Hatred of novels -- was Re: RPG supplements I just sent out.
DC4...@american.edu
mega...@world.std.com (MegaZone) writes:
>>universe.
>
>BURN IT!
Whoa! What's with the sudden comdenmnation of the novels? I personally have
always appreciated the novel version of things as canon over other sources,
particularly when certain inconsistencies arise from the way the show was
produced. (which no one is to blame for, but considering how each episode
was written and how the words had to fit the character's already animated
mouths AND tie three totally unrelated series together, it's inevitable)
The non-canon sources I can think of in my opinion is the RPG book's version
of history in the series, with the Invid returning after the Regis' departure,
which in my opinion makes the whole final conclusion she comes to in the end
worthless. The books are well thought out, generally consistent with eachother
and do not contradict anything from the original series. They did end up
gettign a bit confused with the Sentinels references before those books were
written, but that's to be expected, and from what I heard here, James Luceno
is going to correct such things for the new editions. I find no reason to not
accept the books as canon, aside from the fact that they weren't written by
Macek (which could conceivably bother some people, like STAR WARS fans who
hate non-Lucas stuff)
I will agree that End of th eCircle was a flawed story that didn't go any-
where, but that doesn't negate the rest of the books.
>
>*NEVER* base an argument on End of the Circle, it is the most thoroughly
>hated piece of Robotech material.
>
uh, no. The most hated and absolutely worst piece of material has to be
LANCER'S ROCKERS...
>
>Arg! I want McKinney's head on a platter - at least Luceno. It seems
>the evidence indicates that he is the one trashing things.
>
>--
> mega...@world.std.com mega...@hotblack.gweep.net (508) 752-2164
>"I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!"
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MegaZone
>Whoa! What's with the sudden comdenmnation of the novels? I personally have
For many years the hardcore RT fans have hated the novels, this is nothing
new.
>always appreciated the novel version of things as canon over other sources,
No. The show comes first, and the novels DO contradict the footage MANY
times. This has been covered again and again, we built up quite an
impressive list of them.
The show is the first source, the animation sheets and storyboards -
which some fans have - are second, the RPG - at least the original
coverage - is third, and then the novels.
The novels have the most contradictions. The RPG only went far afield
when it came to the Invid return and Lancer's Rockers.
I have nearly every piece of robotech material produced.
>The non-canon sources I can think of in my opinion is the RPG book's version
>of history in the series, with the Invid returning after the Regis' departure,
Up until that point, the return, it is rather accurate. That was a slip.
As opposed to McKinney who actually contradicts dates given in the series.
>worthless. The books are well thought out, generally consistent with eachothe
I'l give them that much, and 1-12 are decent at that. But It started to
go downhill with the Sentinels.
>and do not contradict anything from the original series. They did end up
Very wrong. Even the first 12 books contradict the series many, many
times. If someone else has the list, please post it. I'm sick of this
topic.
>written, but that's to be expected, and from what I heard here, James Luceno
>is going to correct such things for the new editions. I find no reason to not
Yes, he is, and that is PISSING OFF MORE PEOPLE! Becase it is the LATER
books that are screwed up! He should be changing THEM not the early ones.
He is basically an egotistical git who wants to bend the universe to be
what HE wants it to be. Most likely a major factor in Brian Daley leaving.
>I will agree that End of th eCircle was a flawed story that didn't go any-
>where, but that doesn't negate the rest of the books.
No, not on it's own. though I will say that it should be totally ignored.
Book 19 has a LOT of continuity flaws. We tore it to shreds on the
RT group and list when it came out. And the Sentinels have a lot too.
>uh, no. The most hated and absolutely worst piece of material has to be
>LANCER'S ROCKERS...
No, more people read the novels and comment on them. LR was just silly.
Technoknight
In article <17053CABCS...@american.edu>, DC4...@american.edu writes:
|>In article <1994101818...@world.std.com>
|>mega...@world.std.com (MegaZone) writes:
|>>BURN IT!
|>Whoa! What's with the sudden comdenmnation of the novels?
|>
|>where, but that doesn't negate the rest of the books.
|>>
|>>*NEVER* base an argument on End of the Circle, it is the most thoroughly
|>>hated piece of Robotech material.
|>>
|>uh, no. The most hated and absolutely worst piece of material has to be
|>LANCER'S ROCKERS...
Ok, I'm the guy who's letter to Chris Meadows seems to have started all of
this...
