Settled Science?

[Andre Jute]

What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/

Andre Jute
Conservationist

[AMuzi]

It's not about measurement, logic or science. It's about
redistribution and control.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[slto...@gmail.com]

I have not figured exactly who is profiting from the global warming hoax but it certainly is plainly that.

Here is the data NASA is presenting as our present conditions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming#/media/File:Global_Temperature_Anomaly.svg
Since around 1880 there has been a measureable recovery from the Little Ice Age. So up to around 1980 you can see a slight gain in temperature. But look at that skyrocketing temperature after 1980!

These temperatures were easy to arrive at. Because of the massive and rapid growth of cities the Urban Heat Island Effect was dramatic and is virtually impossible to account for. Of course you COULD have simply taken the temperatures from the surrounding rural areas but that isn't what Obama demanded.

Even worse, remember these are MGT claims and they were gathering data from areas such as sites that HAD no weather stations. Oceanic areas in which ONE temperature measurement was taken by one passing ship and was used to represent the entire year.

There is a means of getting an accurate measurement of mean global temperature and it is with the Weather Satellite System launched in 1978 and brought on-line in 1979. NASA keeps this SAME record and did not use it for those claims. The project was run over a large part of its life by Dr. Roy Spencer who made it public:

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH_LT_1979_thru_September_2018_v6.jpg

If you compare these charts you discover that there has been no measurable heating since 1979. Only the normal chaotic weather changes from year to year. Perhaps a slight 0.1 degree C if that continues over time climate change and NOT the 1 degree C shown in the NASA.

The looney left thinks that the world should cease producing energy. But of course what that means is hundreds of millions of people dying of hunger in the third world. But the left doesn't care because the left consists of people that are so stupid that they make a mole look like Einstein.

So again we find that something very very serious is going on with these fools. They want to drain Hetch Hetchy dam in California because it gets in the way of fishies. They think that the new HUGE windmills are not hurting birds because they move too slowly. Well the ends of those blades are moving nearly 200 mph. They are killing nearly as many birds as the previous ones. Plus the sound off of the blades are killing the night-flying insect eating bats which causes a huge bloom of the bats.

They believe that solar cells are efficient and green and they are not. When you first install them they are about 10% more efficient than fossil fueled sources. But over time their output reduces and over more time they have to be replaced. They have to be maintained - even a light coating of dust will drop their efficiency from 10% to 5% making them useless. The inverters and/or batteries are EXTREMELY dangerous and expensive. While there are better batteries on the horizon using Lithium Ion batteries now is not a good idea.

I can go on about this subject literally for hours. AGW is a hoax on a scale with Marxism and should be recognized as such.

[news18]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 02:08:08 -0700, Andre Jute wrote:

> What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in
> a national broadsheet is now official:
> http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-
finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/

70 errors in how many points of data?

[news18]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 08:11:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


> It's not about measurement, logic or science. It's about redistribution
> and control.

Life has always been about that.

[Tosspot]

On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
> http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/

Fake news.

[Andre Jute]

Nah, the techie insiders, the ones responsible for maintaining the database at the HADCRUT, have for years been saying the "scientist" have screwed up the data by making grossly erroneous "adjustments" to altogether the wrong data. This isn't new, it isn't fake, it has just not been published in all the gory detail Dr McClean catalogues. Nobody has trusted the HADCRUT, one of the four great strands of the foundations of the global warming hoax, since Climategate exposed their lying and bullying of dissenters.

Andre Jute
If the "scientists" in a field behave like scum, you may safely bet that their "settled science" has more politics in it than science

[Andre Jute]

The reference is in the post. Look it up.

[jbeattie]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 5:08:55 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 8:38:13 PM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
> > On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
> > > http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/
> >
> > Fake news.
>
> Nah, the techie insiders, the ones responsible for maintaining the database at the HADCRUT, have for years been saying the "scientist" have screwed up the data by making grossly erroneous "adjustments" to altogether the wrong data. This isn't new, it isn't fake, it has just not been published in all the gory detail Dr McClean catalogues. Nobody has trusted the HADCRUT, one of the four great strands of the foundations of the global warming hoax, since Climategate exposed their lying and bullying of dissenters.
>

Really, a "science presenter"? From her own site: "A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages)." https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joanne_Nova

I suppose JoNova is better than Miss Cleo, maybe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZwLG7yJg1g

When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2153PnMzSw Screw those idiots who do the science day in and day out -- and screw their super-computers while we're at it.

-- Jay Beattie.

[news18]

I don't have to, I just wondered if you had a clue.
P.S. i loved the local "Black Thursday" link that talks about isolatec
weather events over the continent over years.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:35:13 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 5:08:55 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 8:38:13 PM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
>> > On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
>> > > What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
>> > > http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/
>> >
>> > Fake news.
>>
>> Nah, the techie insiders, the ones responsible for maintaining the database at the HADCRUT, have for years been saying the "scientist" have screwed up the data by making grossly erroneous "adjustments" to altogether the wrong data. This isn't new, it isn't fake, it has just not been published in all the gory detail Dr McClean catalogues. Nobody has trusted the HADCRUT, one of the four great strands of the foundations of the global warming hoax, since Climategate exposed their lying and bullying of dissenters.
>>
>
>Really, a "science presenter"? From her own site: "A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host;
author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed &
available in 15 languages)." https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joanne_Nova
>

Taken from the above mentioned site, "she often posts non-sensical
fiscal arguments; then breaks into a general bitching session about
anything..." One can only assume that she also rides a bicycle and
suffers from a brain concussion.

>I suppose JoNova is better than Miss Cleo, maybe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZwLG7yJg1g
>
>When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2153PnMzSw Screw those idiots who do the science day in and day out -- and screw their super-computers while we're at it.
>
>-- Jay Beattie.

--
Cheers

John B.

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:35:15 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too.

> -- Jay Beattie.

Gee, and here I was thinking you got your facts from Wikipedia.

AJ

[Jeff Liebermann]

Probably from Usenet. Last year, Phoenix AZ was the winner of the
record highest temperature award. Just one problem. The weather
station is located on the airport runway and seems to suffer from
local heating by the jet exhaust. I scribbled something on the
problem last year:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.electronics.design/XGaahAB4Wfc/8tM1q47dCQAJ>
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.electronics.design/XGaahAB4Wfc/VgXp6wsCCgAJ>

Gone to save the world from broken computahs....
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[jbeattie]

Wikipedia is no less reliable than JoNova. At least there are multiple people in the echo chamber, and there is no profit motive. One could also go to Alex Jones for complicated scientific information -- and vitamin supplements.

-- Jay Beattie.

[slto...@gmail.com]

What I find interesting is that those most loudly pro-AGW are those with the least training. Most of whom have received their entire knowledge on the subject from a single article in Popular Mechanics from an author who is also unqualified.

There is no AGW because CO2 has reached saturation of the available energy in its absorption bands at between 200 and 250 ppm. This is a naturally occurring level so man's addition to the CO2 carries no added absorption.

That CO2 bears no danger to anyone was known and was PUBLISHED by the Department of Commerce's science department which was the forerunner of NOAA around 1905 after Arrhenius published a paper around 1880 suggesting that the reason that the Earth was warmer out of direct sunlight than the Moon was because of the CO2 in the air. Arrhenius never ran any experiments himself but used data on the spectrum of sunlight that was reflected off of the Moon that was published in another paper.

So if you have any credentials then state them and we can discuss the hoax of AGW since I have studied the matter for many years.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Do I understand you correctly that you are using the number of books sold as validation of someone's expertise on a subject?

[slto...@gmail.com]

My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.

[John B. Slocomb]

And your credentials are? Never graduated from a school of higher
learning. Earned large sums of money but couldn't manage own money and
blames losses on someone else. Major memory losses, guns missing from
collection, etc.

Strange how you claim, on the one hand, to have substantial memory
loss and, on the other hand, brag how you've been studying a subject
"for many years".

But don't feel bad Tom, after all a study published in the journal
Psychological Science estimates that 40% of the 6,641 people surveyed
in the study have completely fictional memories of their lives.

The study goes on to say that "Crucially, the person remembering them
doesn't know this is fictional. In fact, when people are told that
their memories are false they often don't believe it."
--
Cheers

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT), slto...@gmail.com wrote:

>My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
>placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.

Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg>
It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.

"Distorted data? Feds close 600 weather stations amid criticism
they're situated to report warming"
<https://www.foxnews.com/science/distorted-data-feds-close-600-weather-stations-amid-criticism-theyre-situated-to-report-warming>

I can supply plenty more examples of bad sitting. However, most of
these abominations have been either moved or replaced by more modern
monitoring systems. Details if anyone wants them as this drifting
topic is rather far off bicycling tech.

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT), slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
> >placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.
>
> Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg>
> It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
> told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.

All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond, above Los Gatos, La Honda. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation

-- Jay Beattie.

[news18]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:00:06 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:


> The study goes on to say that "Crucially, the person remembering them
> doesn't know this is fictional. In fact, when people are told that their
> memories are false they often don't believe it."

Awwww, come on, that your wife talking. vbg.

[slto...@gmail.com]

So after attempting to misrepresent what I said and what my qualifications are you prefer to go with Obama. That's OK with me since I'll be able to laugh in your "settled science" face. What happened to that 97% of "all scientists" again?

Unlike you I don't need a memory of prior life. I have a resume and managers and associates that back it up. I suspect any prior associates of yours would prefer no one knows it.

[slto...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

They cannot make acceptable corrections for Urban Heat Island Effect since depending on location and windspeed this effect disappears only to reappear minutes later.

It has been shown that the temperature monitors in surrounding rural areas have completely different readings.

Now telling us the temperatures in cities is fine for urban dwellers informational purposes, but these do not represent real global temperatures.


Again: Here is Obama's demanded proof of global warming from NASA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming#/media/File:Global_Temperature_Anomaly.svg

And here is the actual mean global temperatures from NASA's director of the weather satellite program:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH_LT_1979_thru_September_2018_v6.jpg

There may be a little temperature rise due to the reduction in lower latitude and altitude glaciers as part of the recovery from the little ice age that ended circa 1850.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Do you have that wild-eyed look in your face as you're trying to pass this sort of crap off? EVERY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT contains a Federal weather station. In case you're unaware of it, temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind speed and wind direction are important. Most cities contain weather stations that meet Federal standards and that too is added to the temperature and wind records.

Tell me, are you preying that the world is going to end like the environmentalists are doing?

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:14:19 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:14:20 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute

Quoting:
"Garbage in, climate out.
--
Jeff Liebermann"

Definitely a "wish I said that!" moment.

