T$R Newest "Product"
Stephen Gill
>Believe it or not, folks, T$R's latest product is:
>CTRL-L inserted for people who can't stand greed:
>A Hardbound version of the 1993 Catalog.
>You buy it.
>Its not a freebie.
>You pay money for the catalog.
>It does include 32 pages of interviews and insights, but this sounds
>like the most colossal rip-off in history of the RPG industry,
>with the possible exception of Dangerous Journeys.
>Price is not indicated in the ad, which I saw on the inside front
>cover of the new issue of Games magazine.
People will buy it, there's one born every minute.
Who are we, gamers in general, to complain? We put up with DRAGON when it
refused to recognise the existence of anything non-DnD. Here in the UK
the biggest selling 'roleplaying magazine' is CITADEL'S monthly catalogue
WHITE DWARF, which ten years ago was the only independant mag going.
It looks to me like roleplayers in general are lost when it comes to
careful buying, how many of you have bought games that you've never even
read, never mind played. I must admit I'm into double figures and must be
getting close to triple figures by now.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Gill, internet TUK...@maccvm.corp.mot.com
MOTOROLA LMPS, European fin. MIS, Camberley Surrey UK
These opinions are mine, mine all mine nya,ha,ha !
Bruce Patrick Chapman
>It looks to me like roleplayers in general are lost when it comes to
>careful buying, how many of you have bought games that you've never even
>read, never mind played. I must admit I'm into double figures and must be
>getting close to triple figures by now.
>
and in many cases, don't _still_ play...
something one of the local gaming stores has started doing, is opening the
game, doing a test run, and _then_ seeing if you want to buy it - doesn't
hurt them, and certainly encourages more people to buy.
does anyone else have a local store with a similar policy? and how many of
your locals run gaming clubs?
cheers!
c.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is forwarded mail. Please send all comments etc. to the following
address: <900...@mcmaster.bitnet>
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Peter Michael Betz
>
>>Believe it or not, folks, T$R's latest product is:
>>CTRL-L inserted for people who can't stand greed:
I can stand greed, what I can't stand is rampant idiocy, which makes me
wonder why I'm responding to this post.
>>A Hardbound version of the 1993 Catalog.
>>You buy it.
>>Its not a freebie.
>>You pay money for the catalog.
>>It does include 32 pages of interviews and insights, but this sounds
>>like the most colossal rip-off in history of the RPG industry,
>>with the possible exception of Dangerous Journeys.
It's amazing. For a hobby that claims to be the refuge of the
intellectually superior, roleplayers have this unique talent to make shit
come out of both of their major orfices!!
>>Price is not indicated in the ad, which I saw on the inside front
>>cover of the new issue of Games magazine.
Ooooohhh, the bastion of journalistic integrity there!!
>People will buy it, there's one born every minute.
Like you, or anyone else who clings to the errantly misguided belief that
TSR (note no dollar sign) is commiting a hanous crimg against poor suffering
gamers anywhere? Get real.
If any of you had bothered to go out into the real world before
suffering from such an errant case of diarreha of the mouth, you would
realize that many companies sell their catalogs. When I was still at home
and working in my parent's hardware store, they would buy catalogs
regularly. There is a minor industry that revolves around the sale of said
items.
Who are we, gamers in general, to complain? We put up with DRAGON when it
>refused to recognise the existence of anything non-DnD. Here in the UK
>the biggest selling 'roleplaying magazine' is CITADEL'S monthly catalogue
>WHITE DWARF, which ten years ago was the only independant mag going.
The term "bunch of idiots with their heads in their asses" comes to mind.
>It looks to me like roleplayers in general are lost when it comes to
>careful buying, how many of you have bought games that you've never even
>read, never mind played. I must admit I'm into double figures and must be
>getting close to triple figures by now.
No, it just means that you're stupid, that's all.
The Human Mi-Go
In article <1992Dec21....@schbbs.mot.com>, TUK...@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Stephen Gill) writes:
|> Who are we, gamers in general, to complain? We put up with DRAGON when it
|> refused to recognise the existence of anything non-DnD. Here in the UK
|> the biggest selling 'roleplaying magazine' is CITADEL'S monthly catalogue
|> WHITE DWARF, which ten years ago was the only independant mag going.
WHITE DWARF was not independent at any stage of its existence.
It was created and published by and for Games Workshop.
--
bob_c...@mentorg.com "More dynamite!" - Theron Marks
Philip Dutre
So?
