Do you like the Balkan cuisine?
cfc
One Traditional Balkan recipe: Ćevapcici - Grilled rolls of minced
beef and lamb, served with chopped fresh onion
[image:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7ZQq-oIClI/AAAAAAAAB1c/_cwJUZ1jKdo/sl4_cevapi_v.jpg]
[image:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7ZRPNjKgoI/AAAAAAAAB1g/hQB1iuic3hE/cevapi.jpg]
[image:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7ZR1zhfnSI/AAAAAAAAB18/QRNFmHD-nN0/cevapcici.jpg]
Ingredients
350g Premium Grade Minced Beef
150g minced lamb
2 garlic cloves, minced
50g onion, minced
40ml natural mineral water
20ml oil
hot chili to taste (optional)
pepper to taste
salt
Method:
1. Combine well all ingredients for Ćevapcici. Refrigerate
mixture over night.
2. Wet hands with water and shape the mixture into uniform rolls.
3. Cook the Ćevapcici on a hot lightly oiled barbecue grill or
frypan for 6-10 minutes, turning frequently.
4. Ćevapcici can be served on its own or between slices of flat
bread.
--
cfc
Wayne Boatwright
>
> One Traditional Balkan recipe: Ćevapcici - Grilled rolls of minced
> beef and lamb, served with chopped fresh onion
> [image:
> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7ZQq-oIClI/AAAAAAAAB1c/_cwJUZ1jKdo/sl4
> _cevapi_v.jpg] [image:
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7ZRPNjKgoI/AAAAAAAAB1g/hQB1iuic3hE/cev
> api.jpg] [image:
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7ZR1zhfnSI/AAAAAAAAB18/QRNFmHD-nN0/cev
> apcici.jpg] Ingredients
>
> 350g Premium Grade Minced Beef
> 150g minced lamb
> 2 garlic cloves, minced
> 50g onion, minced
> 40ml natural mineral water
> 20ml oil
> hot chili to taste (optional)
> pepper to taste
> salt
>
> Method:
>
> 1. Combine well all ingredients for Ćevapcici. Refrigerate
> mixture over night.
> 2. Wet hands with water and shape the mixture into uniform rolls.
> 3. Cook the Ćevapcici on a hot lightly oiled barbecue grill or
> frypan for 6-10 minutes, turning frequently.
> 4. Ćevapcici can be served on its own or between slices of flat
> bread.
They look and sound good!
--
~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~
**********************************************************
Wayne Boatwright
Giusi
"cfc" <cfc.5fc56...@foodbanter.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> One Traditional Balkan recipe: Ćevapcici - Grilled rolls of minced>
> beef and lamb, served with chopped fresh onion
YUM! Which language is making these symbols? I post from Europe, so I
don't usually see them.
Hey! That's a European recipe!
Michael Kuettner
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:81o6pd...@mid.individual.net...
>
> "cfc" <cfc.5fc56...@foodbanter.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> One Traditional Balkan recipe: Ćevapcici - Grilled rolls of minced>
>> beef and lamb, served with chopped fresh onion
>
> YUM! Which language is making these symbols? I post from Europe, so I
> don't usually see them.
>
> Hey! That's a European recipe!
Whether the Balkans is Europe is an old question ...
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
James Silverton
Greece is generally indubitably regarded as being in Europe and, altho'
the Balkans have been influenced by many other countries, they are
closer to Brussels than Greece.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Michael Kuettner
"James Silverton" schrieb :
> Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 12:00:19 +0200:
>
>
>>>
>>> "cfc" <cfc.5fc56...@foodbanter.com> ha scritto nel
>>> messaggio
>>>> One Traditional Balkan recipe: Ćevapcici - Grilled rolls of
>>>> minced> beef and lamb, served with chopped fresh onion
>>>
>>> YUM! Which language is making these symbols? I post from
>>> Europe, so I don't usually see them.
>>>
>> Slovenian & other Slavic languages.
>
>>> Hey! That's a European recipe!
>> Whether the Balkans is Europe is an old question ...
>
> Greece is generally indubitably regarded as being in Europe and, altho'
> the Balkans have been influenced by many other countries, they are
> closer to Brussels than Greece.
>
civil war ...
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Dave Smith
>
>>> Hey! That's a European recipe!
>> Whether the Balkans is Europe is an old question ...
>
> Greece is generally indubitably regarded as being in Europe and, altho'
> the Balkans have been influenced by many other countries, they are
> closer to Brussels than Greece.
>
Whether or not the Balkans are in Europe is a question that only the
geographically challenged would ask. They most definitely are.
As for the food... there was a Macedonian restaurant in our little town
for a while. We were there once. I was expecting the food to be
something like Greek food. It wasn't. It wasn't very good at all. We
never went back, and never recommended it to anyone. It only lasted a
few months.
James Silverton
That's a dangerous argument. Think of Germany/Austria in the 1930s and
40s.
