PGN Standard - General Discussion - Compuserv Thread
Christopher A. Morgan
Keith and Steve,
The Compuserv thread changed to a general discussion of chess databases and more
particularly the PGN standard. I VERY MUCH support a universal, NON-proprietary,
standard, provided readers (DOS, WINDOWS, UNIX, MAC, etc) are freely available as
well as non-proprietary utility programs to convert to other formats. The items I picked to
send to you are the most technical an thought out of the posted messages.
This should serve to continue the dialog. You can e-mail to Compuserv members if you
want. If you need to know exactly how to do it, let me know - I can get the address for
you. The particular members user ID's are shown in the message and you'll need that to
e-mail them something
Regards,
Chris
Sub: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
From: Joe R./Chess Coach, 71031,1655 #151501
To: Paul O./Chess Coach, 70641,3236 Friday, December 31, 1993 7:18:07 AM
>>If more information was desired, then there was NIC-style ...
This is precisely the reason I prefer NIC-generated ASCII over any
other I've seen, including NTR.
IMO, PGN needs to establish it's own set of standards, particularly
in the seven "fields" used for "header" information. Admittedly,
and without actually having used the PGN Reader itself (I've only
looked at the PGN textfile), the information contained in PGN "fields"
and/or "headers" makes NO difference ... no difference, that is,
within PGN. The problem comes from conversion between PGN and NTR or
NIC, and vice versa! What is REALLY needed, again IMO, is 1) a PGN
standard -- what should be contained in "field #1", what should be
contained in "field #2", etc., and 2) a utility along the lines of
PGN2NTR or NIC2CB -- wherein one could convert from PGN to NTR or NIC
or where one could convert from NTR or NIC to PGN! Until the PGN
author, if he hasn't already done so, establishes exactly what should
be contained in each of the seven PGN "fields", we're really asking
for trouble, IMO.
You point about PGN establishing it's own "standard", rather than
adapting to those already established is an excellent point!
And, BTW, just how much information in the way of games and gamefiles
are being generated over the Internet, that we don't already have
(or can obtain rather quickly) here in the Forum?? True, I can see
someone posting a game or series of games via Internet within moments
of its completion, but does the transient time between that posting
and when we get it here justify adopting to an at this point sub-
standard standard?? OTOH, I would venture a guess that this Forum
contains a MUCH larger database ... why didn't the PGN author adapt
to what WE have here?? Makes no sense to me. What is even more
puzzling is the fact that we make CB-formatted gamefiles available,
and have more or less standardized on NTR (which, as we know, is
easily convertible to CB-format), AND we make available KnightStalker
DEMO, capable of reading these CB-formatted files ... and it's FREE!!
The only folks left out in the cold in all this are Mac users, but
then they have your programs, and to my knowledge, CB, NIC, and CA
do not even address the Mac platform. Only BookUp and you do!
Subj: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
From: Paul O./Chess Coach, 70641,3236 #151531
To: Joe R./Chess Coach, 71031,1655 Friday, December 31, 1993 10:21:21 AM
Hi Joe,
I reference to your points, I was interested (just going over the latest Rec Game Chess
postings) that PGN there is hardly taking the world by storm. The only such posts I saw
were
from the PCA Interzonal--just as here. Everyone else putting up a chess game would just
do
so in whatever handy style they preferred--usually in the simplest form. The same
complaint
you had regarding a lack of documentation for PGN was also noted.
So we have...
================================PGN
[Event "WCC Game 2"]
[Site "NY"]
[Date "1990.??.??"]
[Round ""]
[White "Kasparov"]
[Black "Karpov"]
[Result "1-0"]
================================NIC
White: Kasparov
Black: Karpov
Place: WCC Game 2 Year: 1990
================================NTR
Kasparov - Karpov
NY WCC Game 2 1990
================================
I wonder how many are going to type in all the characters required by the first? Therefore
it
becomes principally a computer generated format, most likely from a CBuff CB to a
temporary
ascii state so the game can be displayed. But the reader can only handle this single
format
even though games *will* appear in many other formats as well. What is needed is
something
more generalized. I am sure a direct CBuff from CB reader will come along shortly--as
Rob
Weir has hinted.
The PGN can of course be translated (PGN2NTR), run back through NTR, and returned
to a
CB archive. Why not skip the middlemen and transfer directly CB to CB? This could have
been done with the PCA games. Then whoever has the games can create additional
formats
as they so choose--NTR ASCII as in the case of our CF permanent archive.
