point equality?
Ray Cochener
Something has been bothering me lately, and it is, in short, this-
In the collection of various effects from one game scenario to another,
we have arrived at a situation where all point-level characters are not
equal. A number of skills have been added which serve to make characters
realistic, which also increase the point totals, while advantages from
different background with equivelent points do not have equal level
effects.
I'm wondering if maybe it isn't time for a fourth edition.
Benson Fong
Could you be a little more specific? How, for example, are you measuring
"not equal"?
Michelle Barrett
Ray Cochener wrote in message <34C61C...@feist.com>...
>Something has been bothering me lately, and it is, in short, this-
> In the collection of various effects from one game scenario to another,
>we have arrived at a situation where all point-level characters are not
>equal. A number of skills have been added which serve to make characters
>realistic, which also increase the point totals, while advantages from
>different background with equivelent points do not have equal level
>effects.
> I'm wondering if maybe it isn't time for a fourth edition.
The nice thing about GURPS is being able to modify point values to suit your
own personal taste without having to alter the core rules. A new printing
of 3rd MIGHT be called for, but I don't we need a whole new edition.
Michelle
Ray Cochener
> > In the collection of various effects from one game scenario to
> another,
> > we have arrived at a situation where all point-level characters are not
> > equal. A number of skills have been added which serve to make characters
> > realistic, which also increase the point totals, while advantages from
> > different background with equivelent points do not have equal level
> > effects.
> > I'm wondering if maybe it isn't time for a fourth edition.
>
> "not equal"?
Okay, for example, a 15 point "claws" with 15 point "hyper-reflexes".
There are a lot of other examples, and the major point is that geeric
advantages/disadvantages have had their point value keyed to specific
campaigns, ussually the ones where they are most valuable, leaving the
old generic advantages/disadvantages at a lower level where they are
keyed to be affordable when they are most advantageuos and not worth it
when they are less advantageous.
Charles Griswold
Jonathan Dale wrote:
<snip>
> It would be useful, though, to have a convenient way to determine LR for
> advantages that aren't "weapons" but are still damage-causing. Something
> like:
> Base LR is the same as a medium range weapon doing the same damage.
> (this could be better. how about 3*[averagemediumDR]/[aver.dmg]?
> in my cyberpunk game, average medium DR is around 15-18, so a
> 6d weapon is ~LR 3. Incidentally, this will also make the point
> cost of claws depend on ST, which is probably a good idea.)
Why should you pay more for claws if you have a high ST, when you've already
paid for the ST.
<snip>
Apologies for all the snippage; my ISP won't let me post lots of quoted text.
-- Charles Griswold (My address is spam-protected.)
"See, now that's what I'm talkin' about!" -- Agent J
"If I want your opinion, I'll beat it out of you."
-- Elvira, Mistress of the Dark.
Ray Cochener
Charles Griswold wrote:
>
> Jonathan Dale wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > It would be useful, though, to have a convenient way to determine LR for
> > advantages that aren't "weapons" but are still damage-causing. Something
> > like:
> > Base LR is the same as a medium range weapon doing the same damage.
> > (this could be better. how about 3*[averagemediumDR]/[aver.dmg]?
> > in my cyberpunk game, average medium DR is around 15-18, so a
> > 6d weapon is ~LR 3. Incidentally, this will also make the point
> > cost of claws depend on ST, which is probably a good idea.)
>
> Why should you pay more for claws if you have a high ST, when you've already
> paid for the ST.
>
> <snip>
>
Another small point- he started by saying it was a good example because
claws are worth more in a low tech setting- but let's say I want to
allow whirling dervishes of the sect of the maiden Goddess of War to
have hyper-reflexes? Now are they ballanced just because we are at a
lower TL? Not really! The two advantages are simply not ballanced
relative to each other, instead each was calibrated seperately for a
certain genre.
Jonathan Dale
Ray Cochener (silv...@feist.com) wrote:
: Charles Griswold wrote:
: > Jonathan Dale wrote:
: > <snip>
: > > It would be useful, though, to have a convenient way to determine LR for
: > > advantages that aren't "weapons" but are still damage-causing. Something
: > > like:
: > > Base LR is the same as a medium range weapon doing the same damage.
: > > (this could be better. how about 3*[averagemediumDR]/[aver.dmg]?
: > > in my cyberpunk game, average medium DR is around 15-18, so a
: > > 6d weapon is ~LR 3. Incidentally, this will also make the point
: > > cost of claws depend on ST, which is probably a good idea.)
: >
: >Why should you pay more for claws if you have a high ST, when you've already
: > paid for the ST.
Okay, this kind of depends. Blunt claws can be considered equivalent to
increased ST with the limitation "Only for punching (or kicking) attacks".
Since the cost of ST increases as ST increases (see later for exceptions),
the cost of blunt claws should be higher if you have a high ST.
The exception, of course, is if you use Enhanced ST. If your ST is, say, 100,
blunt claws have a negligible affect on your damage, and should probably be
worth 1 pt or so.
Cutting or impaling claws improve the effectiveness of your punching attacks
and really ought to be an enhancement of ST. As such, they ought to be worth
more if your ST is higher. At ST 10, impaling claws do 1d-2 imp; at ST 30
they do 3d imp. I don't think the impaling enhancement is worth the same to
two characters with ST 10 and 30. The standard Impaling enhancement (+50%)
doesn't quite work, though, because A) it would be free for ST 10 and B) ST
does all sorts of things beside punching attacks. That's why a different
mechanism is called for.
p.s. Why are you apologizing for snipping? I appreciate not having to go
through all the stuff that isn't relevant.
: Another small point- he started by saying it was a good example because
He? Hey, I'm still here, don't talk about me in the third person! :)
: claws are worth more in a low tech setting- but let's say I want to
: allow whirling dervishes of the sect of the maiden Goddess of War to
: have hyper-reflexes? Now are they ballanced just because we are at a
: lower TL? Not really! The two advantages are simply not ballanced
: relative to each other, instead each was calibrated seperately for a
: certain genre.
Actually, I think 15 points for Claws and 15 points for Hyper-Reflexes are
pretty well balanced against each other at TL3. Even better at lower TLs.
One increases damage on all punching attacks, the other grants combat
reflexes and +1 Speed but only some of the time (takes fatigue, doesn't help
with surprise because you won't have it already activated).
Which do you think is superior? Why?
By TL8, I'd say it's not unreasonable that Hyper-Reflexes are three times
as useful as +2 damage blunt claws.
Again, I think it more useful to suggest alternatives than to say "this doesn't
work". If you think there's a problem, let's hear which ones are mispriced
and what they should cost. And if you think it should vary by setting, let's
hear some potential mechanisms (you haven't said whether you think this is
a good idea or not even in principle, yet).
--
Jonathan Dale (jd...@bio.bu.edu)
"It had been good talking to his father's spirt. When he had walked the Earth,
he had been a strange and distant man. He had not changed much since he died."
---_High Steel_, Jack C. Haldeman and Jack Dann
Pee Kitty
Ray Cochener (silv...@feist.com) spewed forth:
> Okay, for example, a 15 point "claws" with 15 point "hyper-reflexes".
<snip>
Unfortunately, most of these unbalances can be traced back to 1st (and to
some degree, 2nd) edition Supers. Lloyd Blankenship was an okay writer,
but he had some whacked-out ideas on what things should cost. That's why
low-powered things ended up costing way more than high-powered things
throughout the books.
Double-unfortunately, all this stuff made it into Compendia unfixed. Claws
costing 15 points is dumb when compared to DR 5 costing 15 points or Hyper
Reflexes costing 15 points, and let's not even get into Super Powers
(though those were pretty much left out of Compendia)...15 points buys you
2.5 dice of damage from two dozen yards away! [*] Perhaps a 4th edition
isn't the worst idea...
