10/10/94 Duelist Convocation rules
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <37eo7v$2...@perv.hal.COM>, <aa...@hal.COM> writes:
> ** The only change to the deck construction rules was the restriction of
> ** Maze of Ith.
I think it's a credit to the designers that The Dark only generated
one restricted card.
> 4. The following cards are banned from official tournament decks :
> * Shahrazad (LE)
Isn't this an Arabian card?
> time warning not less than 10 (ten) minutes prior to the end of the
> allotted time.
What if a game is started when there is less than 10 minutes left
in the alloted time? I've seen a game started with only seconds
left in the alloted time and the first player quickly played a
Lightning Bolt on turn one, two seconds before the time limit was
up and got credit for the win, giving him the match. Kinda unfair
and the Convocation Rules don't say what to do.
-- Bill
Tom Wylie
** The only change to the deck construction rules was the restriction of
** fact that it's a game-dragger, the fact that several areas have
** degenerated to where four Mazes are almost required (contributing to
** its game-dragging quality), and the fact that in areas such as these
** there is a definite skew towards land destruction decks. Any two,
** or even three, of these would not have resulted in its restriction...
** the four of them combined was enough.
**
** Additions to the floor rules include imposing a time limit if desired,
** and the means of determining the outcome of a match called due to
** time constraints (see floor rule 5). Stalling is specifically prohibited.
** There were other changes to the wording of some rules, which were
** basically cosmetic.
**
** -- Aahz
*/
Duelists' Convocation
WOTC's Official Deckmaster Games Organization
P.O. Box 707 Renton WA 98057-0707
Magic: the Gathering official tournament rules
Includes Magic: the Gathering, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, The Dark
10/10/94 Version
Notes:
* Exclusion of the listing of any expansion set above does
not imply that the expansion set should be banned from tournament
play. Exclusion of any existing expansion set in the above listing
means only that final decisions as to restrictions on cards from that
set have not yet been made.
* The standard rules for Magic: The Gathering apply to
tournament play, except where amended by these rules. In cases where
the official tournament rules differ from the basic rules of Magic,
the official tournament rules take precedence.
Deck Construction Rules:
1. The tournament deck must contain a minimum of 60 (sixty)
cards, total, of all lands, creatures, spells, and artifacts. In addition
to the tournament deck, players may construct a Sideboard of exactly
15 (fifteen) additional cards. Players are not required to use a
Sideboard, but if they do it must always contain exactly 15 (fifteen)
cards. The use of the Sideboard will be further explained under
Floor Rules (rule #7).
2. There may be no more than 4 (four) of any individual card
in the tournament deck (including sideboard), with the exception of
the five basic land types (Plains, Forest, Mountain, Island, Swamp).
3. The Restricted List : No more than 1 (one) of each of the
cards on the Restricted List are allowed in the tournament deck. If
more than 1 (one) of any individual card from the Restricted List are
found in a player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a
Declaration of Forfeiture. The Restricted List may be modified by the
Director of the Duelists' Convocation as necessary. If the card is from a Magic
expansion, following its title will be a two letter code denoting which
expansion it is from. AN = Arabian Nights, AQ = Antiquities, LE = Legends,
and DK = The Dark. The Restricted List is as follows :
* Ali from Cairo (AN)
* Ancestral Recall
* Berserk
* Black Lotus
* Brain Geyser
* Candelabra of Tawnos (AQ)
* Channel
* Chaos Orb
* Copy Artifact
* Demonic Tutor
* Falling Star (LE)
* Feldon's Cane (AQ)
* Ivory Tower (AQ)
* Library of Alexandria (AN)
* Maze of Ith (DK)
* Mind Twist
* Mirror Universe (LE)
* Mishra's Workshop (AQ)
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Mox Jet
* Recall (LE)
* Regrowth
* Sol Ring
* Sword of Ages (LE)
* Time Twister
* Time Walk
* Underworld Dreams (LE)
* Wheel of Fortune
In addition, any "Summon Legend" card is restricted to one
each, as are each of the Legendary Lands from the Legends
expansion.
4. The following cards are banned from official tournament decks :
* Bronze Tablet (AQ)
* Contract from Below
* Darkpact
* Demonic Attorney
* Divine Intervention (LE)
* Jeweled Bird (AN)
* Rebirth (LE)
* Shahrazad (LE)
* Time Vault
* Tempest Efreet (LE)
Several of the cards on the banned list are not allowed because
they clearly state to remove them from your deck if not playing for
ante, and ante is not required to be wagered in an official
tournament (see Floor Rules, rule #8). Any future cards that make
the same statement will subsequently be banned. This list may be
modified by the Director of the Duelists' Convocation as necessary.
5. Decks may be constructed from Magic cards from the
Limited (black border) series, the Unlimited (white border) series,
Revised Edition, or any Magic expansion (unless expressly disallowed
by the Judge prior to the event). All cards in the tournament deck
must have identical card back design. Under no circumstances will
cards from the Collector's Edition factory sets be permitted in
tournament decks. They are easily distinguished from legal play
cards by their square corners and gold borders. Use of Collector's
Edition factory set cards, or any other cards not expressly permitted,
in a tournament deck will be interpreted by the Judge as a
Declaration of Forfeiture.
Floor Rules :
1. Tournaments may use a standard, single elimination ladder
bracket system, or other approved tournament form. When using a
ladder bracket system, a ladder chart should be prepared with players'
names and Duelists' Convocation membership numbers clearly printed in
their ladder positions. The players should be allowed to view the
chart at any time between their matches, at their request.
2. The number of players in an official tournament should
ideally be a factor of two (i.e., 16, 32, 64, 128...etc.). In the
event that the number of players are not a factor of two, byes may be
assigned randomly during the first round only, and should be done in
such a fashion so that the number of players in the second round is a
factor of two. Players will not receive ranking points for a round in
which they received a bye.
3. Tournaments will be presided over by a Judge, who may be
assisted by as many Assistant Referees as they may need. NEITHER THE
JUDGE NOR THE ASSISTANT REFEREES MAY PLAY IN A TOURNAMENT THAT THEY
ARE ADJUDICATING. A Judge may be required to interpret rules, to
terminate an excessively long match, to interpret a Declaration of
Forfeiture, or make any other adjudication as necessary during the
tournament. The Judge is also responsible for maintaining the ladder
chart, and only the Judge is permitted to write on the chart (i.e.,
listing advancing players on the bracket). Assistant Referees will
aid by answering rules questions on the floor and being available to
the Judge for any other assistance they may require. In necessary
cases, the Judge may overrule any decision made by an Assistant
Referee. The decision of the Judge is always final.
4. A duel is one complete game of Magic. A match is defined as
the best two out of three duels. A player may advance in the
tournament after successfully winning one match, and reporting this
victory to the Judge.
