Why Does it Matter?
Morgan
>
> Matthew Mc Clement <xel...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> :
> : It gets worse. I've seen a level 40 barb warrior walk into the tower in Unrest
> : with the knight and 2 hags up. He solo'd them all by just walking in and hitting
> : auto-attack, and a db and barb also joined in during the fight. He was at maybe
> : 1/4 health at the end of it. He then bandaged up to 50%, and proceeded to hold
> : the tower and the barroom for the next 4 hours.
>
> : And they say warriors are under powered? At 40, 2 hags would cause my druid some
> : worry. With the knight up too I would never be able to just walk in and take the
> : room, much less hold it and the barroom.
>
> Warriors aren't overpowered. Druids are underpowered.
>
> At level 36 fully buffed (skin like steel, greater wolf form, endure
> magic, resist fire, resist cold) a festering hag could still kill me
> on occasion. An enchanter, shaman, necro or magician would utterly
> cream a hag at that level.
No, the situation just plays to the strengths of the Warrior. They
have lots of hits, high resistance to magic and an ability to dish
out tons of damage.
A level 36 Enchanter would be slaughtered by a festering hag unless
she managed to plan the fight very carefully or got very lucky. An
Enchanter who found herself surrounded by the undead knight and two
festering hags would have one viable option: Gate.
This does not mean that Enchanters or Druids are weak. It's just a
very unfavorable situation for either.
--
Morgan
(crossposting all posts to rec.games.computer.everquest)
Alasdair Allan
> Billy Shields wrote:
> > Warriors aren't overpowered. Druids are underpowered.
> >
> > At level 36 fully buffed (skin like steel, greater wolf form, endure
> > magic, resist fire, resist cold) a festering hag could still kill me
> > on occasion. An enchanter, shaman, necro or magician would utterly
> > cream a hag at that level.
>
> No, the situation just plays to the strengths of the Warrior. They
> have lots of hits, high resistance to magic and an ability to dish
> out tons of damage.
I thnk you will find that was Billy's point.
The example for grossly underpowered tanks is that they cannot solo a Giant
at 50 (although most can). The reason for this is that the situation is
ideally suited to a Druid.
Sarcasm, lass, sarcasm.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
NBarnes
> No actually it does mean druids are weak. :-) With 190 wisdom and
> level 45 I can barely take out an SG on a full tank of mana (thats
> DD kiting). A 45 necro can kill *three* before running out of mana
> (and possibly more). I've seen this done. A 45 magician can take
> out one easy. Same with an enchanter. And a shaman.
>
> Now look at the group side of the equation. All of those classes
> are more preferable in groups to a druid. So where does the druid
> stand? Its one of the easiest to level but one of the least
> powerful when it gets there.
>
> Don't tell me high level druids aren't weak because I don't believe
> you.
Eh. There _are_ things that druids can do. A magician or necro (or
an unprepared enchanter) would run screaming from five spectres out
for their blood. I just snare all five, nuke one down, then zone.
Mind, druids aren't all that good, there aren't a lot of things
that I do better, but we're not without out abilities.
And, frankly, after having to do the duel-die-rez thing to get
14 people out of Hate tonight, I am a lot more impressed with gates.
Even in guilds, I don't think that we're given enough credit for
the work we do gating people and whatnot sometimes, but they are a
serious advantage.
NBarnes - Dina Demeteran, 47th circle druid, Sol Ro
Clayton O'Neill
Sorry, but teleporting is a convience, it's not an ability to base an entire
class around. Druids need something to add to groups at higher levels.
Reduce the mana cost on SLN, or give them a Pack Shield Of Thorns, or an
other castable Thorncoat, or an upgrade to Firefist that is other castable.
I don't think druids need to be make "more powerful", they need to be made
more useful in groups at higher levels. Right now druids in large outings
do 3 things:
1) Fill the place of half of a wizzie
2) Fill the place of half of a cleric
3) Cast damage shields on all of the tanks
No, you cannot do 1 and 2 at the same time. By the time that Starfire
finishes casting and your gheal finshes casting, that caster/healer that was
summoned and agroed is already dead. And you simply cannot effectively heal
tanks with the amount of damage that 50+ mobs dish out per round.
Pack wolfform is a nice spell, but the problem is that it's outdoor only,
and it maks everyone look identical, which can be a real problem.
Anyway, I played a druid to 50, tried doing stuff with him for a few months
on the planes and dragon raids, finally gave up and used him to twink a
warrior to 50. I play the warrior almost exclusively now, the druid be
relagated to teleporting guildmates around, camping greenie mobs for my
warrior and powerleveling guildmates. That's about all that level 50 druids
are _good_ at. Everything else they're mediocre at unless you're in a 6
person group in lguk. Personally, I'm sick of the 6 person group in lguk.