Andre Jute
60 years in the trenches against the weather catastrophists and other nut cases

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:53:02 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 8:14:22 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:35:15 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> > > When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too.
> > > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > Gee, and here I was thinking you got your facts from Wikipedia.
>
> Wikipedia is no less reliable than JoNova.

Holy shit, you don't say.

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 10:36:53 PM UTC+1, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 12:38:13 PM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
> > On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
> > > http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/
> >
> > Fake news.
>
> What I find interesting is that those most loudly pro-AGW are those with the least training.

Training is irrelevant to the believers. Global warming is a belief system, a religion, more in the realms of pathology than science. There's more science in Scientology than in Global Warming.

The interesting thing is the professional organizations of scientists around the world have ethical guidelines or even rules against practice of or reliance by scientists on scientism, which is a magical belief that scientists know better ("97% of scientists agree that global warming is manmade" -- which contains three fallacies, to wit that [unnatural] global warming exists, that it is manmade, and that more than a tiny minority of scientists agree to the previous two fallacies). I would dearly love for these bodies to apply their own rules to people like Michael Mann, who is a stink bomb under the chair of respectable science.

But logic and rationality makes no impression on people who feel that they're acting in the service of Gaia, and that such activity makes them superior to the rationality that you and I apply to their shibboleth of global warming. You can't argue with religious fanatics.

Andre Jute
Just a pity so many of them are cyclists

[AMuzi]

If by 'Gaia' you mean 'International Communism' then I agree.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110112152054/http://thegwpf.org/ipcc-news/1877-ipcc-official-climate-policy-is-redistributing-the-worlds-wealth.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

Say Tom, did you look at the map? Did you check to see where the NOAA stations are near Jeff? Is there even one word about my post that is factually incorrect? I'll answer for you: no.

Why are you so invested in ruining the environment? Is it because you live in a godforsaken shit hole that would be improved by a nuclear bomb-blast? I don't. https://www.oregongravelgrinder.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/06-2012_Mt-Hood-Full-36copy.jpg

I suppose we could blow the top off Mt. Hood to see if there is coal inside or just run the sewer outflows right into the Willamette, like the old days. Maybe put a steel mill at Crown Point. https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/sunset-over-crown-point-jon-ares.jpg

The economic activity would far outweigh any long term degradation of human quality of life. People would have more money to buy Big Macs and Trans Ams. That's far more important than, say, a mountain or forest -- which by the way, produce plenty of economic activity on their own. Don't get me going about the price of a season pass. http://www.firsttracksonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/1415_aboutusmountain1.jpg (BTW, getting down from that spot is no easy feat). Whatever the cause of global warming, I can tell you that summer skiing on Mt. Hood has gone down the toilet.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Yep. I've been a weather nut for probably 30+ years. Here's my web
page for the local weather links.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/SLV%20Weather%20Links.htm>
Also, a page on fire related sites that needs lots of reformatting:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/SLV%20Fire%20Links.htm>
Both are somewhat out of date because both NOAA and USGS are
reorganizing their web piles. Real-soon-now.

The main weather station is at the CYA camp on top of Ben Lomond
mountain.
<https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/sites/site.php?station=BNDC1&network=CA_DCP>
Looks like they finally posted my photos. Cool.
It's a fairly typical RAWS type station. Circa 2013:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/BDC-Weather-Station-01.jpg>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/BDC-Weather-Station-02.jpg>
At this time, it's overgrown with brush, weeds, and ticks. The nearby
power station have grown fairly close, creating some heating issues
when the wind is blowing in the wrong direction. At 2600ft elevation,
it gets about twice as much rain as in the nearby valley. It's
probably the best functioning wx station in the area.

I don't have time to write a complete report on the condition of the
local weather stations. In general, they're awful. The station at
the Ben Lomond recycling station is under a tree. The station at
DelaVega Park is in a golf course, which regularly gets watered. Two
others appear on the maps, but do not exist. The air quality monitor
in Santa Cruz is located upwind, at the bottom of 3 sided valley, near
a freeway, which is guaranteed to concentrate CO2, NO, etc readings.

Then, there are the crowd sources weather stations, such Weather
Underground, CWOP, etc.
<http://www.wundermap.com>
These get their data from home weather stations, which are notoriously
and chronically badly sitted. CWOP tries to help by flagging stations
that produce bad data, but at the present rate of home stations on the
internet, the task is hopeless. This is what a properly sitted home
weather stations might look like. See Pg 7:
<https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/CWOP-Siting.pdf>

However, it doesn't matter. AGW and climate change research do NOT
use weather station data, unless the researcher is a masochist.
Weather data is short term and intended to help predict the weather a
few days ahead. Climate is all about predicting what will happen
years and centuries ahead. While weather and climate have much in
common, the data collection methods are very different. For example,
weather stations can move around quite a bit without causing much of a
panic, while stations dedicated to climate change need to be
permanently located in an area where encroachment is unlikely. For
example, the USCRN is one such network:
<https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/crn/>

For the previous 20 years, I helped maintain several mountain top
weather stations, mostly at radio sites. It was an unprofitable giant
pain in the posterior, but I certainly learned quite a bit about
weather stations, sensors, data collection, tweaking data, and
administrative politics. Thanksfully, I no longer do this.

I can go on forever on the topic, but I'm busy right now and need to
do something else. Later...

[Jeff Liebermann]

I can't tell if that's addressed to Jay or me. I'll assume it's for
me.

The two nearest airports to my house is San Jose (KSJC) about 30 miles
away, and Watsonville (KWVI) about 20 miles away. KSJC is on the
other side of a 3,000 ft mountain range and has radically different
weather than from my house in Ben Lomond.

The SJC weather station is located in the middle of the airport, which
is the ultimate heat island dues to the heat absorption from the
concrete and asphalt:
<https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/KSJC>
Most of the sensors are also affected by jet wash heating and
turbulence. KWVI is much better and is located away from the runways
and major heat and turbulence sources:
<https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/KWVI>
Their primary purpose is to supply current weather data for landing
and takeoff and are part of the ASOS/AWOS aviation weather systems.
<https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/weather/asos/?state=CA>
If you fly, such information is vital. If not, don't bother.

>Tell me, are you preying that the world is going to end like the
>environmentalists are doing?

Not to worry. All we need to do is start another shooting war and all
the concerns and activism on behalf of environmentalism will disappear
overnight. I watched it happen to ecology and the protest movement
after Kent State.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:21:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Quoting:
>"Garbage in, climate out.

>Jeff Liebermann"

>Definitely a "wish I said that!" moment.

It's one of my tag lines. I contrived it when I heard about the
latest abomination in data reduction. Since none of the climate
models of the day came even close to predicting past climate events,
it was decided that a better result could be produced by simply
combining all these models into one "standard" model. Since all the
models were known to have errors, but not necessarily in the same
direction, the combination of all these will cancel the errors out,
leaving accurate data. My reaction was the "garbage in, climate out"
statement in honor of the original "garbage in, garbage out" data
processing tag line. I'm told that improved satellite data and proxy
data accuracy has reduced the need for such averaging, but I doubt it.
<https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/are-more-accurate-climate-change-models-worse/>
"...as the models are becoming increasingly realistic, they
are also becoming less accurate and predictive because of
growing uncertainties."

I don't get involved much in climate research, which mostly deals with
satellite and proxy data. What little I've done with climate was
trashed by researchers refusing to provide raw data or indicate what
manner of corrections, normalizing, filtering, etc was done. I gave
up.

For your amusement, see my graph of rainfall records in the San
Lorenzo Valley since 1888:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall-06.jpg>
It's rather difficult to predict if we were on an increasing or
decreasing trend in rainfall. With a odd order polynomial curve
extrapolation, I can produce a rainfall increase (black line). With
an even order extrapolation, a decrease (green line).

A more current and realistic graph is at:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall.jpg>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall.xls>
Play with the data averaging curves and notice how easily they can be
tweaked. I also tried it with some random numbers, and got the same
effect.

>Andre Jute
>60 years in the trenches against the weather catastrophists and other nut cases

I keep waiting for my subsidy from the oil companies. Aren't all AGW
denialists supported by the oil companies?

[slto...@gmail.com]

Jeff, that was pertaining to Jay who is so far in over his head that it is unbelievable. He implied that there were some sort of magic weather stations when even the weather stations on top of TV stations feed data into the NOAA database.

Now that he knows that you're a weather fanatic perhaps he's come up with some other ridiculous subject to be wrong on. This is surprising to me since most of the lawyers I've ever known were extremely conservative because they see life up close and personal every day.

Jay appears to be completely blind. He probably thinks that those lawyers defending Trumps Trollops are doing so because they believe them.

[slto...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 11:13:46 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> >Andre Jute
> >60 years in the trenches against the weather catastrophists and other nut cases
>
> I keep waiting for my subsidy from the oil companies. Aren't all AGW
> denialists supported by the oil companies?

I think that there used to be real catastrophes to worry about and perhaps we have done such a great start on them that the Millennials have to invent problems that don't exist.

It is always the wild-eyed look that concerns me. People that do that are usually not of solid psychological standing. Like the INSTANT that Dr. Christine Ford said that she was psychologically damaged by two men standing over her and laughing I knew that she was actually and with forethought lying because ALL psychologists know that is something that a very large percentage of women have always feared - being laughed at by men. Since she had NEVER said that before anywhere or in any manner you simply had to know that she was playing her psychology game on the masses. We were to believe that she was a "survivor" of what exactly? A fully clothed man pushing his fully clothed body against her fully clothed body. Hmm, so damaged that she couldn't remember it for over 30 years until she became a Democrat activist.

[Andre Jute]

Sure, today's little fellow-travelers of environmentalism are neo-Marxists, but the originators of the destructive climate hysteria were billionaire Malthusians whose key intent was to limit population growth. It wasn't a conspiracy: they belonged to the Club of Rome, which published a book, The Limits of Growth, that clearly stated that in an increasingly secular society a new secular religion was required to help control the populace, and proposed that it should be climate change (they didn't care whether it was an ice age or global warming, and in fact sequentially tried both). Their leader and the founder of UNEP (the United Nations Environment Programme), the mother-agency of the IPCC, was the Canadian oil billionaire (yes, you read that right, his money came from oil) Maurice Strong. He ended his life as a Chinese environmental official. So, sure enough, a limousine Commie.

The Club of Rome counted too many would-be genocides among their members to list all of them here but a sample will do: they included Ted Turner of CNN who thought that the earth could maybe sustain 350,000 people and the rest would have to be sacrificed, Jacques Costeau the diver (and UN Courier -- an honorary position and platform), who thought that we could save the earth by killing between 3000 and 5000 people every day for a few years, and others who were much nuttier and more vicious. But it is from a book they collectively as the Club of Rome financed that the idea arose and was formulated of manmade climate catastrophe as a means of controlling the masses in the void created by the decline of formal religion. Compare for instance Maria Theresa, Dowager Empress of Austro-Hungary, in letters to her agnostic son the Emperor Joseph, strongly advising him to give at least the appearance of conforming to the State religion the more easily to control his subjects.