5. In the event of an excessively long match, the Judge may
need to adjudicate the outcome prior to its actual conclusion. In
some cases, the Judge may wish to impose a time limit for each round
of the tournament. In either case, the time limit will not be less
than 45 (forty-five) minutes of playing time for a complete match. In
the event of a long match, the Judge must give the players involved a
time warning not less than 10 (ten) minutes prior to the end of the
allotted time. If at the end of the allotted time the match is not
completed, the Judge will award the victory as follows; if the players
are currently playing the first or third duels of the match, to the
player with the highest life total, if playing the second duel of the
match, to the player who won the first complete duel. SEMI-FINAL OR
FINAL ROUNDS SHOULD NEVER BE ADJUDICATED BY A TIME LIMIT. It is
HIGHLY recommended to allow matches to play to their conclusion
(comebacks from 20-1 have not been unheard of), but in cases where
this is not possible, Judges will use the above format.
6. Players must take their turns in a timely fashion.
Whereas taking some time to think through a situation is acceptable,
stalling for time is not. If the Judge feels that a player is
stalling to take advantage of a time limit, the Judge may issue a
warning, or interpret the stalling as a Declaration of Forfeiture, at
their discretion.
7. Players must use the same deck that they begin the tournament
with throughout the duration of the tournament. The only deck
alteration permitted is through the use of the Sideboard (see Deck
Constuction Rules, rule #1). If a player intends to use a Sideboard
during the course of a match, they must declare to their opponent that
they will be using the Sideboard prior to the beginning of that match.
Players may exchange cards from their deck for cards from their
Sideboard on a one-for-one basis at any time between duels or matches.
There are no restrictions on how many cards a player may exchange in
this way at any given time. Prior to the beginning of any duel, each
player must allow their opponent to count, face down, the number of
cards in their Sideboard. If a player's Sideboard does not total
exactly 15 (fifteen) cards, the Judge or an Assistant Referee must be
consulted to evaluate the situation before the duel can begin. If a
player claims that they are not using a Sideboard at the beginning of
the match, ignore this counting procedure for that player, but no deck
alteration of any kind will be permitted by the Judge for that player
for the duration of that match. Any violation of this rule may be
interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of Forfeiture.
NOTE: The only deck alteration allowable while a duel is in
progress is with the use of a Ring of Ma'Ruf. The Ring of Ma'Ruf may
only be used to retrieve a card from the player's sideboard. Cards
other than the tournament deck and sideboard should not be allowed at
the tournament. In the event that a player uses a Ring of Ma'Ruf to
retrieve a card from their sideboard, the Ring of Ma'ruf used is
placed into the player's sideboard to take the place of the retrieved
card, thus maintaing exactly fifteen cards in the sideboard.
8. Players are not required to wager ante during the tournament.
Players may play for real ante, provided that both participants in the
match give their consent, though this agreement does not allow the
inclusion of the banned ante cards in the tournament deck. Ante cards
won in a tournament must be kept seperate from the tournament deck and
sideboard; they may not be used in the tournament, and are not valid
for use with a Ring of Ma'Ruf. If loss of ante cards from a player's
deck reduces the deck below 60 (sixty) cards, the player no longer has
a legal tournament deck, and will be removed from the tournament
bracket.
9. If a player draws either (a.) no land or (b.) all land cards
on the initial draw of seven cards to begin a duel, they may restart
the duel. To do this, the player must show their opponent that they
have either no land or all land, reshuffle their deck, allow their
opponent to recut the deck, and draw seven new cards. The player's
opponent has the option to do the same, even if their hand does not
qualify for this rule. For example, if player A draws no land and
wishes to reshuffle, player B may opt to also to try to improve the
hand they drew. A player may only use this rule once per duel.
10. The use of "proxy cards" in the tournament deck is not
allowed. A proxy card is one that has been placed into the deck to
represent another card that for one reason or another the player
doesn't want to play with (i.e., using a Swamp with the word
"Nightmare" written on it, because the player doesn't want to play
with their beta Nightmare). Magic: the Gathering is a card game; if
you don't want to play with a card, then don't play with it. If you
want to play with a card, you must put it in your deck...no proxies.
11. The use of plastic sleeves or other protective devices on
cards in the tournament deck is not allowed. These items do not allow
for proper shuffling of a deck, as the plastic tends to stick to
itself.
12. Players may not have any outside assistance (i.e.,
coaching) during a match. If a player is in violation, the Judge may
issue a warning to the player, or interpret the violation as a
Declaration of Forfeiture, at the Judge's discretion.
13. Players must at all times keep the cards in their hand
above the level of the playing surface. If a player is in violation,
the Judge may issue a warning to the player, or interpret the
violation as a Declaration of Forfeiture, at the Judge's discretion.
14. Failure to adhere to the above rules, or any other rules
specific to a particular tournament, may be interpreted by the Judge
as a Declaration of Forfeiture. Only the Judge may make an
interpretation of a Declaration of Forfeiture. This is a more
pleasant way of stating that if a player cheats, the Judge will remove
them from the tournament.
15. Rules note: The Director of the Duelists' Convocation
reserves the exclusive right to add, delete, alter, transmute,
polymorph, switch, color-lace, sleight of mind, magical hack, or in
any other way change these rules, whole or in part, with or without
notice, at any time that it is deemed necessary or desirable. This
right is non-negotiable.
Tom Wylie
>> ** The only change to the deck construction rules was the restriction of
>> ** Maze of Ith.
>I think it's a credit to the designers that The Dark only generated
>one restricted card.
It was specifically engineered to not be restricted, actually. The Maze
of Ith is basically there for reasons of popular demand.
>> 4. The following cards are banned from official tournament decks :
>> * Shahrazad (LE)
>Isn't this an Arabian card?
Oops :) I will mention that to Steve.
>> time warning not less than 10 (ten) minutes prior to the end of the
>> allotted time.
>What if a game is started when there is less than 10 minutes left
>in the alloted time? I've seen a game started with only seconds
>left in the alloted time and the first player quickly played a
>Lightning Bolt on turn one, two seconds before the time limit was
>up and got credit for the win, giving him the match. Kinda unfair
>and the Convocation Rules don't say what to do.
While this is one of those "wing it" situations, the way the rules are
set up, the game would in fact start, and would have less than 10 minutes
to finish. In this case, my recommendation would be to alot one-third
of the normal match time to the duel (15 minutes in the default case),
unless this would excessively delay the tournament.
Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Tom Christiansen
:<bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov> wrote:
:>> ** The only change to the deck construction rules was the restriction of
:>> ** Maze of Ith.
:>I think it's a credit to the designers that The Dark only generated
:>one restricted card.
:It was specifically engineered to not be restricted, actually. The Maze
:of Ith is basically there for reasons of popular demand.
Lovely precedent.
Ok, everyone in unison now: RESTRICT THE HEALING SALVE!!!!
