Tempo
David #6
: . . . Callers need
: to know that you can't just holler "slow down" without risking rhythmic
: chaos, which is usually worse than the original tempo problem.
In a caller's workshop at a festival a couple years back, I seem to
remember Ted Sanella saying that hollering "slower" was the _only_ method
he had found that seemed to work (!)
IMHO that callers need to make a point of communicating with the band
beforehand to find out what the band wants in terms of signals.
I agree with a lot of the comments on this thread, but short of bringing
a metronome, I suspect it may be difficult to tell a lot of musicians not
of Bo's caliber to play 120 bpm and actually get it. I have played for
dances now and then and I know I couldn't pull 112 or 120 or 128 bpm out of
thin air :-)
When I'm calling and am asked to set a tempo, I usually try to dance a
balance for the band and ask them to get a tempo from that. It works some
of the time (usually my fault when it doesn't 'cause I'm nervous and
dance too fast :-)
Anyone else out there have other methods that they use?
--
David Kirchner
dav...@netcom.com
Phil Katz
> I suspect it may be difficult to tell a lot of musicians not
> of Bo's caliber to play 120 bpm and actually get it. I have played for
> dances now and then and I know I couldn't pull 112 or 120 or 128 bpm out
of
> thin air :-)
>
> When I'm calling and am asked to set a tempo, I usually try to dance a
> balance for the band and ask them to get a tempo from that. It works
some
> of the time (usually my fault when it doesn't 'cause I'm nervous and
> dance too fast :-)
>
> Anyone else out there have other methods that they use?
>
> --
> David Kirchner
> dav...@netcom.com
Bo is a wonderful musician, and I certainly not claim to be " of Bo's
caliber" ,though I've been putting on a bit of weight lately and probably
_exceed_ Bo's calibur ;-) . But never mind!
Whenever I find myself called upon to generate a tempo, I think in my mind
of a favorite example of that kind of music, played by a band I really
know the sound of, (say from listening to a tape a zillion times). For
example, Dudley + Canterbury playing "Piper's Lass". I get the tune going
in my head and imagine myself listening to _that band_ playing it. Then I
tap my foot to what I'm hearing in my head. Then I turn off the
"head-recording" and keep my foot going.
A variant, if I'm starting without a favorite reliable backup player, is
to imagine the 4-potatoes (boom-chucks) played by some such backup player,
and get my foot going to that sound in my head.
Phil Katz
Seattle
Peter Renzland
>... short of bringing
>a metronome, I suspect it may be difficult to tell a lot of musicians not
>of Bo's caliber to play 120 bpm and actually get it. I have played for
>dances now and then and I know I couldn't pull 112 or 120 or 128 bpm out of
>thin air :-)
Hm. Recently a band asked me a whole night in advance to watch the tempo of
the Zwiefache they were going to play the next night. I immediately said:
"I've got two Zwiefache tapes in the car, one from Bavaria, and you're welcome
to borrow them." But they weren't interested in that. And I foolishly didn't
work out a protocol with them, I only asked what exactly they wanted me to do,
to which they replied "nothing special, just tell us if it's the right speed".
Well, when it happened I was across the hall, and as I danced towards the band
I agonised over when and how to tell them it was quite a bit too slow. My eyes
sent out tractor beams, but shields were up and holding. I decided it was best
to rededicate myself to my delightful partner who was doing her first
Zwiefacher ever. Then, in between dances I went up to mention that it was a
little slow. They knew that already. And there wasn't time for any more
Zwiefache.
Later I thought that since I had missed mealtime ('cause of the couple dances)
perhaps I'd skip a couple of contras and see if there were any scraps of
food left. I had about one bite before another band started playing a
Zwiefacher. Naturally I stopped eating and started dancing. This time the
music was much too fast. Since there were only two musicians, and they
always played together, and they knew me, I thought it would be alright to
talk with them about the tempo. Yes, they knew it was fast, but they were
"wired" (or some such expression), having played nonstop for the last n hours.
Amazing -- I just did an experiment. Except for the recent off-speed Z's I
hadn't danced or listened to any Z's since the Flurry, 6 weeks ago. So, I just
took out the Bavarian tape and positioned it (with the volume off) to a simple
Z. (Unsa alte Kath). Then I started the drive, and with the volume still off,
started tapping out the beat with my hand. Then I turned on the volume, and it
was precisely the right tempo. And I'm not at all a musician.
I've noticed that Irish musicians often want to play faster and faster. BTW,
Irish musicians play until the dancers stop, whereas Scottish dancers dance
until the music stops. Exhausting when Scottish dancers dance to Irish
musicians. Often the musicians play faster and faster, trying to tire out
the dancers.
I understand that in Ireland and in New England, over the last few decades,
(square) dance music speed has been increasing steadily. About Irish, Larry
Lynch says: "The main reason for the increase in tempo has been the revival of
sets in competition form. Dancing sets for exhibition and competition is
livelier than was dancing sets for social enjoyment. Dancers and dance
teachers today want musicians to play faster. What is lost in the process,
however, is the rhythm of the music which allowed the old-time dancers to
exhibit their gracefulness on the floor."
Andy Tannenbaum (who's been awfully quiet lately) expressed similar
observations in a letter to a certain New England dance band. Unfortunately
I'm not free to repost it here. It's well worth reading (as are Hugh
Stewart's comments). Perhaps Andy will post it (or excerpts)?
Time to stop rambling and start sleeping. But first, I recently received the
remaining dance booklets ("Spinnradl") from Bavaria, as well as an events
calendar of Bavarian dance courses, groups, amd festivals. (Amazing how many
MWSD groups there are:-) Also, a delightful 14 page booklet "Folk Dance in
Bavaria" by Beni Eisenburg, which mentions such gems as "The Zwiefache was
the most popular Bavarian dance in the Middle Ages. It was called the
Tratzeter." and how Morris Dance spread like an epidemic in the late 15th
century and lasted until 1880. There's even a connection between Z. and M. :-)
And how Polka (meaning "half" -- thus "two-step") came from Czech-Bohemia.
How the French (Fleuret) and the Scots (Sword Dance) had this step already,
and how the Polka got to Vienna via Prague, and from there to London (1849),
when Johann Strauss Sr. played his polkas for Queen Victoria.
--
, @ _{)_ , Je danse
@__{) Peter Renzland Pe...@Renzland.Org \/( )\/"\/\ /\/ donc je suis
(>~(] Toronto Traditional Social Dance /=\ /==\ tanztoll - EntP
/\ /| Calendar - Network - Archive /___\ |/\| Kia Ora!
/( (\ finger / mail Da...@Renzland.Org _/ \_ \# _# 416 323-1300
David....@um.cc.umich.edu
not simply to the style. Example: I play with an (American) Scandinavian
band. When we play for local Scandinavian dancers, we are careful to play
the hambos and polskas slowly enough for them. Our local contradancers
also like an occasional hambo, but they need it significantly faster (because
they don't have the skill to dance it slowly, and because, as contradancers,
the equate slowness with boredom). And last year I was at a (contralike) dance
on the West Coast, and was asked to play a hambo; I chose a tempo that would
work for contradancers back home, only to discover that this was much too slow
for the West Coasters.
-David
Bo Bradham
David's point about working out signals between band and caller in advance is
not only true it is absolutely essential.
As far as changing tempo David's reference to Ted S's quote is true as far as
it goes. My original point about callers hollering for the band to "slow
down" is that it can cause problems larger than the original tempo excesses.
