Why are centerpull road brakes obsolete?
Larry Leveen
What (if anything) makes centerpull road brakes undesirable and/or obsolete?
--
Larry Leveen
Velorution! The Bicycle "Freeware" Infopage
http://www.olywa.net/leveen/homepage.html
Myra Van Inwegen
> What (if anything) makes centerpull road brakes undesirable and/or
> obsolete?
Dual pivot brakes. They give you much better stopping power. Mine are
cheap ones made by Tektro and are still better than any centerpull or
plain side pull brakes I've tried.
--
-Myra VanInwegen
Myra.Va...@cl.cam.ac.uk http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/mvi20/
Mark McMaster
Larry Leveen wrote:
>
> What (if anything) makes centerpull road brakes undesirable and/or obsolete?
Compared to centerpull brakes, sidepull brakes have shorter arms which
flex less. The pivots on centerpull brakes are to the side of the rim,
so the arc that the brake pads travel on can sweep upward and into the
tire as the pads wear; whereas the pivot on sidepulls is directly over
the rim, so the pads move almost in a straight line into the rim. The
single central pivot of sidepull brakes also makes it easier for the
pads to follow a bent or off-center rim. Brake cable routing is easier
on sidepull brakes because you don't need a rigid cable stop attached to
the frame or fork. Oh yeah, centerpull brakes usually weigh more, too.
Unless you are restoring a vintage bicycle, I would not recommend
centerpull brakes.
Mark McMaster
MMc...@ix.netcom.com
John Many Jars
In article <35113C...@ix.netcom.com>,
Mark McMaster <MMc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Compared to centerpull brakes, sidepull brakes have shorter arms which
>flex less.
>The pivots on centerpull brakes are to the side of the rim, so the arc that
>the brake pads travel on can sweep upward and into the tire as the pads wear
>Oh yeah, centerpull brakes usually weigh more, too.
hey, don't all these disadvantages also apply to the latest innovation
in road brakes: dual pivots?
your neighborhood retrogrouch,
jmj
--
| Your skin smells lovely like sandalwood.
han...@clark.net | Your hair falls soft like animals,
| and nothing else matters to me.
Rob D'Entremont
Complexity. They have more parts, are heavier, and are more difficult
to install and adjust because of the arch wire and that triangular
cable hanger thingy.
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:49:53 -0800, lev...@olywa.net (Larry Leveen)
Propeloton
They aren't-just made no longer-my Deltas are alive and well-not trying to
start another 'war' jobst-
Peter
PTGEMG
My 19 year old Raleigh still has its original Weinmann centerpulls and still
stops my 240 lb of bike and rider. This even though I was blissfully ignorant
of Scott-Mathauser brake pads which go on for this year.
Their biggest drawback is weight and they certainly don't scream racebike when
you look at them (their biggest sin?)
PeteinPA
Rob D'Entremont
I have a vintage, excellent condition set of Shimano DURA ACE center
pulls. The levers are even the "safety" variety. Not sure what to do
with this piece of history and I'm open to suggestions.
Rob
Jobst Brandt
Larry Leveen writes:
> What (if anything) makes centerpull road brakes undesirable and/or
> obsolete?
They have severe cosine error (the pads sweep up into the tire with
wear), they have a third member, the bridge, that adds a degree of
flexibility above that found in the caliper arms, they use a straddle
cable that changes the mechanical advantage as pads wear, they require
an anchor for the brake cable that interferes with the head bearing or
seat bolt, their mechanical advantage is approximately the same as the
side pull brakes of the day (1:1), and they have no convenient quick
release.
The heyday of the centerpull was about 1960, especially in France, and
was a major engineering blunder that was sold on the basis that it had
a higher mechanical advantage, which it couldn't have, given the hand
levers and the constraints of human hands. Of course it didn't have a
different ratio, but it looks as though it does. The canterpull
vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo introduced the
first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Rick Denney
On 19 Mar 1998 19:29:28 GMT, jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
>The canterpull
>vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo introduced the
>first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
>
I thought Campagnolo introduced their side-pull brake in the very late
60's. Maybe 1969? I recall full campy bikes of the day having Weineman
or Mafac centerpulls. Did it just take that long for the sidepull
brakes to be accepted?
Rick Denney
Take what you want and leave the rest.
Chuck Schmidt
Jobst Brandt wrote:
Snip snip
> The canterpull
> vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo introduced the
> first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
>
ATTENTION! ATTENTION! JOBST MISINFORMATION ALERT!