--tom
--
"You need to go and find someone to teach you the rudiments of irrational
discourse." --Larry Wall
Peter M. White
>Tom Wylie (aa...@hal.COM) wrote:
>: While this is one of those "wing it" situations, the way the rules are
>: set up, the game would in fact start, and would have less than 10 minutes
>: to finish. In this case, my recommendation would be to alot one-third
>: of the normal match time to the duel (15 minutes in the default case),
>: unless this would excessively delay the tournament.
>Why these ridiculously short times? Why should tournaments be so geared
>for quick kill decks? This severely restricts some strategies. I think a
>three round match should have a max time closer to 90 minutes than 45.
I think you are misunderstanding slightly. The DC demands a _minimum_
of 45 minutes be available for each match (2 of 3). Allotting
"one third of the match time to the duel" means (I hope I am not
putting words into Tom's mouth) a player should reasonably expect
at least 15 minutes to finish a single game. Therefore, if 2 games
are done, with 5 minutes left, it might be prudent to ask the
judge to extend the time limit 10 minutes.
It is certainly true that timelimits put some strategies at a
disadvantage, especially if the match goes to a third game. To
some degree, that is a necessary concession if you want events that
finish in a single evening.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Randy J. Ray
> Tom Christiansen (tch...@mox.perl.com) wrote:
>
> : Ok, everyone in unison now: RESTRICT THE HEALING SALVE!!!!
>
> : --tom
> : --
> : "You need to go and find someone to teach you the rudiments of
> : irrational
> : discourse." --Larry Wall
>
> of White's only powers is healing and protection. Give White a chance.
Learn to recognize sarcasm.
Besides, what Tom *meant* to say was RESTRICT WHITE NOW!!!
Everyone knows that playing against white is just unfair, with all the healing
spells, circles, and wards available to white-magic players. My creatures just
can't get a shot in at all. Oh, and restrict blue, too... it's just not fair
that one color should have so much countering ability when the other colors
don't...
Randy, who refuses to put in obligatory smileys for the sarcasm-challenged
--
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Denver, CO rj...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Top 10 Ways to Combat Boredom, number 10: Design and implement Ada++.
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Tom Wylie
>: While this is one of those "wing it" situations, the way the rules are
>: set up, the game would in fact start, and would have less than 10 minutes
>: to finish. In this case, my recommendation would be to alot one-third
>: of the normal match time to the duel (15 minutes in the default case),
>: unless this would excessively delay the tournament.
>for quick kill decks? This severely restricts some strategies. I think a
>three round match should have a max time closer to 90 minutes than 45.
The tournament rules do not require 45 minute time limits, or even that
you impose time limits at all; you are perfectly free to use 90 minute
time limits if you think it won't drag things out too long.
It has, however, been my experience that once you get past the first two
or three rounds, matches almost never take more than 45 minutes. Usually
half an hour is enough.
Mark A. Havener
>: :It was specifically engineered to not be restricted, actually. The Maze
>: :of Ith is basically there for reasons of popular demand.
>: Lovely precedent.
> I agree - restricting the Maze was a bad idea... It's not that
>powerful, except against decks which are creature-poor... [my decks tend
>to be creature-heavy :] The Maze is almost useless against a
>weenie-horde...
You guys are kidding, right? "(The Maze of Ith) is not that powerful. . ."
Let's think about that, shall we? Do you mean it's not as powerful as,
say, a zero casting cost artifact that provides one mana of a certain
color? Now that's POWERFUL! Please excuse my sarcasm, but the point
is not how powerful the Maze is, but how unbalancing. This card
predominates in tourney decks in my area right now, and it's forcing
people to adopt one of three themes to their decks: Land Destruction
(just like sixties clothing styles---they're coming back), Weenie Horde
(somewhat effective, but not very if the Maze user has anything decent
to his deck besides the Mazes), and Zap decks (VERY creature poor, and
very effective against Maze users, as the Maze slows down their deck,
while the Zap deck is as fast as ever).
Now don't get the idea that I dislike the Maze of Ith; actually I like the
card. I just think that it tends to dominate play. It requires no
central theme to be used effectively (just pop four in whatever deck you
have and go), and it slows down your opponents deck just as much as it
does yours (unless he plays a Zap deck, see above, but in that case he'll
definitely have his four Mazes also). In fact, probably the biggest
problem (as far as tourney play) is how much four Mazes of Ith can slow
down the matches. There are far more reasons to restrict the Maze than
just "popular opinion."
>: Ok, everyone in unison now: RESTRICT THE HEALING SALVE!!!!
> Tom, *please* don't start that again!!!!!! :)
Jeez yeah, please don't. . .
Mark
"Real Men Play Black"
hav...@ecst.csuchico.edu
Michael J. Feuell
><bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov> wrote:
>>What if a game is started when there is less than 10 minutes left
>>in the alloted time? I've seen a game started with only seconds
>>left in the alloted time and the first player quickly played a
>>Lightning Bolt on turn one, two seconds before the time limit was
>>up and got credit for the win, giving him the match. Kinda unfair
>>and the Convocation Rules don't say what to do.
>
>set up, the game would in fact start, and would have less than 10 minutes
>to finish. In this case, my recommendation would be to alot one-third
>of the normal match time to the duel (15 minutes in the default case),
>unless this would excessively delay the tournament.
How about adding a rule to the effect that both players must have the same
number of turns (unless one dies...) This way it's always fair.
Michael
SluT
>
> Tom, I thought that the only reason that a card is restricted is
>because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
>out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
>pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
>forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
>than a forcefield. I often play a creatureless deck; as far as I can
>tell, most tournement players do the same thing. So why worry about it?
Well.. if Tom won't.. I'll say it.
The Maze of Ith is more powerful than a forcefield.
Reasons: (this assumes the "new" writing forcefield 3mana, tap to use.
The forcefield makes you take 1 damage from any creature of your
choice for 3 mana...
The maze makes you take NO damage from one creature of your choice
for NO mana.
PLUS the maze has the additionaly power to allow you to withdraw one of your
attacking creatures ala the Ebony Horse (also no mana )
Now.... which is more powerful again?
--
____ __ ______ "What is Best in Life?
/ __/ / /_ _/_ __/ To Crush your Enimies, to see them driven before
\_ \ / / /_/ // / you, and to have really great beer, like Keystone
/___//_/\____//_/ and Keystone light." EMAIL: sl...@midway.uchicago.edu
Jason
>because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
>out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
>pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
>forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
>than a forcefield. I often play a creatureless deck; as far as I can
>tell, most tournement players do the same thing. So why worry about it?
Well, Abyss dosn't affect black and artifact creatures, and creatures with
protection black [I may be wrong here]. Thats about 1/3 of the creatures...
Plus, it has a casting cost... Unlike maze of ith. Its an enchantment...
so it can be countered spelled [unlike maze of ith], it can be disenchanted
power leaked, feed backed etc... And best of all, it effects the casters
creatures as well... again, unlike maze of ith. Abyss is a nasty card, but
it isn't as bad as a maze of ith.