Callers should not expect instant results. No two people have the same
rhythmic sense (ask any high school band director) and changes in tempo must
be carefully arranged. The person who is the point of contact between the
band and caller should work this out among the band once the caller has made
the need for a tempo change known. That was my real point.
As far as pulling tempos out of the air, I must confess I hate metronomes
and never practice with them. I speak metronome in discussions like this
'cause what else can you do. I think in terms of "slow" (<120) "medium" (120-
125) and "fast" (125 +) (your mileage may vary, these are relative terms)In
real life I count out a tempo, using my feet (walking in place during the
walk thru. It looks dumb but it works). I also bring the other players in on
this so we all have the same thing in mind when it's time to play.
Homer, of Homer & Jethro, upon being told he kept time as well as a
metronome: "Thanks, pal, but a metronome don't swing."
Bo
Charlottesville VA
Toby Koosman
>In a caller's workshop at a festival a couple years back, I seem to
>remember Ted Sanella saying that hollering "slower" was the _only_ method
>he had found that seemed to work (!)
I hope he meant, seemed to work when all else failed? I don't find this
necessary very often. At most I holler "DON'T speed up" at bands that
seem to be picking up momentum. If you nip it in the bud early, you can
stop them before they exceed the speed limit.
>I agree with a lot of the comments on this thread, but short of bringing
>a metronome, I suspect it may be difficult to tell a lot of musicians not
>of Bo's caliber to play 120 bpm and actually get it. I have played for
>dances now and then and I know I couldn't pull 112 or 120 or 128 bpm out of
>thin air :-)
Well, if your watch has a second hand 120 is a cinch, but you're right,
that's not what anyone does. It's just the most direct way to answer the
question, since you can't hear people snap their fingers over the net.
I've been playing for ECD lately, and when I'm in doubt about tempo
I hum the tune to myself and start dancing, or watch people on the walk-
through and take a cue from that. You could do the same for contras. I
also respond to simple feedback (usually after the fact). You try to get
the tempo right, people correct you, next time you get a little closer,
and after a certain number of iterations you get it right. That's how it
really works.
>
>When I'm calling and am asked to set a tempo, I usually try to dance a
>balance for the band and ask them to get a tempo from that. It works some
>of the time (usually my fault when it doesn't 'cause I'm nervous and
>dance too fast :-)
I don't know if I'd use a balance for that purpose, I think I could balance
much faster than I could swing or walk happily. Try watching people swing
during the walkthrough though, they'll usually swing at dance tempo more
reliably than they'll walk or balance so.
Toby Koosman koo...@utkvx.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, Tennessee USA
Andy Tannenbaum
> Andy Tannenbaum (who's been awfully quiet lately) expressed similar
> observations in a letter to a certain New England dance band. Unfortunately
> I'm not free to repost it here. It's well worth reading (as are Hugh
> Stewart's comments). Perhaps Andy will post it (or excerpts)?
My ears were itching. I don't read rfd so much any more, since I found
that I was aggravated by much of the subject matter, and when I posted
my opinions, people often found them too negative. They were probably
right, so I'm a bit quieter now.
I'm not going to post the note that Peter's talking about, it was a
response to a Yankee Ingenuity survey, over 400 lines of text,
including personal stuff that was directed toward individuals and not
meant for public consumption. I'll try to post some comments about
that note here.
About a year ago, (Spring of 1993, maybe), I resolved to stop going to
the Tony Parkes/Yankee Ingenuity dance at the Girl Scout House in
Concord, MA on Monday nights, having been a regular participant about
every week for the previous ten years or so. (I still dance elsewhere
every week.)
The main reason I don't go to that dance any more is that the general
demeanor of the evening is not inviting - I find it arrogant,
unfriendly, divisive, and so forth. This is sad, because I have great
respect for the abilities of the caller and musicians, and I like them
all (well, almost all, no matter...) as individuals.
I found that a large difference between the YI dance and other dances
in this area was that their extremely fast tempo tended to divide the
dancers into "cans" and "cannots." Those who are able to keep up the
pace tend to reserve ahead with each other, in order to avoid the
"cannots" who tended to fumble or panic their way down the floor. I
didn't like the reserving, the panicking, the fumbling, the
segregation, etc. I think running through a dance at high speed scuffs
all the corners off of it, crushing all the fine details. You don't
get to enjoy a moment with a partner, add a subtle point, and so
forth. (So I really suspect that the fast music contributes to the
unfriendly demeanor in the hall, which is just my opinion, of course.)
It seemed that the center-set crowd in Concord just wanted to swing and
twirl, if the band just played a tune and they could swing and twirl
all night, that would be fine. This doesn't suit my dance style. (I
like to swing and twirl, but not exclusively.)
I went back one time about six months after I'd left, and it was
exactly the same as before, absolutely no progress. I regret that I
have no interest in going back to dance in Concord.
Note again that I like TP&YI as folks, and they're great musicians, and
great dance musicians. But they choose to cater to the preferences of
a clientele that are quite at odds with mine.
In general, I think most dances work best at 120 or less. If the
choreography of a particular dance is forgiving, then faster might
work, but why bother? If a band can't pump enthusiasm into a crowd
without the cheap trick of speeding up, they need to rethink their
strategy. I think a professional contra dance band should play music
that is accessible to (danceable by) everyone. I haven't heard a good
reason to do it any other way. The only reason I could imagine is if
you advertised the dance as "fast contras for fast dancers." Might as
well make it "... for fast, young, healthy, coordinated etc. dancers."
But for a weekly dance that caters to all comers, you should play music
that all comers (within reason) can dance to. Most dance bands do.
I can talk or write about this subject at length (yea, more than this),
but I've found that my opinions on this are in the small minority, so
I'll cut it off here.
Andrew Tannenbaum CLAM Associates Cambridge, MA USA
Phil Katz
> the Tony Parkes/Yankee Ingenuity dance at the Girl Scout House in
> Concord, MA on Monday nights, having been a regular participant about
> every week for the previous ten years or so. (I still dance elsewhere
> every week.)
>
> The main reason I don't go to that dance any more is that the general
> demeanor of the evening is not inviting - I find it arrogant,
> unfriendly, divisive, and so forth. This is sad, because I have great
> respect for the abilities of the caller and musicians, and I like them
> all (well, almost all, no matter...) as individuals.
Wow, I find that hard to comprehend. I've only been an out of town visitor
at the Mon night scouthouse dances a few times, but I've never found it
uninviting. One awkward stare around the room looking for a partner for
dance 1, and I was out on the floor and right at home the rest of the
evening.
>
> I found that a large difference between the YI dance and other dances
> in this area was that their extremely fast tempo tended to divide the
> dancers into "cans" and "cannots."
Myself, I'm an an advocate of the slightly liesurely tempos (116-118, my
guess) and sometimes appreciate the really stately old ones (say 112) in a
crowd (say at Ralph Page weekend) that knows what to do with them. I'm
frequently the one who, when playing, looks out on the floor and implores
fellow musicians to slow down. Earlier in this thread I posted a comment
on the mid-high 120's being tongue-hanging-out speeds (FOR CONTRAS, NOT
SQUARES). Having said all that to qualify myself as sensitive to overfast
contras, I comment that I never felt rushed or frantic at the Mon night
scouthouse dances when I visited.
> Those who are able to keep up the
> pace tend to reserve ahead with each other, in order to avoid the
> "cannots" who tended to fumble or panic their way down the floor. I
> didn't like the reserving, the panicking, the fumbling, the
> segregation, etc.