[*] Yeah, I know you can't buy 1/2 levels. It was just an example.
--
Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian
(Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;)
Meow!
And finally, a special message to
anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/
~@-/ oO \-@~
/_( \__/ )_\
\__U_/
Pee Kitty
Charles Griswold (gris...@rconnect.smite-the-spammers.com) spewed forth:
> Jonathan Dale wrote:
> > Base LR is the same as a medium range weapon doing the same damage.
> > (this could be better. how about 3*[averagemediumDR]/[aver.dmg]?
> > in my cyberpunk game, average medium DR is around 15-18, so a
> > 6d weapon is ~LR 3. Incidentally, this will also make the point
> > cost of claws depend on ST, which is probably a good idea.)
>
> Why should you pay more for claws if you have a high ST, when you've already
> paid for the ST.
For the "+2 damage claws", you shouldn't.
For claws that turn your normal ST damage into cutting or impaling, you
should...it's like an enhancement on your ST. For the record, this is how
I do Claws. If anyone wants a detailed rationale behind it, just ask.
Here's the short rationale: (1) In my game, damage powers cost 8 points
per die instead of 6, to make them comparable to the cost of DR. (2)
The cost of an attack that does Xd damage (i.e., 8X points) is almost
identical to the level of ST needed to do an average of Xd damage (between
thrusting and swinging). (3) Cutting is a +30% enhancement. (4) I make
impaling a +60% enhancement--one that does *not* subtract -1 per die. IMO,
that makes the enhancement "does impaling while thrusting or cutting while
swinging" worth +50%. (5) Summation: Thus, the cost to add a +20%
enhancement to the damage done by your ST should cost (ST x .20) points. I
prefer to say (ST/3) instead of (ST x .30), however.
CLAWS: Variable
Always round up.
For 8 points, you have blunt claws that add +1d to your hand-to-hand
damage.
For (ST/3) points, you have short claws, that let you do thr/cut damage.
For (ST/2) points, you have talons, that let you do thr/imp or sw/cut
damage.
For (ST/2) + 12 points, you have long talons, that let you do thr+1d/imp
or sw+1d/cut!
Note that this means a ST 10 PC who wanted talons would pay 5 points
instead of 40 points. A ST 250 PC who wanted the same talons would pay 125
points instead of 40 points. This is definitely a good thing (IMNSHO).
andi jones
Pki...@cris.com (Pee Kitty) wrote:
> Unfortunately, most of these unbalances can be traced back to 1st (and to
> some degree, 2nd) edition Supers. Lloyd Blankenship was an okay writer,
> but he had some whacked-out ideas on what things should cost. That's why
> low-powered things ended up costing way more than high-powered things
> throughout the books.
>
> Double-unfortunately, all this stuff made it into Compendia unfixed. Claws
> costing 15 points is dumb when compared to DR 5 costing 15 points or Hyper
> Reflexes costing 15 points, and let's not even get into Super Powers
> (though those were pretty much left out of Compendia)...15 points buys you
> 2.5 dice of damage from two dozen yards away! [*] Perhaps a 4th edition
> isn't the worst idea...
provided you're using the supers rules in a comic-booky context, and not
trying to liberally mix them with other more realistic, more delicate
genres, i'm not sure there's that much imbalance. i've been running supers
campaigns almost exclusively for the last 14 years (only the last 18
months in GURPS), and one thing that i've always had trouble with is
getting the players to want to fight with super-powers, as opposed to guns
or melee weapons. and that was in systems without characters points...
in GURPS, where you have only a moderate number of points to spend,
super-powers *can't* cost too much. you mention you can do 2.5 dice of
damage for 15 points. you can also do 3d of damage with a 10mm pistol, for
"free" (you need to put some points into the skill, but that's true of
super-powers as well). in fact, if you pick up an assault rifle, you can
do 7d of damage. per bullet. firing up to ten bullets every turn. a 10g
shotgun firing slug ammunition does 10d of damage to an unarmoured
opponent.
so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
to be affordable.
at least, that's how i saw it.
end of line.
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Jonathan Dale wrote:
>
> Actually, I think 15 points for Claws and 15 points for Hyper-Reflexes are
> pretty well balanced against each other at TL3. Even better at lower TLs.
> One increases damage on all punching attacks, the other grants combat
> reflexes and +1 Speed but only some of the time (takes fatigue, doesn't help
> with surprise because you won't have it already activated).
> Which do you think is superior? Why?
I think the hyper-reflexes are superior. I'll take a guy with
hyper-reflexes and a shortsword, thank you. I would put the 15 point
hyper-reflexes on par with magery, but I can't say that I think +2 dmg
claws are really in the same category. Heck, I really don't think long
talons really qualify as equal to either of them.
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Pee Kitty wrote:
>
> Charles Griswold (gris...@rconnect.smite-the-spammers.com) spewed forth:
> > Jonathan Dale wrote:
> > > Base LR is the same as a medium range weapon doing the same damage.
> > > (this could be better. how about 3*[averagemediumDR]/[aver.dmg]?
> > > in my cyberpunk game, average medium DR is around 15-18, so a
> > > 6d weapon is ~LR 3. Incidentally, this will also make the point
> > > cost of claws depend on ST, which is probably a good idea.)
> >
> > Why should you pay more for claws if you have a high ST, when you've already
> > paid for the ST.
>
> For the "+2 damage claws", you shouldn't.
>
A point to insert- isn't it odd that you can get two dice of damage for
12 points, but have to spend 15 for +2? If we follow the "fractional
dice" section, and (for the sake of convenience) use the 8 points a die,
then a +1 should cost 2 points, a +2 should cost 4 points, a (+1d-1)
should cost 6 points and a full die should cost eight.
Then you take the limitation "touch only"...which should ballance
fairly well with "can be added to normal damage"
Xplo Eristotle
andi jones wrote:
>
> provided you're using the supers rules in a comic-booky context, and not
> trying to liberally mix them with other more realistic, more delicate
> genres, i'm not sure there's that much imbalance. i've been running supers
> campaigns almost exclusively for the last 14 years (only the last 18
> months in GURPS), and one thing that i've always had trouble with is
> getting the players to want to fight with super-powers, as opposed to guns
> or melee weapons. and that was in systems without characters points...
>
> in GURPS, where you have only a moderate number of points to spend,
> super-powers *can't* cost too much. you mention you can do 2.5 dice of
> damage for 15 points. you can also do 3d of damage with a 10mm pistol, for
> "free" (you need to put some points into the skill, but that's true of
> super-powers as well). in fact, if you pick up an assault rifle, you can
> do 7d of damage. per bullet. firing up to ten bullets every turn. a 10g
> shotgun firing slug ammunition does 10d of damage to an unarmoured
> opponent.
>
> so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
> to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> to be affordable.
Bah. You're missing a major point: GURPS is supposed to be well-suited to
cross-genre stuff. Making super powers affordable runs directly contrary to
this, which was the problem all along.
If you want heroes with POWER, give 'em more points.. this thing about "oh,
power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
Xplo "Endymion" Eristotle xp...@infomagic.com
# Grand Master - Lunar Inquisition #
Pit: http://www.infomagic.com/~xplo/index.html
Bruce L. Grubb
In article <34CB7D8D...@infomagic.com>, Xplo Eristotle
<xp...@infomagic.com> wrote:
> andi jones wrote:
> > so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
> > to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> > to be affordable.
>
> Bah. You're missing a major point: GURPS is supposed to be well-suited to
> cross-genre stuff. Making super powers affordable runs directly contrary to
> this, which was the problem all along.
