WMCCC Jakarta pro/con list
Urban Koistinen
I like lists, so here is one:
What is good and bad about having WMCCC in Jakarta
+ Jakarta has agreed to pay for the event
+ great spicy food
- Jakarta has not paid as agreed (half air tickets)
- no beer
- Ban banned
- expensive to go there for those without free ticket
- general oppression & ET genocide
- US SD advice against going
What have I forgotten?
Are there any local entries?
What have I gotten wrong?
Chris Whittington
hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>
> Urban Koistinen (m10...@abc.se) wrote:
> : I like lists, so here is one:
> :
> : What is good and bad about having WMCCC in Jakarta
> :
> : + Jakarta has agreed to pay for the event
> : + great spicy food
> :
> : - Jakarta has not paid as agreed (half air tickets)
>
> It had something to do with trying to guarantee plane tickets too far in
> the future for some economy purchase plan I believe...
>
> : - no beer
>
> A couple of people from there have said this is false. Beer is
> available. No first-hand knowledge of course... :)
>
> : - Ban banned
>
> Not banned as I understand it, just that there's no direct way to obtain
> a visa between two countries with no diplomatic ties. I believe that the
> Ban guys are choosing to not go for several reasons, probably foremost
> being that they would be uncomfortable over there, which is hard to fault
> them for. Should something untoward happen, they'd certainly be "on their
> own" in a foreign country, which is like being up a well-known type of creek
> without any paddle. About like I'd feel visiting Iraq for example.
Look, the Junior guys have stated very clearly that whatever anybody
wants to call it, they believe that its a ban.
Marsland's first post says the same thing. No visa, no welcome
let alone a warm one.
The only query is the Marsland second posting that came via Bruce.
The Junior guys read it and said they considered the expression
'banned' was appropriate.
They are the banned guys, they say it, why don't we just respect
them and accept it ?
Or, if it comes down to accepting versions then I don't see why
the Israelis should be making it up. And, further, their line is
in agreement with the first ICCA posting.
And, further still, if they could get a visa, it would surely
pay the local organisers and/or the ICCA to have a quiet word
in the right places in Indonesia to get a public statement and
offer that visas would be made available. After all, Indonesia
is a dictatorship, dictatorships are known for their ability
to make anything happen at short notice if they so want. The
authorities there can't want this issue to spiral out of control
with ensuing bad international publicity. And its probably only
a matter of time now before this stuff gets out of this newsgroup
and into the press.
I can see why the ICCA should want to put a spin on the story
after the fire-storm that their first post created. The whole
tournament was within a whisker of collapsing. Note I use the
word 'spin'. This is a PR term to describe putting the story in
a favourable light and/or generating the ammunition for potential
supporters to see it in a favourable light.
There's too much dispute of motives of the various opposing
participants. Slur and innuendo.
I've been more or less accused of withdrawing because I don't
want to pay the flights, or because I think my program won't win;
rather than my stated position that I stand by banned fellow
programmers.
The Junior guys have been more or less accused of withdrawal
because they don't want to pay flights or some other unspecified
reasons, rather than their position which is that they are not
welcome and refused visas.
What should we do, ask Junior to make a third post ? They hardly
need to, they've made their position pretty clear.
>
> : - expensive to go there for those without free ticket
> : - general oppression & ET genocide
> : - US SD advice against going
> :
> : What have I forgotten?
There are plenty of pluses to going.
+ on a cultural level you can see stuff and learn
+ you get to directly meet and talk with people doing the same thing
+ its warm (er than Finland anyway)
+ you can maybe have your program perform well
+ you can learn much from your mistakes
+ you can get seeded with new ideas
+ you can get away for a few days, kind of holiday
These tourneys are a good thing. Its good to go. That's why
its such a shame that Junior is kept out, and every plus you're
giving up is another good reason to support them. The support
means something.
Chris Whittington
> : Are there any local entries?
>
> Not that I know of, no...
