When you think of osso buco...

[Bob Terwilliger]

What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?

Bob

[Storrmmee]

i know nothing ab out it, maybe you can talk more about it? Lee
"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote in message
news:4eb3b57e$0$21175$c3e8da3$e408...@news.astraweb.com...

[Phred]

In article <4eb3b57e$0$21175$c3e8da3$e408...@news.astraweb.com>, "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
>What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
>What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?

Stew.

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerk...@THISyahoo.com.INVALID

[Pico Rico]

"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote in message
news:4eb3b57e$0$21175$c3e8da3$e408...@news.astraweb.com...

> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>
> Bob
>

I don't understand why there is any question here. Veal shank, braise,
risotto Milanese. It is pretty standard stuff (and fantastic).

[pavane]

"Pico Rico" <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote in message
news:j90p32$7br$1...@dont-email.me...

The term has been corrupted and is now sneaking into common
usage to mean any tough chunk of meat on a bone, braised.
I have seen pork shank osso buco, lamb shank osso buco,
no beef yet although it will come, it will come. A chef friend
attributes this change in usage to the increased expense of
good veal, which has priced the dish off of many restaurants,
and the apparent willingness of the Great Public to swallow
(literally, in this case) a fraud-turned-common practice.

pavane

[Brooklyn1]

Phred wrote:

>Terwilliger wrote:
>>What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
>>What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>
>Stew.

What used to be peasant stew.
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Osso-Buco-11052

Braised breast of veal is a much better route/value.
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Matzo-Stuffed-Breast-of-Veal-107600

Even better is one of my signature dishes:
Teliatyna z Pidlyvoiu Iz Ikry (Braised Veal With Caviar Sauce)

To serve 6 to 8

3 tablespoons of butter
1 cup of thinly sliced onions
1 carrot, scraped and cut into 1/2 inch rounds
4 sprigs of parsley
2 stalks of celery with their leaves, cut into 2-inch lengths
3 bay leaves
3 whole cloves
1 tablespoon of finely chopped lemon peel
3 tablespoons of vegetable oil
3 1/ 2 to 4-pounds of boneless veal, cut from either the leg or the
rump and securely tied
1 cup of dry white wine (Sauvignon Blanc)
Salt
Freshly ground black pepper
2 teaspoons of potato starch dissolved in 2 tablespoons of cold water
2 tablespoons (1 ounce) black caviar
1/8 teaspoon of fresh lemon juice
In a heavy 6-quart casserole, melt the butter over high heat.
Add the onions, carrot, parsley, celery, bay leaves, cloves and lemon
peel and cover the pan. Lower the heat and simmer for about 15
minutes, until the vegetables are soft but not brown. Set aside.
Preheat the oven to 325° F. In a heavy 10- to 12-inch skillet,
heat the 3 tablespoons of oil over high heat until a light haze forms
above it. Add the veal and brown for 8 to 10 minutes, turning it every
2 or 3 minutes so that it browns evenly on all sides. Then place it on
top of the vegetables in the casserole and pour in the wine. Bring to
a boil over high heat, sprinkle the meat liberally with salt and a few
grindings of black pepper and cover the casserole tightly. Braise in
the center of the oven for 1 1/ 4 hours, turning the veal over after
45 minutes.
When the veal is tender, transfer it to a heated platter, cut
away the strings and carve the meat into 1/ 4 inch-thick slices.
Arrange them, slightly overlapping, down the center of a large platter
and cover the platter loosely with foil to keep the meat warm while
you make the sauce.
Quickly strain the entire contents of the casserole through a
fine sieve into a bowl, pressing down hard on the vegetables with the
back of a large spoon before discarding them. Skim off any surface fat
and return the braised juices to the casserole. Stir in the dissolved
potato starch. Then bring the sauce to a boil over high heat, stirring
constantly until it is lightly thickened and smooth. Reduce the heat
to low and gently stir in the caviar and lemon juice and taste for
seasoning. Pour in the sauce over the veal and serve at once, or if
you prefer, serve the sauce separately. =•••=

[Pico Rico]

"pavane" <pav...@leisure.org> wrote in message
news:zURsq.26304$Dk.1...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...

I have seen braised lamb shank listed as such. thanks for the info. this
happens more and more - it may have started with people calling a certain
dish cooked with beef "Shepherd's Pie".

[ViLco]

Bob Terwilliger wrote:

> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco?

The city of Milano, home of one of the most renowned recipes for ossibuchi.

> What kind of meat?

Veal.

> What cooking method?

Stewing.

> What kind of sauce?

No tomato and peas (that'd be no more milanese, it would be *italian*), just
butter, EVO oil, broth, white wine, onion, a very little of concentrated
tomato paste and "gremolada", which is a mix of a lot of finely grated lemon
zest mixed with parsley and de-salted salted anchovies.

> What kind of accompaniment?

For the milanese ossibuchi, risotto alla milanese wihout or with very little
cheese.
My evrsion differs from the milanese since I add peas, as almost all of
Italy does, and I sometimes avoid both the lemon zest and the anchovies.

[A Moose in Love]

On Nov 4, 5:50 am, "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz>
wrote:
> What springs to mind whensomeone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?

> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>
> Bob

As far as the meat goes, I think osso buco refers to veal shanks.

[spamtrap1888]

On Nov 4, 7:45 am, "ViLco" <villi...@tin.it> wrote:
> Bob Terwilliger wrote:
> > What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco?
>
> The city of Milano, home of one of the most renowned recipes for ossibuchi.
>
> > What kind of meat?
>
> Veal.
>
> > What cooking method?
>
> Stewing.

In the US I see mostly slices of shank, not the whole thing. And when
I make it using whole shanks, I use a heavy roasting pan in the oven.