Morgan
>
> In alt.games.everquest Clayton O'Neill <use...@oneill.net> wrote:
> :
> : On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:35:06 GMT, NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> : |
> : | And, frankly, after having to do the duel-die-rez thing to get
> : |14 people out of Hate tonight, I am a lot more impressed with gates.
> : |Even in guilds, I don't think that we're given enough credit for
> : |the work we do gating people and whatnot sometimes, but they are a
> : |serious advantage.
>
> : Sorry, but teleporting is a convience, it's not an ability to base an entire
> : class around. Druids need something to add to groups at higher levels.
>
> combat abilities then I'd lose teleport in a heartbeat.
Evacs are a combat ability. Of course you should lose other combat
abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
then perhaps you should play a shaman.
> : I don't think druids need to be make "more powerful", they need to be made
> : more useful in groups at higher levels. Right now druids in large outings
> : do 3 things:
>
> : 1) Fill the place of half of a wizzie
>
> I hope you're referring to gates because theres no other use for a
> wizard.
Seriously, a druid fills the whole place of a wizard. The only time
you would want a wizard in the group is to gate somewhere a druid
can't get you. Think about it. You have evac. Would you rather
add healing and damage shields or DD? Not a tough choice.
> : 2) Fill the place of half of a cleric
>
> The only things clerics can do that druids can't is res. Other than
> that a druid is better in 95% of situations. Planes and dragons are
> the notable exceptions.
Cleric healing is better than druid healing, but a druid makes a
perfectly respectable backup healer. It is nice to have a druid
or shaman as backup healer because they have those other nifty
abilities to add to the group.
> : 3) Cast damage shields on all of the tanks
>
> Which can be done by magicians who have better damage shields and (now)
> the best pet in the game. Figure that one out.
Magicians don't get evac, healing or group gates. Magicians are a
combat class. Druids are a support class, like enchanters. If you
want to hurt things, play a combat class.
A well played druid is an asset to a group. A druid who plays like
a wizard is no better than a enchanter or cleric who does the same.
--
Morgan
Xymarra, High Elf Enchanter on E'Ci
Billy Shields
: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:35:06 GMT, NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
: |
: |> No actually it does mean druids are weak. :-) With 190 wisdom and
: |> level 45 I can barely take out an SG on a full tank of mana (thats
: |> DD kiting). A 45 necro can kill *three* before running out of mana
: |> (and possibly more). I've seen this done. A 45 magician can take
: |> out one easy. Same with an enchanter. And a shaman.
: |>
: |> Now look at the group side of the equation. All of those classes
: |> are more preferable in groups to a druid. So where does the druid
: |> stand? Its one of the easiest to level but one of the least
: |> powerful when it gets there.
: |>
: |> Don't tell me high level druids aren't weak because I don't believe
: |> you.
: |
: | Eh. There _are_ things that druids can do. A magician or necro (or
: |an unprepared enchanter) would run screaming from five spectres out
: |for their blood. I just snare all five, nuke one down, then zone.
: |Mind, druids aren't all that good, there aren't a lot of things
: |that I do better, but we're not without out abilities.
: |14 people out of Hate tonight, I am a lot more impressed with gates.
: |Even in guilds, I don't think that we're given enough credit for
: |the work we do gating people and whatnot sometimes, but they are a
: |serious advantage.
: Sorry, but teleporting is a convience, it's not an ability to base an entire
Agreed. They are a convenience. If having teleports means losing
combat abilities then I'd lose teleport in a heartbeat.
: class around. Druids need something to add to groups at higher levels.
Agreed.
: Reduce the mana cost on SLN,
Lose the damage component of SLN too--regen was far better.
: or give them a Pack Shield Of Thorns, or an
Thats actually a pretty awful idea. Having damage shields on the
wrong people is a good way to get them killed. Why? Well, if you're
a caster/healer who finds him or herself getting hit when you'd
rather not be hit (which is all the time, lets face it) then what
you do is turn autoattack off and just stand there until one of
your tanks rescues you by taunting it off (you won't even have to
ask good tanks to do this; they'll switch targets automatically
and use /assist to make sure they get the right one). If you have
a damage shield on it makes it that much harder to have the monster
taunted off you (because of the added hate).
: other castable Thorncoat, or an upgrade to Firefist that is other castable.
: I don't think druids need to be make "more powerful", they need to be made
: more useful in groups at higher levels. Right now druids in large outings
: do 3 things:
: 1) Fill the place of half of a wizzie
I hope you're referring to gates because theres no other use for a
wizard.
: 2) Fill the place of half of a cleric
The only things clerics can do that druids can't is res. Other than
that a druid is better in 95% of situations. Planes and dragons are
the notable exceptions.
: 3) Cast damage shields on all of the tanks
Which can be done by magicians who have better damage shields and (now)
the best pet in the game. Figure that one out.
