Dura Ace to go electronic shifting in 2004???
Matt Wheeler
system, so what are the advantages? Cosmetics from no cables? Not having
to maintain cables? But that isn't too much of an issue on the road (for me
anyway).
--
Matt Wheeler
<tec...@uniserve.com> wrote in message
news:45tffucch5c8smrk7...@4ax.com...
> Guys in my club say they heard that DA is going to
> electronic shifting in 2004.
>
> Any chance this is a possibility?
>
> There has to be a reliable way to make this happen with all
> the advances in miniturization, battery technology and
> mini-servo motors/actuators over the past (and next) couple
> years.
>
> If the Russians can send Lance Bass to the moon, I can't see
> why we can't have electronic shifting!
>
> It would be sort of cool to get rid of the cables and such.
> If it does work (not like Mektronic) they would sure be a
> few steps ahead of their Italian rival!
>
> Fingers crossed for 2004!!......
Toby Hamilton
> No matter how reliable, I can't see it being as reliable as the current
> system, so what are the advantages? Cosmetics from no cables? Not having
> to maintain cables? But that isn't too much of an issue on the road (for
me
> anyway).
Sure, we can get rid of those ugly cables (strands of metal wrapped in
plastic) and replace them with wires (strands of a different metal wrapped
in a different plastic). <g>
For me to even consider buying something like electronic shifting, it'd have
to perform as well as mechanical, be no more expensive, and be no less
reliable. I think that's going to be pretty tough to do, and no list of
'gee-whiz' features would make up for deficiencies in any of these areas. At
least not to me -- but I imagine there are people who would pay a lot of
money for something like this just because it's high tech. Sounds like an
ideal target market from a manufacturer's point of view!
--
Toby Hamilton (th-...@rogers.com)
Matt Wheeler
"Toby Hamilton" <th-...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:hyTJ8.154923$ah_.1...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> Sure, we can get rid of those ugly cables (strands of metal wrapped in
> plastic) and replace them with wires (strands of a different metal wrapped
> in a different plastic). <g>
I assume it will be wireless. But still, its got a lot to overcome to end
up on one of my bikes.
--
Matt Wheeler
Chet Liew
performed better but at a cost premium. the same is true for CD's, computer
systems, etc.... many informed people are willing to opt for thousand dollar
options if the performance benefit is significant. and yes, many ignorant
people are willing to shell out that money just because it's the latest and
greatest thing regardless of how it performs.
good executions of ideas that can come down in price point stick around (CD,
DVD, ABS, Cell phones), bad ones (Mektronic, BETA, kozmo.com, Webvan) don't.
i figure if shimano really wanted to invest in a reliable system they could
do so in the next 2 years. They've likely already been prototyping the past
couple of years as well. i'm thinking it would be really cool to have RF
shifters to eliminate wires and some sort of kinetic (like the seiko
watches) system to power the shifting. i'm not an electrical engineer so i
don't know what kind of current would be required to do this. i could see a
measurable weight advantage if you could eliminate all of the mechanical
parts of a shifter, cables and housing, braze-ons and replace it with a CPU,
transmitter and a couple buttons on a carbon fiber brake hood.
if there was enough demand for such a system or if shimano manufactured the
system out of "off-the-shelf" component designs and technology (garage door
openers/car alarm/etc... components) i'm thinking they could do so pretty
cost-efficiently. if i really wanted to get techno-nerdy, i could see
something like bluetooth (http://www.bluetooth.org) for bikes (completely
wireless computers, automatic garage door sensors, race tracking devices,
GPS, training/communications devices)...could be some really neat stuff down
the line for racers, mountain bikers, commuters, adventure racers...etc.
just my two cents...sure it would be expensive to start out with but
eventually the technology would trickle down. and yes, i totally agree that
it has to perform as good or better than current systems for it to be
acceptable. and if you must know...my digital/carbon fiber viewpoint stems
from my line of work and being a fan of Formula 1.
-c
"Toby Hamilton" <th-...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:hyTJ8.154923$ah_.1...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Toby Hamilton
> I assume it will be wireless. But still, its got a lot to overcome to end
> up on one of my bikes.
