Xiang Qi Is Not The Elephant Game
LE...@alm.admin.usfca.edu
but I think this is incorrect. "The Elephant Game" can't
possibly be the correct translation.
If you were going to name this game after one of the pieces,
which piece would you choose? Probably you'd call it
"The General Game" or maybe "The Chariot Game" or even
"The Cannon Game." Why would you choose one of those?
Because they are the strongest & most important pieces in
the game. However, it is unlikely that any rational person
would call this game "The Pawn Game" or "The Guard Game" or
"The Elephant Game" because those are the weakest pieces.
Calling Chinese Chess "The Elephant Game" is only one step
removed from calling it "The Guard Game," which we can all
agree would be ridiculous. Why would anyone name this game
(or any other game) after one of the weakest pieces?
Also, the "elephant" character applies only to the two black
pieces, not to the red "elephants." The red xiang has a
different meaning. So we are supposed to believe this game
is named in honor of two weak black pieces.
It would make more sense to translate "Xiang" not as
"elephant" but as its other meanings, "resemble," "imitate,"
"appearance," and "image." As in resembling or symbolic of
a war battle or warriors. I think this interpretation has the more
logical claim.
I found corroboration for this opinion when recently I got
ahold of an old article in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic
Society (Volume 17, 1885) which includes an article by
F. W. Holt called, "Notes on the Chinese Game of Chess."
Holt notes the absurdity of calling Xiang Qi "the elephant
game" and relates the story that some Chinese in ancient times
found the bones of a dead elephant and tried to imagine
how it would look when alive. So the word "xiang" came to mean
"imagination" or "ideas" or resemblances," etc. In this sense,
both the red and black "xiang" characters have a similar meaning
(the red xiang translates as "looks" and "appearance").
The prevailing belief seems to be that Chinese chess is
descended from Chaturanga, although I think the word "Xiang"
and what it means is a separate issue. I was hoping they would
find some Chinese chess pieces among the ancient terra-cotta warriors
unearthed at Xian, but apparently they're not there.
Stephen Leary
Stephen Leary
In a previous article, nja...@access3.digex.net (Nick Jacobs) says:
>LE...@ALM.ADMIN.USFCA.EDU writes:
>
>>The prevailing belief seems to be that Chinese chess is
>>descended from Chaturanga, although I think the word "Xiang"
>>and what it means is a separate issue. I was hoping they would
>>find some Chinese chess pieces among the ancient terra-cotta warriors
>>unearthed at Xian, but apparently they're not there.
>
>>Stephen Leary
>
>Dr Joseph Needham has established that all chess-like games
>originated from a Chinese game. Earlier researchers did
>show that XiangQi derives from shatranj, (or Chaturanga),
>the Indian game - but Needham found that shatranj is
>derived from an even earlier Chinese game. There are
>references to a chess-like game by Mencius; I'm not
>sure of the date of Mencius' writings but think it's
>4th century BC (maybe someone can correct this).
>
>Nick
I'm not sure that Needham's views are widely accepted, as
some commentators have pointed out a few holes in his
theory. But it's an interesting theory that Chinese chess
originated from divination ceremonies. The problem with
the Mencius quote is that no one seems to know what game
he is referring to, and if it has any relation at all to
what we know as Chinese chess. He didn't use the phrase
"xiangqi." Certainly there was some type of game-playing
going on in those early years, but whether it was some
kind of "chess" or something else entirely seems to
be in debate. There appears to be no documentary
or archeological evidence for Chinese chess as we know
it before 800 AD. That's two centuries after chess's
documented appearance in India and Persia.
I'll try to work up an article about the various theories
regarding the history of Chinese chess.
Stephen Leary
Nick Jacobs
>The prevailing belief seems to be that Chinese chess is
>descended from Chaturanga, although I think the word "Xiang"
>and what it means is a separate issue. I was hoping they would
>find some Chinese chess pieces among the ancient terra-cotta warriors
>unearthed at Xian, but apparently they're not there.
>Stephen Leary
Dr Joseph Needham has established that all chess-like games
Huayong YANG
> It would make more sense to translate "Xiang" not as
> "elephant" but as its other meanings, "resemble," "imitate,"
> "appearance," and "image." As in resembling or symbolic of
> a war battle or warriors. I think this interpretation has the more
> logical claim.
Interesting. Does anyone know how "Xiang Qi" was written originally?
The simplified character for "Xiang" has two meanings that Stephen
mentioned above; but in unsimplified written Chinese, there is a
different character for the meaning "resemble", i.e., man (radical)+
the character for elephant. However, it is true that in ancient Chinese
there were fewer characters, thus one character (such as the one for
"Xiang") may have various meanings. I'll take the question to
alt.chinese.text.
Huayong
William Chang
One usage is "sixiang"--the four possible di-gram combinations of I Ching.
So, "xiangqi" seems to suggest that the world has a simple beginning,
reflected in the myriad combinations of a simple game.
There must be a good English word for this... Microcosm?
-- Bill
Stephen Leary
In a previous article, ya...@twain.ucs.umass.edu (Huayong YANG) says:
>Interesting. Does anyone know how "Xiang Qi" was written originally?
>The simplified character for "Xiang" has two meanings that Stephen
>mentioned above; but in unsimplified written Chinese, there is a
>different character for the meaning "resemble", i.e., man (radical)+
>the character for elephant. However, it is true that in ancient Chinese
>there were fewer characters, thus one character (such as the one for
>"Xiang") may have various meanings. I'll take the question to
>alt.chinese.text.
