forum on gnubg.org

[greedygammon]

why can't we have a backgammon discussion forum on www.gnubg.org? Will we be forever relegated to this antiquated X/O representation which can't even show correctly unless another obscure link "show original" is clicked? No wonder we don't have any users. If they ever do stop by, they are met with a twisted mish mash of X/Os that no one can make any sense of.

If given access to www.gnubg.org, I am willing to setup a template phpbb forum to get it started.

support-at-greedygammon.com

[michae...@gmail.com]

I generally agree with you but why should it be under gnubg and not be some other independent site?In fact I raised the same question a few months ago here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.backgammon/-IABXgEEeEQ
For years I couldn't understand anything from those X/O "mish mash" hence i couldn't participate. Until I read somewhere I should set by browser to courier 10 fonts...

[michae...@gmail.com]

btw where's that link "show Original"?

[Bradley K. Sherman]

greedygammon <ttexas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>why can't we have a backgammon discussion forum on www.gnubg.org? Will
>we be forever relegated to this antiquated X/O representation which
>can't even show correctly unless another obscure link "show original" is
>clicked? No wonder we don't have any users. If they ever do stop by,
>they are met with a twisted mish mash of X/Os that no one can make any
>sense of.

> ...

You need a better newsreader. I use trn on freeBSD. You might
find something here:
<http://www.newsreaders.info/recommended-newsreaders.htm>

--bks

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-10 8:07 PM, greedygammon wrote:
> why can't we have a backgammon discussion forum on www.gnubg.org? Will we be forever relegated to this antiquated X/O representation which can't even show correctly unless another obscure link "show original" is clicked? No wonder we don't have any users. If they ever do stop by, they are met with a twisted mish mash of X/Os that no one can make any sense of.
>
> If given access to www.gnubg.org, I am willing to setup a template phpbb forum to get it started.
>

I don't thing gnubg.org is the place. gnubg.org is for the distribution
of our product and for associated information. It isn't that we couldn't
have a forum, I think it is more of "why on our site?".

I'm a minimalist and I really don't mind the forum on Stick's
http://www.bgonline.org/forums/ . There are also forums over at
http://fibsboard.com and on
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/138/backgammon/ (Where Bill Robertie
is active) . Not sure we need YABGF.

As was mentioned about reading here - Google is a crutch to access the
Newsgroups. Getting access to a proper Newsgroup feed and using a real
News Reader works quite well. Bradley had a link to many newsreaders.
I'm a Thunderbird (open source email client for many platforms) user and
it has a reasonable newsreader built in.

If your ISP doesn't have news group feeds (servers) you can always look
at a free alternative like http://www.teranews.com/

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 5:19:51 AM UTC-6, michae...@gmail.com wrote:
> btw where's that link "show Original"?

If you mean using Google, next to the "post reply" icon,
there is a drop down list arrow "more message options".

Personally, I really would like to see all those position
discussions move somewhere else. Not only that I have no
interest in reading them but I see them as a sort of spam
that drown out any other subject.

As I pointed out before, newsgroups are part of separate
network called "Usenet" (like WWW, "Wold Wide Web") that
are not owned, controlled or censored by any individuals.

As such, I hope that Usenet and RGB will continue to exist.

MK


MK

[greedygammon]

Well I picked gnubg.org because it is a center for backgammon development and I assumed that it might make sense to have a backgammon forum under it. Not only would the forum be backgammon position discussions but could also be a repository for gnubg related information questions discussions.

Sure there are some other forums out there but.... fibsboard is on a mission to see how many f*&%$ing ads they can plaster all over their messages (it was so last time I was there years ago). Stick is stuck on a 1980s board that has no categories everything under a single list with threads meandering all over the place. 2+2 is poker site and if they add backgammon it is as an after thought.

I want a nice place for backgammon only, with NO ads, where I can see a nice graphical render of a position and category of different subjects so I can pick and choose what I want to participate and read. Maybe I am not interested in positions today but I would like to read about tournaments or backgammon news or whatever maybe I just want to talk misc about some news story with people who I have developed online friendship with. Ok.. ? we are human we are not ROBOTS that do the same thing over and over like a machine... maybe it's just me? hahaha..

The forum does not necessarily have to be with gnubg but since gnubg already exists and is likely to be a permanent site I thought it would be a good place to host it. It would be nice to have a site that is not dependent on any one person. That is the nice thing about newsgroup is that unlike a private site, it would not be shut down at the whim of anyone who decides they don't want it anymore.