>
> : What have I gotten wrong?
> :
> : Urban.K...@abc.se - e...@algonet.se
Robert Hyatt
Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: Look, the Junior guys have stated very clearly that whatever anybody
: wants to call it, they believe that its a ban.
:
: Marsland's first post says the same thing. No visa, no welcome
: let alone a warm one.
:
: The only query is the Marsland second posting that came via Bruce.
:
: The Junior guys read it and said they considered the expression
: 'banned' was appropriate.
:
: They are the banned guys, they say it, why don't we just respect
: them and accept it ?
Banned means (to me) "You will not be granted entry into our country,
no exceptions, no entry. <period>" I don't believe this has happened,
because the two countries are not at war, I don't believe Indonesia has an
axe to grind with the Junior programmers. Their country just does not have
diplomatic relations with Israel, which is the end of the story. I think it
might be difficult to get them in, it might even be impossible. But "junior"
was *not* "banned". Any more than a Libyan team would be banned from the
US. They might have a difficult time but the "ban" seems to be (to me)
a political issue between two countries, *not* something directed toward
the Junior team as is often implied. There's a big difference, at least
to me...
:
: Or, if it comes down to accepting versions then I don't see why
: the Israelis should be making it up. And, further, their line is
: in agreement with the first ICCA posting.
And both seem to be within the description offered in the second ICCA
response as well. I don't see the contradiction. Tony said that there
might be several contributing factors that prevented them from trying all
possible alternatives for entry, he didn't say that any one of those
possible reasons was what led to the decision. Shay said he didn't feel
welcome, I personally believe that, although it's not the fault of the ICCA
or (possibly) Indonesia. I don't know what led to the break between Israel
and Indonesia, but it could have been initiated by either country. It
happens, and it's not necessarily directed toward the Junior team.
:
: And, further still, if they could get a visa, it would surely
This seems consistent with what they've said before, and is also
consistent with the ICCA position. They don't feel "welcome."
They can't directly obtain a VISA. Those two reasons would be enough
for me to say "forget it"... If the cost of travel is added to this,
it would simply sway me further, making me less likely to try to solve
a problem that might be difficult and time-consuming to solve. I
personally regret that they are not going, that they can't go, and that
there's likely nothing anyone can do to get them to go. Were I in their
place, I doubt I'd go if a VISA magically appeared.
:
: What should we do, ask Junior to make a third post ? They hardly
: need to, they've made their position pretty clear.
:
The whole thing has been clear to me. No more posts are needed...
Robert Hyatt
Urban Koistinen (m10...@abc.se) wrote:
: I like lists, so here is one:
:
: What is good and bad about having WMCCC in Jakarta
:
: + Jakarta has agreed to pay for the event
: + great spicy food
:
: - Jakarta has not paid as agreed (half air tickets)
According to Levy, he later received the rest, so that was taken care of.
It had something to do with trying to guarantee plane tickets too far in
the future for some economy purchase plan I believe...
: - no beer
A couple of people from there have said this is false. Beer is
available. No first-hand knowledge of course... :)
: - Ban banned
Not banned as I understand it, just that there's no direct way to obtain
a visa between two countries with no diplomatic ties. I believe that the
Ban guys are choosing to not go for several reasons, probably foremost
being that they would be uncomfortable over there, which is hard to fault
them for. Should something untoward happen, they'd certainly be "on their
own" in a foreign country, which is like being up a well-known type of creek
without any paddle. About like I'd feel visiting Iraq for example.
: - expensive to go there for those without free ticket
: - general oppression & ET genocide
: - US SD advice against going
:
: What have I forgotten?
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> Look, the Junior guys have stated very clearly that whatever anybody
> wants to call it, they believe that its a ban.
>
> Marsland's first post says the same thing. No visa, no welcome
> let alone a warm one.
>
> The only query is the Marsland second posting that came via Bruce.
>
> The Junior guys read it and said they considered the expression
> 'banned' was appropriate.