: No, you cannot do 1 and 2 at the same time. By the time that Starfire
: finishes casting and your gheal finshes casting, that caster/healer that was
Ok, so you were referring to DDs. That was a mistake. I barely even
memorise them anymore in groups. The only reason I use them is to
burn mana if I have excess. Theres hardly any othe reason to use
them (emergencies being about the only one).
: summoned and agroed is already dead. And you simply cannot effectively heal
: tanks with the amount of damage that 50+ mobs dish out per round.
Thing is once you start talking about the 53+ monsters, *nobody*
can heal tanks fast enough because if the monster stays on the
tank then the tank will die before a cleric can get off SH/CH
anyway.
: Pack wolfform is a nice spell, but the problem is that it's outdoor only,
: and it maks everyone look identical, which can be a real problem.
I do find that a problem. I like how people look different so I
can tell at a glance whos doing what.
: Anyway, I played a druid to 50, tried doing stuff with him for a few months
: on the planes and dragon raids, finally gave up and used him to twink a
: warrior to 50. I play the warrior almost exclusively now, the druid be
Just out of curiosity, where did you powerlevel through the late
teens and 20s? I've done the same thing (decided to use my druid
to powerlevel a new class though in my case its shaman).
: relagated to teleporting guildmates around, camping greenie mobs for my
: warrior and powerleveling guildmates. That's about all that level 50 druids
: are _good_ at. Everything else they're mediocre at unless you're in a 6
: person group in lguk. Personally, I'm sick of the 6 person group in lguk.
Heh, when I first started I got nervous being in a group smaller than
5-6 but then again I had no clue how to play then. Nowadays I like
groups of two (three is OK too).
Billy Shields
:> :
:> : On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:35:06 GMT, NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> : | And, frankly, after having to do the duel-die-rez thing to get
:> : |14 people out of Hate tonight, I am a lot more impressed with gates.
:> : |Even in guilds, I don't think that we're given enough credit for
:> : |the work we do gating people and whatnot sometimes, but they are a
:> : |serious advantage.
:>
:> : Sorry, but teleporting is a convience, it's not an ability to base an entire
:>
:> Agreed. They are a convenience. If having teleports means losing
:> combat abilities then I'd lose teleport in a heartbeat.
: Evacs are a combat ability. Of course you should lose other combat
: abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
: then perhaps you should play a shaman.
Evacs are overrated. You don't use them that often. Particularly at
the high levels you tend to camp or /quit and hope for the best
rather than evac because getting back is next to impossible. As
long as one cleric makes it, its OK.
:> : I don't think druids need to be make "more powerful", they need to be made
:> : more useful in groups at higher levels. Right now druids in large outings
:> : do 3 things:
:>
:> : 1) Fill the place of half of a wizzie
:>
:> I hope you're referring to gates because theres no other use for a
:> wizard.
: Seriously, a druid fills the whole place of a wizard. The only time
Filling the whole place of a wizard is nothing to brag about because
wizards are useless. I believe they call that "damning with faint
praise."
: you would want a wizard in the group is to gate somewhere a druid
: can't get you. Think about it. You have evac. Would you rather
: add healing and damage shields or DD? Not a tough choice.
Thing is you could do without either.
:
:> : 2) Fill the place of half of a cleric
:>
:> The only things clerics can do that druids can't is res. Other than
:> that a druid is better in 95% of situations. Planes and dragons are
:> the notable exceptions.
: Cleric healing is better than druid healing, but a druid makes a
Actually no it isn't. Druid healing is exceeded only (arguably) by
shaman healing. And it has nothing to do with mana efficiency of
heal spells.
Druids and shamans both get chloroplast--far more efficient than
any direct heal spell.
Druids also get pack chloroplast but thats only really efficient
with more than 4 in your group.
Druids get damage shields which mitigate the need for healing by
killing things faster.
Shamans get their speed debuff line which prevent far more damage
than the same amount of mana could ever heal.
Contrary to popular belief, clerics are the worst healers. The
one thing they can do which justifies their existence is res.
: perfectly respectable backup healer. It is nice to have a druid
: or shaman as backup healer because they have those other nifty
: abilities to add to the group.
:> : 3) Cast damage shields on all of the tanks
:>
:> Which can be done by magicians who have better damage shields and (now)
:> the best pet in the game. Figure that one out.
: Magicians don't get evac, healing or group gates. Magicians are a
: combat class. Druids are a support class, like enchanters. If you
: want to hurt things, play a combat class.
Group gates and evac are overrated. Healing is also overrated (who
needs to heal when its only pets that are taking damage?).
In fact that is what I'm doing. I've started a shaman.
: A well played druid is an asset to a group. A druid who plays like
: a wizard is no better than a enchanter or cleric who does the same.
Problem is a well-played druid is dwarfed (in usefulness) by a
well-played warrior, ranger, paladin, shadowknight, rogue, monk,
enchanter, necromancer, shaman or magician.