I agree. Trying to excuse the loppy point costs for ability in Supers as
making super power affordable is totolly off the wall.
> If you want heroes with POWER, give 'em more points.. this thing about "oh,
> power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
It also produces unintended results. For example two of the magic options
for Supers use GURPS Magic. This tends to produce mages who are almost
demi-gods and more than a match for most Supers built on the same number
of points. Especially if you use the second option and mage get buckets
of 'exclusive' Extra Fatigue for his spells.
Sherlock Holmes as presented in GURPS Horror is a ~400 pt character and
yet he is not a Super by most definitions. To be able to do everything
they are able to do in comics both Batman and Daredevil have to be built
on more points than this.
The key problem is that the Super genre has such a large range. While 400
pts might be enough to build Mr. Fantastic, Hourman (DC), Sandman (DC,
JLA), Punisher, Spiderman, and Shadowcat/Phase clones it not enough to
build someone like Batman.
From the Pre-Crisis who's who of Earth-1 Batman the attributes alone are
310 points. Then you throw in the millionaire wealth (75+ pt), 'almost
photographic memory' (EM 1 30 pts), trained by a Master (40), Gadgeteer,
Strong Will, Combat Reflexes, Alertness and Contacts and the point total
is out of sight.
And there is not enough disadvantages to bring it back below 400 points so
as to buy the skills to the expert and beyond level. Much of the
pre-Crisis JLA is beyond 400 pts and the current version is nearly as bad.
andi jones
Xplo Eristotle <xp...@infomagic.com> wrote:
> > so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
> > to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> > to be affordable.
>
> Bah. You're missing a major point: GURPS is supposed to be well-suited to
> cross-genre stuff. Making super powers affordable runs directly contrary to
> this, which was the problem all along.
>
> If you want heroes with POWER, give 'em more points.. this thing about "oh,
> power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
that's why i mentioned something about "in a comic-booky context". as a
standalone supers set of rules, IOW, the imbalances are not as profound.
but yes, you're right, if you want to start mixing supers with other
genres, then you run into trouble.
but the point imbalances and inequalities mentioned here are simply a part
of the game. GURPS is a well-designed system, but just by virtue of its
complexity, there are going to be weak-points. the system is designed to
be generic, but it has to make rules for some very specific things. do
that enough, and you contradict yourself, or at the very least you do
things that don't mix well. the authors of the system can't predict all of
the unique multi-genre settings and scenarios that players are going to
make, so they can't possibly be expected to always get the mix right.
further, the rules for each genre are written to represent the most common
portrayal of that genre in fiction, or a median one. if you're running a
supers game but want to keep the action earth-bound, down in the gutter,
in the streets, then make flight and teleportation much more expensive, or
inform your players that they aren't allowed. also, a combination of two
advantages from different settings may be an unwanted hack in some
settings and a perfectly legitimate new power in another.
it's a matter of allowing the setting to dictate the rules (i.e., which
ones you use, which ones you pitch, which ones you alter to taste) or
letting the rules dictate the setting (i.e., keep it all and see what kind
of world emerges). most GMs, in my experience, follow the former path, and
every GM has different tastes. it's up to them which things to change.
to return this to supers, i still don't have a problem with powers being
relatively cheap (compared to other powers/advantages from other
books/settings). since i run a straight-up supers setting, it works out
okay, since it's internally balanced. making the point costs higher would
only mean making the characters start with more points, but that doesn't
change anything as long as you're doing only supers. but given that supers
can mix into so many other genres, i think it would have been hard to
adjust the point costs. having a 6d fireball in the old west would have
meant you ruled all of arizona. but the same fireball in a space opera
setting where people carry 4dx10 fusion pistols isn't as big a deal. i'm
not sure the point costs in the supers rules could really be expected to
reflect things like that. i think it's easier to do what they did: to make
rules that are pretty well balanced internally, and then assume that
individual GMs can alter point costs upwards (or downwards) when they
merge supers with some other genre and its own set of rules.
at least, that's how i see it.
end of line.
andi jones
bgr...@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb) wrote:
> > > so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
> > > to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> > > to be affordable.
> >
> > Bah. You're missing a major point: GURPS is supposed to be well-suited to
> > cross-genre stuff. Making super powers affordable runs directly contrary to
> > this, which was the problem all along.
>
> I agree. Trying to excuse the loppy point costs for ability in Supers as
> making super power affordable is totolly off the wall.
i can't argue that i might be off the wall, but again, i think the supers
rules were written to be internally consistent, and weren't designed to
mesh well with other genres because of the intrinsic difficultly (and huge
variability) of incorporating comic-book style super-powers into other
genres. maybe i'm giving the author too much credit, maybe the rules are
just woefully lop-sided.
> > If you want heroes with POWER, give 'em more points.. this thing about "oh,
> > power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
>
> It also produces unintended results. For example two of the magic options
> for Supers use GURPS Magic. This tends to produce mages who are almost
> demi-gods and more than a match for most Supers built on the same number
> of points. Especially if you use the second option and mage get buckets
> of 'exclusive' Extra Fatigue for his spells.
this is the kind of thing i mean. the magic portrayed in comic books is
quite different from the sorcery of traditional fantasy. so simply using
one to model the other is going to result in unsettling effects. i've
never incorporated supers into another genre, but i can see where it would
whack things out.
imagine a character in a fantasy setting with insubstantiality; for 80
points, you'd be immune to 99% of the weapons in the world. in a supers
setting, there are enough people with psionic and energy-based powers that
the insubstantial person can be kept in check. but in the fantasy setting?
you'd have to assign an awfully high point-cost to insubstantiality in
that case to make it balanced.
> The key problem is that the Super genre has such a large range. While 400
> pts might be enough to build Mr. Fantastic, Hourman (DC), Sandman (DC,
> JLA), Punisher, Spiderman, and Shadowcat/Phase clones it not enough to
> build someone like Batman.
>
> From the Pre-Crisis who's who of Earth-1 Batman the attributes alone are
> 310 points. Then you throw in the millionaire wealth (75+ pt), 'almost
> photographic memory' (EM 1 30 pts), trained by a Master (40), Gadgeteer,
> Strong Will, Combat Reflexes, Alertness and Contacts and the point total
> is out of sight.
>
> And there is not enough disadvantages to bring it back below 400 points so
> as to buy the skills to the expert and beyond level. Much of the
> pre-Crisis JLA is beyond 400 pts and the current version is nearly as bad.
is 400 points a kind of unofficial ceiling? i'm just asking, because in my
supers setting, i just design the characters and let the point totals be
what they will. the main PC is a martial artists with small-scale
super-powers, and he began as a 450 point character. my campaign's
equivalent to batman would be much higher.
well, more of my $.02.
end of line.
Bruce L. Grubb
In article <andi-25019...@ts002d02.sta-ct.concentric.net>,
an...@angelwerks.com (andi jones) wrote:
> bgr...@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb) wrote:
>
> > I agree. Trying to excuse the loppy point costs for ability in Supers as
> > making super power affordable is totolly off the wall.
>
> i can't argue that i might be off the wall, but again, i think the supers
> rules were written to be internally consistent, and weren't designed to
> mesh well with other genres because of the intrinsic difficultly (and huge
> variability) of incorporating comic-book style super-powers into other
> genres. maybe i'm giving the author too much credit, maybe the rules are
> just woefully lop-sided.
They are woefully lopside. Especialy as they have now been pulled from
Supers and been made as 'cross genre' by being in the Compandium I.
> > It also produces unintended results. For example two of the magic options
> > for Supers use GURPS Magic. This tends to produce mages who are almost
> > demi-gods and more than a match for most Supers built on the same number
> > of points. Especially if you use the second option and mage get buckets
> > of 'exclusive' Extra Fatigue for his spells.
