself. The point is that so many of you out there pointing fingers are
pointing them in the wrong damned direction.
>Marginal Note:
>I've never seen someone use so many post to justify their innocence.
Well, firstly, I've never seen so many blatantly unfounded accusations
before. If others also step up to defend Abaddon, perhaps you can see that
there's a reason. I wouldn't if I didn't feel it was worth it. I have no
immortals on anything Mr. Stine currently runs ... when Adversary is up, I've
mostly relegated my time to reading board messages. The fact is that he
seems to draw fire from the rest of the Diku community far too often. Why?
Probably because he doesn't bow and grovel before the whim of every player
who comes along.
Jeffrey Stine
>
>Jeff, uh - let me ask you this - did ANY of the gods ever do things that
>people would have a 'legit' complaint. I quote legit since in principals
>the gods of the muds are allowed to do as they please. However, there
>were several gods on Adv and rumors has it that not all of them abided
>by the same principals that you do/did/quote and or post. This isn't
>meant as a finger pointing post but rather from what i understand a few
>(only a very few) of the people complaints have some legitimacy to
>them...
>
>atk
>
If you mean to say did anyone at Temple other than myself do anything
to offend or otherwise persecute players, the answer is an unqualified yes.
Doesn't mean they aren't human or undeserving of respect. The cases
remained fairly isolated for the most part. However that is neither
here nor there. I was responsible or no one was. Many more of the
garden variety immortals bore guilt than anyone higher up and they paid
the price more often.
A great presumption is always made that if something goes wrong or someone
believes they were interfered with or persecuted, that it just HAD to
be a God. You may think I was cruel, vindictive or played politics
all you like, just believe me when I tell you no one was in a better
position to know than I and I have no reason to lie about these things.
This isn't a defense, but rather is by way an explanation of all these
myths that suddenly seem to have taken on a life of thier own and to put
this stupidity to rest.
Less emphasis should be placed on the past at this point.
-jeff
Jeffrey Stine
>
>OK. Granted there is no way to prove that you (Jeff) did said deeds.
So kind of you to admit this. You almost make it sound as if there
exists some proif somewhere.. just keep believing.
>It is for this reason that I wrote what I said under 'Marginal Note.'
>This indicates that I'm not trying to indict you for murder 1 or anything.
Sort of like saying: "You know that Clint Eastwood is a great actor, but
damn you know what? I heard he's gay!"
You may qualify a statement like that all you want, but it irresponsible
and slanderous.
>If indeed you did not screw my character back then, I apologize for
>'spreading rumors.' I guess I have to accept your word... I mean you
>have no reason to lie (I suppose.)
>
Oh gee I guess I should accept this apology .. I mean you have no reason
to be insincere (I suppose.)
>One more I publish my firm belief that it is every Implementor's obligation
>to listen to the problems of their players and provide for their better
>entertainment.
>
This is not an obligation. This is something in their best interest
perhaps if they desire adulation, but by no means is anyone required to.
I listen to people and filter most of it in effort to maintain a sense
of normalcy. This is the same ludicrous implied statement that I have
lambasted others for, ie: "I listen to people (others don't)."
You or anyone else do not have the patent on a sympathetic ear.
Mine may be a bit less so, after all my enthusiasm has waned, but I think
I know bullshit when I hear it.
( I plead that I am often too busy anyway - truth )
>Marginal Note:
>
>I've never seen someone use so many post to justify their innocence.
Bombastic to say the least. INNOCENCE is not something that requires
justifying. You either are or aren't. Facts are more preferable to hear
than simple hearsay and speculation.
"Excuse me your Honor, I didn't mean to be innocent but I wasn't home
at the time."
>
>
>-McDaniel (Stellar)
Eat all you want I can throw a few more on the fire. :)
-jeff
Jeffrey Stine
[......]
>Abaddon periodically "resets" TempleMUD, and there's a clamor on Usenet
>about it every time.
>
other mud. The only "reseting" I ever did was to realine some stats
on some items to keep things challenging. I never did this often and
don't recall any clamor here about it.
I don't think it is good to go around dumping the database "periodically"
and although there were some 2 or 3 glitches in its lifetime, where some
player data was lost, the playerfile never lost continuity.
>> It had a few 'gizmos' of its own infact.. like boldface messages
>>to name one.
>
> "Gizmos" are only bad if people work on them at the expense of
>more important things. I added an "infobar" to Armageddon, as well
>as some ANSI to make the intro-screen more flashy, but that wasn't until
>I'd done lots of work on making the game more playable.
>
These are not "gizmos". At least not in my opinion. Anything that
improves readability goes toward basic server improvement. A gizmo
would be a (only) semi-useful command or a fanciful way of presenting
game mechanics. A good example of a gizmo at Temple was the GSEND
command. :)
-jeff
Dan Brumleve
>In article <C49Es...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brumleve@iboga (Dan Brumleve) writes:
>[......]
>>Abaddon periodically "resets" TempleMUD, and there's a clamor on Usenet
>>about it every time.
>>
> This is not true on both counts. you must have me confused with some
>other mud. The only "reseting" I ever did was to realine some stats
>on some items to keep things challenging. I never did this often and
>don't recall any clamor here about it.
You haven't "reset" the MUD... Maybe "washed" would be a better
word. ;-) On a few seperate occaisions you've deleted handfuls of level
20 characters, and once you got rid of around half the immortals. By
a clamor I meant a few people whining about their character being deleted,
and a few threads like this one in response. Sorry to be unclear...
I brought that up to give an example of DikuMUDs' inherent instability.
Keeping everything "balanced" is a bit of a juggling act... When
players become too powerful, it's necessary to do _something_ about it,
be it deleting all their equipment, halving their money, or simply
destroying them all... Otherwise the game becomes too easy and loses
much of its appeal.
>>> It had a few 'gizmos' of its own infact.. like boldface messages
>>>to name one.
>>
>> "Gizmos" are only bad if people work on them at the expense of
>>more important things. I added an "infobar" to Armageddon, as well
>>as some ANSI to make the intro-screen more flashy, but that wasn't until
>>I'd done lots of work on making the game more playable.
> These are not "gizmos". At least not in my opinion. Anything that
>improves readability goes toward basic server improvement. A gizmo
>would be a (only) semi-useful command or a fanciful way of presenting
>game mechanics. A good example of a gizmo at Temple was the GSEND
>command. :)
Improving readability is good (for instance, bold/colored victim
names in combat), but ANSI is used too often in silly features (like
putting all 'tell's in green, or making immortals' names always
displayed in blinking text.)
>-jeff
Axl
>
> I don't agree with you on multi-classing, because I've never seen
>a MUD where it's been added without any detrimental effects. I like
>systems like Epic's, however, since it doesn't give any player an
>advantage over another (_everyone_ is multi-classed).
>
kindof multi-classing. You could bribe the guildguard of a guild
other than your own to let you past, into the master's room. Once
there, you could practice anything that they had to offer, but the
cost was alot of gold and alot of xp. Seemed to work out fairly well.
--
-Axl @)-->--- /\ /\ j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu
"Its a critical solution, \ / jher...@nyx.cs.du.edu
and the East Coast got the blues.\/ w....@lambada.oit.unc.edu
Its a mass of confusion, like the lies they sell to you."-W. Axl Rose
Henry McDaniel
>In article <1oioke...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>>
>>OK. Granted there is no way to prove that you (Jeff) did said deeds.
> So kind of you to admit this. You almost make it sound as if there
>exists some proif somewhere.. just keep believing.
[ deleted... ]
>-jeff
Jeeeez. You took my message the wrong way ;) It was not my intention
to start a flame war, but rather state that I'll no longer be spreading
unprovable rumors about you. So I added a little sarcasim ... as I said,
jeeeez! Lest you read this the wrong way I'll put it this way:
Whatever I thought happened is in the past and there's no point mulling
over it. After I read your response to my first 'Marginal note' I decided
to forget the incident.
(now moving on...)
There is something which I think can take some further discussion.
That being my firm belief in your obligation to those that play your game.
And I'm talking to all game imps here.. not just "Mr. Jeff" (as someone said.)
After coding a mud for a year I often feel it my right to overlook others
opinions in certain matters (lets face it running a MUD takes tough
decision making.) But I also constantly remind myself that those under
me cannot appreciate fully what I must go through forthem (ie. coding
long hours, debugging longer hours, and testing even more hours.) Because
I have decided to let people play my game pubicly... there must be some
code of ethics to abide by. Now everyone who has read MUD FAQ's thinks
any God can do whatever they please with any player. I tell you that the
title of 'Implementor', 'God' or 'Wizard' is tarnished when one abuses
their authority and the latter does not define the former.
A policeman has a title - not a mandate to kill innocent people. Likewise
a God or Wizard has a title - not a mandate to do as they please. I propose
that neither you or I should define our titles based on what we wish to do.
But rather that we should 'fill' the title which best describes our role.
This implies that a game admin who loves to kill newbies whenever he's on
should be called the PK Lord or something - but NOT the God or any such
title.
True, "I code and maintain therefore I'm the Implementor." But I believe
that we must look at our roles in light of established norms. Par example,
It is not normal for a game admin to slay innocent players for instance,
therfore it would not be proper to call yourself by normal titles. This
obviously is subjective.... however we live each in his/her MUD world
-not an island unto itself- but as members of the MUD community. The MUD
community which I might point out reads net news such as this post. There
is more to Muddling then domination or power grabbing and the game builders
who fail to recognize that aren't building a game at all, but a monument
to their own egos.
In short, it is every true Implemntors obligation to support the norms
of MUD ethics as defined by what players have found to be helpful on games
designed for similar purposes. I never said a game implementor has to
_DO_ what players say... I said it is the imp's responsibility atleast to
consider what players say -and- let players know this.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think many of the player-god relations problems on Adversary (for instance)
could have been avoided had its Chief Deputy (hows that for a title?) let
them know how much he wished to please them and was trying to 'hear their
concerns.' Now later he could have done whatever he wanted to.. (heck
as I said someone must make tough decisons) But there would not be an air
of distrust, anger and potential terrorism (?) lurking about.
I'd like to discuss MUD ethics myself... perhaps all of this should be
Russ Taylor
: Yooo Mudders!, I am the most powerful and fierceful of you all
: I'm XKY ... have you heard of me before? So fuck you mudders I'm gonna kill
: you all. Muhahahhahahahahahhahahaahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah
Sounds like his parents molested him as a child.
--
*---------------------------------------------*
* From the often troubled mind of Russ Taylor *
* rta...@ursula.uoregon.edu @cie.uoregon.edu *
*---------------------------------------------*
Jeffrey Stine
>
>That being my firm belief in your obligation to those that play your game.
>[...] But I also constantly remind myself that those under
>me cannot appreciate fully what I must go through forthem (ie. coding
>long hours, debugging longer hours, and testing even more hours.)
Well I see. WE are "obligated", but others are entitled to not fully
appreciate us? Sounds like a one way street to me. Before you try to
uphold me to some imagined obligation you better be able to fully appreciate
what I must go through to bring you a recreational diversion.
There has to be mutual respect that transcends minor disagreements on
game balance, mechanics and priviledges. Otherwise no one is "obligated"
to do anything.
>A policeman has a title - not a mandate to kill innocent people.
>[...]
Not so fast. A policeman is entitled to use reasonable force in order
to control a situation and is even entitled to use deadly force in a
life-threatening situation. He is not required to make judgements of
guilt or innocence. Be careful of your analogies.
>[...]
>that we must look at our roles in light of established norms. Par example,
>It is not normal for a game admin to slay innocent players for instance,
>therfore it would not be proper to call yourself by normal titles. This
But it IS normal for this to occur. I've known it to happen from the
beginning of my mud days. It isn't usually pathological insanity either.
Now if you want to say it isn't proper to do so without some explanation,
then go right ahead. I could find myself agreeing with that. But this
vague generalization stuff is for the birds.
>obviously is subjective.... however we live each in his/her MUD world
>-not an island unto itself- but as members of the MUD community. The MUD
>community which I might point out reads net news such as this post. There
>is more to Muddling then domination or power grabbing and the game builders
>who fail to recognize that aren't building a game at all, but a monument
>to their own egos.
Ah yes.. egos. What would we do without them. I submit to you that
anyone running a mud without an ego the size of New York is perhaps
not worth thier salt. And if they say they don't have an ego that size
then they are deluding themselves, because it takes one near that size
to want to run one in the first place. SO who needs a monument.
MY ego is its own monument and I laugh about it. There is no power to that.
Power is not something you can grab. It must be given away. You either
have it or you don't. The only ones looking for that mythical power are
the underlings.
And I might as well throw this tired old one in: You confuse a game with
reality...etc etc
>
>designed for similar purposes. I never said a game implementor has to
>_DO_ what players say... I said it is the imp's responsibility atleast to
>consider what players say -and- let players know this.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does common sense need to be spoken? This is why I scoff at people
posting and saying they "listen" to the players.
>I think many of the player-god relations problems on Adversary (for instance)
>could have been avoided had its Chief Deputy (hows that for a title?) let
Nope.. I was already given the title Mr. Innovation :)
>them know how much he wished to please them and was trying to 'hear their
>concerns.' Now later he could have done whatever he wanted to.. (heck
>as I said someone must make tough decisons) But there would not be an air
>of distrust, anger and potential terrorism (?) lurking about.
>
This is is all imagined and I can't help people if they are paranoid.
They have to trust me to do what is right. It would be interesting to
know what "concerns" you think I ignored. And keep in mind that for
every concern another person has a conflicting one. You can't expect
to get immediate visible results.
"Many of the player-god relations problems on Adversary(Temple)" were the
result of the player's ignorance (lack of information) not mine. In my
experience as both player and admin this has always been the case.
Certainly better communication from the top down would be desired, but
there are some things I feel there is either no need or perhaps time to
explain.
I don't find this topic particularly interesting, because it has gone
round and round for so long that everyone sounds like a stuck record.
Start a new thread and address very specific concerns on which a concensus
might be reached.
-jeff
Herbert Kremser
> About damn time too. I had an immortal there before, and I failed
> to understand why everyone felt they had a "right" to their immortal
> character, even if they spent their time socializing and procrastinating
> instead of creating and helping out (as I spent my time doing, for the
> most part.) "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
> on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
> the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
> being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
> should be a prerequisite).
> _______________________________________________________________
> Dan Brumleve, Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
> (brum...@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu, brum...@imsasun.imsa.edu)
Hmmmm I didn't play so much muds, especially not this mud you all are talking
about, but I never found a Diku-mud where other people than the Implementors
was able to program a thing. Ok you are free to send areas, special procs etc.
as suggestions for the Imps, but for this you haven't to be IMMORTAL.
On the mud where I frequently play you can get create permission if you are
IMM or higher, but this isn't a must. And I don't know of any Diku-Mud
with online programming :( Are you sure you are not talking of LP-mud
in this Diku-mud group?
On Dikus one of the main tasks is to get Immortal, if you have proved
yourself to be a good fighter etc. via earning enough xp's. You then have
some new commands to know your better and explore and have fun without
risk, but as IMM you have really not great power compared to gods etc.
So beeing an IMM IMHO should be based on playing ability, altough sometimes
you have to delete some or all of the immortals. (new game system, too much
Immortals, deleting some never playing chars or some who "help" others too
much etc.)
Herbert
Axl
>Kamarul Ariffin Baharudin (ka...@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:
>: Yooo Mudders!, I am the most powerful and fierceful of you all
>: I'm XKY ... have you heard of me before? So fuck you mudders I'm gonna kill
>: you all. Muhahahhahahahahahhahahaahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah
>
>Sounds like his parents molested him as a child.
>
-axl
Steven Jenkins
>
> If you mean to say did anyone at Temple other than myself do anything
>to offend or otherwise persecute players, the answer is an unqualified yes.
>Doesn't mean they aren't human or undeserving of respect. The cases
>remained fairly isolated for the most part. However that is neither
>here nor there. I was responsible or no one was. Many more of the
>garden variety immortals bore guilt than anyone higher up and they paid
>the price more often.
> A great presumption is always made that if something goes wrong or someone
>believes they were interfered with or persecuted, that it just HAD to
>be a God. You may think I was cruel, vindictive or played politics
>all you like, just believe me when I tell you no one was in a better
>position to know than I and I have no reason to lie about these things.
>This isn't a defense, but rather is by way an explanation of all these
>myths that suddenly seem to have taken on a life of thier own and to put
>this stupidity to rest.
>Less emphasis should be placed on the past at this point.
>
>-jeff
>
As Musashi on Adversary, I can vouch that the immortals there were quite...
petty. Yeah, and I can name names if you really like. The gods as a whole
were pretty fair, but the immortals were a pain (Notice that I was immortal,
too :)). I wouldn't blame Abaddon if he decided that upon reaching level 21,
a character got his/her name put on the immortal list, but that the character
was then immediately retired; ie, no more playing with that character unless
deleted. If the player wanted to work as a god, then he/she could ask abaddon.
Before you ask, yes, I'm sure I've broken as many rules as so-and-so, and, no,
I don't speak for anyone else.