[ImStillMags]

On Nov 4, 6:37 am, "pavane" <pav...@leisure.org> wrote:
>
> > I don't understand why there is any question here.  Veal shank, braise,
> > risotto Milanese.  It is pretty standard stuff (and fantastic).
>
> The term has been corrupted and is now sneaking into common
> usage to mean any tough chunk of meat on a bone, braised.
> I have seen pork shank osso buco, lamb shank osso buco,
> no beef yet although it will come, it will come.  A chef friend
> attributes this change in usage to the increased expense of
> good veal, which has priced the dish off of many restaurants,
> and the apparent willingness of the Great Public to swallow
> (literally, in this case) a fraud-turned-common practice.

I think fraud is a pretty harsh term. To me it is a methodology and
an outline for a classic dish. If you don't have veal I see nothing
wrong with using lamb or pork or anything else.

Here's my recipe, and I've made it with all the above and it's
wonderful.

http://www.hizzoners.com/southern-comforts/sitaras-favorites/252-osso-bucco

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 06:16:52 -0700, "Pico Rico" <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote:

>I don't understand why there is any question here. Veal shank, braise,
>risotto Milanese. It is pretty standard stuff (and fantastic).

Yes. Perfect. And maybe sauteed asparagus with it.

Lamb shank is a delicious variation, but then it's no longer osso buco.

-- Larry

[Dave Smith]

I picked up some lamb shanks when I was shopping this morning. They are
frozen New Zealand lamb, which is fine by me. I have some dark ale to
braise them in.


I will see how it works out. $13 + for three shanks, plus the cost of
the beer, broth, other ingredients. I posted here last spring about a
restaurant that we went to that had delicious lamb shanks with garlic
mashed potatoes and lots of fresh seasonal vegetables for $14. Okay...
that's for one.... but still...... given the price of lamb shanks and
the cost of buying them already cooked so nicely .... maybe we should
have just gone out for them.

[Pico Rico]

"aem" <aem_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:68fcf8b7-cec0-4af7...@bq8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

On Nov 4, 10:33 am, ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think fraud is a pretty harsh term. To me it is a methodology and
> an outline for a classic dish. If you don't have veal I see nothing
> wrong with using lamb or pork or anything else.

Spoken like a former restaurant owner. The classic dish is made with
veal shank. If you make it with lamb it can be delicious and it can
be "in the style of" but it's not osso buco and you shouldn't call it
that on your menu. Ymmv, but I think names should mean something. -
aem

+1

[Felice]

"Pico Rico" <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote in message
news:j90p32$7br$1...@dont-email.me

What he said. But don't forget the gremolata.

Felice

[Doug Freyburger]

Pico Rico wrote:
>
> I don't understand why there is any question here. Veal shank, braise,
> risotto Milanese. It is pretty standard stuff (and fantastic).

I've seen the dish served with various starches. Rice as a risotto,
rice with a simpler sauce, mashed potato.

When making it ourselves we don't always get veal. Sometimes it's from
a grown up cow. Technically not Osso Buco but just as good.

[sf]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:37:27 -0400, "pavane" <pav...@leisure.org>
wrote:

> A chef friend
> attributes this change in usage to the increased expense of
> good veal, which has priced the dish off of many restaurants,
> and the apparent willingness of the Great Public to swallow
> (literally, in this case) a fraud-turned-common practice.

If the sauce tastes good, people don't care. What about schnitzel?
It's not strictly veal anymore. They make it out of pork too. Same
idea.

--
All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt.

[sf]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:04:49 -0400, Dave Smith
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> I will see how it works out. $13 + for three shanks,

You either got small lamb shanks or your cost is less than mine. I
figure $13/14 for two of them and then I pass.

[Pico Rico]

"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:ilj8b7hai8hein4tu...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:37:27 -0400, "pavane" <pav...@leisure.org>
> wrote:
>
>> A chef friend
>> attributes this change in usage to the increased expense of
>> good veal, which has priced the dish off of many restaurants,
>> and the apparent willingness of the Great Public to swallow
>> (literally, in this case) a fraud-turned-common practice.
>
> If the sauce tastes good, people don't care. What about schnitzel?
> It's not strictly veal anymore. They make it out of pork too. Same
> idea.

yes, but if they call it veiner schnitzel, they are lying.

If it is not veal, call it braised lamb shanks, etc.

[Bob Terwilliger]

pavane wrote:

>>> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
>>> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>>

>> I don't understand why there is any question here. Veal shank, braise,
>> risotto Milanese. It is pretty standard stuff (and fantastic).
>
> The term has been corrupted and is now sneaking into common
> usage to mean any tough chunk of meat on a bone, braised.
> I have seen pork shank osso buco, lamb shank osso buco,
> no beef yet although it will come, it will come. A chef friend
> attributes this change in usage to the increased expense of
> good veal, which has priced the dish off of many restaurants,
> and the apparent willingness of the Great Public to swallow
> (literally, in this case) a fraud-turned-common practice.

That's why I brought it up here. I've eaten beef shanks braised into what
was called osso buco, and found myself loving it (even *more* than had the
dish been made with veal). I've also seen braised lamb shanks called "osso
buco" and served with polenta.

My question about accompaniments stems from a discussion I had with Giusi
elsewhere; she stated that she didn't believe risotto *should* be paired
with osso buco. (Presumably, this is because risotto is a "primi" dish and
osso buco a "segundi" dish.) She went on to state that polenta was a
traditional accompaniment to that Roman dish osso buco. (She later retracted
the assertion that osso buco is Roman rather than Milanese.)

So if non-veal meats are not allowed to be called "osso buco", are you then
forced to use a long description of the dish you're making or eating, e.g.,
"tied lamb shank braised with wine, garnished with mint-lemon-garlic
gremolata" rather than "lamb osso buco"?