That's even more scary then... every once in a while people write about
difficulties with wireless computers doing funny things when they pass under
power lines or get too close to somebody else with a similar device. I hope
wireless shifting would at least be designed with some sort of error
detection protocol, so that if it receives corrupted data, it doesn't shift
at all. Rather than, for example, deciding now would be a really good time
to shift down 7 gears by surprise. <g>
With all this electrical stuff, I'm surprised nobody is pushing a standard
bicycle electrical system with one battery, a small alternator, and a wiring
harness with connectors for all the equipment. Surely with a little effort,
we can get bicycles up to the same level of complexity as motorcycles, can't
we? ;)
--
Toby Hamilton (th-...@rogers.com)
doc greg
tec...@uniserve.com wrote:
> Guys in my club say they heard that DA is going to
> electronic shifting in 2004.
>
Maybe now I'll finally update my friction shifters
Ken
Then I still drive a standard shift auto soooo.
Ken@Kauai
<tec...@uniserve.com> wrote in message
news:45tffucch5c8smrk7...@4ax.com...
> Guys in my club say they heard that DA is going to
> electronic shifting in 2004.
>
John Carrier
R / John
<techer
Qui si parla Campagnolo
If it does work (not like Mektronic) they would sure be a
few steps ahead of their Italian rival!
Fingers crossed for 2004!! >>
Cables and housing are so cheap and reliable. Batteries, sensors, antennas, etc
...can't see how it would be an improvement over the current gear, regardless
of who came out with it...
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl ST.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Like ohhhh so much in this very flat bicycle market...
G Huang
>
> No matter how reliable, I can't see it being as reliable as the current
> system, so what are the advantages? Cosmetics from no cables? Not having
> to maintain cables? But that isn't too much of an issue on the road (for me
> anyway).
>
> --
> Matt Wheeler
>
Now, I can imagine a hacker amongst the spectators of the Tour de France
with a remote control device in his hand ...
GH
Anders H. Andersen
As long as they dont' make wireless electronic brakes, that would be
scary!
Anders
Anders H. Andersen
wrote:
>
>
>Now, I can imagine a hacker amongst the spectators of the Tour de France
>with a remote control device in his hand ...
>
LOL Armstrong trying to turn 110rpm in Honchar gearing...
Anders
Charlie C.
news:2oTJ8.378$2n4...@nwrddc04.gnilink.net:
> No matter how reliable, I can't see it being as reliable as the current
> system, so what are the advantages? Cosmetics from no cables? Not
> having to maintain cables? But that isn't too much of an issue on the
> road (for me anyway).
>
> --
> Matt Wheeler
>>
>> Guys in my club say they heard that DA is going to
>> electronic shifting in 2004.
>>
>> Any chance this is a possibility?
One possible advantage would be the ability to shift gears from many
potential hand postions because you could put shift "buttons" anywhere your
hands are likely to go. There is probably a way you could arrange for the
feet to do the shifting as well...
Personally I like the standard STI system that I use. But people who needed
to switch between aerobars and "normal" positioning might find electronic
shiters advantageous.
Take care,
Charlie
C_ronin_V
not be prehistoric about this.
Matt Wheeler
controlling a rudder thats a hundred feet away from you, not a derailleur 2
feet away from you.
--
Matt Wheeler
"C_ronin_V" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:adc0sg$maf$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Tony Dickson
"Charlie C." <charl...@excite.com> wrote
> might find electronic
> shiters advantageous.
Now that's one thing I'd rather handle the old-fashioned way. :)
Mark Hickey
>Fly by wire, not Fly by wireless.... and it has advantages when you're
>controlling a rudder thats a hundred feet away from you, not a derailleur 2
>feet away from you.
I suppose if you had a NASA or even Boeing-size development budget and
price structure, you could probably make an electrically operated bike
drivetrain shift wonderfully and reliably.
There have been attempts before - all failed horribly when the "theory
met the real world". For example, if you ever race in the rain, I
hope you get good at winning on a "single speed"... ;-)
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
Yuji Sakuma
Not to argue in favor of electronic shifting (I still occasionally ride a bike with
friction shifters!) but I see that the automobile racers have gone to paddle
shifters which I believe operate gears electronically. Maybe the shifts can
theoretically be faster, more precise and perhaps safer than with mechanical
shifting. Also, I can see some theoretical ergonomic advantages on bicycles for
not having to move hands or fingers to shift. There can be more than one button in
different positions on the handlebars. Just as paddle shifters have virtually no
benefit for anybody except F1 racers, there will be dick all practical performance
difference with electronic shifting for 99.99% of bicycle riders.
