http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/uiterwyk/icca_j.toc.htm
http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca/iccainfo.htm
I suspect that the "htm" should be "html"...
One interesting bit of news is that Junior is playing, or at least is
supposed to be playing. They are running over the internet somehow,
maybe on ICC, I don't know. I spent an hour last nite trying to reach
Shay by phone, but couldn't get into Israel... they were having problems
connecting and Marsland couldn't get a call out of Indonesia, but we
could chat on ICC, however I couldn't get into Israel. I gave up around
12 midnite.
no results of any kind, although I suspect Crafty lost round 1. Somehow
the time got blasted and it was trying to use about 40 minutes per move,
probably an operator typo I suspect, so after the first long search it
was corrected, but had to play blitz the rest of the game. No word on
the outcome, game was even at time I left.
Ferret's machine got lost, and had not reached the site at the start
of the first round. They were delaying until it showed up, but at
midnite (3 hours late) it had not arrived.
There are two Crafty programs there, mine, and 9.31 entered by the
Indonesians. This is something that seems wrong to me and I'll take
it up with the ICCA later, as this was discussed at length and I
thought it was clear that Crafty is Crafty, period. Makes little
sense to have two...
More as I get results. If anyone can connect to the above sites, try
to do so and post results if you find any...
Bob
I was told (by a little bird, again), that the ICCA were trying to
get Junior in to play by ICC, last weekend.
The ICCA line over Junior was that Junior could have gone to
Indonesia if the Israelis had tried hard enough to get in.
Ie. that the Junior team was not going through their own fault.
If they've now been persuaded to play by ICC/Internet, then this
option should presumably have been open to other participants.
Except that it wasn't.
Something seems not right.
On the question of the www sites above, I also got the
no DNS entry (at 19.00 GMT, 8 October).
Chris Whittington
Bob
Results after round 1. Note that Ferret/Schach was delayed
due to some foul-up in getting Ferret's machine into Jakarta.
Somehow (according to Bruce last nite late) it ended up in
Malaysia. No word on what's happened since or what the
status of the first game is.
No word on Junior either, although they are still listed as
participants. With an odd number of teams, they were given
a bye in round one.
Fritz Gandalf 0-1
Schach Ferret delay
Nimzo Schredder =-=
Centaur Virtual Chess 0-1
Dark Thought Isischess 1-0
Gunda 1 Crafty 1-0
Junior bye
Pandix XXXX =-=
Comet Diogenes 1-0
Francesca Zeus 0-1
Patzer Heureka 1-0
Woodpusher The Turk 1-0
Breakthrough Interchess 1-0
Ananse Nightmare 0-1
Gunda 1 is crafty 9.31, with some (unknown as to what) modifications
made by the Indonesians. It is also running on a P6/200, as are most
of the competitors it seems.
More after the next round... here's some "partial" round 2 scores from
games already completed...
Virtual Chess Dark Thought
Gandalf Gunda
Eugen Comet
Ferret Nimzo 1-0
Schredder Schach
Crafty Fritz
Isichess Centaur 0-1
Zeus Patzer 1-0
Nightmare Breakthrough
XXXX Woodpusher 0-1
The Turk Pandix
Diogenes Francesca
Heurika Ananse
Interchess Bye
BTW, this is all avalable from
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwyk/14wmccc.htm
via netscape...
In any case, *not* an auspicious start for the "home team."
:(
Bob
I agree here. I'd much rather be operating crafty myself to take
care of odd events, rather than trying to anticipate what can and
will go wrong, and try to provide Tom with a "guide" to digging
out after a bomb goes off.
I'm already "restless" about this event, now with two copies of Crafty
playing, I'm "antsy" and getting worse. I wonder if we will one day
have an event where 90% of the players are crafty versions? :)
Bob
Thought that was the mono-cultural idea; only joking :)
Chris Whittington
>
> Bob
>
Another killer book ? :)
Gandalf smashed Hiarcs last time in such a way.
Gandalf is a very selective and speculative program - it also
beat CSTal at Paderborn after 120 moves.
But when I set up CSTal against it on autoplayer some weeks ago
the result was 17-3 to CSTal. Gandalf has a relatively low
SSDF rating, but it is a program with a killer punch at times, it
seems.
Chris Whittington
> Schach Ferret delay
> Nimzo Schredder =-=
> Centaur Virtual Chess 0-1
> Dark Thought Isischess 1-0
> Gunda 1 Crafty 1-0
This is typical ICCA, and a good idea. Put the two 'identicals'
on together first, so that there is no possibility of 'arranging'
the result of a later game.
> Junior bye
> Pandix XXXX =-=
> Comet Diogenes 1-0
> Francesca Zeus 0-1
> Patzer Heureka 1-0
> Woodpusher The Turk 1-0
> Breakthrough Interchess 1-0
> Ananse Nightmare 0-1
chuckle, chuckle, no points yet for Ananse. Will the habit of
a lifetime be broken, one wonders :)
>
>
> Gunda 1 is crafty 9.31, with some (unknown as to what) modifications
> made by the Indonesians. It is also running on a P6/200, as are most
> of the competitors it seems.
>
> More after the next round... here's some "partial" round 2 scores from
> games already completed...
>
> Virtual Chess Dark Thought
> Gandalf Gunda
> Eugen Comet
> Ferret Nimzo 1-0
Nice result for Bruce
> Schredder Schach
> Crafty Fritz
> Isichess Centaur 0-1
> Zeus Patzer 1-0
> Nightmare Breakthrough
> XXXX Woodpusher 0-1
> The Turk Pandix
> Diogenes Francesca
> Heurika Ananse
> Interchess Bye
And still no Junior. Fingering on 'ban' (Junior on ICC) gives
the last time connected at 02.00 Monday GMT.
Are they going to play,or are they on something other than ICC ?
Chris Whittington
At least it seems to be the case on FICS. 8-)
Johanes Suhardjo (joh...@farida.cc.nd.edu)
--
Finagle's Creed:
Science is true. Don't be misled by facts.
