Interesting study about Turkish/Persian dice roll names

[mu...@compuplus.net]

A couple of weeks ago, in a small town of 5,000 in this sparsely populated corner or the states, I met an Assyrian guy who was born and raised in Northern Iraq and who had immigrated to the US in the seventies.

I thought he was happy to meet me firstly as a potential backgammon player from the Middle-East. Sure enough, a few days later we met to play a few games. What surprised me is that he was calling the dice rolls in the mixture of Turkish-Persian expressions as most people did in Turkey.

Personally, I purposefully avoided learning and using those expressions and simply called the numbers as it's done in English and probably in most other languages, as "six-three", "four-one", "double twos", etc. In fact, I haven't even paid attention to call the numbers with the higher one first, as I assume most people do, and half of the time would say "three-six", "one-four", etc.

But, back in Turkey, I always thought that they called the dice numbers by the Persian expressions, with some irregularities in Turkish. I had no idea about how the people in Iraq, Iran, Armenia, Lebanon, etc. called the dice rolls. I sure didn't expect that some if not most of those people would use the same expressions used in Turkey.

I am very much interested in linguistics in general. So, I decided to research this a little bit. I found some Turkish BG sited that listed the expressions used with a few errors and omissions but none offered any rhyme or reason as to why or how they came about.

The best study I could find was in German with a decently comprehensible Google translation to English, at: http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/jg/html/jg1985b.htm

The ones interested can read the entire original or translated article there but let me try to condense it into a few lines here.

The expressions are:

1-1... Hep yek
2-1... İki bir
2-2... Dü Bara
3-1... Se Yek
3-2... Seba i Dü
3-3... Dü Se
4-1... Cehar ı Yek
4-2... Cehar i Dü
4-3... Cehar ü Se
4-4... Dört Cehar
5-1... Penc ü Yek or Beş Bir
5-2... Penc i Dü
5-3... Penc ü Se
5-4... Beş Dört
5-5... Dü Beş
6-1... Şeş Yek
6-2... Şeş i Dü
6-3... Şeş ü Se
6-4... Şeş Cehar or Alti Dört
6-5... Şeş Beş
6-6... Dü Şeş

Of those,

6-6 Dü Şeş, 3-3 Dü Se, 6-1 Şeş Yek and 3-1 Se Yek are "normally" called in Persian, as in "doubles sixes", "double threes", "six-one" and "three-one".

4-1 Cehar ı Yek, 4-2 Cehar ı Dü, 4-3 Cehar ü Se, 5-2 Penc i Dü and 5-3 Penc ü Se are in Persian with the "end" in between as in "four and one", "four and two", "four and three", "five and two", "five and three".

And we have the Persian odd-ball 2-2 Dü Bara, (as I understand meaning "two by two"?).

Now comes in the Turkish expressions.

6-5 Şeş Beş, 5-5 Dü Beş and 4-4 Dört Cehar are made of one number in Turkish and one in Persian, as in "six-five", "double fives", "double fours".

6-4 Alti Dört, 5-4 Beş Dört, 5-1 Beş Bir and 2-1 İki bir are both number in Turkish just as in "six-four", "five-four", "five-one" and "two-one".

And finally we have the Turkish odd-ball 1-1 Hep yek, meaning "all ones".

My newly acquainted Assyrian friend was calling the dice as people do in Turkey with the only exception that he was adding an "e" sound to the "2-1" and saying it as "iki bire".

To cut it short for now, I hope that this will be my little contribution to the past research/study done this intriguing subject and I hope that other readers of RGB will come forward with their comments and contributions...

MK

[badgolferman]

mu...@compuplus.net wrote:

>To cut it short for now, I hope that this will be my little
>contribution to the past research/study done this intriguing subject
>and I hope that other readers of RGB will come forward with their
>comments and contributions...
>
>MK

I learned to play in Iran and recognize many of those numbers you have.
The pronunciation is a bit different in Farsi (Persian) than Turkish,
but I will try to write them phonetically for you.