Best regards,
Yuji Sakuma
=============================================================
Qui si parla Campagnolo
ride a bike with
friction shifters!) but I see that the automobile racers have gone to paddle
shifters which I believe operate gears electronically. >>
Think that F-1, the most expensive passtime in the world, could develop
electronic shifting for racers...will we see these in Subarus?, think not...
Not saying with enough Yen, it isn't possible but unless it's lighter and
better, don't see what the reason is. Cable/pulleys/chain is pretty efficient.
<< Also, I can see some theoretical ergonomic advantages on bicycles for
not having to move hands or fingers to shift >>
Unless it's via thought waves, gonna have to move something. Have we gotten so
lazy that we can't even move our fingers to shift??
Qui si parla Campagnolo
"improve" and hence market to the masses.
I think wireless/electronic shifting would be the next "big
thing" to market. People would buy it for sure. I would. >>
You are exactly who shimano is looking for....
Did you buy Mektronic and Zap?
<< I don't believe for an instant that Shimano engineers could
not make it reliable. >>
Hmmmm, they can't seem to make DA and ultegra reliable, we sent back another
nearly new DA STI last week...
<< I think even guys like Peter
will warm up to it given some time. >>
wanna bet?
<< What else will Shimano be able to market over the next 5
years? 10 speed blocks? Nah...wireless baby..thats the
future. >>
Another step backward in bicycle development...like compact framesets and
integrated HS....silly
Bruce Gilbert
The next thing from Shimano will be an extension of the FlightDeck
technology. It will include a locking bottom bracket and shifter handle
mechanism. The function of those components will be activated by a unique
DNA sensor located on the computer button. If there is not a good biological
signature, the bike cannot be ridden and theft is prevented.
The STI failures that you are complaining about are nothing more than an
advanced field test for the shifter mechanism. When the new product is
released, you will see the wisdom and be very happy.
This new device will also eliminate doping in the professional end of the
sport. Along with the DNA test, a number of other checks can be put into
action. There will be a special transmitter chip used for sending in
bio-test results and entering race timing data, as well as a GPS tracking
system to see if the racers are following the course.
See, technology is making our lives better and far more secure....
Bruce
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020603084629...@mb-fx.aol.com...
Steve Blankenship
> Think that F-1, the most expensive passtime in the world, could develop
> electronic shifting for racers...will we see these in Subarus?, think
not...
Actually, you will probably see exactly this in the next version of the WRX
this fall, and it will be a common item in a couple of years. Toyota
already has it out in the U.S. market in the $25K MR2, as do the more
upmarket BMW M3 and a couple of Ferraris. There are a few more out in
Europe.
As to the wisdom of such on bikes, well...
SB
Alex Rodriguez
th-...@rogers.com says...
Mavic has managed to pull off the trick twice. When the shifters first
come out everyone raves about them, even though they cost and arm and a leg.
About a year later everyone is selling them off at a huge discount and then
Mavic quietly discontinues the setup.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)
Alex Rodriguez
If wireless, how will they keep my shifts from affecting the guy next to
me? Unlike Mavic which was not very common, lots of people use Shimano.
Alex Rodriguez
>
>Peter,
>
>Not to argue in favor of electronic shifting (I still occasionally ride a bike
with
>friction shifters!) but I see that the automobile racers have gone to paddle
>shifters which I believe operate gears electronically. Maybe the shifts can
>theoretically be faster, more precise and perhaps safer than with mechanical
>shifting. Also, I can see some theoretical ergonomic advantages on bicycles
for
>not having to move hands or fingers to shift. There can be more than one
button in
>different positions on the handlebars. Just as paddle shifters have virtually
no
>benefit for anybody except F1 racers, there will be dick all practical
performance
>difference with electronic shifting for 99.99% of bicycle riders.
Not a fair comparison. In F1 the computer manages the engine, clutch and
transmission, so it can pull off very fast shifts with no problems. On a
bike the shifter would only be controlling the shifting and has no influence
on the engine, so the shifts will at best be the same as a standard shifter.
Anders H. Andersen
Campagnolo) wrote:
>
>Think that F-1, the most expensive passtime in the world, could develop
>electronic shifting for racers...will we see these in Subarus?, think not...
Actually Alfa Romeo has been selling F1 gear in the 156 2.0 selespeed
for about 2 years, this is otherwise a standard Alfa.
Anders
Lewis Nusgarten
John Carrier wrote:
Just like STI!
Pete Biggs
> << Also, I can see some theoretical ergonomic advantages on bicycles for
> not having to move hands or fingers to shift >>
>
> Unless it's via thought waves
Or computerized-automatic - which have already been invented for "comfort"
bikes.