I take the TV series as being the only 'canon' Robotech. The McKinney books
happen to fall into what I liked about Robotech, so _in_my_own_personal_
theories_I_accept_them_too_. That's _personal_, folks. To me, book #18
wrapped up the "loose threads" of where the Hunters went in the last two
episodes, and what happened to Scott Bernard. Everyone has their own
opinion, of course. I noticed that a lot of people didn't like the spiritual
hoopla that Daley/the-other-guy gave Protoculture.
What _I_ didn't like was the way the Pallidium Books just assumed "oh, the
Invid come back to Earth." Dependency on the Flowers or no, I think the
Invid would have been found half a galaxy away, if at all. IMHO, McKinney
and the RPG book "Robotech II: The Sentinels" did a good job of showing the
mecha evolution of the Invid. They did lousy on details like populations,
time to train, etc.
If people insist on having Invid to fight on the Earth, alternate timelines
offer all the room they need. Me, I'll take the Post-Protoculture
possibilities given with the SDF-4 in the END OF THE CIRCLE. They were
going to fold-jump to the Andromedea Galaxy, after all. That should open
up enough aliens to fight right there, with all those new technologies that
the fans dreamed up. (I have this personal dream about Robotech mecha
adapted to fit Transformer energon, etc.)
(With all this talk, I wonder if I should re-post my Chronology file. I
stopped when people started talking against it too much. But now...)
Also, don't forget that in Japan, ROBOTECH is actually three entirely
different series. Having just seen MACROSS PLUS (without subtitles, drat),
I think there is plenty of room in alternate timelines to fight the
Zentraedi millions or the Invid horde.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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noted - although Jerrold my twin may think them too.
Jeremy H. Pace | The Vindicator Eph. 6:12
jhp...@eos.ncsu.edu | Technoknight MS V in Wolfpack ROTC
NC State, Raleigh | Computer Engineering Springer on the new TF MUSH!
http://www2.ncsu.edu/eos/users/j/jhpace1/Mosaic/index_JHP.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Parks Swaim
>The show is the first source, the animation sheets and storyboards -
>which some fans have - are second, the RPG - at least the original
>coverage - is third, and then the novels.
What about the comics from Comico? I'd put them before the RPG.
--
Mike "Agent of Chaos" Swaim
sw...@owlnet.rice.edu | Disclamer: I lie. | "Boingie"^4 -YW&D
If you know why a gay person is like a Visa Gold Card,
PLEASE TELL ME.
MegaZone
>What about the comics from Comico? I'd put them before the RPG.
Sorry, forgot about those, I would too. Actually *most* (not quite all)
ofthe comics are very accurate, moreso than the novels, and the RPG in
many ways.
Ryo-Oh-Ki
>From: jhp...@eos.ncsu.edu (Technoknight)
>Subject: Re: Hatred of novels -- was Re: RPG supplements I just sent out.
>Date: 18 Oct 1994 20:03:21 GMT
>In article <17053CABCS...@american.edu>, DC4...@american.edu writes:
>|>In article <1994101818...@world.std.com>
>|>mega...@world.std.com (MegaZone) writes:
>|>>BURN IT!
>|>Whoa! What's with the sudden comdenmnation of the novels?
>|>
>|>I will agree that End of th eCircle was a flawed story that didn't go any-
>|>where, but that doesn't negate the rest of the books.
>|>>
>|>>*NEVER* base an argument on End of the Circle, it is the most thoroughly
>|>>hated piece of Robotech material.
>|>>
>|>uh, no. The most hated and absolutely worst piece of material has to be
>|>LANCER'S ROCKERS...
>Ok, I'm the guy who's letter to Chris Meadows seems to have started all of
>this...
>I take the TV series as being the only 'canon' Robotech. The McKinney books
>happen to fall into what I liked about Robotech, so _in_my_own_personal_
>theories_I_accept_them_too_. That's _personal_, folks. To me, book #18
>wrapped up the "loose threads" of where the Hunters went in the last two
>episodes, and what happened to Scott Bernard. Everyone has their own
>opinion, of course. I noticed that a lot of people didn't like the spiritual
>hoopla that Daley/the-other-guy gave Protoculture.
Whoa. This is, like, sooooo cool. Like, a kindred spirit on the net. Waow.
Or, maybe not. Unlike everyone else I know, I feel that the books only get
better as the numbers get higher, with the possible exception of about
eighty percent of End of the Circle. Somehow, I find the whole cosmic
tragedy of the Zentraedi as presented in the Sentinels very poignant
(Breetai going to his eons-old home, dying a glorious death against the
leader of the race he had inadvertantly wronged so long ago...).