Bob

[sf]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:38:14 -0700, "Bob Terwilliger"
<virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

> So if non-veal meats are not allowed to be called "osso buco", are you then
> forced to use a long description of the dish you're making or eating, e.g.,
> "tied lamb shank braised with wine, garnished with mint-lemon-garlic
> gremolata" rather than "lamb osso buco"?

I'm just a peasant when it comes to these things, but lamb osso buco
is enough for me. I know it's not the "real thing" and I know what
they're substituting. They could say "lamb braised in the style of
osso buco" but that's too stilted.

[Giusi]

"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> ha scritto nel messaggio

> My question about accompaniments stems from a discussion I had with Giusi
> elsewhere; she stated that she didn't believe risotto *should* be paired
> with osso buco.

I said I do not ever LIKE risotto WITH things, but love it before things.
If you want to argue with me in a venue away from where we werr talking, at
least quote me and don't paraphrase incorrectly.

>(Presumably, this is because risotto is a "primi" dish and
> osso buco a "segundi" dish.) She went on to state that polenta was a
> traditional accompaniment to that Roman dish osso buco. (She later
> retracted
> the assertion that osso buco is Roman rather than Milanese.)

Again the paraphrasing. It's prino, not primi and secondo not segundi. I
never saidf polenta belonged with any version of osso buco, I was promoting
braised short ribs or braised pork with polenta as an ideal fall meal.

Bob, this is very unattractive of you. We were calmly discussing a menu
elsewhere and suddenly you want to carry the discussion here. What you
really want is to have a fight that I already conceded to you in a place
where you can arrange the fight as you like. It won't change that the osso
buco I am served here is a very different dish from the real thing or that I
don't like it. It won't change that I politely posted a link to a site
showing how a Milanese chef makes osso buco. It won't ever change that I am
up front and honest in an exchange and you are not. I'm ashamed of you.
You are being a bully.

[Bob Terwilliger]

Giusi wrote:

>> My question about accompaniments stems from a discussion I had with Giusi
>> elsewhere; she stated that she didn't believe risotto *should* be paired
>> with osso buco.
>
> I said I do not ever LIKE risotto WITH things, but love it before things.
> If you want to argue with me in a venue away from where we werr talking,
> at least quote me and don't paraphrase incorrectly.

So you agree that you don't believe risotto should be paired WITH osso buco?
Therefore what I wrote was true, and you're just trying to start a fight
where no fight existed?

> Bob, this is very unattractive of you. We were calmly discussing a menu
> elsewhere and suddenly you want to carry the discussion here. What you
> really want is to have a fight that I already conceded to you in a place
> where you can arrange the fight as you like.

Giusi, this is very irrational of you. We were discussing the meaning of
"osso buco" in a thread where the OP wanted dinner ideas but had not decided
on anything concrete. Our discussion had wandered far afield of what she
wanted to talk about. There was no "fight" in anything I wrote. I quoted
Wikipedia while acknowledging that it is not a completely reliable source of
information. Did you think THAT was some kind of fight?

You also seem to be upset that I asked a cooking-related question of this
group inspired by the discussion on RFC Facebook. And since you seem so keen
for me to quote you, your comments about Usenet RFC were, "Bob, you are
nuts. You very aggressively carried this to RFC whedn I said I wouldn't. So
whatever.... take a poll of that bunch of yahoos". Of course, if I had said
that YOU were nuts, the moderators would have kicked me right out of the
forum, but YOU can get away with that kind of thing. What the HELL was
aggressive about posting here?

> It won't change that the osso buco I am served here is a very different
> dish from the real thing or that I don't like it. It won't change that I
> politely posted a link to a site showing how a Milanese chef makes osso
> buco.

You posted that link AFTER I'd opened the discussion here. I asked if we
could move the discussion to RFC and waited.... After about 30 minutes, I
posted my question here, thinking you were waiting for me to post. You got
upset at my posting, and replied two hours after my initial request. How
long do you think I should have waited in the face of your non-response?

> It won't ever change that I am up front and honest in an exchange and you
> are not. I'm ashamed of you. You are being a bully.

In what was was I not "up front and honest"? You are being a drama queen
playing the victim.

Bob

[spamtrap1888]

On Nov 4, 6:37 am, "pavane" <pav...@leisure.org> wrote:

> "Pico Rico" <PicoR...@nonospam.com> wrote in message

Veal has always been expensive, so I can't picture a sudden trend.

The trouble with non veal osso buco is the seasoning would have to
change to suit pork or lamb, making the dishes quite different.Veal is
about the blandest of hoofed meats.

[rosie]

On Nov 4, 4:50 am, "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz>
wrote:

> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>
> Bob

When I think of Osso Buco I am thinking of one of my most favorite
dishes. Veal shanks, braised with red wine, Risotto or some times I
will make it with mashed potatoes or Israeli couscous.

[spamtrap1888]

I hate risotto, btw: so little reward for so much effort, IMHO. So I
would probably make polenta.

[Ranée at Arabian Knits]

In article
<46ddc35d-b7bc-496e...@w20g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Veal has always been expensive, so I can't picture a sudden trend.

If always starts in the 60s or 70s.

--
Regards,
Ranee @ Arabian Knits

"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/

[Tom Del Rosso]

Well, it is still a bone with a hole in it, which is what osso buco means.
I don't think they'd be that picky in Italy. I'd be surprised if there
isn't any regional variation where they often use lamb.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

[jmcquown]

"Storrmmee" <rgr...@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:9hhurj...@mid.individual.net...
> i know nothing ab out it, maybe you can talk more about it? Lee

> "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote in message
> news:4eb3b57e$0$21175$c3e8da3$e408...@news.astraweb.com...

>> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
>> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>

I think of veal shanks. Not something I buy.

I do buy lamb shanks occasionally (I should look for them) and make a
different kind of stew :)

Jill

[Dave Smith]

On 05/11/2011 3:45 PM, jmcquown wrote:
>

> I think of veal shanks. Not something I buy.
>
> I do buy lamb shanks occasionally (I should look for them) and make a
> different kind of stew :)
>
>

That's what's on the menu for dinner tomorrow. I am doing lamb shanks
braised in dark ale.

[Steve Pope]

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I hate risotto, btw: so little reward for so much effort, IMHO.

You are probably being fed false information about how much effort
it is.

Steve

[Kalmia]

On Nov 4, 5:50 am, "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz>
wrote:

> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of meat?
> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>
> Bob

It's never been 'mentioned' to me, except via the menu of a decent
Italian ristorante. I wouldn't order it tho. I lean toward the
cheesier dishes.

[Dave Smith]

I have never had it in an Italian restaurant. I have made it at home a
few times and it has always been good. There are a lot of Italians
around here and there is a grocery store nearby that is run by and
caters to Italians. They often have good deals on sliced veal shanks and
whenever I come across them I grab some and make osso buca.



Hmmm ,, I have often said that my wife is the braising queen, and she is
the one who taught me how to braise and get good rich flavours. She has
made me incredible beef stews, short ribs, ox tails. She has only
occasionally done braised chicken dishes for me, and she has NEVER done
Osso Buca for me. I am starting to think that maybe she should, and I
say that only because she does such a good job on stewed dishes that it
is bound to be better than mine.

[Pico Rico]

"Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:j940hq$8v3$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> pltr...@xhost.org wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 06:16:52 -0700, "Pico Rico"
>> <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't understand why there is any question here. Veal shank,
>> > braise, risotto Milanese. It is pretty standard stuff (and
>> > fantastic).
>>
>> Yes. Perfect. And maybe sauteed asparagus with it.
>>
>> Lamb shank is a delicious variation, but then it's no longer osso
>> buco.
>
> Well, it is still a bone with a hole in it, which is what osso buco means.
> I don't think they'd be that picky in Italy.

When it comes to food, Italians are very picky. When I was visiting my
relatives, they wouldn't order a particular dish because if you want that
you have it when you are in Milano, because that is where they do it right.

[sf]

I was very surprised the first time I made it. It just takes the
regular amount of time it takes to make rice. It's basically boiled
rice, except you add the stock a little at a time and let it boil down
before adding more.

[jmcquown]

"Dave Smith" <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Iwgtq.39065$qw2....@unlimited.newshosting.com...

Sounds good to me! Next time I go to the meat market I'll look for lamb
shanks. I love them! I haven't had them in a couple of years :)

Jill

[jmcquown]

"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message
news:j946fs$813$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...

I don't know about that, Steve. First you have to have arborio rice. Then,
according to recipes I've read, you do have to stir stir stir... constantly.
I've only ever had it twice in restaurants but I was not impressed enough to
care to make it at home. It's just a different kind of rice with lots more
effort. I'd rather just put short grain rice in a pot, add some stock and
seasonings, cover, and let it simmer on low for 20 minutes.

Jill

[Steve Pope]

jmcquown <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote:

>"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message

>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> I hate risotto, btw: so little reward for so much effort, IMHO.

>> You are probably being fed false information about how much effort
>> it is.

> I don't know about that, Steve. First you have to have arborio rice.

True. I buy this at Trader Joe's, even without them it would not be
too hard to find.

> Then, according to recipes I've read, you do have to stir
> stir stir... constantly.

So far as I can tell, this isn't actually true. In most cases,
it needs to be stirred for a couple seconds every 3 to 4 minutes.
Then, just at the very end it needs a steady 15, or at most 30, seconds
of stirring. It really is not much effort (at least, for a small
batch).

> I've only ever had it twice in restaurants but I was not
> impressed enough to care to make it at home. It's just a
> different kind of rice with lots more effort.

In fact I find arborio to be a somewhat more forgiving variety of rice
to cook than most. One issue is it's expense.

Steve

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:19:36 -0400, "jmcquown" <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote:

>I don't know about that, Steve. First you have to have arborio rice.

Or carnaroli, or vialone nano, or two other relatively obscure varietes that I
can never find or remember. But then I always have at least two of these, plus
basmati and calasparra, around in quantity. Carnaroli is my favorite.

> Then, according to recipes I've read, you do have to stir stir stir... constantly.

The stirring (or beating) helps in producing the creaminess of the finished
dish, and equalizing the cooking of all the rice. It's not like you're standing
there whisking away furiously. It's easy to fit the stirring in with cooking the
other components to be added late to the risotto or served with it. The entire
meal cooking time is around 25 minutes.

>I've only ever had it twice in restaurants but I was not impressed enough to
>care to make it at home.

I guess you haven't had proper risotto, then. There is a lot of crappy rice out
there listed on menus as risotto. I seldom find restaurant risotto that can
compare to my own. All but the most caring restaurants take shortcuts with their
risotto -- par cooking, and refrigerating in a jelly roll pan until ordered.
Many don't even use a proper rice, or take the time to prepare a proper sofrito.

> It's just a different kind of rice with lots more
>effort. I'd rather just put short grain rice in a pot, add some stock and
>seasonings, cover, and let it simmer on low for 20 minutes.

No, it's not. It's unique -- no other rice dish has the external creaminess and
the internal "tooth" of risotto. And risotto rice cooks and tastes quite
different from other short-grain rices, such as calasparra paella rice.