>
> Fritz Gandalf 0-1
> Schach Ferret delay
> Nimzo Schredder =-=
> Centaur Virtual Chess 0-1
> Dark Thought Isischess 1-0
> Gunda 1 Crafty 1-0
> Junior bye
> Pandix XXXX =-=
> Comet Diogenes 1-0
> Francesca Zeus 0-1
> Patzer Heureka 1-0
> Woodpusher The Turk 1-0
> Breakthrough Interchess 1-0
> Ananse Nightmare 0-1
>
>
> Gunda 1 is crafty 9.31, with some (unknown as to what) modifications
> made by the Indonesians. It is also running on a P6/200, as are most
> of the competitors it seems.
>
that is just wrong! by the sponsors ..you end playing a program you
programed..ugh... Bob, it's good thing I was not there ..I would have
forfeited the game rather than engage in a crafty vs crafty game ,,I don't
believe it... I would have guessed that only the *authors* should have
been allowed to enter their programs...what was to stop somebody from
entering Rebel8 , MCPro-5 etc..., this is dead wrong!
I agree. However, I'm reluctant to make a big case about this, because
there are lots of people visiting Jakarta that I'd like to call friends.
Angering anyone can only hurt the ones over there, as they have to get
their machines back thru customs, etc... I did think that there was a
"one program one author" rule... apparently not however...
Never thought of it that way... :) I'd simply have not allowed "2"
in, then it wouldn't be an issue. hmmm...
:
: And still no Junior. Fingering on 'ban' (Junior on ICC) gives
: the last time connected at 02.00 Monday GMT.
:
: Are they going to play,or are they on something other than ICC ?
:
No Idea. I get the idea they were not playing thru ICC, but I'm
on the outside looking in just like most everyone else. Who knows
what's going on...
Perhaps they modified it enough to be considered a separate program.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Mirabile <t...@mail.htp.com> http://www.angelfire.com/pg9/timm/ |
| TimM on FICS - telnet://fics.onenet.net:5000/ PGP Key ID: B7CE30D1 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This little bird of yours apparently also flew to my place. It told
me there was a possibility that Junior might play through the Internet.
As I see it there would be two sides to the matter:
1) they would weaken their being banned position, because they would
admit it was a question of trying hard enough.
2) ICCA would no longer be able to ignore that something went wrong.
--
Walter Ravenek
how so? i don't see how their remote participation proves
that they could have participated in-person (like everyone else)
if they had tried harder.
whether or not you call it "banning", it is clear they were
not treated equally with the other contestants. although i don't
see their playing over the net as an admission of anything, i hope
they will not play... IMHO there are good moral reasons not to.
>2) ICCA would no longer be able to ignore that something went wrong.
? if they ignored the deaths of 200,000 people... if they ignored
the continuing arrests and human rights violations... if they ignored
the absence of most of the top commercial programs... if they can
ignore these things, i don't see why they can't ignore whatever
the Junior team does too.
and as Bob Hyatt (?) already pointed out, if Junior is allowed
to participate remotely, then why weren't others given the same option?
Bob also made another good point earlier about programs entered
by persons other than their creator. i agree that programs should
only be entered with the permission of their creator.
and i don't remember seeing "gunda" on the list of entrants
released earlier by ICCA.
--
--- don fong ``i still want the peace dividend''
--
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote in article
<53epo1$r...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>...
> Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> :
> : This is typical ICCA, and a good idea. Put the two 'identicals'
> : on together first, so that there is no possibility of 'arranging'
> : the result of a later game.
>
> Never thought of it that way... :) I'd simply have not allowed "2"
> in, then it wouldn't be an issue. hmmm...
Agreed, two should not be in.
But this is their way of dealing with it when there are (two that is)
>
There's more to this than meets the eye I suspect, because the very last
list of participants released by the ICCA (and posted here, BTW) did not
have any "crafty clone." While I agree with Tim that if it is modified
substantially, it should be allowed to play, I'd at least like to see the
ICCA confirm this. I released the source for Crafty for this reason, so
that others would have a good "starting point." However, without a lot of
caution, this will distort chess tournament results. Naturally I'd like
to see "crafty" win, but barring that, "crafty-clone" is my second choice.
I don't think that's completely fair.
Just got email from Tom about what's going on in Jakarta. First, my guess
above was wrong. What he did was to enter the time control as
30/1/40/1, unfortunately that "1" is minutes and not hours. What
happened was that after about 10 moves, crafty "flagged" and went over
on time. I use unsigned ints, so that when time became less than zero,
it really became a "huge" number, which made this happen.
In round 2, crafty beat fritz in what tom called a "very exciting game"
which sounds like tactical fireworks. It then had to outplay Centaur in
an endgame that was fairly even to win (again, Tom's words were nice endgame
win), and then it beat Comet in what Tom called " very speculative opening"
which sounds like crafty played some sort of gambit.
So, current score for Crafty is 3 wins, 1 loss. Sorry, but I have no other
results, and the web site I posted here yesterday *still* has not been
updated, it thinks round 2 is still half-completed. :( Looks like Chris
was right about slow updates. :)
Bob
> I was told (by a little bird, again), that the ICCA were trying to
> get Junior in to play by ICC, last weekend.
>
> The ICCA line over Junior was that Junior could have gone to
> Indonesia if the Israelis had tried hard enough to get in.
>
> Ie. that the Junior team was not going through their own fault.
>
> If they've now been persuaded to play by ICC/Internet, then this
> option should presumably have been open to other participants.
> Except that it wasn't.
>
> Something seems not right.
>
Junior will not be playing in the WMCCC. It is true that the ICCA
invited us to play through the Internet, and we intended to take this
up, but finally found this technically not feasible. Due to
communication problems with Jakarta, they did not know of this until the
end of the first day, although David Levy in London knew this before the
start of the tournament.
We asked the ICCA to extend the invitation to all the teams that
withdrew. They did not want to do that.