Dave Smith
>>>
>>> Greece is generally indubitably regarded as being in Europe
>>> and, altho' the Balkans have been influenced by many other
>>> countries, they are closer to Brussels than Greece.
>>>
>> It's not a question of distance, but of mentality. Look at
>> Yugoslavian civil war ...
>
> That's a dangerous argument. Think of Germany/Austria in the 1930s and 40s.
Think of the Balkans as being part of the Austro Hungarian Empire until
the end of WW I.
Michael Kuettner
"James Silverton" schrieb :
> Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:44:26 +0200:
>
>
>> "James Silverton" schrieb :
>>> Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 12:00:19 +0200:
>>>
>>>> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> schrieb :
>>>>>
>>>>> "cfc" <cfc.5fc56...@foodbanter.com> ha scritto nel
>>>>> messaggio
>>>>>> One Traditional Balkan recipe: Ćevapcici - Grilled rolls of
>>>>> minced>> beef and lamb, served with chopped fresh onion
>>>>>
>>>>> YUM! Which language is making these symbols? I post from
>>>>> Europe, so I don't usually see them.
>>>>>
>>>> Slovenian & other Slavic languages.
>>>
>>>>> Hey! That's a European recipe!
>>>> Whether the Balkans is Europe is an old question ...
>>>
>>> Greece is generally indubitably regarded as being in Europe
>>> and, altho' the Balkans have been influenced by many other
>>> countries, they are closer to Brussels than Greece.
>>>
>> It's not a question of distance, but of mentality. Look at
>> Yugoslavian civil war ...
>
> That's a dangerous argument. Think of Germany/Austria in the 1930s and
> 40s.
>
(and have been for a very long time).
(b) If you want to make a point about Austria/Germany, you should do so.
I have no clue what you're trying to say.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
James Silverton
It is totally unnecessary to describe the mentality of the adults of
Germany/Austria during WWII. While now practically all the Nazis are
dead, genocide is hardly to be described as a qualification for
membership in Europe.
Michael Kuettner
You know that the NSDAP was illegal in Austria until Schuschnigg caved
in after Mussolini made his pact with Hitler ? No, propably not.
You know that the Austrian Nazis were shot when they tried an armed
take-over of the state ? No, propably not.
Please don't try to lecture about things you don't have a clue about.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
And a little PS : Only one 33 percent of the Germans voted for Hitler.
James Silverton
That is the version of history which many Austrians like to believe.
There are numerous pictures of happy cheering Austrians during the
so-called Anchluss.
For some see http://www.thirdreichruins.com/austria.htm
I have long been impressed by this post in rec.travel.europe.
From - Wed Jan 07 23:00:19 1998
From: fra...@aol.com (Frank)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
Subject: Re: Nazis in EuropeЕЕЕ..
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 17:32:58 GMT
This has the original spelling, punctuation apart from obvious glitches,
etc. (JVS)
Let me tell you about the forcible takeover of Austria by Germany. I was
Austrian born, deeply catholic and nationalistic minded. My father
worked at the post office in Vienna. I was 17 years old in 1938 when the
events of the Anschluss took place . All around me, as well my parents
as our friends as all the neighborhood were totally supporting the
Schuschnig government and as this didn't give us the expected
satisfaction , most of the people (certainly 3/4) turned to this new
man, Seyss-Inquart, extreme populist right wing admirer of Hitler. I
remember him well. I saw him on several propaganda meetings where my
father took me. A virulent antisemite, for whom only the nazi german
example was the road to follow.
The day of March 11 1938 I will never forget. In the morning the word
spread around that 200.000 german soldiers were massed at the border,
ready to march into Austria. We all went out in the streets, shouting
enthusiaticly,. The crowd denses more and more. Comments like "it's high
time we sweep this country clean from jews and communists" are heard all
around. People are waiting, waiting, and walking on the Ring. The
Deutsch Reichsbahn office situated on the ground floor of the Bristol
hotel displays a huge portrait of Hitler. I remember clearly how huge
crowds laid down immense flower bouquets under the portrait.
When the police orders people to move and disperse, they shout "death to
Schusschnig! death to the Jews! One people, one Reich, one Fuhrer!"
I was 17 and had my own opinions, which were not especially pro jewish,
but all this hatred disgusted me a little. Nevertheless I hid this
feelings safely; my courage was not suicidal at that moment! The
situation became more and more chaotic with the hour. Nazi sympathisants
blocked all streets and started to collect money on the Neuermarkt,
Tegethoffstraase, around the Opera. Police remained passive. Soon S.A.
and S.S. Austrians in UNIFORM (Yes) patrolled together with the common
police. I didn't realise then what this meant, I do now. .
The next day March 12 1938 we woke up with the noise of German planes
flying over Vienna. It were bombers unloading masses of tracts and
leaflets where you could read "National Socialist Germany salutes and
greets his new territory, National Socialist Austria and his new
government in a sincere and indissociable unity." We hear the whole show
on the radio: at sunrise the frontier barriers are opened without a
gunshot and the infantery of the 8th army marches in. At 9 am general
Veiel pushes his 5th and 7th armoured bataljon through Linz and
St.Polten. At 9.12 am precisely general Guderian crosses over with the
gross of his Panzerdivision. Finally, the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler
closes the first wave. Not a gun shot, not a resistance whatsoever.