>
> this is the kind of thing i mean. the magic portrayed in comic books is
> quite different from the sorcery of traditional fantasy. so simply using
> one to model the other is going to result in unsettling effects. i've
> never incorporated supers into another genre, but i can see where it would
> whack things out.
>
> imagine a character in a fantasy setting with insubstantiality; for 80
> points, you'd be immune to 99% of the weapons in the world. in a supers
> setting, there are enough people with psionic and energy-based powers that
> the insubstantial person can be kept in check. but in the fantasy setting?
> you'd have to assign an awfully high point-cost to insubstantiality in
> that case to make it balanced.
In a fantasy setting there are tons of magic weapons and spells that will
ruin the insubstantial's day. The Body Control, Commmunication & Empathy,
Mind Control collages are all effective. Dehydrate (Water) is really
useful as is Stench (Air).
Etheral Body which is the magic equivelent of Insubstantiality gives us
can be bought as a magic knack for as low as 60 pts (3000 * 2%) and it has
on advantage over Insubstantiality: You don't need to breathe. This is
offset by the -2 to resistance against spells from the Commmunication &
Empathy and Mind Control collages as well as a handful of Necromatic
spells.
> > The key problem is that the Super genre has such a large range. While 400
> > pts might be enough to build Mr. Fantastic, Hourman (DC), Sandman (DC,
> > JLA), Punisher, Spiderman, and Shadowcat/Phase clones it not enough to
> > build someone like Batman.
> >
> > From the Pre-Crisis who's who of Earth-1 Batman the attributes alone are
> > 310 points. Then you throw in the millionaire wealth (75+ pt), 'almost
> > photographic memory' (EM 1 30 pts), trained by a Master (40), Gadgeteer,
> > Strong Will, Combat Reflexes, Alertness and Contacts and the point total
> > is out of sight.
> >
> > And there is not enough disadvantages to bring it back below 400 points so
> > as to buy the skills to the expert and beyond level. Much of the
> > pre-Crisis JLA is beyond 400 pts and the current version is nearly as bad.
>
> is 400 points a kind of unofficial ceiling?
400 pt is where you supposed to enter the world of four color comics.
Since Batman is on par with such costumed crime fighters as the Phantom,
The Shadow, and the Green Hornet he should be buildable on 400 pts.
The problem is that when you figuring in what all Batman one starts
getting very close to the 555.5 pts sans skills I estimated the 1938
Superman woulc be built on (see below): Note the creative use of
advantages to reduce point cost.
1938 Superman (555.5 pts sans skills)
Attributes (412.5)
ST 100/15 (Fatigue limit to ST, doesn't effect skill defaults, -25%) - 172.5 pts
[lifted an automobile with little effort]
Extra effort lifts
Two handed (ST * 25) - 23,500 lbs; One handed (ST * 6) - 5,640 lbs
Jumping base: High - 290 in; standing long - 97 ft
IQ: 16 - 80 pts
DX: 16 - 80 pts
[the super speed and fast dodging came much later]
HT: 16 - 80 pts
Advantages (15)
Very Fit (15)
Super powers (138):
Super Jump (3 levels, 8x: High - 2320 in; standing long - 776 ft) - 30 pts
[can jump 1/8 a mile (660 ft) and leap over a 20 story building in
single bound]
DR 40 (limit - not effective against fire or electricity -5%) - 108 pts
[Can be killed by being run over by train; fire and electricity hurt.
[It is implied that surviving a granade 5d+2 was a big deal in 1940 so
this DR is simply to prevent bullets from a machine gun from doing damage]
Super disadvantages (-10)
Secret ID (if appicable): -10 pts
Note: The "more powerful than a locomotive" part of Superman is not a
problem. Simply extrapulate the 'pull on wheels' rules and divide the
train's overall weight by 40 (good 'road' and 'four' wheels) This enables
the 1938 superman above to pull a 470 ton train with extra effort (40 *
23,500 lbs)
Pee Kitty
andi jones (an...@angelwerks.com) spewed forth:
> Pki...@cris.com (Pee Kitty) wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, most of these unbalances can be traced back to 1st (and to
> > some degree, 2nd) edition Supers. Lloyd Blankenship was an okay writer,
> > but he had some whacked-out ideas on what things should cost. That's why
> > low-powered things ended up costing way more than high-powered things
> > throughout the books.
> in GURPS, where you have only a moderate number of points to spend,
> super-powers *can't* cost too much. you mention you can do 2.5 dice of
> damage for 15 points. you can also do 3d of damage with a 10mm pistol, for
> "free" (you need to put some points into the skill, but that's true of
> super-powers as well). in fact, if you pick up an assault rifle, you can
> do 7d of damage. per bullet. firing up to ten bullets every turn. a 10g
> shotgun firing slug ammunition does 10d of damage to an unarmoured
> opponent.
>
> so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
> to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> to be affordable.
Exactly. And for 15 points, Claws *aren't*.
For +2 to damage, compared to 6 pt/lvl missiles, they should cost 4
points, IMO...5 at the *most*.
Nis Haller Baggesen
Xplo Eristotle wrote:
>
> andi jones wrote:
> >
> > so to keep the players true to the four-colour aspect of the comics, and
> > to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> > to be affordable.
>
> cross-genre stuff. Making super powers affordable runs directly contrary to
> this, which was the problem all along.
>
> power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
>
super powers? If it takes 15 points for a superpower to match a handgun,
and somewhat more to match an assaultrifle, then a player who wants to
'get his pooints worth' would invest in wealth levels, since he could
then easialy buy what he needed to match the other supers. Of course you
could say that this goes against the Four Colour genre, but if you want
to stay in that genre, then it would be quite natural to let superpowers
be cheap. After all, as long as a power can be matched by easily
obtainable equipment it isn't really much of an advantage.
Nis
Ray & Cristie Cochener
The problem here is that 15 points to equal a wooden rob is a little
ridiculous! As for powers matched by equipment, it depends on TL- at
TL:14 instant regeneration and flight can be produced by equipment!
Daniel Arnold Hopping
andi jones wrote:
>
>
<snip>>
> super-powers *can't* cost too much. you mention you can do 2.5 dice of
> damage for 15 points. you can also do 3d of damage with a 10mm pistol, for
> "free" (you need to put some points into the skill, but that's true of
> super-powers as well). in fact, if you pick up an assault rifle, you can
> do 7d of damage. per bullet. firing up to ten bullets every turn. a 10g
> shotgun firing slug ammunition does 10d of damage to an unarmoured
> opponent.
>
> to prevent them all from wanting to play frank castles, super-powers have
> to be affordable.
>
>
> end of line.
two things about powers vs equipment
1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
opponent can grab it.
2:if the players like guns, pull out a group of villans with
In-Betweener invunerability (only 1 pt of dmg per die from bullets and
impaling, modified by caliber and type after dr) with dr 14 and
regeneration- about 127 pts(85 if dr is kevlar) for goons at 100 point
level after disads. watch as ammo from ap assault rifle bounces off
harmlessly :>
Incanus
> > Even if you gave players more points, would they then invest them in
> > super powers? If it takes 15 points for a superpower to match a handgun,
> > and somewhat more to match an assaultrifle, then a player who wants to
> > 'get his pooints worth' would invest in wealth levels, since he could
> > then easialy buy what he needed to match the other supers. Of course you
> > could say that this goes against the Four Colour genre, but if you want
> > to stay in that genre, then it would be quite natural to let superpowers
> > be cheap. After all, as long as a power can be matched by easily
> > obtainable equipment it isn't really much of an advantage.