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Eh. There _are_ things that druids can do. A magician or necro (or
>>an unprepared enchanter) would run screaming from five spectres out
>>for their blood. I just snare all five, nuke one down, then zone.
>
>Bah, where's your sense of adventure? Snare all 5, memorize Lightning
>Strike, and try to nuke them all down at once!
Trust me, won't work.
Spectres will insist on stopping to cast those stupid lifetap spells
they have--which makes them move apart. And trying to get them to
bunch back up is a real pain in the butt.
Try it with multiple hill giants--those guys have a very single minded
mode of attack...chase you until dead. :-)
-- Sang.
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>Sorry, but teleporting is a convience, it's not an ability to base an entire
>class around. Druids need something to add to groups at higher levels.
>Reduce the mana cost on SLN, or give them a Pack Shield Of Thorns,
That latter would not be a good thing.
Having thorns on a caster the tanks are trying to taunt off would be a
very bad thing to have.
>I don't think druids need to be make "more powerful", they need to be made
>more useful in groups at higher levels.
Two things I would like to see for the expansion as far as new spells
are concerned for druids: Harmony that works in doors and/or some
form of debuff--I doubt the latter would be included, but the former
would be really, REALLY nice. :-)
>...Everything else they're mediocre at unless you're in a 6
>person group in lguk. Personally, I'm sick of the 6 person group in lguk.
Try a 6 person group in Kedge.
Our animal line of spells (especially calm animal) would make that
zone a great play ground for druids (of course, it would be nice to
make fishbone earrings a bit more freaking common...)
-- Sang.
NBarnes
> NBarnes <nba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Eh. There _are_ things that druids can do. A magician or necro (or
> >an unprepared enchanter) would run screaming from five spectres out
> >for their blood. I just snare all five, nuke one down, then zone.
> Bah, where's your sense of adventure? Snare all 5, memorize Lightning
> Strike, and try to nuke them all down at once!
At 49th, I plan to try this. The problem is that they tend to
spread out in the process of snaring them, and herding them back
together is more effort than I really want to go to (a chimp could
kite spectres, so I usually am only about 50% there mentally when
I'm doing it).
NBarnes - Dina Demeteran, 48th circle druid, Sol Ro
NBarnes
> Try a 6 person group in Kedge.
> Our animal line of spells (especially calm animal) would make that
> zone a great play ground for druids (of course, it would be nice to
> make fishbone earrings a bit more freaking common...)
I _love_ KK. I feel _useful_ in KK. I cast EB, I can do
_crowd_control_ with my charms against low MR fish. My nukes _stick_
once in a while, since the fish also have low FR. And the XP is good.
NBarnes
> Evacs are a combat ability. Of course you should lose other combat
> abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
> then perhaps you should play a shaman.
Evacs are not all that useful, in my opinion. You don't evac from
a dragon. You don't evac from a plane. You don't evac _at_all_,
because what you _always_ want to do is have a cleric camp and then
rez you all. It's a _lot_ less effort than getting everybody back
together from wherever they gated to and fighting your way back
down to the Efreeti Lord, or back into a plane (you _never_ evac from
a plane. Never, ever, ever).
As tactics evolve, evacs get less and less useful and interesting.
It has been well over three months since I evac'd, and there's been
very little that I have not done in those three months.
> Cleric healing is better than druid healing, but a druid makes a
> perfectly respectable backup healer. It is nice to have a druid
> or shaman as backup healer because they have those other nifty
> abilities to add to the group.
Actually, I spent a lot of time in Hate this week being primary
heal, since we were short healers (we have few high level shamans
in my guild, I was the only druid there most of the time, and
the clerics were spread thin). It was a little dicey sometimes,
but the tanks were all smart enough to back off once they started
getting really nailed.
But it's not really a matter of choosing between a cleric and a
druid, because you _have_ to have a cleric to do the planes, to
rez people after the inevitable deaths and massacres. You do not
need to have a druid. Clerics are otherwise slightly below druids
in overall power and utility, and both are way below the shaman.
George Ruof
It's tough to get them to all die at once. I've done it with 2, but
with 3 I end up with a straggler at the end. I haven't tried more than
that since when I get 3 it's unintentional.
It's amusing for a while and impresses the newbies, but if I am going to
hunt them for any length of time I prefer the mindless singles too. :)
--
George Ruof
gr...@pacificnet.net
hughes
> :> that a druid is better in 95% of situations. Planes and dragons are
> :> the notable exceptions.
Snicker :) If you are going to die you want the cleric if not you want the
druid. You do need a cleric in the planes for resses because attrition and
bad luck will occassionally nab a puller or peon. ( 1 cleric only . and
works best if hes playing a second character and only logs in for raising )
> Problem is a well-played druid is dwarfed (in usefulness) by a
> well-played warrior, ranger, paladin, shadowknight, rogue, monk,
> enchanter, necromancer, shaman or magician.