Steven Jenkins
Steven Jenkins
has asked several times for players to use it, as well as sometimes post to
the bulletin board. Why does he have to implement every single idea? Sheesh..
Steven Jenkins
Christopher R. Boggs
>IMM or higher, but this isn't a must. And I don't know of any Diku-Mud
>with online programming :( Are you sure you are not talking of LP-mud
>in this Diku-mud group?
I have used Online Creation (OC) code on at least 4 Dikus. Adversary,
Armageddon, Empire, and the mud I Co-Imp..Arctic. All 4 are different in
major ways. All 4 are quite effective. All 4 are better than any LP trash I
have ever witnessed.
-Chris
--
[]==========================================================================[]
| Christopher R. Boggs, MGT Major, Georgia Institute of Technology |
| "Death is life's way of telling you that you've been fired." -Anon |
[]==========================================================================[]
Wolfe
-XKY ?
Is that a derivitive of the KY sex jel ?
Little boy, I've got chars. and friends that will 'fuck' you so hard
you won't sit for a week.
-Wolfe
Eric L. Pilcher
>> About damn time too. I had an immortal there before, and I failed
>> to understand why everyone felt they had a "right" to their immortal
>> character, even if they spent their time socializing and procrastinating
>> instead of creating and helping out (as I spent my time doing, for the
>> most part.)
Nah, way I see it, if a player works hard to get get through all the Muds
levels (such as I have done) they deserve the right to be Immortal. However,
abilities at that point should be limited to probably just 'wizhelp' 'at'
'goto' 'snowball' and 'wizinvis'. Once they've proven themleves to be
USEFUL, then yes, they should get promoted accordingly.
>> "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>> on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>> the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
>> being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
>> should be a prerequisite).
No, no, no! Earning an immortal should be based on playing expertise.
ADVANCING as an immortal should be based on creating/programming ability
AND coming up with creative ideas. (Someone could write with perfect
mechanics but if they lack ideas they aren't of much use.)
Then Herbert wrote:
>On Dikus one of the main tasks is to get Immortal, if you have proved
>yourself to be a good fighter etc. via earning enough xp's. You then have
>some new commands to know your better and explore and have fun without
>risk, but as IMM you have really not great power compared to gods etc.
Exactly!!!! In fact, dare I say it but I really believe that players
who have worked their way up to immortal status, rather than just having it
handed to them, make better Immortals!!!!! Why? Becuase they know the
game better, they've explored the areas, they've fought the mobs, they've
used the objects, they've solved the puzzles, and they remember what it
is like to be a player. Granted, most immortals have mortal players (and
this is generally a good thing.)
BTW, if anyone has the Draconian Tower in their mud (as I recall this area
is public domain) and hasn't already fixed the .wld file for it, I have
a working copy (area was fine except the area east of the Nursery was
garbled up). The reason I posted about that in this article is to
illistrate that I realized there was a problem with this area as a MORTAL,
and then was allowed to fix it as an IMMORTAL. To my knowledge, none of
the Implementors new the area was bugged until I mentioned it to them.
-Rasta @ Kallisti (tiegan.cs.orst.edu or 128.193.32.20 4000)
--
-Eric L. Pilcher gt7...@prism.gatech.edu
Your next article key explodes in the face of the Article.| "I'm in trouble
The Article is dead! R.I.P. | for the things I
You hear a horrible cry of agony from the Article. | havn't got to yet."
DAB...@psuvm.psu.edu
I've played Adversary since oh about the second week it was up and running.
I have never done any of the following:
-cried unfair to the gods
-complained about the various rule changes
+note: many of these changes were to appease players(I'm pretty sure anyway)
-cried when my character's were deleted (I can name for or 5 mid to high level)
-complained when implemetations made the game harder
It seems to me that a content player would want the constant challange of a
well written and well implemented mud. My opinion is that Adversary is a well
maintained mud. I'm content to play there. I liked it so much I deleted my
immort so I could go through again with the same (although rerolled)
character. I do believe that since Jeff puts about 99.50%(slightly exaggerated)
of the work into the mud, he should have the say about what goes into it. Now,
I don't want to exclude those that have contributed (i.e. DD(thanks for your
efforts all of you)) but I think Jeff has invested too much time to listen to
grumblings and complaints about things that don't REALLY matter. I'm sure that
if Jeff didn't derive some form of enjoyment from administrating the mud, he
just wouldn't do it. Then we'd be stuck. The game(I stress GAME) was, like all
games, developed for the enjoment for all involved in it. That includes imple-
mentors. Do you think that Jeff, or any other implementer, likes to be constant
ly bombarded by complaints? Maybe players could be more appreciative about what
has been HANDED them. Implemetors do us a service. They don't intentionally
try to screw you over. They just do what seems good from thier perspective.
Anyway, Jeff, you've done a good job. Infinately better than I could have.
DEN
I don't expect others to be perfect. Don't expect me to be.
login
>That being my firm belief in your obligation to those that play your game.
[...]
>I have decided to let people play my game pubicly... there must be some
>code of ethics to abide by.
[...]
>In short, it is every true Implemntors obligation to support the norms
>of MUD ethics as defined by what players have found to be helpful on games
>designed for similar purposes.
[...]
All bullshit. As I had occasion to point out to an obnoxious player on
Adversary many moons ago...everyone but the implementor(s) is a GUEST of
the mud. Guests don't make rules or specify "norms." They have one
inalienable right...to stop being a guest. There are dozens upon dozens
of Diku's out there...vote with your feet (hmm...with your keyboard? ;).
On the other hand, if you as an implementor want to abide by some specific
code of conduct, more power to you. If it is one that players like, then
they will play your game.
Actually, you also have another right. You can offer your ideas about mud
ethics all you want and try to convince people not to play on muds that
don't follow them. What a fun time.
Berek Ironthew, Paladin King
--
**************************************************************************
* "Rub her feet." -- L.L. * Jeffrey S. Clary *
* * cl...@iastate.edu *
**************************************************************************
Scarrow
>Nah, way I see it, if a player works hard to get get through all the Muds
>levels (such as I have done) they deserve the right to be Immortal. However,
>abilities at that point should be limited to probably just 'wizhelp' 'at'
>'goto' 'snowball' and 'wizinvis'. Once they've proven themleves to be
>USEFUL, then yes, they should get promoted accordingly.
Heh, from what I've seen of Kalliste so far, the main point seems to be
allowing them to get immortal without working for it. I've been playing there
the last few days to take a look around, and I must say, it's been a while
since I've seen such an out of wack balance.
Player killing isn't forbidden, but it quite obviously isn't encouraged
either. I've been warned by some mortals already that the gods take killing
in a bad light (gee, so good there's some documentation describing the fact
that killing is not overly approved of ... then again, I should've guessed
when I saw the mages had "portal" (read: go anywhere in the mud where there's
a person or mobile already there) and "wizard eye" (read: at look for non-
immortals).
Then there's "power heal" which reads something like:
--
POWER HEAL
Usage : cast 'power heal' <victim>
Accumulative: =
Duration : Instantaneous
Level : Level 22 cleric.
This spell is the surpreme healer spell a cleric can handle.
Effect is 100+(3*level+10) and it cures all other illness in the world.
See Also: HEAL
--
Gosh, I wonder if it even cures the common cold. I bet the medical community
would like to learn this one ...
>>> "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>>> on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>>> the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
>>> being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
>>> should be a prerequisite).
>No, no, no! Earning an immortal should be based on playing expertise.
>ADVANCING as an immortal should be based on creating/programming ability
>AND coming up with creative ideas. (Someone could write with perfect
>mechanics but if they lack ideas they aren't of much use.)
Heh. Player expertise. I like that one. I arrived for my first Kalliste
session and had the following happen to me: transed twice to nowhere in
particular, transed into hell (very effective hell, I recalled out), had
small demons loaded all around me, had a set of equipment loaded up before
me and had a sack of something or other loaded up before me. All
compliments of Slaymatic, I believe. I let him keep his toys and still
managed to hit 8th level in about three hours. From what I saw of a low
level fighter with ridiculous stuff, he was jumping about twice as fast as
me. Player expertise? I'm afraid you have no qualifications to be debating
player expertise.
>Then Herbert wrote:
>>On Dikus one of the main tasks is to get Immortal, if you have proved
>>yourself to be a good fighter etc. via earning enough xp's. You then have
>>some new commands to know your better and explore and have fun without
>>risk, but as IMM you have really not great power compared to gods etc.
>
>Exactly!!!! In fact, dare I say it but I really believe that players
>who have worked their way up to immortal status, rather than just having it
>handed to them, make better Immortals!!!!! Why? Becuase they know the
>game better, they've explored the areas, they've fought the mobs, they've
>used the objects, they've solved the puzzles, and they remember what it
>is like to be a player. Granted, most immortals have mortal players (and
>this is generally a good thing.)
I believe your upper echelon should be encouraged to play the game, to
develop some understanding of how it works. However, I know of people who can
be made immortal and who will handle the responsibility correctly. I've seen
far too many players who, after advancing to immortal, only think about
helping themselves. On the other hand, any immortal who does so should be out
on his or her proverbial ears.
>-Rasta @ Kallisti (tiegan.cs.orst.edu or 128.193.32.20 4000)
>--
>-Eric L. Pilcher gt7...@prism.gatech.edu
Oh, I'll probably continue to play Kallisti for a while. There are a few
people I want to kill, and unless the immortals there stop me, I'll continue
to give it the ol' Diku try. However, the concept of balance doesn't even
begin to enter into things.
Dan Brumleve
>Dan Brumleve (brumleve@iboga) wrote:
>> About damn time too. I had an immortal there before, and I failed
>> to understand why everyone felt they had a "right" to their immortal
>> character, even if they spent their time socializing and procrastinating
>> instead of creating and helping out (as I spent my time doing, for the
>> most part.) "Earning" an immortal character should be entirely based
>> on creating/programming ability (or whatever services are needed on
>> the MUD), not on playing expertise, an attribute almost irrelevant to
>> being an immortal (although knowing at least a little bit about playing
>> should be a prerequisite).
>> _______________________________________________________________
>> Dan Brumleve, Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
>> (brum...@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu, brum...@imsasun.imsa.edu)
>Hmmmm I didn't play so much muds, especially not this mud you all are talking
>about, but I never found a Diku-mud where other people than the Implementors
>was able to program a thing. Ok you are free to send areas, special procs etc.
>as suggestions for the Imps, but for this you haven't to be IMMORTAL.
>On the mud where I frequently play you can get create permission if you are
>IMM or higher, but this isn't a must. And I don't know of any Diku-Mud
>with online programming :( Are you sure you are not talking of LP-mud
>in this Diku-mud group?
There are quite a few Dikus with "online programming"... Adversary,
Arctic, Armageddon, HypeNet, SillyMUD, and probably quite a few more of
which I'm not aware, all have some sort of online creation system.
Armageddon is the only Diku I know of with an actual programming language,
although it's quite a pitiful one (I'm attempting to improve it...
Right now it's only good for relatively simple special procedures.)
>On Dikus one of the main tasks is to get Immortal, if you have proved
>yourself to be a good fighter etc. via earning enough xp's. You then have
>some new commands to know your better and explore and have fun without
>risk, but as IMM you have really not great power compared to gods etc.
The immortal "tasks" which should not depend on playing ability
are creation, programming, or whatever other services your MUD requires.
Exploring and having fun aren't exactly "duties".
>So beeing an IMM IMHO should be based on playing ability, altough sometimes
>you have to delete some or all of the immortals. (new game system, too much
>Immortals, deleting some never playing chars or some who "help" others too
>much etc.)
If immortals just "explore and have fun", it might as well depend on
playing ability as much as anything else. My point was that "creating
and programming" are duties that shouldn't be given to players with
the best dragon-hacking ability, but rather to people who are experienced
in doing them.
>Herbert
Alan Krantz
>kre...@fm11hp01.tu-graz.ac.at (Herbert Kremser) writes:
>
>>Dan Brumleve (brumleve@iboga) wrote:
>
>
>>Hmmmm I didn't play so much muds, especially not this mud you all are talking
>>about, but I never found a Diku-mud where other people than the Implementors
>>was able to program a thing. Ok you are free to send areas, special procs etc.
>>as suggestions for the Imps, but for this you haven't to be IMMORTAL.
>
>>On the mud where I frequently play you can get create permission if you are
>>IMM or higher, but this isn't a must. And I don't know of any Diku-Mud
>>with online programming :( Are you sure you are not talking of LP-mud
>>in this Diku-mud group?
>
> There are quite a few Dikus with "online programming"... Adversary,
>Arctic, Armageddon, HypeNet, SillyMUD, and probably quite a few more of
>which I'm not aware, all have some sort of online creation system.
>Armageddon is the only Diku I know of with an actual programming language,
>although it's quite a pitiful one (I'm attempting to improve it...
>Right now it's only good for relatively simple special procedures.)
>
I took the original poster comment about on-line programming to mean
coding and not creation. With respect to this there is a mud called
mume that has a built in interpreter. I only saw a brief view of it
(Manwe was kind enough to show it to me one afternoon). It looked a
little like forth (stack oriented). While I didn't see the full language
the mobiles he showed me seem to indicate it was fairly advanced.
atk
Eric L. Pilcher
>Heh, from what I've seen of Kalliste so far, the main point seems to be
>allowing them to get immortal without working for it. I've been playing there
>the last few days to take a look around, and I must say, it's been a while
>since I've seen such an out of wack balance.
Excuse me! For you information (since you obviously lack it) Kallisti has
a grand total of 23 Immortals. Those of us that have worked are way up to
that statue did in fact have to work for it! (Read: Gim, Gunslinger,
RobinHood, myself and others) It is true that many of the immortals got
thier stature when their were fewer levels to go through, however, the
average player on Kallisti seems to prefer keeping mortal status for some
reason. (Which I think is a good thing.) Most of the immortals are not
even active ones but have that stature becuase they are a sys-admin for
tiegan or something of that nature. Gee, Scarrow, to see just the HUGE
numbers of Kallisti Gods, all had you had to do was type 'wizlist' or
were you too newbile to figgure that out, twit!
> Player killing isn't forbidden, but it quite obviously isn't encouraged
>either. I've been warned by some mortals already that the gods take killing
>in a bad light (gee, so good there's some documentation describing the fact
>that killing is not overly approved of ... then again, I should've guessed
>when I saw the mages had "portal" (read: go anywhere in the mud where there's
>a person or mobile already there) and "wizard eye" (read: at look for non-
>immortals).
Read: Is not encouraged if there is no real reason behind it. In general
penis waving power trippers who are out to prove the can sure jit by killing
players 10 levels below themselves are not tollerated. However, I'll
openly encourage the PKing of asshole scum.
Now, before you go and slam on Kallisti's spells and the like get your
damn facts straight. First of all, you can't portal or wizard eye to a
room that is flagged PRIVATE. Meaning that in quest like areas a mage
can get close to the objective, but not right at it. Areas are set up
where the most popular or most powerful mobs cannot be portaled to.
> Then there's "power heal" which reads something like:
>
>--
>POWER HEAL
>Usage : cast 'power heal' <victim>
>Accumulative: =
>Duration : Instantaneous
>Level : Level 22 cleric.
>
>This spell is the surpreme healer spell a cleric can handle.
>Effect is 100+(3*level+10) and it cures all other illness in the world.
>
>See Also: HEAL
>--
So? Kallisti has 50 (count them 50) levels to go through, also you
neglected (of course you did) to post the mana cost for this spell (which
is a minumum of 65 points) even at 50th level this spell only heals back
260 points (with 50 levels warriors often have 5 times that at 50th).
The fact that hit points are so high doesn't mean that their is a shitty
power balance either, concidering there are mobs with over 10k hit points
out there!
>Heh. Player expertise. I like that one. I arrived for my first Kalliste
>session and had the following happen to me: transed twice to nowhere in
>particular, transed into hell (very effective hell, I recalled out), had
>small demons loaded all around me, had a set of equipment loaded up before
>me and had a sack of something or other loaded up before me. All
>compliments of Slaymatic, I believe. I let him keep his toys and still
>managed to hit 8th level in about three hours. From what I saw of a low
>level fighter with ridiculous stuff, he was jumping about twice as fast as
>me. Player expertise? I'm afraid you have no qualifications to be debating
>player expertise.
Don't blame me if (and you can at least show enough respect to spell names
right) Slaytanic was bored and wanted to mess with your player.
Hell, it aint's like he's even on that often! Believe me, this isn't the
norm, yes, you do gain levels quickly at first. But, once you hit mid level
it paces out and takes quite a bit longer.
As far as player expertise goes, you have no right to criticize me about
it when you don't even have your facts straight or know my background.
When I started back at Kallisti this year, I started when it first came
up after being down over the summer (and the player file had been wiped)
there were no highlevel players around that I could pick up equipment
from, or group with, ect. I had to start from the bottom, killing fidos
and janitors and gradually working my way up. If you're such an expert
player as you claim to be, then how come it only took you 3 hours to
gain those levels? With all the equipment others had left laying around,
you should have been able to get those 8 levels in a third of the time.