About the visa problem: The ICCA asked us to make a joint statement on
this, but at the end we could not agree on its wording. It is true
that Indonesia does not in general give visas to Israelis, and the ICCA
got a report in August that we won't get one. Much happened later, and
the details are unimportant, but we learned that with some "pull" we had
good chances of getting a visa. This "pull" was not generated, and the
details are tedious, but at some point the ICCA's opinion was that there
was no visa problem in the first place . I don't know if they still
think this way, but we don't agree with that. About not trying hard
enough, we tried hard enough to become experts in Israeli-Indonesian
relations.
Amir Ban
>hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>>Here's some interesting info from the WMCCC in Jakarta. First, you should
>>be able to get some round-by-round results from the following, but I can't
>>connect to either of them (I get no DNS entry for either one)...
>> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/uiterwyk/icca_j.toc.htm
>> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca/iccainfo.htm
>>I suspect that the "htm" should be "html"...
>>One interesting bit of news is that Junior is playing, or at least is
>>supposed to be playing. They are running over the internet somehow,
>>maybe on ICC, I don't know. I spent an hour last nite trying to reach
>>Shay by phone, but couldn't get into Israel... they were having problems
>>connecting and Marsland couldn't get a call out of Indonesia, but we
>>could chat on ICC, however I couldn't get into Israel. I gave up around
>>12 midnite.
>>no results of any kind, although I suspect Crafty lost round 1. Somehow
>>the time got blasted and it was trying to use about 40 minutes per move,
>>probably an operator typo I suspect, so after the first long search it
>>was corrected, but had to play blitz the rest of the game. No word on
>>the outcome, game was even at time I left.
>>Ferret's machine got lost, and had not reached the site at the start
>>of the first round. They were delaying until it showed up, but at
>>midnite (3 hours late) it had not arrived.
>>There are two Crafty programs there, mine, and 9.31 entered by the
>>Indonesians. This is something that seems wrong to me and I'll take
>>it up with the ICCA later, as this was discussed at length and I
>>thought it was clear that Crafty is Crafty, period. Makes little
>>sense to have two...
>>More as I get results. If anyone can connect to the above sites, try
>>to do so and post results if you find any...
>>Bob
>The information is on http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwijk/14wmccc.htm
>You find that page also if you go to http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca
>There are also some games on the WWW page
>Kees van Iersel
>kvie...@worldaccess.nl
> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/uiterwyk/icca_j.toc.htm
> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca/iccainfo.htm
You fin that page also if you go to http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca
There also some gameson WWW page
Kees van Iersel
kvie...@worldaccess.nl
round 4:
..
Ananse-Fritz 0-1
How poor for Ananse: 0 out of 3
round 4:
..
Gandalf-Schach 1-0
..
Another deep-no-kwowledge searcher killed by Gandalf!
Knowledge works!
Vincent Diepeveen
--
+--------------------------------------+
|| email : vdie...@cs.ruu.nl ||
|| Vincent Diepeveen ||
+======================================+
Rank Program Country Operator points
4 VIRTUAL CHESS 2 (France) Tang; Pascal 4.0
10 SHREDDER (Germany) Meyer-Kahlen; Stefan 3.5
2 FERRET (USA) Moreland; Bruce 3.0
5 DARK THOUGHT (Germany) Gille; Markus 3.0
6 CRAFTY (USA) Crain; Tom 3.0
11 Gunda (Indonesia) Liu; Dede & Suhendra 3.0
17 ZEUS 3.1 (Spain) Castano-Recio; Gerardo 3.0
26 WOODPUSHER (England) Hamlen ; John 3.0
25 HEUREKA (Germany) Fischer; Gerold 2.5
1 FRITZ (Europe) Morsch; Frans 2.0
3 NIMZO-3 (Austria) Weigel; Helmut 2.0
8 GANDALF X (Denmark) Suurballe; Steen 2.0
13 CENTAUR (Russia) Vikhrev; Victor 2.0
14 EUGEN 7 (Spain) Jimenez; Eugenio 2.0
16 COMET (Germany) Hettler; Wolfgang 2.0
20 BREAKTHROUGH II (Germany) Koch; Werner 2.0
21 NIGHTMARE (Germany) Gellner; Reinhold 2.0
24 FRANCESCA (England) King; Tom 2.0
27 INTERCHESS (Germany) Borgstaedt; Michael 2.0
18 PATZER (Germany) Pfister; Roland 1.5
19 THE TURK (Canada) Bjornsson; Yngvi 1.5
9 SCHACH 3 (Germany) Mayer; Monika 1.0
12 ISICHESS 2.5 (Germany) Isenberg; Gerd 1.0
23 DIOGENES 2.0 (Germany) Burwitz; Joerg 1.0
28 ANANSE (Switzerland) Bannerman; Walter 1.0
15 XXXX 2.0 (Germany) Zentner; Martin .5
7 JUNIOR (Israel) Internet 0.0??
--------------------------------
Round 1
Fritz Gandalf 0-1
Schach Ferret =-=
Nimzo Shredder =-=
Centaur Virtual Chess 0-1
Dark Thought Isischess 1-0
Gunda Crafty 1-0
Junior Eugen 0-1 (default)
Pandix XXXX =-=
Comet Diogenes 1-0
Francesca Zeus 0-1
Patzer Heureka 1-0
Woodpusher The Turk 1-0
Breakthrough Interchess 1-0
Ananse Nightmare 0-1
--------------------------------
Round 2
Virtual Chess Dark Thought 1-0
Gandalf Gunda 0-1
Eugen Comet =-=
Ferret Nimzo 1-0
Shredder Schach 1-0
Crafty Fritz 1-0
Isichess Centaur 0-1
Zeus Patzer 1-0
Nightmare Breakthrough 0-1
XXXX Woodpusher 0-1
The Turk Pandix 0-1
Diogenes Francesca 0-1
Heureka Ananse 1-0
Interchess Bye 1-0
--------------------------------
Round 3
Gunda Virtual Chess 0-1
Comet Ferret =-=
Shredder Eugen 1-0
Dark Thought Gandalf 1-0
Centaur Crafty 0-1
Schach Nimzo =-=
Fritz Isichess 1-0
Breakthrough Zeus 0-1
pandix Woodpusher 0-1
Patzer Nightmare 0-1
Francesca Heureka =-=
Interchess XXXX 1-0
The Turk Diogenes =-=
Ananse Bye 1-0
--------------------------------
Round 4
Woodpusher Virtual Chess 0-1
Zeus Shredder 0-1
Ferret Breakthrough 1-0
Nightmare Dark Thought 0-1
Crafty Comet 1-0
Interchess Gunda 0-1
Eugen Francesca =-=
Heureka Pandix 1-0
Ananse Fritz 0-1
Nimzo Centaur 1-0
Gandalf Schach 1-0
Diogenes Patzer =-=
XXXX The Turk 0-1
Isichess Bye 1-0
Yup, its a lot of work.