>
> They are the banned guys, they say it, why don't we just respect
> them and accept it ?
1) That second posting went to all WMCCC participants in the form of e-mail.
It was from Levy and Marlsand. I posted it with no revisions. Around the
time I saw the email I asked Levy if I could post it, and he said that he'd
have to talk to Marsland. The next day Marsland called me on the phone, to
talk to me about posting it. During our conversation he decided he wanted to
post it. It turned out that he didn't have a readily accessible version of
the final draft, and that I did, so I volunteered to post it, and he agreed
to this. Just so you'll know.
2) Your system for deciding who to believe, when there is a dispute between
two parties, is strange. I can't see any method to it other than, "I'll
believe whoever suits me."
3) I don't think that anyone is lying here. I read Bushinsky's second post,
the significant new information in that post is that they would have had a
problem going to Indonesia as representatives of Israel. They don't accuse
Marsland and Levy of lying, they just add this. I think this is a
significant addition, but I don't know what to make of it. Does anyone know
of any precedent for this kind of thing? Is it generally impossible for a
citizen of country A to represent country A in a trip to country B, if
country B doesn't recognize country A? Is this a common situation?
The contention from the Israeli team is that they may have been able to get
there, but not under terms that grant them full respect. I sympathize with
this. I would like to know if anyone else has an opinion on this narrow
issue.
> I can see why the ICCA should want to put a spin on the story
> after the fire-storm that their first post created. The whole
> tournament was within a whisker of collapsing. Note I use the
> word 'spin'. This is a PR term to describe putting the story in
> a favourable light and/or generating the ammunition for potential
> supporters to see it in a favourable light.
This is not a great situation, but rather than find the root of the problem
in evil deeds and attitudes, I think that most of this problem is caused by
miscommunication and divergent expectations.
I think that if we can agree that a) Marsland and Levy aren't Satans One and
Two, and that b) the Israelis aren't lying in their depiction of events, then
we can perhaps have a real conversation about this.
bruce
graham_laight
1. If you treat sponsors badly, it's harder to find new sponsors in the future
If you want to kill something, just keep kicking the sponsors in the teeth.
Happens time and time again. I know people will dispute this, but I believe that
a boycott of Jakarta would do computer chess MUCH more harm than it will do the
hosts. Anyone who thinks that a tournament played over the internet will be as
attractive as a tournament with the participants in one place is guilty of
misjudgement.
2. Events like these are good for the sport
I've never been to a computer chess event (I'm waiting to be invited to one in
England), but I would imagine they're more fun than human chess tournaments
because there is no need to be quiet - a bit of an atmosphere could be generated.
This should be a selling point for computer chess competitions. I'm also
surprised that people like Ed Schroder don't mail everyone on their mailing list
(and I know I'm on his list) to invite people to the Dutch competitions.
In article <51j470$j...@oden.abc.se>, m10...@abc.se says...
>
>I like lists, so here is one:
>
>What is good and bad about having WMCCC in Jakarta
>
>+ Jakarta has agreed to pay for the event
>+ great spicy food
>
>- Jakarta has not paid as agreed (half air tickets)
>- no beer
>- Ban banned
>- expensive to go there for those without free ticket
>- general oppression & ET genocide
>- US SD advice against going
>
>What have I forgotten?
>Are there any local entries?
Urban Koistinen
Robert Hyatt (hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu) wrote:
h> Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
h> : Look, the Junior guys have stated very clearly that whatever anybody
h> : wants to call it, they believe that its a ban.
h> :
h> : Marsland's first post says the same thing. No visa, no welcome
h> : let alone a warm one.
h> :
h> : The only query is the Marsland second posting that came via Bruce.
h> :
h> : The Junior guys read it and said they considered the expression
h> : 'banned' was appropriate.
h> :
h> : They are the banned guys, they say it, why don't we just respect
h> : them and accept it ?
h> Banned means (to me) "You will not be granted entry into our country,
h> no exceptions, no entry. <period>"
Has that ever happened?