Actually the first druid has a very high utility in plane raids but extras
dont add that much besides healing and buffs. For instance it is fairly
easy to nab cazic thule with drifting death twice while he is fought. Pack
chloro and pack wolfform the tanks and then heal tanks. Our Dots dont do
near the most dammage but very very few things resist them always and they
stack with everyone elses.
Well played enchanters, necromancers, and shaman do add more to a group
than druids though. Magicians are iffy, in a succesfull attempt their pet
will never die so all they add is dd which isnt much. They might be able to
outdo 1600 dammage with pet and dd but certainly cant keep that extra tank
alive.
An extra warrior type is never useless while an extra druid might be ,
this is something of a problem since on the newer servers the druid
population is obscene, and even on older servers there seems to be far too
many druid twinkies. This is the major point I think . Same class casters
dont stack as well as same class warriors even though a single member of a
caster class is more usefull than a single member of a warrior one.
skein dubh (50 druid)
geilt (35 enchanter)
Morgan
Billy Shields wrote:
>
> In alt.games.everquest Morgan <mor...@misleading.com> wrote:
> : Billy Shields wrote:
> :>
> :> : 1) Fill the place of half of a wizzie
> :>
> :> I hope you're referring to gates because theres no other use for a
> :> wizard.
>
> : Seriously, a druid fills the whole place of a wizard. The only time
>
> Filling the whole place of a wizard is nothing to brag about because
> wizards are useless. I believe they call that "damning with faint
> praise."
> : Cleric healing is better than druid healing, but a druid makes a
>
> Actually no it isn't. Druid healing is exceeded only (arguably) by
> shaman healing. And it has nothing to do with mana efficiency of
> heal spells.
>
> Contrary to popular belief, clerics are the worst healers. The
> one thing they can do which justifies their existence is res.
> : A well played druid is an asset to a group. A druid who plays like
> : a wizard is no better than a enchanter or cleric who does the same.
>
> Problem is a well-played druid is dwarfed (in usefulness) by a
> well-played warrior, ranger, paladin, shadowknight, rogue, monk,
> enchanter, necromancer, shaman or magician.
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
On the one side you say that Druids are useless. On the other you
say that they replace the whole function of a Wizard AND heal better
than a Cleric. Get your story straight and try again.
--
Morgan
Sergey Dashevskiy
says...
> Snicker :) If you are going to die you want the cleric if not you want the
> druid. You do need a cleric in the planes for resses because attrition and
> bad luck will occassionally nab a puller or peon. ( 1 cleric only . and
> works best if hes playing a second character and only logs in for raising )
Not always. Druids had saved my ass many more times just because GH is
so much faster to cast than cleric's big-ass heals. True, the clerics
still have Greater Heal, but most of them don't use it for some reason
when they have better ones.
Besides, it's much more likely that an enchanter will save my ass than a
cleric
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>: Evacs are a combat ability. Of course you should lose other combat
>: abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
>: then perhaps you should play a shaman.
>
>Evacs are overrated. You don't use them that often.
But when you *DO* use them, they are unbelievably important.
>Particularly at
>the high levels you tend to camp or /quit and hope for the best
>rather than evac because getting back is next to impossible.
By this, I assume you mean planes.
Because if you mean places like the ghoul lord room, you better
believe I'm hitting evac rather than /quit.
>As long as one cleric makes it, its OK.
Cleric? What cleric? :-)
>: you would want a wizard in the group is to gate somewhere a druid
>: can't get you. Think about it. You have evac. Would you rather
>: add healing and damage shields or DD? Not a tough choice.
>
>Thing is you could do without either.
Try a nake corpse recover in the lord room at 3AM when there are about
20 people in LGuk.
Damage shield is not something you should dismiss that quickly--it
adds tremendously to the over all effectivness of your tanks.
Furthermore, you're also forgetting that druids have a very nice DoT
at 44 that does over 800+ in just under a min.
>: Magicians don't get evac, healing or group gates. Magicians are a
>: combat class. Druids are a support class, like enchanters. If you
>: want to hurt things, play a combat class.
>
>Group gates and evac are overrated. Healing is also overrated (who
>needs to heal when its only pets that are taking damage?).
I don't know where the heck you are hunting but I can garantee you my
choloro was put to damn good use when we broke the lord room. And
evac, while we didn't use it for it's intended purposes (ie., we were
able to handle all overpulls without problems), was pretty damn
important when we were ready to leave the dungeon (how the hell do you
walk out of the lord room?!?).
It was also nice to know that if there was a swarm of froggies, we had
two druid both hitting evac at the same time (the assumption being one
of the two will get evac off).
>In fact that is what I'm doing. I've started a shaman.
Shamans are very powerful and are always wanted in my group, but don't
for a moment assume that a druid is somehow useless to the group.
Hell, we (the druids) were primarily responsible for the dots and DDs
since the Shaman didn't have enough mana to cast togor, dots, buffs,
and DD before the rooms started popping again.