The Campagnolo Record brakeset was introduced in 1967, not
the "early 1960's" as stated above!
We now return you to our regularly scheduled program.
Chuck Schmidt of Velo-Retro
PS Jobst, I know this was just a momentary lapse...
Tom Ace
> >vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo introduced the
> >first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
> >
>
> 60's. Maybe 1969? I recall full campy bikes of the day having Weineman
> or Mafac centerpulls. Did it just take that long for the sidepull
> brakes to be accepted?
Weren't some racers using Universal Super 68 sidepulls
before Campy Record brakes were available? They had
a quick release and were lightweight. I thought the
main advantages the Record brakes offered were stiffer
caliper arms and a better barrel adjustment mechanism.
Tom Ace
cr...@best.com
Joseph Bauder
Myra Van Inwegen wrote:
>
> > What (if anything) makes centerpull road brakes undesirable and/or
> > obsolete?
>
up at will. Plus, there's a little lever travel before I lock up, so if
I accidentally pull too hard in a panic stop, no unwanted lock-up.
Sidepulls aren't perfectly designed by any stretch; they have a lot of
flex, but they work just fine.
Plus, sidepulls give you room for bigger tires & fenders. I
started on dual-pivots, but don't touch them anymore.
Joe
Jobst Brandt
Rick Denney writes:
>> vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo introduced the
>> first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
> I thought Campagnolo introduced their side-pull brake in the very
> late 60's. Maybe 1969? I recall full campy bikes of the day having
> Weineman or Mafac centerpulls. Did it just take that long for the
> sidepull brakes to be accepted?
The pro teams were equipped with them long before they reached the
market. I don't recall when they became available for general use.
The point is that when the Campagnolo brake was available, the
centerpull was dumped quickly. I recall switching back to Universal
sidepull brakes in about 1958 to get away from the messy centerpulls.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Mark McMaster
John Many Jars wrote:
>
> In article <35113C...@ix.netcom.com>,
> Mark McMaster <MMc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Compared to centerpull brakes, sidepull brakes have shorter arms which
> >flex less.
>
> >The pivots on centerpull brakes are to the side of the rim, so the arc that
> >the brake pads travel on can sweep upward and into the tire as the pads wear
>
> >Oh yeah, centerpull brakes usually weigh more, too.
>
> hey, don't all these disadvantages also apply to the latest innovation
> in road brakes: dual pivots?
Yes, except that dual pivot brakes also have a built-in self centering
feature, which allows the pads to be set closer to the rim without
dragging. This in turn allows dual pivots to be designed with a higher
overall mechanical advantage. Some centerpull brakes also had a self
centering feature, but it usually didn't work as well as that used by
dual pivots. (This is not to say that I am a proponent of dual pivots
either.)
Mark McMaster
MMc...@ix.netcom.com
Jobst Brandt
Chuck Schmidt writes:
>> The canterpull vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo
>> introduced the first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
> ATTENTION! ATTENTION! JOBST MISINFORMATION ALERT!
> The Campagnolo Record brakeset was introduced in 1967, not
> the "early 1960's" as stated above!
What do you mean by introduced. I saw these brakes on team bicycles
without inscribed brand identification on the calipers and I saw them
on professional team bicycles. They were not available until later
for the public. I left Europe in 1964 so I used the term early
1960's. I don't know the date, but that has little bearing on the
centerpull brake issue.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Sheldon Brown
Tom Ace wrote:
>
> Weren't some racers using Universal Super 68 sidepulls
> before Campy Record brakes were available? They had
> a quick release and were lightweight. I thought the
> main advantages the Record brakes offered were stiffer
> caliper arms and a better barrel adjustment mechanism.
The Universals were very nice brakes in their day, and the levers were
definitely the lightest available for many years, but were extremely fragile.
Compared with previous calipers, the original Campagnolo units were
substantially better made and finished, like all Campagnolo stuff of that era.
I think they were the first to have tire guides built in, also, but I could
be wrong...
The bigger difference was in the levers. The construction and design of the
Campagnolo levers differed from the best of previous models as a Cannondale
differs from a Huffy.
Although I always adored the workmanship and overall quality of the original
Record brakes, I never liked to ride with them, or any Campagnolo
single-pivot, because they have less mechanical advantage than I
prefer...however, lots of people prefer the lower mechanical advantage, and
find them easier to modulate.