Notice that from the beginning in the 1960s the Club of Rome's climate catastrope plan was intended as an openly stated (in a book that became a worldwide bestseller) hoax on the public psyche. It was apparently only later that it occurred to Strong that scientific underwriting of the idea would bring credibility and faster dissemination to what in the beginning was merely a tentative propaganda idea: thus was the IPCC born with a mandate to find and prove manmade global warnmng. Nonetheless the IPCC's first report stated emphatically that there was no global warming, merely natural climate changes in an interglacial period, and that certainly man's puny efforts were not responsible for anything. But scientists soon got the idea, which the bureaucrats got instantly, that if their body was constituted to find something, they'd better find it, or the flow of funds would dry up. Hence the desperation and unscientific behavior of the entire climate catastrophe industry when contradicted by "deniers". It was a very effective plan, as we can still see right: the global warmies on RBT cling to their faith twenty years after global warming was exposed and disgraced, indeed twenty years after the exposure of the hockey stick as an artefact of statistical crookery (or incompetence) removed the last crutch of manmade global warming by reinstating the Roman and Medieval Warm Periods and the Little Ice Age which together make the concept of manmade global warming untenable because in the Roman and Medieval Warm Periods the earth warmed in the absence of industry and in the Little Ice Age the earth froze despite the smelters and ovens of the Industrial Revolution belching CO2. Oops!

Instead the earth has greened. CO2 is plant food. it feeds people. Environmentalists hate people.

Andre Jute
Now watch the clowns grip the tiger firmly by the tail and stick their thumbs up its arse

[AMuzi]

Atlantis, Phlogiston, Planet X, New Ice Age, Global Warming,
meh.

[jbeattie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly_ash_slurry_spill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal

One could go on about the horrible environmentalists. All they want to do is subjugate and destroy people, unlike industry. Every time I walk through pristine nature, I think, "gee, it would sure be nice if there were a strip mall here -- or maybe an oil derrick or a pit cyanide leach mine."

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:55:24 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Notice that from the beginning in the 1960s the Club of Rome's climate catastrope
>plan was intended as an openly stated (in a book that became a worldwide bestseller)
>hoax on the public psyche.

"The First Global Revolution"
<https://www.clubofrome.org/report/the-first-global-revolution/>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:24:51 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>Atlantis, Phlogiston, Planet X, New Ice Age, Global Warming,
>meh.

I have a print of this on my home office wall:
"A Rough Guide to Spotting Bad Science"
<https://www.compoundchem.com/2014/04/02/a-rough-guide-to-spotting-bad-science/>

Also, various authorities with severe cases of premature judgement:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 2:56:16 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:24:51 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >Atlantis, Phlogiston, Planet X, New Ice Age, Global Warming,
> >meh.
>
> I have a print of this on my home office wall:
> "A Rough Guide to Spotting Bad Science"
> <https://www.compoundchem.com/2014/04/02/a-rough-guide-to-spotting-bad-science/>

11. Peer review by your students and pals, often shorthanded as "the Michael Mann stain on the sheets".

> Also, various authorities with severe cases of premature judgement:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>

Actually, this forecast was right for about 60 or 70 years, which is good going for any prediction:
***
"That the automobile has reached the limit of its development is suggested
by the fact that during the last year no improvements of a radical nature
have been introduced."
-- Scientific American, 1909
***
Until the coming of independent rear suspension the Panhard/Hotchkiss solid axle/longitudinal springs rear end ruled under American cars, until the coming of fuel injection the internal combustion engine was fed fuel very much like in 1909, and so on. In its major elements (a wheel at each corner, Ackerman steering, braking by friction, suspension by flexible steel and rubber, lubrication by oil, fueled by petroleum products) even today's most sophisticated cars are not radically technically different from a 1909 car. The major advances have been in comfort.

Andre Jute
Credit where it is due

[Andre Jute]

Do consider my blood pressure, Jeff, if you please!

Andre Jute
Where's Bjorn Lomborg when you need him?

[Andre Jute]

I certainly hope, Jay, that you aren't by these links trying to justify a monstrous fraud on the public purse, which is all that global warming, and before that the big freeze, and before that the hole in ozone layer, all were.

>...the horrible environmentalists. All they want to do is subjugate and destroy people...

That's an exact description of their aims. The people who banned DDT and thereby committed the biggest genocide the world has ever seen knew for a fact that their claim that DDT caused cancer in humans was a lie. The nonetheless continued with their efforts to ban it to show the government who was boss. Their leaders said so at the time, the head of the EPA wrote in his memoirs that he knew what they were about and banned DDT as a convenient political action because Nixon was "busy elsewhere".

Environmentalists love animals and hate people. I listed some who want to murder most of us to depopulate the world in favour of the animals. I can make a much longer list, if you insist. They're all environmentalists in positions of power either through leadership or donations.d

> One could go on about the horrible environmentalists. All they want to do is subjugate and destroy people, unlike industry.

Industry is controlled and regulated and punished for stepping outside the lines. Who punished the environmentalists who, to save a few eagles who didn't need their help, lied that DDT caused human cancer, and in the process of banning DDT committed the largest genocide the world has ever see, more than 220m of the most powerless people on earth. I know lawyers don't believe in justice, but even for a lawyer yours is a breathtaking statement.

> Every time I walk through pristine nature, I think, "gee, it would sure be nice if there were a strip mall here -- or maybe an oil derrick or a pit cyanide leach mine."

Sure. I'm a conservationist who gave up a seven-figure salary to live and bring up my child in an idyllic countryside. So what? I'm not about to join you in your claim that that justifies genocides of third worlders, or keeping them oppressed in peasant poverty without industry. I leave that to the sanctimonious self-declared "good people" who claim they aren't racists. Very odd that most of their victims are yellow, brown or black.

> -- Jay Beattie.

Andre Jute
As a lifelong conservationist, I'm embarrassed by environmentalists

[jbeattie]

I'm sure you're making the world better for our brown-skinned brothers everyday, bringing them industry and enlightenment with your novellas, preferably in digital format to save trees.

The US EPA does not set international policy, and other nations are free to use DDT -- an they do use DDT -- to control mosquito populations, at least where mosquitoes have not developed a resistance. US C02 standards are not preventing any third-world nation from developing industry or keeping them in "peasant poverty" (say that ten times fast). India, for example, is enjoying the benefits of vigorous industry without the constraints of repressive environmental laws. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/01/new-delhi-s-air-pollution-is-twice-as-bad-as-beijing-s.html God bless them, each and every asthmatic one -- living free and unfettered by the genocidal environmental laws of their white oppressors.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:09:39 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 2:56:16 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:24:51 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >Atlantis, Phlogiston, Planet X, New Ice Age, Global Warming,
>> >meh.
>>
>> I have a print of this on my home office wall:
>> "A Rough Guide to Spotting Bad Science"
>> <https://www.compoundchem.com/2014/04/02/a-rough-guide-to-spotting-bad-science/>

>11. Peer review by your students and pals, often shorthanded as "the Michael
>Mann stain on the sheets".

In the distant past, I did a few peer reviews. Plenty of horror
stories which I won't bother to unload. Just about anyone, with
marginal qualifications, who has a well placed mentor can magically
become an authority on some topic. I know, because that's exactly
what I did. My only real complaint was that I rarely had enough time
to properly verify claims and references. This was before the
internet so I found myself living at various libraries. I gave up
before I went insane.

>> Also, various authorities with severe cases of premature judgement:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
>
>Actually, this forecast was right for about 60 or 70 years, which is good going for any prediction:
>***
>"That the automobile has reached the limit of its development is suggested
>by the fact that during the last year no improvements of a radical nature
>have been introduced."
> -- Scientific American, 1909

The Model T had been introduced the year before, which was quite
revolutionary in the way automobiles were built. It was the first
time that they were assembled on a production line instead of custom
creations contrived by carriage builders and engine mechanics. Not
radical enough, I guess.

How about the Ford Nucleon as a radical departure from the mundane 40
years later?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=nucleon+ford&tbm=isch>
Electric and steam cars preceded gasoline, so I guess those don't
really count as radical improvements. Diesel cars arrived in 1933,
which I would classify as a radical improvement. In 1909, I would
have placed my bets on the steam car over gasoline. However, that was
wrong because a steam car took 30 minutes to prepare for a drive,
while gasoline was ready immediately. Unibody construction came in
1960 and wasn't all that radical. Gas turbines became practical in
trucks in about 1950.

>Credit where it is due

Yep. With the prices on todays automobiles, you'll need credit to
afford one.

[Andre Jute]

Sneer all you like, pal. I ran food convoys across Africa to the hungry. What did you do?

> The US EPA does not set international policy, and other nations are free to use DDT -- an they do use DDT -- to control mosquito populations,

This is an outright lie. For two generations of genocide by American environmentalists, governments who insisted on using DDT would find that the World Bank would not give the loans, that American aid was cut off, etc. At least you didn't say patronizingly, like another RBTer, the wretched Peter Cook, that "we now allow them to spray DDT on their houses". But he has a better grip on how American diplomacy and aid works than you do.

>at least where mosquitoes have not developed a resistance. US C02 standards are not preventing any third-world nation from developing industry or keeping them in "peasant poverty" (say that ten times fast). India, for example, is enjoying the benefits of vigorous industry without the constraints of repressive environmental laws. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/01/new-delhi-s-air-pollution-is-twice-as-bad-as-beijing-s.html God bless them, each and every asthmatic one -- living free and unfettered by the genocidal environmental laws of their white oppressors.

In Paris the Indian foreign minister said plainly that CO2 control is a racist measure. I'm glad to see you're so tolerant towards Indians: "God bless them" -- though I'm not at all sure their god and yours are compatible.

> -- Jay Beattie.

Andre Jute

Listening

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 5:52:08 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:09:39 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute <> wrote:
>
> >Actually, this forecast was right for about 60 or 70 years, which is good going for any prediction:
> >***
> >"That the automobile has reached the limit of its development is suggested
> >by the fact that during the last year no improvements of a radical nature
> >have been introduced."
> > -- Scientific American, 1909
>
> The Model T had been introduced the year before, which was quite
> revolutionary in the way automobiles were built. It was the first
> time that they were assembled on a production line instead of custom
> creations contrived by carriage builders and engine mechanics. Not
> radical enough, I guess.
>
> How about the Ford Nucleon as a radical departure from the mundane 40
> years later?
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon>
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=nucleon+ford&tbm=isch>
> Electric and steam cars preceded gasoline, so I guess those don't
> really count as radical improvements. Diesel cars arrived in 1933,
> which I would classify as a radical improvement. In 1909, I would
> have placed my bets on the steam car over gasoline. However, that was
> wrong because a steam car took 30 minutes to prepare for a drive,
> while gasoline was ready immediately.