What I observe is that the Mon night scouthouse dances are in fact a bit
high-intensity (different from fast in tempo) and elitist; there _isn't_
as much of a reaching out to "cannots" as in some dances. But mygosh it
_is_ somewhat justified; thst particular dance (and its band) known
around the country, I think, as one of the classics. There is nothing so
terrible in a dance, of its own accord, selecting in favor of dance
competence and expecting the rookies to have picked some up somewhere, or
to have to work at it a bit (even quite a bit) at the start. If _every_
dance were like that, there would be a serious problem, but I suspect that
in a mature community like the one in the Boston area, there are plenty of
places for a rookie to pick up a bit of experience.
> I think running through a dance at high speed scuffs
> all the corners off of it, crushing all the fine details. You don't
> get to enjoy a moment with a partner, add a subtle point, and so
> forth.
I do, too, for almost all dances.. One interesting piece of "wisdom" I
picked up somewhere in my career as a dance musician is that speed smooths
out choppiness and improves flow. One (of the few) reason(s) I might urge
the tempo faster (while playing) would be if I saw rookies bouncing and
flailing and in general not knowing what to do with the time. It don't
know if Tony Parkes has this view of the world or not, but I certainly
think he values flow.
>
>
> In general, I think most dances work best at 120 or less. ...
> If a band can't pump enthusiasm into a crowd
> without the cheap trick of speeding up, they need to rethink their
> strategy.
Imho, what you hear at an "Ingenuity" dance is high intensity of playing,
not high speed. There are lots of wonderful musical cheap tricks (perhaps
more than one of the jedi-masters of such tricks inhabits the band) so
that (to me as a musician) the sound ranged from exhilirating to
breathtaking when I was there. But I don't think it was over-fast. I
didn't have to evoke any of the fast-music-defensive-dancing measures
(small steps, tight elbow turns, no twirls etc) that I keep in reserve for
fast bands. Is it possible that what Andrew Tannenbaum perceives as speed
is in fact musical excitement, and the drive (and sometimes inner focus)
it can generate in dancers.
> I think a professional contra dance band should play music
> that is accessible to (danceable by) everyone. I haven't heard a good
> reason to do it any other way.
Well of course, but imho reinforced by over a dozen years playing (not too
fast) for one or two dances that _are_ beginner friendly, exciting musical
cheap tricks _are_ one of the things that makes rookies want to come back
and do it some more till they get some experience.
> ..if you advertised the dance as "fast contras for fast dancers." Might
> as well make it "... for fast, young, healthy, coordinated etc.
> dancers."
Well, I dislike "fast", I'm 50+ and not a fitness fanatic, and (trust me
or ask my dance partners) not exceptionally coordinated. Everything I know
about dancing I learned from a few well-placed workshops and a bunch of
years of paying attention to better dancers (dance partners and others)
than myself. There was nothing off-putting about Mon night at the
Scouthouse for me, when I was there as a stranger.
Phil Katz
Seattle, WA
ph...@whatnext.apl.washington.edu
Fred Wersan
of years, most contra dances are too fast.
Speaking as a banjo player, most contra dances are too slow.
[smiley face goes here]
-----------------------------------
Fred Wersan
Quest Engineering Solutions
Documentation Services
MA30/807
300 Concord Rd.
Billerica, Mass. 01821
508-294-2322
f.we...@bull.com
____________________________________
Jon Leech
|> I do, too, for almost all dances.. One interesting piece of "wisdom" I
|> picked up somewhere in my career as a dance musician is that speed smooths
|> out choppiness and improves flow. One (of the few) reason(s) I might urge
|> the tempo faster (while playing) would be if I saw rookies bouncing and
|> flailing and in general not knowing what to do with the time.
Something I've observed about people who were first contra dancers
before learning ballroom: a large fraction of (followers, at least) have a
very hard time slowing their bodies down to stay with moderately slow music
- rumba, triple time swing, slow waltz, foxtrot, etc.. Presumably there's
something about either who's attracted to contras or dancing as practiced at
contras that's related to this effect.
Jon
__@/
Toby Koosman
> Something I've observed about people who were first contra dancers
>before learning ballroom: a large fraction of (followers, at least) have a
>very hard time slowing their bodies down to stay with moderately slow music
>- rumba, triple time swing, slow waltz, foxtrot, etc.. Presumably there's
>something about either who's attracted to contras or dancing as practiced at
>contras that's related to this effect.
It's just plain hard to dance slow. Maybe they get complacent because
contras are done at walking tempo, where you don't have to work at the
rhythm? I teach morris dancing, and I have trouble with some people who
can't wait for the beat to step or clash. They're usually contra dancers
first, but I can't tell if that has any bearing.
Toby Koosman
>Andy Tannenbaum writes
>> I found that a large difference between the YI dance and other dances
>> in this area was that their extremely fast tempo tended to divide the
>> dancers into "cans" and "cannots."
>
I was wondering at this myself. I've never danced at the Scout House but
Tony Parkes & Yankee Ingenuity have played our festival a couple of times
and they didn't play extraordinarily fast. Maybe they figure we're slow
in the South, but. My experience has been that superfast tempos are
characteristic of inexperienced bands (or nervous callers), not folks like
that.
>> Those who are able to keep up the
>> pace tend to reserve ahead with each other, in order to avoid the
>> "cannots" who tended to fumble or panic their way down the floor. I
>> didn't like the reserving, the panicking, the fumbling, the
>> segregation, etc.
>
>What I observe is that the Mon night scouthouse dances are in fact a bit
>high-intensity (different from fast in tempo) and elitist; there _isn't_
>as much of a reaching out to "cannots" as in some dances. But mygosh it
>_is_ somewhat justified; thst particular dance (and its band) known
>around the country, I think, as one of the classics. There is nothing so
>terrible in a dance, of its own accord, selecting in favor of dance
>competence and expecting the rookies to have picked some up somewhere, or
>to have to work at it a bit (even quite a bit) at the start.
"Cannots" are not just rookies. I'm not gonna lecture Boston about its
dance culture, but I personally like a dance community that can accommodate
older people, kids, klutzes, and the out-of-shape, as well as newcomers.
There are two kinds of contra dancers: those who think the Mecca of contra
dancing is the Scout House (or Glen Echo), and those who think it's Nelson,
New Hampshire...
Dan Pearl
>(Phil Katz expressed his skepticism about the tempo being extremely fast)
>
>I was wondering at this myself. I've never danced at the Scout House but
>Tony Parkes & Yankee Ingenuity have played our festival a couple of times
>and they didn't play extraordinarily fast. Maybe they figure we're slow
>in the South, but. My experience has been that superfast tempos are
>characteristic of inexperienced bands (or nervous callers), not folks like
>that.
I'm a semi-regular dancer at the Scout House, myself. Let me be the first
to say: Everyone is right. A lot depends on who the guest musician is.
It seems with an accordion player, the tempos will be lower; with a fiddler
(especially one who is comfortable with the YI repertoire, like Kerry Elkin)
the tempos seem to be higher.
Sometimes the tempo for the dance is 128 or higher; very rarely
it is below, say, 120 (only for the occasional "elegant"-feeling dance).
When you compare the tempos used at the YI Scout House dance now with those
used on the original YI recording ("Kitchen Junket"), you will plainly
observe that tempos are now faster, in general.
The YI tempo gets uncomfortably fast only occasionally.
>There are two kinds of contra dancers: those who think the Mecca of contra
>dancing is the Scout House (or Glen Echo), and those who think it's Nelson,
>New Hampshire...