The only way is to have one person allocated to this task and
nothing else.
Or, just generate all the PGN's at the end of each round and post them
all as text (to rgcc). that way we can work it out ourselves.
There is a tendency (Paderborn and AEGON) to make a web page
for every game and update each. This takes ages and falls apart
through lack of human resources.
I kept asking for PGN's in one file, but nobody listens :)
CHris Whittington
>
> Bob
>
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwyk/ICCA_J.toc.htm
^^^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl:80/icca/iccainfo.htm
^^^^^^^
(the domain-name has been changed recently)
Nut no info on Jakarta.
Dennis.
>hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>> Fritz Gandalf 0-1
I have a version of Gandalf (from Jan Louwman to autoplay it).
Gandalf is tactically very weak, but positionally it plays quite well,
in fact i think its evaluation is very good especially compared to
commercial programs.
A major drawback is the depth it searches on: 4/5 ply, which is not
enough to meet the world top. Fritz is of course an exception. Fritz
has so many drawbacks, and only 1 great advantage (tactics).
>Another killer book ? :)
Not a killerbook: 1.a3 is already enough.. :)
Diep has much troubles with Fritz3. However Diep beats Fritz2 by sometimes
100%. Diep's openingsbook sucks, so Diep doesn't win because of book.
Diep does however win because it doesn't give away a piece that easily...
...like it does against Fritz3... :)
I guess this has happened with Gandalf. Its evaluation function is definitely
better than Fritz's, and in this game i guess there was no tactical joke
for Fritz.
>Gandalf smashed Hiarcs last time in such a way.
>Gandalf is a very selective and speculative program - it also
>beat CSTal at Paderborn after 120 moves.
>But when I set up CSTal against it on autoplayer some weeks ago
>the result was 17-3 to CSTal. Gandalf has a relatively low
>SSDF rating, but it is a program with a killer punch at times, it
>seems.
Sometimes you don't fall into a trick.
>Chris Whittington
>> Schach Ferret delay
>> Nimzo Schredder =-=
>> Centaur Virtual Chess 0-1
>> Dark Thought Isischess 1-0
>> Gunda 1 Crafty 1-0
Indonesian opening mips? :)
>This is typical ICCA, and a good idea. Put the two 'identicals'
>on together first, so that there is no possibility of 'arranging'
>the result of a later game.
>> Junior bye
>> Pandix XXXX =-=
XXXX?
Can't this guy write?
>> Comet Diogenes 1-0
>> Francesca Zeus 0-1
>> Patzer Heureka 1-0
>> Woodpusher The Turk 1-0
>> Breakthrough Interchess 1-0
>> Ananse Nightmare 0-1
>chuckle, chuckle, no points yet for Ananse. Will the habit of
>a lifetime be broken, one wonders :)
Wanna bet with me Chris about how many points ananse is gonna make?
I bet 0. Ananse has at maximum an elorating of 1600... ...if it's not hung :)
>> Gunda 1 is crafty 9.31, with some (unknown as to what) modifications
>> made by the Indonesians. It is also running on a P6/200, as are most
>> of the competitors it seems.
>>
>> More after the next round... here's some "partial" round 2 scores from
>> games already completed...
>>
>> Virtual Chess Dark Thought
>> Gandalf Gunda
>> Eugen Comet
>> Ferret Nimzo 1-0
>
>Nice result for Bruce
>
>> Schredder Schach
>> Crafty Fritz
>> Isichess Centaur 0-1
>> Zeus Patzer 1-0
>> Nightmare Breakthrough
>> XXXX Woodpusher 0-1
>> The Turk Pandix
>> Diogenes Francesca
>> Heurika Ananse
>> Interchess Bye
>
>And still no Junior. Fingering on 'ban' (Junior on ICC) gives
>the last time connected at 02.00 Monday GMT.
>
>Are they going to play,or are they on something other than ICC ?
>
>Chris Whittington
>
>>
>>
>> BTW, this is all avalable from
>>
>> http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwyk/14wmccc.htm
>>
>> via netscape...
>>
>> In any case, *not* an auspicious start for the "home team."
>>
>> :(
>>
>> Bob
> The information is on http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwijk/14wmccc.htm
No it's on http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwyk/14wmccc.htm
^
Dennis.
Surprising how Fritz and Nimzo are only on 50%, probably they'll come
up from behind, although this could be hard for them since they've
already both played some strong opposition and lost.
It may be that, since this is an 11 round Swiss, that the best
programs will all have played each other by round 6 or 7.
So either the result will be clear by then, or will depend on
some 'out of order' results against the weaker programs.
Chris Whittington
Basically it means this will be a "bloodbath"... that a "swiss gambit" (such
as crafty's first round loss) means *nothing* other than one less point in the
overall total. I'll try to compile the standings after each round. Will be
interesting to see if things stabilize, or if they continue to shift around
through 11 rounds, when all the strong programs have played each other by
just over the midway point. Note that Fritz and Nimzo have played some good
opponents, and, as a result, might not lose many more games. I don't know
anything about Comet and Centaur, but would Suspect that Crafty still has
a long way to go to do well. It's still got Ferret, Virtual Chess, Nimzo,
and several others (Dark Thought is one that comes to mind, don't know if
they got their 400mhz alpha or not, if so, hmmm...) Will be interesting to
watch...