I guess I was fortunate to be introduced to risotto in Milan, and shortly
thereafter from a well-known chef in Boston's North End. We have risotto every
week, and make crunchy risotto cakes from the leftovers. It's one of my very
favorite dishes.

-- Larry

[sf]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:13:17 -0400, pltr...@xhost.org wrote:

> I guess you haven't had proper risotto, then. There is a lot of crappy rice out
> there listed on menus as risotto. I seldom find restaurant risotto that can
> compare to my own.

Where are you located (not address, general location)? I've only had
one bad experience with risotto and I can sympathize with everyone who
says they don't like it because of that. "Once burned, twice shy" and
that includes me. I'm very careful about where I order it because I
was burned in a place where I expected a good product.

However, the restaurants where I get risotto that lives up to my
expectations have a product better than what I have produced... and
that's why I will order it "out".

[Bob Terwilliger]

Larry wrote:

> I guess I was fortunate to be introduced to risotto in Milan, and shortly
> thereafter from a well-known chef in Boston's North End.

When you put it that way, doesn't it seem obvious?

Bob

[Tom Del Rosso]

Pico Rico wrote:
>
> When it comes to food, Italians are very picky. When I was visiting
> my relatives, they wouldn't order a particular dish because if you
> want that you have it when you are in Milano, because that is where
> they do it right.

That means they have a preference for one version of the dish, but it kind
of proves the point that variations exist.

[Pico Rico]

"Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message

news:j959cd$5qf$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> Pico Rico wrote:
>>
>> When it comes to food, Italians are very picky. When I was visiting
>> my relatives, they wouldn't order a particular dish because if you
>> want that you have it when you are in Milano, because that is where
>> they do it right.
>
> That means they have a preference for one version of the dish, but it kind
> of proves the point that variations exist.
>

yes, perhaps, but not with anything other than veal shank, or it wouldn't be
called osso buco.

[Giusi]

"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> ha scritto nel messaggio

> In what was was I not "up front and honest"? You are being a drama queen
> playing the victim.

Hahaha victim I am not and I don't play one on TV. How long should you wait
for a response on the internet? Given that we are 9 hours difference in
time zones, there really isn't an answer to that. Politeness, IMO, requires
that you do wait however.

[Storrmmee]

you could do what i do write inspired somewhere in the recipe title and you
are covered, purists know its not traditional, others have a snes of what it
will taste like, Lee

"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote in message

news:4eb4afa6$0$2918$c3e8da3$2e00...@news.astraweb.com...

> pavane wrote:
>
>>>> What springs to mind when someone mentions osso buco? What kind of
>>>> meat?
>>>> What cooking method? What kind of sauce? What kind of accompaniment?
>>>

>>> I don't understand why there is any question here. Veal shank, braise,
>>> risotto Milanese. It is pretty standard stuff (and fantastic).
>>

>> The term has been corrupted and is now sneaking into common
>> usage to mean any tough chunk of meat on a bone, braised.
>> I have seen pork shank osso buco, lamb shank osso buco,
>> no beef yet although it will come, it will come. A chef friend
>> attributes this change in usage to the increased expense of
>> good veal, which has priced the dish off of many restaurants,
>> and the apparent willingness of the Great Public to swallow
>> (literally, in this case) a fraud-turned-common practice.
>

> That's why I brought it up here. I've eaten beef shanks braised into what
> was called osso buco, and found myself loving it (even *more* than had the
> dish been made with veal). I've also seen braised lamb shanks called "osso
> buco" and served with polenta.

>
> My question about accompaniments stems from a discussion I had with Giusi
> elsewhere; she stated that she didn't believe risotto *should* be paired

> with osso buco. (Presumably, this is because risotto is a "primi" dish and

> osso buco a "segundi" dish.) She went on to state that polenta was a
> traditional accompaniment to that Roman dish osso buco. (She later
> retracted
> the assertion that osso buco is Roman rather than Milanese.)
>

> So if non-veal meats are not allowed to be called "osso buco", are you
> then
> forced to use a long description of the dish you're making or eating,
> e.g.,
> "tied lamb shank braised with wine, garnished with mint-lemon-garlic
> gremolata" rather than "lamb osso buco"?
>

> Bob
>

[Storrmmee]

it has the dreaded"stir constantly" instruction, so for me not doable, Lee
"jmcquown" <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9hluk7...@mid.individual.net...

[Storrmmee]

i never eat veal, my father and grandfather before him raised/raise cattle,
so i have the misfortune of knowing the legal definition of veal, so unless
i know who abutchred it and all the particulars i can't eat it, Lee

"jmcquown" <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:9hli2m...@mid.individual.net...

[Bob Terwilliger]

Giusi wrote:

>> In what was was I not "up front and honest"? You are being a drama queen
>> playing the victim.
>
> Hahaha victim I am not and I don't play one on TV. How long should you
> wait for a response on the internet? Given that we are 9 hours difference
> in time zones, there really isn't an answer to that. Politeness, IMO,
> requires that you do wait however.

You know as well as I do that my schedule is more aligned with Europe and
the Middle East than it is with North America. Inasmuch as I was responding
to something you had *just* posted on Facebook, I had every reason to
believe that you were not only awake but online. So after asking in the same
forum where you had just posted, I did wait what seemed to be a polite
interval given those conditions. The only one spoiling for a fight here is
you.

Bob

[Pico Rico]

"Storrmmee" <rgr...@consolidated.net> wrote in message

news:9hn1sn...@mid.individual.net...

>i never eat veal, my father and grandfather before him raised/raise cattle,
>so i have the misfortune of knowing the legal definition of veal, so unless
>i know who abutchred it and all the particulars i can't eat it, Lee

and exactly what do you think you know?