Now before you go and slam that, let me point out that it's not nearly as
easy once the mobs you go after start matching your players strength
(with kit). True, Kallisti is high level loaded right now, but the high
levels are a lot more difficult.
>I believe your upper echelon should be encouraged to play the game, to
>develop some understanding of how it works. However, I know of people who can
>be made immortal and who will handle the responsibility correctly. I've seen
>far too many players who, after advancing to immortal, only think about
>helping themselves. On the other hand, any immortal who does so should be out
>on his or her proverbial ears.
Well, there you've said one thing I can agree with you on.
>Oh, I'll probably continue to play Kallisti for a while. There are a few
>people I want to kill, and unless the immortals there stop me, I'll continue
>to give it the ol' Diku try. However, the concept of balance doesn't even
>begin to enter into things.
Yeah, concept of balance doesn't fit in, huh? I suppose that's why the most
poserful items in the game all have level restrictions, I suppose that's
why although clerics and mages can cast high level spells they can't wear
armors with an AC_apply vaule grater than 10. The classes are very
balanced right now (and improving). Yes, the level balance leaves a lot
to be desired, but why don't you email the mud at m...@wtfd.orst.edu and
offer CONSTRUCTIVE ideas for helping with the balance, rather than using
uninformed guesses to flame the mud in hopes that it makes your penis
grow.
Oh, and Scar(ec)row (read: needed a brain), I won't try to stop you from
PKing on Kallisti, and I'll be sure to tell the other Imms not to try
and stop you. And in no way will I aid anyone you go after. Unless,
and this is my one constraint, they are more than 5 levels below your
own)
-Rasta @ Kallisti (tiegan.cs.orst.edu or 128.193.32.20 4000)
>
>--
>Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
>bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
>-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
--
-Eric L. Pilcher gt7...@prism.gatech.edu
Scarrow
>reason. (Which I think is a good thing.) Most of the immortals are not
>even active ones but have that stature becuase they are a sys-admin for
>tiegan or something of that nature. Gee, Scarrow, to see just the HUGE
>numbers of Kallisti Gods, all had you had to do was type 'wizlist' or
>were you too newbile to figgure that out, twit!
*smirk* I'm not talking about the number of immortals. I'm talking about the
fact that anyone who wants to go immortal can, and with the help of the
people playing the game, could probably achieve it in about 24 hours. It has
little to do with the fact that the players are so obsessive with their power
trips that they won't bother to immort.
>Read: Is not encouraged if there is no real reason behind it. In general
>penis waving power trippers who are out to prove the can sure jit by killing
>players 10 levels below themselves are not tollerated. However, I'll
>openly encourage the PKing of asshole scum.
Reason. Reason. Why does there have to be a reason? Maybe someone just
wants to kill someone else. If you knew me better, you'd realize that the
number of times I've attacked levels lower than myself has been ridiculously
small, as compared to the number of times I've attacked levels far greater
than my own (read: very often).
>Now, before you go and slam on Kallisti's spells and the like get your
>damn facts straight. First of all, you can't portal or wizard eye to a
>room that is flagged PRIVATE. Meaning that in quest like areas a mage
>can get close to the objective, but not right at it. Areas are set up
>where the most popular or most powerful mobs cannot be portaled to.
That's not the point. The point is that portal can be used to get to
players. Lets say, for example, I attack Myshella with my character Scarrow.
Now, Myshella is a mage and I've just committed suicide. Myshella can spy on
me most anytime she likes and then wait until I'm sleeping, wounded, fighting,
etc., and then simply portal to me. And of course, hiding in the dark won't
work, since as always we have a hokey infravision spell that's especially easy
to get.
>So? Kallisti has 50 (count them 50) levels to go through, also you
>neglected (of course you did) to post the mana cost for this spell (which
>is a minumum of 65 points) even at 50th level this spell only heals back
>260 points (with 50 levels warriors often have 5 times that at 50th).
>The fact that hit points are so high doesn't mean that their is a shitty
>power balance either, concidering there are mobs with over 10k hit points
>out there!
Hmmm, typical mud inflation. Lets make the mobiles bigger, the players
bigger, the spells bigger. This kind of inflation has never impressed me.
10k hit points? So what. Anyone can type 10000 1 into the mobile file.
Lets see some mobiles with reasoning, intricate special procedures, etc.
>As far as player expertise goes, you have no right to criticize me about
>it when you don't even have your facts straight or know my background.
>When I started back at Kallisti this year, I started when it first came
>up after being down over the summer (and the player file had been wiped)
>there were no highlevel players around that I could pick up equipment
>from, or group with, ect. I had to start from the bottom, killing fidos
>and janitors and gradually working my way up. If you're such an expert
>player as you claim to be, then how come it only took you 3 hours to
>gain those levels? With all the equipment others had left laying around,
>you should have been able to get those 8 levels in a third of the time.
Because I didn't take any of the equipment, as I pointed out. I made those
levels mostly with a longsword and eventually a sharp knife (6d1 item, not
overly impressive), normal bronze armor, etc. I started at the bottom as
well. It was still terrifically easy. I never claimed to be an expert
player, I was simply pointing out how easy the game is.
>Yeah, concept of balance doesn't fit in, huh? I suppose that's why the most
>poserful items in the game all have level restrictions, I suppose that's
>why although clerics and mages can cast high level spells they can't wear
>armors with an AC_apply vaule grater than 10. The classes are very
>balanced right now (and improving). Yes, the level balance leaves a lot
>to be desired, but why don't you email the mud at m...@wtfd.orst.edu and
>offer CONSTRUCTIVE ideas for helping with the balance, rather than using
>uninformed guesses to flame the mud in hopes that it makes your penis
>grow.
Hmmm, childish attempts at flaming me won't prove much. I will slander
Kallisti, but lets refrain from debasing our argument to irrelevancies.
Anyway, if you ever read my other posts, you know I've already offered my
ideas to the mud community at large. I won't stop to take the time to send
these ideas to every podunk mud that comes along as well.
Also, don't take these examples to be purely a defamement of Kallisti.
It is my view that this sort of thing is propogated way too much on most of
the Dikus in existance. Kallisti was, however, a convenient example as I
had played there and it was a direct respond to your previous post.
Aaron Matthew Buhr
>kre...@fm11hp01.tu-graz.ac.at (Herbert Kremser) writes:
>>IMM or higher, but this isn't a must. And I don't know of any Diku-Mud
>>with online programming :( Are you sure you are not talking of LP-mud
>>in this Diku-mud group?
>
> There are quite a few Dikus with "online programming"... Adversary,
>Arctic, Armageddon, HypeNet, SillyMUD, and probably quite a few more of
>which I'm not aware, all have some sort of online creation system.
>Armageddon is the only Diku I know of with an actual programming language,
>although it's quite a pitiful one (I'm attempting to improve it...
>Right now it's only good for relatively simple special procedures.)
Worlds of Carnage hasn't differed as far from the base diku
system as many of the other popular muds have, but I'm very proud of
it's mob programming system, which was created about 5 months ago.
It's a pretty simple language but it has powerful hooks into game
processes and has a fairly natural syntax. As it currently stands it
can be used to make some very complex mobiles with detailed NPC-PC
interaction and realistic behavior.
Since the Carnage imps are few and very busy with real-world
activities, we don't have as much time as some others do to continually
hack away at and improve the base code. I'm reluctant to give away too
much information about Carnage's easy action system because it's one of
our most important advances over all other dikus (that I have seen).
But our creators use the easy action system to great advantage, and the
majority of our areas have very detailed mobiles. Feel free to drop
by and check them out, and if you see Dimwit ask him for a demonstration.
Worlds of Carnage @ foobar.eng.ufl.edu 4000
Henry McDaniel
>In article <1ojgln...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>>
>>That being my firm belief in your obligation to those that play your game.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>[...] But I also constantly remind myself that those under
>>me cannot appreciate fully what I must go through forthem (ie. coding
>>long hours, debugging longer hours, and testing even more hours.)
>>[...]
>Well I see. WE are "obligated", but others are entitled to not fully
>appreciate us? Sounds like a one way street to me. Before you try to
>uphold me to some imagined obligation you better be able to fully appreciate
>what I must go through to bring you a recreational diversion.
Lets get something straight. I am not one of your players. And with
all due respect don't ever confuse the fact. Futhermore WE are obligated
to:
>There has to be mutual respect that transcends minor disagreements on
>game balance, mechanics and priviledges. Otherwise no one is "obligated"
>to do anything.
Which includes staying above the politics of our games.
>>A policeman has a title - not a mandate to kill innocent people.
>>[...]
>Not so fast. A policeman is entitled to use reasonable force in order
>to control a situation and is even entitled to use deadly force in a
>life-threatening situation. He is not required to make judgements of
>guilt or innocence. Be careful of your analogies.
Ever heard of Rodney King?
>>[...]
>>that we must look at our roles in light of established norms. Par example,
>>It is not normal for a game admin to slay innocent players for instance,
>>therfore it would not be proper to call yourself by normal titles. This
>But it IS normal for this to occur. I've known it to happen from the
>beginning of my mud days.
[...]
Maybe on your mud. Maybe you should be indicted for murder 1 ;)
>>[....] We live each in his/her MUD world
>>-not an island unto itself- but as members of the MUD community. The MUD
>>community which I might point out reads net news such as this post. There
>>is more to Muddling then domination or power grabbing and the game builders
>>who fail to recognize that aren't building a game at all, but a monument
>>to their own egos.
> Ah yes.. egos. What would we do without them. I submit to you that
>anyone running a mud without an ego the size of New York is perhaps
>not worth thier salt. And if they say they don't have an ego that size
>then they are deluding themselves, because it takes one near that size
>to want to run one in the first place. SO who needs a monument.
>MY ego is its own monument and I laugh about it. There is no power to that.
>Power is not something you can grab. It must be given away. You either
>have it or you don't. The only ones looking for that mythical power are
>the underlings.
> And I might as well throw this tired old one in: You confuse a game with
>reality...etc etc
I cannot apologize for having a smaller ego than yours. On the contrary,
my lack of selfish ego is a proud factor in my MUD related activities.
Sure from time to time I want to exalt my own name and deeds.. but in the
end I know that I value being respected for my understanding and concern
for the common player. The monument I build is to the players. The monument
I build is for their entertainment. You see I remember every detail of being
mortal; tough newbie lessons... and the immortals. Ye gods have become far to
lofty and remote for the common player.
I sumbit to you that the common player is central to any MUD. You wish to
test this fact? Simply count the number of functions oriented towards lower
level players in your code... or the number of levels. The average Imp forgets
his roots... and thats easy enough to do with all the work we must do. Yet
through it all we must serve those that play our games. And it has become my
misson to improve the lot of muddlers.
Fine. Perhaps I shouldn't 'preach' by ideal Mud ethics, but would a man
who values something so much do any less? I call for MUD reform. Thats
right I encourage every implementor to re-evaluate his/her game and to
be certain that the players (as a whole) are not being forgotten. Does
the reader disagree with this call? If so they fear something.
>>
>>designed for similar purposes. I never said a game implementor has to
>>_DO_ what players say... I said it is the imp's responsibility atleast to
>>consider what players say -and- let players know this.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Does common sense need to be spoken? This is why I scoff at people
>posting and saying they "listen" to the players.
[deleted...]
We're talking about dis-information or propoganda here... I make no bones
about the fact. The point is that the degree to which you act on player
concerns is up to the Imp. My ethic is to sit down and listen first, not
produce a brick wall of indifference. I'll point out that I would act on
any valid and well motivated player suggestion -regardless of who's ego
(wizard's or whoever) might get hurt in the process. I try to stay out
of Polimudics. To do that you of need must make tough decisons (as we
said once before.)
>[deleted...] It would be interesting to
>know what "concerns" you think I ignored. And keep in mind that for
>every concern another person has a conflicting one. You can't expect
>to get immediate visible results.
[deleted...]
As I said I am not one of your players. Also as I said long ago I only
had a character on Adversary for 'chat.' Hence my concerns directly
grew from the info YOUR players gave me. Many came to me and complained
about things done on Adversary. I'm not going to bring *any* of em up
because my goal is not to accuse you any further. My intent here and now
is to dicuss Mud ethics.
> I don't find this topic particularly interesting, because it has gone
>round and round for so long that everyone sounds like a stuck record.
>Start a new thread and address very specific concerns on which a concensus
>might be reached.
>-jeff
The new thread is Mud ethics and the pros/cons of unbalanced ego. The
specific concern is: Implementors in general have become far to lofty
and remote for the common player.
-McDaniel (Stellar)
Dan Brumleve
>In article <C4B3w...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brumleve@atropa (Dan Brumleve) writes:
>> There are quite a few Dikus with "online programming"... Adversary,
>>Arctic, Armageddon, HypeNet, SillyMUD, and probably quite a few more of
>>which I'm not aware, all have some sort of online creation system.
>>Armageddon is the only Diku I know of with an actual programming language,
>>although it's quite a pitiful one (I'm attempting to improve it...
>>Right now it's only good for relatively simple special procedures.)
> Worlds of Carnage hasn't differed as far from the base diku
>system as many of the other popular muds have, but I'm very proud of
>it's mob programming system, which was created about 5 months ago.
>It's a pretty simple language but it has powerful hooks into game
>processes and has a fairly natural syntax. As it currently stands it
>can be used to make some very complex mobiles with detailed NPC-PC
>interaction and realistic behavior.
The programming language I wrote for Armageddon is similar to BASIC
in structure (command based, very awful for writing long programs.) It's
called ASML (Armageddon's Shity MUD Language)... I wrote it as sort of
a joke (I didn't figure it would actually be useful for anything), but
I'll probably improve it a lot soon and change the name to something
more serious. ;-) I'd be interested to know how anyone else has set up
programming languages in their MUDs... I wasn't aware that anyone else
had written one for a Diku.
ASML uses some C-like concepts (function calls, variable declarations,
etc.), but program structure is worse than BASIC... It's designed for
people who don't have any clue how to program, but I think I've
underestimated the creators' enthusiasm and I plan to make it more
useful in the future. In case anyone is interested, here's an example
ASML program...
-----
if cmd != cmd_bribe
return
declare character guardian
void_func guardian get_char_room ch arg1
if guardian != npc
return
declare int amount
copy amount [arg2]
if amount > ch>obsidian
return
add guardian>obsidian amount
sub ch>obsidian amount
csend ch You hand [guardian>sdesc] [amount] obsidian coins.
csend guardian [ch>sdesc] hands you [amount] obsidian coins.
csend_ex_two ch guardian [ch>sdesc] hands [guardian>sdesc] some money.
if amount < 50
goto not_enough
csend guardian You smile secretively.
csend_ex guardian [guardian>sdesc] smiles secretively.
csend ch [guardian>sdesc] whispers to you, "The Overlord will see you now."
csend guardian You whisper to [ch>sdesc], "The Overlord will see you now."
csend_ex_two ch guardian [guardian>sdesc] whispers to [ch>sdesc].
csend guardian You utter the words, 'mon un ruk jura fol'.
csend_ex guardian [guardian>sdesc] utters the words, 'mon un ruk jura fol'.
csend_ex ch [ch>sdesc] looks shocked as [ch>heshe] turns into a pile of sand.
declare room dest
room_func dest get_room_num 7900
if room = room_null
exit
void_func char_from_room ch
void_func char_to_room ch dest
csend_ex ch [ch>sdesc] looks shocked as [ch>heshe] rises from a pile of sand.
csend ch Everything blacks out momentarily... You find yourself in...
command ch look
-not_enough
csend ch [guardian>sdesc] whispers to you, "You attempt to bribe me?"
csend guardian You whisper to [ch>sdesc], "You attempt to bribe me?"
csend_ex_two ch guardian [guardian>sdesc] whispers to [ch>sdesc].
exit
-----
(I just wrote this on the spot, so if anything looks suspiciously
wrong, it probably is.) That program contains most of what can be done
with ASML... The programs can be "attached" to rooms, objects, NPCs,
or just run manually. It actually works rather well now, although the
code is still a mess. Ideas/comments/flames welcome.
> I'm reluctant to give away too
>much information about Carnage's easy action system because it's one of
>our most important advances over all other dikus (that I have seen).
Sheesh, running MUDs isn't a competition... It's usually a bad idea
to _distribute_ code, since many people have no qualms about deleting
copyright notices and claiming they wrote it (look what's happened with
the DikuMUD code, for instance), but ideas should certainly be shared.
> Worlds of Carnage @ foobar.eng.ufl.edu 4000
-Dan
Henry McDaniel
>In <1ojgln...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>>That being my firm belief in your obligation to those that play your game.
>[...]
>>I have decided to let people play my game pubicly... there must be some
>>code of ethics to abide by.
>[...]
>>In short, it is every true Implemntors obligation to support the norms
>>of MUD ethics as defined by what players have found to be helpful on games
>>designed for similar purposes.
>[...]