And yes, there are times when you NEED to have DDs. You don't have
the luxury of togoring a guk wizard and meleeing it for a min and
half. Relying on stun/mez to stick to a 47th level wizard who can
blast you for 600+ per cast is not my idea of a smart thing to be
doing--especially since even buffed up, our enchanter had *maybe*
1300hps. And forget about tanks bashing/stunning a guk wizard, when
was the last time a 45+ tank managed to interrupt a 47th level NPC
wizard? I can't recall a single incident where a tank managed to
interrupt an NPC wizard past level 40.
>: A well played druid is an asset to a group. A druid who plays like
>: a wizard is no better than a enchanter or cleric who does the same.
>
>Problem is a well-played druid is dwarfed (in usefulness) by a
>well-played warrior, ranger, paladin, shadowknight, rogue, monk,
>enchanter, necromancer, shaman or magician.
Perhaps in your group setting, but I seem to have no problems in
making my presence felt in my group. And this was in LGuk where a
druid's weak points are most evident. In places like Kedge, I would
expect my presence to be even more critical to the overall group
success.
-- Sang.
Alasdair Allan
> > well-played warrior, ranger, paladin, shadowknight, rogue, monk,
> > enchanter, necromancer, shaman or magician.
>
>
> On the one side you say that Druids are useless. On the other you
> say that they replace the whole function of a Wizard AND heal better
> than a Cleric. Get your story straight and try again.
He's emphasising his point more than being contradictory. Yes Druids have
uses but overall they just don't cut it at high levels (although they are
my preferred primary healer over a Cleric - but then I am a Shaman so
healing is pretty irrelevant).
Remember Wizards and Clerics are uber-useless. Wizards are the definition
of a pitiful, crap class in Everquest and in a good group, outside Dragon
runs and the Planes a Cleric has *no* use and slows a group's progress.
He's saying a quick death is better than being tortured to death.
Clayton O'Neill
|> combat abilities then I'd lose teleport in a heartbeat.
|
|abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
|then perhaps you should play a shaman.
Not in l46+ event type of situations. Planes, dragons etc. And for a lot
of people, this is a lot of their playtime. With my warrior I always have
to bum food and water off of people because most of the time I'm in a plane,
or near a dragon, and don't have much time to stop in in Rivervale and buy
them.
|Seriously, a druid fills the whole place of a wizard. The only time
|you would want a wizard in the group is to gate somewhere a druid
|can't get you. Think about it. You have evac. Would you rather
|add healing and damage shields or DD? Not a tough choice.
Not at higher levels, although wizzies are somewhat useless here also.
Wizzies get stuns and DDs that do considerably more damage/sec and are more
mana efficent. Druid heals are useless, and so are the buffs when you have
clerics and shaman around. I suppose it depends on the situation, but both
are useless in a lot of places.
|> : 2) Fill the place of half of a cleric
|>
|> The only things clerics can do that druids can't is res. Other than
|> that a druid is better in 95% of situations. Planes and dragons are
|> the notable exceptions.
|
|Cleric healing is better than druid healing, but a druid makes a
|perfectly respectable backup healer. It is nice to have a druid
|or shaman as backup healer because they have those other nifty
|abilities to add to the group.
Perhaps in lower guk, I'm talking about doing level 46+ stuff though.
|> : 3) Cast damage shields on all of the tanks
|>
|> Which can be done by magicians who have better damage shields and (now)
|> the best pet in the game. Figure that one out.
|
|Magicians don't get evac, healing or group gates. Magicians are a
|combat class. Druids are a support class, like enchanters. If you
|want to hurt things, play a combat class.
|A well played druid is an asset to a group. A druid who plays like
|a wizard is no better than a enchanter or cleric who does the same.
What are druids supposed to do then? Can't heal, can't buff, can't evac, I
guess damage shield, except that's fairly useless when you have 10+ tanks
and shaman/enchanters debuffing and wizzies, enchanters and clerics
stunning.
Let me point out, I'm talking about doing level 46+ stuff, which with the
expansion is going to become more and more of an issue. What role or niche
do druids fit at this point? Personally, I've shelved mine, I got tired of
sitting around FM with nothing to do.
Matthew Mc Clement
You've actually got a damned valid point there. G Heal is a shorter cast time,
and by level 50 you've had it for so long, in comparison to your channeling
skill, its easy to channel. Yet clerics still insist on only mem'ing Sup H and
CH, when if something ever agro's on you, you have to go through all hell and
back to channel that CH. And CH takes a long assed time to cast.
But then most clerics that mem only their big heals would have a hard time
switching back to G Heal, simply because the timing of your heals is so much
more crucial.