>What _I_
didn't like was the way the Pallidium Books just assumed "oh, the>Invid come
back to Earth." Dependency on the Flowers or no, I think the>Invid would have
been found half a galaxy away, if at all. IMHO, McKinney>and the RPG book
"Robotech II: The Sentinels" did a good job of showing the>mecha evolution of
the Invid. They did lousy on details like populations,>time to train, etc.
Not only that, but Siembieda can't write a game system to save his life.
Random hit tables are UNREALISTIC?!! I'd be happy to use the source material,
which is, in it's own way, an alternate universe, if the system were remotely
playable. I was hoping for changes in the Macross II system, but no such luck.
>If people insist on having Invid to fight on the Earth, alternate
timelines>offer all the room they need. Me, I'll take the
Post-Protoculture>possibilities given with the SDF-4 in the END OF THE CIRCLE.
They were>going to fold-jump to the Andromedea Galaxy, after all. That
should open>up enough aliens to fight right there, with all those new
technologies that>the fans dreamed up. (I have this personal dream about
Robotech mecha>adapted to fit Transformer energon, etc.)
Sorry, I don't think that's the point at all. Robotech is OVER. At least from
Mckinney's viewpoint. No protoculture, no mecha, hopefully no BEMs to shoot
at. Personally, I like the idea of a no-loose-ends, forward-to-a-bright-future
closing to the great saga. Don't put this down to naivete, please. I know that
it's not a friendly galaxy. But this is escapist fiction, after all, and a
happy ending for our heroes isn't too much to ask for. I'd rather have that
than have Rick Hunter become another endless Captain Kirk-style hero, doing
cosmically great deeds so often that it finally becomes commonplace and
boring. Let heroes like Breetai have their ending, and let the survivors have
theirs.
Peter Walker
>In article <CxvuG...@world.std.com>
>mega...@world.std.com (MegaZone) writes:
>
>>>of history in the series, with the Invid returning after the Regis' departure,
>>
>>Up until that point, the return, it is rather accurate. That was a slip.
>>As opposed to McKinney who actually contradicts dates given in the series.
>
>dialog. The whole end of "To the Stars" dealt with the SDF-2 and mentioned
>it severel times. It was even implied that Lisa's control room was on the
>SDF-2. Did we ever see it? Of course not. That was not the case in the
>original Japanese version.
It's one thing to try to explain the contradictions in the show. It's quite
another to create contradictions of your own to support your own wacky
story ideas, and then to have the hubris t claim that you're the chronicler of
the 'one true Robotech story'.
>Do you have some kind of source here? Obviously he's not running wild.
>All 19 books are approved versions.
Authorized by a company only interested in money - not the integrity
of the story it originally put together. And there are a number of people on the
net who assert that Macek has claimed that the 'McKinney' duo was on their own -
either way, McKinney's story, especially after book 12, is not Robotech IMO.
>>Book 19 has a LOT of continuity flaws. We tore it to shreds on the
>>RT group and list when it came out. And the Sentinels have a lot too.
>
>How are the Sentinels books screwed up? Your reasoning about the others is
>that they contradict footage. But there IS no footage for the Sentinels and
>what was edited together was in the book almost verbatim.
You're right. The story's just awful.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter W. Walker II p...@spacsun.rice.edu
SpacHouse rules! (713) 666-0684
Physicist, historian, writer, collector, philosopher, and looney for hire
(not necessarily in that order)
Co-author of ROBOTECH: OBJECTIVE REFLEX POINT and author of ROBOTECH: THE
HUNTED.
"We play by Robotech's rules; not Mckinney's. He's worked very hard
to turn Robotech into a cheap rip-off of Dune with the sophmoric
story telling of Piers Anthony at his worst. And we don't have to
like it." -myself on alt.tv.robotech
edwin chen
>
> I will agree that End of th eCircle was a flawed story that didn't go any-
> where, but that doesn't negate the rest of the books.
> >
> >*NEVER* base an argument on End of the Circle, it is the most thoroughly
> >hated piece of Robotech material.
Call me ignorant, but what was so flawed about End of the Circle? Was it
just the interpretation and adding of things or did people actually find
inconsistencies?
edwin chen
> times. This has been covered again and again, we built up quite an
> impressive list of them.
Do you happen to have this on hand so I could look at it?
Matthew Hickey
>> >*NEVER* base an argument on End of the Circle, it is the most thoroughly
>> >hated piece of Robotech material.
>Call me ignorant, but what was so flawed about End of the Circle? Was it
>just the interpretation and adding of things or did people actually find
>inconsistencies?
Not to step on anyone's foot here, but how can Sentinels and The End
of the Circle be inconsistant? There were never any animation done for
them, no scripts, etc. Anything related from Sentinels was based on the
books.