Has anyone ever been banned by your definition?
h> I don't believe this has happened,
h> because the two countries are not at war, I don't believe Indonesia has an
h> axe to grind with the Junior programmers. Their country just does not have
h> diplomatic relations with Israel, which is the end of the story.
h> I think it
h> might be difficult to get them in, it might even be impossible.
h> But "junior"
h> was *not* "banned". Any more than a Libyan team would be banned from the
h> US. They might have a difficult time but the "ban" seems to be (to me)
h> a political issue between two countries, *not* something directed toward
h> the Junior team as is often implied. There's a big difference, at least
h> to me...
I have changed the entry from "Ban banned" to "Israeli Ban team banned"
to reflect that the team is only banned from entering as an Israeli team,
and also it is not Ban that is banned, only its trainers.
I may be wrong about the last if say, Indonesia has a ban on some
things "made in Israel" which I have heard of some countries having.
Robert Hyatt
Urban Koistinen (m10...@abc.se) wrote:
: Robert Hyatt (hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu) wrote:
: h> Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: h> : wants to call it, they believe that its a ban.
: h> :
: h> : Marsland's first post says the same thing. No visa, no welcome
: h> : let alone a warm one.
: h> :
: h> : The only query is the Marsland second posting that came via Bruce.
: h> :
: h> : The Junior guys read it and said they considered the expression
: h> : 'banned' was appropriate.
: h> :
: h> : They are the banned guys, they say it, why don't we just respect
: h> : them and accept it ?
:
: h> Banned means (to me) "You will not be granted entry into our country,
: h> no exceptions, no entry. <period>"
:
: Has that ever happened?
: Has anyone ever been banned by your definition?
I think that, for example, visiting IRAQ during the gulf war was difficult
if not impossible, excepting for the neighboring countries where US citizens
could obtain entry, like Saudi Arabia for an example. This "banning" wasn't
quite the same thing... just two countries that are not communicating, which
makes opening their borders to each other difficult.
:
: h> I don't believe this has happened,
: h> because the two countries are not at war, I don't believe Indonesia has an
: h> axe to grind with the Junior programmers. Their country just does not have
: h> diplomatic relations with Israel, which is the end of the story.
: h> I think it
: h> might be difficult to get them in, it might even be impossible.
: h> But "junior"
: h> was *not* "banned". Any more than a Libyan team would be banned from the
: h> US. They might have a difficult time but the "ban" seems to be (to me)
: h> a political issue between two countries, *not* something directed toward
: h> the Junior team as is often implied. There's a big difference, at least
: h> to me...
:
: I have changed the entry from "Ban banned" to "Israeli Ban team banned"
: to reflect that the team is only banned from entering as an Israeli team,
: and also it is not Ban that is banned, only its trainers.
: I may be wrong about the last if say, Indonesia has a ban on some
: things "made in Israel" which I have heard of some countries having.
:
: Urban.K...@abc.se
This is much closer to fact, although were I from Israel, I'd think about
visiting Indonesia, period, even if I could obtain a visa, because I'm not
sure I'd feel either welcome or safe.
graham_laight
In article <51v6rp$e...@news-central.tiac.net>, da...@laraby.tiac.net says...
>
>GrahamLaight wrote:
>: 1. If you treat sponsors badly, it's harder to find new sponsors in the future
>:
>: If you want to kill something, just keep kicking the sponsors in the teeth.
>
>: Happens time and time again. I know people will dispute this, but I
>believe that a boycott of Jakarta would do computer chess MUCH more harm
>than it will do the hosts.
>
>not to know what's going down in Jakarta, most people who are at least
>moderately intelligent do. And they will know that it was because of the
>specifics of the situation.
Eh? When did I say I didn't know what's going down? I'm sure I didn't.
>
> Or perhaps you are worried that another country, like maybe Iraq,
>will be dissuaded from sponsoring the next tournament?