Before GW started producing & selling their entire Warhammer range, WD was
already in existence for several years (since 1978 or so...). Warhammer 1st
edition was only launched in 1983, and was then produced by Citadel (not GW
at that time!). WD turned into a complete GW house mag from issue 100 onwards.
If you grab any issue from before that date, you'll find a lot of articles
featuring AD&D, CoC, Stormbringer etc...
WD certainly has developed into a non-roleplaying mag (unless you call WH40K,
WFB and Space Marine roleplaying games), but was certainly the leading FRP
magazine during the early eighties.
--
| Phil Dutre Dept. Computer Wetenschappen |
| phi...@cs.kuleuven.ac.be Katholieke Universiteit Leuven (KUL)|
| Phone: (32) 16 201015 x3094/3552 Celestijnenlaan 200A |
| Fax: (32) 16 205308 B-3001 Heverlee, BELGIUM |
The Human Mi-Go
In article <1992Dec23.2...@cs.kuleuven.ac.be>, phi...@cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Philip Dutre) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec23.1...@news.mentorg.com>, bcan...@hppcb36.mentorg.com (The Human Mi-Go) writes:
|> |> WHITE DWARF was not independent at any stage of its existence.
|> |> It was created and published by and for Games Workshop.
|>
|> So?
So calling it "independent" was just plain wrong.
|> Before GW started producing & selling their entire Warhammer range, WD was
|> already in existence for several years (since 1978 or so...). Warhammer 1st
|> edition was only launched in 1983, and was then produced by Citadel (not GW
|> at that time!). WD turned into a complete GW house mag from issue 100 onwards.
|> If you grab any issue from before that date, you'll find a lot of articles
|> featuring AD&D, CoC, Stormbringer etc...
I collected WD from about issue 17 onwards, thank you. Did you know that:
GW had UK import and/or printing rights for those games.
As I recall (correct me if my memory is deceiving me) they not only had
printing rights to CoC but exclusive import & distribution rights
as well. If you bought CoC in England, GW would have had their hands on
it at some point. I once owned their softbound AD&D Player's Handbook
imprint, and still have their hardback Stormbringer and 3rd ed. CoC.
So it's not surprising that WD contained CoC articles.
Rule of thumb: if it was in WD it would also be in the GW retail shops.
The issue was cause and effect; in the early days WD would write about it
and GW would try to sell it and get distribution rights. That slowly
changed to: WD would write about it if GW sold it.
|> WD certainly has developed into a non-roleplaying mag (unless you call WH40K,
|> WFB and Space Marine roleplaying games), but was certainly the leading FRP
|> magazine during the early eighties.
I fully agree.
But "good" and "independent" are different things; I know several
current magazines that are tied to specific manufacturers but will
happily publish articles for games by different companies. The
danger is always that some executive in the parent company will notice
that they are "advertising" competitors' products and decide that
Something Must Be Done. That's what happened to WD.
Aside: When GW dropped various licenses including CoC, outraged
gamers wrote in to ask what was going on, and WD's reply was along
the lines of "These games have run their course". They really should
have told Chaosium! :-)
Philip Dutre
|> |> |> WHITE DWARF was not independent at any stage of its existence.
|> |> |> It was created and published by and for Games Workshop.
|> |>
|> |> So?
|>
|> So calling it "independent" was just plain wrong.
Okay. When you said "It was created and published by and for GW", I presumed
you were referring to the current situation, were only the GW house games
are covered in the Dwarf.
|>
|> |> Before GW started producing & selling their entire Warhammer range, WD was
|> |> already in existence for several years (since 1978 or so...). Warhammer 1st
|> |> edition was only launched in 1983, and was then produced by Citadel (not GW
|> |> at that time!). WD turned into a complete GW house mag from issue 100 onwards.
|> |> If you grab any issue from before that date, you'll find a lot of articles
|> |> featuring AD&D, CoC, Stormbringer etc...
|>
|> I collected WD from about issue 17 onwards, thank you. Did you know that:
|>
|> GW had UK import and/or printing rights for those games.
I knew that, but never made the link between the games that were covered by
WD and the games that were sold by GW stores. Indeed, if this were the case,
you can hardly call "the old Dwarf" an independent magazine.
|>
|> |> WD certainly has developed into a non-roleplaying mag (unless you call WH40K,
|> |> WFB and Space Marine roleplaying games), but was certainly the leading FRP
|> |> magazine during the early eighties.
|>
|> I fully agree.
|>
|> But "good" and "independent" are different things; I know several
|> current magazines that are tied to specific manufacturers but will
|> happily publish articles for games by different companies. The
|> danger is always that some executive in the parent company will notice
|> that they are "advertising" competitors' products and decide that
|> Something Must Be Done. That's what happened to WD.