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:28:54 -0700, sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:13:17 -0400, pltr...@xhost.org wrote:
>
>> I guess you haven't had proper risotto, then. There is a lot of crappy rice out
>> there listed on menus as risotto. I seldom find restaurant risotto that can
>> compare to my own.
>
>Where are you located (not address, general location)?

I'm in Alexandria, VA (Washington DC).

-- Larry

[sf]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 03:08:53 -0600, "Storrmmee"
<rgr...@consolidated.net> wrote:

> you could do what i do write inspired somewhere in the recipe title and you
> are covered, purists know its not traditional, others have a snes of what it
> will taste like, Lee

We never see veal osso buco, we only see osso bucco, so I don't see
what's so hard to figure out about "lamb osso buco". We know it's
lamb and We know it was cooked osso buco style. That said, I haven't
ever seen lamb osso buco on a menu.

[sf]

On Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:56:17 -0700, "Pico Rico" <Pico...@nonospam.com>
wrote:

>

What would lamb shank cooked in the same way with the same sauce be
called by them? Does it even exist? Obviously Italians aren't used
to thinking outside the box if variations aren't allowable.

[sf]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:38:14 -0700, "Bob Terwilliger"
<virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

> So if non-veal meats are not allowed to be called "osso buco", are you then
> forced to use a long description of the dish you're making or eating, e.g.,
> "tied lamb shank braised with wine, garnished with mint-lemon-garlic
> gremolata" rather than "lamb osso buco"?

We do both on a menu. We'd say "lamb osso buco" and then put the
description below it.

[Pico Rico]

"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:a6edb7tatg4jkkpga...@4ax.com...

of course variations are allowed, but just call it what it is then. The
Italians are very much into specific terms for specific things. Thus the
D.O.C., for example.

[Steve Pope]

sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 5 Nov 2011 20:31:56 +0000 (UTC), spo...@speedymail.org (Steve

>> You are probably being fed false information about how much effort
>> it is.

>I was very surprised the first time I made it. It just takes the
>regular amount of time it takes to make rice. It's basically boiled
>rice, except you add the stock a little at a time and let it boil down
>before adding more.

Yes, and it's important to make sure the liquid you're adding
is already at boiling. This requires a second pot for heating
the liquid in, so it is not a one-pot dish.

Steve

[sf]

Thanks, I thought the East coast was littered with lots of really good
Italian restaurants... but I guess not.

[Giusi]

"Pico Rico" <Pico...@nonospam.com> ha scritto nel messaggio

> "sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message

>>> >> When it comes to food, Italians are very picky. When I was visiting
>>> >> my relatives, they wouldn't order a particular dish because if you
>>> >> want that you have it when you are in Milano, because that is where
>>> >> they do it right.
>>>
>>>

>>> yes, perhaps, but not with anything other than veal shank, or it
>>> wouldn't >>> be
>>> called osso buco.
>>>
>> What would lamb shank cooked in the same way with the same sauce be
>> called by them? Does it even exist? Obviously Italians aren't used
>> to thinking outside the box if variations aren't allowable.
>
> of course variations are allowed, but just call it what it is then. The
> Italians are very much into specific terms for specific things. Thus the
> D.O.C., for example.

Lamb shanks are not sold here. Ssheep shanks might be, but lamb is killed
so small there is no meat on what would be a shank. A whole leg is
sometimes the size of a make turkey leg.
Osso buco means holed bone which has marrow, a crucial part of the dish. I
don't know that those tiny lamb bones have any, but I do know there is maybe
one mouthful of meat toward the place where shanks are usually cut.
They do sell turkey leg slices for it because it is affordable, whereas the
veal isn't.

[Dave Smith]

On 06/11/2011 1:21 PM, Giusi wrote:
., for example.
>
> Lamb shanks are not sold here. Ssheep shanks might be, but lamb is killed
> so small there is no meat on what would be a shank. A whole leg is
> sometimes the size of a make turkey leg.

Most of the lamb shanks I have seen over the years have been about the
size of a turkey drumstick.

[Dave Smith]

On 06/11/2011 12:53 PM, sf wrote:

> Thanks, I thought the East coast was littered with lots of really good
> Italian restaurants... but I guess not.

There are lot of Italians living in southern Ontario, especially Toronto
and around the Niagara peninsula. There are a lot of Italian
restaurants. There are very very that I would call good. Some of them
have better pasta and tomato sauce dishes than others, but basically
that is about all that has to be on the menu for it to be an Italian
restaurant.

There is the occasional "upscale" Italian restaurant. That means the
have dishes like ravioli stuffed with crab and topped with a lobster
sauce or some other variation of pasta with something other than tomato
sauce.

[gloria.p]

Somehow I rarely think of Osso Buco unless we are at our local Italian
restaurant and I see it on the menu. Even then, I am more likely to
order eggplant parm, eggplant rollatini, (Spellcheck just offered me
"rollerskating or "violation" as correct spellings.) bracciole, or their
lobster ravioli with white sauce.

gloria p

[sf]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:21:12 -0700, "gloria.p" <gpue...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Somehow I rarely think of Osso Buco unless we are at our local Italian
> restaurant and I see it on the menu.

Are you back East too? I just checked one place we go to from time to
time and osso buco isn't on the dinner menu, but it's probably an
occasional special. www.spiedo.com/pdf/dinner.pdf

[Steve Pope]

sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:21:12 -0700, "gloria.p" <gpue...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Somehow I rarely think of Osso Buco unless we are at our local Italian
>> restaurant and I see it on the menu.
>
>Are you back East too? I just checked one place we go to from time to
>time and osso buco isn't on the dinner menu, but it's probably an
>occasional special. www.spiedo.com/pdf/dinner.pdf

I was guessing it is on the regular menu at Buca Giovanni (SF)
and I was right.

http://www.themenupage.com/bucagiovannimenu.html


Steve

[sf]

I've never eaten there, thanks for the pointer.