Sheldon "De Gustibus" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts
+-------------------------------------------------------+
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| than to go through life filled with suspicion. |
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+-------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-1040 FAX 617-244-1041
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris
Tom Ace
Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Compared with previous calipers, the original Campagnolo units
> were substantially better made and finished, like all Campagnolo
> stuff of that era.
For the most part I agree--but the Record sidepulls I bought
around 1979 had one of those "how could they be so stupid"
kind of flaws. The washer between the caliper arms (Campag
part #2015/1) was plated. The plating soon pitted and led
to gritty brake action. I replaced the washer with a plain
brass one that I took from... a Universal Super 68.
Tom Ace
cr...@best.com
Keith Helmink
Sheldon Brown wrote in message <35131432...@sheldonbrown.com>...
>Although I always adored the workmanship and overall quality of the
original
>Record brakes, I never liked to ride with them, or any Campagnolo
>single-pivot, because they have less mechanical advantage than I
>prefer...however, lots of people prefer the lower mechanical advantage, and
>find them easier to modulate.
I am currently riding real old Campy record brakes, circa 1972 or so. Still
as solid as ever, including the levers. The only change is cheap cables
(next time around I'm getting Campy cables) and Aztec brake blocks (much
better than stock Campy.) In addition, I can't use more modern brakes. I
don't have provision for recessed mounting nuts, or the shorter reach on
modern brakes on my 1980 Trek frame.
Keith Helmink
Rick Denney
> Plus, sidepulls give you room for bigger tires & fenders. I
>started on dual-pivots, but don't touch them anymore.
>
I just installed a pair of long-reach 105 dual-pivots on an old
Cannondale touring frame that I bought to make into a commuter. They
wrap easily around the installed fenders and Ritchey 700x32 tires.
Rick Denney
>I am currently riding real old Campy record brakes, circa 1972 or so. Still
>as solid as ever, including the levers. The only change is cheap cables
>(next time around I'm getting Campy cables) and Aztec brake blocks (much
>better than stock Campy.) In addition, I can't use more modern brakes. I
>don't have provision for recessed mounting nuts, or the shorter reach on
>modern brakes on my 1980 Trek frame.
>
I just put some 105 long-reach dual-pivots on an old 'dale touring
bike that was designed for non-recessed bolts. I drilled a bigger hole
in the back side of the fork crown. I used a Kestrel recessed nut, and
installed the "rear" brake on the fork with the long recessed nut. I
installed the "front" brake on the rear using a regular nut. I then
switched the brake pads to the other side (not necessary, but why
not?). The bike requires something like 60 or 62 mm of reach, and the
pads are not at the limits of the arms.
nbce...@delphi.com
It may be heresy but, I found the Mafac Competitions on my PX10-LEs
to be very nice. However, they were not a fashionable as the Campy Record
brakesets of that period....a set of which still works just fine on my
Austro Daimler Super Licht(sp?) from 1978.
Brian Lafferty
alex wetmore
Keith Helmink wrote in message <6f0cfu$h7l$1...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
>In addition, I can't use more modern brakes. I
>don't have provision for recessed mounting nuts, or the shorter reach on
>modern brakes on my 1980 Trek frame.
You can get Shimano pivot bolts that allow you to use their current brakes
with frames that aren't drilled for recessed nuts. Quality lists them in
their catalog (or did about a year ago) under an exploded view of a Shimano
dual-pivot brake. I ordered them through my LBS. None of the LBS's knew
that they existed... I only found them after asking a LBS if I could look
through their Quality catalog for such a part.
(I know you didn't ask this question, but it is useful information. I went
this route when replacing the brakes on my ~1984 Klein touring frame).
Marnu
>>> The canterpull vanished from the professional ranks when Campagnolo
>>> introduced the first reasonable sidepull brake in the early 1960's.
I seem to recall that Thevenet (sp?) won the Tour de France around 1972 on a
Peugeot equipped with Mafac Competition centerpulls. One unique thing about
these brakes on the PY10 CP is that they were brazed-on at the pivots (no arch
piece) kinda like mountain bike brakes.
I still ride my PY10 CP once in a while.
marnu
Hajaj
><snip>
> Stopping power you don't necessarily need. I can lock my sidepulls
>up at will.
><snip>
Even when your rims are wet?
I could sure use something better than my side-pulls, when it's
raining or snowing.
What kind of brake shoes do you use?
Hajaj
Den Blaa Kurér Copenhagen
chrell...@post3.tele.dk
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