Grosses victory for the Reich who merely marries a long promised bride.
I heard later from relatives living on the passages of the "invaders"
(?) they were received by the people along the roads with tears of joy,
offered gifts, chocolats, bonbons. Tanks are buried under thousands of
flowers.
Enough of all that. My parents lived unharmed through the war, so did I.
I developped a conscience growing older and am still shocked that my
country posed as a victim of Nazi Germany. That's not what I saw. I
emigrated in 1948 to Chicago and live there happily since. I returned a
few times to Austria, homesick as you can imgine. Vienna is still a
tremendous beautiful city, the country is still overwhelming with
breathtaking sceneries, walder, meeren, bergen. But damn, damn, people
didn't change much. Still the exterior freundlichkeit and the inner
distrust and jealousy of the stranger and the eternal devil, bearer of
all misery, the Jew, remains. I'm 78 now and I'm kind of glad I didn't
stick around after the war, as an Austrian I couldnt look people in the
eyes without a deep shame, that's my character, nothing can change that.
Frank Keheler
blake murphy
i thought it was a question of whiteness...
your pal,
blake
Giusi
"Michael Kuettner" <Michael....@gmx.at> ha scritto nel messaggio>
> "James Silverton" schrieb :
they are >> closer to Brussels than Greece.
>>
> It's not a question of distance, but of mentality. Look at Yugoslavian>
> civil war ...
It always reminded me of the Irish, a bit.
Don Martinich
Dave Smith <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
More importantly, the greater area of the Balkans was part of the
weakening Ottoman Empire. That background combined with the meddling of
the 19th century European "Powers" which resulted in the 1878 Treaty of
Berlin condemned the region to over a century of warfare.
OB Balkan food: Cevapcici (cheh-vahp-chi-chi) often contains some hot
paprika as well as the ingredients previously listed. It is often served
with chopped raw onions and ajvar on the side.
cfc
Let's talk about the balkan FOOD,please. OK? Tomorrow I send another
good recipe.
--
cfc
Michael Kuettner
"James Silverton" schrieb :
> Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:55:49 +0200:
<snip>
>>>
>> You know that Austria was annexed in 1938 ? No, propably not.
>> You know that the NSDAP was illegal in Austria until
>> Schuschnigg caved in after Mussolini made his pact with Hitler
>> ? No, propably not. You know that the Austrian Nazis were shot
>> when they tried an armed take-over of the state ? No, propably
>> not.
>
> That is the version of history which many Austrians like to believe.
Those are the facts.
Some pictures and an anecdote doesn't change them.
> There are numerous pictures of happy cheering Austrians during the
> so-called Anchluss.
>
Yes, there were many who cheered.
If you look at the Austrian borders after 1918, you'll also see why.
Have you ever heard of the many millions of German speakers who
were forced off their land and forced to leave ? No, propably not.
Ever heard of the "300-Reichsmark-Sperre" that the Germans used
to choke our tourism industry ? No, propably not.
People who were first dispossessed and then forced out of work tend
to look for a saviour ...
<snip anecdote>
Except for :
>All around me, as well my parents as our friends as all the neighborhood
>were totally supporting the Schuschnig government and as this didn't give
>us the expected satisfaction , most of the people (certainly 3/4) turned to
>this new man, Seyss-Inquart, extreme populist right wing admirer of Hitler.
>I remember him well. I saw him on several propaganda meetings where my
>father took me. A virulent antisemite, for whom only the nazi german
>example was the road to follow.
Note the support of the Schuschnig government. Neither he nor his
party were Nazis.
Seyss-Inquart came into the government because Schuschnig also gave in
to Hitler here.
That are only some of the facts which our "Frank" seems to have forgotten
along with his German.
> I emigrated in 1948 to Chicago and live there happily since. I returned
> a few times to Austria, homesick as you can imgine. Vienna is still a
> tremendous beautiful city, the country is still overwhelming with
> breathtaking sceneries, walder, meeren, bergen. But damn, damn, people
Anyone who seas "meeren" = oceans in Austria isn't exactly a trustworthy
source for information.
> didn't change much. Still the exterior freundlichkeit and the inner
> distrust and jealousy of the stranger and the eternal devil, bearer of all
> misery, the Jew, remains.
And that's obvious nonsense.
It's rather hard to be an "Arier" when half of your ancestors are named
Travnicek, Posbischil, Hrdlicka or similar.
Look at the phone book of Vienna to see what I mean.
You could also look up how many Austrians voted for the NSDAP before
the party was forbidden in Austria (hint : not too many).
> I'm 78 now and I'm kind of glad I didn't stick around after the war, as an
> Austrian I couldnt look people in the eyes without a deep shame, that's my
> character, nothing can change that.