Forcefield. Well, it was taken out as a spoiler, so you should expect it
to be nasty, but again, the maze is worse. There are a LOT of ways to deal
with artifacts, EVERY color has them now, in fact has multiple ways to deal
with artifacts. Land on the other hand is harder to deal with. Also again,
the Forcefield has a casting cost where the maze dosn't. Think of it this
way. A forcefield turns each of your lands into a bad maze of ith. You
still take a point of damage for each creature unlike the maze, plus its a
lot more vulnerable.
The worst thing about the maze is that I can cast say a juggernaught on the
first turn, and you can bring out a forcefield. Okay, You have now used 3
cards to get out the forcefield [mox, land, dark ritual say], plus the
forcefield. You've used 4 cards, and you still don't have the mana to use the
forcefield [costs 4 to cast right???] So my jugger hits you for 5. Next turn
it hits you for 1... With the maze, you use 1 card [the maze], and take no
damage. The Abyss of course dosn't do anything in this situation.
I've seen some really good creatureless decks, some better than I could have
made, but they don't tend to work very well against good 4 and 5 color decks.
Mail me your deck if you think I'm wrong. We've come up with a lot of
different createrless decks, but we have yet to make a great one. I've found
that you either focos on creatures too much and get killed by another
creatureless deck, or you focus on creatures too little, and get swarmed.
--
(E-MAIL AU...@FREENET.CARLETON.CA || gru...@gaul.csd.uwo.ca) && I != BNR
Be careful, I confuse easy. || It must be true, I read it on the Internet
It's not over, I haven't won yet! || I want Green Sky
Rich Shipley
: While this is one of those "wing it" situations, the way the rules are
: set up, the game would in fact start, and would have less than 10 minutes
: to finish. In this case, my recommendation would be to alot one-third
: of the normal match time to the duel (15 minutes in the default case),
: unless this would excessively delay the tournament.
Why these ridiculously short times? Why should tournaments be so geared
for quick kill decks? This severely restricts some strategies. I think a
three round match should have a max time closer to 90 minutes than 45.
Anyone else agree?
Rich
Jeff Coon
>In article <37l3cj$2...@news.delphi.com> jhtu...@news.delphi.com (JHTU...@DELPHI.COM) writes:
>>
>> Tom, I thought that the only reason that a card is restricted is
>>because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
>>out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
>>pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
>>forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
>>than a forcefield. I often play a creatureless deck; as far as I can
>>tell, most tournement players do the same thing. So why worry about it?
>
>Well.. if Tom won't.. I'll say it.
>The Maze of Ith is more powerful than a forcefield.
>Reasons: (this assumes the "new" writing forcefield 3mana, tap to use.
> The forcefield makes you take 1 damage from any creature of your
>choice for 3 mana...
> The maze makes you take NO damage from one creature of your choice
>for NO mana.
>PLUS the maze has the additionaly power to allow you to withdraw one of your
>attacking creatures ala the Ebony Horse (also no mana )
>
You forget. The Maze of Ith also has a little phrase that says "Untap
target attacking creature". The creature that you're stopping may still
be available for defensive purposes. With the Forcefield, this is not
the case. And what about partial failure?
Creatures that don't tap when attacking are not affected by the Maze
of Ith. Try playing a deck of Serras, Zephyr Falcons, Yotian Soldiers,
Clones, etc., and see how well the Maze of Ith does. Not as well as the
Forcefield would do. And what about the Singing Tree? It's worse than
the Maze of Ith...
Jeff
co...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu
Joseph William Dixon
: :-> In rec.games.deckmaster, aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) writes:
: :It was specifically engineered to not be restricted, actually. The Maze
: :of Ith is basically there for reasons of popular demand.
: Lovely precedent.
I agree - restricting the Maze was a bad idea... It's not that
powerful, except against decks which are creature-poor... [my decks tend
to be creature-heavy :] The Maze is almost useless against a
weenie-horde...
: Ok, everyone in unison now: RESTRICT THE HEALING SALVE!!!!
Tom, *please* don't start that again!!!!!! :)
--
[Gumby]
Michael K Patterson
>In article <mikep.7...@pv026c.vincent.iastate.edu>, mi...@iastate.edu (Michael K Patterson) writes:
>>
>> Folks, look, you guys are attacking all the wrong cards. Restrict jump now!
>> It's confusing! People abuse it! (Ever seen someoen fork a jump? or regrow
>> one? *shudder*)
>RESTRICT JUMP!?! and ruin my Skeetshoot deck. Flight works quite well but I
>really don't get the same feeling as yelling "PULL" when I cast the jump on my
>opponents creatures. Go restrict something abusive like Grey Ogres or Hurloon
>Minotaurs...
SEE??!?!? SEE!?!?!? The man made a deck around it! Restrict! Restrict!
Wait... Grey Ogres? Hmm. Forget jump... BAN THE OGRES! All the beginning
players I know swarm me with ogres!
Ok, ok.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael "Dirk The Daring" Patterson mi...@iastate.edu
HTTP: //www.public.iastate.edu/~mikep/homepage.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ian s fay
: Ok, everyone in unison now: RESTRICT THE HEALING SALVE!!!!
: --tom
: --
: "You need to go and find someone to teach you the rudiments of
: irrational
: discourse." --Larry Wall
Why? It's not that big a deal, say like Avoid Fate, or Simulacrum. One
Tom Wylie
> Tom, I thought that the only reason that a card is restricted is
>because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
>out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
>pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
>forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
Whether the Maze is more powerful than the Abyss or Forcefield is irrelevant.
The point is the Maze was unduly dominating play, since everyone was feeling
compelled to have four (no matter what kind of deck they had), and/or to
build a deck designed to defeat it. If The Abyss or Forcefield ever reached
this kind of dominance, they would likely be restricted as well. But at
least around here, The Abyss is only used in specialized decks, typically
the creatureless ones; it is not a "must have four" or "must deal with it"
card. Similarly, Forcefield is used little if at all. It may well be that
Forcefield is more powerful than the Maze, but since it isn't overwhelming
deck construction like the Maze was, it is not restricted.
Tom Wylie
>Well hey, Blood Moon isn't restricted any more. Isn't this a change as
>well? Or have I just been playing in local tournaments where Blood Moon
>was restricted.
Lots of unofficial tournaments restricted Blood Moon (and will likely
continue to do so), but it was never restricted in the Convocation rules.
Michael K Patterson
>Tom Christiansen (tch...@mox.perl.com) wrote:
>: Ok, everyone in unison now: RESTRICT THE HEALING SALVE!!!!
>Why? It's not that big a deal, say like Avoid Fate, or Simulacrum. One
>of White's only powers is healing and protection. Give White a chance.