Bob
:I agree here. I'd much rather be operating crafty myself to take
:care of odd events, rather than trying to anticipate what can and
:will go wrong, and try to provide Tom with a "guide" to digging
:out after a bomb goes off.
:I'm already "restless" about this event, now with two copies of Crafty
:playing, I'm "antsy" and getting worse. I wonder if we will one day
:have an event where 90% of the players are crafty versions? :)
Put lost Crafty games in the opening book?
It will be at least good for a 90% score :)
It's not meant funny only, in fact it happens all the time.
:Bob
Just to make you more unhappy...
1) Suppose a Crafty clone becomes stronger than the REAL Crafty?
2) Suppose the Indonesian clone end up higher than Crafty?
Did you know that a Crafty clone was participating?
It would decent if the "author?" would have informed you.
Did he?
- Ed -
-Peter Schreiner
Who is 'they' ? And what gives 'they' the right to decide
such things ?
If such a decision had been opened up to the ICCA members, I think
it very likely that a vote would be to extend to withdrawn teams
and possibly also amateur teams without airflight funding.
Smacks of too much arbitary decision making to me.
Chris Whittington
>
> About the visa problem: The ICCA asked us to make a joint statement on
> this, but at the end we could not agree on its wording. It is true
> that Indonesia does not in general give visas to Israelis, and the ICCA
> got a report in August that we won't get one. Much happened later, and
> the details are unimportant, but we learned that with some "pull" we had
> good chances of getting a visa. This "pull" was not generated, and the
> details are tedious, but at some point the ICCA's opinion was that there
> was no visa problem in the first place . I don't know if they still
> think this way, but we don't agree with that.
If that is still their view then they have zero justification in
asking you guys to play over the net, because, if that is their view
there can be no difference between Junior and any other applicant.
Therefore Junior should not be treated different.
Since Junior was treated different, then that can't be the ICCA view.
In that case they would need to retract their allegation/accusation
that CSTal withdrawal was without merit. Fat chance they'll do that.
Fine mess they've got themselves into. Some prior consultation with
interested parties (or even some democracy) would have been
in order.
Chris Whittington
May well happen one day. Isn't "zarkov" a derivative of gnuchess
from a good while back? Much stronger than gnu now of course...
:
: 2) Suppose the Indonesian clone end up higher than Crafty?
Then I'll take credit for that one instead? :)
Just kidding of course... :)
:
: Did you know that a Crafty clone was participating?
No. In fact, early on, I had hoped the Indonesians would enter crafty
instead of me. I sent several messages, even had Levy prompt them, but
nothing ever happened. I finally entered Crafty myself and worked on
having someone operate for me. When first asked about them entering
crafty, I was interested since I didn't particularly want to visit the
other side of the planet. :) However, I did discuss the issue of two
programs with David/Tony at one point, told them it was a bad idea, and
that I'd rather the Indonesians enter the one and only Crafty for me.
Just didn't work out. However, if it is substantially different, I have
no complaint. If it's 9.31, more or less, then I do have a big problem
with it...
: It would decent if the "author?" would have informed you.
: Did he?
Nope. In fact, the list posted by David Levy here (while the discussion
about Junior was going on hot and heavy) did not have such a program on
there. Seems odd, but so does a lot of things. Doubt it will be the last
"odd" thing. I plan on studying the pairings as well. Since they don't use
"accelerated pairings" I'm still trying to figure out how the #1 seed plays
the #6 seed in the second round. I'm going to manually take the results and
pair them myself, I just hope it's logical...
When I receive new results, they will be added. Also the games whenever
possible. Unfortunately I don't have time to reformat the games, so I just put
them on the pages as received (i.e., in a variety of formats). Of course,
when real mistakes occur, please notify me and I will correct them.
Jos Uiterwijk
BTW: most of the games of the 5th round are added.
I forgot to add my Email: uite...@cs.unimaas.nl
>
> Jos Uiterwijk
>
> BTW: most of the games of the 5th round are added.
Note: Due to the often occurring error in my name (uiterwijk or uiterwyk)
BOTH names should work from now on, both in my email address and my WEB pages.
--
-----------------------------------------------------
__ __ _ Jos W.H.M. Uiterwijk
/ / / \ / \ Department of Computer Science
/ / / \ Universiteit Maastricht
\_/ \__/ \_/ Maastricht, The Netherlands
uite...@cs.unimaas.nl
tel: +31-43-3883490
fax: +31-43-3252392
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwijk/
PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW MAIL AND WEB SERVER:
old server: cs.rulimburg.nl
new server: cs.unimaas.nl
-----------------------------------------------------
Insofar as any rules exist at all, they are:
1. Only a member of a programming team can enter a program.
2. Multiple entries of the same program are not allowed.
From 1. Bob really ought to have been involved in the process
of entry/permission etc. Particularly as he had already made his view
clear.
From 2. looks like this rule is directly breached. Its purpose
was to prevent 4 Mephistos or 4 Fidelity's from entering and then
the manufacturor claiming the result of the best one. Despite Bob's
jokes about this, it is now clearly an option for him (no offence
meant here, but this just shouldn't be happening).
Sonething is wrong.