>
I wander what Frank and his family did during the war ...
Yes, there was scum in my country; but it only rose to the top after 1938.
And it went to the bottom again after 1945.
Every country has those people - remember Charles Lindberg and Henry
Ford ?
But feel free to continue to ignore the facts.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Michael Kuettner
"blake murphy" schrieb :
In 1968, Martin Luther King was murdered in the land of the free
because he demanded equal rights.
In 1970, we elected an Austrian Jew as head of government
(Bundeskanzler) - Bruno Kreisky - because we're a bunch a
virulent racist Antisemites.
Something doesn't sound right here ....
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
James Silverton
> Let's talk about the balkan FOOD,please. OK? Tomorrow I send
> another good recipe.
Yes, I'd like to see another irecipe nstead of the profitless discussion
of whether and why the Balkans are in Europe.
cfc
Serbian Stuffed Peppers - Punjene Paprike
[image:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7eSNCJVASI/AAAAAAAAB3Q/Zeatncb391M/paprika.jpg]
[image:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7eSGDlrxDI/AAAAAAAAB20/YWKjUWGKNHg/1punjenapaprikasbb6.jpg]
[image:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7eRcFCt3JI/AAAAAAAAB2w/QeRVT-rn9ZU/paprika2.jpg]
Ingredients:
1 large onion or two small onions
1 cup of rice
5 green peppers
1 pound of ground beef
3 tbsp of sweet "aleva"red paprika
3 tbsp of Vegeta seasoning
1 tbsp of tomato paste
2 tbsp of flour
2 tbsp of vegetable oil
Method:
To make the stuffing, dice the onion into small pieces and saute it
until it turns a nice yellow color (about 10 minutes). Combine this
onion with the ground beef and brown the meat until cooked through.
Remove from the heat. At this point, add in the uncooked rice, vegeta,
and 2 tbsp of paprika. Salt and pepper to taste.
Put the stuffing to the side to cool for a little bit. Take this time to
wash your peppers. Cut off the tops and remove the seeds from the inside
of the peppers. Be sure to keep the tops to cover the peppers again
later.
Stuff your peppers and place them into the pot. Be sure to place them
tightly together and do not leave wiggle room. Don't forget to replace
the tops onto the peppers. Fill the pot with water around the peppers up
just up to the beginning opening of the pepper tops.
Cook the peppers on medium to low heat for about 1.5 to 2 hours. Make
sure they do not boil the entire time or else the peppers will fall
apart.
When the peppers are done, it is time to make the zaprska (roux). Heat
the oil in a pan until it is hot and add the flour. Be sure to whisk
quickly so that the roux does not burn or harden. Add the last tbsp of
Hungarian Paprika, and the tomato paste. Whisk until the roux comes
together. Then add 1 cup of water.
Remove the zaprska from the heat and add into the boiling pot holding
your stuffed peppers. Bring to a boil and remove all from the heat. At
this time, the color of the broth should be a reddish color.
Enjoy!
--
cfc
brooklyn1
<cfc.5fe51...@foodbanter.com> wrote:
>
>Serbian Stuffed Peppers - Punjene Paprike
>
>[image:
>http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7eSNCJVASI/AAAAAAAAB3Q/Zeatncb391M/paprika.jpg]
>[image:
>http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7eSGDlrxDI/AAAAAAAAB20/YWKjUWGKNHg/1punjenapaprikasbb6.jpg]
>[image:
>http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jR3feX8uQjw/S7eRcFCt3JI/AAAAAAAAB2w/QeRVT-rn9ZU/paprika2.jpg]
I like stuffed peppers a lot, but I prefer to cut them lengthwise
right through the stem so each half has a stem (results in twice as
many) and I bake them in a tomato sauce... stuffed peppers in a pot on
stovetop is a new one to me. I like to serve stuffed peppers on a bed
of rice, I don't like any rice inside the peppers. In place of the
cap I spoon some sauce over, sometimes some cheese too. Peppers are
also good stuffed with a ground pork mixture, with a sweet and sour
sauce, with pineapple.
James Silverton
I'm not a great fan of prepared seasoning mixtures, so what is Vegeta?
Perhaps you could list its ingredients.
Dave Smith
>>>> It's not a question of distance, but of mentality. Look at
>>>> Yugoslavian civil war ...
>>> That's a dangerous argument. Think of Germany/Austria in the 1930s and 40s.
>> Think of the Balkans as being part of the Austro Hungarian Empire until
>> the end of WW I.
>
> More importantly, the greater area of the Balkans was part of the
> weakening Ottoman Empire. That background combined with the meddling of
> the 19th century European "Powers" which resulted in the 1878 Treaty of
> Berlin condemned the region to over a century of warfare.
The Europeans are responsible for the ethnic animosities in the Balkans?
The Balkans were part of the Ottoman empire only because the Turks had
fought long and hard to seize them and it was a struggle for the
Europeans to hold off the Turks at Austria. Think of Europe as a region
in which numerous cultures existed and survived despite the rise and
fall of a succession of empires and attempted genocides.