"Easily obtainable" is a relative category. GURPS values its
advantages/disadvantages not by ease to obtain means to use it, but in
how many situations you can use it.
Imagine two characters of equal point value with nothing on them but the
clothes they were; however, one has several levels of Multimillionaire
and a Guns skill of twentysomething, while the other has high stats and
a couple of superpowers, say, useful in combat. In a typical urban
situation they would be pretty equal, with some advantage going to the
rich guy because he is much more useful and/or powerful in social
situations.
Now, imagine those same two guys stranded in desert and devoid of
everything but the clothes on their backs: which one would be more
useful when a tribe of enraged Berber warriors come their way? Trust me,
no wealth in the world and no Guns skill will help you in such a
situation -- unlike, OTOH, powers you can carry with yourself regardless
of setting or situation (like IQ, Telepathy or Lightning).
And as a GM, I would always punish a player thinking the way you do --
not because I like to punish people, but because it's roleplaying, and
just because we're playing in one genre doesn't mean that "nonstandard"
situations can't appear.
--
Incanus: inc...@bigfoot.com
http://incanus.home.ml.org
Nis Haller Baggesen
Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
> > >
> > > If you want heroes with POWER, give 'em more points.. this thing about "oh,
> > > power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
> > >
> > super powers? If it takes 15 points for a superpower to match a handgun,
> > and somewhat more to match an assaultrifle, then a player who wants to
> > 'get his pooints worth' would invest in wealth levels, since he could
> > then easialy buy what he needed to match the other supers. Of course you
> > could say that this goes against the Four Colour genre, but if you want
> > to stay in that genre, then it would be quite natural to let superpowers
> > be cheap. After all, as long as a power can be matched by easily
> > obtainable equipment it isn't really much of an advantage.
> >
>
> ridiculous! As for powers matched by equipment, it depends on TL- at
> TL:14 instant regeneration and flight can be produced by equipment!
Of course equipment effects depend on TL - Thats propably why many
people in this thread has said that advantage values should depend on
TL. Because an advantage should be wayed against the powers of people
without the advantage. If 'everybody' at TL 14 can instantly regenerate
because of the available tech, its not much of an advantage.
Nis
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
luck. The problem is, they aren't.
Pierce Nichols
> Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
> equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> luck. The problem is, they aren't.
Maybe lightning calculator gets less valuable after the introduction of
pocket calculators (except for, IMC, space piloting, where people with
lightning calculator get a bonus because they can do vector algebra in
their heads), but math ability does not. It still gives you a nice fat
skill bonus on most of the sciences, computer programming, and
electronics.
-p
--
"A book should be an axe for the frozen sea inside."
-Franz Kafka
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Matthew J Wilson
Daniel Arnold Hopping <daho...@eos.ncsu.edu> writes:
>two things about powers vs equipment
>1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
>confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
>opponent can grab it.
I think this is really the key. If you run around shooting people, you're
going to be labelled a villian, and hunted down by the law enforcement
authorities. Supers don't get that - they have to do soemthing apart from
being vigilantes before they're hunted down.
--
Matt.
Justin Basilico
andi jones (an...@angelwerks.com) wrote:
: imagine a character in a fantasy setting with insubstantiality; for 80
: points, you'd be immune to 99% of the weapons in the world. in a supers
: setting, there are enough people with psionic and energy-based powers that
: the insubstantial person can be kept in check. but in the fantasy setting?
: you'd have to assign an awfully high point-cost to insubstantiality in
: that case to make it balanced.
Two words: Unusual Background.
This kind of problem is /exactly/ what the advantage was written for. OF
COURSE certain powers are going to be more useful in certain settings.
That's why you add a point surcharge in Unusual Background if someone is
going to possess an ability that most people do not have.
In the case of superpowers, like Insubstantiality, GURPS Supers even
gives you the Unusual Background point costs to balance supers against
"normals." Check page 11 of GURPS Supers.
250 points: The PCs are the only supers on the planet.
200 points: The PCs and one or two other groups are the only supers.
150 points: Only a small handful of super groups in each country.
100 points: Almost all large cities have a super or two.
50 points: It's not unusual to see a super or two while shopping.
25 points: Everybody knows a super.
0 points: Everybody has super powers.
In a typical fantasy theme, something like Insubstantiality would be rare
enough that the cost would fall into one of the higher categories, say 150
points. That's a total of 230 points for the immunity. Expensive enough
for you?
Ian White
ian_...@milton.edu
Please don't email me at jba...@cybercom.net
Matthew J Wilson
Ray & Cristie Cochener <silv...@feist.com> writes:
>Daniel Arnold Hopping wrote:
>>
>> two things about powers vs equipment
>> 1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
>> confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
>> opponent can grab it.
>>
>> 2:if the players like guns, pull out a group of villans with
>> In-Betweener invunerability (only 1 pt of dmg per die from bullets and
>> impaling, modified by caliber and type after dr) with dr 14 and
>> regeneration- about 127 pts(85 if dr is kevlar) for goons at 100 point
>> level after disads. watch as ammo from ap assault rifle bounces off
>> harmlessly :>
> Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
>equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
>effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
>why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
>measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
>a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
>for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
>general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
>luck. The problem is, they aren't.
That's because they can't be. Some advantages have greater values in
certain societies or tech levels than others - you can't place a general
value across the entire spectrum and expect it to be fair in all
circumstances. To take the mathematical ability example, it just plain
isn't worth as much now as it was five hundred years ago, because peeple
can just carry calculators. And as the tech becomes more compact and
widespread, mathematical ability will be worth even less. But the value
of, for example, Common Sense isn't changing that much. So the disparity
between the costs of these advantages wil vary by tech level and, in some
circumstances, by society. This is the price that has to be paid for a
cross-genre system. (You should see Torg - it didn't require people to
pay extra for high tech, and got *really* nasty).
--
Matt.
Nis Haller Baggesen
Daniel Arnold Hopping wrote:
> two things about powers vs equipment
> 1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
> confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
> opponent can grab it.
>
True - But even so a power is less of an advantage, if it is easialy
matched, or even surpassed by available equipment. And noone ever said
that advantages should be free, just because campaing TL has caugth up
with them. It should just cost less.
> 2:if the players like guns, pull out a group of villans with
> In-Betweener invunerability (only 1 pt of dmg per die from bullets and
> impaling, modified by caliber and type after dr) with dr 14 and
> regeneration- about 127 pts(85 if dr is kevlar) for goons at 100 point
> level after disads. watch as ammo from ap assault rifle bounces off
> harmlessly :>
And how would an advantage or superpower equivilent to an assaultrifle
be any better? Besides I thougth the problem we were discussing, were
advantages that are matched by the available tech. In-Betweener
Invunerability obviously isn't in your example, so it would still be
worth its full point cost.
Nis
Nis Haller Baggesen
> >1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
> >confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
> >opponent can grab it.
>
> going to be labelled a villian, and hunted down by the law enforcement
> authorities. Supers don't get that - they have to do soemthing apart from
> being vigilantes before they're hunted down.
>
After all super villians, are pursued by the police dispite their
superpowers, and superheroes like Batman who rely on equipment, are
respected by the police. It the advantage 'Certified Hero' that makes
the difference.
Nis
Nis Haller Baggesen
Pierce Nichols wrote:
>
> > Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
> > equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> > effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> > why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> > measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> > a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> > for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> > general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> > luck. The problem is, they aren't.
>
> pocket calculators (except for, IMC, space piloting, where people with
> lightning calculator get a bonus because they can do vector algebra in
> their heads), but math ability does not. It still gives you a nice fat
> skill bonus on most of the sciences, computer programming, and
> electronics.
>
increased dependense on computers and electronics. But the important
thing is, that the value varies depending on the general tech level.