The oldest Chinese name for a chess-like game played on a board
is "I" in the old Wade system, I guess, probably it's
"Yi" in pinyin. "I" later changed to "Qi" but the characters
for it are slightly different than the one we use for XiangQi
today. To see all the various characters used, tryo to find
a copy of Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China,
Volume 4, part 1, pages 314-334.
The problem is in matching up the words with the games the
writers were talking about. Sometimes it's obvious they
meant WeiQi, sometimes, obviously a different game. Usually
it's not at all possible to tell what game they were referring
to.
It's not clear if modern day XiangQi was descended from Emperor
Wu's XiangXi or "image-game" from the period 560-575 AD.
This game used as pieces the sun, moon, stars, constellations,
and earth, fire, water, wood, and metal. Apparently the
starting position of the pieces changed, depending on what time
of the year it was, and where the stars were at that time.
Needham believes the Sun & Moon pieces were the "Generals" we
use today. He also believes a river divided the baord, and
today's XiangQi game still has the same name on it--
Tian He, the "celestial river" or Milky Way. [But none
of my boards say Tian He on them. Does anyone have a board that
does?] Emperor Wu's game sounds like it might have been
the greatest ever invented! Unfortunately, we don't know
much about it.
The problem with Emperor Wu's game being the precursor of
chess is that if it was invented in 569 AD, how could it have
been modified into western chess, and appeared in India & Persia
by 600AD. So the dates are a problem. On the other hand,
if chess originated in India around 600 AD, could it have
gone to China & been modified into the much different XiangQi
by about 750 AD, the time of its first appearance? We're
really only talking about a historical window of about
100 years.
Needham believes that someone secularized the astrological
game of Emperor Wu into the militaristic game of XiangQi.
Both were called the "image-game" or "symbols-chess", we
can throw out the elephant reference.
But it seems chess in India & chess in China could not have
developed indepedently. Chess is too complex, and the setup
of the pieces is in most respects the same.. One influenced
the other. But which was first, and when did it happen?
There is no for sure reference to "chess" as we know it before
500 AD. Maybe the archeologists will help us out? :-)
Stephen Leary
Huayong YANG
> The oldest Chinese name for a chess-like game played on a board
> is "I" in the old Wade system, I guess, probably it's
> "Yi" in pinyin. "I" later changed to "Qi" but the characters
"Yi" is a verb, meaning "play"; while "Qi" is a noun. "Yi" is to "Qi" as
"live" is to "life".
Huayong
Stephen Leary
In a previous article, ya...@twain.ucs.umass.edu (Huayong YANG) says:
I found this character in my pinyin dictionary. It is "Yi4."
The dictionary claims 2 definitions for it:
1. "Weiqi."
2. "Play chess."
Stephen Leary
Huayong YANG
> I found this character in my pinyin dictionary. It is "Yi4."
> The dictionary claims 2 definitions for it:
> 1. "Weiqi."
> 2. "Play chess."
Well, since you are backed by a dictionary, you are probably right.:)
Anyway those definitions are new to me. In the second definition, does
it specifically say "XiangQi". I doubt it. What is the name of the
dictionary, btw?
Huayong
Stephen Leary
In a previous article, ya...@twain.ucs.umass.edu (Huayong YANG) says:
No, it just says "Play chess." I thought this proved you right--
sounds like a verb applying to a specific activity. Yi must be
an outdated way of meaning "Weiqi." Maybe this word isn't
really used anymore?
The dictionary is just called "A Chinese-English Dictionary", 1985.
Seems to have been printed in Beijing. I can't make out anything
else. :-)
Stephen Leary
Huayong YANG
> No, it just says "Play chess." I thought this proved you right--
> sounds like a verb applying to a specific activity. Yi must be
> an outdated way of meaning "Weiqi." Maybe this word isn't
> really used anymore?
It is still widely used, but only as a verb. And it is used to mean
"play (weiqi)" as often as (if not more than) "play (chess)". Of course,
what I said here is just my opinion. Interestingly enough, I have A Modern
Chinese-English Dictionary that doesn't even include this word! :)
Huayong
Sidney Yuan
There were quite a bit of speculations that Chinese Chess
was originated from another ancient Chinese game LiuBo (later
became SaiZhan before becoming Xiang Qi).
Sidney Yuan
Yutopian Enterprises
Stephen Leary
In a previous article, yuto...@netcom.com (Sidney Yuan) says:
>
>There were quite a bit of speculations that Chinese Chess
>was originated from another ancient Chinese game LiuBo (later
>became SaiZhan before becoming Xiang Qi).
>
There certainly is no shortage of games or divination-procedures
from those early days in China. According to Needham, this game
can be traced back to the 3rd century AD. Moves were determined
by throwing sticks. The board seems to have included a "central
belt of water" and when a piece arrived there it was promoted to
a much stronger piece. Something like in today's game the pawn
gets to move sideways as well after crossing the rover. Needham
cannot seem to find a claim that this game is for sure related
to Xiang Qi. There were a lot of games where moves were determined
by throwing sticks or the pieces on the board. The pieces of
LiuBo were marked with one of the 4 animals symbolizing the
4 directions of space. Another game from this time period was
DanQi, or "crossbow-bullet chess." The pieces symbolized the
12 animals of the zodiac. Play seems to have started by throwing
the pieces on the board, and starting from there. Needham says,
"The relation of all these systems to one another remains obscure."
I don;t see any mention of SaiZhan in Needham's essay.
Stephen Leary