My .03 -Paul
Subj: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
From: Joe R./Chess Coach, 71031,1655 #151459
To: Christopher Morgan, 71127,14 Friday, December 31, 1993 12:31:02 AM
>>The Forum, though prefers proprieatory formats - the question is >>why??
If you're referring to the ChessBase-formatted files, which are
available for 30-day periods, the answer is really quite simple:
demand! There are many forum members who use ChessBase, KnightStalker,
and Fritz2, all of which used the same proprietory formats. Cbase
was even wise enough to upload a semi-crippled KnightStalker DEMO,
which will read Cbase-formatted gamefiles of up to 1,000 games and
it's FREE! Also, Cbase had the smarts to develop Nunn's Text Reader
(NTR) for converting ASCII to Cbase-formatted gamefiles, making the
conversion of virtually any decent ASCII gamefile to CBase with only
minor header editing via a text editor or word processor.
My "objection" to PGN is strictly limited to the ASCII file in PGN-
format which I've seen -- not being a Windoze user, I have no first-
hand knowledge of the workability of the PGN reader, nor have I
seen a PGN generator. I find the "header" information in a PGN file
a real headache -- there is no "order" in the seven "fields" and
virtually anything can be included in them, in any order, making it
a real nightmare: for example, you may have a PGN file with the
date in field one, the venue in field two, etc., whereas I have a
PGN file with the player of the white pieces in field one, the
player of the black pieces in field two, etc. Developing a conversion
utility to take these two files and convert them to, say, Cbase,
will produce quite different results ... UNLESS I'm strictly a PGN
reader user!! IOW, there is NO consistency, NO standard within PGN
itself! Until this problem alone is addressed by the developer,
there is also very little improvement that can be made to the PGN
program in the way of scans, searches, sorts, etc.!
So, in comparison -- PGN and NTR -- NTR (and consequently CBase)
wins hands down: NTR ASCII is basically "permanent" here in the
Forum, can be converted EASILY to CBase-formatted files, which
in turn can be "read" using ChessBase, KnightStalker, Fritz2, and
KnightStalker DEMO. Add to this the fact that the other "standard"
ASCII format -- one which I occasionally upload here and personally
prefer over ALL others, including CB/NTR -- NICBASE-generated ASCII
-- is EASILY converted to NTR using a really super utility contributed
by a Forum member!!
Therefore, MY question is: why even use PGN at all??
--Joe
P.S. Received your Email file, but haven't had time to look it
over as yet! Thanks for sending it, and for your continued
contributions to the Forum!
Subj: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
From: Robert C. Weir, 71165,2722 #151550
To: Joe R./Chess Coach, 71031,1655 Friday, December 31, 1993 10:43:06 AM
Joe,
According the PGN spec, PGN files are required to have these seven fields:
Event, Site, Date, Round, White, Black and Result. The order really shouldn't
matter to a program working with PGN files, because each field occurs on a line
by itself contained in quotes and brackets: [Event: "PCA Qualifier"]. So, if
done correctly, a program converting from PGN to NTF should work regardless of
the ordering of the fields.
The PGN spec should be in the libraries very soon. Take a look at it. It
really does define everying sufficiently.
-Rob
Subj: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
From: Robert C. Weir, 71165,2722 #151546
To: John R./Assoc. SysOp, 71333,1073 Friday, December 31, 1993 10:43:16 AM
John,
I guess the important thing is that we adopt a standard format that everyone
can use. I did some more reading on PGN last night and saw a lot that I liked.
So, I've changed my mind and now support PGN over NTF and CB format for
archival use.
-Rob
======================================================================
=====
The main points pro and con for the various formats seem to be:
Nunn Text Reader Format
=======================
Pro:
1) We already have a lot of it.
2) Can be converted to CB format via Nunn Reader
3) It is ASCII, so everyone can use it.
4) It is easily produced by exporting from ChessBase
Con:
1) It doesn't represent important fields, such as ECO code, NIC codes, etc.
2) It doesn't represent annotations, comments, or positions.
3) Is not well suited to program manipulation, e.g. given a players
field like this: "Medina-Garcia-Parma" there is no way to tell whether
it is "Medina-Garcia" vs "Parma" or "Medina" vs "Garcia-Parma".
4) It is tied to programs, the Nunn Reader and ChessBase, which we have
no control over. If ChessBase, in release four of their product, changes
the export format of CB and input format of the Nunn Reader, then we
are all in trouble.
Portable Game Notation
======================
Pro:
1) PGN will be adopted by the USENET, a good source of newsworthy games.
2) Zarkov 3.0 can read and write PGN games.
3) PGN can represent annotations, ECO and NIC codes, positions, etc.