[Steve Pope]

sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:48:45 +0000 (UTC), spo...@speedymail.org (Steve

>> I was guessing it is on the regular menu at Buca Giovanni (SF)
>> and I was right.

>I've never eaten there, thanks for the pointer.

They've been around forever. I have not been there for about
a decade, but unless they have changed, they are are a pretty good,
decidedly un-Californicated northern Italian place. Lots
of venison, rabbit, heavy sauces, etc. Great if that's what you want.

Steve

[sf]

:) Not particularly, thanks for the warning.

[ViLco]

pltr...@xhost.org wrote:

> The stirring (or beating) helps in producing the creaminess of the
> finished dish, and equalizing the cooking of all the rice. It's not
> like you're standing there whisking away furiously. It's easy to fit
> the stirring in with cooking the other components to be added late to
> the risotto or served with it.

Moreover, if ome mixes too much the result will be a gluey risotto since
mixing the rice makes it release more starch.

> The entire meal cooking time is around 25 minutes.

Unless you're in for a low and slow soffritto, as I sometimes do when using
minced pork lard as the fat base.

[ViLco]

Bob Terwilliger wrote:

> (She later retracted the assertion that osso buco is Roman
> rather than Milanese.)

Wrong point of view: ossibuchi (plural of osso buco, since in italy we call
it plural) is both roman and nmilanese. And bolognese, and pugliese, and
emiliano, and many many more areas of Italy since all of these areas have
their versione of ossibuchi. Here in Emilia we don't use gremolada but add
tomato preserve and peas, in southern italy they also add tomato and some
spices, etcetere.
I'd like to test the roman version since I don't know it and I'm sure they
have one, and probably a hearthy one, because ossibuchi is definitely part
of the Italian Cuisine.

[ViLco]

Ranée at Arabian Knits wrote:

>> Veal has always been expensive, so I can't picture a sudden trend.

> If always starts in the 60s or 70s.

1) Plain wrong: the recipe which calls for veal appears in a book by
Pellegrino Artusi who dates back to the second half of XIX century.
2) Now, will you be so kind to tell me who or what made you believe the
*false* asserption that there hasn't been an Italian Cuisine until the 60's
or 70's of the XX century?

[Giusi]

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio

Perhaps she means more that the shortage begins then, when restaurants made
dishes made of cheap cuts chic, and suddenly the cheap cuts became
expensive. Lambshanks in the USA used to be almost free, and now they are a
fortune if you divide the price by the amount of meat on them.

[Storrmmee]

i read renee's post to mean the sixties abou t veal, Lee
"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:j98b9r$3pq$1...@dont-email.me...

[Storrmmee]

they aren't affordable for most people now, but i read renee's post to be
referring to veal, Lee
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9hpq4q...@mid.individual.net...

[ViLco]

Giusi wrote:

>>> If always starts in the 60s or 70s.

>> 1) Plain wrong: the recipe which calls for veal appears in a book by
>> Pellegrino Artusi who dates back to the second half of XIX century.
>> 2) Now, will you be so kind to tell me who or what made you believe
>> the *false* asserption that there hasn't been an Italian Cuisine
>> until the 60's or 70's of the XX century?

> Perhaps she means more that the shortage begins then, when
> restaurants made dishes made of cheap cuts chic, and suddenly the
> cheap cuts became expensive.

You can be sure that veal has never been a cheap cut in Italy. Before the XX
century it was only on the tebles of wealthy families, i.e. the landowner's
family and not the farmer workers' families. The latter could only afford
the adult cows after those had worked and have been milked for years.

[ViLco]

Storrmmee wrote:

> i read renee's post to mean the sixties abou t veal, Lee

Then it is still plain wrong since veal has always been expensive and has
always been used in recipes for centuries before the period she specifies.

[Storrmmee]

as the daughter of a cattle farmer, veal was available when something went
wrong and there wasn't a ready buyer... better than wasting the calf
entirely, Lee

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message

news:j98cbc$9df$1...@dont-email.me...

[Storrmmee]

it hasn't always been expensive here in the us, Lee

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message

news:j98cfv$a3d$1...@dont-email.me...

[ViLco]

Storrmmee wrote:

> as the daughter of a cattle farmer, veal was available when something
> went wrong and there wasn't a ready buyer... better than wasting the
> calf entirely, Lee

Cattle farmer and owner, I'd say, and you obviously didn't need the work and
milk from that animal. Here it was different from there, way different:
Italy has never had the vaste pastures of north america, the land is small
and was almost all exploited since more than one century ago, thus both
vegetables and cattle have always been way more expensive than there in the
US. A cow eats a lot of vegetables to grow up until veal age/status, one can
not throw it all away if he could not get a lot of money back by selling it,
and only rich families could buy it.

[Giusi]

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio

news:j98cq8$bsu$1...@dont-email.me...

Agreed, but of all the veal, the shank was cheaper than other parts. Also
the breast or pancetta di vitello. I could buy that for ?9.95 4 years ago,
but now they cut it in strips and call it scottadita and charge as much as a
roast.

[ViLco]

Giusi wrote:

>> Cattle farmer and owner, I'd say, and you obviously didn't need the
>> work and milk from that animal. Here it was different from there, way
>> different: Italy has never had the vaste pastures of north america,
>> the land is small and was almost all exploited since more than one
>> century ago, thus both vegetables and cattle have always been way
>> more expensive than there in the US. A cow eats a lot of vegetables
>> to grow up until veal age/status, one can not throw it all away if
>> he could not get a lot of money back by selling it, and only rich
>> families could buy it.

> Agreed, but of all the veal, the shank was cheaper than other parts.