A boycott of Jakarta would be a disaster. It would show the world that
1. Computer chess people do not take their sport seriously
2. An agreement with computer chess people is not binding
England has just played Indonesia in the Chess Olympiad in Armenia. It is churlish
to say we can't have a computer chess tournament there. Feeble, in fact.
I look forward to Jakarta producing a new world champion!
Robert Hyatt
GrahamLaight wrote:
:
: I look forward to Jakarta producing a new world champion!
Of course, it is *guaranteed* to do so... and *then* the debate
will really start... :)
Chris Whittington
Agreed.
There will be a WMCCC Jakarta World Champion, and we should
respect those people who are going.
Good luck to all of you.
Hope next year is better organised, better attended, better
respected.
Chris Whittington
Moritz Berger
I just had decided to leave this topic alone because I do very much agree
with some things that Garby Leon pointed out in his posts about the WMCCC
in Jakarta.
Your statement, however, that this time the sponsors of the event could
be hurt and your implications are very controversial for me. IT IS OUR
GOAL TO PUNISH THE INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING and not
just look away.
Future sponsors will be much more unwilling to invest in this kind of
events if their name can be quoted in one line with Indonesia. "Oh,
you're sponsoring a computer chess tournament. I wonder how they get
somebody to give them money. Who sponsored it last time?" - "Well, last
time it was Indonesia". A mass murdering regime is by no means good a
good company. It doesn't create positive emotions or thoughts and that's
what sponsors expect if they give you your money (in the case of
Indonesia, they want it as an international acknowledgment of their
country).
Have you ever wondered why somebody not interested in computer chess
would be willing to sponsor this event? I presume that they would have
liked to sponsor more high-profile sports events of more interested to
the general people but the more reputable organizations (sorry, ICCA)
would have refused so they took the best they could get. I'm very happy
that many programmers devalued this event by not participating in it so
it might not only be more or less useless for the computer chess
community but (since this is the target audience of the event) even more
so for the Indonesian government. $50000 not spend on weapons but
evaporated for their purposes.
The fact that the WMCCC is devalued is very sad for all of us, the
programmers themselves are the ones that are hurt most by it. I hope that
the next WMCCC will be different since I also very much appreciate this
kind of event.
Let's show the world that
1. Computer chess people are to be taken serious because they are decent
people and show responsible behavior (one necessary thing for any
sponsorship is that the "athletes" are "good-guys").
It's absolutely clear to me and the Indonesian government that Bob, Bruce
et al. are good-guys. They want to use their good reputation as a moral
fig-leaf to cover their crimes against humanity (a classical example of a
so-called image transfer).
2. If you want to sponsor the ICCA events, you will not be able to
devalue the event
by restrictions to ban individual participants.
3. The WMCCC is a very positive event (thus should be sponsored). The
Indonesian government is one of the worst on this planet and produces
only negative feelings. The WMCCC and Indonesia just don't fit together.
As I said before, we could have tried to get some publicity for a boycott
(which should have been a total withdrawal). Everybody who's interested
in computer chess would have liked to know why this tournament isn't
being held and we could have passed on informations about Indonesia like
Garby did in this newsgroup to increase publical awareness of the problem
(one part of it the use of e.g. American weapons for genocidal attacks on
people in East Timor) and thus putting some pressure on our governments
to no longer support the regime.
Moritz
Graham Laight wrote in article <525iep$7...@lex.zippo.com>...