I agree. I just hope White Wolf magazine isn't heading in that direction :-)
BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know
a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are
turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved"
games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more
and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise
marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger
players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?
Stephen Gill
>I collected WD from about issue 17 onwards, thank you. Did you know that
> GW had UK import and/or printing rights for those games.
>
>As I recall (correct me if my memory is deceiving me) they not only had
>printing rights to CoC but exclusive import & distribution rights
>as well. If you bought CoC in England, GW would have had their hands on
>it at some point. I once owned their softbound AD&D Player's Handbook
>imprint, and still have their hardback Stormbringer and 3rd ed. CoC.
>So it's not surprising that WD contained CoC articles.
>Rule of thumb: if it was in WD it would also be in the GW retail shops.
>The issue was cause and effect; in the early days WD would write about
>it and GW would try to sell it and get distribution rights. That slowly
>changed to: WD would write about it if GW sold it.
Although GW had the full rights to DnD, Runequest, CoC, Traveller etc. WD
often printed articles and scenarios for games that they didn't handle.
The nice thing was that their reviews etc were pretty authoritive, on
more than one occasion they slated a TSR product which GW sold and raved
about a product they didn't have such as Daredevils.
Until I gained access to the net the demise of WD (ie becoming a Citadel
mouthpiece) had left me with no worthwhile reviews to compare products,
excepting short lived mags like GamesMaster & GMI. Now I just read the
arguments here and take a guess based on that.
Stephen Gill
>I knew that, but never made the link between the games that were covered by
>WD and the games that were sold by GW stores. Indeed, if this were the case,
>you can hardly call "the old Dwarf" an independent magazine.
But at the time WD was publishing for ALL the popular games including a
few they hadn't got the rights to (FGU games for example) and they also
had no links to the games at all outside of the UK. I was in Africa a lot
of the time and was just as likely to buy from the US as the UK.
>BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know
>a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are
>turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved"
>games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more
>and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise
>marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger
>players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?
From their folks. If you go into any Games Workshop in the UK nowadays
the vast majority, ninety percent plus, of the customers are under 16s
dragging their parents, with wallets, around.
My favorite range of figures ever, Dark Future - lovely for any Cyber
game - has been stopped by Citadel because the big box with a couple of
bits of plastic in wasn't selling well enough and the game didn't hit
their target demographics correctly. This worries me, the big marketing
words are taking over the hobby fast.
Peter Michael Betz
>From: phi...@cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Philip Dutre)
>
>
>
>My favorite range of figures ever, Dark Future - lovely for any Cyber
>game - has been stopped by Citadel because the big box with a couple of
>bits of plastic in wasn't selling well enough and the game didn't hit
>their target demographics correctly. This worries me, the big marketing
>words are taking over the hobby fast.
Oh, and it didn't really matter that the rules for the game aren't worth a
pile of guacamole?? The only thing that made them even nearly usable was the
WHITE LINE FEVER supplement. They promised a second supplement DEAD MAN'S
CURVE, which never materialized. Even with these, I have the suspicion that
the whole thing would need a MAJOR rewrite, somehow managing to keep a lot
of the nice concepts in the rules (easy to modify vehicles, moddeling
opportunities, etc.) intact before it would be usable. Since Games Sweatshop
doesn't care about them anymore, it looks like a job for Corsair press...
Stephen Gill
>>
>>My favorite range of figures ever, Dark Future - lovely for any Cyber
>>game - has been stopped by Citadel because the big box with a couple of
>>bits of plastic in wasn't selling well enough and the game didn't hit
>>their target demographics correctly. This worries me, the big marketing
>>words are taking over the hobby fast.
>Oh, and it didn't really matter that the rules for the game aren't worth a
>pile of guacamole?? The only thing that made them even nearly usable was the
>WHITE LINE FEVER supplement. They promised a second supplement DEAD MANS
>CURVE, which never materialized. Even with these, I have the suspicion that
>the whole thing would need a MAJOR rewrite, somehow managing to keep a lot
>of the nice concepts in the rules (easy to modify vehicles, moddeling
>opportunities, etc.) intact before it would be usable. Since Games Sweatshop
>doesn't care about them anymore, it looks like a job for Corsair press..