4) A utility exists which converts from ChessBase format to PGN
5) A utility exists which converts PGN to NTF
6) A viewers for PGN games exist for Windows, X-Windows, and others.
Con:
1) The PGN standard is still under revision
2) The CB->PGN utility has a few bugs in it.
3) There is no way of converting directly from PGN->CB
ChessBase Format
================
Pro:
1) Compact
2) Supports annotations, comments, variations, ECO codes, etc
3) Major databases can import CB files
4) CBUFF will make the format more open
5) Free KnightStalker Demo allows all DOS users access.
Con:
1) Proprietary file format
2) PC/DOS-centric
2) Doesn't support NIC opening codes.
3) CBUFF is still under developement (buggy) and unsupported by ChessBase.
Subj: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
From: Robert C. Weir, 71165,2722 #151548
To: Christopher Morgan, 71127,14 Friday, December 31, 1993 10:43:28 AM
Chris,
I've taken a look at the PGN spec and have to agree with you that it is a better format
than
NTF (used in the forum libraries).
One problem with PGN is that it is new. We can't adopt here it until we have the
conversion
utilities available that give at least the functionality we currently get with NTF. The game
standard can't be abstractly universal and portable. It must be actually so, with available
tooks for these tasks:
1) A game viewer for DOS, Windows and Mac. (We have one for Windows) 2)
Conversion
utility: NIC text->PGN (Shouldn't be hard to write) 3) Conversion utility: NTF->PGN
(Shouldn't
be hard to write) 4) Conversion utility: PGN->NTF (We have this) 5) Conversion utility:
CB->PGN (We have this) 6) Conversion utility: PGN->CB. (Two steps: PGN->NTR and
then
the Nunn Reader)
I wonder, what else would be required to get equivalent or greater functionality out of
PGN as
we currently get from NTF? What other tasks are performed on our NTF files?
-Rob
M.D.Crowther
: TO Steve Edwards and Keith Fuller
: Keith and Steve,
: The Compuserv thread changed to a general discussion of chess databases and more
: particularly the PGN standard. I VERY MUCH support a universal, NON-proprietary,
: standard, provided readers (DOS, WINDOWS, UNIX, MAC, etc) are freely available as
: well as non-proprietary utility programs to convert to other formats. The items I picked to
: send to you are the most technical an thought out of the posted messages.
: This should serve to continue the dialog. You can e-mail to Compuserv members if you
: want. If you need to know exactly how to do it, let me know - I can get the address for
: you. The particular members user ID's are shown in the message and you'll need that to
: e-mail them something
: Regards,
: Chris
: Sub: PGN Issues/Discussion Section: Time Out
: From: Joe R./Chess Coach, 71031,1655 #151501
: To: Paul O./Chess Coach, 70641,3236 Friday, December 31, 1993 7:18:07 AM
: >>If more information was desired, then there was NIC-style ...
: This is precisely the reason I prefer NIC-generated ASCII over any
: other I've seen, including NTR.
......
: You point about PGN establishing it's own "standard", rather than
: adapting to those already established is an excellent point!
: And, BTW, just how much information in the way of games and gamefiles
: are being generated over the Internet, that we don't already have
: (or can obtain rather quickly) here in the Forum?? True, I can see
: someone posting a game or series of games via Internet within moments
: of its completion, but does the transient time between that posting
: and when we get it here justify adopting to an at this point sub-
: standard standard?? OTOH, I would venture a guess that this Forum
: contains a MUCH larger database ... why didn't the PGN author adapt
: to what WE have here??
Because most of the people on the internet don't recieve anything from
the Compuserve forum. How about contributing some of the items in the
forum to the general internet since Compuserve clearly take things from
the internet? How many informational postings come from Compuserve to
rec.games.chess? I understand that compuserve trawl the internet for
information and then sell the information on without accreditation to
the original author. - or at least that is what I read from one USENET
group thread. The internet is about putting things in in order that later
you will get things out. Not taking without putting something in, in
return. Or that's how it appears to me.
: Makes no sense to me. What is even more
: puzzling is the fact that we make CB-formatted gamefiles available,
: and have more or less standardized on NTR (which, as we know, is
: easily convertible to CB-format), AND we make available KnightStalker
: DEMO, capable of reading these CB-formatted files ... and it's FREE!!
.....with your Compuserve subscription.
: The only folks left out in the cold in all this are Mac users, but
: then they have your programs, and to my knowledge, CB, NIC, and CA
: do not even address the Mac platform. Only BookUp and you do!
Marlk Crowther 4/2/94