>
> OB Balkan food: Cevapcici (cheh-vahp-chi-chi) often contains some hot
> paprika as well as the ingredients previously listed. It is often served
> with chopped raw onions and ajvar on the side.
I keep thinking about that very unappealing meal I had in the short
lived local Macedonian restaurant. It was a sort of casserole with an
omelet sort of base and very bland diced chicken on top.
Michael Kuettner
"Dave Smith" schrieb :
> Don Martinich wrote:
>
>>>>> It's not a question of distance, but of mentality. Look at
>>>>> Yugoslavian civil war ...
>>>> That's a dangerous argument. Think of Germany/Austria in the 1930s and
>>>> 40s.
>>> Think of the Balkans as being part of the Austro Hungarian Empire until
>>> the end of WW I.
>>
>> More importantly, the greater area of the Balkans was part of the
>> weakening Ottoman Empire. That background combined with the meddling of
>> the 19th century European "Powers" which resulted in the 1878 Treaty of
>> Berlin condemned the region to over a century of warfare.
>
> The Europeans are responsible for the ethnic animosities in the Balkans?
Those animosities aren't even ethnic, for the most part.
More along the line of clans and blood-feuds.
Other parts of the Balkans are modern and "westernized".
But on the whole, they are like a pressure-cooker under full steam.
Don't open the lid ...
> The Balkans were part of the Ottoman empire only because the Turks had
> fought long and hard to seize them and it was a struggle for the Europeans
> to hold off the Turks at Austria. Think of Europe as a region in which
> numerous cultures existed and survived despite the rise and fall of a
> succession of empires and attempted genocides.
>
Not the Turks, the Ottomans.
Yes, the Turks ruled the empire at the end, but they were only one part
of the Ottoman empire. The attempts to conquer Europe started long before
the Turks came to power.
Plus, I wouldn't say "empires", but "regimes". Think of France, for example.
Although they went through some rapid changes of regimes, the country
remained the same.
>
>
>>
>> OB Balkan food: Cevapcici (cheh-vahp-chi-chi) often contains some hot
>> paprika as well as the ingredients previously listed. It is often served
>> with chopped raw onions and ajvar on the side.
>
>
> I keep thinking about that very unappealing meal I had in the short lived
> local Macedonian restaurant. It was a sort of casserole with an omelet
> sort of base and very bland diced chicken on top.
That's the fault of the restaurant kitchen. I can think of some tasty dishes
from that region; be it stuffed lamb or grilled bell-peppers. Whether those
dishes are Greek, Macedonian(FYROMese ;-P)), Bulgarian or any other
Balkan countries' specialities, I leave to those hotheads to sort out ...
;-)
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Dave Smith
> Yes, the Turks ruled the empire at the end, but they were only one part
> of the Ottoman empire. The attempts to conquer Europe started long before
> the Turks came to power.
> Plus, I wouldn't say "empires", but "regimes". Think of France, for
> example.
I would say "empire". since that refers to a collection of states and
FWIW. there was a French empire. Since you know something about history
and European history, you will know that at one time it was made up of
various tribes or cultural groups,evolved into kingdoms and city states
end eventually into countries. Due to various wars, their boundaries
changed from time to time, and then we ended up with enclaves of various
ethnic groups within the borders of other countries. Then there were
nationalist moves within some of those countries which led to rebellions
and civil wars.
> Although they went through some rapid changes of regimes, the country
> remained the same.
The countries did no remain the same. Countries have been dissolved into
empires and, on occasion, re-emerged as countries. Poland is an
example of that. Poland ceased to exist in the late 18th century but
part of it became a country again when the borders of Europe were
re-mapped at the end of WWI.
>>
>> I keep thinking about that very unappealing meal I had in the short
>> lived local Macedonian restaurant. It was a sort of casserole with an
>> omelet sort of base and very bland diced chicken on top.
>
> That's the fault of the restaurant kitchen. I can think of some tasty
> dishes
> from that region; be it stuffed lamb or grilled bell-peppers. Whether those
> dishes are Greek, Macedonian(FYROMese ;-P)), Bulgarian or any other
> Balkan countries' specialities, I leave to those hotheads to sort out
I am not a big fan of stuffed peppers. If there had been lamb on the
menu I likely would have had it. After studying the menu for some time,
that was the meal I ordered, and I was not at all impressed.
Michael Kuettner
"Dave Smith" <adavid...@sympatico.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9X3un.845$aC2...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Michael Kuettner wrote:
>
>> Yes, the Turks ruled the empire at the end, but they were only one part
>> of the Ottoman empire. The attempts to conquer Europe started long before
>> the Turks came to power.
>> Plus, I wouldn't say "empires", but "regimes". Think of France, for
>> example.
>
> I would say "empire". since that refers to a collection of states and
> FWIW. there was a French empire.
Yes, France and its colonies.