I must be a third type of dancer, because I think that is room for these, and
other dance models. The activity is strong enough to support both!
Let's celebrate this, and not bash each other about tempos!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Pearl ** Stratus Computer, Inc. ** pe...@spectacle.sw.stratus.com
Jonathan Sivier
[various and sundry observations on tempo deleted]
>"Cannots" are not just rookies. I'm not gonna lecture Boston about its
>dance culture, but I personally like a dance community that can accommodate
>older people, kids, klutzes, and the out-of-shape, as well as newcomers.
>There are two kinds of contra dancers: those who think the Mecca of contra
>dancing is the Scout House (or Glen Echo), and those who think it's Nelson,
>New Hampshire...
I, personally, am glad we have both. I've just been reading "A Time To
Dance" by Richard Nevell (I found several copies in a local used book store)
and so I actually understand the reference to Nelson. I feel that the local
weekly dance should attempt to emulate Nelson, the local community coming
together to dance, welcoming visitors, but accessable to as many as possible.
Dance weekends, festivals and other special dances are times when the
extended dance community (i.e. dance gypsies) come together and dance. Here
there is less (or no) concern for the needs of beginners (actual or permanent),
but that's OK because you're dealing with a different audience than at a local
weekly dance. The weekly dance (here at least) will never be like Glen Echo
and shouldn't try to be. That doesn't mean that we have to gear the program
only for the lowest-common denominator. We can still have variety and
energetic and challenging dances. It's just that a challenging dance at the
local dance may not be considered to be challenging at a dance weekend. I
know people who come home from a dance weekend and expect the local dance to
be just like that and thus are disappointed and complain about the local dance.
I think they are missing the point. Both situations can be enjoyable in their
own ways, if you let yourself enjoy them.
Sorry if I've rambled on too long.
Jonathan
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Kiran Wagle
>Toby Koosman writes:
>>There are two kinds of contra dancers: those who think the Mecca of contra
>>dancing is the Scout House (or Glen Echo), and those who think it's Nelson,
>>New Hampshire...
I tend to prefer faster tempi on an average night for several reasons
which I can't state clearly right now. <grumble> I do think faster
tempi do help keep lines on time, but that might be a misperception.
And I think it's easier to give weight if one is moving faster.
>I must be a third type of dancer, because I think that is room for these, and
>other dance models. The activity is strong enough to support both!
>Let's celebrate this, and not bash each other about tempos!
I haven't seen any bashing in this discussion.
I tend to think that the best tempo depends on both the dancers and the
dance. Dances such as Petronella and Dancing Sailors seem to want
faster tempi, and other dances (whose names I can't remember) seem to
want slower ones. And my take on tempi depends on who I'm dancing with,
too. I remember a 5am dance at Sugar Hill a few years ago. I was
dancing with a wonderful dancer from Louisville, who could give weight
exquisitely at very slow tempi, and the dozen other couples on the floor
were also quite good, and we did a dance where every move
languidly flowed into every other move. Was really neat. But more
often, at slow tempi I end up dancing with limp dancers the whole time.
This doesn't offer much of an algorithm for deciding upon tempi, except
that I like slower tempi with mroe experienced dancers later in an
evening, and faster tempi on dances with lots of twirls and short moves.
It does, however, seem a bit silly to be discussing _an_ ideal tempo.
it depends on _at least_ the dance in question, and a lot on who one is
dancing with.
~ Kiran <gr...@netcom.com>
Greg McKenzie
Koosman) wrote:
>
> There are two kinds of contra dancers: those who think the Mecca of contra
> dancing is the Scout House (or Glen Echo), and those who think it's Nelson,
> New Hampshire...
>
Actually there are really only two kinds of contra dancers: those who
think the Mecca of contra dancing is on the East Coast, and those who think
it's on the West Coast. I tend to think it's here in Monterey. (Of
course, what do I know. I'm going to NEFFA again this year.)
:)
Greg McKenzie
Monterey, CA
Markus Zellner
>Time to stop rambling and start sleeping. But first, I recently received the
>remaining dance booklets ("Spinnradl") from Bavaria, as well as an events
>calendar of Bavarian dance courses, groups, amd festivals. (Amazing how many
>MWSD groups there are:-) Also, a delightful 14 page booklet "Folk Dance in
>Bavaria" by Beni Eisenburg, which mentions such gems as "The Zwiefache was
>the most popular Bavarian dance in the Middle Ages. It was called the
>Tratzeter." and how Morris Dance spread like an epidemic in the late 15th
>century and lasted until 1880. There's even a connection between Z. and M. :-)
>And how Polka (meaning "half" -- thus "two-step") came from Czech-Bohemia.
>How the French (Fleuret) and the Scots (Sword Dance) had this step already,
>and how the Polka got to Vienna via Prague, and from there to London (1849),
>when Johann Strauss Sr. played his polkas for Queen Victoria.
I "facilitate" (other words for boss around) a German display dance
group, and we are constantly on the lookout for new material, both
dances and the accompanying music, which we can use to increase our
repertoire. I would be interested in finding out where you got your
dance booklets from (especially the Bavarian events calendar), or any
other sources of German and Austrian dances that you may know about.
I am willing to trade ! I have online copies of the instructions for
most of the dances that our dance group performs. I can post them if
there is sufficient interest.
--
Markus Zellner | PhD student | Markus....@cs.anu.edu.au
Path: cs.anu.edu.au!mwz
From: m...@talitha.anu.edu.au (Markus Zellner)
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Re: Tempo
Date: 15 Apr 1994 09:31:34 +1000
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <mwz.76...@cs.anu.edu.au>
References: <1994040413...@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU> <david6Cn...@netcom.com> <Cnxq5...@scilink.org>
Reply-To: Markus....@anu.edu.au
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4
pe...@renzland.org (Peter Renzland) writes:
>Time to stop rambling and start sleeping. But first, I recently received the
>remaining dance booklets ("Spinnradl") from Bavaria, as well as an events
>calendar of Bavarian dance courses, groups, amd festivals. (Amazing how many
>MWSD groups there are:-) Also, a delightful 14 page booklet "Folk Dance in
>Bavaria" by Beni Eisenburg, which mentions such gems as "The Zwiefache was
>the most popular Bavarian dance in the Middle Ages. It was called the
>Tratzeter." and how Morris Dance spread like an epidemic in the late 15th
>century and lasted until 1880. There's even a connection between Z. and M. :-)
>And how Polka (meaning "half" -- thus "two-step") came from Czech-Bohemia.
>How the French (Fleuret) and the Scots (Sword Dance) had this step already,
>and how the Polka got to Vienna via Prague, and from there to London (1849),
>when Johann Strauss Sr. played his polkas for Queen Victoria.
I "facilitate" (other words for boss around) a German display dance
group, and we are constantly on the lookout for new material, both
dances and the accompanying music, which we can use to increase our
repertoire. I would be interested in finding out where you got your
dance booklets from (especially the Bavarian events calendar), or any
other sources of German and Austrian dances that you may know about.
I am willing to trade ! I have online copies of the instructions for
most of the dances that our dance group performs. I can post them if
there is sufficient interest.
--
Markus Zellner | PhD student | Markus....@cs.anu.edu.au
--
--
Markus Zellner | PhD student | Markus....@cs.anu.edu.au
--
--
Markus Zellner | PhD student | Markus....@cs.anu.edu.au
Toby Koosman
tako...@utkvx.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) writes:
>>There are two kinds of contra dancers: those who think the Mecca of contra
>>dancing is the Scout House (or Glen Echo), and those who think it's Nelson,
>>New Hampshire...