Nis
Nis Haller Baggesen
Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
> Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
> equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> luck. The problem is, they aren't.
The net worth of advantages is not unrelated to the available equipment.
After the invention of the microprocessor, 25 points in DX increases is
still pretty valuable, but lightning calculator isn't. Also claws get
outdated by swords and guns - thats why humans and not predatory cats is
the dominant species on Earth.
The list goes on - Nigthsigth can be matched by light-intensification or
infrared goggles. Fligth can be matched by contragravity. Regeneration
by advanced medical tech. Etc.
Of couse in many of these cases the advantage will still be superior,
because it is (presuably) always availble, and allways works. But most
generally available equipment can be relied on to work, and with a
little planning you will have it with you when you need it. And if
equipment doesn't cost charaterpoints, and the cost of advantages is not
moderated, then I know what I would choose in a moderately advanced
society - Wealth and equipment.
Nis
Nis Haller Baggesen
> >equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> >effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> >why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> >measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> >a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> >for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> >general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> >luck. The problem is, they aren't.
>
> certain societies or tech levels than others - you can't place a general
> value across the entire spectrum and expect it to be fair in all
> circumstances. To take the mathematical ability example, it just plain
> isn't worth as much now as it was five hundred years ago, because peeple
> can just carry calculators.
Five hundred years ago, few people bothered with mathematics.
> And as the tech becomes more compact and
> widespread, mathematical ability will be worth even less.
I think your thinking of lightning calculator. After all, mathematical
ability gives you a bonus on skills involving computers and electronics,
and thus becomes more valuable as the use of electronics becomes more
widespread
> But the value
> of, for example, Common Sense isn't changing that much. So the disparity
> between the costs of these advantages wil vary by tech level and, in some
> circumstances, by society. This is the price that has to be paid for a
> cross-genre system. (You should see Torg - it didn't require people to
> pay extra for high tech, and got *really* nasty).
>
Nis
Nis Haller Baggesen
Incanus wrote:
>
> > > Even if you gave players more points, would they then invest them in
> > > super powers? If it takes 15 points for a superpower to match a handgun,
> > > and somewhat more to match an assaultrifle, then a player who wants to
> > > then easialy buy what he needed to match the other supers. Of course you
> > > could say that this goes against the Four Colour genre, but if you want
> > > to stay in that genre, then it would be quite natural to let superpowers
> > > be cheap. After all, as long as a power can be matched by easily
> > > obtainable equipment it isn't really much of an advantage.
>
> advantages/disadvantages not by ease to obtain means to use it, but in
> how many situations you can use it.
>
advantages depends (in part) upon the availability of 'matching'
equipment, and thus the value is relative as well.
> Imagine two characters of equal point value with nothing on them but the
> clothes they were; however, one has several levels of Multimillionaire
> and a Guns skill of twentysomething, while the other has high stats and
> a couple of superpowers, say, useful in combat.
> Now, imagine those same two guys stranded in desert and devoid of
> everything but the clothes on their backs: which one would be more
> useful when a tribe of enraged Berber warriors come their way? Trust me,
> no wealth in the world and no Guns skill will help you in such a
> situation -- unlike, OTOH, powers you can carry with yourself regardless
> of setting or situation (like IQ, Telepathy or Lightning).
>
A) This situations is obviously made up grossly in favor of the super,
and asuming that players have some idea what type of campaign the are
getting into, and that characters have some way of controlling what
happens to them, then it would propably never occur in ply. B) The
multimillionaire could pull out his cellphone (It would obviously be in
his pocket) and call in an airstike and a rescuechopper before the poor
berbers where more than a could of dust in the horizon. C)The
multimillionaire advantage includes some status and reputation, so the
berbers would propably be willing to negotiate with the
multimillionaire, or at least be willing to ransom him for part of his
money. D) What would the super do? Ok he has a combatpower equivilent to
an assaultrifle - Unfortunately all the berbers have rifles as well, and
they are twenty. E) Conclusion: Having triumphantly killed the berbers,
the supers dies of starvation in the desert (His powers didn't help him
there), while the multimillionaire, enjoys himself in the berber camp,
having signed an agreement to support them financially in their quest to
find oil in their part of the desert.
Also I never claimed that wealth could do everything. I just claimed
that it can get you equipment, and that it is thus a damn lot more
usefull that a superpower that is equal to an assaultrifle.
> And as a GM, I would always punish a player thinking the way you do --
> not because I like to punish people, but because it's roleplaying, and
> just because we're playing in one genre doesn't mean that "nonstandard"
> situations can't appear.
>
As a GM I would 'punish' that style of playing as well. I just went into
munchkinmode to prove a point. However as a GM i wouldn't 'punish'
players who were true to the genre, and because of this chose some
'outdated' advantges, and that is what I think your doing if you charge
15 points for claws in a cyperpunk world.
As for nonstandard situations, one could argue that the wealty person
would stand a better chance, since he can afford to by the equipment
needed to take care of the situation, where the supers can't really
change their powers.
Nis
Xiphias Gladius
Daniel Arnold Hopping <daho...@eos.ncsu.edu> writes:
>2:if the players like guns, pull out a group of villans with
>In-Betweener invunerability (only 1 pt of dmg per die from bullets and
>impaling, modified by caliber and type after dr) with dr 14 and
>regeneration- about 127 pts(85 if dr is kevlar) for goons at 100 point
>level after disads. watch as ammo from ap assault rifle bounces off
>harmlessly :>
In-Betweener Invulnerability is a great advantage to give bad guys if your
players like mixing it up hand-to-hand. I ran a combat scenario once with
one player, a martial-artist/special forces type against a Tonton Makut
from Voodoo. The player was eventually able to dispatch the critter, but
it wasn't easy. The player enjoyed the challenge, and it gave us a chance
to practice using the Martial Arts rules.
(The fact that I'd put a fire axe in the room helped the player, too . .
.)
- Ian
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
>
> Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If you want heroes with POWER, give 'em more points.. this thing about "oh,
> > > > power has to be affordable" is pure bull.
> > > >
> > > super powers? If it takes 15 points for a superpower to match a handgun,
> > > and somewhat more to match an assaultrifle, then a player who wants to
> > > then easialy buy what he needed to match the other supers. Of course you
> > > could say that this goes against the Four Colour genre, but if you want
> > > to stay in that genre, then it would be quite natural to let superpowers
> > > be cheap. After all, as long as a power can be matched by easily
> > > obtainable equipment it isn't really much of an advantage.
> > >
> >
> > ridiculous! As for powers matched by equipment, it depends on TL- at
> > TL:14 instant regeneration and flight can be produced by equipment!
>
> Of course equipment effects depend on TL - Thats propably why many
> people in this thread has said that advantage values should depend on
> TL. Because an advantage should be wayed against the powers of people
> without the advantage. If 'everybody' at TL 14 can instantly regenerate
> because of the available tech, its not much of an advantage.
>
> Nis
It's also part of the realism. Whether through evolution or changes in
the methods of training, abilities which are harder to develop naturally
then they are worth will tend to be much rarer than abilities which are
effecient to utelize.
With sufficiently advanced technology, the only advantages worth
anything are artistic ones.
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
>
> Pierce Nichols wrote:
> >
> > > Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
> > > equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> > > effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> > > why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> > > measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> > > a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> > > for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> > > general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> > > luck. The problem is, they aren't.
> >
> > pocket calculators (except for, IMC, space piloting, where people with
> > lightning calculator get a bonus because they can do vector algebra in
> > their heads), but math ability does not. It still gives you a nice fat
> > skill bonus on most of the sciences, computer programming, and
> > electronics.