Original list:

>1-1... Hep yek
>2-1... İki bir
>2-2... Dü Bara
>3-1... Se Yek
>3-2... Seba i Dü
>3-3... Dü Se
>4-1... Cehar ı Yek
>4-2... Cehar i Dü
>4-3... Cehar ü Se
>4-4... Dört Cehar
>5-1... Penc ü Yek or Beş Bir
>5-2... Penc i Dü
>5-3... Penc ü Se
>5-4... Beş Dört
>5-5... Dü Beş
>6-1... Şeş Yek
>6-2... Şeş i Dü
>6-3... Şeş ü Se
>6-4... Şeş Cehar or Alti Dört
>6-5... Şeş Beş
>6-6... Dü Şeş

Farsi
>1-1... Joft yek (double one)
>2-1... Doe ba Yek (two with one)
>2-2... Joft Doe (double two)
>3-1... Se ba Yek (three with one)
>3-2... Se ba Doe (three with two)
>3-3... Joft Se (double three)
>4-1... Chahar ı Yek (four and one)
>4-2... Chahar i Doe (four and two)
>4-3... Chahar ü Se or Chorse (four and three)
>4-4... Joft Chahar (double four)
>5-1... Panj i Yek (five and one)
>5-2... Panj i Doe (five and two)
>5-3... Panj i Se (five and three)
>5-4... Panj i Chahar (five and four)
>5-5... Joft Panj (double five)
>6-1... Shish i Yek (six and one)
>6-2... Shish i Doe (six and two)
>6-3... Shish i Se (six and three)
>6-4... Shish i Chahar (six and four)
>6-5... Shish i Panj or Shish i Besh (six and five)
>6-6... Joft Shish ( double six)

The only two rolls I am aware of that are called something other than
their number are the 4-3 and 6-5.

The game is called Takhteh. Gammon = Marse. Backgammon = Gharse.

There are some different rules in backgammon played in Iran than the
internationally recognized rules also. For one thing I don't remember
ever playing with the cube. Matches were best of 9 usually. The
winner of each game starts the next game. When hitting in your own
home board, you are not allowed to move the same checker again during
the same roll unless it is left open/uncovered.

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On Monday, June 25, 2012 7:39:03 PM UTC-6, badgolferman wrote:

> I learned to play in Iran and recognize many of those numbers you have.
> The pronunciation is a bit different in Farsi (Persian) than Turkish,
> but I will try to write them phonetically for you.

I am more interested in the words used more than the pronunciations
but thanks for your contribution.

>>1-1... Joft yek (double one)
>>2-1... Doe ba Yek (two with one)
>>2-2... Joft Doe (double two)
>>3-1... Se ba Yek (three with one)
>>3-2... Se ba Doe (three with two)

By these expressions, do you mean how they should be called properly
in Persian or do you mean that in Persia, these expressions are widely
used?

Apparently, the usage of Persian expressions by the Turks was merely
to show off, perhaps like knowing how to call the dice rolls in French
would make them better lovers if not better backgammon players...

So then, let's assume that they mixed and matches Turkish and Persian
numbers based on some combinations being easier to pronounce.

But why the speakers of other Middle-Eastern languages would use the
Turkish mixture rather than purely Persian numbers?

And then we go deeper to ask why Turks and others say "Se ba i Doe"
(three *with and* two) for 3-2?

> The only two rolls I am aware of that are called something other
> than their number are the 4-3 and 6-5.

Let's ignore "Chorse" for a moment (for it's till a Persian oddity),
to underline that the Turkish word "besh" is the only oddity among
your above listed expressions.

Then comes the natural question: "why"?

> The game is called Takhteh. Gammon = Marse. Backgammon = Gharse.

What do "marse" and "gharse" mean? I thought that there was no
"backgammon / gharse" score in traditional backgammon...??

> There are some different rules in backgammon played in Iran than
> the internationally recognized rules also. For one thing I don't
> remember ever playing with the cube.

Backgammon with the cube is really an entirely different game, which
was used to raise interest for backgammon taking advantage of the
support from already well known sick gambling Americans... But this
is a whole different subject.

> Matches were best of 9 usually.

In Turkey, they played best 2 out of 3 matches of 5 points. Or, if
they were short on time, they would play one 7-pointer. I have never
seen anybody play 9-pointers.

> The winner of each game starts the next game.

And the next match, in a series of matches.

> When hitting in your own home board, you are not allowed to move
> the same checker again during the same roll unless it is left
> open/uncovered.

I can't quite understand this but it sound like the Turkish rule that
you have to play the higher number first.

I wish more people would contribute to discussions like this than to
"anally" discuss individual positions and then defer to robots.... :(

MK

[Michael Petch]

On 2012-06-26 05:53, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
>> > When hitting in your own home board, you are not allowed to move
>> > the same checker again during the same roll unless it is left
>> > open/uncovered.

> I can't quite understand this but it sound like the Turkish rule that
> you have to play the higher number first.

Sounds entirely different. Seems that this disallows you hitting and
then moving to safety while in your home. So if you want to hit you have
to leave a blot, no safety plays by moving from the hit to make another
point in your home or to move to an established point you already have

[badgolferman]

Correct. However the second part of the die can cover the blot as
normal. Also, you cannot hit and bear off with the same checker.