>
>I must be a third type of dancer, because I think that is room for these, and
>other dance models. The activity is strong enough to support both!
>Let's celebrate this, and not bash each other about tempos!
Your point's well taken. I don't mean to be divisive. I _like_
"hot" dancing. Driving, energetic music; dances that flow just
right, dancers that are ready to meet your eyes, give weight and
swing you out of this world...Dance Nirvana. Yet there are other
rewards beyond the physical. Dancing and music (in that order)
are the basis of my community, without which I'd still be, uh,
solitary and well read. I like to see people develop, come out
of their shells, find a use for their skills (we run a dance
weekend, so we have a use for everybody's abilities). One of
the merits of contra dancing is that it delivers what "folk
dancing" seems to promise: something anyone can master well
enough to enjoy themselves, and which, with luck and proper care,
does not lead inevitably to an elitist ethic of "cans" vs.
"cannots". ( How can you be a snob about something that's not
that difficult?)
I do other kinds of dancing, and I understand the different
rewards of something that takes a greater skill and investment.
If you live in Boston, you can actually choose between contra
dances of various speeds, so to speak. Most of us not having
that luxury are understandably protective about our dance
culture. I take the view that if you find contra dancing
insufficiently challenging, you should join a square dance club
or something, instead of trying to change contra dancing into a
more demanding activity that lacks the accessibility that I
value. (I have regrets about contra medleys, for instance.)
There will always be people who are frustrated that the home
dance isn't "hot" enough, and others wringing their hands about
elitism and loss of community (as they say about usenet, "Death
of Contra Dancing Predicted"). Most of us want it all, really.
DanielEye
Koosman) writes:
> One of the merits of contra dancing is that it delivers what "folk
>dancing" seems to promise: something anyone can master well
>enough to enjoy themselves, and which, with luck and proper care,
>does not lead inevitably to an elitist ethic of "cans" vs.
>"cannots". ( How can you be a snob about something that's not
>that difficult?)
Right-on Toby, Down with contra fascism! Death to the dance Nazis!
David Pritchard
In article <gregmc-14...@162.49.74.64>, gre...@pdsc.com (Greg
McKenzie) writes:
:In article <13APR199...@utkvx.utk.edu>, tako...@utkvx.utk.edu
:(Toby
:Koosman) wrote:
:
:>
:> There are two kinds of contra dancers:
:Actually there are really only two kinds of contra dancers:
No, sorry, there are actually two kinds of contra dancers: those
who think contra dancers can be split into two kinds, and those that
don't.
--
Dr David J. Pritchard
Electronics and Computer Science tel (+44 703) 592722
University of Southampton fax (+44 703) 593045
Southampton SO17 1BJ <= Note Change
Bryan Walls
!|> My point is that the rightness of any given tempo seems to
|> depend upon who you're playing for (within obvious limits, of
|> course!) The general Zeitgeist of the country seems to be moving
|> towards 'Aerobic' dancing (fast, with every dance ahving two swings
|> in it), which I am sad about. But I cannot earn a living by playing
|> what I think people ought to like, only by playing what they do like!
|>
|> Peter Barnes
|>
I do think this will change as the median age increases. Actually, I expect it
will start to be a problem in a very few years, as young people come in and us
older folks don't want to leave. The choices will be to 1) tailor dances for
those of us who have been with the dances, losing the next generation, and
watching the dance form die; 2) let the young folks take over as we get older,
and retire if we can't hack what they make it; 3) Compromise, so that everyone
enjoys dancing a little, but no one (much) enjoys it a lot (this is at the heart
of political correctness, but will also lead to the dance dying eventually as
people find other things they really like); or 4) Have a spectrum of dancing
including selections from 1, 2, and 3.
--
Bryan Walls
bwa...@marvin.msfc.nasa.gov
(All the usual disclaimers :-))
P J Barnes
Tannenbaum) writes:
I'd like to say, in response to Andy's letter and comments in
general, that tempo is not such a simple thing that you can say 'All
jigs or reels should be played at 115-120 beats-per-minute'. Yankee
Ingenuity did indeed put out a questionnaire - one person (Andy, I
can only assume) complained about the tempos being too fast. Three
(out of a total of 50) said the band played too slow! All of the rest
of the respondents said it was fine or made no comment at all.
As a point of interest, due in large part to Andy's vociferous
complaints, we did attempt to slow down the tempos, a move both Mary
Lea and myself favored, as playing is a heck of a lot more enjoyable
at slower tempos. Soon, we started receiving complaints that the
dancing lacked 'energy' or enthusiasm. People said things like 'hey,
we came here to sweat' or 'lven it up a little, will you?'!
Susan K Kevra
tempo business is too much for me to resist.....
In general I feel that I've seen the zeitgeist of the contra
dance world move towards faster tempos, flashier dances, more
sensationalistic music, etc, etc... Fortunately, I currently live
in a contra dance haven where you can find a wide range of contra
environments, where alternative experiences are desired and can be
created.
I tend to prefer a more gentle tempo (as well as less flashier
arrangements) as I believe it creates a friendlier more welcoming
experience for a wider range of skill levels and ages.
We're pretty sure this eliminates a number of people looking for
more excitement than they probably find at our dance. But we fill
the hall, there is plenty of room to dance and we like the general
feel that seems to be developing over time.
I think one person mentioned briefly that one way for inexperienced
or medium-skilled musicians to get more energy into the music is to
simply play faster. Some very experienced and highly-skilled musicians
also do this. There really are other ways to instill energy into the
music.
Many many years ago, our band was playing for a folk-dance party with
another band. We wanted to play a ruchenitsa (a fast 7/16 Bulgarian dance)
but didn't have a tune in common. So the other band started with some
tune they knew and we just sequed into a completely unrelated tune when they
were done. The dancers were annoyed with us for "changing the tempo" so
drastically, it was so fast (they said) that it was almost impossible to
dance to.
Marianne Taylor and I had a rather heated argument over this supposed
tempo change (I insisted there was none). It so happens I had a tape of
the offending medley, sat her down with it and challenged her to prove to
me that the tempo had changed at all much less radically. She finally
admitted, after listening to the hard evidence that it hadn't.
What were the differences? Their tune was mainly 1/8 note oriented and
ours was mainly 1/16 note oriented. Their rhythm was not as tight as ours.
In general that band I was with was a very hard driving band (Alan Bern
was known to destroy accordions on a monthly basis) and the other was more
laid back.
A summary of my thoughts on tempo would be.
1) Metronome markings tell only a small part of the story
2) Rhythm and the way it is treated plays a larger part than is
generally recognized
3) Supposedly quantifiable aspects of music (like tempo) are far more
subjective than is generally recognized
Sorry this is so long, but this is actually a short version of
the immense piles of junk littering my mind.
Bill Tomczak
Sean Goddard
:...in general, that tempo is not such a simple thing that you can say 'All
: jigs or reels should be played at 115-120 beats-per-minute'. Yankee
I don't know whether this is relevant or not, but anyhow, here it is.
Tempos used here in England for Contra and Square dances are, faster
than those noted here. Most of the Contra Dance music produced for the
EDFSS back in the 1950s (on 78s) and followed through in the 1960s and
70s by 45s and then the Lps zipped along at around 128 per minute. I
know, I have timed many of these records and each 32 bars take 32
seconds! [I don't know if you US dancers know of these bands but I'm
talking about The Ranchers, The Haymakers, The Southerners, etc - well
known English Bands from that period).