This doesn't change the fact that it was still expensive also in the past
centuries. The only part which could end up on a worker's family table were
the

> Also the breast or pancetta di vitello. I could buy that for ?9.95 4
> years ago, but now they cut it in strips and call it scottadita and
> charge as much as a roast.

In the last ten years there's a strong perception of stores trying to
mercilessly rip us out of our money, prices go up with almost no reason.
Look at bread, for example, here it went from 3 to 4.5+ euro/kg in the last
five years and this is a 50% price increase: almost 10% a year, which is
plain ridiculous, more than 3 times the national inflation yearly rate.

[ViLco]

ViLco wrote:

>> Agreed, but of all the veal, the shank was cheaper than other parts.

> This doesn't change the fact that it was still expensive also in the
> past centuries. The only part which could end up on a worker's family
> table were the

Forgot that one: the innards.

[Giusi]

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio

Also in remote rural France. There were people who went to their graves
without once tasting meat. My neighbors don't revel in fruit, because their
ancestors grew it as a cash crop.

I only meant that compared to euro 18 for a meaty piece of veal the shank
used to be cheap, but now gram for gram it may be the most costly part.

[Storrmmee]

i guess your definition is different than in the us, the calf doesn't have
to even be at term, and most of the veal in the us until the last few years
was calves taken from milk cows at a very early age. my mother and now
sister have seperate cows for milk. Lee

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message

news:j98cq8$bsu$1...@dont-email.me...

[Storrmmee]

i am not sure about bread, we don't purchase it often, and something i find
odd is that cows in italy are fed vegetables? not grass/hay grain? Lee

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message

news:j98dlq$gsg$1...@dont-email.me...

[Giusi]

An Italian contadino would never consider eating meat he could sell in those
days. He may not even have had the right5 unde3r the mezzadria. The system
was so different in every single way that you can never compare them. It's
like a sharecropper killing off a calf from the owner's cow.

"Storrmmee" <rgr...@consolidated.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:9hpt22...@mid.individual.net...

[Giusi]

Vegetatation. Vilco speaks and write English very very well, but some
things translate hard.

"Storrmmee" <rgr...@consolidated.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:9hpt5c...@mid.individual.net...

[ViLco]

Storrmmee wrote:

> i am not sure about bread, we don't purchase it often, and something
> i find odd is that cows in italy are fed vegetables? not grass/hay
> grain?

I wrote vegetables thinking that word in the italian way "vegetale":
everything which is is organic and not animal. Grass, grains and everything
from fruit to trees. What's the english word, "vegetal"?

[ViLco]

Giusi wrote:

> Vegetatation. Vilco speaks and write English very very well, but some
> things translate hard.

Expecially vegetable and vegetation. When an italians hears "Do you want
vegetables on the pizza?" it sounds to him as if he was getting asked "Do
you want vegetation on your pizza?".
Kind of hilarious

[Storrmmee]

basic culteral difference then, most of the calves sold for veal were done
so to avoid the problem of feeding them, Lee

"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:9hpt6q...@mid.individual.net...

[ViLco]

Giusi wrote:

> An Italian contadino would never consider eating meat he could sell
> in those days. He may not even have had the right5 unde3r the
> mezzadria. The system was so different in every single way that you
> can never compare them. It's like a sharecropper killing off a calf
> from the owner's cow.

Here mezzadria was the only way for the vast majority of people working in
the fields.
Something tells me it was not the case in North America.

[ViLco]

Storrmmee wrote:

> basic culteral difference then, most of the calves sold for veal were
> done so to avoid the problem of feeding them, Lee

Obvious: if land is cheap then grass and grains will be cheap then veal will
be cheap then you'll be able to find someone who will buy it. But if land is
expensive then grass and grains will be expensive then veal will be
expensive then you be able won't find someone who will buy it, apart some
very few rich households.

[Storrmmee]

oh ok makes sense Lee

"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:9hpt8v...@mid.individual.net...

[Storrmmee]

ps i guess part of why it was drawing my attention is that i don't ever even
think of translation issues where he is concerned because he is so good at
it, Lee

"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9hpt8v...@mid.individual.net...

[Storrmmee]

vegitation sorry i never even think of your having to translate as you do it
so well, Lee

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message

news:j98ev9$oec$1...@dont-email.me...

[Giusi]

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio

Rings a bell. When playing twenty questyions the first question is usually
"Is it animal, mineral or vegetable?"

[ViLco]

Storrmmee wrote:

> ps i guess part of why it was drawing my attention is that i don't
> ever even think of translation issues where he is concerned because
> he is so good at it, Lee

Thanks Lee! I still get confused by tricky words such as "vegetable"

[Storrmmee]

and along with all that i rather think that the amount of cattle in a herd
is probably smaller there than here, Lee

"ViLco" <vill...@tin.it> wrote in message

news:j98fa7$qd8$1...@dont-email.me...

[Giusi]

Everything is re3lative. The population in the US is over 300 million, in
Italy just over 60 million. The territory is around the size of California.
It's densely populated here, but leave a city and within moments you are in
country. Suburban sprawl here is clusters of mid to high rises at transport
stops, not miles of small homes plopped on land. Saturday I drove to a
meeting in Cortona over the mountains. There were parts of the mountain
drive where there was no evidence of human life, just miles of colored trees
in mountains and valleys.
It is all different.

"Storrmmee" <rgr...@consolidated.net> ha scritto nel messaggio

news:9hptuh...@mid.individual.net...

[ViLco]

Storrmmee wrote:

> and along with all that i rather think that the amount of cattle in a
> herd is probably smaller there than here, Lee

Vert true, the average stable size here was about a dozen cows or alike. The
big stables with hundreds if not thousands of beast are a recent thing.