>All bullshit.
There is no need to curse.
Has my invocation of the term 'Obligation' upset you? Count to 10
backwards, that always calms me down.
>As I had occasion to point out to an obnoxious player on
>Adversary many moons ago...everyone but the implementor(s) is a GUEST of
>the mud. Guests don't make rules or specify "norms." They have one
>inalienable right...to stop being a guest. There are dozens upon dozens
>of Diku's out there...vote with your feet (hmm...with your keyboard? ;).
You seem to be under the impression that I play on some mud and complain
about that mud. This is not the case. I am expressing my views as a game
Implementor and observer. You mention that, 'Guests don't make rules or
specify "norms."' Would you have us believe that a host has no responsiblites?
No matter how little it cost for a guest to use something or 'live' somewhere
the host has a duty to uphold some standards. Example: You recieve a letter
from the Holiday Inn in Brazil. The letter says you can stay there for as long
as you want absolutely free. You pack your suitcases and grab your 386 pc
(heh heh a true muddler) and hop the next flight down. Ahh the sun and
cheap luxury items... The trip is really starting to click and you decide
to make this place your new home. But you know what the funny part is?
The Owner of the hotel is a sadistic little hump backed Igor-like butcher
knife wielding, grudge holding maniac. He's the implemntor of the hotel (
so to speak) and your in his land now so he figures: "Lets see if all tourist
bleed bright red...".....
Being a guest is no crime. Ethics tell me innocent people deserve better.
>On the other hand, if you as an implementor want to abide by some specific
>code of conduct, more power to you. If it is one that players like, then
>they will play your game.
My code of ethics is subjective but within established MUD norms benefical
to the common player. The 'game' is built for players. Implementors
maintain the game. Therefore Implementors maintain the game for players.
>Actually, you also have another right. You can offer your ideas about mud
>ethics all you want and try to convince people not to play on muds that
>don't follow them. What a fun time.
My Dear, Berek... You do me a grave injustice. I never encourage people
to stop playing muds that don't follow my ethics. If players enjoy playing
the kind of mud which disrespects them that is their choice. And you know
I respect player choices. After all they should be where they get the most
entertainment.
>Berek Ironthew, Paladin King
>--
>**************************************************************************
>* "Rub her feet." -- L.L. * Jeffrey S. Clary *
>* * cl...@iastate.edu *
>**************************************************************************
-McDaniel (Stellar)
Henry McDaniel
>ab...@ravl.rice.edu (Aaron Matthew Buhr) writes:
>>In article <C4B3w...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brumleve@atropa (Dan Brumleve) writes:
>>> There are quite a few Dikus with "online programming"... Adversary,
>>>Arctic, Armageddon, HypeNet, SillyMUD, and probably quite a few more of
>>>which I'm not aware, all have some sort of online creation system.
>>>Armageddon is the only Diku I know of with an actual programming language,
>>>although it's quite a pitiful one (I'm attempting to improve it...
>>>Right now it's only good for relatively simple special procedures.)
[deleted...]
> The programming language I wrote for Armageddon is similar to BASIC
>in structure (command based, very awful for writing long programs.) It's
>called ASML (Armageddon's Shity MUD Language)... I wrote it as sort of
>a joke (I didn't figure it would actually be useful for anything), but
>I'll probably improve it a lot soon and change the name to something
>more serious. ;-) I'd be interested to know how anyone else has set up
>programming languages in their MUDs... I wasn't aware that anyone else
>had written one for a Diku.
[deleted...]
On Stellar I was working on a language too. I didn't know anyone else
was working on similar projects... tho I guess any concievable coding
project is going to be underway (in some degree) on other muds.
My goal was to make an lp compatible language, bridging the gap between
Diku and LP's. I made some errors -other imps pay notice- I decided
not to use lex or yacc (pattern recognition programs that make parsing
languages easier.) Instead I wrote my own parser for LPC-DIKU. This
method (from C) will always be slower than the former method and didn;t
allow me to concentrate on the details of functions calling functions
(sounds like the chapter title in a newbie C book.)
The furthest I went was to give wizards a nice UNIX shell (standard
file op commands etc.) and tested some of the parser. The problems
I encounterd where 1.) speed and 2.) function complexity. These can
be overcome ofcourse. I've changed my emphasis now and plan to concentrate
on a simpler natural english oriented script language.
> Sheesh, running MUDs isn't a competition... It's usually a bad idea
>to _distribute_ code, since many people have no qualms about deleting
>copyright notices and claiming they wrote it (look what's happened with
>the DikuMUD code, for instance), but ideas should certainly be shared.
>-Dan
I agree... But when I first started coding I felt highly protective of
evrything I did. Now I don't care nearly as much. The thing is I don't
like giving out code which is less than perfect -makes me look bad and
feel cheated out of solving the bugs myself. If Lpmud's are a good
indicator of how long it takes to make something perfect, I guess I'll
never release all of my code.
Be nice if everyone shared what projects they were working on so
we don't all have to re-invent everything. "Not gonna happen," I
hear someone saying....
-McDaniel (Stellar)
John Brothers
>I have decided to let people play my game pubicly... there must be some
>code of ethics to abide by. Now everyone who has read MUD FAQ's thinks
No there isn't. Just because you think it should be that way doesn't
make it so. Can you point to this code of ethics? No? Then it must be
an idea, and everyone has their own ideas.
>any God can do whatever they please with any player. I tell you that the
>title of 'Implementor', 'God' or 'Wizard' is tarnished when one abuses
>their authority and the latter does not define the former.
titles are strings of characters. They are meaningless. You have assigned
meaning to them, and you are trying to make others adopt your meanings.
>
>A policeman has a title - not a mandate to kill innocent people. Likewise
>a God or Wizard has a title - not a mandate to do as they please. I propose
>that neither you or I should define our titles based on what we wish to do.
>But rather that we should 'fill' the title which best describes our role.
>This implies that a game admin who loves to kill newbies whenever he's on
>should be called the PK Lord or something - but NOT the God or any such
>title.
A policeman has an office. This office was given to him, along with certain
responsibilities, and certain benefits. These responsibilities are defined
in a code, that has been written down, and is available for all to see. The
benefits are also written down for all to see. Can you say the same for
mud implementation? No? Even if you could, what validity does it have?
Policemen are bound by responsibilites created through the arbitrary passing
of laws, using an arbitrary process which was selected arbitrarily. The
only thing that gives this code power is that hundreds of millions of people
follow it, and that violating it enough times will probably get the violator
punished. That is all the power it has. Mud ethics don't even have that
much power. Even if they existed.
>True, "I code and maintain therefore I'm the Implementor." But I believe
>that we must look at our roles in light of established norms. Par example,
>It is not normal for a game admin to slay innocent players for instance,
>therfore it would not be proper to call yourself by normal titles. This
>obviously is subjective.... however we live each in his/her MUD world
>-not an island unto itself- but as members of the MUD community. The MUD
>community which I might point out reads net news such as this post. There
>is more to Muddling then domination or power grabbing and the game builders
>who fail to recognize that aren't building a game at all, but a monument
>to their own egos.
So now you are defining what is normal, and informing me that I am a member
of the 'Mud community'. Fascists tell people what is normal. Hitler was a
fascist. Hitler told the germans what they wanted to hear. You are a
fascist. You are telling the mudders that they should have some power over
the implementors. You want everyone to follow your definition of what is
normal.
>
>In short, it is every true Implemntors obligation to support the norms
>of MUD ethics as defined by what players have found to be helpful on games
>designed for similar purposes. I never said a game implementor has to
>_DO_ what players say... I said it is the imp's responsibility atleast to
>consider what players say -and- let players know this.
When was this obligation presented to me? Was I absent that day? Since no
one who has power over me has presented this obligation to me, I will ignore
it.
Now you are not only telling me that I should follow norms of conduct as
defined by someone else, but I have obligations as defined by you, and
responsibilities as defined by you. What will submitting to your desires
give to me? Nothing of value.
>I think many of the player-god relations problems on Adversary (for instance)
>could have been avoided had its Chief Deputy (hows that for a title?) let
>them know how much he wished to please them and was trying to 'hear their
>concerns.' Now later he could have done whatever he wanted to.. (heck
>as I said someone must make tough decisons) But there would not be an air
>of distrust, anger and potential terrorism (?) lurking about.
Its an incredibly offensive title. You have just attempted to degrade the
person who has created Adversary, into someone who is just the caretaker.
Certainly, the title is meaningless to him or to me. But to you, it is
loaded with meaning, otherwise you wouldn't have labelled him as such.
Lastly. First you say that we should listen to the players. Then, you
say, we should do what we want to anyways. So, you are admitting that
as an implementor, you have absolute power. But then, you seem to suggest
that he would listen to the players, and then LATER do what he wanted.
This seems to suggest that you don't want the players to know that you have
absolute power. Now Jeff was always open, and forthright. Everyone always
knew that he was in control. On your mud, that might be clouded. People
may not know that you have absolute power. why? because you are deceiving
them.
So lets recap: You want all the other implementors to hold themselves
bound to a particular code of mud ethics, one that you agree
with. You want them to do and be what is "normal".
You want them to meet certain obligations, and hold
certain responsibilities, as you define them. You want them to behave
as a member of the MUD community, as you define it. And you want them
to deceive the players, by pretending to listen, and then doing what
they wanted to anyways.
Here is my promise to you.
I will never follow your concept of ethics.
I will never follow anothers concept of what is "normal", just for the sake of
conforming.
I will never accept obligations or responsibilities thrust upon me without my
consent
I will never label myself as defined by the behavior of the MUD community
I will never lie to my players, by pretending to care when I don't. I will
be always truthful.
I am, and shall remain, a free man. And, I would like to point out, that
if you feel that you represent a majority of the mud community, that U.S.
law, if it had any jurisdiction here, would protect ME from you.
When you log into someone elses mud, you have one right. The right to leave,
and go somewhere else. Anyone who thinks differently is a fascist and
an idiot.
John
James D Levino
>One more I publish my firm belief that it is every Implementor's obligation
>to listen to the problems of their players and provide for their better
>entertainment.
>
I think not. While it would be nice if implementors do this (and we do
on JediMUD), quite simply, implementors are under no obligations
to do ANYTHING that players want -- it is expectet that they would
listen to and respond, but not required. However, if they take this route,
they are likely to find that they have a "ghost-mud".
Onivel of Jedi
John Brothers
>I cannot apologize for having a smaller ego than yours. On the contrary,
>my lack of selfish ego is a proud factor in my MUD related activities.
Heh. You are really amazingly stereotyped. Maybe you cannot apologize,
but you probably should.
Selfish: concerned with, or relating to one's own interests.
Ego: the individual, as aware of him/herself
So what you have said is that you lack any ability to put your own
interests ahead of anyone elses in mud dealings. I.E. anyone can
tell you what to do as far as muds are concerned. You will submit
to anyone's will.
Is this true? From what I have seen, you listen to the players, but then
you do as you please. Which means that you put your self interests
first. But, for whatever reason, you don't want to admit that you put
your self-interests first.
>Sure from time to time I want to exalt my own name and deeds.. but in the
>end I know that I value being respected for my understanding and concern
>for the common player.
So you value being respected for your understanding and concern. So,
therefore, everyone else must also value understanding and concern? WHY?
>The monument I build is to the players. The monument
>I build is for their entertainment. You see I remember every detail of being
>mortal; tough newbie lessons... and the immortals.
No.. the monument you build is to your ego. The players are the bricks you
use. Entertainment is the mortar. Tough newbie lessons is the architectural
plan.
> Ye gods have become far to
>lofty and remote for the common player.
Says you. With your value system.
> I sumbit to you that the common player is central to any MUD. You wish to
>test this fact? Simply count the number of functions oriented towards lower
>level players in your code... or the number of levels.
No. A comuter is central to any MUD. An implementor is the second most
important aspect of any mud. A network connection is the third most
important aspect. Players are the FOURTH most important aspect.
think about it. You can't run a mud without a computer. an implementor
has to put it up. A network connection allows access from remote machines.
The average Imp forgets
>his roots... and thats easy enough to do with all the work we must do. Yet
>through it all we must serve those that play our games. And it has become my
>misson to improve the lot of muddlers.
EXCUSE ME??? We must SERVE those who play our games? What body orifice
did you pull THAT one out of? As far as I know, the act of starting a mud
does not make one a SLAVE! and if I MUST serve, I have no free will, and
am therefore, a slave
> Fine. Perhaps I shouldn't 'preach' by ideal Mud ethics, but would a man
>who values something so much do any less?
You can preach all you want. Your right to preach is not the issue here.
The issue here, is apparently, my right to run my mud my way.
> I call for MUD reform.
(roughly translated: I want you to run your mud My way)
Thats
>right I encourage every implementor to re-evaluate his/her game and to
>be certain that the players (as a whole) are not being forgotten.
Players? What players? Oh, you mean those people who use the free
internet, to connect to my machine, and use computer time on my machine
(for free), to entertain themselves with the universe created by my
effort (for free).
>Does the reader disagree with this call? If so they fear something.
Damn straight. I fear the fact that you feel completely justified
attempting to force me to follow your ethics and your morals.
Someday, I hope you grow up, and never become president. Because you
apparently would sacrifice the rights of 999,999 people in order to
make 1,000,000 people happy. and whats more, you are probably right
now saying to yourself "yeah, thats right, 1 million people are more
important, why shouldn't they be happy". Damn Scary.
>We're talking about dis-information or propoganda here... I make no bones
>about the fact. The point is that the degree to which you act on player
>concerns is up to the Imp.
My god. This is the first rational thing I've seen you post all day.
My ethic is to sit down and listen first, not
>produce a brick wall of indifference.
Your ethic. remember those words. That ethic belongs to you. I don't want
it.
I'll point out that I would act on
>any valid and well motivated player suggestion -regardless of who's ego
>(wizard's or whoever) might get hurt in the process. I try to stay out
>of Polimudics. To do that you of need must make tough decisons (as we
>said once before.)
The issue here is not whether you WOULD act, it is whether you MUST act.
Earlier statements of yours indicate the latter. That is part of your
ethic. It is not necessarily part of mine. Why should it be?
>The new thread is Mud ethics and the pros/cons of unbalanced ego. The
>specific concern is: Implementors in general have become far to lofty
>and remote for the common player.
At last. And my final comment is:
What the hell is unbalanced ego?
John
Christopher R. Boggs
Hey McD, give it up man.....You're getting hammered. Sad thing is...The
guys hammering you are right. Imps have _NO_ obligations. God Imps will have
populated muds, bad ones will have empty muds. You've got the Imps of Silly
and Adversary (2 of the most popular Dikus ever) slamming you right and left.
They much more experience and most likely much more "skill" in the matter. I
think you have noble ideas, but they just don't apply here. Most good Imps
treat thier players decently. But they don't do it because they are forced to
or because some "New Imp on the Block" decided to write a DikuMUD Constitution
that regulates us all.
Imp your mud your way, we'll Imp ours in our ways. Don't make yourself
look like a religious fanatic. I just dont want to be "saved" right now.
Jeffrey Stine
I apologise for this lengthy reply and dragging this junk out, but I
can't let it lie "as is".
>st...@handel.psu.edu (Jeffrey Stine) writes:
>
>>In article <1ojgln...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>>>
>>Well I see. WE are "obligated", but others are entitled to not fully
>>appreciate us? Sounds like a one way street to me. Before you try to
>>uphold me to some imagined obligation you better be able to fully appreciate
>>what I must go through to bring you a recreational diversion.
>
>Lets get something straight. I am not one of your players. And with
>all due respect don't ever confuse the fact. Futhermore WE are obligated
>to:
>
You mistake "you" here to be yourself as opposed to what I meant as in
"you" the public at large. That's ok, it is a typical egocentric mystake.
>>There has to be mutual respect that transcends minor disagreements on
>>game balance, mechanics and priviledges. Otherwise no one is "obligated"
>>to do anything.
>
>Which includes staying above the politics of our games.
>
Are you a frustrated politician or something? And let's get something
straight. I am not one of your co-implementors. I am not "we" I was
in the business long before you and always conducted myself ethically
in my relationships to other players. Games should not have politics
and your propensity to continually bring this up without proof suggests
to me that you are the political animal in this mess. I certainly will
take an eye for an eye, tit for tat on occassion, but this is not politics.
It is more along the lines of frontier justice. You do me wrong and
you'll pay the price if need be. Don't go into things with your eyes
and your mind closed and you doubtless will have no trouble from my
sector. Amazing as it may seem I don't need another implementor
to tell me how to be ethical.
>>>A policeman has a title - not a mandate to kill innocent people.
>>>[...]
>
>>Not so fast. A policeman is entitled to use reasonable force in order
>>to control a situation and is even entitled to use deadly force in a
>>life-threatening situation. He is not required to make judgements of
>>guilt or innocence. Be careful of your analogies.
>
>Ever heard of Rodney King?
>
Oh god I knew you were going to say this. How droll. No refutation
or restatement in a more logical fashion just that piece of prose.