==============================================

>> gnubg.org is for the distribution of our product and for associated information. It isn't that we couldn't
have a forum, I think it is more of "why on our site?".

====================================================================

Ok first it seems weird to me that you would say "our" product as if you own it. Do I really have to explain why a backgammon forum would be a good fit for on a backgammon site? A place where a new bg player looking for resource could find it without getting hammered with ads or old antiquated systems. Well the main reason I suggested gnubg is because it would not be (hopefully) a private site that could go down if the owner decided to shut it down or maybe the owner failed to pay the domain fee or whatever. I would have more faith in gnubg.org than fibs.com or any other private site.

Also I don't see what the push back would be to such a forum. Its not like we are asking YOU to do anything. You can still do your coding on the project and let someone else manage the forum.

So anyway how would such a suggestion be handled? Who decides if such a forum could be placed on gnubg.org? Is there like a committee or something?

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-11 5:33 PM, greedygammon wrote:
> Ok first it seems weird to me that you would say "our" product as if you own it.

Not sure you are just having a bad day or what, but "OUR" was a well
chosen word. I didn't say "MY" product. The "OUR" was suppose to imply a
shared ownership, and yes, I am one of the authors of gnubg (I have code
copyrighted inside the code base), I've been listed in th AUTHORS
section of the credits for years, and I am one of a very few who has
admin access to the website. I'm also the official representative to the
GNU foundation for "our" project.

I think that makes me more than qualified to represent the project as
one of the owners.

You also asked "So anyway how would such a suggestion be handled? Who

decides if such a forum could be placed on gnubg.org?"

I have said this before. Add yourself the official mailing list and send
a message to bug-...@gnu.org . RGB is not a good place to get the
attention of the GNUbg team.

Generally speaking behind the scenes we work mainly as a consensus among
active developers. There is no official committee, however I am
currently one of the people who does give input on things like this.

I am *personally* not a fan of PHPbb and many other forum software
because of the security threat such software has posed for vectors of
hacking. I personally wouldn't integrate such software within the
current web services of the main site (and the file downloads). There
would need to be some separation.

If someone is interested in maintaining the site and redeveloping the
whole thing that is also a reasonable thing to ask about on the mailing
list. We are always looking for volunteers.

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-11 6:25 PM, Michael Petch wrote:
> I have said this before. Add yourself the official mailing list and send
> a message to bug-...@gnu.org . RGB is not a good place to get the
> attention of the GNUbg team.

I forgot to put a link for the information about joining the list. That
can be found here:

http://gnubg.org/index.php?itemid=11

You must join the mailing list to successfully send emails to
bug-...@gnu.org

[greedygammon]

actually I am having a GOOD day which is why I was motivated to offer something positive for OUR backgammon community. Even going as far as to volunteer my own efforts even though I'm sure there are many who are far more qualified to setup something like that. Sounds to me like YOU are the one got your panties in a bunch. If "we might get hacked" was a legitimate excuse not to get a forum, we would not have ANY discussion groups out there AT ALL would we? I hardly think gnubg.org would be an attractive target for any hackers. What would they find? No credit card numbers, no SS numbers nothing. The source code is already free and open. I know gnubg has a mailing list and the proper process is to post through there but since you are a regular here and do respond to gnubg questions I posted my suggestion here. If you are opposed to it, as far as I am concerned, the matter is closed.

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-11 7:15 PM, greedygammon wrote:
> ? I hardly think gnubg.org would be an attractive target for any hackers. What would they find?

We have had 2 major attacks in the past 6 years. Just google for
messages on our mailing list about it. Most attacks are automated and if
a site is compromised and doesn't have useful data it is altered to
redirect to other malicious sites that may cause user problems. To
believe that gnubg.org wouldn't be a target - history has told us otherwise.

[Tim Chow]

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 9:15:05 PM UTC-4, greedygammon wrote:
> I hardly think gnubg.org would be an attractive target for any hackers.
> What would they find? No credit card numbers, no SS numbers nothing.

I'm afraid you're way behind the times. As Michael said, the real pros have automated software that scans the Internet constantly for known vulnerabilities and just takes whatever it can get. There doesn't have to be any direct financial gain available. They can use the site for command and control or for disguising their true origins. Or they may just want another electronic soldier for launching a distributed denial-of-service attack. They may not even want any of these things for themselves, but may be in the business of selling such services to customers who have the cash but not the time or the know-how to hack a bunch of computers themselves.