Folks, look, you guys are attacking all the wrong cards. Restrict jump now!
It's confusing! People abuse it! (Ever seen someoen fork a jump? or regrow
one? *shudder*)
Paul Brinkley
Still won't work. For one thing, many deck strategies, such as
land-destruction, or permission/denial, or any position deck
rely on protecting oneself long enough to be able to inflict
damage safely.
Secondly, I've seen people around here build decks whose turns
can last over 45 minutes, even with them continually casting
spells. (Granted, however; this is often the last turn of the
game.)
I simply don't like the time limit rule, though I am thankful
that we have advance warning. The big thing is, there are
decks that win in a time limit, and those which win given a
reasonable amount of time, and the two are often not the same.
I don't want to build a well-done deck just to lose to a lucky
Lightning Bolt from a scrub who managed to get a "bye" in the
tournament by playing other scrubs.
Paul Brinkley
brin...@cs.utexas.edu
Vincent Saldell
>OK, so I oversimplified :) Maze of Ith was restricted because it was
>unduly dominating play... People were feeling compelled to have four
>of them in their decks just to be competitive, and therefore to design
>decks built around getting rid of Maze of Ith. Therefore, it was restricted.
>If Healing Salve ever reached this level of domination, it would be
>restricted too, but somehow I don't see that happening...
>Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
>aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Why is not Blood Moon restricted? 4 Blood Moons allowed and only
4 Disenchants allowed to remove it, it is very unlikely a Blood
Moon will not be out most of the time, and since it affects dual
lands too, its impossible to play a 3-colour deck since those
require 12 dual lands. The low cost 2R and you have about 34%
chance of getting one in the initial 8 cards, so it is not very
unlikely it will hit the game in about turn 3-4 if there is a
need for it. Ok, so you can disenchant/BEB/Tranquility it, but
you are only allowed 4 of each of those, and there is no upkeep
cost to make it balanced, and since it makes all nonbasic lands
produce red mana, it will force 3-colour decks to include red,
to avoid getting out of play when a Blood Moon hits the board.
Of cource a two-colour deck will only have 4 dual lands and will
therefore no be very suspectible to Blood Moon, but if you wish
to put in a 3rd colour, you rather have to include red.
Legends expansion seemed to encourage 3-colour decks, but now
one card makes those very weak (unless they are including red).
I myself play green/white/blue, and Blood Moon really is not
very fun for me. Actually Blood Moon forces me to only play
white/blue if playing seriously.
Guess I have to put together an all-blue permission deck... (whine)
-Vincent
Tom Wylie
>:It was specifically engineered to not be restricted, actually. The Maze
>:of Ith is basically there for reasons of popular demand.
>Lovely precedent.
OK, so I oversimplified :) Maze of Ith was restricted because it was
Tom Wylie
>I simply don't like the time limit rule, though I am thankful
>that we have advance warning. The big thing is, there are
>decks that win in a time limit, and those which win given a
>reasonable amount of time, and the two are often not the same.
Well, look at the bright side: Judges are not required to use time limits
at all, or to make the limit 45 minutes if a time limit is used. It's simply
a recommended method of keeping the tournament moving along at a reasonable
clip. Judges should feel free to not use time limits, though they should
decide up front whether there will be time limits or not, and stick to that
limit throughout the tournament, or at least until the semi-final round.
As the Convocation rules say, the finals and semi-finals should never be
under a time limit.
Robert Hahn
Okay, I've now been playing long enough to know that the key to winning is
a finely-tuned battle-deck, rather than a stack of goodies. (My most
painful experience was getting a red/white deck full of Disenchants and
Disintegrates from 82 cards to its current level of 57+various CoP and a
couple more cards which go in depending on who I'm playing.)
I'm pretty much traded out in my immediate environment. I need new
sources, and I'm not about to buy more Revised booster packs.
So, if anyone could tell me (email is better, as this newsgroup generates a
few hundred messages daily) where I could find either a specialty store
which might sell individual cards, or other sources (even other players) in
NYC, I would appreciate it very much.
Thanks!
-rsh
--
` Robert S. Hahn ha...@panix.com
--- | "A mountain is a mountain, rsh...@is.nyu.edu
O |- and water is water." (212)966-0744:Phone
|____ - A kong-an of Korean Zen master Sung-chul
Frederick Scott
>Tom Christiansen (tch...@mox.perl.com) wrote:
>: :-> In rec.games.deckmaster, aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) writes:
>: :It was specifically engineered to not be restricted, actually. The Maze
>: :of Ith is basically there for reasons of popular demand.
>
>: Lovely precedent.
>
> I agree - restricting the Maze was a bad idea... It's not that
>powerful, except against decks which are creature-poor... [my decks tend
>to be creature-heavy :] The Maze is almost useless against a
>weenie-horde...
I don't think the problem is so much that the Maze was unbalancing. It
just makes games take too long for tournament purposes.
Fred
JIM TRIFONE
only used on 'Basic' Lands(i.e. Swamp, Plains, Forest, Island,
Mountains) So the Maze would remain unaffected.
Jim
jhtu...@news.delphi.com
>OK, so I oversimplified :) Maze of Ith was restricted because it was
>unduly dominating play... People were feeling compelled to have four
>of them in their decks just to be competitive, and therefore to design
>decks built around getting rid of Maze of Ith. Therefore, it was restricted.
>If Healing Salve ever reached this level of domination, it would be
>restricted too, but somehow I don't see that happening...
Tom, I thought that the only reason that a card is restricted is
because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
do...@netcom.com
: /*
: ** The only change to the deck construction rules was the restriction of
: ** Maze of Ith. The Restricted List is as follows :
: * Ali from Cairo (AN)
: * Ancestral Recall
: * Berserk
: * Black Lotus
: * Brain Geyser
: * Candelabra of Tawnos (AQ)
[stuff beyond "C" deleted]
Well hey, Blood Moon isn't restricted any more. Isn't this a change as
well? Or have I just been playing in local tournaments where Blood Moon
was restricted.
Jeff
Evan Simpson
>Whether the Maze is more powerful than the Abyss or Forcefield is irrelevant.
>The point is the Maze was unduly dominating play, since everyone was feeling
>compelled to have four (no matter what kind of deck they had), and/or to
Tom, I realize that restricting the Maze is a simple and straightforward
answer to its abuse, and that what I am about to mention would probably
be too complicated to really do, but...
Ever since The Dark was released, I've felt that the Maze of Ith should
have been a cheap (0/1 cost) artifact, while Fountain of Youth would have
made a nice land. Everyone I know plays with a little anti-artifact
magic as a matter of course, making the Maze no problem, while any number
of land Fountains wouldn't hurt play at all.
RICHARD KENAN
: Unfortunately most of the anti land cards you mention state they can be
: only used on 'Basic' Lands(i.e. Swamp, Plains, Forest, Island,
: Mountains) So the Maze would remain unaffected.