The policemen in the King case are accused of violating the man's civil
rights. They used excessive force in my opinion. You will notice, that
I previously said "reasonable". Are you now want to say that policemen
should not be entitled to use such reasonable force? You want to say an
implementor or his admins are not entitled to use reasonable means to
control their game?
>Maybe on your mud. Maybe you should be indicted for murder 1 ;)
>
Maybe you should be indicted for treason? There is no maybe about it.
This happens on each and every mud to some extent or other. They aren't
all bad just because of a few isolated yet normal incidents.
You going to truthfully say that you have never made an enemy on your
mud? That no one has provoked you to kill them or worse?
Muder 1 indeed, ";)" not withstanding.
>I cannot apologize for having a smaller ego than yours. On the contrary,
I pity your puny ego. ;)
>my lack of selfish ego is a proud factor in my MUD related activities.
Eeerrrrk.. Put on the brakes here. No one said "selfish" before this.
My ego can be as tall as the Sears Tower, but I don't feel selfish.
The mere fact I would give so much of my time and effort in the first
place speaks volumns about the lack of selfishness.
I can, however, be prudent and humble when the time calls for it.
Your remarks so far have lacked any prudence whatsoever.
>Sure from time to time I want to exalt my own name and deeds.. but in the
>end I know that I value being respected for my understanding and concern
>for the common player. The monument I build is to the players. The monument
>I build is for their entertainment. You see I remember every detail of being
>mortal; tough newbie lessons... and the immortals. Ye gods have become far to
>lofty and remote for the common player.
{You hear the soft tones of an elegantly played violin in the background]
>
> I sumbit to you that the common player is central to any MUD. You wish to
>test this fact? Simply count the number of functions oriented towards lower
>level players in your code... or the number of levels. The average Imp forgets
Uh you got me here. Is this an indictment of something? If the number of
functions geared toward players and the number of levels in my code is
supposed to prove their centralness to a MUD, you missed the train here.
The number of functions I made are overwelmingly for immortals and I didn't
add a single level for the players. Maybe I missed the train on your comment,
but I can still attach importance to the person behind a character without
making a bigger playground for them.
>his roots... and thats easy enough to do with all the work we must do. Yet
>through it all we must serve those that play our games. And it has become my
>misson to improve the lot of muddlers.
>
Serve? What now I am in their employ? No longer am I `merely' obligated,
but now I must serve them? While I must agree that one should devote a
certain amount of attention to pleasing their tastes and fixing errors
(if you want to obtain a good loyal base population), serving the mortal
is totally counter to the idea of Godhood. Unless you expect implementors
to be enslaved, then the other side must give too, which was central to
my comments in the previous post. As a player being honest and respectful
will go a long way to getting the same in return. As I see it, those that
are capable of doing that have nothing to worry about from supposed
`tyranical' admins. Don't come into my home, invited or otherwise, and
treat me like dirt, lie to me and spread false rumours and then expect
to be treated nice.
> Fine. Perhaps I shouldn't 'preach' by ideal Mud ethics, but would a man
>who values something so much do any less? I call for MUD reform. Thats
>right I encourage every implementor to re-evaluate his/her game and to
>be certain that the players (as a whole) are not being forgotten. Does
>the reader disagree with this call? If so they fear something.
>
The only thing we have to fear is ignorance. I envite you to preach
all you want so long as you have your facts straight and present both
sides. I for one am not afraid of the truth. I do, however, fear the
mendacity of people. Rumours and outright lies can do a lot of harm,
going a long way to erecting walls and bringing about cold, strict
enforcement.
I re-evaluate my game and the player relations constantly. You don't
ask anything new. What you do on the other hand is assume that the
players are forgotten. And yet you can't come up with one instance
of this.
>[...]
>(wizard's or whoever) might get hurt in the process. I try to stay out
>of Polimudics. To do that you of need must make tough decisons (as we
>said once before.)
>
Note that they become tough for you because you spend all your time
emersed in your thought of political intrigue. To me most decisions
are common sense and should flow naturally from your experience and
willingness to do what's `right'. It is only my opinion, but you seem
to say you waffle (the indecision making a decision tough) and this
is probably due to your eagerness to please everyone. While you should
give every consideration, things don't have to be tough.
>As I said I am not one of your players. Also as I said long ago I only
>had a character on Adversary for 'chat.' Hence my concerns directly
>grew from the info YOUR players gave me. Many came to me and complained
>about things done on Adversary. I'm not going to bring *any* of em up
>because my goal is not to accuse you any further. My intent here and now
>is to dicuss Mud ethics.
>
Well this is damning once again.
a- "Yes, I heard from many that "b" really treats his players bad."
b- "How many? Who told you this? And what was the reasoning?"
a- "Oh I better not say."
You don't wish to accuse me any further yet you just did. How quaint.
I don't however ask that you drag out a discussion about it. Instead I
invite you to send me email with any specifics. I do listen to complaints
no matter how old and I do care. I care enough at least to set the record
straight after so much misinformation.
>The new thread is Mud ethics and the pros/cons of unbalanced ego. The
>specific concern is: Implementors in general have become far to lofty
>and remote for the common player.
>
>-McDaniel (Stellar)
The specific concern is: The players have become far to base and remote from
the common implementor. Sheesh.
It's all to easy to invent a rift and _then_ make it true. Calling other
implementors lofty egocentrics who mistreat people can only serve to make
them more disgusted and imobile to change - if indeed they need to,
as not everyone would agree (including a a fair number of players).
-jeff
Jeffrey Stine
>
>You seem to be under the impression that I play on some mud and complain
>about that mud. This is not the case. I am expressing my views as a game
Get real. You openly pointed a finger at Adversary and admitted you
did have a character there.
>[...] Example: You recieve a letter
>from the Holiday Inn in Brazil. The letter says you can stay there for as long
I sent no letters. I made no invites to stay at a hotel. In short,
your argument holds no weight.
>[...] But you know what the funny part is?
>The Owner of the hotel is a sadistic little hump backed Igor-like butcher
>knife wielding, grudge holding maniac. He's the implemntor of the hotel (
>so to speak) and your in his land now so he figures: "Lets see if all tourist
>bleed bright red...".....
>
Grow up. When you meet me (or any other implementor) and they have a
hump-back, show maniacl tendancies and is short, then you can say shit
like this. Otherwise stop mischracterising people. I mean you might as
well say all Georgians are hick rednecks - right Chris? ;)
( Thought maybe you had disappeared. Welcome back Usenet Hell. :)
> Being a guest is no crime. Ethics tell me innocent people deserve better.
>
And just who determines innocence?.......
>
>My code of ethics is subjective but within established MUD norms benefical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to the common player. The 'game' is built for players. Implementors
>maintain the game. Therefore Implementors maintain the game for players.
>
Ah you do. Ok just checking.
The game is built because someone wanted to. Implementors maintain the game.
Therefore implementors maintain the game because someone wanted to.
Internal logic check fails.
>My Dear, Berek... You do me a grave injustice. I never encourage people
>to stop playing muds that don't follow my ethics. If players enjoy playing
>the kind of mud which disrespects them that is their choice. And you know
>I respect player choices. After all they should be where they get the most
>entertainment.
>
You do US ALL a grave injustice. Your arguments are unsound and mostly
based on hearsay. If you aren't encouraging players not to play somewhere,
then what is your point? You must be trying to convince someone that
certain muds (at least Adversary) are unethical and unworthy.
Try bashing another mud for a change as you'll get no quarter from me.
>
>-McDaniel (Stellar)
>
-jeff
Henry McDaniel
>In article <1olsls...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@mead.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>>I cannot apologize for having a smaller ego than yours. On the contrary,
>>my lack of selfish ego is a proud factor in my MUD related activities.
[deleted...]
>So what you have said is that you lack any ability to put your own
>interests ahead of anyone elses in mud dealings. I.E. anyone can
>tell you what to do as far as muds are concerned. You will submit
>to anyone's will.
>Is this true? From what I have seen, you listen to the players, but then
>you do as you please. Which means that you put your self interests
>first. But, for whatever reason, you don't want to admit that you put
>your self-interests first.
Well let me clarify the point for you. I must make decisons because I
am currently in that position. On Stellar we are moving towards less
centralized rule. A council of 3 immortals will eventually make decisons,
with myself having veto power. This works fine because unlike some MUD
implementors I won't have the time to 'live' on the game but rather I'll
be living life. I look foward to leaving mudom and only visiting during
some vacation periods; life is too short and I DO need a frigging degree
(see modify.c for reference.)
>>Sure from time to time I want to exalt my own name and deeds.. but in the
>>end I know that I value being respected for my understanding and concern
>>for the common player.
>So you value being respected for your understanding and concern. So,
>therefore, everyone else must also value understanding and concern? WHY?
SIGH. If those that disagree with me are so confident that what they do is
just why all the flame? I didn't say you MUST, I said it is your duty.
I have no power to enforce ethics, merely point out errors.
>>The monument I build is to the players. The monument I
>>build is for their entertainment. You see I remember every detail of being
>>mortal; tough newbie lessons... and the immortals.
>No.. the monument you build is to your ego. The players are the bricks you
>use. Entertainment is the mortar. Tough newbie lessons is the architectura
>I plan.
Wrong. I care about people and I realized long ago that nobody reading this
is truly immortal. We are all mortal beings each trying to enjoy life the
best way we know how. My view is this: The essentials of man have not
changed for _thousands_ of years. You take a man from 2,000 A.D. and tho
he may not code muds he is a man worthy of respect and dignity. Infact
if you happened to end up in his world you'd find your own mud knowledge of
no value whatsoever. In a similar vain the players of muds are not far removed
from the maintainers. Allowing this will set you on the track towards the
ethics I speak of.
>> Ye gods have become far to
>>lofty and remote for the common player.
>Says you. With your value system.
>> I sumbit to you that the common player is central to any MUD. You wish to
>>test this fact? Simply count the number of functions oriented towards lower
>>level players in your code... or the number of levels.
>No. A comuter is central to any MUD. An implementor is the second most
>important aspect of any mud. A network connection is the third most
>important aspect. Players are the FOURTH most important aspect.
[...]
Wrong again. You confuse cause, effect and motivation. Would there be
muds without players/users? Obviously not. There is a big difference
between a single user text game and a MUD. Infact this difference goes
beyond the obvious coding mechanics - the difference is in ideaology.
Ideaology arises in any social environment... and believe you me a mud
IS a social place.
>> The average Imp forgets
>>his roots... and thats easy enough to do with all the work we must do. Yet
>>through it all we must serve those that play our games. And it has become
>>my misson to improve the lot of muddlers.
>EXCUSE ME??? We must SERVE those who play our games? What body orifice
>did you pull THAT one out of? As far as I know, the act of starting a mud
> does not make one a SLAVE! and if I MUST serve, I have no free will, and
>am therefore, a slave
Society is filled with public servants. To serve should not connotate slavery.
The President of The United States serves the people. He however is never
a slave. *SIGH* I choose to serve players as a friend and closer
administrator. This is very hard to do and I have not been able myself to
live up to my ideal ethics. This is similar to one who believes in following
the ten biblical commandments yet finds that they break these laws accidently.
It is possible to preach and not be guiltless (probably the rule rather than
the exception.) This I do but with the strong conviction that I have
professed the proper ethic.
>> Fine. Perhaps I shouldn't 'preach' by ideal Mud ethics, but would a man
>>who values something so much do any less?
>You can preach all you want. Your right to preach is not the issue here.
>The issue here, is apparently, my right to run my mud my way.
How can I take your right away? I cannot directly. All I can do is
take the imaginary basis for tyrant-type MUDS... which I intend fully
to do. (And I am not calling your mud tyrant-type... this is a general
statement.)
>> I call for MUD reform.
>(roughly translated: I want you to run your mud My way)
It means just what it says: I call for MUD reform. I present the
mentioned MUD ethic as a goal to achieve.
>Thats
>>right I encourage every implementor to re-evaluate his/her game and to
>>be certain that the players (as a whole) are not being forgotten.
>Players? What players? Oh, you mean those people who use the free
>internet, to connect to my machine, and use computer time on my machine
>(for free), to entertain themselves with the universe created by my
>effort (for free).
NO. I mean those people sitting across the room from you using the same
computer systems. Those people who may have higher IQ's then you or
me and furthermore make any mud interesting. I've never seen a mud
that was -fun- to play by yourself. As far as the universe every mud
Implementor creates: Universes are a dime a dozen.. Quite frankly I
can buy several for the free price of ftping. There have likely been
more mud universes than there are presntly wizards. Tell me just what
do you feel the market value of your universe IS? To put it politely
you'd have to adopt some MUD ethics to attract anything apporaching
'paying' players.
>>Does the reader disagree with this call? If so they fear something.
>Damn straight. I fear the fact that you feel completely justified
>attempting to force me to follow your ethics and your morals.
>Someday, I hope you grow up, and never become president. Because you
>apparently would sacrifice the rights of 999,999 people in order to
>make 1,000,000 people happy. and whats more, you are probably right
>now saying to yourself "yeah, thats right, 1 million people are more
>important, why shouldn't they be happy". Damn Scary.
Without bringing my rl personal life into this, I know what it means
to be in the minority and thus I don't go by numbers as you say. I
base decisons on the merit of indivdual request -what good it will serve
in the long haul. That means if a player wants 500 mortal levels added
I'd listen to their request and hear out the details. I would not say,
"Pooh bar, you silly little twit go suck a joystick." Why not? you ask..
I've spoken to literally thousands and thousands of people ( as a telephone
operator for a private answering service) and one must take pains to
notice the individual.. You must realize that others are not ptivy to
your experiences. Hence if 20 players ask you to give mages 300 mana at
level 1 and you refuse, don't yell at the newbie who ask the same question
3 weeks later.
>>We're talking about dis-information or propoganda here... I make no bones
>>about the fact. The point is that the degree to which you act on player
>>concerns is up to the Imp.
>My god. This is the first rational thing I've seen you post all day.
>My ethic is to sit down and listen first, not
>>produce a brick wall of indifference.
>Your ethic. remember those words. That ethic belongs to you. I don't want
>it.
*SIGH* Ethics are often shared by many people. If you do not wish to
take part in this one, thats your right. It is (as you pointed out) my
right to preach however.
>I'll point out that I would act on
>>any valid and well motivated player suggestion -regardless of who's ego
>>(wizard's or whoever) might get hurt in the process. I try to stay out
>>of Polimudics. To do that you of need must make tough decisons (as we
>>said once before.)
>The issue here is not whether you WOULD act, it is whether you MUST act.
>Earlier statements of yours indicate the latter. That is part of your
>ethic. It is not necessarily part of mine. Why should it be?
-----------
What does this mean exactly? Are you afraid of comittment? Cast your
vote man. We are either for or against the notion that players have
SOME basic rights (as do implementors.)
>>The new thread is Mud ethics and the pros/cons of unbalanced ego. The
>>specific concern is: Implementors in general have become far to lofty
>>and remote for the common player.
>At last. And my final comment is:
>What the hell is unbalanced ego?
>John
As I use the term,
Unbalanced ego: unjustified conceit with the tendancy to
displace others.
In short I'd call it one of the most vile attributes it is possible for a mere
man to possess. It is when one harms others because they believe that is their
right as a 'higher' being. This can be called by all sorts of other names,
few of which denote good or proper behavior. In a sense it may also be called
pride. A proud person (without merit or value comparable to their pride)
comes close aswell.
-McDaniel (Stellar)
Henry McDaniel
> Hey McD, give it up man.....You're getting hammered. Sad thing is...The
>guys hammering you are right. Imps have _NO_ obligations. God Imps will have
>populated muds, bad ones will have empty muds. You've got the Imps of Silly
>and Adversary (2 of the most popular Dikus ever) slamming you right and left.
Thats funny, I don't feel slammed at all. In fact I'm happy for the
oppurtunity to expouse my strong belief in a higher need for MUD ethics
to be shared by all involved. We talk so much about game balance in combat
muds... is it too much to ask for balanced debates here?
>They much more experience and most likely much more "skill" in the matter.
>I think you have noble ideas, but they just don't apply here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks
>Most good Imps
>treat thier players decently. But they don't do it because they are forced to
>or because some "New Imp on the Block" decided to write a DikuMUD Constitution
>that regulates us all.
I agree, most good Imps do treat their players properly. I seek not to
rebuke anyone who has and continues to do the nobler things.
I am not attempting to write a DikuMUD constitution.. however this cascade of
call/response activity has re-charged my desire to create a foundation which
will one day be the standard all MUDS are judged by. I will neither be judge
or jury but rather your brother, promoting better social standrads for games
at all levels.
> Imp your mud your way, we'll Imp ours in our ways. Don't make yourself
>look like a religious fanatic. I just dont want to be "saved" right now.
Yea, brother... I much rather would play the part of fanatic then status-quo
seeker. Call me a prophet of change if you will. Your entire post leaves
me feeling that you realize what I say is on a higher plain then the polimudics
of some games. Yet you 'just dont want to be saved right now.' Very well
brother. I can wait. Just repent of your wicked ways and all shall be
forgiven. Mail me (mcda...@u.washingon.edu) when you feel ready.