[Walt]

Yes, this is a different rule. It is apparently common in the middle
east: You can't pick and pass in your home board.

See this article for some other common local rules:

http://www.bkgm.com/articles/Driver/TwoWorlds/


--
//Walt

[badgolferman]

mu...@compuplus.net wrote:

>On Monday, June 25, 2012 7:39:03 PM UTC-6, badgolferman wrote:
>
>> I learned to play in Iran and recognize many of those numbers you
>>have. The pronunciation is a bit different in Farsi (Persian)
>>than Turkish, but I will try to write them phonetically for you.
>
>I am more interested in the words used more than the pronunciations
>but thanks for your contribution.
>
>>>1-1... Joft yek (double one)
>>>2-1... Doe ba Yek (two with one)
>>>2-2... Joft Doe (double two)
>>>3-1... Se ba Yek (three with one)
>>>3-2... Se ba Doe (three with two)
>
>By these expressions, do you mean how they should be called properly
>in Persian or do you mean that in Persia, these expressions are widely
>used?

Both. That is the way they are properly pronounced and that is the way
they are used for the most part.

>Apparently, the usage of Persian expressions by the Turks was merely
>to show off, perhaps like knowing how to call the dice rolls in French
>would make them better lovers if not better backgammon players...

I'm not sure about that. Iran has a large population of Turkish
descent in the northwest. They are a source of ridicule, much as we
make fun of certain geographical stereotypes in the US. The languages
get mixed and certain words become commonplace in both cultures.

>So then, let's assume that they mixed and matches Turkish and Persian
>numbers based on some combinations being easier to pronounce.
>
>But why the speakers of other Middle-Eastern languages would use the
>Turkish mixture rather than purely Persian numbers?

See above.

>And then we go deeper to ask why Turks and others say "Se ba i Doe"
>(three *with and* two) for 3-2?

I think you're reading too much into that. Some people say "three and
two" while others say "three with two". Maybe it's a regional thing.

>> The only two rolls I am aware of that are called something other
>> than their number are the 4-3 and 6-5.
>
>Let's ignore "Chorse" for a moment (for it's till a Persian oddity),
>to underline that the Turkish word "besh" is the only oddity among
>your above listed expressions.

Chorse is actually used in jest. It is a mixture of the four and three
pronunciation, but also closely resembles the word for "fart" - "chos".

>Then comes the natural question: "why"?
>
>> The game is called Takhteh. Gammon = Marse. Backgammon = Gharse.
>
>What do "marse" and "gharse" mean? I thought that there was no
>"backgammon / gharse" score in traditional backgammon...??

You may be right about that, I can't say for sure. However I do
remember being ridiculed if you were backgammoned. I don't remember if
it counted in the score though.

>> There are some different rules in backgammon played in Iran than
>> the internationally recognized rules also. For one thing I don't
>> remember ever playing with the cube.
>
>Backgammon with the cube is really an entirely different game, which
>was used to raise interest for backgammon taking advantage of the
>support from already well known sick gambling Americans... But this
>is a whole different subject.
>
>
>> Matches were best of 9 usually.
>
>In Turkey, they played best 2 out of 3 matches of 5 points. Or, if
>they were short on time, they would play one 7-pointer. I have never
>seen anybody play 9-pointers.
>
>
>> The winner of each game starts the next game.
>
>And the next match, in a series of matches.
>
>> When hitting in your own home board, you are not allowed to move
>> the same checker again during the same roll unless it is left
>> open/uncovered.
>
>I can't quite understand this but it sound like the Turkish rule that
>you have to play the higher number first.

I clarified this in a reply to Michael.

[ing...@gmail.com]

My grandfather and my great uncles used to play backgammon for hours without end in Bethlehem, Palestine. And my father and my uncles who migrated to Latin America in the 1930's continued the custom. They called the game üç beş. That is 6-5. They called all the rolls as you guys have stated in a mixture of Turkish and Pharsi. The story behind this custom was that the Turks brought the game when they conquered and ruled the region,the Ottoman Empire.

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On August 5, 2017 at 10:30:19 PM UTC-6, ing...@gmail.com wrote:

How nice to see a five years old thread revived, instead of
endless, anal, asinine, useless, meaningless, etc. position
discussions. :)

> ... They called the game üç beş. That is 6-5.

6-5 is "şeş beş" and "üç beş" is 3-5.

"şeş beş" sounds like a variant or maybe just another name.

"üç beş" may mean "2 out of 3 five-point matches" which is
very customary in Turkey.

In cubeless backgammon, five point mathes are the norm but
to reduce the likelyhood of getting lucky, a minimum of 2
out of 3 is the way to play.

When short on time, a single seven-point match is played as
a close alternative.

