Computerchess Misc (7)
Rolf Tueschen
the endgames?
And I always hear that our "micros" are at best in tactical positions.
Well, here I've a tactical endgame position full of tactics. Look at
this:
Kh1 Qg4 Rg1 Bg7 Pc3 d4 e4 e5 f6 h7 WTM
Kd7 Qc8 Ra6 Rg8 Bb2 Pa7 b7 c4 e6 f7
The last black move was Bb2!
What is White to do? Could he even win?
I wanted to know what you think and what your computers think. It's
not a question of a single move. How this will finished?
All I want to say is that this was a serious tournament game between
two real chessplayers.
Chris Whittington
Rolf Tueschen wrote in message <72qij0$a5g$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
What a terrible mess. The material is almost irrelevent (including making
new queens); somebody is going to get themselves mated.
When I first set it up, I assumed there was a mistake in the position. Isn't
Black's rook enprise to a pawn promotion ? But it looks like white shouldn't
even take the rook. Black's other rook is nice, defends e6 (key square) and
threatens to come down the file and hit the white king. Black's queen is not
well placed; so long as white doesn't put the black queen into play (by
hxg8=Q), then white has some chances. Qh5, threatening f7. Then d5, plan to
activate the white rook onto the c or d files, pressurise the pawns e6 and
f7, and go after the black king. Whilst trying not to let black activate and
start a king attack of its own.
Too complicated :)
Chris Whittington
>
>
bruce moreland
(Rolf Tueschen) wrote:
>Don't middlegame positions inspire our fighting spirit much more than
>the endgames?
>
>And I always hear that our "micros" are at best in tactical positions.
>Well, here I've a tactical endgame position full of tactics. Look at
>this:
>
>
>Kh1 Qg4 Rg1 Bg7 Pc3 d4 e4 e5 f6 h7 WTM
>Kd7 Qc8 Ra6 Rg8 Bb2 Pa7 b7 c4 e6 f7
>
>
>The last black move was Bb2!
>
>What is White to do? Could he even win?
>
>I wanted to know what you think and what your computers think. It's
>not a question of a single move. How this will finished?
>
>All I want to say is that this was a serious tournament game between
>two real chessplayers.
I put my program on this for a few hours and it thought that Qh5 was
pretty hard for black to handle. Qe8 to defend the pawn, then Rb1 and
the rook gets into b7. The line mine came up with didn't seem to lead
to much counterplay for black, but who knows.
bruce
ilias kastanas 08-14-90
Rolf Tueschen <TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de> wrote:
@Don't middlegame positions inspire our fighting spirit much more than
@the endgames?
@
@And I always hear that our "micros" are at best in tactical positions.
@Well, here I've a tactical endgame position full of tactics. Look at
@this:
@
@Kh1 Qg4 Rg1 Bg7 Pc3 d4 e4 e5 f6 h7 WTM
@Kd7 Qc8 Ra6 Rg8 Bb2 Pa7 b7 c4 e6 f7
@
@The last black move was Bb2!
It defends against the possibility 1. Qh5, Qe8 2. h:g8, Q:g8
3. Bh8, Qf8 4. Rg7, by setting up 3... Ra1.
@What is White to do? Could he even win?
After 1. Qh5, Qe8 Bl's K-side is immobilized. If Wh pushes d5,
then d:e6 can only be answered by ...R:e6. To capitalize on this, Wh
plays 2. Rb1, Rb6 and then 3. d5. Now R:b2 is a threat. Bl is paralyzed;
offhand I don't see any defense. E.g. 3... B:c3 4. R:b6, a:b6 5. d:e6+,
f:e6 6. f7
Ilias
Rolf Tueschen
>In article <72qij0$a5g$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>,
>Rolf Tueschen <TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de> wrote:
>@Don't middlegame positions inspire our fighting spirit much more than
>@the endgames?
>@
>@And I always hear that our "micros" are at best in tactical positions.
>@Well, here I've a tactical endgame position full of tactics. Look at
>@this:
>@
>@Kh1 Qg4 Rg1 Bg7 Pc3 d4 e4 e5 f6 h7 WTM
>@Kd7 Qc8 Ra6 Rg8 Bb2 Pa7 b7 c4 e6 f7
>@
>@The last black move was Bb2!
> It defends against the possibility 1. Qh5, Qe8 2. h:g8, Q:g8
>3. Bh8, Qf8 4. Rg7, by setting up 3... Ra1.
You tried to destroy my whole story here. With 4. Kg2 White will win;
at least if I can trust my Fritz. After 3.Bh8 should come Ra1 --
iimediately. Then Black is winning. Point is that 3 Bh8 is NOT the
best move.
>@What is White to do? Could he even win?
> After 1. Qh5, Qe8 Bl's K-side is immobilized. If Wh pushes d5,
>then d:e6 can only be answered by ...R:e6. To capitalize on this, Wh
>plays 2. Rb1, Rb6 and then 3. d5. Now R:b2 is a threat. Bl is paralyzed;
>offhand I don't see any defense. E.g. 3... B:c3 4. R:b6, a:b6 5. d:e6+,
>f:e6 6. f7
Thanks. I think also the other two experts gave an identical
judgement. No surprise so far under the sky in usenet. People try to
do just the necessary. And our programs are strong enough to find such
plans. Thanks Bruce and Chris too.