Since you decided not to quote the article you replied to,
I cannot say whether any of those cards in question actually
*DO* only work on basic lands, but I doubt it. Many of them
can only *CREATE* basic lands, but they work on any land at
all. If you can name a land neutralizing card that doesnt
work on non-basic lands, please do. The only one I can think
of is Conversion, and that still works on non-basic mountains
(in other land, part-red multi-lands), so even that's not much
of a problem. Everything else works fine. Name a card, but be
sure to read it first, and I'll admit that I'm wrong if I actually
am.
Just me.
--
Richard Kenan
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk
Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu
Rich Shipley
: rshi...@access3.digex.net (Rich Shipley) writes:
: >Why these ridiculously short times? Why should tournaments be so geared
: >three round match should have a max time closer to 90 minutes than 45.
: I think you are misunderstanding slightly. The DC demands a _minimum_
: of 45 minutes be available for each match (2 of 3). Allotting
I realize that, but the sanctioned tournaments in my area have been using
short time limits that I've been lobbying against. This doesn't help my
position much. B-)
: It is certainly true that timelimits put some strategies at a
: disadvantage, especially if the match goes to a third game. To
: some degree, that is a necessary concession if you want events that
: finish in a single evening.
The other weird thing about the tournaments here is that they start
around noon with the rest of the day to finish, and alot of time is spent
waiting around.
Rich
ROBERT MCDONNELL
>
> It's confusing! People abuse it! (Ever seen someoen fork a jump? or regrow
> one? *shudder*)
RESTRICT JUMP!?! and ruin my Skeetshoot deck. Flight works quite well but I
really don't get the same feeling as yelling "PULL" when I cast the jump on my
opponents creatures. Go restrict something abusive like Grey Ogres or Hurloon
Minotaurs...
RM
Joseph William Dixon
>because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
>out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
>pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
>forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
>than a forcefield. I often play a creatureless deck; as far as I can
>tell, most tournement players do the same thing. So why worry about it?
I see several reasons why the Maze need not be restricted...
Stone Rain, Fissure, Blood Moon, Phantasmal Terrain, Gaea's Liege, Evil
Presence, Armageddon, Blight, Stripmine, Sinkhole, Ice Storm, Chaos Orb
and probably several others that I'm unaware of...
And even 4 Mazes won't make much of a dent in a weenie horde... [unless
the Mazes are supported by a contingent of Ley Druids. *shudder*]
--
[Gumby]
Chad A. Cooper
: You guys are kidding, right? "(The Maze of Ith) is not that powerful. . ."
: Let's think about that, shall we? Do you mean it's not as powerful as,
: say, a zero casting cost artifact that provides one mana of a certain
: color? Now that's POWERFUL! Please excuse my sarcasm, but the point
: is not how powerful the Maze is, but how unbalancing. This card
: predominates in tourney decks in my area right now, and it's forcing
: people to adopt one of three themes to their decks: Land Destruction
: (just like sixties clothing styles---they're coming back), Weenie Horde
: (somewhat effective, but not very if the Maze user has anything decent
: to his deck besides the Mazes), and Zap decks (VERY creature poor, and
: very effective against Maze users, as the Maze slows down their deck,
: while the Zap deck is as fast as ever).
: Now don't get the idea that I dislike the Maze of Ith; actually I like the
: card. I just think that it tends to dominate play. It requires no
: central theme to be used effectively (just pop four in whatever deck you
: have and go), and it slows down your opponents deck just as much as it
: does yours (unless he plays a Zap deck, see above, but in that case he'll
: definitely have his four Mazes also). In fact, probably the biggest
: problem (as far as tourney play) is how much four Mazes of Ith can slow
: down the matches. There are far more reasons to restrict the Maze than
: just "popular opinion."
: Mark
: "Real Men Play Black"
: hav...@ecst.csuchico.edu
o.k., by that argument, why isn't black vise restricted. In most
tourny's I've played in, everyone has 4 of them. Like the maze, it takes
no thought to use them. Just pop 4 in your deck and it's instantly much
more effective. Furthermore, it does damage where the maze is defensive
only. I still don't see what the problem is.
Chad Cooper
Tom Wylie
>I have heard of a tournament rule regarding artifacts. Specifically, no
>more than four artifacts total were allowed in the deck. I have not
>found this rule in the above document.
>Is this not a convocation rule? Is it common to other tournaments?
This was used in a lot of unofficial tournaments up until the release
of Antiquities, when the rule seemed to fall out of favor. As far as I know
it was never part of the Convocation rules, however.
Tom Wylie
>Why is not Blood Moon restricted? 4 Blood Moons allowed and only
>4 Disenchants allowed to remove it, it is very unlikely a Blood
As far as I know, Blood Moon is not coming close to Maze of Ith
in terms of dominating play. It may be causing people to rethink
certain deck concepts (which was the point), but it's not dominating
actual play. If it got to the point where everyone felt they had to
have four in their decks, then it might be restricted, but at least
around here, things have not gotten to that point.
Also, there are lots of ways to get round Blood Moon: Tranquility,
Nevinyrall's Disk, Blue Elemental Blast, Boomerang/counter if nothing
else, and so on.
>lands too, its impossible to play a 3-colour deck since those
>require 12 dual lands...
Every expansion is going to have cards which will cause people to
rethink certain deck concepts; Psychic Purge caused people to rethink
card denial decks, for example. The Dark basically forced a rethink
of two types of decks: card retrieval decks, and heavy multiland decks.
If Blood Moon is causing a stir among the heavy multiland users...
Good. It's nice to kick people out of their ruts every now and again
(or at least make them a little nervous about staying in that rut).
Casey Grimm
>Magic: the Gathering official tournament rules
>Includes Magic: the Gathering, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, The
Dark
>10/10/94 Version
I have heard of a tournament rule regarding artifacts. Specifically, no
more than four artifacts total were allowed in the deck. I have not
found this rule in the above document.
Is this not a convocation rule? Is it common to other tournaments?
-c.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Grimm, alias Lt. "Redfang" Cor'aH
Chief Science Officer: USS Reliant, NCC-1864
Barney must die. Dissent is intolerable.
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
> Why is not Blood Moon restricted?
Because it hoses big-money players (i.e., those who own 4 of every
multiland). It also doesn't slow down a game...in fact, it speeds
it up quite a bit. No pondering over whether to cast a Serra
Angel or Senguir Vampire. All those "All Multiland" decks will
be wrecked. I think it's the best card they've put out in a
long time.
> 4 Blood Moons allowed and only 4 Disenchants allowed to remove it,
Plus 4 Tranquility. Or you play Presence of the Master first (how
many Disenchants do you think HE has?).
> its impossible to play a 3-colour deck since those
> require 12 dual lands.
Stop whining. Three-color decks can be powered very well with
basic lands and a few Prisms.