> >
> So actually mathematical ability propably gets more valuable, with
> increased dependense on computers and electronics. But the important
> thing is, that the value varies depending on the general tech level.
>
environment (including TL). The more valuable, the more frequently it
will appear. In training there is a small gap, in evolution a larger
one, but the tendancy of a society to produce "cost effecient" people is
one of the few constants.
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
>
> Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
>
> > Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
> > equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> > effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> > why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> > measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> > a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> > for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> > general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> > luck. The problem is, they aren't.
>
> After the invention of the microprocessor, 25 points in DX increases is
> still pretty valuable, but lightning calculator isn't. Also claws get
> outdated by swords and guns - thats why humans and not predatory cats is
> the dominant species on Earth.
That's fine- but the point is that the genetic cost of having claws
does not change because of technology. The necessity for an environment
that fosters a lightning calculator does not change (yet!) because the
calculator is introduced.
Now if we start talking about genetic engineering, more effecient
training techniques, or cybernentics, yes, these should affect the cost-
but other than this cost remains the same with benefits changing.
Of course, ineffecient point usage can also result in a free "unusual
background", since not many people in a WW2 environment expect expertise
in hand to hand combat- more of the training centered on guns.
Ray & Cristie Cochener
Matthew J Wilson wrote:
>
> Ray & Cristie Cochener <silv...@feist.com> writes:
>
> >Daniel Arnold Hopping wrote:
> >>
> >> 1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
> >> confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
> >> opponent can grab it.
> >>
> >> In-Betweener invunerability (only 1 pt of dmg per die from bullets and
> >> impaling, modified by caliber and type after dr) with dr 14 and
> >> regeneration- about 127 pts(85 if dr is kevlar) for goons at 100 point
> >> level after disads. watch as ammo from ap assault rifle bounces off
> >> harmlessly :>
>
> >equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> >effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> >why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> >measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> >a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> >for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> >general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> >luck. The problem is, they aren't.
>
> certain societies or tech levels than others - you can't place a general
> value across the entire spectrum and expect it to be fair in all
> circumstances. To take the mathematical ability example, it just plain
> isn't worth as much now as it was five hundred years ago, because peeple
> widespread, mathematical ability will be worth even less. But the value
> of, for example, Common Sense isn't changing that much. So the disparity
> between the costs of these advantages wil vary by tech level and, in some
> circumstances, by society. This is the price that has to be paid for a
> cross-genre system. (You should see Torg - it didn't require people to
> pay extra for high tech, and got *really* nasty).
>
okay, but let us add another vector to your analysis- every advantage
has both a cost and a benefit. The points are the cost, the utility is
the benefit. Something which is less valuable tends to occur less. There
are people in my father's generation who would open the phone book to a
random page and add all the phone numbers by column. Durring Appollo 13,
a score of people would do the math on paper in seconds to get the
results for the mission. Those abilities aren't worth as much today, and
people don't do that anymore. The training and background necessary to
do that have not changed, but the inclination to devlop those abilities
has.
Now does my argument make sense?
Matthew J Wilson
Nis Haller Baggesen <u97...@daimi.aau.dk> writes:
>Matthew J Wilson wrote:
>>
>> Daniel Arnold Hopping <daho...@eos.ncsu.edu> writes:
>>
>> >two things about powers vs equipment
>> >1: powers are always there, but equipment malfunctions, gets
>> >confinscated by police, needs lots of amo, and has weight. plus your
>> >opponent can grab it.
>>
>> I think this is really the key. If you run around shooting people, you're
>> going to be labelled a villian, and hunted down by the law enforcement
>> authorities. Supers don't get that - they have to do soemthing apart from
>> being vigilantes before they're hunted down.
>>
>That is propably more of a genre-thing than an effect of super powers.
>After all super villians, are pursued by the police dispite their
>superpowers, and superheroes like Batman who rely on equipment, are
>respected by the police. It the advantage 'Certified Hero' that makes
>the difference.
Yes, but it's really a behaviour thing. Batman doesn't kill except in
defense of self or others, and doesn't generally use firearms.
Supervillians break the law and threaten the well being of innocents
(which, technically, heroes do as well, but not deliberately). It's more
of an intent thing - if you're going out there with the intent to break
the law and kill people, then you're on the "bad" list. If you're going
out there to stop people on the "bad" list, then you're on the "good"
list. Just make sure you've got good PR. (And that your enemy doesn't,
there's nothing more frustrating than a popular villian).
Of course, you could just call it "Legal Enforcement Powers - Superhero"
and charge about 10 points for it, as well :)
--
Matt.
Bruce L. Grubb
In article <6akle0$dns$1...@lator.cybercom.net>, jba...@cybercom.net (Justin
Basilico) wrote:
> andi jones (an...@angelwerks.com) wrote:
>
> : imagine a character in a fantasy setting with insubstantiality; for 80
> : points, you'd be immune to 99% of the weapons in the world. in a supers
> : setting, there are enough people with psionic and energy-based powers that
> : the insubstantial person can be kept in check. but in the fantasy setting?
> : you'd have to assign an awfully high point-cost to insubstantiality in
> : that case to make it balanced.
>
> Two words: Unusual Background.
>
> This kind of problem is /exactly/ what the advantage was written for. OF
> COURSE certain powers are going to be more useful in certain settings.
> That's why you add a point surcharge in Unusual Background if someone is
> going to possess an ability that most people do not have.
Unusual Background is also a great cure for things along the line of the
Invisiblity 25, Flight 25/Wereeagle, and combat spell 25 sillyness talked
about last year in the Abusive mage thread.
To represent the difficulty of finding a teacher of Skill 18+ I use the
following Unusual Background costs:
Skill 19-20 UB 10
Skill 21-25 UB 20
Skill 26+ UB 25 +5/level over 26
Modifiers
Mental skill - preresiquites skills/2 [round up]
1-2 preresiquites = +1, 5-6 = +3, 9-10 is +5 and so on.
Physical skill - +1 for each preresiquite skill required
Additional skills
+1 if it is related/ +5 is if it unrelated or requires knowledge of a
'hostile' magical college.
Since the college of Light and Darkness has no damage dealing spells
munckin mineded players have to have to get a UB of 26 to explain having
Invisiblity and then spend another 20+ points on UB to get a combat spell
at skill 25. Never mind the cost for the Were Eagle or Flight spell.
As if this wasn't bad enough I use ideas for a few of the more expensive
Invisable Man films: Spells like Fog, Rain, Frost, Hail, and Snow will
form an outline about the invisable being if kept light enough. Also from
the wording Mage Sight seems to spot mages (but not non-mages) using the
Invisablity spell.
Blind Fighting is another method of dealing with the 'I am Invisible and
flying so nothing can hurt me types'
> In the case of superpowers, like Insubstantiality, GURPS Supers even
> gives you the Unusual Background point costs to balance supers against
> "normals." Check page 11 of GURPS Supers.
>
> 250 points: The PCs are the only supers on the planet.
> 200 points: The PCs and one or two other groups are the only supers.
> 150 points: Only a small handful of super groups in each country.
> 100 points: Almost all large cities have a super or two.
> 50 points: It's not unusual to see a super or two while shopping.
> 25 points: Everybody knows a super.
> 0 points: Everybody has super powers.
>
> In a typical fantasy theme, something like Insubstantiality would be rare
> enough that the cost would fall into one of the higher categories, say 150
> points. That's a total of 230 points for the immunity. Expensive enough
> for you?
Problem is that the Fantasy equivalent of Insubstantiality Ethereal Body
(M72) is at worst 160 points and can be as cheap as 60 points if bought as
a knack. If bought as a racial-inate spell the cost drops like a stone
only requiring the Magery (15) or Mana Enchancment advantage (25) for the
'bought as if it was a normally learned spell' ability to work in normal
or low mana areas.