---
Tim Chow

[greedygammon]

I clicked on your link https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.backgammon/-IABXgEEeEQ
and it shows no such question posted by you. Here is what that thread shows..


12/23/14


mu...@compuplus.net Relatively recently, our math phd jackass wrote this article in a different and exclusive BG forum: http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?read=169590 Apparently he is inspired by anybody's being able to stand behind the error rate, El






12/23/14


michae...@gmail.com Oh no, I didn't like the first 2 lines and I am not going to read this any further. .. Imo you should consider the fact that everybody in this forum highly respects this person, and if you have such a low opinion of him, perhaps it would be better








12/23/14


michae...@gmail.com I mean how would you expect anyone to comment on your post even if he agrees with some of your points?? You bring everybody at a very difficult position... it's better to try making your point without personal attacks...








12/23/14


Simon Woodhead Don't feed the troll.






12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net If somebody claimed that using Mersenne Twister, one could figure out the seed only after a few rolls, wouldn't you call him a troll or would you starve him...?? :) I called him a jackass for that and I wouldn't mind at all if you all fed him. Y






12/30/14


Michael Petch Tim is correct. Mersenne Twister suffers from the problem where one can collect enough bits of data to determine the current state of Mersenne Twister and with that be able to predict future data. It is one of the main reasons that Mersenne isn't






12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net I don't need indefinite/generic bs like "a few rolls", "enough bits of data", etc. Just give me the numbers. "While playing BG using Mersenne Twister, how many rolls Tim Chow would need to figure out











12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net Oh, okay then, maybe not many people read and/or responded to his article because his starting out by calling me names right in the first sentence. ;) That's fair... :)) MK














12/23/14


Paul Totally agreed, I'm a massive TimChow fan, I am. As a chess player, I suggest googling for his writings on the mathematics of chess. Also, check out his webpages for lots of interesting info. Paul






12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net It doesn't interest me what he wrote about other subjects. I'm only responding to and criticizing what he writes here about BG. Would you mind letting us know where do you stand on his claim that "using Mersenne Twister, one can figure out the






12/30/14


Paul Tim is probably correct about this. The topic is discussed here: https://jazzy.id.au/2010/09/22/cracking_random_number_generators_part_3.html I think Tim is a world-renowned expert in this field of mathematics. It would make more sense to try a








12/30/14


Michael Petch One issue is that the algorithm presented doesn't account for the fact that in the case of BG software a lot of the data bits are discarded. It is still in theory possible to determine Mersenne Twister current state from the dice output but it is











12/30/14


Michael Petch Murat has little faith that the experts in mathematics who frequent the Backgammon forums are doing anything but peddling lies. Long before Tim Chow, Murat also did the same thing when Douglas Zare use to post here. Tim Chow is the mathematician






12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net Not necessarily lies but maybe some fancy bullshit here and there that don't apply to reality??











12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net So, you stand with Chow but you're not fully confident??






12/30/14


Tim Chow You really should try to figure this out yourself rather than try to socially engineer it out of other people. If you understand what bits are then it's an easy exercise. --- Tim Chow






Jan 8


mu...@compuplus.net I'm just proving that you and your ass kissers are a pack of pretentious hyenas... :( MK














12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net Did you at least click on the link to read what he wrote? His article starts with "While playing with Murat the Troll over on r.g.b., I was led to consider the following..." So, it's okay with you that he starts out by demeaning me calling me a






12/30/14


Paul There is exactly a reasonable point, here. I didn't think the "Murat the Troll" phrase was appropriate, either. Paul






12/30/14


Michael Petch I'd be curious if your objection to referring to Murat with that term was because you believe the moniker doesn't suit Murat, or that you feel it wasn't necessary for Tim to state what Murat is so bluntly?