> gonna have to move something. Have we gotten so
> lazy that we can't even move our fingers to shift??
Yeah, me! :-) No, but I wouldn't mind something that felt even nicer and
easier to use than Ergos or STIs. I'm sure we will get good electronic
shifting systems. It's just a question of when. Maybe not 2004, but
certainly by 2040!
--
~PB pL...@biggs.tc {remove fruit}
Yuji Sakuma
Campagnolo NR and SR friction shifters (various 1970's). In my view, the throws
on the ergo shifters are much too long, so much so that I sometimes think that the
friction shifters are better, especially for upshifts onto the big ring with the
front changer. Campagnolo index shifters are not perfect.
Yuji
=================================================
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> --<snip>--Unless it's via thought waves, gonna have to move something. Have we
Alex Rodriguez
STI has a proven track record that speaks for itself.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> As long as they dont' make wireless electronic brakes, that would
>> be scary!
> Most passenger jets are fly by wire. And you're at 30,000 feet.
> Let's not be prehistoric about this.
So what's that got to do with wireless? My car has central locking,
but it isn't wireless.
Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Not to argue in favor of electronic shifting (I still occasionally
> ride a bike with friction shifters!) but I see that the automobile
> racers have gone to paddle shifters which I believe operate gears
> electronically.
They have been shifting and performing other functions from buttons on
the steering wheel. Steering is so strongly servo assisted that it
turns less than a half revolution from end to end with no relative
hand motion required.
> Maybe the shifts can theoretically be faster, more precise and
> perhaps safer than with mechanical shifting.
More precise than what? This is a digital operation. Either you are
in the gear or not with indexed shifting, the duration of a click also
being insignificant.
> Also, I can see some theoretical ergonomic advantages on bicycles
> for not having to move hands or fingers to shift.
Well that's what got the shift levers off the downtube. People were
terrified of letting go of the bars to shift... and pedal at the same
time. Besides the acceptable cadence in a narrow band being sacred
for many riders, is best taken care of with 30 ratios and no shift
pause. I believe this is what's behind these designs.
> There can be more than one button in different positions on the
> handlebars. Just as paddle shifters have virtually no benefit for
> anybody except F1 racers, there will be dick all practical
> performance difference with electronic shifting for 99.99% of
> bicycle riders.
Don't laugh, the button on the steering wheel gear shift is on the
way, especially for those who like to feel they are in control (but
can't operate a clutch/shift action to any satisfaction. This was
brought to mind as I was passed by every manor of pickup/SUV in the
mountains, automatically shifting while hard on the gas on hills.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Shift buttons could be on the tops, hoods, drops...wherever.
Or everywhere!
> The marketing guys at Shimano are running out of items to "improve"
> and hence market to the masses.
Yes, and you think this is good?
> I think wireless/electronic shifting would be the next "big thing"
> to market. People would buy it for sure. I would. I don't believe
> for an instant that Shimano engineers could not make it reliable.
> Wireless is everywhere now.
Not for life related consumer products like brakes or steering.
> Mektronic was a couple years before its time but without a shadow of
> a doubt I know we will see it on lots of bikes within 5 years
> guaranteed and I think even guys like Peter will warm up to it given
> some time.
I think the failure is misunderstood. UCI rules state that no power
other than the rider's physical ability could be used in competition.
Therefore, the electronic part that controls the shift was allowed to
slip through this requirement, but only for the selection of gears.
Actual shifting must be from rider power and that is one of the places
where this mechanical device failed miserably. The mechanism is
extremely fragile and small and required a geometry (sliding post ala
early Simplex) that has been discredited more than 40 years ago by the
advent of the Campagnolo parallelogram mechanism.
> What else will Shimano be able to market over the next 5 years? 10
> speed blocks? Nah...wireless baby..thats the future.
We'll have to see how Shimano solves the mechanical shift portion of
the device. It should be interesting but in the past they have
copied earlier failures, so I'm not sure what to expect.
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.17.html
Brad Silverberg
2004? Are there any reliable sources? It would be nice to hear from
someone with direct knowledge, rather than "I heard from a friend of a
friend," or, "I read on the Internet."
I wonder if the rumor didn't all get started from cyclingnews.com,
which recently posed the question to its readers to speculate on D-A
2004 (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/?id=2002/letters/may31#dura).