This is important to the argument that longer matches require
more skill.

I wonder how this fits with the FIBS-ELO bullshit formula?

I'd bet winning a seven-pointer is about equal to winning
2 out of 3 five pointers, without the cube (which was a
mentally ill American gamblers' invention for higher/faster
dozes of fixes for their gambling addictions).

Back to our subject:

> They called all the rolls as you guys have stated in a
> mixture of Turkish and Pharsi. The story behind this
> custom was that the Turks brought the game when they
> conquered and ruled the region, the Ottoman Empire.

By the time Turks of Central Asia reached Anatolia, they
became more and more like the people they had conquered...

They have become Islamized, Persianized, Arabicized and
later were also influenced by Armenians, Greeks, etc.

Even at the time of its foundation, Ottoman Empire was
everything but Turkish, except for the core of their
language and some ways of their prior nomadic culture.

What is true is that the Ottoman Empire was one of the
largest and longest lived empires ever, and did mix east
with west, north with south... From food and everything
else down to details like backgammon.

California is very similar in this respect. There you can
find "Ottoman Diaspora" from all parts of the "Ottoman
Empire", forego their religious/nationalistic animosities
just to enjoy a game of backgammon...

Peace and (cubeless) backgammon on earth! :)

MK

[Michael]

Oh, the Ottoman Empire that froze civilization to the darkness of the Middle Ages in all regions that it stretched upon, from Europe to Asia to the Arab Gulf... As for their original language that consisted of more or less 700 words they should thank the Persians and the Arabs, plus all other Europeans especially the French. Where's your wife doing her hair Murat at the "coiffeur" ? ;-)
True it lasted for too long.

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On August 6, 2017 at 8:59:24 AM UTC-6, Michael wrote:

> Oh, the Ottoman Empire that froze civilization to the
> darkness of the Middle Ages in all regions that it
> stretched upon, from Europe to Asia to the Arab Gulf...

Yes, due of their adoption of islam and the Ottoman Sultan's
becoming the Khalifa of the muslim world...

The three single-god religions, Judaism, Christianity and
Islam coming from the same region, in fact almost the same
town, is no coincidence.

The middle east is the shit pit of the mis-mutated human
species and Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the same
shit of different smells...

Additionally, all empires were/are evil. Including USSR,
USA, etc.

> As for their original language that consisted of more or
> less 700 words they should thank the Persians and the Arabs,
> plus all other Europeans especially the French.

Turkish is an agglunitative language. Kind of "lego language".

All you need is a few sozens of single syllable roots and
postpositions, in order to build thousands of words.

As an example, before Checkoslovakia split, the longest word
in Turkish was "Checkoslovakyalılaştırabilemeyeceklerimizdenmisinizdir"
which is a question, asking "are you one of the ones that we will never
be able to Checoslovakianize"?

It's said to be the most mathematical/systematical language,
most suitable for robots/androids to speak, with the fewest
irregularities.

If you are a Turk/Turkish hater, I feel your pain... :(

> Where's your wife doing her hair Murat at the "coiffeur" ? ;-)

You mean my ex-wife? The first or the second one? Never seen or
heard of her since our divorce hearing over sixteen years ago.

What about your wife? Or your boyfriend, not to be sexist... ;)

MK

[Michael]

Funny, I actually agree with the first 3 quarters.
No I don't judge people by Nationality, I just wanted to clarify what the Ottoman empire really as a part of my general interest in history.
I only married once, still together, waiting for our 1st grandchild.

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On August 7, 2017 at 1:25:31 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote:

>>> As for their original language that consisted of more or
>>> less 700 words they should thank the Persians and the Arabs,

> No I don't judge people by Nationality, I just wanted to
> clarify what the Ottoman empire really as a part of my
> general interest in history.

Your previous "700 words" comment sure sounded like you
were looking down on Turks/Turkish.

Of all nationalities under the Ottomans, Turks suffered
the most and for the longest duration, which included
their language, lores, spiritual beliefs, etc.

Kind of like the natives in the USA, even though the
Ottomans were erronously referred to as Turks, mostly
as a habit from the earlier times.

By my rough estimates, the language spoken in today's
Turkey is at best around 10% Turkish (30% arabic, 10%
each persian, greek, french, english, 1-5% each others
like russian, armenian, german, etc...)

So, based on the number of words and usability, Turkish
can perhaps be called a historical language now. :(

However, these don't negate what I said about the
nature of the Turkish language.

MK

[Michael]

On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 11:16:23 PM UTC+3, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
>
>
> Your previous "700 words" comment sure sounded like you
> were looking down on Turks/Turkish.
>
>

That was because I thought you were trying to portray the Ottomans as something great.