If you went to a public dance, the range and speed of tempo stayed more
or less static - unless there was an interfering factor. It is amazing
what a pint of beer, or more, does to tempo - it can become eratic!
Sean Goddard
Brighton
England
Jonathan Sivier
I think this is the case in many places in the country. Unless you are
so lucky as to be in a major contra dance mecca your dance crowd won't have
a monotonic composition. Here in Urbana, Illinois, we get 50 to 60 dancers
on a typical dance night (not all at once, they come and go during the evening)
and they range from kids around 10 or 12 to people in their 60's and 70's.
The range in skill levels is equally broad. So no one tempo or dance difficulty
level will work for the whole evening. It's necessary to start out with simple
dances at a slow tempo and work up to more complicated dances at various
tempii. It's impossible to satisfy the whole crowd the whole evening.
Compromises have to be made where you cater to different sub-groups needs and
desires at different parts of the evening. I, personally, think this is fine
and enjoy all the portions of the dance program. However there are people
who complain because they aren't getting everything their way. This includes
people who feel we should reduce everything to the lowest common denominator
and people who feel we should ignore the needs of those who can't keep up and
that we'll be better off without them. The truth is we need all of these
people to keep the dances going. I have found though that two very important
elements in determining the energy level PERCEIVED by the dancers is the
quality of the music (not so much the tempo) and the attitude of the caller.
If the music is good they won't notice, as much, that it's a bit slower, and
if the caller is energetic and enthusiatic they'll have a great time even if
the dances are a bit simpler than they think they want. Also if the caller
treats the (lower skill level) dancers as if they can do the dances, then
they'll be able to most of the time and if the caller treats them as if they
won't be able to do the dances, then low and behold, they won't be able to.
Joel L Breazeale
P J Barnes <pjba...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <2oci0o$1e...@steamer.clam.com>, t...@steamer.clam.com (Andy
>Tannenbaum) writes:
>
>
> My point is that the rightness of any given tempo seems to
>depend upon who you're playing for (within obvious limits, of
>course!) The general Zeitgeist of the country seems to be moving
>towards 'Aerobic' dancing (fast, with every dance ahving two swings
>in it), which I am sad about. But I cannot earn a living by playing
>what I think people ought to like, only by playing what they do like!
I believe it is possible to have your cake and eat it too. Much of
the problem here is the leadership of the series did not educate the
dancers on the advantages of flexibility and that coming for the sake
of socializing first keeps the dance series open to newcomers.
I believe you should not listen to the vocal minority. If you truly
want to do what you want (slow things down), then operate a slower/
friendlier dance and advertize the heck out of it in the local area.
You'll have locals who like the dance, who will be a loyal following.
If you cater to the vocal minority then you risk driving off the folks
who just want to have a good time and get turned off by aerobic dancing.
This "leveling" of contra dancing undermines the original purpose (at
least it served this purpose though I don't know if it was stated) -- it
is a community dance form which is supposed to be approachable. The
modern western square dancers have taken an approachable dance form and
done a good job of making it unapprochable (you have to take lessons),
so how much more unapproachable can contra dance get before commericalism
becomes less important than keeping the dance form from self-destructing?
The MWSD folks now have a self-destruction on their hands; I don't think
the contra dancers have to face that if a little common sense and education
are applied right now.
Another issue: You serve to set an example which others follow. If
others emulate what you do then you cause whatever you do to spread.
Please set an example which helps to maximize the openness and approach-
ability of contra dance.
Aerobic dancing is OK, but if you call it "aerobic contra dancing" perhaps
you will make sure the general public has some hint as to a pitfall they might
find, that way the folks who might be turned off can go to a "community
contra dance."
Be what you want and say what you are!
Regards,
Joel
Peter Renzland
>Tempos used here in England for Contra and Square dances are, faster
>than those noted [in NE]. Most of the Contra Dance music produced for the
>EDFSS back in the 1950s (on 78s) and followed through in the 1960s and
>70s by 45s and then the Lps zipped along at around 128 per minute. I
>know, I have timed many of these records and each 32 bars take 32
>seconds!
Hm. They don't still use Imperial Minutes in England, do they? :-)
How about a thread meld with the discussion on Traditional Irish Dance?
Larry Lynch: "Set Dances of Ireland -- Tradition & Evolution" 1989
p. 5,6:
"The tempo of the music also differed from region to region.
In general. however, the music everywhere was played more slowly
over 40 years ago than today."
Type of Music Beats/Minute in past Beats/Minute 1989
reels 98-116 113-132
polkas 102-130 127-159
jigs 98-125 125-159
hornpipes 72-104 93-117
"The main reason for this increase in tempo has been the revival of sets
in competition form. Dancing sets for exhibition and competition is
livelier than was dancing sets for social enjoyment. Dancers and dance
teachers today want musicians to play faster. What is lost in the process,
however, is the rhythm of the music which allowed the old-time dancers to
exhibit their gracefulness on the floor."
I don't suppose the tempo for Zwiefache has changed much since the Middle
Ages. But I could be wrong. (Sorry, no LP's handy from those days:-)
But here's something that might amuse you:
From: "Der Volkstanz in Bayern", by Beni Eisenburg 1977:
"It is reported that Johann Strauss, when playing for a dance, always
picked a good dancing couple and adjusted his tempo to this couple.
A wrong tempo can murder a beautiful dance. "
Perhaps over here the speed-up in Contras and Irish sets is being
"compensated" by a slowdown in the waltzes:-) Even at dances where one
might expect nice flowing country waltzes, I've encountered "ballroom"
("box-step" speed) waltzes. Especially with swing-dance musicians and
dancers. When there is a beautiful flowing-turning proper speed country
waltz, it's always such a delight to be able to dance in the exhilerating
fast outside lane, with slower traffic keeping closer to the centre, and
on-the-spot-dancers staying in the middle.
And any dance teacher/caller who knows and reminds dancers about traffic
conventions for turning couples dances, such as "passing on the outside",
"slower traffic to the inside", "if you have to stop, move inside, or into
a corner, but don't just stop dead in moving traffic", can help dancers at
various levels enjoy turning couple dances more. I suspect a lot of beginning
dancers just don't know that there is an interior "safe" zone, etc. :-)
And now for something completely different (and related to yet another
thread):
In rural Bavaria, there were times when one didn't dance, namely
during Advent (before Christmas), and during Lent (before Easter).
There was also an injunction against dancing in the summer (except
for some festivals) in many regions.
There were actual "Dance Police" (no kidding!!) in the 16th and 17th
century, to enforce these dance-pauses. But the Advent and Lent pauses
are still honoured, even in towns.
This is turning out to be very silly. Time to go dancing ...
--
, @ _{)_ , Je danse
@__{) Peter Renzland Pe...@Renzland.Org \/( )\/"\/\ /\/ donc je suis
(>~(] Toronto Traditional Social Dance /=\ /==\ tanztoll EntP
/\ /| Calendar - Network - Archive /___\ |/\| 416 323-1300
/( (\ finger / mail Da...@Renzland.Org _/ \_ \# _# Kia Ora!
Toby Koosman
>towards 'Aerobic' dancing (fast, with every dance ahving two swings
>in it), which I am sad about. But I cannot earn a living by playing
>what I think people ought to like, only by playing what they do like!