I have a soft spot for steam cars: silent, instant torque, mechanically simple (no gearbox), no vibration. With today's electronics you could start it from your iPhone when its alarm wakes you, and have it ready by the time you want to leave for work.

>Unibody construction came in
> 1960 and wasn't all that radical.

The American Budd company had a complete working, perfectly practical monocoque system by the late 1920s but American carmakers didn't want to know, though Chrysler made a small bet on unitary construction with the Airflow. Budd instead sold their system to Citroen, whose Traction Avant was one of the most successful cars of all time, and enjoyed a run of a whole generation. The Traction Avant was underslung because the bulky separate chassis was gone, and got an aerodynamic advantage as well, and was excitingly beautiful in its time, much like the DS which replaced it.

> Gas turbines became practical in
> trucks in about 1950.

I would call turbines a radical motive power change.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Of that group the most abused is "Conflict of Interest". The environmentalists act as if they are pristine but if a science program is financed by an oil company they consider that "conflict of interest" and that none of the study could possibly be correct. In fact, most of the oil companies finance the best science since they NEED it to plan for the future.

[slto...@gmail.com]

In one of the latest AAAS magazines they essentially said that NONE of the modern physiological studies have been replicable. Taking a closer look at this I see that the study sizes are preposterously small. But you have a difficult time telling people that they may or may not be getting a life saving drug.

[jbeattie]

I spent six years scraping up guts and taking people to hospitals. Want to talk about malaria?: http://botany.si.edu/colls/expeditions/expedition_page.cfm?ExpedName=17 That's my grandfather, William C. Steere. Here's his NYT obit:
https://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/08/obituaries/william-c-steere-81-botanist-and-teacher.html


His grandfather: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Beal_Steere I have his expedition journals. Anyway, Grandad was king of quinine and a huge environmentalist -- out to subjugate the downtrodden by tromping through the jungle looking for quinine. If you're father was in WW II, he may have been eating my grandfather's quinine.

> > The US EPA does not set international policy, and other nations are free to use DDT -- an they do use DDT -- to control mosquito populations,
>
> This is an outright lie.

Really? The EPA sets national policy, and it is no more responsible for the acts of foreign countries than is the UK Environmental Agency. The EPA may appear on behalf of the US and assist in the negotiate international treaties, but it has no international mandate. It does not control the world, and it barely has the funding to run its purely domestic operations.

The EPA is not USAID or the World Bank -- and you are free to criticize the policies of those entities at your leisure. But while you're going off the deep end, recall that the US can condition payments to other countries on whatever basis it so desires. If it decides to fund malaria abatement programs, it may chose not to fund DDT.

Moreover, it is not a secret that mosquito populations rose with the reduction in DDT use, and the USAID's early policies have been the subject to criticism and numerous congressional hearings, e.g. https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-109shrg21437/pdf/CHRG-109shrg21437.pdf Policy makers have been looking at this for decades. Spoiler alert -- we're paying for DDT.

We also haven't ratified the Stockholm Convention, and the Convention also allows DDT use for disease vector control.
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-017-2050-2

"In 2001, more than 100 countries signed the Stockholm Convention, a United Nations treaty which sought to eliminate use of 12 persistent, toxic compounds, including DDT. Under the pact, use of the pesticide is allowed only for controlling malaria.

Since then, nine nations—Ethiopia, South Africa, India, Mauritius, Myanmar, Yemen, Uganda, Mozambique and Swaziland—notified the treaty's secretariat that they are using DDT. Five others—Zimbabwe, North Korea, Eritrea, Gambia, Namibia and Zambia--also reportedly are using it, and six others, including China, have reserved the right to begin using it, according to a January Stockholm Convention report."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ddt-use-to-combat-malaria/ And although WHO recommends house spraying and not widespread spraying, that seems to do the trick according to the congressional testimony. I'm not an entomologist and do not play one on TV, but it seems to me that we should avoid rampant spraying to reduce the rapid proliferation of resistant mosquitoes. It also seems like a good idea to keep persistent organic pollutants -- pesticides -- out of the environment.

For two generations of genocide by American environmentalists, governments who insisted on using DDT would find that the World Bank would not give the loans, that American aid was cut off, etc. At least you didn't say patronizingly, like another RBTer, the wretched Peter Cook, that "we now allow them to spray DDT on their houses". But he has a better grip on how American diplomacy and aid works than you do.

Yes, I know, Rachel Carlson -- dead or alive -- controlled United States foreign policy through five Republican administrations. Those poor Republican puppets of the faceless "American environmentalists." Time for torches and pitchforks. "Damn you Environmentalists . . . Damn you!" [curtain falls, house erupts in applause, author Jute appears and is showered with roses].

> >at least where mosquitoes have not developed a resistance. US C02 standards are not preventing any third-world nation from developing industry or keeping them in "peasant poverty" (say that ten times fast). India, for example, is enjoying the benefits of vigorous industry without the constraints of repressive environmental laws. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/01/new-delhi-s-air-pollution-is-twice-as-bad-as-beijing-s.html God bless them, each and every asthmatic one -- living free and unfettered by the genocidal environmental laws of their white oppressors.
>
> In Paris the Indian foreign minister said plainly that CO2 control is a racist measure. I'm glad to see you're so tolerant towards Indians: "God bless them" -- though I'm not at all sure their god and yours are compatible.

Yup, and they apparently don't care that their people are dying of respiratory disease among other diseases. They are poster children for environmental ruination and its effect on human populations.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 13:47:40 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 5:52:08 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>I have a soft spot for steam cars: silent, instant torque, mechanically
>simple (no gearbox), no vibration. With today's electronics you could
>start it from your iPhone when its alarm wakes you, and have it ready
>by the time you want to leave for work.

I've watched Jay Leno's YouTube videos of his various steam cars
(White, Stanley, Doble, etc):
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jay+leno+steam+car>
and am impressed by those attributes you mention, but not very
impressed with the difficulty in accelerating quickly, difficulty
getting smooth idling, low efficiency, and no air conditioner. In the
last week, I've had at least one occasion to need a fast get-away in
my vehicle. Waiting 30 minutes would not be acceptable. Despite all
that, I think it can be made to work as the advantages outweigh the
aforementioned disadvantages. What I like best is that faster it
goes, the faster it goes. There's no peak in the HP vs RPM curve like
a diesel or gasoline engine. Without a governor, most steam cars will
tear itself apart.

>>Unibody construction came in
>> 1960 and wasn't all that radical.

>The American Budd company had a complete working, perfectly practical
>monocoque system by the late 1920s but American carmakers didn't want
>to know, though Chrysler made a small bet on unitary construction
>with the Airflow. Budd instead sold their system to Citroen, whose
>Traction Avant was one of the most successful cars of all time, and
>enjoyed a run of a whole generation. The Traction Avant was underslung
>because the bulky separate chassis was gone, and got an aerodynamic
>advantage as well, and was excitingly beautiful in its time, much
>like the DS which replaced it.

Unfortunately, the American version of unibody construction started
rather badly. My mother's 1960 Ford Falcon 200 cid was one of the
first. The body was held together by something like 20,000 spot
welds. 95% of these held the body together. The remaining 5% was
were responsible for the chronic creaks, squeaks, snaps, crackles,
pops and occasional bangs coming from various body panels. This went
on for many years and models until robots finally were able to produce
more reliable spot welds. At the time, I considered unibody a step
backwards. Other steps backwards might be the Mazda Wankel engine,
wood gas fuel, rice burners, methane (natural gas and sewer gas
burners, LPG (propane), CNG (compressed natural gas), hydrogen, etc.
Yes, they are probably radical, but not really an overall improvement
as these typically solve one or two problems at the expensive of
losing some or many benefits.

>> Gas turbines became practical in
>> trucks in about 1950.
>
>I would call turbines a radical motive power change.

Yep. Also 1963 Chrysler Turbine passenger car:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2A5ijU3Ivs> (24:29)

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 4:57:57 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 13:47:40 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute

> <> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 5:52:08 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> >I have a soft spot for steam cars: silent, instant torque, mechanically
> >simple (no gearbox), no vibration. With today's electronics you could
> >start it from your iPhone when its alarm wakes you, and have it ready
> >by the time you want to leave for work.
>
> I've watched Jay Leno's YouTube videos of his various steam cars
> (White, Stanley, Doble, etc):
> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jay+leno+steam+car>
> and am impressed by those attributes you mention, but not very
> impressed with the difficulty in accelerating quickly, difficulty
> getting smooth idling, low efficiency, and no air conditioner. In the
> last week, I've had at least one occasion to need a fast get-away in
> my vehicle. Waiting 30 minutes would not be acceptable. Despite all
> that, I think it can be made to work as the advantages outweigh the
> aforementioned disadvantages. What I like best is that faster it
> goes, the faster it goes. There's no peak in the HP vs RPM curve like
> a diesel or gasoline engine. Without a governor, most steam cars will
> tear itself apart.

I bet that with modern technology (electronics) one could design a steam car that would keep up steam 24 hours a day. But the electronics are the cheap bits. A consumer automobile steam engine that conforms to modern safety standards would be expensive to build: all that wire around it to contain shards from a runaway positive feedback state, for instance, is hand wrapped and tensioned (with a tool originally used for tensioning bicycle wheel spokes). According to one of my proteges, an engineer whose firm does high power consulting and development work, the smallest practical jet engine costs about the same as a container load of fully optioned and trimmed fit and drive Chevrolet V8 engines, FOB for export in both cases. I'd expect a licensable steam engine to run about the same as the small jet. She thinks it might be more, depending on where you want to homologate it, because the small jet engine has the benefit of decades of development and marginal costs coming down with ever-larger unit numbers. However, once you get into production line numbers, the jet is intrinsically, unavoidably expensive in it's machining and materials, while a steam engine, even if of great relative sophistication, is still by comparison to the jet a crude piece of agricultural equipment made of common and known internal combustion materials.

A governor on a steam engine is just a safety valve on the line somewhere, a concept well developed on modern turbochargers for internal combustion engines. But, in any event, the idea for a modern steam car I like best isn't one big dangerous boiler but a whole row of small, low profile flash boilers per cylinder, similar to the electrical type installed above taps in old-house restorations, the whole to fit under the floor of the car for almost all it's length. Then, if you make the crankshaft the axle, you have simplicity with security, and you can obtain instant acceleration when required by cutting in more flash boilers from their standby (not idle) state. I don't even pretend my idea will be economical to build or run in proto numbers, but if it were even 1% as common as the internal combustion engine it could no doubt be made semi-affordable. I was amazed at the low prices of the Tesla cars, for instance -- until I discovered they're heavily subsidized by the taxpayer.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/c12-0603-1964-chrysler-turbine-car/

55 built, 47 crushed.

> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Andre Jute
Note the bicycle tech relevant on-topic content

[Andre Jute]

Sorry, Jay. I wrote a reply and lost it when my computer crashed. Now I'm out of time. Gotta go cook pear jam. -- Andre Jute

[slto...@gmail.com]

Wouldn't anyone think that before writing all of this crap, Jay would actually look up DDT and discover that it isn't as much of a problem in the environment as ASPIRIN?

According to the CDC, "No effects have been reported in adults given small daily doses of DDT by capsule for 18 months (up to 35 milligrams [mg] every day)." (35 mg is NOT a small dose - it is 3 1/2 times the daily dose of Prozac)

Just to take a clear shot at this - there are problems with DDT. It can accumulate in the system and it has an extremely long half-life though with today's technology they could no doubt make a drug that would unhook DDT from the body fat where it accumulates.

It is by FAR the least dangerous of the truly effective insecticides.

"Some studies in humans linked DDT levels in the body with breast cancer, but other studies have not made this link. Other studies in humans have linked exposure to DDT/DDE [a DDT metabolite] with having lymphoma, leukemia, and pancreatic cancer. No definitive association with these cancers has been made."
Even more revealing is the lack of a dose-response: "Workers heavily exposed to DDT never had more cancer than workers not exposed to DDT."

To bad Jay wouldn't go off tramping through swamps and jungle searching for quinine.

[jbeattie]

Eat up Tom! And then read: Male fertility following occupational exposure to dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT); (2015) 77 EEVRNI C 42-47; Health risks and benefits of bis(4-chlorophenyl)-1,1,1-trichloroethane (DDT) Lancet Vol 366 No. 9467 2005; Factors influencing the ecological and human health risks of DDTs in soils and air at the isomeric and enantiomeric levels; (2018) 359 ESJNHM 316-324 (2018) 359 ESJNHM 316-324; DDTs in mothers' milk, placenta and hair, and health risk assessment for infants at two coastal and inland cities in China; (2014) 65 EEVRNI C 73-82; Disruption of dopamine transport by DDT and its metabolites; (2008) 29 ENEURO 4 682-690. LD 50 is high, cancer risk is low (although it is currently classified as "probably carcinogenic"); nonetheless, it has hormonal and other effects in humans, and it is demonstrably bad for children, born and in utero. But I'm sure you're familiar with all the published literature, so I won't summarize them for you.

Plus, a "problem in the environment" isn't limited to the fact that DDT has effects on humans and wildlife. You just don't throw pesticides around willy-nilly -- any pesticide. Pesticides kill beneficial insects and invertebrates. Over-use also leads to earlier resistance. https://sites.duke.edu/malaria/4-gene-environment-interactions/pesticide-resistence/ There are many reasons for wanting to limit the use of DDT of which I'm sure you are aware, being that you are such an autodidact -- but in case you missed the memo, the over-exuberant use of DDT has created swarms of resistant mosquitoes.

BTW, I do tromp around Safeway searching for tonic water. And for more family lore, my grandfather also went on Arctic and Anarctic expeditions. He has a mountain named after him in the Antarctic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Steere He was a big opponent of drilling on the Alaska West Slope (University of Alaska gave him an honorary Doctorate). Damned Environmentalists! Curse you!

-- Jay Beattie.

[slto...@gmail.com]

One of the latest papers in Science states that almost none of these experiments are replicable because the survey samples are far too small and the statistics are very poorly done. But continue posting your garbage because, after all, you're a member of AAAS like I am.

[jbeattie]

Tom, do you mean I'm not a member of AAAS? I could be a member of AAAS by pushing a button and paying $50. https://purchase.aaas.org/order/301/1?intcmp=AAAS-site_MembershipMenu&dmc=P8A3O3 I'd rather save the $50, although the t-shirt is kind of neat, and having full access to the old issues of Science would be neat, too.

And BTW, when you go to the AAAS site and type "DDT" in the search bar, it brings up (among many other things): "DDT may quadruple breast cancer risk" By Kelly ServickJun. 16, 2015 https://tinyurl.com/ydgmwjc9 And the study was in Oakland! Lucky you don't have breasts. Here's the synopsis:

"It’s been 42 years since the pesticide dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT) was banned in the United States for its harmful effects on wildlife. But scientists are still untangling its connection to human health. A new study published today in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism suggests that exposure to the compound in utero may increase a woman’s risk of developing breast cancer later in life. The study relies on a unique database of pregnancies in members of the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan in Oakland, California, between 1959 and 1967, when DDT was still used heavily on crops. Women whose mothers had elevated levels of DDT in their blood had a nearly fourfold increase in risk of developing breast cancer by age 52, compared with controls who were matched for a variety of factors, including maternal history of breast cancer. Previous evidence for a breast cancer link has been mixed—one study found increased risk in women exposed before age 14, whereas others found no association—but in a lab dish, DDT has been shown to activate the HER2 gene in human breast cells, which is expressed in some breast cancers. Understanding the risks of DDT is critical, the authors note, because the compound is still used to control mosquitoes and prevent the spread of malaria in Africa and Asia."

That site is awesome. It has articles going back to the '50s on DDT and covers the suit against the EPA when it announced its intent to ban DDT. I can only get pieces because I'M NOT A MEMBER! I do have access to medical literature through LEXIS, but I'll have to see if I can get Science.

Also read the articles I posted. They're articles from peer reviewed journals including Lancet. You would like the Lancet article because it notes the weak association between DDT and certain illnesses and the stronger association with others. Go to the local med school library, do a MedLine search and read up. Unless you do primary research, you're just stuck in an echo chamber with all the other lunatics.

-- Jay Beattie.

P.S. for Andre: It looks like the Indians are indeed living the good life, free of the environmental laws of the colonial oppressors. https://tinyurl.com/ycy75atr

[slto...@gmail.com]

I am not in the least surprised that you think that you join AAAS for the t-shirt.

Yesterday I went up to the post office. I was there a couple of minutes early so I was going to walk around. All of the local signs are in Spanish so I can practice reading. Only ONE store is in English - a Music Shop.

There was what looked like a homeless person and I had two fives so I thought I would pass them on. Unlike Oregon Democrats who call the cops. As I approached it was an old black lady crying unconsolably. She had just been evicted from her one room apartment so that the illegal land owner could rent that room out to an illegal family or two for more money. Everything she had in the world was in a shopping cart. Since she was on welfare she couldn't even begin to find another place. The rent on a trailer space cost more than most three room apartments. Without a permanent address she couldn't get welfare. So out on the street as the cold part of the year is arriving she will probably commit suicide soon. This is the Democrat way of fixing things by letting in Illegals and destroying ICE. Your kind of people doing your kind of thing.

She had no idea what she was going to do and neither did I in a state where you get more money as a healthy illegal alien than you do as a sick senior citizen American.

If there's one thing that the Democrats are ALWAYS good for it is destroying people's lives with empty idealism.

[jbeattie]

Hey, it's a cool t-shirt.

>
> Yesterday I went up to the post office. I was there a couple of minutes early so I was going to walk around. All of the local signs are in Spanish so I can practice reading. Only ONE store is in English - a Music Shop.
>
> There was what looked like a homeless person and I had two fives so I thought I would pass them on. Unlike Oregon Democrats who call the cops.

WTF are you talking about? It is clearly time for you meds. I thought we were talking about DDT. No?

As I approached it was an old black lady crying unconsolably. She had just been evicted from her one room apartment so that the illegal land owner could rent that room out to an illegal family or two for more money.

She was crying "inconsolably." Note that she didn't "just get evicted." It is a 30/60 day process for an eviction without cause in California. She is probably receiving housing choice vouchers (formerly Section 8) which makes it unlikely that she had an "illegal" landlord -- and it also makes it difficult to evict her. You should have asked her about her voucher situation and sent her to the evil liberal legal aid if she was forced out without sufficient cause or notice. Then point her to a shelter which are typically staffed with social workers. If you encounter these people frequently, then you should keep details and directions with you.

And Tom, are you against the free market? Don't you want to rent your property for the highest amount the market will bear? Hmmm, don't tell me you're for rent control. That's totally un-Trump, the great gamer of rent control on earth -- well, after Fred.

Everything she had in the world was in a shopping cart. Since she was on welfare she couldn't even begin to find another place. The rent on a trailer space cost more than most three room apartments. Without a permanent address she couldn't get welfare. So out on the street as the cold part of the year is arriving she will probably commit suicide soon. This is the Democrat way of fixing things by letting in Illegals and destroying ICE. Your kind of people doing your kind of thing.

Sure she can get welfare without a permanent address. Most shelters provide drop boxes, and in most states, checks can be picked up in the office. You need to read-up on welfare benefits.

> She had no idea what she was going to do and neither did I in a state where you get more money as a healthy illegal alien than you do as a sick senior citizen American.

You assume she is an imbecile or an infant -- the soft bigotry of low expectations. She probably knows exactly what to do -- including getting money from you.

>
> If there's one thing that the Democrats are ALWAYS good for it is destroying people's lives with empty idealism.

And Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, TANF, CHIP, SNAP, etc., etc. I thought you hated Democrats because they were giving money away. No? Now not enough money is being given away? Welfare programs are typically reviled by the conservatives and identified with Democrats, like a black mark.

I did legal aid when I was in law school and some pro bono over the last 30 years -- Section 8, general assistance, SNAP, etc. I learned that the mentally aware but economically disadvantaged can be quite sophisticated in terms of knowing their rights. The folks in the state welfare offices -- all those deep state dead-weights you hate -- are actually very helpful.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 10/22/2018 7:35 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 5:08:55 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

>> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 8:38:13 PM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
>>> On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>> What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
>>>> http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/
>>>
>>> Fake news.
>>

>> Nah, the techie insiders, the ones responsible for maintaining the database at the HADCRUT, have for years been saying the "scientist" have screwed up the data by making grossly erroneous "adjustments" to altogether the wrong data. This isn't new, it isn't fake, it has just not been published in all the gory detail Dr McClean catalogues. Nobody has trusted the HADCRUT, one of the four great strands of the foundations of the global warming hoax, since Climategate exposed their lying and bullying of dissenters.
>>
>
> Really, a "science presenter"? From her own site: "A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages)." https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joanne_Nova
>
> I suppose JoNova is better than Miss Cleo, maybe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZwLG7yJg1g
>
> When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2153PnMzSw Screw those idiots who do the science day in and day out -- and screw their super-computers while we're at it.