But France is still France, although it has lost its colonies.
> Since you know something about history and European history, you will know
> that at one time it was made up of various tribes or cultural
> groups,evolved into kingdoms and city states end eventually into
> countries.
I wouldn't use the term "evolve" in this context.
Let's just say : There were and are cultural groups, which finally came
together
in one or more states.
But you are correct with your use of "cultural groups". That's roughly what
defines nowadays borders.
> Due to various wars, their boundaries changed from time to time, and then
> we ended up with enclaves of various ethnic groups within the borders of
> other countries. Then there were nationalist moves within some of those
> countries which led to rebellions and civil wars.
>
Depends on the country and what you call "civil war".
You had your civil war; we had mostly religious wars.
Oh, and of course wars about borders, taxes, etc ;-P
>> Although they went through some rapid changes of regimes, the country
>> remained the same.
>
> The countries did no remain the same. Countries have been dissolved into
> empires and, on occasion, re-emerged as countries. Poland is an example of
> that. Poland ceased to exist in the late 18th century but part of it
> became a country again when the borders of Europe were re-mapped at the
> end of WWI.
>
Yes. And it immediately attacked its neighbours under Pilsudski.
Thank you, Woodrow Wilson ;-P
>>>
>>> I keep thinking about that very unappealing meal I had in the short
>>> lived local Macedonian restaurant. It was a sort of casserole with an
>>> omelet sort of base and very bland diced chicken on top.
>>
>> That's the fault of the restaurant kitchen. I can think of some tasty
>> dishes
>> from that region; be it stuffed lamb or grilled bell-peppers. Whether
>> those
>> dishes are Greek, Macedonian(FYROMese ;-P)), Bulgarian or any other
>> Balkan countries' specialities, I leave to those hotheads to sort out
>
>
> I am not a big fan of stuffed peppers.
Those peppers aren't stuffed.
Cut them into "ships" (Lengthwise, so that you get little "bowls"), after
you
removed the seeds.
Make a mix of some sharp, finely grated cheese, salt, pepper, hot or sweet
powdered paprika and olive oil. Coat the bell pepper with olive oil, fill
the
cheese mix into the "bowl" and throw them on the grill.
A nice snack or side-dish.
> If there had been lamb on the menu I likely would have had it. After
> studying the menu for some time, that was the meal I ordered, and I was
> not at all impressed.
Yes, I can understand that. We have a variety of "Balkan-Restaurants"
here. Some are mediocre and bad, but some serve really good dishes.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Dave Smith
>>> the Turks came to power.
>>> Plus, I wouldn't say "empires", but "regimes". Think of France, for
>>> example.
>>
>> I would say "empire". since that refers to a collection of states and
>> FWIW. there was a French empire.
>
> Yes, France and its colonies.
> But France is still France, although it has lost its colonies.
No, France and the territory it occupied in Europe, which included
Spain, Hollands, Belgium, the Duchy of Warsaw, parts of Italy and
Germany. By the early 1800s they had already lost Canada to the British
and sold Louisiana to the US.
>> Since you know something about history and European history, you will
>> know that at one time it was made up of various tribes or cultural
>> groups,evolved into kingdoms and city states end eventually into
>> countries.
>
> I wouldn't use the term "evolve" in this context.
> Let's just say : There were and are cultural groups, which finally came
> together in one or more states.
I used the term evolve because it was a more or less gradual change.
Borders changed as various groups invaded their neighbours or were
invaded. Different groups moved in and displaced the local population,
or assimilated with it. Look at the British Isles. While there were
people native to the land there was also a succession of invasions, the
Celts,Romans, Vikings, the Angles, Saxons. Normans. Somewhere along the
line there were a number of kingdoms the eventually merged into the
separate countries of England, Wales, Scotland Wales and Ireland, then
into the UK, and then Ireland became independent. That is evolution.
Similar events were happening in eastern Europe, and in the rest of the
world.
> But you are correct with your use of "cultural groups". That's roughly what
> defines nowadays borders.
Borders are now established by international treaties and are clearly
defined. In days of yore, borders were more or less fluid and depended
on the ruler's ability to keep others out. There are not many areas in
Europe where the local population is and always has been homogenous.
>> Due to various wars, their boundaries changed from time to time, and
>> then we ended up with enclaves of various ethnic groups within the
>> borders of other countries. Then there were nationalist moves within
>> some of those countries which led to rebellions and civil wars.
>>
> Depends on the country and what you call "civil war".
> You had your civil war; we had mostly religious wars.
> Oh, and of course wars about borders, taxes, etc ;-P
We did not have a civil war in my country. There was one to the south of
us. Religious wars? Religion and politics were tightly interwoven, but
there were still wars when almost everyone was Catholic, and the much
longer conflict between Christians and Muslims.
>> The countries did no remain the same. Countries have been dissolved
>> into empires and, on occasion, re-emerged as countries. Poland is an
>> example of that. Poland ceased to exist in the late 18th century but
>> part of it became a country again when the borders of Europe were
>> re-mapped at the end of WWI.