>
>-Chris
>--
>[]==========================================================================[]
> | Christopher R. Boggs, MGT Major, Georgia Institute of Technology |
> | "Death is life's way of telling you that you've been fired." -Anon |
>[]==========================================================================[]
-McDaniel (Stellar)
Henry McDaniel
>Onivel of Jedi
I keep hearing Implemntors saying that what I say is either 'noble' or
'nice' yet I sense anger that I have dared to bring the subject of MUD ethics
forth. If what I say is right in general then why the constant harping on what
we are, or are not, OBLIGATED to do. If you feel content abiding by something
aporaching the ethics I have layed out, why gripe over terms such as
"obligation?" If it is in a man's heart to do right he care's not if
it be called an obligation, duty, virtue or servitude. The important point
is that he doeth these things for the justice and self-evident rewards of
it. I respect all those that attempt fairness as you say.
What rewards? These are subjective to the man. For myself I feel good
treating players as I wished immortals to treat me when I was a newbie.
And yes I knew some very nice immortals when I started in mudom. The
major stream of them were either too busy or too arogant to care about
the little guy so I ever planned 2 things for MUDS. Reformation, reformation.
Yes, when you are an immortal you have more things to do and more
reasons to do them ;) yet still there must be time for courtesy and
respect. Ahh.... if this means a game where everyone takes time to
bow and chat at every turn and we say 'cheers' with enthusiasm I welcome
it gladly. If it means a game where all players feel a closeness and
social being that transcends polimudics, hallelujah.
-McDaniel (Stellar)
Mitchell Tse
>
> Hey McD, give it up man.....You're getting hammered. Sad thing is...The
>guys hammering you are right. Imps have _NO_ obligations. God Imps will have
>populated muds, bad ones will have empty muds. You've got the Imps of Silly
>and Adversary (2 of the most popular Dikus ever) slamming you right and left.
What's sad is that I know both John and Jeff make great code and have to take
time to defend against this McD dude, instead of doing more nice coding.
>They much more experience and most likely much more "skill" in the matter. I
>think you have noble ideas, but they just don't apply here. Most good Imps
>treat thier players decently. But they don't do it because they are forced to
>or because some "New Imp on the Block" decided to write a DikuMUD Constitution
>that regulates us all.
>
> Imp your mud your way, we'll Imp ours in our ways. Don't make yourself
>look like a religious fanatic. I just dont want to be "saved" right now.
>
>
>-Chris
>
What's pathetic here is this guy talks all this crap, and he gets the people
who really do something in the Mud Market, like John and Jeff, take their
time to defend themselves when most people KNOW that any imp has, by
definition, full power and isn't going to listen to this guy anyway. My
statement is:
A imp is running a mud because the imp wants to. Period.
None of this pleasing players or satisfying mud community standards crap.
Sure, if you want to, by all means, go for it, make your mud Politically
Correct Mud. But it's your choice. But, if you got the site and the smarts
to run your mud, no McD should even have a right to change your mind.
Of course, I wouldn't mind if every immortal turns goody goody and starts
kissing mortals' butts so he gets high Nielson Ratings of Mud-dom. Wait!
Damn, straight, I mind! (please note my heavy use of sarcasm in my
sentence starting with 'Of course...')
Well, for y'all imps and imp-gonnabees, I hope you listen to your own
heart and boot up your favorite if ya wanna, and forget this serving
business. Cater if you wish, but only if you wish.
Hatchet
Merc Industries
Herbert Kremser
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> John
Hey stay cool, where to will mudding lead if such a language gets common here
We don't need dictators like you, who explain us what we have to think.
Never heard of tolerance or something like that?
We are discussing here the role of Immortals and higher on muds what they are
able to do, what they should do etc.
IMHO common titles could be useful, to get you a better chance to see whom
you can ask if you log on a new mud. As far as i played mud there seem to
be 4 different types of IMM+
1. IMPLEMENTATORS: They usually own the account/site and the code of the mud.
So they decide what style of mud they make what rights all
the other people have which play their mud etc. etc.
If they decide to kick some players out, set them back
to Level 1, ban some nodes etc., it's their right, if
they do it often anyway some people will may get angry,
but who cares, you will hardly find players who want to
play there so a mud without players isn't really a mud.
So the only thing they are restricted, is some politeness
as it is usual in our modern society.
And don't forget they have to throw out all the bugs in
the code, implement new ideas etc.
2. let's call them GODS: they help the IMP's running the mud, search for
players who cheat, discuss the rules which should be
observed , have a look the work of the Creators doesn't
overthrow the balance of the mud etc.
For this they need some powerful commands, and it can be
only people who have full trust of the IMP's.
For this job hack and slash experience in former times
can be useful, because good players usually know all
tricks you can use on the mud. Sometimes it can be good
if they play mortals too, to not loose contact to the
players, but of course they shouldn't give out help too
easy.
3. let's call them CREATORS: on muds with online creation they make new
areas, with online programming they even can make
their own special procedures etc.
For doing this they need creation commands, but not really
power over other players. So for becoming Creator you
even not have to play the mud throw to highest mortal
level, because here you need very different skills than
hack and slash through the game. But of course good
knowledge of the mud is needed.
4. let's call them IMMORTALS: Players who have won the game, which mean
they have reached the highest mortal Level and maybe
have doing some special quests (depends on the mud).
On some muds you even have the choice to stay as a high
Level mortal and hack and slash through the rest of the
Mobs you haven't killed so far or help some lower level
players.
IMM's don't need very powerful commands, they can have
a closer look at all the areas without a risk of dieing,
explain newbies and other people the mud, search bugs
etc. They are usually not allowed to help their mortal
characters if they have some, or generally give out to
much help to mortals.
In doing good work as IMM's they can proof themself to
be worth elevated to GOD or CREATOR.
Ok sorry this post starts to get so long :(
These where just some ideas about roles of IMM+, in rl of course the last
3 classes are usually mixed together on most muds and some classes doesn't
exist at all at some muds.
And maybe you think everything should be completely different, if you do
just post it here.
Herbert
P.S. I've never seen so much reposts on 1 single article :-o
John Brothers
involved in a good argument like this since I finished the war against the
Chtorr. And I'm sure it shows :).
In article <1omjpu...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>with myself having veto power. This works fine because unlike some MUD
1) absolute veto power gives you absolute power.
>SIGH. If those that disagree with me are so confident that what they do is
>just why all the flame? I didn't say you MUST, I said it is your duty.
>I have no power to enforce ethics, merely point out errors.
duty: good behavior owed to ones superiors. Service requisite to one's
position. Any moral obligation.
2) But it is my moral obligation to do things the way you do them.
>Wrong. I care about people and I realized long ago that nobody reading this
>is truly immortal. We are all mortal beings each trying to enjoy life the
3) This would appear to be the gist of your argument:
Since the people playing my game are human, I have to treat them with basic
human rights.
3.1) I don't have to, but I will, because the alternative is punishment.
3.2) Characters are not humans. Characters are small blocks of memory
on my machine. Do I not have the right to treat blocks of memory
the way I feel???.
>Wrong again. You confuse cause, effect and motivation. Would there be
>muds without players/users? Obviously not. There is a big difference
>between a single user text game and a MUD. Infact this difference goes
4) Yes.. There would be muds without players. Anyone can go fetch a block
of code, and start a mud. Just because there is no one playing does not
make it something else. Let me put it to you another way. Is monopoly
a multi-player game? By your logic, it isn't a multi-player game until
multiple players play it at once!
5) And yes, there is a big difference between a single user text game and
a mud. A mud with a single user a) has the capacity to have more players.
and b) can still be fun for one person to play.
>Society is filled with public servants. To serve should not connotate slavery.
>The President of The United States serves the people. He however is never
>a slave.
6)The president chose to run for public office. He participated in a electoral
process, and swore an oath to serve the people. Mud implementors have done
NONE of these things. The analogy simply doesn't apply.
*SIGH* I choose to serve players as a friend and closer
>administrator. This is very hard to do and I have not been able myself to
>live up to my ideal ethics. This is similar to one who believes in following
>the ten biblical commandments yet finds that they break these laws accidently.
>It is possible to preach and not be guiltless (probably the rule rather than
>the exception.) This I do but with the strong conviction that I have
>professed the proper ethic.
7)Oh... So you can CHOOSE to serve, but I MUST serve. You said it bub.
Not me.
8) If you find yourself unable to live up to your ethics, then they aren't
really your ethics, are they?
>How can I take your right away? I cannot directly. All I can do is
>take the imaginary basis for tyrant-type MUDS... which I intend fully
>to do. (And I am not calling your mud tyrant-type... this is a general
>statement.)
Take?? Imaginary?? How can you take something imaginary?
But you admit that you are trying to take my rights away.
so therefore:
THIS MAN IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY MY RIGHTS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T LIKE THEM.
>It means just what it says: I call for MUD reform. I present the
>mentioned MUD ethic as a goal to achieve.
not so roughly translated: I want you to run your mud using My ethics.
>do you feel the market value of your universe IS? To put it politely
>you'd have to adopt some MUD ethics to attract anything apporaching
>'paying' players.
If I was paid by the people who play my game, I would indeed be obligated
to provide them with service. But they don't pay. So I'm not obligated.
>your experiences. Hence if 20 players ask you to give mages 300 mana at
>level 1 and you refuse, don't yell at the newbie who ask the same question
>3 weeks later.
The issue here is not how I treat my players, but I MUST treat them. You
want me to treat the players on my mud the way you treat the ones on yours.
But what makes the way you treat them so special? Just because you think
something is better does not make it so. There is no measuring stick here.
There is only your conviction. You cannot measure how much better your
idea is.
>>Your ethic. remember those words. That ethic belongs to you. I don't want
>>it.
>
>*SIGH* Ethics are often shared by many people. If you do not wish to
>take part in this one, thats your right. It is (as you pointed out) my
>right to preach however.
Yes, yes yes! It is your ethic. It may be shared by many people. It
is, however my right to do otherwise, and all your posturing doesn't
remove that right.
So what this all boils down to is: Run your mud your way, but I don't have
to like it.
The answer to that is. So what? Who cares what you like?
>What does this mean exactly? Are you afraid of comittment? Cast your
>vote man. We are either for or against the notion that players have
>SOME basic rights (as do implementors.)
players have one basic right. The right to leave.
>Unbalanced ego: unjustified conceit with the tendancy to
> displace others.
>
>In short I'd call it one of the most vile attributes it is possible for a mere
>man to possess. It is when one harms others because they believe that is their
>right as a 'higher' being. This can be called by all sorts of other names,
>few of which denote good or proper behavior. In a sense it may also be called
>pride. A proud person (without merit or value comparable to their pride)
>comes close aswell.
So lets see. Being proud is what you would call one of the most vile
attributes that it is possible for a mere man to possess.
So, when I say that I am proud of what I have done with my mud, that makes
me vile in your eyes.
Bah. you'll have to excuse me if I use the dictionary definition of pride:
A sense of one's own worth; self-respect. a feeling or object of delight.
John Brothers
>gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
>I am not attempting to write a DikuMUD constitution.. however this cascade of
>call/response activity has re-charged my desire to create a foundation which
>will one day be the standard all MUDS are judged by. I will neither be judge
>or jury but rather your brother, promoting better social standrads for games
>at all levels.
Ah! Hear me brother! I am proud of my ethic! I wish everything and everyone
to be judged by the perfectness of my ethic!
You are such a FASCIST!!!!!! Can't you hear the intolerance?? You are so
convinced that you're right that you'd be willing to step on anyone and
anything that disagrees with you. You're just as much of a tyrant as any
mud implementor that you despise so much!
John Brothers
>> Anyone who thinks differently is a fascist and an idiot.
>
>We don't need dictators like you, who explain us what we have to think.
>Never heard of tolerance or something like that?
Yes, I have. I was trying to demonstrate that McDaniel's blanket statements
about what I must do, and what my duties obligations and responsiblities
are is just as intolerant. Unfortunately, it didn't come out well.
>And maybe you think everything should be completely different, if you do
>just post it here.
Actually, your model is pretty much exactly how my my mud works.
So, I agree with you. But that doesn't mean that others have to.
>P.S. I've never seen so much reposts on 1 single article :-o
Funny how assaults on basic human rights can get people all riled up. :-)
McDaniel thinks that we (the IMPS) are assaulting the civil rights of
the players. And we think that he is assaulting ours.
Jackie F. Russell
The losers? Everyone who had tho read this garbage.
login
>cl...@iastate.edu (login) writes:
>>In <1ojgln...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
[McDaniel says imps have an "obligation"...I say bullshit]
>There is no need to curse.
Sorry if I offended... 8-)
>Has my invocation of the term 'Obligation' upset you? Count to 10
>backwards, that always calms me down.
Counting...read on.
[I say players are guests]
>You seem to be under the impression that I play on some mud and complain
>about that mud. This is not the case. I am expressing my views as a game
>Implementor and observer. You mention that, 'Guests don't make rules or
>specify "norms."' Would you have us believe that a host has no responsiblites?
Yup. That is the long and short of it.
>No matter how little it cost for a guest to use something or 'live' somewhere
>the host has a duty to uphold some standards. Example: You recieve a letter
>from the Holiday Inn in Brazil. The letter says you can stay there for as long
>as you want absolutely free. You pack your suitcases and grab your 386 pc
>(heh heh a true muddler) and hop the next flight down. Ahh the sun and
>cheap luxury items... The trip is really starting to click and you decide
>to make this place your new home. But you know what the funny part is?
>The Owner of the hotel is a sadistic little hump backed Igor-like butcher
>knife wielding, grudge holding maniac. He's the implemntor of the hotel (
>so to speak) and your in his land now so he figures: "Lets see if all tourist
>bleed bright red...".....
An analogy between a real-life butcher and a *GAME* is idiotic. The
implementor creates the game. Why should it be ok for a person to
create some types of games and not others? Why shouldn't an imp
be able to use whatever rules he wants, or even make them up as he
goes along? It is his game, after all. Last time I checked no one
was being forced to play a specific mud.
> Being a guest is no crime. Ethics tell me innocent people deserve better.
>>On the other hand, if you as an implementor want to abide by some specific
>>code of conduct, more power to you. If it is one that players like, then
>>they will play your game.
>My code of ethics is subjective but within established MUD norms benefical
>to the common player. The 'game' is built for players. Implementors
>maintain the game. Therefore Implementors maintain the game for players.
I think another post said it, but I'll repeat. Who are you to dictate
the motivations of imps?
>>Actually, you also have another right. You can offer your ideas about mud
>>ethics all you want and try to convince people not to play on muds that
>>don't follow them. What a fun time.
>My Dear, Berek... You do me a grave injustice. I never encourage people
>to stop playing muds that don't follow my ethics. If players enjoy playing
>the kind of mud which disrespects them that is their choice. And you know
>I respect player choices. After all they should be where they get the most
>entertainment.
More bovine excrement. ;) It is so common on newsnet for someone to
spend pages upon pages making attacks, then try to claim they are just
"discussing" not "attacking." You are not just encouraging people to
stop playing muds that don't follow your "ethics." You are attacking
the character of the implementors of such muds. Of course, you are
perfectly withing your rights to do so, as I am in calling it nonsense.
Christopher R. Boggs
>gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
>> Imp your mud your way, we'll Imp ours in our ways. Don't make yourself
>>look like a religious fanatic. I just dont want to be "saved" right now.
>Yea, brother... I much rather would play the part of fanatic then status-quo
>seeker. Call me a prophet of change if you will. Your entire post leaves
>me feeling that you realize what I say is on a higher plain then the polimudics
>of some games. Yet you 'just dont want to be saved right now.' Very well
>brother. I can wait. Just repent of your wicked ways and all shall be
>forgiven. Mail me (mcda...@u.washingon.edu) when you feel ready.
*writhes on the ground in submition*
Heh heh......We got another cult here folks! *laugh*
I'm looking forward to reading the flamage. Have fun. =]
Henry McDaniel
>In article <1omkks...@shelley.u.washington.edu> mcda...@stein.u.washington.edu (Henry McDaniel) writes:
>>gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
>>I am not attempting to write a DikuMUD constitution.. however this cascade of
>>call/response activity has re-charged my desire to create a foundation which
>>will one day be the standard all MUDS are judged by. I will neither be judge
>>or jury but rather your brother, promoting better social standrads for games
>>at all levels.
[deleted...]
>You are such a FASCIST!!!!!! Can't you hear the intolerance?? You are so
>convinced that you're right that you'd be willing to step on anyone and
>anything that disagrees with you. You're just as much of a tyrant as any
>mud implementor that you despise so much!
Have I placed a gun to your back and told you to "conform" ? Have I
gone onto anyone's mud and incited popular revolt? The answer is NO.
Sir, I do not despise mud implementors.... I despise polimudics.
I have faith in my belief that we hold certain obligations to the real
people behind the characters that play our games.
If you disagree with this, that is your right.