Agreed. Those scientists are all a bunch of pinkos. We need to get our
information from bloggers and conspiracy theorists.

[sms]

On 10/23/2018 7:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT), slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
>>> placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.
>>
>> Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg>
>> It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
>> told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.
>
> All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond, above Los Gatos, La Honda. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Shh. You're using facts and logic. Not acceptable.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Again, I am not surprised that this woman doesn't distress you in the least. You are all for the Democrat plan of open borders and abolishing ICE.

This is why the Democrat Party has destroyed itself. You are mentally deranged and should be in an institution to protect the entire world from your kind. Do you have icons of Pol Pot on your walls?

[slto...@gmail.com]

Maybe you missed Jay then saying that he didn't MEAN that ALL of the weather stations were in the mountains. But apparently you're ready to agree with him on that as well. Tell us - do you know which weather stations become part of the ground temperature data base? Or do you just shake your head up and down to agree with Jay because he's one of those smart lawyers?

[AMuzi]

>>>>>>>> Since then, nine nations—Ethiopia, South Africa, India, Mauritius, Myanmar, Yemen, Uganda, Mozambique and Swaziland—notified the treaty's secretariat that they are using DDT. Five others—Zimbabwe, North Korea, Eritrea, Gambia, Namibia and Zambia--also reportedly are using it, and six others, including China, have reserved the right to begin using it, according to a January Stockholm Convention report."

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ddt-use-to-combat-malaria/ And although WHO recommends house spraying and not widespread spraying, that seems to do the trick according to the congressional testimony. I'm not an entomologist and do not play one on TV, but it seems to me that we should avoid rampant spraying to reduce the rapid proliferation of resistant mosquitoes. It also seems like a good idea to keep persistent organic pollutants -- pesticides -- out of the environment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For two generations of genocide by American environmentalists, governments who insisted on using DDT would find that the World Bank would not give the loans, that American aid was cut off, etc. At least you didn't say patronizingly, like another RBTer, the wretched Peter Cook, that "we now allow them to spray DDT on their houses". But he has a better grip on how American diplomacy and aid works than you do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I know, Rachel Carlson -- dead or alive -- controlled United States foreign policy through five Republican administrations. Those poor Republican puppets of the faceless "American environmentalists." Time for torches and pitchforks. "Damn you Environmentalists . . . Damn you!" [curtain falls, house erupts in applause, author Jute appears and is showered with roses].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> at least where mosquitoes have not developed a resistance. US C02 standards are not preventing any third-world nation from developing industry or keeping them in "peasant poverty" (say that ten times fast). India, for example, is enjoying the benefits of vigorous industry without the constraints of repressive environmental laws. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/01/new-delhi-s-air-pollution-is-twice-as-bad-as-beijing-s.html God bless them, each and every asthmatic one -- living free and unfettered by the genocidal environmental laws of their white oppressors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Paris the Indian foreign minister said plainly that CO2 control is a racist measure. I'm glad to see you're so tolerant towards Indians: "God bless them" -- though I'm not at all sure their god and yours are compatible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup, and they apparently don't care that their people are dying of respiratory disease among other diseases. They are poster children for environmental ruination and its effect on human populations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wouldn't anyone think that before writing all of this crap, Jay would actually look up DDT and discover that it isn't as much of a problem in the environment as ASPIRIN?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the CDC, "No effects have been reported in adults given small daily doses of DDT by capsule for 18 months (up to 35 milligrams [mg] every day)." (35 mg is NOT a small dose - it is 3 1/2 times the daily dose of Prozac)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to take a clear shot at this - there are problems with DDT. It can accumulate in the system and it has an extremely long half-life though with today's technology they could no doubt make a drug that would unhook DDT from the body fat where it accumulates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is by FAR the least dangerous of the truly effective insecticides.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Some studies in humans linked DDT levels in the body with breast cancer, but other studies have not made this link. Other studies in humans have linked exposure to DDT/DDE [a DDT metabolite] with having lymphoma, leukemia, and pancreatic cancer. No definitive association with these cancers has been made."
>>>>>>> Even more revealing is the lack of a dose-response: "Workers heavily exposed to DDT never had more cancer than workers not exposed to DDT."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To bad Jay wouldn't go off tramping through swamps and jungle searching for quinine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eat up Tom! And then read: Male fertility following occupational exposure to dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT); (2015) 77 EEVRNI C 42-47; Health risks and benefits of bis(4-chlorophenyl)-1,1,1-trichloroethane (DDT) Lancet Vol 366 No. 9467 2005; Factors influencing the ecological and human health risks of DDTs in soils and air at the isomeric and enantiomeric levels; (2018) 359 ESJNHM 316-324 (2018) 359 ESJNHM 316-324; DDTs in mothers' milk, placenta and hair, and health risk assessment for infants at two coastal and inland cities in China; (2014) 65 EEVRNI C 73-82; Disruption of dopamine transport by DDT and its metabolites; (2008) 29 ENEURO 4 682-690. LD 50 is high, cancer risk is low (although it is currently classified as "probably carcinogenic"); nonetheless, it has hormonal and other effects in humans, and it is demonstrably bad for children, born and in utero. But I'm sure you're familiar with all the published literature, so I won't summarize them for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus, a "problem in the environment" isn't limited to the fact that DDT has effects on humans and wildlife. You just don't throw pesticides around willy-nilly -- any pesticide. Pesticides kill beneficial insects and invertebrates. Over-use also leads to earlier resistance. https://sites.duke.edu/malaria/4-gene-environment-interactions/pesticide-resistence/ There are many reasons for wanting to limit the use of DDT of which I'm sure you are aware, being that you are such an autodidact -- but in case you missed the memo, the over-exuberant use of DDT has created swarms of resistant mosquitoes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, I do tromp around Safeway searching for tonic water. And for more family lore, my grandfather also went on Arctic and Anarctic expeditions. He has a mountain named after him in the Antarctic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Steere He was a big opponent of drilling on the Alaska West Slope (University of Alaska gave him an honorary Doctorate). Damned Environmentalists! Curse you!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the latest papers in Science states that almost none of these experiments are replicable because the survey samples are far too small and the statistics are very poorly done. But continue posting your garbage because, after all, you're a member of AAAS like I am.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, do you mean I'm not a member of AAAS? I could be a member of AAAS by pushing a button and paying $50. https://purchase.aaas.org/order/301/1?intcmp=AAAS-site_MembershipMenu&dmc=P8A3O3 I'd rather save the $50, although the t-shirt is kind of neat, and having full access to the old issues of Science would be neat, too.
>>>>
>>>> And BTW, when you go to the AAAS site and type "DDT" in the search bar, it brings up (among many other things): "DDT may quadruple breast cancer risk" By Kelly ServickJun. 16, 2015 https://tinyurl.com/ydgmwjc9 And the study was in Oakland! Lucky you don't have breasts. Here's the synopsis:
>>>>

>>>> "It’s been 42 years since the pesticide dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT) was banned in the United States for its harmful effects on wildlife. But scientists are still untangling its connection to human health. A new study published today in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism suggests that exposure to the compound in utero may increase a woman’s risk of developing breast cancer later in life. The study relies on a unique database of pregnancies in members of the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan in Oakland, California, between 1959 and 1967, when DDT was still used heavily on crops. Women whose mothers had elevated levels of DDT in their blood had a nearly fourfold increase in risk of developing breast cancer by age 52, compared with controls who were matched for a variety of factors, including maternal history of breast cancer. Previous evidence for a breast cancer link has been mixed—one study found increased risk in women exposed before age 14, whereas
others found no association—but in a lab dish, DDT has been shown to activate the HER2 gene in human breast cells, which is expressed in some breast cancers. Understanding the risks of DDT is critical, the authors note, because the compound is still used to control mosquitoes and prevent the spread of malaria in Africa and Asia."

>>>>
>>>> That site is awesome. It has articles going back to the '50s on DDT and covers the suit against the EPA when it announced its intent to ban DDT. I can only get pieces because I'M NOT A MEMBER! I do have access to medical literature through LEXIS, but I'll have to see if I can get Science.
>>>>
>>>> Also read the articles I posted. They're articles from peer reviewed journals including Lancet. You would like the Lancet article because it notes the weak association between DDT and certain illnesses and the stronger association with others. Go to the local med school library, do a MedLine search and read up. Unless you do primary research, you're just stuck in an echo chamber with all the other lunatics.
>>>>
>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>
>>>> P.S. for Andre: It looks like the Indians are indeed living the good life, free of the environmental laws of the colonial oppressors. https://tinyurl.com/ycy75atr
>>>
>>> I am not in the least surprised that you think that you join AAAS for the t-shirt.
>>
>> Hey, it's a cool t-shirt.
>>
>>>
>>> Yesterday I went up to the post office. I was there a couple of minutes early so I was going to walk around. All of the local signs are in Spanish so I can practice reading. Only ONE store is in English - a Music Shop.
>>>
>>> There was what looked like a homeless person and I had two fives so I thought I would pass them on. Unlike Oregon Democrats who call the cops.
>>
>> WTF are you talking about? It is clearly time for you meds. I thought we were talking about DDT. No?
>>
>> As I approached it was an old black lady crying unconsolably. She had just been evicted from her one room apartment so that the illegal land owner could rent that room out to an illegal family or two for more money.
>>
>> She was crying "inconsolably." Note that she didn't "just get evicted." It is a 30/60 day process for an eviction without cause in California. She is probably receiving housing choice vouchers (formerly Section 8) which makes it unlikely that she had an "illegal" landlord -- and it also makes it difficult to evict her. You should have asked her about her voucher situation and sent her to the evil liberal legal aid if she was forced out without sufficient cause or notice. Then point her to a shelter which are typically staffed with social workers. If you encounter these people frequently, then you should keep details and directions with you.
>>
>> And Tom, are you against the free market? Don't you want to rent your property for the highest amount the market will bear? Hmmm, don't tell me you're for rent control. That's totally un-Trump, the great gamer of rent control on earth -- well, after Fred.
>>
>> Everything she had in the world was in a shopping cart. Since she was on welfare she couldn't even begin to find another place. The rent on a trailer space cost more than most three room apartments. Without a permanent address she couldn't get welfare. So out on the street as the cold part of the year is arriving she will probably commit suicide soon. This is the Democrat way of fixing things by letting in Illegals and destroying ICE. Your kind of people doing your kind of thing.
>>
>> Sure she can get welfare without a permanent address. Most shelters provide drop boxes, and in most states, checks can be picked up in the office. You need to read-up on welfare benefits.
>>
>>> She had no idea what she was going to do and neither did I in a state where you get more money as a healthy illegal alien than you do as a sick senior citizen American.
>>
>> You assume she is an imbecile or an infant -- the soft bigotry of low expectations. She probably knows exactly what to do -- including getting money from you.
>>>
>>> If there's one thing that the Democrats are ALWAYS good for it is destroying people's lives with empty idealism.
>>
>> And Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, TANF, CHIP, SNAP, etc., etc. I thought you hated Democrats because they were giving money away. No? Now not enough money is being given away? Welfare programs are typically reviled by the conservatives and identified with Democrats, like a black mark.
>>
>> I did legal aid when I was in law school and some pro bono over the last 30 years -- Section 8, general assistance, SNAP, etc. I learned that the mentally aware but economically disadvantaged can be quite sophisticated in terms of knowing their rights. The folks in the state welfare offices -- all those deep state dead-weights you hate -- are actually very helpful.
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Again, I am not surprised that this woman doesn't distress you in the least. You are all for the Democrat plan of open borders and abolishing ICE.
>
> This is why the Democrat Party has destroyed itself. You are mentally deranged and should be in an institution to protect the entire world from your kind. Do you have icons of Pol Pot on your walls?
>

I have no idea bout that or how much of her story is true.
Then again:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b0/7c/1c/b07c1c2910358fecf71c35400b9065b3.jpg

[jbeattie]

Wow. The terrible liberals who are typically vilified for creating the social welfare system are now Pol Pot?