>>
> Yes. And it immediately attacked its neighbours under Pilsudski.
> Thank you, Woodrow Wilson ;-P
No need to thank Wilson. While he had an inordinate amount of influence
on the terms of the Versailles treaty, considering their late arrival to
the war, the US never ratified it.
>>> dishes are Greek, Macedonian(FYROMese ;-P)), Bulgarian or any other
>>> Balkan countries' specialities, I leave to those hotheads to sort out
>>
>>
>> I am not a big fan of stuffed peppers.
>
> Those peppers aren't stuffed.
> Cut them into "ships" (Lengthwise, so that you get little "bowls"),
> after you
> removed the seeds.
Stuffed pepper.... half peppers stuffed.... it is still a lot of pepper
with stuff stuffed into them.
> Make a mix of some sharp, finely grated cheese, salt, pepper, hot or sweet
> powdered paprika and olive oil. Coat the bell pepper with olive oil,
> fill the
> cheese mix into the "bowl" and throw them on the grill.
> A nice snack or side-dish.
>
>> If there had been lamb on the menu I likely would have had it. After
>> studying the menu for some time, that was the meal I ordered, and I
>> was not at all impressed.
>
> Yes, I can understand that. We have a variety of "Balkan-Restaurants"
> here. Some are mediocre and bad, but some serve really good dishes.
Perhaps it was especially disappointing because I like Greek food and,
considering their proximity to one another, I thought that Macedonian
food would be more like Greek.....better.
Victor Sack
> I'm not a great fan of prepared seasoning mixtures, so what is Vegeta?
It is a mixture popular in Eastern Europe; it is produced in Croatia.
> Perhaps you could list its ingredients.
Table salt, dried vegetables 15.5% (carrots, parsnips, onions, celery,
parsley leaves), flavour enhancer (monosodium glutamate, disodium
inosinate), sugar, spices, corn starch, colouring (riboflavin).
Victor
Michael Kuettner
"Dave Smith" schrieb :
> Michael Kuettner wrote:
>
>>>> the Turks came to power.
>>>> Plus, I wouldn't say "empires", but "regimes". Think of France, for
>>>> example.
>>>
>>> I would say "empire". since that refers to a collection of states and
>>> FWIW. there was a French empire.
>>
>> Yes, France and its colonies.
>> But France is still France, although it has lost its colonies.
>
> No, France and the territory it occupied in Europe, which included Spain,
> Hollands, Belgium, the Duchy of Warsaw, parts of Italy and Germany. By the
> early 1800s they had already lost Canada to the British and sold Louisiana
> to the US.
>
as it was in the 9th century .
Except that it finally managed to get Elsass-Lothringen ;-P
>
>>> Since you know something about history and European history, you will
>>> know that at one time it was made up of various tribes or cultural
>>> groups,evolved into kingdoms and city states end eventually into
>>> countries.
>>
>> I wouldn't use the term "evolve" in this context.
>> Let's just say : There were and are cultural groups, which finally came
>> together in one or more states.
>
>
> I used the term evolve because it was a more or less gradual change.
> Borders changed as various groups invaded their neighbours or were
> invaded. Different groups moved in and displaced the local population, or
> assimilated with it.
OK...
Let us look at Venice and the other city states there. So they evolved
into city states and devolved into nowadays Italy later ?
Btw : No invasions in Northern Italy.
> Look at the British Isles.
No, I won't. The Isles have few things in common with
Continental Europe; they are a special case (as every European
country is ;-P).
One of the common errors of Anglo-Saxon historiographers is
that they take the British system and try to project it on the rest
of Europe.
> While there were people native to the land there was also a succession of
> invasions, the Celts,Romans, Vikings, the Angles, Saxons. Normans.
Celts were no peoples. Yes, I've dug them up on Duerrnberg, Austria.
The more you look at them, the more elusive they become.
I'd call them a proto-nation. Shortly before they could become a people,
they were squashed between the Romans and the Germanic tribes.
The "invasion" theory of the Angles and Saxons doesn't fit with the
new genetic profiles, btw.
> Somewhere along the line there were a number of kingdoms the eventually
> merged into the separate countries of England, Wales, Scotland Wales and
> Ireland, then into the UK, and then Ireland became independent. That is
> evolution. Similar events were happening in eastern Europe, and in the
> rest of the world.
>
No, that's not evolution, but random change.
Now, think about this for 5 minutes :
If there had been primogeniture in the times of Carolus Magnus,
how would Europe look today ?
Imagine the Frankia not divided into 3 parts ...
>> But you are correct with your use of "cultural groups". That's roughly
>> what
>> defines nowadays borders.
>
> Borders are now established by international treaties and are clearly
> defined. In days of yore, borders were more or less fluid and depended on
> the ruler's ability to keep others out. There are not many areas in Europe
> where the local population is and always has been homogenous.
>
Nope. Let's just take a look at 1871 - the Franko-Prussian war.