Chris Whittington
Only results so far is in round 5, crafty beat woodpusher, and in round
6, crafty beat eugen 7 in what Tom called a wild tactical melee, this
game apparently lasted only 20 moves... :)
Bob
Thanks for doing this. As the saying goes, "Inquiring minds want to
know..." :) I'm certainly "inquiring". :)
Here's results after round 5, with partial 6th round results, taken directly
from the above web site:
Ranking of round 5 of THE XIV WORLD MICROCOMPUTER CHESS CHAMP. 1996
No. PNo. Name Score WP SB PS rat. TPR W-We
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. 9 SHREDDER 4.5 13.5 12.25 12.5 0000 - 0
2. 2 FERRET 4.0 12.5 10.25 11.0 0000 - 0
4 VIRTUAL CHESS-2 4.0 16.5 12.00 14.0 0000 - 0
5 DARK THOUGHT 4.0 13.5 9.50 11.0 0000 - 0
6 CRAFTY 4.0 14.0 11.00 10.0 0000 - 0
6. 1 FRITZ 3.0 11.5 4.50 6.0 0000 - 0
7 GANDALF-X 3.0 13.5 6.50 8.0 0000 - 0
10 GUNDA-1 3.0 16.5 8.50 11.0 0000 - 0
13 EUGEN-7 3.0 14.0 5.75 9.0 0000 - 0
15 COMET 3.0 13.0 5.75 9.5 0000 - 0
16 ZEUS 3.1 3.0 14.5 6.00 12.0 0000 - 0
25 WOODPUSHER 3.0 14.0 6.00 12.0 0000 - 0
13. 3 NIMZO-3 2.5 14.5 6.25 6.5 0000 - 0
18 THE TURK 2.5 9.0 3.50 4.5 0000 - 0
19 BREAKTHROUGH II 2.5 13.0 4.75 9.5 0000 - 0
24 HEUREKA 2.5 9.0 3.50 7.5 0000 - 0
17. 11 ISICHESS 2.5 2.0 11.5 1.75 3.0 0000 - 0
12 CENTAUR 2.0 12.5 2.00 5.0 0000 - 0
20 NIGHTMARE 2.0 11.0 2.00 8.0 0000 - 0
21 PANDIX 2.0 11.0 4.00 7.0 0000 - 0
23 FRANCESCA 2.0 12.0 3.50 6.5 0000 - 0
26 INTERCHESS 2.0 11.5 2.25 7.0 0000 - 0
23. 8 SCHACH-3 1.5 16.0 4.25 4.5 0000 - 0
14 XXXX 2.0 1.5 11.0 3.00 3.5 0000 - 0
17 PATZER 1.5 11.0 3.00 6.0 0000 - 0
26. 22 DIOGENES 3.0 1.0 10.5 2.00 2.5 0000 - 0
27 ANANSE 1.0 10.0 0.25 3.0 0000 - 0
28. 28 JUNIOR 0.0 9.5 4.00 0.0 0000 - 0
Round 6
Shredder Dark Thought 1-0
Ferret Virtual Chess
Crafty Eugen 1-0
Comet Fritz
Gandalf Woodpusher
Zeus Gunda
Nimzo Heureka
The Turk Breakthrough
Isichess Pandix =-=
Francesca Centaur
Interchess Nightmare 1-0
XXXX Patzer
Schach Ananse
Diogenese Bye (Junior)
Centaur-Ananse 1-0
Patzer-The Turk 0-1
Isichess 2.5-Diogenes 3.0 1-0
Comet-Interchess 1-0
Fritz-Heureka 1-0
Gunda 1-Ferret 0-1
Virtual Chess 2-Shredder 0-1
Nightmare-Eugen 7 0-1
Dark Thought-Zeus 3.1 1-0
Breakthrough-Nimzo 3 0.5-0.5
Woodpusher-Crafty 0-1
Francesca-Gandalf X 0-1
No results for Pandix, Schach 3 or XXXX 2.0.
NO PNO. NAME SCORE
1 9 SHREDDER 4.5
2 4 VIRTUAL CHESS-2 4.0
2 FERRET 4.0
5 DARK THOUGHT 4.0
6 CRAFTY 4.0
6 10 GUNDA-1 3.0
16 ZEUS 3.1 3.0
25 WOODPUSHER 3.0
15 COMET 3.0
1 FRITZ 3.0
7 GANDALF-X 3.0
13 EUGEN-7 3.0
13 3 NIMZO-3 2.5
19 BREAKTHRUOUGH 2.5
24 HEUREKA 2.5
18 THE TURK 2.5
17 20 NIGHTMARE 2.0
23 FRANCESCA 2.0
26 INTERCHESS 2.0
11 ISICHESS 2.5 2.0
12 CENTAUR 2.0
22 17 PATZER 1.5
21 PANDIX 1.5
24 8 SCHACH-3 1.0
22 DIOGENES 3.0 1.0
27 ANANSE 1.0
27 14 XXXX 2.0 0.5
I agree. In fact I was involved, but nothing happened, so I entered
crafty myself.
:
: From 2. looks like this rule is directly breached. Its purpose
: was to prevent 4 Mephistos or 4 Fidelity's from entering and then
: the manufacturor claiming the result of the best one. Despite Bob's
: jokes about this, it is now clearly an option for him (no offence
: meant here, but this just shouldn't be happening).
The real issue now is just what is "Gunda 1"... IE, if I were to do the
following:
cat crafty/*.c >myc
cat gunda/*.c >theirc
diff myc theirc
would I get a few lines, or a few thousand lines that are different/new/
deleted? Needs resolving.
I also agree with Chris about the ambiguity here. It shouldn't happen
in an event this "big"...
:
: Sonething is wrong.
:
: Chris Whittington
:
:
So what else is new? :)
> Here's some interesting info from the WMCCC in Jakarta. First, you should
> be able to get some round-by-round results from the following, but I can't
> connect to either of them (I get no DNS entry for either one)...
>
It works from here, now, and i remember being at that site before.
> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/uiterwyk/icca_j.toc.htm
> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca/iccainfo.htm
>
> I suspect that the "htm" should be "html"...
>
"htm" works fine.
> One interesting bit of news is that Junior is playing, or at least is
> supposed to be playing. They are running over the internet somehow,
> maybe on ICC, I don't know. I spent an hour last nite trying to reach
> Shay by phone, but couldn't get into Israel... they were having problems
> connecting and Marsland couldn't get a call out of Indonesia, but we
> could chat on ICC, however I couldn't get into Israel. I gave up around
> 12 midnite.