BTW, 4 Celestial Prisms in your deck will effectively nullify
Blood Moon's power over your multilands.
> it will force 3-colour decks to include red,
Every three color deck I've ever seen (even before Blood Moon)
had Red in it. What has changed?
-- Bill
David Bedno
>
>Why is not Blood Moon restricted? 4 Blood Moons allowed and only
>4 Disenchants allowed to remove it, it is very unlikely a Blood
>Moon will not be out most of the time, and since it affects dual
>lands too, its impossible to play a 3-colour deck since those
>require 12 dual lands. The low cost 2R and you have about 34%
>chance of getting one in the initial 8 cards, so it is not very
>unlikely it will hit the game in about turn 3-4 if there is a
>need for it. Ok, so you can disenchant/BEB/Tranquility it, but
>you are only allowed 4 of each of those, and there is no upkeep
>cost to make it balanced, and since it makes all nonbasic lands
>produce red mana, it will force 3-colour decks to include red,
>to avoid getting out of play when a Blood Moon hits the board.
>Of cource a two-colour deck will only have 4 dual lands and will
>therefore no be very suspectible to Blood Moon, but if you wish
>to put in a 3rd colour, you rather have to include red.
>Legends expansion seemed to encourage 3-colour decks, but now
>one card makes those very weak (unless they are including red).
>
>I myself play green/white/blue, and Blood Moon really is not
>very fun for me. Actually Blood Moon forces me to only play
>white/blue if playing seriously.
>Guess I have to put together an all-blue permission deck... (whine)
>
>-Vincent
(I'm just going to abandon all reason here. If you don't want to read
a vaguely justified rant/flame, just hit ).
Sigh...haven't you been *reading the fucking group*???? This flame war
about Blood Moon (which I think I started, btw...) has only been going
on for the last MONTH or so. And many of us are bored to tears at
listening to you multiland dependant *whiners* complain about ONE CARD.
Yo, Vince. They make these things called "basic lands". They're
immune to Blood Moon. I know, they're probably difficult to find in
your neck of the woods, but I'll be happy to send you some, and to take
some of those oh-so-vulnerable-everyone's-going-to-play-Blood-Moon-and
turn-them-into-mountains multilands off your hands for you. Consider
it a favor. You can owe me.
You can pay me back by NOT WHINING ABOUT HOW BLOOD MOON IS GOING TO
CHANGE EVERYTHING. In local play here in California, it hasn't changed
things much at all. Yes, people complain about Blood Moon, but I'm
one of a handful of people who actually *use* the thing.
How many different people have you been playing that use Blood Moon
decks? How many people do you play? Look at the percentages, and
tell me if it's significant. If it's not (and I don't think it is),
then deal with the fact that your deck can't beat *each* and *every*
deck. If it is, either ask your opponents to use a different deck,
or create a different deck yourself. It's fun, actually.
In short, just sit down, shut up and deal.
Thank you.
David
(Whew. I feel better now. Thanks.)
--
David Bedno drs...@gorn.iuma.com
Disclaimer: I speak for myself, unless you agree with me.
"I didn't enjoy the high, which created a new form of stress, but the supply
of gerbils could always be increased." -Jeff Nicholson,"Through the Habitrails"
Skibo
If the concept was to make people rethink the rainbow multiland concept than it worked ... If the concept was to force people to rethink rainbow money decks it failed. Black Lotus, and all of the moxes, which were restricted from tournement play and removed from print because they were unbalancing remain completly unaffected.
(this is not a whine ... this is a fact ... sit down and deal with it)
(This is not whining ... this is a fact ... to quote some of you out there "sit down and deal with it" ... btw I own three multilands ... I just think the card is too easy to play)
--
________________________________________________________________________________|Dan Skibo | Damn the Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead ||University of Chicago | Adm. Farragut, Battle of Mobile Bay, 1864 |---------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Il Oh
hav...@ecst.csuchico.edu (Mark A. Havener) wrote:
> definitely have his four Mazes also). In fact, probably the biggest
> problem (as far as tourney play) is how much four Mazes of Ith can slow
> down the matches. There are far more reasons to restrict the Maze than
> just "popular opinion."
Uh... What about Forcefield? The recent net ruling reversed the ruling in
the Duelist and stated that the card stands as it is. That is, it's a
POLY artifact and you pay 1 mana for each attacking creature to lost only
1 life.
Devin Ben-Hur
Skibo <dsk...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>If the concept was to make people rethink the rainbow multiland
concept than it worked ... If the concept was to force people to
rethink rainbow money decks it failed. Black Lotus, and all of the
moxes, which were restricted from tournement play and removed from
print because they were unbalancing remain completly unaffected. >
It's easy to hose moxes. Energy Flux, Titania's Song, ShatterStorm,
Haunting Wind.
Yes, he gets the fast mana in the first turn or two, but when you
lay down that Energy Flux on turn 3 or 4, your opponent is suddenly
mana short as 25-50% of his mana supply becomes useless.
--
Devin Ben-Hur [dra...@qiclab.scn.rain.com]
I've been putting off learning to procrastinate...
Jason
>If the concept was to make people rethink the rainbow multiland concept than it worked ... If the concept was to force people to rethink rainbow money decks it failed. Black Lotus, and all of the moxes, which were restricted from tournement play and removed from print because they were unbalancing remain completly unaffected.
>
>(this is not a whine ... this is a fact ... sit down and deal with it)
>
Haha. Can you say Titania's song??? Xenic Poltergiest??? Both are
EXCELLENT mox killers. Hmmm. Titania's song/bloodmoon deck... Red/green is
a very compatible color combo... Hmmmmm. Of course if you have say 3 of
each, and you arn't up against a rainbow/money deck, you have 6 useless cards
in your deck... More than a rainbow/money deck person will have to put in
to counter it. Oh well.
--
(E-MAIL AU...@FREENET.CARLETON.CA || gru...@gaul.csd.uwo.ca) && I != BNR
Be careful, I confuse easy. || It must be true, I read it on the Internet
Jim Ortlieb
>aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) writes:
>
>>OK, so I oversimplified :) Maze of Ith was restricted because it was
>>unduly dominating play... People were feeling compelled to have four
>>of them in their decks just to be competitive, and therefore to design
>>decks built around getting rid of Maze of Ith. Therefore, it was restricted.
>>If Healing Salve ever reached this level of domination, it would be
>>restricted too, but somehow I don't see that happening...
>
> Tom, I thought that the only reason that a card is restricted is
>because it unbalances game play so severely that four can make a duel
>out to be just another 'who gets a better draw' match. Sure, the Maze is
>pretty bad, but the Abyss is just as bad, if not worse. So is a
>forcefield. You can't honestly tell me that the Maze is more powerful
>than a forcefield.
I can, and I will.
The Maze of Ith is a degenerate card due to it's incredible versatility.