Matt
Clayton O'Neill
|In alt.games.everquest Clayton O'Neill <use...@oneill.net> wrote:
|Thats actually a pretty awful idea. Having damage shields on the
|wrong people is a good way to get them killed. Why? Well, if you're
|a caster/healer who finds him or herself getting hit when you'd
|rather not be hit (which is all the time, lets face it) then what
|you do is turn autoattack off and just stand there until one of
|your tanks rescues you by taunting it off (you won't even have to
|ask good tanks to do this; they'll switch targets automatically
|and use /assist to make sure they get the right one). If you have
|a damage shield on it makes it that much harder to have the monster
|taunted off you (because of the added hate).
Actually, DS damage doesn't get credited to anyone, cast one on a level 1
character and they'll be cursing you shortly. It'll look like this:
Player attacks a giant rat, but misses
giant rat says 'hit by non-melee for 24 points of damage'
giant rat attacks Player for one point of damage
you have killed a giant rat
<No xp message here>
|: 2) Fill the place of half of a cleric
|
|The only things clerics can do that druids can't is res. Other than
|that a druid is better in 95% of situations. Planes and dragons are
|the notable exceptions.
Druids cannot effectively heal level 50 fully buffed tanks that are fighting
level 48+ mobs. Try even doing the Efreeti in solb, but if you really want
to be woken up on this one, try being the primary healer in a group full of
tanks in fear. And I don't mean one of those pickup groups with 45+ people.
We regularly do fear with 3 clerics across 18 people, you simply cannot do
that with gheal, you need sheal for the mana efficency.
|: summoned and agroed is already dead. And you simply cannot effectively heal
|: tanks with the amount of damage that 50+ mobs dish out per round.
|
|Thing is once you start talking about the 53+ monsters, *nobody*
|can heal tanks fast enough because if the monster stays on the
|tank then the tank will die before a cleric can get off SH/CH
|anyway.
Actually, we have no problems with clerics doing it. However, you cannot do
this with gheal. Try handling a temple overpull in fear, or the Gorgolosk
in sky with druids doing primary healing for tanks. You might can, but
you'll need more melee, twice as many druids and you'll still have lots of
deaths.
|: Anyway, I played a druid to 50, tried doing stuff with him for a few months
|: on the planes and dragon raids, finally gave up and used him to twink a
|: warrior to 50. I play the warrior almost exclusively now, the druid be
|
|Just out of curiosity, where did you powerlevel through the late
|teens and 20s? I've done the same thing (decided to use my druid
|to powerlevel a new class though in my case its shaman).
Unrest and Sola. Unrest is nice because you can Pack Wolf most race/class
combinations and they won't be KOS. Whatever you do, don't get runners or
you'll definitely be dead, probably you and the twink. FWIW, I'm probably
going to switch to upper guk for this now, it's considerably less crowded.
|Heh, when I first started I got nervous being in a group smaller than
|5-6 but then again I had no clue how to play then. Nowadays I like
|groups of two (three is OK too).
It's a personal preference thing. I don't like 2 person things in person
either, I always feel I have to hold up my end of the conversation, whereas
with 3+ people I feel I can relax a bit more. Anyway, our guild is pretty
much always doing planes or dragons or something during prime time, so it's
not really an issue. The primary limiting factor with whether or not we can
do something at a given time is a) how many clerics are available and b) Are
both of the enchanters available? We almost always have plenty of tanks
wanting to do stuff.
Matthew Mc Clement
>
> On 17 Feb 2000 05:43:28 GMT, Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >: Evacs are a combat ability. Of course you should lose other combat
> >: abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
> >: then perhaps you should play a shaman.
> >
>
> But when you *DO* use them, they are unbelievably important.
That still doesn't make them the most defining thing of a class. I've used evac
*once* since level 29, and have never bothered since. Thats 11 levels ago. Hell,
I don't even keep Gate mem'd as it creates an artificial crutch that you
shouldn't be relying on.
The same applies with xp resses. I see guildies and friends spend 30 min or more
trying to get an xp res after a bad pull. I'm sorry, but at 20-50pp for an xp
res I would rather run out and get the xp back by killing stuff. At most its an
hours worth of solo'ing, and thats doing giants, and ignoring the fact that I
might easily make 200pp from that as a bonus. I think I've been ressed twice in
my entire EQ life, and both times I had this nagging feeling in my mind that
side effects of having any type of res was just not worth it.
*snip rest of stuff I generally agree with*
Matt
Clayton O'Neill
|In article <01bf7976$22efb5a0$40a1d6d1@hughes>, hugh...@bellsouth.net
|says...
|> Snicker :) If you are going to die you want the cleric if not you want the
|> druid. You do need a cleric in the planes for resses because attrition and
|> bad luck will occassionally nab a puller or peon. ( 1 cleric only . and
|> works best if hes playing a second character and only logs in for raising )
|
|Not always. Druids had saved my ass many more times just because GH is
|so much faster to cast than cleric's big-ass heals. True, the clerics
|still have Greater Heal, but most of them don't use it for some reason
|when they have better ones.
|Besides, it's much more likely that an enchanter will save my ass than a
|cleric
That's a poorly played cleric or a bad judgement call, not a class balance
issue.