>
> no results of any kind, although I suspect Crafty lost round 1. Somehow
> the time got blasted and it was trying to use about 40 minutes per move,
> probably an operator typo I suspect, so after the first long search it
> was corrected, but had to play blitz the rest of the game. No word on
> the outcome, game was even at time I left.
>
> Ferret's machine got lost, and had not reached the site at the start
> of the first round. They were delaying until it showed up, but at
> midnite (3 hours late) it had not arrived.
>
> There are two Crafty programs there, mine, and 9.31 entered by the
> Indonesians. This is something that seems wrong to me and I'll take
> it up with the ICCA later, as this was discussed at length and I
> thought it was clear that Crafty is Crafty, period. Makes little
> sense to have two...
>
> More as I get results. If anyone can connect to the above sites, try
> to do so and post results if you find any...
>
> Bob
Cheers!
--
Carsten Kossendey (carsten....@nrw-online.de)
"Life is too short for the game of chess"
- Lord Henry Byron
Hi Bob,
After trying I succeeded with
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~uiterwyk/14wmccc.htm
--
Yours Dirk
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> schrieb im Beitrag
<53dofh$d...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>...
> Here's some interesting info from the WMCCC in Jakarta. First, you
should
> be able to get some round-by-round results from the following, but I
can't
> connect to either of them (I get no DNS entry for either one)...
>
> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/uiterwyk/icca_j.toc.htm
> http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/icca/iccainfo.htm
>
> I suspect that the "htm" should be "html"...
>
Standings after Round 5
>The real issue now is just what is "Gunda 1"... IE, if I were to do the
>following:
>
>cat crafty/*.c >myc
>cat gunda/*.c >theirc
>diff myc theirc
>
>would I get a few lines, or a few thousand lines that are different/new/
>deleted? Needs resolving.
I don't know...
One can make just a very few changes and yet change the
resulting program VERY much.
Personally, it doesn't bother me too much. Crafty is
freeware and doesn't have a whole lot to gain by having
more than one program entered (well, except maybe to
cause a swelling of Bob's head if one of them win... :).
If Bob was doing this to make money, then he would have
more to gain and it would maybe bother me a little more.
But then, he likely wouldn't be giving away the source
code either.
Still, I hope the REAL crafty finishes better than the
OTHER one. In fact, I hope crafty finishes on TOP if
them ALL!
GO CRAFTY! :)
dan
Bob, there is a difference: Stanback is the author of both early
GNUchess and Zarkov, so he can do what he likes with his work.
But you should think about a license for Crafty, I suggest the GPL,
so that improvements made by others will benefit the whole chess
programming community.
> Just didn't work out. However, if it is substantially different, I have
> no complaint. If it's 9.31, more or less, then I do have a big problem
> with it...
It is copyright infringement, to say it clearly. Did Indonesia sign
the Berne convention?
ralf
--
Lynx-enhanced pages at http://www.bayreuth-online.de/~stephan
If they have, they'll probably ignore it, just like that other
convention from Geneva.
Chris Whittington
Is it? Crafty comes with a license which says:
# All rights reserved. No part of this program may be reproduced
# in any form or by any means, for any commercial (for profit/sale)
# reasons. This program may be freely distributed, used, and
# modified, so long as such use does not in any way result in the
# sale of all or any part of the source, the executables, or other
# distributed materials that are a part of this package.
As far as I know, the Indonesian team has not sold the modified
Crafty in any way, so they seem to respect these conditions. I
don't know about the rules for the WMCCC, though.
I agree that GPL is a good way to ensure modified source code stays
"in the open", if this is what the author wants. Unlike the
present license, GPL allows commercial use, but with conditions
which favor the users more than usual (e.g. users must be given
source code and the right to modify it, as well as share copies of
the original or derivative work with others.)
--
Rickard Westman | "Beware of the panacea peddlers:
Dept. of Computer Science | Just because you wind up naked
Linköping University | doesn't make you an emperor."
Sweden | - Michael A Padlipsky
> Is it? Crafty comes with a license which says:
You are right. I didn't do my homework. I'll weaken the above
and state only that it's immoral to use Crafty code for interesting
purposes like WMCCC without consulting with the author.
> >There are two Crafty programs there, mine, and 9.31 entered by the
> >Indonesians. This is something that seems wrong to me and I'll take
> >it up with the ICCA later, as this was discussed at length and I
> >thought it was clear that Crafty is Crafty, period. Makes little
> >sense to have two...
My understanding is that there was an imperfect flow of information between, Hyatt, the
Indonesians who modified Crafty, the Indonesians who organized the tournament, and the
ICCA, and by the time this became clear to everyone it was too late to find a fully
satisfactory solution.
bruce
Neither was "Pandix". It sounds like it was something of a mess,
but I don't believe that anyone had evil intent. There was just a
lot of confusion, and people compromised and accomodated each other.
bruce
Tim Mirabile <t...@mail.htp.com> wrote in article
<325c1ee7...@snews2.zippo.com>...
> hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>
> >Mike (ches...@voicenet.com) wrote:
> >:
> >: >
> >: > Fritz Gandalf 0-1
> >: > Schach Ferret delay
> >: > Nimzo Schredder =-=
> >: > Centaur Virtual Chess 0-1
> >: > Dark Thought Isischess 1-0
> >: > Gunda 1 Crafty 1-0
> >: > Junior bye
> >: > Pandix XXXX =-=
> >: > Comet Diogenes 1-0
> >: > Francesca Zeus 0-1
> >: > Patzer Heureka 1-0
> >: > Woodpusher The Turk 1-0
> >: > Breakthrough Interchess 1-0
> >: > Ananse Nightmare 0-1
> >: >
> >: >
> >: > Gunda 1 is crafty 9.31, with some (unknown as to what) modifications
> >: > made by the Indonesians. It is also running on a P6/200, as are
most
> >: > of the competitors it seems.