(Hi, Peter!) I hope we don't catch this disease. But I remarked recently
playing for ECD on how much faster people can walk on a different night of the
week--the English C. dancers think you're taxing their hearts at 112. At
contras, my (biased and self-serving, as usual) impression is that the more
skilled dancers prefer slower tempos. Those who are attuned to phrasing and
rhythm don't get much pleasure out of extra speed. But that's a minority,
so it doesn't surprise me that people would "vote" to speed up. The hazard in
the questionnaire approach though is that most people think a tune with more
notes is faster than a sparser tune at the same tempo, and that energetic and
fast are identical. You might not be giving them what they want after all.
Sean-- are there 64 seconds in a British minute? I thought it was just the
pints and quarts.
Toby Koosman tako...@utkvx.utk.edu
P J Barnes
bwa...@marvin.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Bryan Walls) writes:
Dear Bryan -
my heart leaps when you say 'When young folks come in..." Ah, if only
that would happen! I'd play at 200 beats per minute if I thought we
could get a younger crowd into the dancing - at least here in New
England!
But then - maybe they'd like it slow and sultry! Or maybe they'd
want it to be 'really traditional; you know, like they did in the
60's!'
Peter Barnes
P J Barnes
al...@central.susx.ac.uk (Sean Goddard) writes:
Once again, goes to show ya'
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!!
Peter Barnes
P J Barnes
(Jonathan Sivier ) writes:
Indeed, the wide range of ages and levels was par for the course when
I started dancing in New Hampshire over 20 years ago. Duke Miller
(Gawd, I HATE sounding like an old timer) practically called the same
program every week, but we loved the whole experience - and anyone
was welcome.
I guess things have gotten much more stratified now, in our area,
or at least in Boston. A much narrower range of both ages and
probably incomes prevails. Our loss.
Peter Barnes
P J Barnes
tako...@utkvx.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) writes:
Hi Toby!
Actually, only 3 people in the survey mentioned a desire for
faster tempos than we usually played - 3 out of 50. It really was a
non-issue.
And noteful (notey? note-ridden?) or not, a walking step follows
the pulse of the measures going by, not the number of notes in the
measures. I think Andy was complaining about having to move too fast,
not how many notes were being played per unit time.
And per your earlier note (As in 'Did we slow down Yankee
Ingenuity's tempos because we were down in Knoxville')- of course we
don't think Southerners are slower! (In fact, I confess to 'Southern
envy' - I wish I lived down there!)
Peter
P J Barnes
Breazeale) writes:
Say what?
Did I say we advertised our dance as 'aerobic contra dancing?'
Did I not say that the vocal minority was in fact against this so
called aerobic dancing?
How much of an example for sociability can I set whilst facing a
piano and pounding out G7 chords?!?
I found your letter rather hard to comprehend!
Peter Barnes
Cis Hinkle
>(In fact, I confess to 'Southern
>envy' - I wish I lived down there!)
Peter, c'mon down! You're welcome anytime!
Dean Herington
Tempos used here in England for Contra and Square dances are, faster
than those noted here. Most of the Contra Dance music produced for the
EDFSS back in the 1950s (on 78s) and followed through in the 1960s and
70s by 45s and then the Lps zipped along at around 128 per minute. I
know, I have timed many of these records and each 32 bars take 32
seconds!
32 bars in 32 seconds = 120 beats per minute. 128 beats per minute
would be 32 bars in 30 seconds.
--
Dean Herington internet: her...@dg-rtp.dg.com
Data General Corporation uucp: ...!uunet!dg-rtp!hering
62 Alexander Drive voice: 919-248-6120
Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 fax: 919-248-6108
Dan Breslau
> In article <2s35as$f...@search01.news.aol.com>,
> P J Barnes <pjba...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > My point is that the rightness of any given tempo seems to
> >depend upon who you're playing for (within obvious limits, of
> >course!) The general Zeitgeist of the country seems to be moving
> >towards 'Aerobic' dancing (fast, with every dance ahving two swings
> >in it), which I am sad about. But I cannot earn a living by playing
> >what I think people ought to like, only by playing what they do like!
>
> I believe it is possible to have your cake and eat it too. Much of
> the problem here is the leadership of the series did not educate the
> dancers on the advantages of flexibility and that coming for the sake
> of socializing first keeps the dance series open to newcomers.
[chomp]
> Another issue: You serve to set an example which others follow. If
> others emulate what you do then you cause whatever you do to spread.
> Please set an example which helps to maximize the openness and approach-
> ability of contra dance.
>
> Aerobic dancing is OK, but if you call it "aerobic contra dancing" perhaps
> you will make sure the general public has some hint as to a pitfall they might
> find, that way the folks who might be turned off can go to a "community
> contra dance."
Hi, Joel! (and Peter...)
I think there's a (very small) limit to how much "educating" the dance
leaders can provide; or rather, to how much the dance community will
tolerate and absorb. They're there to have fun, after all, and not
to learn. (Not necessarily to have fun by socializing, either; but
that's OK too, isn't it?) I'd prefer expending the "education budget"
on teaching dancers to dance politely and well... not necessarily on
matters of style and purpose, which really boil down to personal taste.
I heartily agree that leading by example is valuable. Some dancers can
be shown the benefits of slower and more graceful styles... but some can't.
I think we need to remember that trends come and go; today's aerobic
dancers may well give way to tomorrow's slower, more graceful dancers.
What really matters is that the community and the traditions keep
thriving.
--
Dan Breslau
da...@corp.logica.com
How does a doo-dah man truck, anyway?
Dan Breslau
Barnes) wrote:
Funny, Peter, when I started dancing as a bratty teenager 16 years
ago, I noticed very few dancers anywhere near my age. But now that
I'm a crotchety old 30-something ;-), I see a fair number of younger-
looking people in the halls... whenever I manage to get out there,
that is.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Sean Goddard
miscaluation. I indicated that 32 bars of music played in 32 seconds
equals 128 beats a minute. What I should have typed was 120 beats a
minute.
Humble apologises.
Nancy Mamlin
>envy' - I wish I lived down there!)
Do it!!! I haven't regretted a moment since I arrived here!
BTW, Peter - I have this photo of your golf swing ;-)
Nancy
nma...@unca.edu
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\ The above does not represent OIT, UNC-CH, laUNChpad, or its other users. /
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Andrea L Majewska
I was quite fascinated to see that the polka was being danced faster. In
the American polka communities it seems to be slowing down. The records
I have of polka music made back in the late fifties are much zippier than
the more recent things I have. I haven't done a LOT of polkaing lately,
but each time I do I keep wishing they'd play a little faster.
I had attributed the decrease in speed to the aging of the polka
audience, although my personal opinion is that a slower polka is much
more aerobic - you have to keep your body up in the air longer!
You make me wonder if the real reason isn't the old melting pot. Maybe
they've slowed down because there are people in the crowd and in the
bands from other traditions who like it that way.
Thoughts anyone?
Bob Mills
wrote:
>I'm actually waiting for what I think the next hot trend could be -
>ceili dancing
>as done in England and Scotland. All ages do it, it's simple but
>exciting,
>and the music is great, traditional tunes on accordion or fiddle or
>flute with
>a rock-and-roll rhythm section. Slow tempos, swaggering beat, it's
>pretty cool.
Seems to me the Clayfoot Strutters are trying to do this for contra?
Bob Mills
NoiseToys Phone: 1-609-683-0234
9 Charlton Street Fax: 1-609-683-4068
Princeton, NJ 08540 USA e-mail: deci...@tigger.jvnc.net
P J Barnes
Nancy....@launchpad.unc.edu (Nancy Mamlin) writes:
>Do it!!! I haven't regretted a moment since I arrived here!