12/30/14


Bradley K. Sherman We really should retire the word "troll." It's essentially meaningless in an age where people post inflammatory nonsense to Twitter and then are held in high esteem for having attracted many zombie "followers". Murat has a hobby-horse which he








12/30/14


Michael Petch Being on topic doesn't exclude one from being an Internet troll. Being off topic just happens to be one way a troll can manifest itself on a particular forum. Regarding PRNG's, one can find your answer if you read Murat's posts from the 1990s re






12/30/14


Bradley K. Sherman Oh, sure. I certainly agree that there is no reason to engage with him because his style of argument is specious if not consciously duplicitous. I just think that the word "troll" should be retired (i.e. it's my opinion). --bks











12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net You are right that my participation here is sporadic/seasonal but not my general interest in BG. In fact, I probably would participate more if I didn't feel like talking to a flock of believers. My profanity sometimes is a result of frustration l














12/30/14


Paul Basically the latter -- "it wasn't necessary for Tim to state what Murat is so bluntly". But it wasn't necessary at all to talk about the trolling. It's just a gratuitous insult. Paul








12/30/14


Simon Woodhead Troll is a valid and perfectly acceptable term which describes Murat's postings to this group perfectly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 Please don't feed the troll.











12/30/14


Tim Chow is > so bluntly". But it wasn't necessary at all to talk about the trolling. > It's just a gratuitous insult. It helps people identify who I'm talking about. Some people who have left r.g.b. a long time ago may have forgotten his name but thei






12/30/14


Paul No, this is hardly a convincing excuse. Better to say that you were wrong to include an insult. Paul






12/30/14


Tim Chow Maybe. I'm still not convinced that it was wrong, though. The other thing that the mention does is to warn people that r.g.b. does still have trolls. Since several BGOnline readers have explicitly said that the presence of trolls (they use that








12/31/14


Paul Now, I think I see a problem in your reasoning. You're introducing an implicit faulty assumption. You're correct that there's "no value-neutral synonym" for "troll". However, you're erroneously assuming that you need a one-word synonym is neede






12/31/14


Tim Chow Sure, but I don't really see the harm in using the more succinct word "troll." It's only mildly pejorative. I would agree with you that if I had said, "Murat the jackass" or "Murat the idiot" then that would have been gratuitously insulting. I'






Jan 8


mu...@compuplus.net On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 at 3:49:24 PM UTC-7, Tim Chow wrote: > ... What I said was accurate: I was led to think of idea > while playing with Murat. Okay, then why do you make a fool of yourself and punish yourself for doing so? Just











Jan 8


mu...@compuplus.net For my sake, I am glad that at least some of the sick gambler arrogant assholes have quarantined themselves voluntarily in their own high cages... :) RGB is a better place without them. Since you take upon yourself to warn them about trolls in R






Jan 9


Tim Chow Sadly, I am. One of my many faults. --- Tim Chow

















12/30/14


mu...@compuplus.net My argument was that what Chow said made him a jackass because he allowed himself to be persuaded by a troll to propose an experiment. Thus, whether I am actually a troll or not doesn't effect my argument why he is a jackass. Obviously you don






12/30/14


Tim Chow I don't mind your calling me a jackass, but I think that what your argument shows is that I'm a fool, not a jackass. For me to be a jackass, it does matter if you are actually a troll. If you're actually a troll then I don't see why calling you






Jan 8


mu...@compuplus.net One definition of jackass is "annoying kind of fool". Look it up.






Jan 9


Tim Chow But your argument is still incomplete because you didn't argue why I am annoying. --- Tim Chow









mu...@compuplus.net





Jan 11


















On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 3:46:08 PM UTC-7, Tim Chow wrote:

>> One definition of jackass is "annoying kind of fool". Look it up.

> But your argument is still incomplete because you didn't argue
> why I am annoying.


You are annoying because you are annoying, jackass... ;)

Are you happy now??

MK

[greedygammon]

maybe I am overestimating the demand for a backgammon community? As dead as this RBG forum is and the bgonline that is a private club for a handful of close knit players. The forum at greedygammon seems to have hits from Google but no one signs up and posts there. Maybe the whole "forum" thing is not so popular after all? Yet some forums have a huge memberlist and millions of posts.
Why isn't backgammon more popular? People would rather play flappy bird and candy crunch? hahahahahaha God help us.. we are doomed.

On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 7:07:17 PM UTC-7, greedygammon wrote:

[jacob...@gmail.com]

I put a lot of thought into which forums to use for backgammon. I've set up forums many times before and the modern forums which you recommend are not at all the best set up in my less than humble opinion. You think I'm stuck in the 80s but you're posting on rgb...that gave me a laugh.