>
> >: that is just wrong! by the sponsors ..you end playing a program you
> >: programed..ugh... Bob, it's good thing I was not there ..I would have
> >: forfeited the game rather than engage in a crafty vs crafty game ,,I
don't
> >: believe it... I would have guessed that only the *authors* should have
> >: been allowed to enter their programs...what was to stop somebody from
> >: entering Rebel8 , MCPro-5 etc..., this is dead wrong!
> >
> >I agree. However, I'm reluctant to make a big case about this, because
> >there are lots of people visiting Jakarta that I'd like to call friends.
> >Angering anyone can only hurt the ones over there, as they have to get
> >their machines back thru customs, etc... I did think that there was a
> >"one program one author" rule... apparently not however...
>
> Perhaps they modified it enough to be considered a separate program.
Whatever they did with it, Bob (as original programmer) should have been
(a) informed and (b) asked whether it could be entered.
This has manifestly not happened.
Chris Whittington
>
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Tim Mirabile <t...@mail.htp.com> http://www.angelfire.com/pg9/timm/ |
> | TimM on FICS - telnet://fics.onenet.net:5000/ PGP Key ID: B7CE30D1 |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote in article
<53eprv$r...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>...
> : > Gunda 1 is crafty 9.31, with some (unknown as to what) modifications
> : > made by the Indonesians. It is also running on a P6/200, as are most
> : > of the competitors it seems.
> : >
> :
> :
> : that is just wrong! by the sponsors ..you end playing a program you
> : programed..ugh... Bob, it's good thing I was not there ..I would have
> : forfeited the game rather than engage in a crafty vs crafty game ,,I
don't
> : believe it... I would have guessed that only the *authors* should have
> : been allowed to enter their programs...what was to stop somebody from
> : entering Rebel8 , MCPro-5 etc..., this is dead wrong!
>
> I agree. However, I'm reluctant to make a big case about this, because
> there are lots of people visiting Jakarta that I'd like to call friends.
> Angering anyone can only hurt the ones over there, as they have to get
> their machines back thru customs, etc... I did think that there was a
> "one program one author" rule... apparently not however...
>
>
This goes to he heart of my (sorry if they're endless) objections to the
way
the ICCA is run.
There *are* rules.
One rule is 'only the programmer can enter a program'
Another rule is 'only one version of the program'
But there's another rule: 'we can do anything we like' - and they do.
In this case they're presumably being nice to the sponsors.
Personally I find this type of anarchic situation completely intolerable.
The result
is that no one knows where thay stand. Large organisations with many
disparate
members must have a declared rule set that is stuck to. If not they open
themselves
to the charge that they are undemocratic, unaccountable, and run as the
personal
fiefdom of one or two people.
Serious changes in the way this organisation operates are called for.
Chris Whittington
>
Here is my understanding of what happened.
At one point Bob wasn't going to go, so he gave permission to the Indonesians to
modify Crafty and enter it. When they didn't maintain contact with him he assumed
their effort had derailed and entered Crafty himself. That they in fact showed up in
Jakarta came as something of a surprise.
I missed the player's meeting, but apparently this situation was discussed, and
approved, by those who attended. I do not know if there was any dissent, but nobody
came up to me during the tournament and said, "this sucks", I got the feeling that any
grumbling about it was at a low level, or that people basically didn't care, or that
they agreed with the ruling.
To bar Bob's version of Crafty from competing would have disappointed Bob, the
operator (Tom Crain), and Bob's sponsors. To bar the Indonesian version from
competing would have wasted the effort of the Indonesian team, and would have been
something of an affront to the tournament sponsors, and a drain on any interest
generated in the local press, which is contrary to one of the purposes of this
tournament, which is to generate interest in computer chess in a part of the world
that has no home-grown programs.
You bet they were being nice to the sponsors. If Gunda had come from Germany there
may very well have been a different decision, seeing as there were something like
thirteen German programs competing already. Personally, I agreed (with obvious
reservations) with the decision to allow both to compete, this seemed to be the best
compromise solution.
The programs were deliberately paired in the first round, and it was supposed to be
the rule that if you played one of them you didn't have to play the other, but after
approximately round 4 I argued successfully that they be considered independent
entries from that point forth. There hadn't been any problem with pairings up until
that point, but it was obvious to me that the Crafty's were going to start getting
easier pairings as they ran out of tough programs to compete with.
On the morning the tournament started, I contacted Bob via the ICC and told him what
was going on. If he had wanted to object or otherwise raise cain over this, the line
was open to Marlsand and Van den Herik. I was also willing to help by complaining in
person, but I'm not sure this point reached Bob.
I feel that if anyone wanted to strenuously object, that the objection would have been
considered properly. Both Marsland and Van den Herik appeared to me to be open to
reason, if you had a good argument about something you might get your way. I simply
heard nothing to indicate that anyone strenuously objected.
I don't see any reason to pound on this organization, you may not agree with
everything they do, but I don't see any evil intent on their part. If anyone who was
at that player's meeting would like to clarify events, I would be interested in
hearing what actually took place.
I'm still not sure why you want to wreck the ICCA, Chris. Who is the organization
improperly serving?
bruce
ICCA member
(SNIP)
>> >I agree. However, I'm reluctant to make a big case about this,
because there are lots of people visiting Jakarta that I'd like to call
friends. Angering anyone can only hurt the ones over there, as they
have to get their machines back thru customs, etc... I did think that
there was a "one program one author" rule... apparently not however...
>> Perhaps they modified it enough to be considered a separate program.
>Whatever they did with it, Bob (as original programmer) should have
been (a) informed and (b) asked whether it could be entered.
>This has manifestly not happened.
>Chris Whittington
Of course we're talking about a country where software piracy is a way
of life.
Considering that 99% of the software in use in Indonesia is stolen,
perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised that the ICCA -- in allowing a
"borrowed" program to enter the tournament -- bowed to a practice
endemic in the culture, and protected by the Suharto regime.
Often, when you accept the hospitality of dictators, you end up playing
by their rules.
-- garb leon
+----------------------------------------------------------------------