I have never considered respectful public debate "intolerant."
Someone else mentioned that I'm the new implementor on the block....
this is somewhat true. However I've been a mud implementor for over
a year now. That makes me the elder to quite a few mud Implementors.
I choose not to evoke such minor differences as 'experience' in being
an implementor because regardless of one's experience in an area of life
there shall and always will be a proper and just way of of conducting
one's self. Those that say there 'is not' are welcome to their beliefs.
Lastly I wish to point out that the goal of my postings ceased to
'accuse' Abbaddon after my 2nd letter. Ever since I have been
dicussing MUD ethics. Those that thought otherwise should re-read
them.
Ahhhh.... I suppose all of this has been a nuclear flame war.
I think enough has been posted under the heading of 'Adversary at Temple.'
mic...@dv349-3c.berkeley.edu
A mud is a party. The imps and the machine providers are the hosts, and the
players are the guests. Apparently you don't like the party Abaddon is
throwing over at Adversary and you're starting your own.
Why don't you tell us some more about Stellar and what it's going to be like,
and when it's going to open? And quit WHINING about some mud you aren't
playing any more?
Furey
Merc Industries
mic...@webworm.berkeley.edu
Steve Lumetta
>I apologise for this lengthy reply and dragging this junk out, but I
>can't let it lie "as is".
>
>>his roots... and thats easy enough to do with all the work we must do. Yet
>>through it all we must serve those that play our games. And it has become my
>>misson to improve the lot of muddlers.
>>
> Serve? What now I am in their employ? No longer am I `merely' obligated,
>but now I must serve them? While I must agree that one should devote a
I think Mr. McDaniel has given all of us a veiled offer of employment.
While others will doubtless expect to discuss remuneration with him
individually, I expect no less than $80/hour for my time, including
stressful activity. And, of course, I expect back pay for the last
two years.
Your humble servant (got that check in the mail yet. Henry?),
Steve
Me
Sorry, but I find it completly foolish that the idea that the imp
of a mud should serve the palyers 100%. That is lame. Yes, there should
be a certain amount of services that the imp should give to the
players. But, I think that a lot of that is taken care of by
the imp(s) by providing the game to begin with.
One thing I did learn though..that the more that you "give" to the
players, the more that they will demand in return.
I am not trying to sounds as if players do not matter and their
opinions aren;t worth shit, but when it becomes too demanding and a lot
of the actual skill in playing the game is lost..the whole purpose
of the game is both moot and dead..
reni
Mode
[ powermonger plea and replies deleted ]
Am I the only one who's noticed how badly multi-classing and extra
levels will fuck up a MUD?
JesusMaryMotherOfGod NO!!!!!!! ;) I (as in the I in IMHO) think the
majority of people on here whos posts are worth reading, other than for
comic relief of course, also think that multiclassing is LAME. what we
need is for someone to write a whole new mud with the atmosphere of a diku,
the flexability of an LP, and the RPG aspects of a tiny. that way we can
form a new news group so we wont waste this hack and slash diku space
with more innovative ideas.. ;). though diku is my favorite so far
if its not "suped up" and max/minned (with unmoderated multiclass and 2E10
levels....).
as usual, this is all just my opinion and open to public dismemberment...
-- Dan (insert by me, i cut .sigs, sorry Dan ;) )
-- Mode
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I "Rabbit's clever" said Pooh. I
I "Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit is clever." I
I "And he's got Brain." I o
I "Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brain." I/|>
I "I suppose," said Pooh, "that thats why he never understands anything." I 4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men
Jamieson Norrish
(Mode) writes:
JesusMaryMotherOfGod NO!!!!!!! ;) I (as in the I in IMHO) think the
majority of people on here whos posts are worth reading, other than for
comic relief of course, also think that multiclassing is LAME. what we
need is for someone to write a whole new mud with the atmosphere of a diku,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As an honest inquiry, what is the atmosphere of a diku? I haven't
played on many, and certainly for no real length of time, but I found
it to be just as bad (or good, depending on how you look at it) as
that of an lp. I would have hoped that the majority of the atmosphere
in a game was created by the descriptions of the objects, and the
roleplaying of the players, rather than the mechanics of the game,
which should be as unobtrusive as possible. IMHO, of course.
the flexability of an LP, and the RPG aspects of a tiny. that way we can
form a new news group so we wont waste this hack and slash diku space
with more innovative ideas.. ;). though diku is my favorite so far
if its not "suped up" and max/minned (with unmoderated multiclass and 2E10
levels....).
Another vote for rec.games.mud.worthwhile? :)
Actually, I think that a lot of posts would be much more interesting
if they were made less system specific, and then posted on
rec.games.mud.admin. In this way, *ideas* can be discussed in a forum
which has participation from members of all branches of the MU*
community, who might put a new perspective on things which might
otherwise be seen only from one point of view.
BTW, my apologies to those rgml readers who haven't been a party to
this thread up until this point; I just thought it might be of some
interest to people other than the diku people.
Jamie
Scarrow
>As an honest inquiry, what is the atmosphere of a diku? I haven't
>played on many, and certainly for no real length of time, but I found
>it to be just as bad (or good, depending on how you look at it) as
>that of an lp. I would have hoped that the majority of the atmosphere
>in a game was created by the descriptions of the objects, and the
>roleplaying of the players, rather than the mechanics of the game,
>which should be as unobtrusive as possible. IMHO, of course.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by unobtrusive ... Diku is primarily a hack
and slash game, but it comes closest, I think, to the feel of real fantasy
role-playing (something LP's don't, with their uncomplicated combat and
spells systems, etc. [this isn't to say some nice LP's don't exist ... I'm
talking about your basic defaults]). Now, most of the core of people I
consider friends agree that descriptions should also be an important aspect
of the game. What we see as a gap is between the sheer game playability of
Diku and the flexibility and creativeness of many of the social muds. It's
a gap that, we feel, can succesfully be bridged by a single game. There are
probably those who would argue that LP fits that gap, etc. All I can say
is, there are flaws in LP, just like there are flaws in Diku and many other
muds. We've spent a lot of time discussing ways around these various
problems, and it is that we're most interested in. A progressive mud, if
you will.
> the flexability of an LP, and the RPG aspects of a tiny. that way we can
> form a new news group so we wont waste this hack and slash diku space
> with more innovative ideas.. ;). though diku is my favorite so far
> if its not "suped up" and max/minned (with unmoderated multiclass and 2E10
> levels....).
>Another vote for rec.games.mud.worthwhile? :)
Hmmm, worthwhile is of course a tad obnoxious, but perhaps we could get
together something we could all agree upon (rec.games.mud.frp,
rec.games.mud.rpg, or rec.games.mud.skill ... I dunno, some word that tries
to incorporate it all ... rec.games.mud.progressive?).
>Actually, I think that a lot of posts would be much more interesting
>if they were made less system specific, and then posted on
>rec.games.mud.admin. In this way, *ideas* can be discussed in a forum
>which has participation from members of all branches of the MU*
>community, who might put a new perspective on things which might
>otherwise be seen only from one point of view.
Well, it's odd that much appears in rec.games.mud.diku, but interestingly
enough, Diku seems to have demonstrated to people that the sort of mud
they've always dreamed about could be made. So while arguing for a move to
rec.games.mud.admin isn't wrong, I find that more interesting stuff pops up
over here, which I end up replying too, etc.
>BTW, my apologies to those rgml readers who haven't been a party to
>this thread up until this point; I just thought it might be of some
>interest to people other than the diku people.
Most of my posts, unless replies to others, are fairly system inspecific.
Unfortunately, rec.games.mud.admin has never really seemed to fill the
appropriate niche (though I bet all of us playing around with these concepts
are subscribed to it).
>Jamie
--
Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
Jamieson Norrish
(Scarrow) writes:
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by unobtrusive ... Diku is primarily a hack
and slash game, but it comes closest, I think, to the feel of real fantasy
role-playing (something LP's don't, with their uncomplicated combat and
spells systems, etc. [this isn't to say some nice LP's don't exist ... I'm
talking about your basic defaults]).
Okay; I see what you mean about combat - however, I think that in
order to design a good system, it would need to be done almost from
the ground up. However, I don't know much about diku, so I could be
wrong on this point.
>Another vote for rec.games.mud.worthwhile? :)
Hmmm, worthwhile is of course a tad obnoxious, but perhaps we could
get together something we could all agree upon (rec.games.mud.frp,
rec.games.mud.rpg, or rec.games.mud.skill ... I dunno, some word
that tries to incorporate it all ... rec.games.mud.progressive?).
Sorry, I didn't mean for the "worthwhile" to be taken seriously. A new
group does sound good - my only reservation being about the demand for
it. Perhaps a mailing list is better?
Most of my posts, unless replies to others, are fairly system
inspecific. Unfortunately, rec.games.mud.admin has never really
seemed to fill the appropriate niche (though I bet all of us
playing around with these concepts are subscribed to it).
Yes; I post almost exclusively there simply because it seems to be the
most appropriate of the groups.
Jamie
David Gay
I took the original poster comment about on-line programming to mean
coding and not creation. With respect to this there is a mud called
mume that has a built in interpreter. I only saw a brief view of it
(Manwe was kind enough to show it to me one afternoon). It looked a
little like forth (stack oriented). While I didn't see the full language
the mobiles he showed me seem to indicate it was fairly advanced.
The language in question is called 'Mudlle' (don't ask) and has gone through
a few changes since when you saw it. It doesn't ressemble forth much anymore
(most people found the stack-oriented language too obscure), instead
it now has a more conventional syntax.
I plan on replacing all the special procedures in Mume with mudlle
code, but this will take some time.
Currently mudlle is only available to the highest level gods, and is
still incomplete. I have several things to do before it can be made
more widely available (eg a good way for gods to do text editing -
otherwise writing mudlle programs will be a pain).
Here is an example of what the code looks like:
wait_story = fn "Wait for food" ()
if (!telling)
[ actor = loremaster;
if (hungry_line)
[ say("Oh, it has been a long time since I have tasted real elf meat!");
hungry_line = 0 ]
else
[ say("If only my stomach was full, I could tell you a glorious story!");
hungry_line = 1 ] ];
register_every(wait_story, "Wait for food", 60)
David Gay - Owl on Mume
dg...@di.epfl.ch
Jerry Sievert
>just why all the flame? I didn't say you MUST, I said it is your duty.
>I have no power to enforce ethics, merely point out errors.
>
>It means just what it says: I call for MUD reform. I present the
>mentioned MUD ethic as a goal to achieve.
>
So, suddenly any work I do is no longer for myself, but for the greater
good of all those darned mudders who want to play... BULLSHIT! I code for
myself, not for some little freak who wants to sit on his ass and play mud for
24 hours a day (and yes, there are plenty).
>that was -fun- to play by yourself. As far as the universe every mud
>Implementor creates: Universes are a dime a dozen.. Quite frankly I
>can buy several for the free price of ftping. There have likely been
>more mud universes than there are presntly wizards.
Then build your own and don't tell us how to run ours!
>Tell me just what
>do you feel the market value of your universe IS? To put it politely
>you'd have to adopt some MUD ethics to attract anything apporaching
>'paying' players.
What do *I* care about paying players?!? It may be YOUR objective to get
players paying for other people's work, but *I* work for free, and have for a
LONG time (gee, I remember my first mud went up within days of Jeff Stine's)
and I don't care WHAT happens to your mud, but leave my work out of it!
>What does this mean exactly? Are you afraid of comittment? Cast your
>vote man. We are either for or against the notion that players have
>SOME basic rights (as do implementors.)
>
Players have rights?!? they have the right to leave the muds I work on and go
play your mud if they want to play with some hitler-like persona... THAT is
their right!
-Jerry, aka DM
John Brothers
>Well, all I mean is that Diku has a lot of the feel for the end user of a
>typical dice based system ... of course, for the implementor it can be a real
>nightmare (I've been hacking around with one of late and spent much of
>yesterday hacking modifications to allow more powerful special procedures, for
>example). It was the system that inspired me, and perhaps a few others. Kind
>of surprising when I'd looked at most of the other variations before. It
>wasn't until Diku that I began to really get down and dirty.
I never really looked at any of the other types of mud, it just happened
that I got bored one day, and tried to connect to temple. Shortly thereafter,
I decided to start my own. I agree with you here, Diku does give a lot of
the flavor of most fantasy rpgs - i.e. lots of combat. And as more variables
get thrown into the system, its starts to get a little more involved mentally.
Puzzles are of course, limited by the global shouts and tells. Area puzzles
can be explained by someone who has been there before, and fixed quests can
be answered by anyone who has already solved them. This puts a big damper
on the "thinking" aspect of diku muds, and is an argument for a "new" kind of
mud that doesn't have these features.
It would be interesting to discuss what was desired in a "new" mud system.
Here's some of the plan that I have been working on:
#1, cpu time is cheap. You might as well make the mud signifigantly more
complicated combat-wise. Computers don't get bored looking up tables.
#2, memory is more expensive, but still, relatively cheap. Big muds use up
lots of memory, but this isn't intended to approach the size of a big
mud for years. At which point, the memory usage will drop :)
#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
#4 The whole damn thing should be object oriented (I think "scarrow" has
discussed this before :)
#5 some sort of scripting should be provided, to allow for longer-term
trends. This is probably the trickiest aspect of the whole system,
considering the amount of parsing, logic, and built-in functions that
would have to be included just to simply make a group of orcs go and
raid a town when they got hungry.
#6 Monsters, but more specifically dumb animals should behave more like
normal animals. The foxes should eat the damn rabbits, and the rabbits
should eat the damn grass :). And this should all be a "hard-wired"
response.
Comments.
Alan Krantz
>
>#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
> There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
>
Yea, I've talked to Valiar about this (who talked to DD who is Scarrow)
and it's pretty easy to make things run at their own speed. When i
finish up school (if I still have an interest) I'll take a stab at
having things be event driven rather than time driven. I think it will
be as cheap (if not cheaper) than the current diku polling routine. The
one thing that worries me is that un-synched events (esp in combat)
might be confusing to the players. On the surface it sounds nice that
differnt weapons and skills give differnt mobs/players different
(non-incremental) attack rates - and this is extermely easy to implement
- however I have a sinking feeling that it might really confuse people
when fighting in a group. I've seen several muds that have changed the
combat messages to be much more elaborate - things like your blow draws
huge amount of blood - from the standard you tickle, hit, ..., massacre
messages and found that they did little to enchance the game and made
combat very confusing. The other thing i wonder is if it will really
make the game more interesting or entertaining. (Please note that there
are other reason to make things event driven - I'm just focusing on the
issue of non-sycn combat).
>#4 The whole damn thing should be object oriented (I think "scarrow" has
> discussed this before :)
I really don't follow this - that is exactly what you would like to see
in behavioral change.
>
>#5 some sort of scripting should be provided, to allow for longer-term
> trends. This is probably the trickiest aspect of the whole system,
> considering the amount of parsing, logic, and built-in functions that
> would have to be included just to simply make a group of orcs go and
> raid a town when they got hungry.
>
Easier said than done ;)
>#6 Monsters, but more specifically dumb animals should behave more like
> normal animals. The foxes should eat the damn rabbits, and the rabbits
> should eat the damn grass :). And this should all be a "hard-wired"
> response.
I classified 6 as being the same as 5.
>Comments.
I never comment on things.
atk
Gnort, God of Chaos
>In article <1osp75...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu> j...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu (John Brothers) writes:
>>
>>#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
>> There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
>>
>Yea, I've talked to Valiar about this (who talked to DD who is Scarrow)
>and it's pretty easy to make things run at their own speed. When i
>finish up school (if I still have an interest) I'll take a stab at
>having things be event driven rather than time driven.
DikuII is event-driven. It's good to see we aren't completely wrong ;)
>I think it will
>be as cheap (if not cheaper) than the current diku polling routine.
And I think it is. DikuI basically suffers from bad algorithms ;)
[Non-sync combat debated.]
Yeah. Complexity in the system might easily put off some players.
I do believe the simplicity/complexity balance of fighting on a standard
dikumud is the key to the system's succes (That and the end-user feel of
speed of course).
However, I also feel this is a dead end, and that we need to think in new
ways. It ain't easy, and many players give up on new systems without passing
on relevant criticism. *sigh*
>>#4 The whole damn thing should be object oriented (I think "scarrow" has
>> discussed this before :)
>I really don't follow this - that is exactly what you would like to see
>in behavioral change.
I don't follow that, Alan ;)
I think object orientation would be a logical step for muds. (And don't tell
me LP-muds are object-oriented already. I kinda know ;)
The concepts underneath the interface visualizes better somehow. *shrug*
Matter of taste, but if I had the time, I'd redo the 50000+ lines of dikuII
in C++ ;) (Though I probably wouldn't become too popular among the others :)
>>
>>#5 some sort of scripting should be provided, to allow for longer-term
>> trends. This is probably the trickiest aspect of the whole system,
>> considering the amount of parsing, logic, and built-in functions that
>> would have to be included just to simply make a group of orcs go and
>> raid a town when they got hungry.