I can use it on anyone's turn.
I can enact it at any point in the battle. (THIS is where the real problem
occurs, in my opinion. After the Raging River takes effect, after a
venomed creature is called a blocker, after instants are played effecting
the battle.... etc.)
I lure my Wretched and attack with it, and yank it out before it receives
any damage from the creatures. But, it still blocked them, so everyone
joins my side.
Same holds true for a basilisk or cockatrice or venomed creature -- it
won't take any damage, but the effects of the battle take place anyway.
This incredible versatility is the thing that bothers me the most about
this card. An Ebony Horse has restrictions on when it can be used. The
Maze of Ith has no such restrictions and thus should itself be restricted.
(Forcing me to play blue to stock 4 psychic venoms in my hand waiting for
all those stupid Mazes is not what Magic is about.)
If there were some enchant creatures and/or instants which would allow
creatures to not tap when attacking, then the Maze might be a little
easier to swallow. Maybe Fallen Empires will add these cards, but probably
not....
I'm not arguing that the Time Walk/Timetwister/Recall/Regrowth combo is any
better (since most people know that with enough Urza lands and an Alladin's
Lamp out, you can take an infinite number of turns). But, we'll run out of
Time Walk cards a lot sooner than we will Mazes of Ith.
Just my $0.02...
Jim
--
***********************************************************************
--- Jim Ortlieb -- aka... Head Junkie of the CrackHouse
or...@midway.uchicago.edu -- Deity of the JunkieFest newbie games
Today you will win big, pick a fight with a four year old...
Christopher Cates
: The Maze of Ith is a degenerate card due to it's incredible versatility.
: I can use it on anyone's turn.
: I can enact it at any point in the battle. (THIS is where the real problem
: occurs, in my opinion. After the Raging River takes effect, after a
: venomed creature is called a blocker, after instants are played effecting
: the battle.... etc.)
: This incredible versatility is the thing that bothers me the most about
: this card. An Ebony Horse has restrictions on when it can be used. The
: Maze of Ith has no such restrictions and thus should itself be restricted.
: If there were some enchant creatures and/or instants which would allow
: creatures to not tap when attacking, then the Maze might be a little
: easier to swallow. Maybe Fallen Empires will add these cards, but probably
: not....
They don't have to because it already exsists. It's called Eternal Warrior
and is an encahntment that costs 1 red mana. Plus Green has the rabid
wombat that doesn't tap, blue has the Zephyr Falcon and white has the
Serra ANgel. Right now, only black is actually screwed completely by the
maze. Another reason not to run single color.
Cheers,
Chris.
c...@wintermute.ucr.edu
: ***********************************************************************
Tom Wylie
sort of have the "best of each color" multiland decks in mind as well.
It wasn't meant to target "money" decks per se, though most of them
are heavily dependent on non-basic lands...
Richard Rapier
[snip long diatribe on why maze of ith should be restricted]
: If there were some enchant creatures and/or instants which would allow
: creatures to not tap when attacking, then the Maze might be a little
: easier to swallow. Maybe Fallen Empires will add these cards, but probably
: not....
How about eternal warrior (does not tap to attack), Instill energy (you
untap when he tries to maze you, thus fizzling maze), Johan (sp) (legend
creature, while he is untapped, none of your creatures tap to attack).
Mind you, the only one of those that I own is several instil energies,
but the others are out there. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if more
come along in other expansions. In addition of course, there are several
creatures that do not tap to attack, and there will probably be more.
[snip]
Richard
Jim Ortlieb
Well, the original argument was about people playing with 4 of them. I
know there are a lot of creatures that don't tap when atacking (I play
with Bartel Runeaxe all the time...), but the Maze just doesn't have any
drawbacks.
Yanking *ANYONE* else's creatures out of battle at *ANY* time should require
multiple cards. Not a permanent, like a land, that doesn't even need to be
cast. (At least something like the City of Brass makes you take one damage
for the mana...)
The Maze of Ith might have been better as an enchantment with a power-up
cost and upkeep of 1 mana or so -- it'd still be a powerful card, but would
certainly cut down on the four-at-a-time stuff.
I'm not gonna go out and trade one of my Forcefields for one, but you can't
really say the rules team didn't screw-up on this one.
Jeff Coon
>In article <37l3cj$2...@news.delphi.com> jhtu...@news.delphi.com (JHTU...@DELPHI.COM) writes:
>>aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) writes:
>>
>If there were some enchant creatures and/or instants which would allow
>creatures to not tap when attacking, then the Maze might be a little
>easier to swallow. Maybe Fallen Empires will add these cards, but probably
>not....
Try Eternal Warrior in Red...
Jeff
co...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu
"The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is at -9.8m/s/s"
Devin Ben-Hur
Jim Ortlieb <or...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <38m2gj$s...@crl4.crl.com> rjra...@crl.com (Richard Rapier) writes:
>>Jim Ortlieb (or...@kimbark.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>>[snip long diatribe on why maze of ith should be restricted]
>
>know there are a lot of creatures that don't tap when atacking (I play
>with Bartel Runeaxe all the time...), but the Maze just doesn't have any
>drawbacks.
>
>Yanking *ANYONE* else's creatures out of battle at *ANY* time should require
>multiple cards. Not a permanent, like a land, that doesn't even need to be
>cast. (At least something like the City of Brass makes you take one damage
>for the mana...)
All this whining about the maze. It's a land. There are dozens of
ways to kill or nuetralize it: stripmine, sinkhole, stone rain, ice
storm, fissure, desert twister, blight, evil presence, phantasmal
terrain, gaie's leige, demonic hordes, cyclopean tomb, blood moon,
armagedon, chaos orb, boomerang, time elemental, icy manipulator,
twiddle, psychic venom, living plains + damage. And several ways to
let your critters around it: serra angel, zepher falcon, yotian
soldier, instill energy, eternal warrior, Johan, saddlebags.
You might note that many of the above cards are pretty useful in
general and not something you put in just to deal with the maze. Oh,
and it looks like every color has a few ways around it too. The card
isn't abusive because there are lots of ways to counter it. It's
still a good thing it was restricted because IT SLOWS GAMES DOWN and
you can't have slow games when you're trying to play 63 matchs in an
afternoon.
James Buster
Jim Ortlieb <or...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>If there were some enchant creatures and/or instants which would allow
>creatures to not tap when attacking, then the Maze might be a little
>easier to swallow.
But there are. Eternal Warrior, a Red Uncommon Legends Enchant Creature,
permits a creature to attack without attacking.
--
James Buster
bit...@netcom.com
SUSSMAN ABEL J
Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster
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From: bit...@netcom.com (James Buster)
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <37jft3$1...@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <37kfco$i...@perv.hal.COM> <37l3cj$2...@news.delphi.com> <1994Oct25....@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 22:52:08 GMT
Lines: 11
I think you mean attack without tapping
-Abel