Now for those who worship the "consistancy" of the series (and here
I mean to step on toes), may I remind you all that "Robotech" is a sloppy
cut-and-paste job by an American company of three totally unrelated japanese
series.
I think most of the discussion of _The End of the Circle_ stems from
the desire to have Robotech live on forever. Face it, after beating every
race encountered, humans can't carry on that underdog image anymore. And
every story _must_ come to an end. Fantasy buffs I know hate the
neverending sequels of Piers Anthony's _Xanth_ and Weiss/Hickmans'
_Dragonlance_. I dislike the endless flavours of Star Trek out there (old
crew, new crew, DS9, Voyager, rip-offs and spin-offs). The best story is
the story that ends with enough to keep the listener interested long after
they walk away, but it _does_ end. Let Robotech live on in your minds, your
hearts, your RPG campaigns, but don't prolong it's life, pull the plug and
move on.
Nightshade
Linwood Foster (Direwolf)
> dict itself when Dana says her parents left when she was three and at one
> point mentions a baby brother. Where was he in the Sentinals footage and
> why did it say six years had passed? Again, you can not claim the show as
> all encompassing and canon when it itself is full of contradictions.
What baby brother? She said baby sister. Eventhough that came at the end of
the series, it was still passed off as a link between Sentinels and the
rest of the series.
DC4...@american.edu
>>Whoa! What's with the sudden comdenmnation of the novels? I personally have
>
>For many years the hardcore RT fans have hated the novels, this is nothing
>new.
>
>>always appreciated the novel version of things as canon over other sources,
>
>No. The show comes first, and the novels DO contradict the footage MANY
>times. This has been covered again and again, we built up quite an
>impressive list of them.
>The show is the first source, the animation sheets and storyboards -
>which some fans have - are second, the RPG - at least the original
>coverage - is third, and then the novels.
>
>The novels have the most contradictions. The RPG only went far afield
>when it came to the Invid return and Lancer's Rockers.
>
>I have nearly every piece of robotech material produced.
>
>>The non-canon sources I can think of in my opinion is the RPG book's version
>>of history in the series, with the Invid returning after the Regis' departure,
>
>Up until that point, the return, it is rather accurate. That was a slip.
>As opposed to McKinney who actually contradicts dates given in the series.
dialog. The whole end of "To the Stars" dealt with the SDF-2 and mentioned
it severel times. It was even implied that Lisa's control room was on the
SDF-2. Did we ever see it? Of course not. That was not the case in the
original Japanese version.
>
>go downhill with the Sentinels.
>
>He is basically an egotistical git who wants to bend the universe to be
>what HE wants it to be. Most likely a major factor in Brian Daley leaving.
>
reason Daley is no longer involved. I would assume it's because he has a
career, whereas Luceno has been writing Indiana Jones books. Who said
he was pissed off at him?
>>where, but that doesn't negate the rest of the books.
>
>No, not on it's own. though I will say that it should be totally ignored.
>
>Book 19 has a LOT of continuity flaws. We tore it to shreds on the
>RT group and list when it came out. And the Sentinels have a lot too.
that they contradict footage. But there IS no footage for the Sentinels and
talk continuity about the Sentinels movie? Rick's a Major General then, but
called Admiral all through the rest of the original series. (Yes, I know
it was a work in progress) My point is, Those books are the only source
for what happened after Macross, so how can they contradict anything?
Also, concerning dates, the only dates mentioned in the series are in the
first episode, indicating that it's 2009, then in "Reconstruction Blues"
Indicating two years have passed. Then "To the Stars" has the note at the
end saying it's 2012. The last date given is in the next episode, which
says 15 years had passed. The rest of it is extremely vague. The Invid
could have invaded the day after the Masters were killed or ten years, or
whatever. We have no way of knowing. The show even continues to contra-
Peter Walker
> Not to step on anyone's foot here, but how can Sentinels and The End
>of the Circle be inconsistant? There were never any animation done for
>them, no scripts, etc. Anything related from Sentinels was based on the
>books.
It's real simple. Sentinels => x, EotC => y, x => not(y). I'm sure others
that have read EotC more recently than I can provide specific x's and y's.
> I think most of the discussion of _The End of the Circle_ stems from
>the desire to have Robotech live on forever.
Not on the planet I'm from. Most of the criticism I have seen was that
EotC was an bad story, based on an awful idea, abyssimally written by a
hack. It's that simple.
>Face it, after beating every
>race encountered, humans can't carry on that underdog image anymore. And
>every story _must_ come to an end.
That's what "Symphony of Light" did. We don't need another ending that
contradicts the details and spirit of that masterful endind, whether
from McKinney or Siembeda.