Urban Koistinen
Robert Hyatt (hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu) wrote:
h> Urban Koistinen (m10...@abc.se) wrote:
h> : Robert Hyatt (hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu) wrote:
h> : h> Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
h> : h> : Look, the Junior guys have stated very clearly that whatever anybody
h> : h> : wants to call it, they believe that its a ban.
h> : h> :
h> : h> : Marsland's first post says the same thing. No visa, no welcome
h> : h> : let alone a warm one.
h> : h> :
h> : h> : The only query is the Marsland second posting that came via Bruce.
h> : h> :
h> : h> : The Junior guys read it and said they considered the expression
h> : h> : 'banned' was appropriate.
h> : h> : They are the banned guys, they say it, why don't we just respect
h> : h> : them and accept it ?
h> :
h> : h> Banned means (to me) "You will not be granted entry into our country,
h> : h> no exceptions, no entry. <period>"
h> :
h> : Has that ever happened?
h> : Has anyone ever been banned by your definition?
h> I think that, for example, visiting IRAQ during the gulf war was difficult
h> if not impossible, excepting for the neighboring countries where US
h> citizens
h> could obtain entry, like Saudi Arabia for an example.
Difficult is not the same as no exceptions, no entry.
For entering Iraq at that time it might have been enough to pay for entry
with some weapons, or possibly offering to help as a human shield,
or just money.
Note that Jakarta has not said that the team is welcome on a
tourist visa gotten in say Jordan.
h> This "banning" wasn't
h> quite the same thing... just two countries that are not communicating,
h> which
h> makes opening their borders to each other difficult.
The sponsor could be more helpful,
even if the countries are not communicating.
h> : h> I don't believe this has happened,
h> : h> because the two countries are not at war,
h> : h> I don't believe Indonesia has an
h> : h> axe to grind with the Junior programmers.
h> : h> Their country just does not have
h> : h> diplomatic relations with Israel, which is the end of the story.
They do have relations with ICCA, and should use those to help the
Ban team enter. Advising ICCA that the Ban team may enter on tourist
visas would help, at least if ICCA may cite their advice.
h> : h> I think it
h> : h> might be difficult to get them in, it might even be impossible.
h> : h> But "junior"
h> : h> was *not* "banned".
h> : h> Any more than a Libyan team would be banned from the US.
h> : h> They might have a difficult time but the "ban" seems to be (to me)
h> : h> a political issue between two countries,
h> : h> *not* something directed toward
h> : h> the Junior team as is often implied.
h> : h> There's a big difference, at least to me...
h> : I have changed the entry from "Ban banned" to "Israeli Ban team banned"
h> : to reflect that the team is only banned from entering as an Israeli team,
h> : and also it is not Ban that is banned, only its trainers.
h> : I may be wrong about the last if say, Indonesia has a ban on some
h> : things "made in Israel" which I have heard of some countries having.
h> This is much closer to fact, although were I from Israel, I'd think about
h> visiting Indonesia, period, even if I could obtain a visa, because I'm not
h> sure I'd feel either welcome or safe.
In the next list I'll change it to "Israeli Ban team banned from Indonesia"
to reflect the fact that they are not banned from the WMCCC, only Indonesia
and if the WMCCC moved they might participate.
Robert Hyatt
Moritz Berger (ber...@athene.informatik.uni-bonn.de) wrote:
: <snip>
:
: Have you ever wondered why somebody not interested in computer chess
: would be willing to sponsor this event? I presume that they would have
: liked to sponsor more high-profile sports events of more interested to
: the general people but the more reputable organizations (sorry, ICCA)
: would have refused so they took the best they could get. I'm very happy
: that many programmers devalued this event by not participating in it so
: it might not only be more or less useless for the computer chess
: community but (since this is the target audience of the event) even more
: so for the Indonesian government. $50000 not spend on weapons but
: evaporated for their purposes.
The sponsors are a university, which is (from my personal contacts with them)
interested in computer chess as an academic pursuit. They have plans to
develop their own computer chess program. They were not put up to host this
event by the government, just a group of computer scientists that are interested
in the subject. Not too unlike past events I've been to.
One point we differ on radically: I don't consider myself a good-guy,
a bad-guy, a well-known guy or anything of the sort. I'd suspect that for
most, they couldn't pick me out of a line-up. I don't think that I, or
any other single person, accounts for much in the way of "prestige".
Rather, it's the "group" that makes the tournament, not the individual
players...