The Prussians took Lothringen - but not a single piece of French territory.
The population is and was homogenous in most parts of Europe.
At least until 1918, when the ignorant Yank Wilson reshaped the continent.
That led directly to WW II ....
>
>>> Due to various wars, their boundaries changed from time to time, and
>>> then we ended up with enclaves of various ethnic groups within the
>>> borders of other countries. Then there were nationalist moves within
>>> some of those countries which led to rebellions and civil wars.
>>>
>> Depends on the country and what you call "civil war".
>> You had your civil war; we had mostly religious wars.
>> Oh, and of course wars about borders, taxes, etc ;-P
>
>
> We did not have a civil war in my country. There was one to the south of
> us. Religious wars? Religion and politics were tightly interwoven, but
> there were still wars when almost everyone was Catholic, and the much
> longer conflict between Christians and Muslims.
>
We were talking about Europe here; the Muslims were the invaders.
Plus : Sorry, I didn't know that you are a Canadian.
>
>>> The countries did no remain the same. Countries have been dissolved into
>>> empires and, on occasion, re-emerged as countries. Poland is an example
>>> of that. Poland ceased to exist in the late 18th century but part of it
>>> became a country again when the borders of Europe were re-mapped at the
>>> end of WWI.
>>>
>> Yes. And it immediately attacked its neighbours under Pilsudski.
>> Thank you, Woodrow Wilson ;-P
>
> No need to thank Wilson. While he had an inordinate amount of influence on
> the terms of the Versailles treaty, considering their late arrival to the
> war, the US never ratified it.
>
They also never ratified the Nuremberg laws; otherwise Bush would be
tried and executed for waging a war of aggression.
The USA have a long history of interfering with other countries but refusing
to let the same rules apply to them.
>
>
>>>> dishes are Greek, Macedonian(FYROMese ;-P)), Bulgarian or any other
>>>> Balkan countries' specialities, I leave to those hotheads to sort out
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not a big fan of stuffed peppers.
>>
>> Those peppers aren't stuffed.
>> Cut them into "ships" (Lengthwise, so that you get little "bowls"), after
>> you
>> removed the seeds.
>
>
> Stuffed pepper.... half peppers stuffed.... it is still a lot of pepper
> with stuff stuffed into them.
>
Bell peppers ;-)
<snip>
>> Yes, I can understand that. We have a variety of "Balkan-Restaurants"
>> here. Some are mediocre and bad, but some serve really good dishes.
>
> Perhaps it was especially disappointing because I like Greek food and,
> considering their proximity to one another, I thought that Macedonian food
> would be more like Greek.....better.
Macedonians aren't Greek. At least the Greeks claim that, while FYROM
claims exactly otherwise, or not, depending on the day.
Welcome to the Balkans ;-P
Cheers and a Happy Easter,
Michael Kuettner
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "James Silverton" schrieb :
>
> > Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:10:55 +0200:
>
> >> "James Silverton" schrieb :
> >>> Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:44:26 +0200:
>
> >>>> "James Silverton" schrieb :
> >>>>> Michael wrote on Sat, 3 Apr 2010 12:00:19 +0200:
>
>
> >>>>>>> "cfc" <cfc.5fc56d8.823...@foodbanter.com> ha scritto nel
You know that even back in 1936, Jews were banned from the Austrian
film industry? No, probably not. You know that per capita, more
Austrians than Germans joined SS? No, probably not.
> Please don't try to lecture about things you don't have a clue about.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael Kuettner
>
> And a little PS : Only one 33 percent of the Germans voted for Hitler.
"Only" 33%? Not enough for you?
And that was in 1933. In 1936, 98.8% of Germans voted for Hitler and
the Nazi Party.
Juan Anonly
>> And a little PS : Only one 33 percent of the Germans voted for Hitler.
>
> "Only" 33%? Not enough for you?
>
> And that was in 1933. In 1936, 98.8% of Germans voted for Hitler and
> the Nazi Party.
A point of curiousity: Who was running against Adolf that year?
--
-- Beware the delicate, tiny, very talented celebrity starlets.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On 2010-04-05 22:17:45 -0700, Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. said:
>
> >> And a little PS : Only one 33 percent of the Germans voted for Hitler.
>
> > "Only" 33%? Not enough for you?
>
> > And that was in 1933. In 1936, 98.8% of Germans voted for Hitler and
> > the Nazi Party.
>
> A point of curiousity: Who was running against Adolf that year?
>
According to Wiki, it was a yes-no referendum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1936
The third Nazi plebiscite, this German referendum was held on March
29, 1936. The purpose of the referendum was to obtain public support
for the military occupation of the Rhineland and approve of a single
party list composed exclusively by Nazi candidates for the new
Reichstag. Like previous Nazi referendums, it was characterized by
high turnout, voter intimidation and a massively one-sided result,
with an official 99,0% turnout[2].
Party % of votes
Nazi 98.8%[3]
No 1.2%
Total 100%