Yes, Asheville, North Carolina, yum yum! Or Northern Georgia! I LOVE
it there!
>BTW, Peter - I have this photo of your golf swing ;-)
So how much do you want not to show it to any golfers?!? Actually,
I'd love to see it!
Peter
P J Barnes
(Dan Breslau) writes:
>I think there's a (very small) limit to how much "educating" the
dance
>leaders can provide; or rather, to how much the dance community will
>tolerate and absorb. They're there to have fun, after all, and not
>to learn.
I tried to make this point to Joel (in a private posting).
People want what they want, after all, they paid for a good time. It
is their desires which will shape how dancing goes - or the desires
of those left out of the current scene.
>I think we need to remember that trends come and go; today's aerobic
>dancers may well give way to tomorrow's slower, more graceful
dancers.
>What really matters is that the community and the traditions keep
>thriving.
Here, here! It is difficult for me to watch over the decline of
socially inclusive dance habits in favor of athletics, but I have
been around long enough to see
things come and go. The old yin-yang biz. And all in all, the scene
is doing remarkably well.
I'm actually waiting for what I think the next hot trend could be -
ceili dancing
as done in England and Scotland. All ages do it, it's simple but
exciting,
and the music is great, traditional tunes on accordion or fiddle or
flute with
a rock-and-roll rhythm section. Slow tempos, swaggering beat, it's
pretty cool.
Peter Barnes
P J Barnes
> But now that I'm a crotchety old 30-something ;-), I see a fair
number of >younger-looking people in the halls... whenever I manage
to get out there,
>that is.
>Your mileage may vary, of course.
Indeed, though not significantly!
True enough, I was the kid when I started, but unlike your scene,
nowadays evryone seems to be '30-somethings'.
Peter
Bob Mills
everyone's contributions to it greatly. Here are some other ideas.
First, I've noticed a distinct speed trend geographically, and it's *not*
faster in the south, as you'd expect from string band influence. In fact,
every year when I come to NEFFA, I swear I'm going to make whatever bands I
play with have the slowest tempos at the event. This year with Charlie and
Andrea, I almost succeeded, and we got a LOT of positive feedback for it.
While dancing, I notice the speeding up far more with jigs, which seem to be
played much too fast for comfortable dancing in the Boston area. I've
commented to Kerry and to Steve Z several times that FF's jigs are simply
too fast to even feel the figures. And I'm sorry, Peter, but 'Heating up
the Hall' makes me jittery.
I don't find ANY positive correlation between fast tempos and excitement, in
fact, if anything, the reverse. 'Slow and sultry'? Yes! Cajun tempos are
down at 90-95, and there's no lack of young folk there - actually, it has a
beautiful mix of age groups in southwest Louisiana, that we'd all envy for
contras.
Then there's Eileen Ivers' brilliant version of Father Francis Cameron, a
great reel. Everyone's mental image of this performance is of breathtaking
speed - in fact, the tempo is about 112 by my quartz metronome.
I've noticed that inexperienced callers often ask me for tempo changes,
while experienced ones never do. The corollary is that they're usually
wrong when they do, or have a very fixed idea of the dance, or misunderstand
what's causing bad dancing on the floor. But here's a tip for dealing with
this: just play louder if they ask you to speed up, or softer if they want
you to slow down - works every time!
Finally, my old band Tripping Up Stairs was infamous in its early days for
playing too fast, and I think it does go to the comment here previously
about playing faster when you can't play better. Or as Nick Hawes said once
at Ashokan in reference to experienced players not wanting to attend 'slow
jams': "You may think the slow jam is boring, but it really just takes
longer for your boring notes to go by." (My bad paraphrase of a brilliant
statement).
Linda Golder
Barnes) wrote:
> In article <danb-310...@158.234.144.162>, da...@corp.logica.com
> (Dan Breslau) writes:
> > But now that I'm a crotchety old 30-something ;-), I see a fair
> > number of younger-looking people in the halls...
>
> True enough, I was the kid when I started, but unlike your scene,
> nowadays everyone seems to be '30-somethings'.
Hmmm. Is the stratification of dance "scenes" an *urban* problem? I
notice it when I dance in the Boston area, but not here in southeastern
Massachusetts. The local dances seem to draw a good steady, well mixed
crowd... ages from early 20's (& the occasional teen or child) to 70's,
mixed economic strata (white & blue collar, retired & unemployed), a fair
number of beginners each week along with the regulars. Perhaps these
dances draw a mix because they *are* the local dances... we don't have the
broad range of dance possibilities which are available to urban dancers.
Tempo preferences can vary. Some of our local dances are known for
energetic dancing (faster tempo). The monthly Woods Hole dance for years
was kept at a slower tempo *specifically* to accomodate an older crowd...
tho this now seems to be changing. (The last WH dance had an exceedingly
fast tempo... challenging even for the 20 year olds, more so for us 40's,
almost impossible for the 60's & over. I'm not sure this was the intent.)
- Linda <lgo...@mbl.edu> Woods Hole, MA, USA
REEDZSTEIN
(Linda Golder) writes:
>Tempo preferences can vary. Some of our local dances are known for
>energetic dancing (faster tempo)
I have seen tempos change over the years that I have played for
contra dances. When I first started to play (in the early '80's), we
"southern" musicians (South of Connecticut!) were playing at
bluegrass-like tempos.
Now, I find that some of the Northern bands are playing MUCH faster
(tempo=120 or greater), while we tend to prefer a leisurely 108-112
down here in the Philadelphia area. The dancers seem to enjoy either
way, though some experienced dancers have complained about tempos
being either too slow or too fast! I guess it really is a preference
of your local community.
My own preference is to play slower. I find that the dancing is more
interactive, and as a musician, it is artistically more satisfying to
play the tune at a more moderate pace.
-Bob Stein (reedz...@aol.com)
Dan Breslau
> In article <2sili6$1...@search01.news.aol.com>, pjba...@aol.com (P J
> Barnes) wrote:
>
> > In article <danb-310...@158.234.144.162>, da...@corp.logica.com
> > (Dan Breslau) writes:
> > > But now that I'm a crotchety old 30-something ;-), I see a fair
> > > number of younger-looking people in the halls...
> >
> > True enough, I was the kid when I started, but unlike your scene,
> > nowadays everyone seems to be '30-somethings'.
>
> Hmmm. Is the stratification of dance "scenes" an *urban* problem?
[...]
I was wondering about this myself -- I thought my scene _was_ Peter's
scene as well. I haven't scene, err, seen as much of it lately as he
has, though.
Linda Golder
Breslau) wrote:
> In article <lgolder-03...@smac20.mbl.edu>, lgo...@mbl.edu (Linda
> Golder) wrote:
> > Hmmm. Is the stratification of dance "scenes" an *urban* problem?
> [...]
>
> I was wondering about this myself -- ...
You could also think of "urban" in terms of a very large & varied
collection of active dancers (which happens in most urban
areas). Universities can have this kind of effect.
Wherever you have a wide smorgasbord of dance *choices*, you may start
to see a stratification of interests, ages & cultures. If there are
enough dancers with enough free cash to spend on dancing & music, they
can support a wide range of choices.
We on Cape Cod have a strong & active contra community (tho a small
one compared to a city or university area), which is (so far)
unstratified. But we have few choices... the local dance *is* the
local dance. If we want *choices*, we have to travel off-Cape.