You want something more modern like Hardy's forums?

http://forum.hardyhuebener.de/backgammon/

Think about it. That's a nightmare to me. I'm not going into all the whys. Hopefully you can figure them out on your own. And that's with Hardy having roughly 1/4th of the sheer number of posts that BGO does according to my Q&D math.

I'm not sure aside from myself who is in this tight nit group of better than thou asshats over at BGO. Who gives off that vibe? I often do _with people I know_. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone new being mistreated unless they brought it on themselves. (hey *Jack Mack*! glad you're still reading here too!)

If you want it more user friendly to the intermediate player get on it. Nobody is stopping you. At least you won't be seeing Xs and Os.

Stick

[greedygammon]

how about something like this..

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/

[montanao...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 11:39:43 PM UTC-6, jacob...@gmail.com wrote:

> (hey *Jack Mack*! glad you're still reading here too!)

You just can't keep a secret, can you..? :(

MK

[montanao...@gmail.com]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:53:02 AM UTC-6, greedygammon wrote:

> how about something like this..
> http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/

Why would you want to structure it so much? It's nice to run into
some unexpectedly interesting posts that one would skip, and miss
out on, if they were so categorized.

95% of posts here are about positions. For the ones who don't care
about them, they are nothing but spam. And it is the ones who like
them who complain about the non-graphical content.

The solution seems pretty simple to me. Just take position posts to
a different/graphical forum and optionally categorize them at nauseam
as you like.

This solution would make me a very happy RGB'er...

MK

[michae...@gmail.com]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 11:48:54 AM UTC+2, montanao...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> The solution seems pretty simple to me. Just take position posts to
> a different/graphical forum
>

> This solution would make me a very happy RGB'er...
>
> MK

You will be happy to be left alone in here???

[michae...@gmail.com]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 9:53:02 AM UTC+2, greedygammon wrote:
> how about something like this..
>
> http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/
>

Excellent.
Do I sense your problem is not the setting of such forum, but hosting it?

[Tim Chow]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:39:43 AM UTC-4, jacob...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not sure aside from myself who is in this tight nit group of better
> than thou asshats over at BGO. Who gives off that vibe? I often do
> _with people I know_. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone new being
> mistreated unless they brought it on themselves.

I wouldn't go so far as to use greedygammon's term "private club for a handful of close knit players," let alone your exaggerated parody of that term. However, I think you just don't realize how some of the posts there come across to people who are not in the "in" group.

For example, Sean Garber posts for the first time on 8 Feb 2015. Less than four months later, he responds to a posted problem by saying what he would play. A couple of posts later, a certain Stick mentions that Garber's name reminds him of the French word for puke or vomit.

http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?read=179772

So maybe now you'll tell me that you and Sean have been best buddies since childhood and that he's ROFL over your comment, or maybe you'll tell me that someone who's been around for four months doesn't count as new any more, or that Sean brought it on himself by posting a weak move that looked plausible to his intermediate eyes. Or most likely, you don't see that your comment gives off any kind of vibe that would discourage intermediate players. If the last of these is true, then I rest my case.

---
Tim Chow

[Tim Chow]

I don't think I would have even noticed Stick's comment if you hadn't singled it out for attention this way.

---
Tim Chow

[greedygammon]

if one was to clone this forum, it would be $175b for the ipboard software or it could possibly be somewhat duplicated with a free smf or phpbb but not look exactly as that one. Or use either vbulletin or Xenforo which are about the same price as the ipboard. If there is demand for such a site we could discuss how to go about making it happen.

[jacob...@gmail.com]

I try to check out the bridgebase forums and they don't even load at the moment. My forums are completely free btw. I don't mean just for the every day user, I mean for anyone who wants to set them up. I didn't even think about this as being an incentive but now that you bring it up it goes in the plus column I guess.

If my forums aren't up to snuff then anyone is welcome to start a non 1980s version and see what a difference that makes.

At least you joined in the exaggerated parody with Sean and I needing to be bffs for me to say something like that. Yes, we definitely know each other. Just because someone has been posting for four months means nothing about how long they have been visiting BGO. There are plenty of lurkers. I can see the ips and know how long someone has been coming around.

Stick

[greedygammon]

If bgonline works for you and your members, there is no problem for 4 u at all.
What we think about your forum is irrelevant as we here are an inconsequential 5-6 users maybe some of those are even the same person posting under a different name. Never can be sure with the anonymous internet. What I am proposing is an alternative to RBG which is not controlled by one single person, a modern interface as the example given, open to everyone, maybe geared towards introducing new players to the game. Focusing on the free gnubg for analysis, how to use it (it is intimidating for new players with all the dizzying array of numbers) I don't know maybe there is no demand for another forum? If TC stops posting here this forum is DEAD!!. BGONLINE is a private club for professional circuit high level players who all know each other for many years. Petch is squawking about any suggestion to put a forum up on gnubg.org so what else is there?

[Bradley K. Sherman]

greedygammon <ttexas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

I, for one, would appreciate it if you would stop top-posting.

--bks

[greedygammon]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 11:39:19 AM UTC-7, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:

> greedygammon wrote:
> > ...
>
> I, for one, would appreciate it if you would stop top-posting.
>
> --bks

this is how it looks in google groups

http://greedygammon.com/positions/looks-ok-to-me.png

Is there a problem? Why is my email showing in your post for the whole world to see?

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 12:53 PM, greedygammon wrote:
> this is how it looks in google groups
>
> http://greedygammon.com/positions/looks-ok-to-me.png
>
> Is there a problem? Why is my email showing in your post for the whole world to see?

Note that underneath your text in the diagram it says "show quoted
text". For anyone who doesn't use Google for viewing (any non brain dead
Usenet reader) we see your post and all the quoted text below your
response. The fact that Google simply shows "show quoted text" and hides
the previous text - still makes it top posting.

[greedygammon]

Ive tried newsreaders if I remember it was one that came with Microsoft email Outlook Express. It was HORRIBLE! didn't like it. It was slow clunky I may have tried others as well. Google Groups works fine except for the positions font issue and there is the spam. The whole thing is im trying to see if anyone else wants to get away from RGB. I think a fun game like backgammon deserves better but if all you "BRAIN DEAD" stuck in the 90s robots, want to cling to your antiquated system, so be it..

Someone who calls people "brain dead" in a belittling manner is a poor candidate for "the official representative to the

GNU foundation for "our" project"

Just so u know.. people who have a habit of putting others down are insecure about themselves. It is not an "elegant" behavior.

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 1:36 PM, greedygammon wrote:
> Someone who calls people "brain dead" in a belittling manner is a poor candidate for "the official representative to the
> GNU foundation for "our" project"

I think you took the wrong interpretation. I did say "For anyone who
doesn't use Google for viewing (any non brain dead Usenet reader)".
First off people who don't use Google generally see quoted text (Google
hides it). For those of us who don't use Google we are likely using a
stand alone Usenet Newsreader. My comment wasn't meant to mean a reader
of the newsgroup, the the Usenet Reader itself (Thunderbird, emacs, pan
etc). Some older newsreaders are brain dead since they completely botch
reply chains, but most modern ones do a very good job of showing
messages as they would appear. Most non-brain dead Usenet readers allow
one to easily do interleaved quoting (my preference).

I have a feeling that most people who read my post probably didn't
assume I was calling readers of R.G.B. brain dead.

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 1:52 PM, Michael Petch wrote:
> the the Usenet Reader itself

should have been "but the Usenet Reader itself"

[greedygammon]

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/alt.usage.english/OxmKMIoHfF0

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 3:19 PM, greedygammon wrote:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/alt.usage.english/OxmKMIoHfF0
>

Thanks, I totally agree with the guy that said this:

"No, the assumption is incorrect ... "brain dead" refers to the tool,
although some critics do also apply it to the tool user.

[snip]
/dps "

Also his view on newsreaders is also bang on. I snipped that part out
for brevity.

[michae...@gmail.com]

Top posting is useful at least it tells who you are replying to and for what.It's often appropriate to delete unnecessary stuff and leave only the relevant parts to which you reply or comment.

Sticks forum doesn't seem to allow this in fact people copy paste text manually then place it in quotation marks " " and you don't even know who replies to who and for what. I was just reading this topic http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=179935#179935
when all of a sudden someone asks someone else that nobody knows "In what sense does he need permission? "
and next post someone replies to someone else that nobody knows either "Then they need to put it in, because this is BS! "

At that point I abandoned all reading ;-)

Let's face it both forums are backwards technology-wise.

[Bradley K. Sherman]

greedygammon <ttexas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ive tried newsreaders if I remember it was one that came with Microsoft email Outlook Express. It was HORRIBLE!

> ...

Could you try to keep your line lengths under 80 characters? Thanks.

--bks

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 4:36 PM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> Could you try to keep your line lengths under 80 characters?

I think 72 is still preferred although 80 would make it a lot more
readable. A news reader that isn't brain dead should really be doing
this by default (at least for lines that can be broken up easily).

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 3:19 PM, greedygammon wrote:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/alt.usage.english/OxmKMIoHfF0
>

And then there is this response:

"A person reading Usenet groups may technically be
called a Usenet reader, but from the context it is
clear that the author counterposes software news-
readers to Google's web interface. "

[greedygammon]

the best response is this one..

if the phrase had been written "for anyone who uses any non brain dead Usenet reader.." the "brain-dead" connection to the Usenet software would be clear.

writing "For anyone who doesn't use Google for viewing (any non brain dead Usenet reader)" we are still referencing "anyone". If not ambiguous at best, it is clumsy.

[Michael Petch]

On 2015-06-12 5:19 PM, greedygammon wrote:
> the best response is this one..
>
> if the phrase had been written "for anyone who uses any non brain dead Usenet reader.." the "brain-dead" connection to the Usenet software would be clear.
>
> writing "For anyone who doesn't use Google for viewing (any non brain dead Usenet reader)" we are still referencing "anyone". If not ambiguous at best, it is clumsy.

You mean YOUR response (that quote is from a post you made to that
newsgroup). But even better is that you now concede that it may have
been ambiguous. Why do you think I wrote a followup to your response in
this thread about brain-dead?

You are now trying to steer that conversation now that the responses
that look at the context may support my case. Have you noticed I never
responded publicly to any of those posts in that newsgroup? Because I'd
prefer to see what people say without you or I interfering with the
conversation.

I also noticed you didn't thank the two people who didn't support your view.

By the way, after looking at your last post on the forum you posted the
language question - I noticed you didn't top post, but you engaged in
another faux-pas... refusing to trim the quotes. Hitting reply and
keeping everything as a quote (nested more than one level) without
trimming it is bad forum etiquette as well.

[Michael Petch]

As one of the maintainers, authors, and one of two public faces of the
GNUbg team at present I regret responding with a thoughtful response
that happened to be contrary to the original poster regarding forums on
gnubg.org.

In the past the content management system we use (nucleus) did allow for
people to ask questions and respond to the articles we posted. If we
happen to ever turn on some interactive feature that allowed user input,
I have learned who I *personally* may or may not favour in looking after
such a feature.

I will admit I got trolled in this thread. But now I know better.

And on a final note. If anyone has a feature request or idea, a bug
report, or wish to volunteer in any capacity please join our mailing
list. Information on joining the list can be found at:

http://gnubg.org/index.php?itemid=11

[greedygammon]

I was following in your quirky way of responding to the second post there with "I agree with this guy" meaning in effect -you agree with yourself" hahaha come on Petch u too much. Can u even play backgammon? I bet I can whup your behind in backgammon. Name the place and time.

[michae...@gmail.com]

LOL it's getting childish. The "brain-dead" thingy lead to misunderstanding,it's been clarified forget about it.
Concentrate on the issue:
Do we need a "news reader forum" or a "discussion forum"?
If it's the latter then neither this, nor Stick's forum are good imo.

[greedygammon]

good point. So what is the difference between "newsreader forum" and a
"discussion forum" what are the pro and cons of each?

[michae...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 1:47:00 PM UTC+2, greedygammon wrote:
> good point. So what is the difference between "newsreader forum" and a
> "discussion forum" what are the pro and cons of each?

I am sure you know the answer. Are topics discussing bg positions "news" fcs?
How are we going to attract the new generation to Bg with these relics? The NG got used to unbelievably realistic animated graphics of console games, who would ever convince them to at least have a look at such BG forums? I am not saying a modernly designed BG forum would by itself attract the NG of people, but it would surely play a role.
It's been about a year I am actively participating here, I have not seen not even one new active member. Tim stopped posting for a couple of weeks and the "forum" suddenly died...

[greedygammon]

right, these Usenet newsgroups which used to be popular back in the day have lost their relevance in the face of a new breed of discussion platforms. They are as obsolete as the Pcs of that era.. remember them the 286, 386 486 that we paid big bucks for? with their 14.4, 28.8, 56k modems. We now have access to broadband, video, HQ graphics. The reason they don't have graphics here is because it was made before graphics could even be displayed and even then unless u had a $200 56k modem u had to wait forever for a graphic to load. So now we live in a different time. Did you know there are still some people (so ive heard) that play on FIBS with the DOS x/o screens? Well this was some years back. So anyway these forums like phpbb smf ipboard xenforo, they are not difficult to set up. The cost to host a site is minimal. There is no excuse not to have a nice discussion forum.

[Bradley K. Sherman]

greedygammon <ttexas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>right, these Usenet newsgroups which used to be popular back in the day
>have lost their relevance in the face of a new breed of discussion
>platforms.

> ...

In many ways the experience of using USENET with a good newsreader
is far superior to the "new breed". For example, when I tune into
rgb I can immediately read all articles that I have not already
read without wading through a swamp of previously read articles.
I can mark an article as unread, so that I can quickly return to
it later. I can read the articles of primary interest, and then
return later to the less-interesting ones.

I can (and do) automatically record all of my postings on
my local computer. That alone makes it more valuable (to me)
than all the Web 2.0 offerings.

Further, the interface to any USENET newsgroup is identical
to that of any other newsgroup. I can jump from reading
about backgammon to reading about molecular biology or about
operating systems without having to switch interface gears.
I have other interests besides backgammon. Further, while
cross-posting can be misused, the ability to carry on
a discussion in two related groups (poker and backgammon, say)
reminds me of the best aspects of Hesse's "glass bead game".

I agree that it has fallen out of favor. Some of that is because
Google ate Deja News and then deprecated the search mechanism.
Some of that is because the Twitterati do not have the patience
to learn to use it.

But rgb has a great S/N ratio (as does Stick's forum) despite
its lack of graphics.

--bks

[greedygammon]

On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 9:05:07 AM UTC-7, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:

a once active discussion forum that has been around for decades and has now been reduced to single digit postings by the same 3-4 users is in my opinion DEAD!!. Doesn't mean it should be abolished. If you prefer it to something else by all means, continue using it. I am NOT trying to win YOU over. I am looking for members who actually CARE about the backgammon community ecosystem and what could be done to revive it. Do YOU have any ideas why there is such low participation here? Do you care?

[Bradley K. Sherman]

greedygammon <ttexas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

>a once active discussion forum that has been around for decades
>and has now been reduced to single digit postings by the same 3-4
>users is in my opinion DEAD!!.

It's not the number of postings, it's the quality. If it
were just Stick and Tim, I would read it. If there were
100 posts a day of empty complaints like yours, I would not.

How about letting us zombies shamble along and that will
give you more time to get your fifth-generation platform
operational? Good luck with that.

--bks

[Tim Chow]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 12:37:44 PM UTC-4, jacob...@gmail.com wrote:
> At least you joined in the exaggerated parody with Sean and I needing to be
> bffs for me to say something like that. Yes, we definitely know each other.

It is still apparent that you have little feeling for how this kind of post comes off to the average lurker.

---
Tim Chow

[Tim Chow]

On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 12:42:12 PM UTC-4, greedygammon wrote:
> a once active discussion forum that has been around for decades and has now
> been reduced to single digit postings by the same 3-4 users is in my opinion
> DEAD!!. Doesn't mean it should be abolished.

Yes, r.g.b. is dead. IMO, it has little to do with the format. It's because backgammon is mostly dead.

By all means attempt to start a new site, but I suspect you'll have trouble realizing your vision. People won't go to your site because of fancy features; they'll want content. How are you going to get content? The few individuals who are willing to generate good content on a regular basis generally have their own websites or blogs already.

Incidentally, if you want to use Google Groups and want to see the diagrams, you can follow Michael's suggestion. For example, in Firefox, you can set the font to Courier, and then under "Advanced," uncheck the box that says, "Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of my selections above."

---
Tim Chow

[Bradley K. Sherman]

Tim Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...

>Yes, r.g.b. is dead. IMO, it has little to do with the format.
>It's because backgammon is mostly dead.

> ...

Think globally, act locally. Organize live tournaments
in pleasant locations. Be sure that novice players are
treated with the utmost respect and are protected from
the wolves. I don't know if that's sufficient to revive
interest, but it's necessary.

--bks

[greedygammon]

good suggestion. I will try to tidy up and extend forum at greedygammon. As for content, I will share my secret system..ctrl-C >> ctrl-V works like a charm :-)