>>
>Easier said than done ;)
Not really. It's all a matter of realization of your own limits. We can't
expect "real" artificial intelligence, but a lot of it _is_ possible in
dikuI with the right spec procs, and in dikuII zone-creators has access to
a limited mobile-programming language, which allows people with little
computer-experience to make some very interesting things indeed. This
mobile-behaviourial input from non-computer people will be very giving,
I think. It also gets a lot of work off the shoulders of the implementors :)
>>#6 Monsters, but more specifically dumb animals should behave more like
>> normal animals. The foxes should eat the damn rabbits, and the rabbits
>> should eat the damn grass :). And this should all be a "hard-wired"
>> response.
>I classified 6 as being the same as 5.
Me too :)
Making mobiles behave in a certain way is indeed very easy under both
diku-systems. All it takes is imagination. (And some coding experience in
dikuI :)
>>Comments.
>I never comment on things.
/*
* But comments make everything so much clearer, Alan!
*/
(Ouch! ;-)
>atk
Lars
--
Gnort @ { DikuII | Unicorn | Discworld } gn...@daimi.aau.dk
Dean Gaudet
>#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
> There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
What you want is more or less a micro-kernel with event driven
multitasking... DeathDealer suggested 'co-operative pre-emption' to me.
I still think it'd be nice to have it completely pre-emptive. The
big issue here is how do you get multithreading (light-weight multitasking)
in operating systems that don't support it? (which are the majority right now).
There is a package called uSystem at UofW (try watmsg.uwaterloo.ca I belive)
but it requires some licensing to use.
Another issue is what do you assign a thread to? It would seem 'clear'
that you could assign a thread to every player; but you can't extend that
to mobiles. If you have >2000 threads running the system overhead would
be way too high. So perhaps this whole idea is flawed.
>#4 The whole damn thing should be object oriented (I think "scarrow" has
> discussed this before :)
Definately. We (Arctic) made a move to a message-based system. Right
now our specials work with messages that are issued at key points in
the game. But ideally it would be done with object oriented techniques.
The system is very crude right now; but it's been serving our purposes.
For example, in the code that does a 'wear' a MSG_WEAR is issued to
the special... in the code that kills a mobile a MSG_CROAK is issued
to the special. We've just been adding messages as necessary; but in
an object-oriented situation we could just override an inherited
routine... it'd be more efficient.
>#5 some sort of scripting should be provided, to allow for longer-term
> trends. This is probably the trickiest aspect of the whole system,
> considering the amount of parsing, logic, and built-in functions that
> would have to be included just to simply make a group of orcs go and
> raid a town when they got hungry.
>
>#6 Monsters, but more specifically dumb animals should behave more like
> normal animals. The foxes should eat the damn rabbits, and the rabbits
> should eat the damn grass :). And this should all be a "hard-wired"
> response.
These sound the same... On the lines of scripting... anyone thought of
interfacing Tcl/Tk/Wish/whatever it's called to diku?
Dean
Jamieson Norrish
Well, all I mean is that Diku has a lot of the feel for the end
user of a typical dice based system.
Ah; maybe that's why I don't like the diku's I've seen. Then again, I
haven't been satisfied with any MU* I've seen, so maybe it's just me.
I favour a game which doesn't seem like people have chances of
success, and that if only I can get my skills up slightly higher, I'll
be able to take on the <whatever>.
Hmm, I think I may have misinterpreted what you mean by the "feel...
of a typical dice based system", but I'm sure you'll explain it to me
again if I've got it wrong. :)
I didn't mean for you to think I meant I thought "worthwhile" was
to be taken seriously, but with all the talk perhaps a newsgroup
might not be a bad idea.
So, if anyone takes this to heart, I guess I am thinking about this
a bit seriously.
I'm all for it!
I seem to get better overall response when I post initially to
rec.games.mud.diku, as the types of people who play Diku are often
interested in progressive ideas (this isn't to say that everyone
who reads here is, but certainly it seems a fair number of
interesting people hang out "here").
So *that's* why no one replies to my posts on rgma. :)
Jamie
Scarrow
>[Non-sync combat debated.]
>Yeah. Complexity in the system might easily put off some players.
>I do believe the simplicity/complexity balance of fighting on a standard
>dikumud is the key to the system's succes (That and the end-user feel of
>speed of course).
>However, I also feel this is a dead end, and that we need to think in new
>ways. It ain't easy, and many players give up on new systems without passing
>on relevant criticism. *sigh*
This is true to some extent. However, the complexity of the fighting system
can be hidden from the user. That is to say, it is possible to make the game
mechanics more realistic, more detailed, etc., yet preserve the sort of Diku
feel. I don't find several combat rounds going at once to be too
disconcerting myself and, after all, combat should be a bit unnerving now and
then. :)
>I don't follow that, Alan ;)
>I think object orientation would be a logical step for muds. (And don't tell
>me LP-muds are object-oriented already. I kinda know ;)
>The concepts underneath the interface visualizes better somehow. *shrug*
>Matter of taste, but if I had the time, I'd redo the 50000+ lines of dikuII
>in C++ ;) (Though I probably wouldn't become too popular among the others :)
First, I'd like to point out that object oriented can be looked at in a
couple of ways. One is the concept of treating everything as an object,
rather than having distinct classes for mobiles, rooms and items. The other
one (the one I suspect we're talking about) refers, of course, to some of the
design principles. In reality, the idea of treating all types as one single
type has the sort of feel of object orientation in the design/programming
sense. Personally, for the sake of portability and my own biases, I prefer
to use C. However, OO design is not impossible in C (and not even that
difficult, just a little more involved at the lower levels). Indeed, I've
seen at least one book on object-oriented design which discusses this (damn,
wish I could afford it *grin*).
>Not really. It's all a matter of realization of your own limits. We can't
>expect "real" artificial intelligence, but a lot of it _is_ possible in
>dikuI with the right spec procs, and in dikuII zone-creators has access to
>a limited mobile-programming language, which allows people with little
>computer-experience to make some very interesting things indeed. This
>mobile-behaviourial input from non-computer people will be very giving,
>I think. It also gets a lot of work off the shoulders of the implementors :)
Mobiles can be made pretty smart. I've demonstrated some state machines
(though never got around to sticking one in place for a long time) which
proved that you could make even simple mobiles behave much more
intelligently. It can be more processor intensive, but in my experiences
CPU performance is most likely to be degraded by poor algorithms, not by
intricate designs.
As far as a language goes, for my design I'm planning on starting with
hard coded functions which are hooked similarly to language calls. When the
language goes in, the compiled bits will go through some sort of virtual
machine (the point being that I can attach both hard coded and virtually
coded routines and interchange/call between them at will).
>>>#6 Monsters, but more specifically dumb animals should behave more like
>>> normal animals. The foxes should eat the damn rabbits, and the rabbits
>>> should eat the damn grass :). And this should all be a "hard-wired"
>>> response.
>Me too :)
>Making mobiles behave in a certain way is indeed very easy under both
>diku-systems. All it takes is imagination. (And some coding experience in
>dikuI :)
One of the other concepts I've been working over is that of a database driven
system. The system will have several databases (it will know how to maintain
databases, find chunks, store/retrieve structure data, etc.), allowing me to
reference between them to build tables of static data that apply to objects.
For example, a liquid database might contain liquid color, name, keywords,
density, etc. An object containing the liquid could restrict itself to data
about the amount of liquid, the liquid's number in the liquids database, etc.
Anyway, what this really refers to is Jhalavar's (aka Gothmog) posting
long ago about the possibilities of racial hatreds, etc. I plan on making a
racial database which will allow mobiles to have lists of allies and enemies,
information about behavior patterns such as eating, etc. Amibitious, but
doable, I think.
Jamieson Norrish
(Scarrow) writes:
[Quest example for probabilities deleted, along with everything else.]
Yes, I agree that probabilities are a vital component of the game, and
that they can be hidden. However, I think that there is an attitude
which this engenders, and that attitude is that if you "weigh the
odds" correctly, you'll succeed. Now, to use your example, I would
much rather do everything I possibly could to make the climb safe, and
if there was another way to go, then I would take it. I don't think,
for me at least, it would be a case of "Let's pop along and practice
this skill on a safe wall until I get pretty good". Most people, in
real situations, don't think like that, I would guess.
So what I'm trying to say (badly), is that reducing things to the
level of mechanics means that the player becomes divorced from her
character. I would much rather the attitude was "*gulp* That's a big
cliff - one slip and I'm a gonner. Let's see if I can find another
way, or get a rope." That is, do something to make it seem like an
almost certain success, rather than say, "Hmmm, I figure I could make
this over half the times I try, if I train a bit more that'll improve
it, and a rope will make it almost a dead cert.".
Am I babbling again?
Jamie
Scarrow
>In article <1osp75...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu> j...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu (John Brothers) writes:
>>#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
>> There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
>What you want is more or less a micro-kernel with event driven
>multitasking... DeathDealer suggested 'co-operative pre-emption' to me.
>I still think it'd be nice to have it completely pre-emptive. The
>big issue here is how do you get multithreading (light-weight multitasking)
>in operating systems that don't support it? (which are the majority right now).
>There is a package called uSystem at UofW (try watmsg.uwaterloo.ca I belive)
>but it requires some licensing to use.
Actually, I suggested two methods. One was the micro-kernel (I've written
my own cooperative one which could be extended to pre-emptive if I decide it
is neccesary) and the other, discussed with Valiar and others, was the idea
of keeping an event queue the size of the longest event delay you want in
pulses. When you want to, say, request that an event occur in 12 pulses you
fill out an event structure and then tack it onto the list at:
(current_pulse + delay) % queue_size. Then, each pulse you advance
current_pulse by one, mod it by the queue_size and then strip off and
process the events. Several optimizations to make list processing more
efficient, etc., are of course available. In addition, since you know the
entire queue of events will be emptied at once, there's no need to remove
elements nested between other elements, etc., but can instead strip the
entire list. This system should work well for a setup where variable delays
are desired and you want to maintain a typically polling situation (it would,
for example, be good for a Diku), rather than trying something like threads.
>Another issue is what do you assign a thread to? It would seem 'clear'
>that you could assign a thread to every player; but you can't extend that
>to mobiles. If you have >2000 threads running the system overhead would
>be way too high. So perhaps this whole idea is flawed.
The design I've proposed uses a thread for each player, a thread for each
special running asynchronously (i.e., not invoked by the issuing of a
command, which means the special can run in the context of the invoking
user's thread), and a few maintenance threads (one to clean up stacks after
threads exit, one to process ordinary mobile operations, one to keep track
of delays [I'll probably need to use a delay system like the above mentioned
for cases in which a thread is not able to be delayed]). The whole idea is
to try to keep the thread overhead as low as possible while trying to
maximize the advantage of having threads in the first place.
SGC...@psuvm.psu.edu
says:
>Here is an example of what the code looks like:
>
> wait_story = fn "Wait for food" ()
> if (!telling)
> [ actor = loremaster;
> if (hungry_line)
> [ say("Oh, it has been a long time since I have tasted real elf
>meat!");
> hungry_line = 0 ]
> else
> [ say("If only my stomach was full, I could tell you a glorious
>story!");
> hungry_line = 1 ] ];
> register_every(wait_story, "Wait for food", 60)
I think something like this would be very fun to use, but unless you know how
to program in general (C, Pascal, whatever) this looks like Greek.
And most people creating for a mud usually don't have the patience to sit there
and read documentation on how to do things. With a system such as this, the
only ones exploiting its full potential would be those with code access in the
first place. Nothing wrong with that of course, just a matter of preference
whether you want to do this coding on or off line.
-- Scott
David Gay
In article <DGAY.93Ma...@disun46.epfl.ch>, dg...@di.epfl.ch (David Gay)
says:
>Here is an example of what the code looks like:
>
I think something like this would be very fun to use, but unless you know how
to program in general (C, Pascal, whatever) this looks like Greek.
And most people creating for a mud usually don't have the patience to sit there
and read documentation on how to do things. With a system such as this, the
only ones exploiting its full potential would be those with code access in the
first place. Nothing wrong with that of course, just a matter of preference
whether you want to do this coding on or off line.
-- Scott
I don't quite agree:
- to use this language will indeed require general programming skills.
But then it is intended as a general programming language, so that
isn't very surprising. I haven't heard of a programming language which
is trivial to learn, easy for beginners to use, and general enough
(and anybody who suggests basic will be shot).
- providing an online programming language *does* increase the number
of people who can produce useful code for a mud (obviously, I don't
expect that all gods will want to code, but currently the only people
who can reasonably do anything are the people with local access, ie
four of us for MUME):
o the code can be written by people who are far away. I am currently
improving the editing facilities to make this realistic.
o the language cannot crash the mud. This is very important, as
anybody who has hacked diku code will know.
o learning to use the language should be far easier than learning to
modify the diku code, which is full of undocumented assumptions, and
which is in general lacking in documentation.
- one last advantage is that the code can be modified without
rebooting the game ...
David Gay - Owl @ MUME
dg...@di.epfl.ch
SGC...@psuvm.psu.edu
Brothers) says:
>
>#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
> There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
>
advantages to such a system.
- Set up default procedures for each event, then override these when
necessary. This would make dealing with non-standard behavior (specials)
much easier in most cases.
- Quite easy to delay processing of an event
What would be/are some of the other advantages to such a system?
-- Scott
Alan Krantz
>In article <1osp75...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu>, j...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu (John
>Brothers) says:
>>
>>#3 "ticks" that control when things happen aren't really necessary.
>> There's no reason everything shouldn't go at its own speed.
>>
>An event-driven system would be interesting to see... I can see a few
>advantages to such a system.
>
>
>What would be/are some of the other advantages to such a system?
>
Well, just a minor example - but - person A could get an attack every 10th
of a tick and person B could get an attack every 9th of a tick. I'm sure
you can think of more - uh - er - other - useful things that could be
done...
Steve Lumetta
>advantages to such a system.
>What would be/are some of the other advantages to such a system?
>
Well, I think the main advantages are the lack of predictable behavior
(events can occur at any time) and the more even distribution of CPU
usage. I know of very few DikuMUD's which don't lag every (game) hour
on the hour--by distributing the work across all pulses, you remove
the tendency to lag on some pulses. Of course there is overhead,
so average CPU usage will go up if you do the same things, but
better event policies can be implemented as well (e.g., only queue
healing events when an individual is hurt--with 100 players and 900
mobs, one might expect an 80% reduction in CPU time spent healing).
The most annoying feature so far is the fact that since most combat
events no longer occur on the same pulse, a lot of extraneous text
is generated in the form of prompts:
H100% S100% M100%>
Nilly punches you in the leg.
H90% S100% M100%>
You fail to punch Nilly.
H90% S100% M100%>
Nilly punches you in the leg.
H80% S100% M100%>
You fail to punch Nilly.
H80% S100% M100%>
As you can see, there are a lot of prompts, and this is only a
one-on-one combat. Partly because of this, and partly because
it's more realistic, I shall likely restrict combat information
to you, your opponent, and one other individual of your choice--
no one could then keep an eye on everyone while fighting.
--Steve
Chris McClellen
>In article <1osp75...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu>, j...@snoopy.cis.ufl.edu (John
>Brothers) says:
>> [ YEAH YEAH ]
>An event-driven system would be interesting to see... I can see a few
>advantages to such a system.
> - Set up default procedures for each event, then override these when
> necessary. This would make dealing with non-standard behavior (specials)
> much easier in most cases.
Finally, Hints of OOP come to diku.
> - Quite easy to delay processing of an event
Could do that now, but events make it cleaner.
>What would be/are some of the other advantages to such a system?
Well, a good form of "IOC" (Inter Object Communication) could be devised,
which would make for an awsome "built in language." Objects could talk
to each other via events, rather than having to write lengthy statements to
sync a special.
EX: Need to kill mob A to have a magical barrier dissolve. Mob A dies,
Generate an Event that looks like:
(warning: overloaded operator statement below)
eventManager << MOB_DEATH << thisMob;
of just ... postEvent(eventType, thoismob)
And the code for the room has its event handler that does:
... handleEvent(event, infoptr) ...
{
if (event.type == MOB_DEATH)
if (MobType(infoptr)->mobnumber == (mob A's number)) {
dissolvePortalForNextGroupThru();
clearEvent(event);
}
GRoom::handleEvent(event,infoptr)
}
Of coruse, this example assumes you have your mud code Object oriented,
and that specials, etc, are derived from Generic objects, and all objects
are derived from a central one that includes virtual primitives, such as
a handleEvent, broadcastEvent, postEvent, and the like. Also, it assumes
that you have some coherent event queue system that is synced across multiple
threads (should you want to alleviate the problems of serial game loops).
Ie, postEvent could take the two arguments, and build an event structure entry
based on the conditions of tha game + the type & infoptr.
Oh well, just my 2 cents.
>-- Scott
--
Chris McClellen | "If at first you dont succeed... re
Georgia Institute of Technology | #define success..." - Anon.
ch...@cad.gatech.edu