Now let me tell you the next part of the story. Perhaps I can motivate
you this time a little bit better. Not that you made wrong conclusions
this time. But you're all so short worded. :)
Think of that. With Bb2 (coming from a3) Black made his last move
before the adjournment. Do you realize the offence? This is a tricky
move. It looks like Black has a totally lost position. Still he gives
White the possibility to find second best moves. And it worked. BTW
the game was played in 1970; so a while before you could go home and
analyse the rest with your machines. I think even a pre-runner of
BELLE or KAISSA? wouldn't have failed in finding the best line, no?
As you might already have thought, White couldn't resist to take this
Rook on g8 and that was surely the third best move.
Now after a week or two the game continued with the expected Qxg8 then
Qh5 Qe8!!. It's clear that Black had analysed the endgame with care.
Now my question again. How should White *win* this game? I promise you
that this time we have a lot more key moves and many different roads
to chooe. Bruce, is FERRET still winning with White? Chris, what does
the mysty + genial CSTal think? And Ilias, are you ready to leave that
deception behind with the immediate win and to seek now for another
solution? Just to confirm you. I was not playing the game on no side.
But I think/thought White should still win here.
P.S.
Would interest me as a former OTB player how programmers prepared
their products to play at the end of a playing session. Do you use
also tricks to leave the risk to your opponent - if possible? Any
anecdotes about the crucial moment in history of cc?
PPS.
Please try to be a little bit more speculative because we've at least
another story to tell. Also here there's not yet the final part.
Rolf Tueschen
TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de (Rolf Tueschen) wrote:
>Now after a week or two the game continued with the expected Qxg8 then
>Qh5 Qe8!!. It's clear that Black had analysed the endgame with care.
Please excuse this error. I mixed up the two stories. At first Qh5 Qe8
was winning for White.
But White played 1.hxg8Q Qxg8
Now its the second move. In the game it was now the 37. move.
And White did not play Qh5 now. If he did, Black wouldn't have played
Qe8.
Please excuse me. I tried to transfer moves and story by heart.
Shouldn't happen again.
ilias kastanas 08-14-90
Rolf Tueschen <TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de> wrote:
@ika...@sol.uucp (ilias kastanas 08-14-90) wrote:
@
@>In article <72qij0$a5g$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>,
@>Rolf Tueschen <TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de> wrote:
@>@
@>@Kh1 Qg4 Rg1 Bg7 Pc3 d4 e4 e5 f6 h7 WTM
@>@
@>@The last black move was Bb2!
@
@> It defends against the possibility 1. Qh5, Qe8 2. h:g8, Q:g8
@>3. Bh8, Qf8 4. Rg7, by setting up 3... Ra1.
@
@You tried to destroy my whole story here. With 4. Kg2 White will win;
@at least if I can trust my Fritz. After 3.Bh8 should come Ra1 --
@iimediately. Then Black is winning. Point is that 3 Bh8 is NOT the
@best move.
I agree; I did say 3... Ra1, right?!
@>@What is White to do? Could he even win?
@
@
@> After 1. Qh5, Qe8 Bl's K-side is immobilized. If Wh pushes d5,
@>then d:e6 can only be answered by ...R:e6. To capitalize on this, Wh
@plays 2. Rb1, Rb6 and then 3. d5. Now R:b2 is a threat. Bl is paralyzed;
@>offhand I don't see any defense. E.g. 3... B:c3 4. R:b6, a:b6 5. d:e6+,
@>f:e6 6. f7
@
@Thanks. I think also the other two experts gave an identical
@judgement. No surprise so far under the sky in usenet. People try to
@do just the necessary. And our programs are strong enough to find such
@plans. Thanks Bruce and Chris too.
@
@Now let me tell you the next part of the story. Perhaps I can motivate
@you this time a little bit better. Not that you made wrong conclusions
@this time. But you're all so short worded. :)
@
@Think of that. With Bb2 (coming from a3) Black made his last move
@before the adjournment. Do you realize the offence? This is a tricky
@move. It looks like Black has a totally lost position. Still he gives
@White the possibility to find second best moves. And it worked. BTW
@the game was played in 1970; so a while before you could go home and
@analyse the rest with your machines. I think even a pre-runner of
@BELLE or KAISSA? wouldn't have failed in finding the best line, no?
@
@As you might already have thought, White couldn't resist to take this
@Rook on g8 and that was surely the third best move.
@
@Now after a week or two the game continued with the expected Qxg8 then
@Qh5 Qe8!!. It's clear that Black had analysed the endgame with care.
@
@
@Now my question again. How should White *win* this game? I promise you
@that this time we have a lot more key moves and many different roads
@to chooe. Bruce, is FERRET still winning with White? Chris, what does
@the mysty + genial CSTal think? And Ilias, are you ready to leave that
@deception behind with the immediate win and to seek now for another
@solution? Just to confirm you. I was not playing the game on no side.
@But I think/thought White should still win here.
Oh, I'm thoroughly disappointed; with 1. h:g8, Q:g8 White
ruined the position. He does not deserve to win!
It seems 2. Kg2 is the best chance. Now 2... B:c3 is
tricky and complex... but why not just 2... Ra1; 3. R:a1, B:a1 4. Qd1
can be answered with 4... Qh7, threatening Q:e4+ with perpetual +.
Ilias