Must admit I never bought the game, was interested but the price put me
off a lot. My joy was the figures which WERE selling very well, to the
point that the moulds of the early designs were starting to die. They
didn't exactly try to market it either compared to their other boxes,
the ones that fit into the 'Warhammer universe' marketing ploy.
What annoyed me was that they axed what I consider to be the best non-
fantasy figure range ever made purely because the boxed set was a flop.
They also managed to axe it before I'd got the entire range, or what I
consider enough of them for my present use: figures for CP2020 games.
They don't get used often, but they're great when they do.
Who are Corsair Press?
By the way, what is 'guacamole'? I've been wondering for a while as it
gets mentioned quite often.
Clay Luther
>By the way, what is 'guacamole'? I've been wondering for a while as it
>gets mentioned quite often.
Take 2 ripe avocados. Gently mash in a bowl.
Add 1/2 chopped onion (red preferred)
Add 1 chopped ripe tomato
Add 1 chopped jalapeno
Add 1/4c chopped cilantro
Add juice of 1/2 lime
Mix together gently. Salt and pepper to taste. Serve with tostados.
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
Stephen Gill
knowledge about guacamole.
George W. Harris
>TUK...@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Stephen Gill) writes:
>
>>By the way, what is 'guacamole'? I've been wondering for a while as it
>>gets mentioned quite often.
>
>Take 2 ripe avocados. Gently mash in a bowl.
>Add 1/2 chopped onion (red preferred)
>Add 1 chopped ripe tomato
>Add 1 chopped jalapeno
>Add 1/4c chopped cilantro
>Add juice of 1/2 lime
>Mix together gently. Salt and pepper to taste. Serve with tostados.
Blecch! You call that CHILI???
>Clay Luther
>clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
--
gha...@jade.tufts.edu
George W. Harris "He'd kill us if he had the chance."
Dept. of Mathematics
Tufts University The Conversation
Clay Luther
>In article <cluther.726363987@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>>TUK...@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Stephen Gill) writes:
>>
>>>By the way, what is 'guacamole'? I've been wondering for a while as it
>>>gets mentioned quite often.
>>
>>Take 2 ripe avocados. Gently mash in a bowl.
>>Add 1/2 chopped onion (red preferred)
>>Add 1 chopped ripe tomato
>>Add 1 chopped jalapeno
>>Add 1/4c chopped cilantro
>>Add juice of 1/2 lime
>>Mix together gently. Salt and pepper to taste. Serve with tostados.
> Blecch! You call that CHILI???
>George W. Harris "He'd kill us if he had the chance."
No, I call chili a savory stew made from shredded chuck, chiles, onions,
comino, garlic, and tomatoes. The salsa above is guacamole.
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
johnjmedway
>gha...@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris) writes:
>
>>In article <cluther.726363987@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>>>TUK...@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Stephen Gill) writes:
>> Blecch! You call that CHILI???
>
>>George W. Harris "He'd kill us if he had the chance."
>
>No, I call chili a savory stew made from shredded chuck, chiles, onions,
>comino, garlic, and tomatoes. The salsa above is guacamole.
ARGH! No!
No tomatoes.
No beans (you got that right).
And for all you poor misguided sould in Cincinnati, Ohio,
you don't put any stinking spaghetti in it!
Ahem, sorry. Maybe I've been in Texas too long.
----------------------------------------------------------------
jme...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu "Take the easy way out
a.k.a. john j medway if it's all you can think of."
-- Hunters & Collectors
----------------------------------------------------------------
Clay Luther
>In article <cluther.726442068@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>>
>>No, I call chili a savory stew made from shredded chuck, chiles, onions,
>>comino, garlic, and tomatoes. The salsa above is guacamole.
>ARGH! No!
>No tomatoes.
>No beans (you got that right).
>And for all you poor misguided sould in Cincinnati, Ohio,
>you don't put any stinking spaghetti in it!
Definitely no beans, but the standard Terlingua Pride chili is tomato based
according to "Foods of the Southwest - Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona" as
is LBJ's favorite chili (Ladybird Chili), but it is made with coarse ground
instead of shredded, and thus not my preferred.
>Ahem, sorry. Maybe I've been in Texas too long.
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>jme...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu "Take the easy way out
>a.k.a. john j medway if it's all you can think of."
> -- Hunters & Collectors
>----------------------------------------------------------------
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu