Stud Question
FellKnight
live cards) when deciding whether or not to continue with a gutshot
straight draw against a probable high pair?
Specific hand question: Assume a 10/20 table with a $1 ante, $3 bring-in.
A 4 brings it in, and a rock with a King showing completes. You know he
has Kings or better. You have an 8 up, and look down to find a 67
two-flush in the hole. All 5s and 9s are live. You elect to call,
knowing that this player will overplay unimproved Kings. All fold.
On 4th, you catch an offsuit 4, he bricks(let's say a deuce). He bets
again. Your play?
Assume you call. On 5th, you catch a Ten, he catches a Jack. You now
have a very well disguised double gut-shot, and also a backdoor flush
draw. He bets. You?
Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
Assume that you merely called the 3-bet. On 6th, you catch a trey,
killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
here is there?)
On 7th, you catch a 5. He looks at his 7th street card, and bets. You
raise. He 3-bets. You?
Fell
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FellKnight
actual name posted. So, think on the rock's board on 4th street, and I
have given him due credit :)
Fell
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Howard Beale
You asked for general considerations and I'm not bothering to add up the
pot or anything like that. First, I don't like giving a rock any action
unless I'm very strong myself. The 5th street action should've told you
not to raise the river. He had Kings up or 3 Jacks. And you said he's a
rock who three bet you here. On the river he bet into a player who has
been playing him tough in the hand showing a final board of 8-4-10-3.
What is he to make of a mess like that? You did say a rock, right?
Unless you feel that he doesn't know you and has absolutely no respect for
your game at all I would've just called the river. As for his final
raise: I call and vomit.
Edit: I just looked back and see that you said he would've over-played
unimproved Kings. Even so, his play here is a lot more than over-playing
don't you think? If all he's got here is Kings up he doesn't qualify as a
'Rock' in my dictionary.
Howard Beale
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ecr72
> Oh, and the original author of the question wants credit, but not his
> actual name posted. So, think on the rock's board on 4th street, and I
> have given him due credit :)
>
> Fell
> --
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> (STILL IN BETA MODE)
The original author? Is that the same guy who hosts the weekly Kansas
City Lowball game on Games Grid at 9:30PM EST every Thursday with a $7 +
70 buy-in, no password required?
On 4th street, was that deuce suited to the king or an offsuit? Trying to
narrow this mofo down.
______________________________________________________________________
Howard Beale
> Oh, and the original author of the question wants credit, but not his
> actual name posted. So, think on the rock's board on 4th street, and I
> have given him due credit :)
>
> Fell
> --
> Visit http://www.fellknight.com for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
> (STILL IN BETA MODE)
KoD used to be a regular here. What's up w/ that?
HB
-------
Aardvark
Are any of your cards live to make a better pair? (i.e., he has Kings
and you have an Ace in your hand).
In addition to your own cards how live are his cards? If it turns out
that he's tripped up how likely is he to catch a boat and win even if
you make your straight?
Do you have a chance to get him to fold without the best hand? This is
specifically important when you asked what to do on 5th street. There
are some players who will never fold a big pair when it's heads-up.
This is part of the reason that you called in the first place. The flip
side though, is that you are unlikely to win through a bluff or
semi-bluff. You might still put in a raise there in hopes of seeing
additional cards more cheaply (although since you're already in the
higher level of betting that's not as likely with a raise there).
As you mentioned, if the player is likely to overplay their big pair
then that will affect things. On the other hand, if he plays TOO
cautious you might be able to see several cards for one bet if he slows
down after not improving.
I still don't like the call here though, even with many of these things
in your favor unless your opponent is very bad. Even in an ideal
situation (all of your straight cards are live AND all of your flush
cards are live) you're getting involved in a heads-up hand where your
EV is less than 40%. Yeah, he might pay you off an extra couple bets
when you hit, but you also may end up losing a lot of extra bets when
you back into 2-pair and lose or even make your straight and still
lose. Of course, the most common thing (especially if you plan to play
gutshots) is that you will pick up a draw, put a lot of money into the
pot chasing it, then you'll miss it in the end anyway.
-Tom.
RedKnave
On 6th, you catch a trey,
> killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> here is there?)
>
> On 7th, ...
Does it matter what he got on 6th street?
____________________________________________________________________
FellKnight
> You asked for general considerations and I'm not bothering to add up the
> pot or anything like that. First, I don't like giving a rock any action
> unless I'm very strong myself. The 5th street action should've told you
> not to raise the river. He had Kings up or 3 Jacks. And you said he's a
> rock who three bet you here. On the river he bet into a player who has
> been playing him tough in the hand showing a final board of 8-4-10-3.
> What is he to make of a mess like that? You did say a rock, right?
> Unless you feel that he doesn't know you and has absolutely no respect for
> your game at all I would've just called the river. As for his final
> raise: I call and vomit.
>
> Edit: I just looked back and see that you said he would've over-played
> unimproved Kings. Even so, his play here is a lot more than over-playing
> don't you think? If all he's got here is Kings up he doesn't qualify as a
> 'Rock' in my dictionary.
>
> Howard Beale
Should specify: By rock, I meant he only plays good starting hands, and
only raises with premiums. As I said, he will overplay the Kings later,
so although the 5th street action could mean Kings up or trip Jacks, it
could also still be Kings.
This guy is a 60+ something old-timer who has no respect for anybody's
game who hasn't played stud for 30 years.
Fell
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FellKnight
> On Jan 19 2006 1:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> On 6th, you catch a trey,
> > killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> > here is there?)
> >
> > On 7th, ...
>
> Does it matter what he got on 6th street?
Nah. He didn't open pair.
Fell
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ecr72
> On Jan 19 2006 11:33 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > Oh, and the original author of the question wants credit, but not his
> > actual name posted. So, think on the rock's board on 4th street, and I
> > have given him due credit :)
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Visit http://www.fellknight.com for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
> > (STILL IN BETA MODE)
>
>
> KoD used to be a regular here. What's up w/ that?
He's just jealous of FellKnight.
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tyslothrop
On Jan 19 2006 1:00 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
> On Jan 19 2006 11:33 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > Oh, and the original author of the question wants credit, but not his
> > actual name posted. So, think on the rock's board on 4th street, and I
> > have given him due credit :)
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Visit http://www.fellknight.com for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
> > (STILL IN BETA MODE)
>
>
> KoD used to be a regular here. What's up w/ that?
>
>
>
> HB
i chased his weak ass off, he couldn't handle me decimating him every time we
squared off.
_______________________________________________________________
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Howard Beale
Well, then, what the heck! Raise again on the river! THEN you can call
his re-raise and vomit.
HB
------
RedKnave
> On Jan 19 2006 11:04 AM, RedKnave wrote:
>
> > On Jan 19 2006 1:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> >
> > On 6th, you catch a trey,
> > > killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> > > here is there?)
> > >
> > > On 7th, ...
> >
> > Does it matter what he got on 6th street?
>
> Nah. He didn't open pair.
>
> Fell
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I hate to do it, but I have to show my ignorance here. Your senario set
it up with him having a K in the hole. He's a rock, but may overbet KK.
He bets and reraises when he gets a J, with you showing ragged cards.
Couldn't he reasonbly have an A, Q, J, T, 9 as his other down card? If so,
and he hit one of the others of them on 6th street, mightn't his last card
have completed his straight? Hoping to learn a bit about 7CS these days.
________________________________________________________________________
FellKnight
> On Jan 19 2006 2:13 PM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Jan 19 2006 11:04 AM, RedKnave wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 19 2006 1:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> > >
> > > On 6th, you catch a trey,
> > > > killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real
question
> > > > here is there?)
> > > >
> > > > On 7th, ...
> > >
> > > Does it matter what he got on 6th street?
> >
> > Nah. He didn't open pair.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Visit http://www.fellknight.com for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
> > (STILL IN BETA MODE)
>
> I hate to do it, but I have to show my ignorance here. Your senario set
> it up with him having a K in the hole. He's a rock, but may overbet KK.
> He bets and reraises when he gets a J, with you showing ragged cards.
> Couldn't he reasonbly have an A, Q, J, T, 9 as his other down card? If so,
> and he hit one of the others of them on 6th street, mightn't his last card
> have completed his straight? Hoping to learn a bit about 7CS these days.
Sure it could be, but it could be any sidecard. Kings are strong enough
to play no matter the kicker. He could have paired deuces on 4th, or
could still have nothing but Kings. Let's say that the straight is
possible, but highly unlikely, as he would need perfect perfect in the
hole (other than his paired King).
Fell
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ChrisBrown
> General question: What considerations do you take (other than the obvious
> live cards) when deciding whether or not to continue with a gutshot
> straight draw against a probable high pair?
my image and how pissed off the guy will be if i hit.
> Specific hand question: Assume a 10/20 table with a $1 ante, $3 bring-in.
> A 4 brings it in, and a rock with a King showing completes. You know he
> has Kings or better. You have an 8 up, and look down to find a 67
> two-flush in the hole. All 5s and 9s are live.
how many 4s and Ts are dead out of curiosity? just the one? how bout my
pair cards and flush cards? But yeah, i fold.
> On 4th, you catch an offsuit 4, he bricks(let's say a deuce). He bets
> again. Your play?
call.
> Assume you call. On 5th, you catch a Ten, he catches a Jack. You now
> have a very well disguised double gut-shot, and also a backdoor flush
> draw. He bets. You?
i don't think raising here knocks him off with my board. i call. with
what you're showing, u should be able to sqeeze some bets after you hit
your hand.
> Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
i don't see capping being too effective. i might do it anyway.
> Assume that you merely called the 3-bet. On 6th, you catch a trey,
> killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> here is there?)
>
> On 7th, you catch a 5. He looks at his 7th street card, and bets. You
> raise. He 3-bets. You?
he;s a rock. i'm not even certain i raise his lead.
-------
torx
3rd)
so i don't really like the raise with a double gutshot because it's
unlikely he will give a free card anyway, unless you cap, and even
then.... but you didn't specify.
on 6th i would just call as well.
on 7th, it's a pretty tough one, depending on read imho, does he overplay
kings on 7th ? kings up ? threesome ?
if yes i would cap, if no (and if unknown) i would just call the 3bet on
the river.
considerations of course include what chances does he have of hitting a
full house by the river, (does he only have kings, kings up, or trips).
what are the implied odds after hitting.
are there any other live draws.
of course immediate pot odds, but that's obvious.
-Alexander Knopf
http://letsbuypokerstars.com
FellKnight
affect your play on 5th or 7th?
Fell
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ChrisBrown
> Follow-up question: What hand do you think he thinks you have?
i assume none of my suits match. on 5th, at best 8s or Ts up after
raising 5th but not capping. yes it affects 7th.
> Does this
> affect your play on 5th or 7th?
>
> Fell
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> (STILL IN BETA MODE)
-------
San Te of the 36 Chambers
> General question: What considerations do you take (other than the obvious
> live cards) when deciding whether or not to continue with a gutshot
> straight draw against a probable high pair?
Mostly, I think about how likely it is for me to get paid off and also how
hidden the straight will be if I should hit it.
> Specific hand question: Assume a 10/20 table with a $1 ante, $3 bring-in.
> A 4 brings it in, and a rock with a King showing completes. You know he
> has Kings or better. You have an 8 up, and look down to find a 67
> two-flush in the hole. All 5s and 9s are live. You elect to call,
> knowing that this player will overplay unimproved Kings. All fold.
It is a tough call against a rock and an easy call against a loose guy.
I'll probably muck it unless my call will bring in another couple players.
If I know everyone will muck behind me, I probably do not play it. If I
know for sure the bring-in and the 4 will call, I play it. If I know for
sure the bring-in will muck, I may or may not call it depending on how
likely it is for me to get paid off when I make the hand.
> On 4th, you catch an offsuit 4, he bricks(let's say a deuce). He bets
> again. Your play?
Call.
> Assume you call. On 5th, you catch a Ten, he catches a Jack. You now
> have a very well disguised double gut-shot, and also a backdoor flush
> draw. He bets. You?
Call. The problem with raising is that he is not going to fold KK. The
only hand he can fold is a busted draw. The other problem is that he's
liable to raise back because it looks like you started with 79(8) and you
are raising with an open ender. You would have raised on 3rd with hidden
TT. And it is unlikely you are playing (8T)8 so what kind of hand are you
representing? I only make this raise against very weak beginners.
I will raise here against a person who will automatically raise 3rd if he
has the highest card showing. But that's not the person you've described
here.
Situation is different if I had a 4flush as well. At that point, I raise
for value.
>
> Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
No, too late to represent a hand and no semi-bluffing value.
> Assume that you merely called the 3-bet. On 6th, you catch a trey,
> killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> here is there?)
Call.
>
> On 7th, you catch a 5. He looks at his 7th street card, and bets. You
> raise. He 3-bets. You?
I call against a thinking player. You have a complete rag board and you
are raising. You have one of two hands. Either you were raising 2 pair
on 5th and made a boat or you were raising a straight draw and made a
straight. A thinking player is only re-raising with a full-house.
Against players who do not read the board well, I raise one more time
because he may be raising with 3 of a kind or two pair. But even against
them, i'm expecting to make a losing raise about 30% of the time.
-------
Douglas Dunn
FellKnight wrote:
> General question: What considerations do you take (other than the obvious
> live cards) when deciding whether or not to continue with a gutshot
> straight draw against a probable high pair?
>
> Specific hand question: Assume a 10/20 table with a $1 ante, $3 bring-in.
> A 4 brings it in, and a rock with a King showing completes. You know he
> has Kings or better. You have an 8 up, and look down to find a 67
> two-flush in the hole. All 5s and 9s are live. You elect to call,
> knowing that this player will overplay unimproved Kings. All fold.
>
> On 4th, you catch an offsuit 4, he bricks(let's say a deuce). He bets
> again. Your play?
I wouldn't call in the first place, but since we are assuming I did and
the bet is still small I call again.
>
> Assume you call. On 5th, you catch a Ten, he catches a Jack. You now
> have a very well disguised double gut-shot, and also a backdoor flush
> draw. He bets. You?
I've now picked up 8 lives outs that I know are good at this point. I
don't know if by overplay you mean he won't fold or he will reraise
like mad. Normally for a rock it just means they won't fold and since
he has the high card you'll have position unless you catch an ace. I
raise here.
>
> Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
>
Ok my assumption as to his play was either wrong or he has trip
kings/jacks. I call. He's definately not folding, and doubtfulling
giving a free card on the next street given that he 3 bet. You still
have 8 good outs at this point and have built a pot.
> Assume that you merely called the 3-bet. On 6th, you catch a trey,
> killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> here is there?)
I read down so I know he doesn't have an open pair - I call.
> On 7th, you catch a 5. He looks at his 7th street card, and bets. You
> raise. He 3-bets. You?
I don't make the laydown, but I do expect to lose this hand well over
90% of the time.
>
> Fell
> --
Doug
FellKnight
> again. Your play?
Calling is fine here.
> Assume you call. On 5th, you catch a Ten, he catches a Jack. You now
> have a very well disguised double gut-shot, and also a backdoor flush
> draw. He bets. You?
I suggest that it is a good raise here. Your hand will be disguised if
you hit it, and the raise here will deceive him as to what you have.
> Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
Knowing that he overplays Kings, and is very unlikely that he has anything
better than kings up here, I like a cap for the following reasons:
1. Although you raised for deception purposes and to find out where he
might be, the cap will put serious pressure on him. You are representing
rolled 8s or trip tens. Put yourself in his shoes... you cap the betting
with a board of 84T rainbow. What had would *you* put our hero on?
2. If you, as the hero, catches an open pair on 6th, you will likely
elicit a fold from unimproved Kings, and quite possibly from Kings up as
well. Also, even if you don't open pair, the rock will be very hard
pressed to call on 7th street with just Kings (I could see a crying call
from Kings up).
> Assume that you merely called the 3-bet. On 6th, you catch a trey,
> killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> here is there?)
Given our earlier action, no, no real question.
> On 7th, you catch a 5. He looks at his 7th street card, and bets. You
> raise. He 3-bets. You?
You crying call the raise, scared of the full house (you must assume that
he can at least beat trips). I do think that his 3-bet would be much more
strong if he 3-bet you after you had capped 5th.
Actual results: Rock says "2 pair no good", and shows his rivered King for
trip Kings. You show your straight, he chokes in disbeilief, and leaves
the game on tilt muttering about "not wanting to play the game with
assholes".
Fell
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--------
Aardvark
> General question: What considerations do you take (other than the obvious
> live cards) when deciding whether or not to continue with a gutshot
> straight draw against a probable high pair?
I forgot to mention these in my earlier post and really they're
absolutely the most important things to consider:
1. Am I "due"? If I haven't made a draw in awhile then I'm probably due
to hit one now, so I go for it!
2. Am I "hot"? If I've been making a lot of draws lately then I'm on a
rush, so I go for it!
3. What was my horoscope for the day? If Mars is in line with Jupiter
then it's a good sign, so I go for it!
In the event that all three of these conditions hold true, I'm capping
it all the way to the river.
-Tom.
Douglas Dunn
FellKnight wrote:
> On Jan 19 2006 10:56 AM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > You asked for general considerations and I'm not bothering to add up the
> > pot or anything like that. First, I don't like giving a rock any action
> > unless I'm very strong myself. The 5th street action should've told you
> > not to raise the river. He had Kings up or 3 Jacks. And you said he's a
> > rock who three bet you here. On the river he bet into a player who has
> > been playing him tough in the hand showing a final board of 8-4-10-3.
> > What is he to make of a mess like that? You did say a rock, right?
> > Unless you feel that he doesn't know you and has absolutely no respect for
> > your game at all I would've just called the river. As for his final
> > raise: I call and vomit.
> >
> > Edit: I just looked back and see that you said he would've over-played
> > unimproved Kings. Even so, his play here is a lot more than over-playing
> > don't you think? If all he's got here is Kings up he doesn't qualify as a
> > 'Rock' in my dictionary.
> >
> > Howard Beale
>
> Should specify: By rock, I meant he only plays good starting hands, and
> only raises with premiums. As I said, he will overplay the Kings later,
> so although the 5th street action could mean Kings up or trip Jacks, it
> could also still be Kings.
I'll buy that at this point it could mean Kings, but on the river he
has to be thinking about what you could have and given your board the
possibilities are in order of likelyhood: 1. straight 2. Started with
Aces in the hole and 2 paired or tripped on the river 3. started
rolled up/ hit 3 4's and now have filled up. To beat all of these
holdings except the aces up he has to be full or I don't remember his
suits but I guess its possible he backed into a flush. He hasn't been
able to afford playing for 30 years by being that reckless.
sincereq...@yahoo.com
SincereQuestioner
San Te of the 36 Chambers
> I suggest that it is a good raise here. Your hand will be disguised if
> you hit it, and the raise here will deceive him as to what you have.
What's the point of deceiving him about what you have? Your hand is
already disguised. Plus you will probably have position. Plus he
probably has a pair and he'll probably bet and you can raise him anyway.
Plus it is very unlikely he's going to fold. All of these factors makes
raising here a bad play.
I only prefer raising here if
a) there is chance he will muck
b) there is a chance that it will not only get me a free card but I
wouldn't be able to get a raise otherwise when I make my hand
c) there is a chance that I will get a free card and the pot would be too
small for me to draw on 6th
There is a chance at scenario b but in this situation, I know he's going
to bet even if I make my hand because it is well hidden. So, the free
card play doesn't really net me any additional bets... but it may cost me
if he has two pair already or if he's aggressive with KK (which he is as
it turns out)
> > Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
>
> Knowing that he overplays Kings, and is very unlikely that he has anything
> better than kings up here, I like a cap for the following reasons:
>
> 1. Although you raised for deception purposes and to find out where he
> might be, the cap will put serious pressure on him. You are representing
> rolled 8s or trip tens. Put yourself in his shoes... you cap the betting
> with a board of 84T rainbow. What had would *you* put our hero on?
I put him oither on a slowplayed monster or an open-ended straight draw.
If he's fishy, I might consider tens and eights.
But let's rethink what this has bought us. He's probably not going to
muck KK and you've now paid 4 big bets for a draw when you could have paid
1.
Now let's say you make a pair. Now you are out of position, you've put in
4 bets and now you are compelled to bet. You think he's automatically
going to muck? Depending on what you pair, if he puts you on 2 pair, he's
still probably going to put you on 3 pair and still thinks he can draw.
Or he might still put you on the open ended. People have a tendency not
to put you on slowplayed monsters when the action is weird - that's why
slowplays are effective.
>
> 2. If you, as the hero, catches an open pair on 6th, you will likely
> elicit a fold from unimproved Kings, and quite possibly from Kings up as
> well. Also, even if you don't open pair, the rock will be very hard
> pressed to call on 7th street with just Kings (I could see a crying call
> from Kings up).
If you do catch an open pair, he might fold that's true. But if he was
going to fold, he would have folded on 6th. That's a massive investment
to set up a thin scare card bluff. Most people will call with KK on the
river if he gets that far because you've made the pot too large. Also,
you've set up a situation where your semi-bluff cost you 4 big bets on 5th
and a bet each on 6th and 7th. That's 6 big bets to set up a bluff.
> Actual results: Rock says "2 pair no good", and shows his rivered King for
> trip Kings. You show your straight, he chokes in disbeilief, and leaves
> the game on tilt muttering about "not wanting to play the game with
> assholes".
Anyone who says '2 pair no good' there either cannot read a board or
thinks you are a maniac. Either way, against this guy, I will 4bet him
more in similar situations in the future.
iron81
On Jan 19 2006 12:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> General question: What considerations do you take (other than the obvious
> live cards) when deciding whether or not to continue with a gutshot
> straight draw against a probable high pair?
>
> Specific hand question: Assume a 10/20 table with a $1 ante, $3 bring-in.
> A 4 brings it in, and a rock with a King showing completes. You know he
> has Kings or better. You have an 8 up, and look down to find a 67
> two-flush in the hole. All 5s and 9s are live. You elect to call,
> knowing that this player will overplay unimproved Kings. All fold.
>
> On 4th, you catch an offsuit 4, he bricks(let's say a deuce). He bets
> again. Your play?
Fold. Its not particularly likely you'll make your straight, and there isn't
much money in the pot.
>
> Assume you call. On 5th, you catch a Ten, he catches a Jack. You now
> have a very well disguised double gut-shot, and also a backdoor flush
> draw. He bets. You?
Call. If he overplays his kings, you can't make a free card play on him. He
won't fold, and you're still a dog.
>
> Let's say that you raise. He 3-bets. Do you cap? Why or why not?
Hell no. Same reasons as above.
>
> Assume that you merely called the 3-bet. On 6th, you catch a trey,
> killing your backdoor flush draw. He bets. You call. (No real question
> here is there?)
Nope
>
> On 7th, you catch a 5. He looks at his 7th street card, and bets. You
> raise. He 3-bets. You?
Tough call. Normally at that level, a 3 bet means a boat. I would call,
because I just don't see a 3 bet from kings up very often here.
>
> Fell
> --
> Visit http://www.fellknight.com/ for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
> (STILL IN BETA MODE)
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