While super powers in a typical theme are very rare the magic equivalent
usially isn't putting the super in a really bad way in comparison to the
magic way of doing the same way. Ghosts whose powers are best explained
as innate Ethereal Body are going to pound the now insanely expensive
super into the ground.
tomansky
Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
> The list goes on - Nigthsigth can be matched by light-intensification or
> infrared goggles. Fligth can be matched by contragravity. Regeneration
> by advanced medical tech. Etc.
> Of couse in many of these cases the advantage will still be superior,
> because it is (presuably) always availble, and allways works. But most
> generally available equipment can be relied on to work, and with a
> little planning you will have it with you when you need it. And if
> equipment doesn't cost charaterpoints, and the cost of advantages is not
> moderated, then I know what I would choose in a moderately advanced
> society - Wealth and equipment.
Ya'll must have loved "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" recently. The
Vamps put together an ancient artifact, which is basically a suit of
armor inhabited by a really nasty demon. He "cannot be killed by
any weapon forged." Buffy acquires a rocket launcher and chases
them to the mall. She squares off against him. "No weapon forged
can harm me," he bellows. "That was then, this is now." The vamps
realize their tactical error and jump for cover. She fires the
rocket; end of problem. Tech really does change the equation.
David Levi
EBS 110277
bgr...@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb) wrote:
>Unusual Background is also a great cure for things along the line of the
>Invisiblity 25, Flight 25/Wereeagle, and combat spell 25 sillyness talked
>about last year in the Abusive mage thread.
>
>To represent the difficulty of finding a teacher of Skill 18+ I use the
>following Unusual Background costs:
>
>Skill 19-20 UB 10
>Skill 21-25 UB 20
>Skill 26+ UB 25 +5/level over 26
I'm sorry, Teacher? If you do something often enough you'll get better at it
weather or not you have a teacher. A Mage doesn't need a teacher to reach
skill level 25. I think that the UB cost you charge is far too high,
especially above skill 26, though I could see you charging double points to buy
higher skill levels to represent "self training", similar to the rules for
learning new skills in the Basic Set.
Eric Smith
EBS 110...@aol.com
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat.
Help! The paranoids are out to get me!
An honest politician is one who stays bought.
A wise man knows everything, a shrewd one, everybody.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Nis Haller Baggesen
Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
>
> >
> > Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
> >
> > > Also point values should be completely unrelated to questions of
> > > equipment. sure mathematical ability and lightning calculator are less
> > > effective after the development of the intel microprocessor- which is
> > > why fewer people have those abilities than in 1945. Point costs should
> > > measure the generic value of an advantage compared to other advantages.
> > > a 25 points for increased move had better be pretty close to 25 points
> > > for an extra point of DX!, and 15 point claws should be on the same
> > > general level as magery 1, hyper-reflexes, danger sense, intuition, or
> > > luck. The problem is, they aren't.
> >
> > After the invention of the microprocessor, 25 points in DX increases is
> > still pretty valuable, but lightning calculator isn't. Also claws get
> > outdated by swords and guns - thats why humans and not predatory cats is
> > the dominant species on Earth.
>
> That's fine- but the point is that the genetic cost of having claws
> does not change because of technology. The necessity for an environment
> that fosters a lightning calculator does not change (yet!) because the
> calculator is introduced.
> Now if we start talking about genetic engineering, more effecient
> training techniques, or cybernentics, yes, these should affect the cost-
> but other than this cost remains the same with benefits changing.
> Of course, ineffecient point usage can also result in a free "unusual
> background", since not many people in a WW2 environment expect expertise
> in hand to hand combat- more of the training centered on guns.
>
system was intended to model the genetic effort (For lack of better
term) put into delevoping a certain advantage. The simple fact that the
ad/disad list includes things like wealth and status rules this out.
Besides you started out talking about a generic value of advantages, not
a genetic value of advantages, and it was the generic (As in equally
apliable in all genres) part that I was arguing against. True the
genetic effort of developing claws does not change simply because
someone invest guns, but its game worth (And thats what I presume the
GURPS is trying to express in its point system) does.
Nis
Nis Haller Baggesen
Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
> okay, but let us add another vector to your analysis- every advantage
> has both a cost and a benefit. The points are the cost, the utility is
> the benefit. Something which is less valuable tends to occur less. There
> are people in my father's generation who would open the phone book to a
> random page and add all the phone numbers by column. Durring Appollo 13,
> a score of people would do the math on paper in seconds to get the
> results for the mission. Those abilities aren't worth as much today, and
> people don't do that anymore. The training and background necessary to
> do that have not changed, but the inclination to devlop those abilities
> has.
> Now does my argument make sense?
Yes - Your argument makes sense, if the GURPS values where dependent
upon the effort needed to develop an ability etc. However the GURPS cost
is dependent upont the abilitys useability, and thus when a certain
ability becomes less useable, it should cost less.
Nis
Bruce L. Grubb
In article <19980129042...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
ebs1...@aol.com (EBS 110277) wrote:
> bgr...@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb) wrote:
>
> >Unusual Background is also a great cure for things along the line of the
> >Invisiblity 25, Flight 25/Wereeagle, and combat spell 25 sillyness talked
> >about last year in the Abusive mage thread.
> >
> >To represent the difficulty of finding a teacher of Skill 18+ I use the
> >following Unusual Background costs:
> >
> >Skill 19-20 UB 10
> >Skill 21-25 UB 20
> >Skill 26+ UB 25 +5/level over 26
>
> I'm sorry, Teacher? If you do something often enough you'll get better at it
> weather or not you have a teacher. A Mage doesn't need a teacher to reach
> skill level 25.
Beggining character costs assumine a teacher. Without one the time and
therefore point costs double (B83 sidebar). It was simpler to come up
with consistant UB costs than do the somewhat complicated double points
thing.
> I think that the UB cost you charge is far too high,
> especially above skill 26, though I could see you charging double points
> to buy higher skill levels to represent "self training", similar to the
> rules for learning new skills in the Basic Set.
Given that the UB costs cover BOTH Physical and Mental skills and that
that anyone with skill 17+ is somewhat hard to find they are accually very
cheap.
Here is a table of the extra costs for the skill ranges above, using the
double points system you suggest. Remember that the accual baseline is 16
NOT 18 and I have included a weighted average [WA] ie (3*M/E-H + M/VH +
3*P)/7 so you can see what an all inclusive UB cost would really be.
M/E-H M/VH P WA
Skill 19-20 6-8 12-16 24-32 15-19 UB 10
Skill 21-25 10-18 20-36 40-72 24-44 UB 20
Skill 26+ 20 +2 40 +4 80 +8 49 +5 UB 25 +5/level over 26
Except for Mental Easy through Mental Hard Skills my UB costs are
*cheaper* than your system. Especially when you account for the fact that
my UB costs are for *all* skills. Also the Weighted average show you
where I got the +5 from.
Ray Cochener
tomansky wrote:
>
> Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
Besides which, a missile is not exactly a forged weapon- then again,
neither is the average modern steak knife...
Ray Cochener
Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
>
> Ray & Cristie Cochener wrote:
> >
> > Nis Haller Baggesen wrote:
> > >
> > >
Genetics is only one example- claws will (ussually) be genetic, while
eidectic memory could be either training or genes, and wealth is
entirely circumstantial- the point is that everything is a trade-off,
and setting up a fair pricing system means that sometimes each advantage
will be worth more than at other times- according to circumstances, but
on average equal points will have equal outcome.
The problm is that when something is made expensive for one genre where
it excels, then it gets killed in other genres because it is out of
ballance.