Clayton O'Neill
|On 16 Feb 2000 21:16:22 GMT, use...@oneill.net (Clayton O'Neill) wrote:
|>Sorry, but teleporting is a convience, it's not an ability to base an entire
|>class around. Druids need something to add to groups at higher levels.
|>Reduce the mana cost on SLN, or give them a Pack Shield Of Thorns,
|
|That latter would not be a good thing.
|Having thorns on a caster the tanks are trying to taunt off would be a
|very bad thing to have.
See my previous post, DS damage doesn't get credited to anyone.
|>I don't think druids need to be make "more powerful", they need to be made
|>more useful in groups at higher levels.
|
|Two things I would like to see for the expansion as far as new spells
|are concerned for druids: Harmony that works in doors and/or some
|form of debuff--I doubt the latter would be included, but the former
|would be really, REALLY nice. :-)
Harmony indoors would be grossly overpowered and I suspect if they could
take the spell back out of the game without pissing off every ranger and
druid in existance, they would. You'll note that it's turned off in Plane
of Sky.
|>...Everything else they're mediocre at unless you're in a 6
|>person group in lguk. Personally, I'm sick of the 6 person group in lguk.
|
|Try a 6 person group in Kedge.
|Our animal line of spells (especially calm animal) would make that
|zone a great play ground for druids (of course, it would be nice to
|make fishbone earrings a bit more freaking common...)
Kedge is boring also, 6 person groups aren't much fun unless you're actually
doing something hard, most everything in kedge is easy with 6 except for
Phingel, and we've done him with 8.
Matthew Mc Clement
>
> On 17 Feb 2000 00:22:54 GMT, Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> |In alt.games.everquest Clayton O'Neill <use...@oneill.net> wrote:
> |Thats actually a pretty awful idea. Having damage shields on the
> |wrong people is a good way to get them killed. Why? Well, if you're
> |a caster/healer who finds him or herself getting hit when you'd
> |rather not be hit (which is all the time, lets face it) then what
> |you do is turn autoattack off and just stand there until one of
> |your tanks rescues you by taunting it off (you won't even have to
> |ask good tanks to do this; they'll switch targets automatically
> |and use /assist to make sure they get the right one). If you have
> |a damage shield on it makes it that much harder to have the monster
> |taunted off you (because of the added hate).
>
> character and they'll be cursing you shortly. It'll look like this:
>
> Player attacks a giant rat, but misses
> giant rat says 'hit by non-melee for 24 points of damage'
> giant rat attacks Player for one point of damage
> you have killed a giant rat
> <No xp message here>
on the shit list of the mob, and every time you hurt it with a DS, it adds to
that shit list. I know from times when I over heal/over DD a mob, if i have my
personal DS up, the tanks have a much ahrder time taunting the mob back, than
when I just cancel it when a mob agro's on me.
And unless its been changed very recently, the player just has to put 1 melee
round into the mob and they will still get xp. Even if they miss, and don't do
any damage.
Matt
Azmogeddon
<mor...@misleading.com> writes
>> Warriors aren't overpowered. Druids are underpowered.
>>
--
Azmogeddon
Morgan
Please get your attributions right. That was Billy, not me. ;)
--
Morgan
Alasdair Allan
> |> combat abilities then I'd lose teleport in a heartbeat.
> |
> |abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
> |then perhaps you should play a shaman.
>
> of people, this is a lot of their playtime. With my warrior I always have
> to bum food and water off of people because most of the time I'm in a
plane,
> or near a dragon, and don't have much time to stop in in Rivervale and buy
> them.
Lets be careful here. 90% of players will *never* see a Plane off a
screenshot and of those 10% that do visit a Plane, very few will play there
regularly.
Azmogeddon
Clayton O'Neill
|Clayton O'Neill <use...@oneill.net> wrote
|> |Billy Shields wrote:
|> |> combat abilities then I'd lose teleport in a heartbeat.
|> |
|> |abilities to get teleports. If you didn't want to make that tradeoff,
|> |then perhaps you should play a shaman.
|>
|> Not in l46+ event type of situations. Planes, dragons etc. And for a lot
|> of people, this is a lot of their playtime. With my warrior I always have
|> to bum food and water off of people because most of the time I'm in a
|plane,
|> or near a dragon, and don't have much time to stop in in Rivervale and buy
|> them.
|
|Lets be careful here. 90% of players will *never* see a Plane off a
|screenshot and of those 10% that do visit a Plane, very few will play there
|regularly.
That doesn't mean the game can't be balanced for that level of play.
Otherwise, why do we have 3 zones dedicated to it when we could have more
solb's and lguk's?
I mean honestly, what does everyone else do when they hit 50? Sit around
and farm stuff? I'd rather do something that challenging.