Have you ever helped anyone through the welfare system? Done a QDROs or gotten SSI, Medicaid (Medical) get general assistance, Section 8? Not just giving someone a 5-spot or slopping soup in a kitchen and claiming sainthood?

There are ways of truly helping the physically disabled and/or economically disadvantaged. https://www.oregon.gov/DHS/SENIORS-DISABILITIES/SPPD/Pages/General-Assistance-Program.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ASSISTANCE/Pages/index.aspx I'm sure California has even more services.

If you want to be a crusader, do volunteer work for your local social services, legal aid etc. I did pro bono at shelters which, amazingly, often involved mundane things like child support, dom rel and the usual run of tort claims and landlord tenant issues, veterans benefits. Many of the people I worked with were already receiving welfare benefits, although some were not. You help them with applications and get them lined up. The people who you really worry about are those who don't qualify for any programs. Simply being poor may or may not get you anything more than food stamps. The soup kitchen (or for me, food bank) work is great too, but its short term. You're retired. This can be your thing -- working shoulder to shoulder with all the liberals, trying to help people in your community. Maybe you can convert a few while you're at it.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

I agree with Jay. We both must be very smart because we don't have to
make up incredibly ridiculous stories to justify our positions on
scientific issues.

[sms]

On 10/28/2018 8:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Wow. The terrible liberals who are typically vilified for creating the social welfare system are now Pol Pot?
>
> Have you ever helped anyone through the welfare system? Done a QDROs or gotten SSI, Medicaid (Medical) get general assistance, Section 8? Not just giving someone a 5-spot or slopping soup in a kitchen and claiming sainthood?
>
> There are ways of truly helping the physically disabled and/or economically disadvantaged. https://www.oregon.gov/DHS/SENIORS-DISABILITIES/SPPD/Pages/General-Assistance-Program.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ASSISTANCE/Pages/index.aspx I'm sure California has even more services.
>
> If you want to be a crusader, do volunteer work for your local social services, legal aid etc. I did pro bono at shelters which, amazingly, often involved mundane things like child support, dom rel and the usual run of tort claims and landlord tenant issues, veterans benefits. Many of the people I worked with were already receiving welfare benefits, although some were not. You help them with applications and get them lined up. The people who you really worry about are those who don't qualify for any programs. Simply being poor may or may not get you anything more than food stamps. The soup kitchen (or for me, food bank) work is great too, but its short term. You're retired. This can be your thing -- working shoulder to shoulder with all the liberals, trying to help people in your community. Maybe you can convert a few while you're at it.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Using logic to argue with Trump supporters is a zero-sum game. Accept
that you are Pol Pot and move on.

[jbeattie]

I can't be Pol Pot. I went to college and wear glasses. I'd have to kill myself.

-- Jay Beattie

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:58:16 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
<snip>

> > This is why the Democrat Party has destroyed itself. You are mentally deranged and should be in an institution to protect the entire world from your kind. Do you have icons of Pol Pot on your walls?
> >
>
> I have no idea bout that or how much of her story is true.
> Then again:
> https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b0/7c/1c/b07c1c2910358fecf71c35400b9065b3.jpg

These kinds of memes are just grapeshot at the "other side" (whatever side that may be) and end any rational discussion or understanding of the role of social welfare systems in either creating or alleviating poverty. What would be productive is figuring out what works, but that is no longer part of national dialog. It's all about pointing fingers.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

That's a direct quote from Elbert Guillory (who writes
compellingly).

[jbeattie]

Yes, and he's a bomb thrower. Being a conservative black bomb thrower gets you center stage, much like my former English professor, Shelby Steele -- who, by the way, was an underwhelming English professor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_Steele Throwing bombs on both sides is a cottage industry -- and a lucrative one.

I think that as a society, we agree that some social safety net is appropriate. Figuring out which programs work should be our first priority. There are programs that produce ROI (getting people back to work, etc.), and some programs are simply charity because, as a society, we're unwilling to watch people die in the streets. There is undoubtedly a lot of chaff in between. I'm fine with doing the science to determine what does or doesn't work. I'm absolutely sick and tired of all the bomb throwing -- and the enraged loose screws going on shooting sprees.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

+1


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

+100

[Andre Jute]

Pol Pot went to college. He won a prestigious scholarship to study engineering in France.

AJ
Just the fax, mam

[slto...@gmail.com]

Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.

What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.

[slto...@gmail.com]

I lived through the time of the communist expansion and its collapse. It is this second occurring in Venezuela which used to be the second richest country in the Americas. But communists are really not all that bright - if they look at history and they see socialism's absolute failure they can still blame it on the working capitalism in the rest of the world.

[sms]

There's a medical name for it now, TDS, Trump Derangement Syndrome.

[sms]

I am very impressed with Marc Benioff of Salesforce for admitting some
simple truths, and then putting his money where his mouth is, despite
enraging some of his corporate executive peers.

<https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/marc-benioff-salesforce-founder-jack-dorsey-twitter-founder-san-francisco-homelessness-proposition-c.html>

The issue now facing the U.S. is that with the corporate tax cut, large
corporations have reaped billions of dollars in additional profits while
that same money is no longer in the federal treasury to pay for
necessary programs, including programs that the right-wing hates,
including food stamps.

Measure C in San Francisco would not be much of a burden given the tax
savings these same companies have enjoyed. If a company has no profits,
and there are a lot of these in San Francisco (Uber, etc,) then they
would not be burdened.

In San Francisco, the homelessness issue has been greatly exacerbated by
all the tech companies moving in and causing gentrification of
neighborhoods and much higher rents. Many of the homeless people
actually do have jobs in San Francisco, but a minimum wage job is not
sufficient for housing in San Francisco, and moving far out of the city
is not possible due to the expense and time of commuting from an area
with lower cost housing. Vans and old RVs have become the new Below
Market Rate housing
<https://abc7news.com/realestate/san-francisco-portola-residents-fed-up-with-rvs-on-street/4465713/>.

Mountain View has a measure on the ballot to change their business tax
model and to levy a per employee tax. This would affect Google, but the
total amount is so minimal that it would be just a rounding error on
their books and Google is not opposing the ballot measure.

Might a company decide to leave if their business taxes increase, or if
their is tax on corporate profits? They might, but it's unlikely if the
tax is not burdensome. If they leave for less costly locations, then
that's their decision.

Maximizing the number of jobs is not the only metric by which a city
should be judged. We've created a huge mess in the Bay Area, with too
many jobs but not nearly enough roads, transit, or housing, especially
housing for service workers. The City of San Francisco has added to the
housing mess with confiscatory rent control which removes large amounts
of older, less costly housing, from the market and converts it to more
expensive Tenants in Common ownership housing (rent control is a scam as
it ends up hurting the poor the most).

In Cupertino we have looked at a similar change to the business tax
structure from per square foot of space to per employee. As tech
companies pack more and more people in their buildings (average square
feet per worker has plunged as offices, and later cubicles, have been
eliminated), the per square foot model is less valid and many cities
have moved to a per employee model. We did not put it on the ballot for
2018, it was too rushed, preferring to see if we can work with our
largest employer first, but it may come back, and it would have to go to
voters.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.
>
> What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.
>

Tom, you sound totally unhinged.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[slto...@gmail.com]

And after you watching Jay post his communist propaganda you have agreed with him on every front. He is for helping everyone else as long as he using the money of someone else.

[John B. Slocomb]

Ah but Venezuela is a democratic country, not a communist country, if
anything it might be called a fascist country. And the economic crash
is largely a factor of depending almost solely on a single source of
income - oil - while at the same time increasing welfare program and
house building for the poor. .

This of course made the government popular and ensured that voters
would support the re-election of government officials - which it did.

But unfortunately with a single source of income when oil prices sank
so did the nation's income and instead of restricting the freebies the
government simply printed more and more money. As there was plenty of
currency in the system while at the same time less and less goods for
sale the price of goods skyrocketed, exactly the same as Germany after
WW I when the cost of a loaf of bread became 200,000,000,000 marks, as
it did in 1923.

What is it? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"?
--
Cheers

John B.

[AMuzi]

One might define words randomly but 'democracy' would be a
stretch:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article141655519.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/31/venezuelas-maduro-decried-as-dictator-after-congress-annulled.html

With a parallel brutal Cuban security system in place,
nobody much is going to change Venzuela either.

and 'oil prices' may fall short of a full explanation:
https://i1.wp.com/sc.cnbcfm.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/files/2013/11/22/Venezuela-total-oil-production.png

more recently even worse:
https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2017/03/02/Photos/NS/MW-FH175_venezo_20170302130501_NS.png?uuid=c17904e8-ff72-11e6-9a55-001cc448aede

As Margaret Thatcher taught, they seem to have 'run out of
other people's money'. Next chapter goes like this:

https://www.latinfinance.com/magazine/2018/january-february-2018/bondholders-brace-for-venezuelan-default

[Frank Krygowski]

Sounded to me like he's done a pretty fair amount of helping on his own,
using his own time and money.

But that wasn't what I was addressing. I was just saying you sound
totally unhinged.

I'm just hoping you don't appear in the headlines, with links to your
Usenet posts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Boy, this is an amusing thread. I'm waiting for someone to shoot someone just because he has another opinion.

Lou, here someone is allowed to be a socialist or even a communist or a fascist.

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, this is the "land of the free." To some, that translates as "No
socialism allowed."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[slto...@gmail.com]

As is usual from you, Fascism was "invented" by Gentili and is a form of socialism but apparently are unaware that is was also an underpinning of the German National Socialists Party - NAZI.

Venezuela was rich from its farm production and everyone was fed. After the socialists were voted in AS MOST SOCIALIST GOVERNMENTS ARE BY PROMISING TO GIVE EVERYONE THE MONEY OF SOMEONE ELSE all of the farm workers moved into the cities to live the good life on the buck of others. Farm produce fell to near zero and Venezuela became a net importer of food almost overnight. Oil prices fell because of massive discoveries elsewhere driving the prices down and the country went to hell.

[slto...@gmail.com]

It is far more likely that you'll appear in the headlines for driving a truck through a pro-American rally. Or maybe you can cheer on Jay telling me what Californian welfare laws are. I have been told by many people on welfare that you have to have a permanent address to draw welfare. But he doesn't give a damn what happened to that woman - he wants to make some socialist points.

[slto...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 8:29:03 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Boy, this is an amusing thread. I'm waiting for someone to shoot someone just because he has another opinion.
>
> Lou, here someone is allowed to be a socialist or even a communist or a fascist.

Yes lou, but they are also called out for it. The high population areas of the entire West Coast totally control the three state's government and have been screwing over the rest of these states for decades. Imagine cutting off water to the farmers to save the Delta Smelt! California has ALWAYS had droughts and many far far worse than two years ago and the poor poor smelt always managed to survive. But the Environmentalists have control of a large portion of the state's government and use fear tactics to use the population centers to order the government about.

[slto...@gmail.com]

To those of use that actually study history we know that socialism ALWAYS devolves to an oligarchy or a dictatorship. That must be your idea of "The land of the free".

[jbeattie]

You have been given wrong information:

https://homelesslaw.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/do-you-need-an-address-to-get-access-to-government-services-such-as-welfare-food-stamps-medicaid-and-social-security-disability/
http://www.cdss.ca.gov/getinfo/faq/faqsprogram.html https://www.sccgov.org/ssa/afdc/afchap36.pdf Note:
http://endhomelessness.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2016-09-14-TANF-CalWorks.pdf

"Can a homeless person receive food stamps?

Yes. A person must reside in the county in which an application is filed. Residence in a permanent dwelling or a fixed mailing address is not required."

A permanent residence is not required to receive welfare benefits. There are county or state residency requirements, but those can be satisfied by the homeless.

In Oakland, $5 will get you a two-shot latte. What is more important to a person in real need -- $5 or help in getting permanent housing, financial assistance, healthcare, etc., etc? You should become a community ambassador. https://www.alamedasocialservices.org/public/services/community/community_ambassadors_program.cfm

I know nothing about the lady you encountered, but I don't give money to the homeless on the street for three reasons (1) I'd go broke because there is a homeless person every ten feet downtown, and (2) it promotes behavior I dislike -- pan-handling, and (3) I have no control over how the money is spent, e.g. whether it goes to housing or drugs. I give my time and money to social service organizations and give professional help to people in the social services system.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/30/2018 1:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 9:27:09 AM UTC-7, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 5:43:27 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/29/2018 7:02 PM, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:09:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, you sound totally unhinged.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> And after you watching Jay post his communist propaganda you have agreed with him on every front. He is for helping everyone else as long as he using the money of someone else.
>>>
>>> Sounded to me like he's done a pretty fair amount of helping on his own,
>>> using his own time and money.
>>>
>>> But that wasn't what I was addressing. I was just saying you sound
>>> totally unhinged.
>>>
>>> I'm just hoping you don't appear in the headlines, with links to your
>>> Usenet posts.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> It is far more likely that you'll appear in the headlines for driving a truck through a pro-American rally. Or maybe you can cheer on Jay telling me what Californian welfare laws are. I have been told by many people on welfare that you have to have a permanent address to draw welfare. But he doesn't give a damn what happened to that woman - he wants to make some socialist points.
>
>
> You have been given wrong information:

... or have imagined it. In Tom's case, I now suspect the latter.

> I know nothing about the lady you encountered, but I don't give money to the homeless on the street for three reasons (1) I'd go broke because there is a homeless person every ten feet downtown, and (2) it promotes behavior I dislike -- pan-handling, and (3) I have no control over how the money is spent, e.g. whether it goes to housing or drugs. I give my time and money to social service organizations and give professional help to people in the social services system.

I agree, with one exception: I strongly approve of good buskers, or
street musicians - anything but rap or hard rock. If someone is making
halfway decent music, I'll give them a buck or two. If they're really
good, I'll give more.

A tale about panhandlers:

One day long ago I had just ridden my bike to work, and was leaning it
against a wall while I unclipped my eyeglass mirror and wiped my brow. A
guy walked up to me and asked for some money. "Hey man, I had nothing to
eat eaten since breakfast yesterday. I'm really hungry! I just want to
go buy something to eat. Can you just give me a little money for food?"

I reached into my handlebar bag and said "I can give you this apple.
Would you like it?"

He said "@#%* you, you #&^*@^$!" and stomped off.

I guess he wasn't so hungry after all.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/30/2018 12:32 PM, slto...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 8:29:03 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Boy, this is an amusing thread. I'm waiting for someone to shoot someone just because he has another opinion.
>>
>> Lou, here someone is allowed to be a socialist or even a communist or a fascist.
>
> Yes lou, but they are also called out for it.

I haven't heard of European people being "called out" for being
socialists. The ones I've talked to in Europe seem very happy with their
system (which may be more semi-socialist, I don't know). They like
getting good medical care, education and child care, lots of vacation
time, lots of public transportation, etc.

The ones I've talked to were envious of one thing in America. They said
"You have so much room!" And that's true. Whether houses or yards or
cities, they seem to pack things into much tighter spaces. I suppose
that has advantages as well as disadvantages.

Not counting the communist era (when I helped a guy get political
asylum) I recall only one European guy who wanted to move here. He was
Irish, and this was before the Celtic Tiger phase.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Please educate me. I don't see the "always" part happening in Europe. Is
a Swedish dictator on the horizon?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[slto...@gmail.com]

You have surprised no one that you don't give money to homeless. As a Democrat you prefer to give the money of other people. When I see people in need I do what I am personally capable of doing. I don't need to pay 15 layers of bureaucracy to shield me from the horrors.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Sweden is not a socialism. It is what they like to call a Democratic Socialism and what we here call a Welfare State.

[jbeattie]

Remember the thing about giving a person a fish, etc., etc. BTW, I would be happy to compare my lifetime charitable giving -- including the dollar value of my pro bono work for the homeless and economically insecure -- to your lifetime charitable giving. We can also talk about the federal, state and property taxes I pay, including may self-employment tax which funds your social security payments. Then we can talk about the local business, transit and income taxes I pay. Then we can talk about the >40 people my partnership employs and who receive complete medical, retirement and LTD benefits -- and for whom we pay FICA, again funding your social security payments. The money "others" are giving away for social services came from (drum roll please) me and the other godforsaken Oregon Democrats who pay boat loads of taxes.

Look at your social security check and say "thank you Democrats. Thank you for creating and preserving my Social Security benefits. Thank you for my Medicare Advantage Plan. Thank you for educating my children. Thank you for the GI Bill." Amen. I will do the same for the Republican-passed benefit programs that I receive. Kumbaya!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Here's a Venn diagram of a subset:
http://www.amsi.org.au/teacher_modules/H1/H1g4.png

Democratic Socialism would seem to be a subset of the general set
Socialism.

But no matter what you call their system, there don't seem to be any
Swedish dictators ready to take over. And the Swedes seem pretty happy
with their economic situation. So do the Danes. And the Dutch. And ...
Well, you get the idea.

Those folks aren't forming caravans to escape their prosperity and pick
our grapes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B. Slocomb]

Well, I would have to say that the U.S. with it's aid for unwed
mothers, unemployment payments, and all the other "benefits", is well
on the way toward socialism. In fact a good friend, who grew up in a
communist Hungary, once commented that in the U.S. one could get paid
for not working while in Hungary everyone had to work.
--
Cheers

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

>As is usual from you, Fascism was "invented" by Gentilli and is a form of socialism but apparently are unaware that is was also an underpinning of the German National Socialists Party - NAZI.

The term "Fascism" was first used in 1915 by members of Mussolini's
movement, the Fasci of Revolutionary Action. And yes, Italian Fascism
did influence Adolph's political theories.

>Venezuela was rich from its farm production and everyone was fed. After the socialists were voted in AS MOST SOCIALIST GOVERNMENTS ARE BY PROMISING TO GIVE EVERYONE THE MONEY OF SOMEONE ELSE all of the farm workers moved into the cities to live the good life on the buck of others. Farm produce fell to near zero and Venezuela became a net importer of food almost overnight. Oil prices fell because of massive discoveries elsewhere driving the prices down and the country went to hell.

Prior to the 1950s and the initiation of large-scale oil exports,
agriculture, fishing, and forestry were central to the Venezuelan
economy, producing more than half the gross domestic product (GDP).

However, In 1937, 88.8% of all arable land was owned by 4.8 per cent
of the farming population while 57.7% of the farmers owned
about 0.7% of the total extent of farm land.

In 1998, it was found that 60 per cent of farm land
was owned by less than one per cent of the population. 6 The five per
cent of landowners who controlled the largest land holdings controlled
more than 75 per cent of all landholdings in the countryside while the
75 per cent of land owners who controlled the smallest land holdings
covered about 5 per cent of all farm land.

So your imagined utopia of happy farmers is just a tiny bit erroneous.
The facts are that they were either share-croppers or subsistence
farmers and the money from exports went largely into the pockets of a
tiny percentage of the population..

But you are correct that just as in the U.S. when jobs became
available many left the land to take jobs in industry and because of
the oil wealth, Venezuelan workers "enjoyed the highest wages in Latin
America".

Then came the crash in oil prices in the 1980's and GDP fell through
the floor.
--
Cheers

John B.

[news18]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:55:35 -0700, sltom992 wrote:


> You have surprised no one that you don't give money to homeless. As a
> Democrat you prefer to give the money of other people. When I see people
> in need I do what I am personally capable of doing. I don't need to pay
> 15 layers of bureaucracy to shield me from the horrors.

Lol, you paid a street performer for a "blow job". They've all got one.
You would have been better to donate your dollars to one of the many
services that help really them.
Over here, the main street'panhandlers" pull in more money from suckers
like you than even government sustinance. It is an education to stand
behind them in a service line when they cash in their collected coins for
notes.

[slto...@gmail.com]

There goes that continuous falsehood again. That my paying into the social security funds is not why I'm entitled to SS. Only because people like YOU pay into it pay my way.