One of the replies is pure speculation from a Paul Turner:
My guess is full electronic (or mektronic so to speak). This will
include all the comforts of current computer/heart rate monitor
functions such as usual speed, trip and also include heart rate,
cadence and power out. This will all be digitally supplied via the new
Shimano 'laptop' computer screen which will replace the current
computer.
The screen will be linked to the cranks for wattage and cadence and
front wheel for other bike functions, all via cordless remote.
The brakes will be totally redesigned to a carbon lightweight
hydraulic disc set up.
This new DURAacetronic groupset will mean:
逼o more gear cable (all electronic)
菱ydraulic super-lightweight disc brakes
逼o need for computer or HR rate monitor as all info supplied by
'laptop 'carbon cranks
稗loody expensive!
Betya I'm close!
Paul Turner
Mark Hickey
>The next thing from Shimano will be an extension of the FlightDeck
>technology. It will include a locking bottom bracket and shifter handle
>mechanism. The function of those components will be activated by a unique
>DNA sensor located on the computer button. If there is not a good biological
>signature, the bike cannot be ridden and theft is prevented.
Fast forward to the Tour de France, 2004.
Phil L: "Lance is decimating the pack yet again this year's major
climbs, and has attacked again. Wait... wait. Oh, my. He's in a
spot of bother now! His TREK carbon fiber frame just broke in half.
But wait, his trusty lieutenant Marco Pantani has struggled up and is
offering Lance his bike.... I don't understand - Lance is just
standing over Marco's bike cursing - what ever could be wrong?"
Lewis Nusgarten
I'm not quite sure what track record STI (and its' Campy equivalents)
has, besides being heavy, overly complex and expensive. Since lots of
people seem to like them or at least accept them as a fait accompli as
far as new bikes are concerened, who am I to argue? Since I don't like
them, and feel they really are a "solution in search of a problem", I
don't use them on my bikes.
Luigi T
"What a great idea! Separate brake levers and downtube shifters! Shimano
finally does something right, and at a fraction of the cost of STI!"
Qui si parla Campagnolo
people seem to like them or at least accept them as a fait accompli as
far as new bikes are concerened, who am I to argue? Since I don't like
them, and feel they really are a "solution in search of a problem", I
don't use them on my bikes. >>
Nor do I...'brifters'. like Sheldon likes to call them, has made it easier for
people new to the sport to get functionality outta their bikes. They would be
useless w/o the 'indexing' or 'automatic transmission' aspect of them tho..
I think they are essential for
-beginners
-mountan bikes
-racers(only cuz they all have them)
For recreational riders, I put them in the 'nice to have but not essential'
catagory.
Ned Mantei
vecc...@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:
>Nor do I...'brifters'. like Sheldon likes to call them, has made it easier for
>people new to the sport to get functionality outta their bikes. They would be
>useless w/o the 'indexing' or 'automatic transmission' aspect of them tho..
>
>I think they are essential for
>-beginners
>-mountan bikes
>-racers(only cuz they all have them)
Also good for people who ride in heavy traffic, since the hands stay
closer to the brake levers and you never know when a panic stop might be
needed. (My favorites in this regard are the people who cross streets
"by ear": If they don't hear a car coming they will step into the street
without looking first.)
--
Ned Mantei
Department of Cell Biology, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
CH-8093 Zurich, Switzerland
Bruce Jackson
> I'm not quite sure what track record STI (and its' Campy equivalents)
> has, besides being heavy, overly complex and expensive. Since lots of
> people seem to like them or at least accept them as a fait accompli as
> far as new bikes are concerened, who am I to argue? Since I don't like
> them, and feel they really are a "solution in search of a problem", I
> don't use them on my bikes.
I am a little dissapointed that Campy is discontinuing their down tube
index shifters.
A while back I converted from 7-speed friction to 9-speed index spending
less than $200 on parts by going with down tube shifters. Now I learn
that the new Campy 9-speed derailures are not compatable with my recently
purchased shifters and Campy will not make any down tube shifters any
more. So basically a year after I upgrade some parts on my bike are
orphans. If either my shifters or deraileur eat it I have go with ergo.
I've come to expect things like this from Shimano but I'm used to using
Campy stuff for many years (I'm still using some 30 year old Campy parts
on my beater).
Heavy sigh,
Bruce
Arthur Clune
: I am a little dissapointed that Campy is discontinuing their down tube
: index shifters.
Aren't they still making bar end shifters (for aerobars?)
: A while back I converted from 7-speed friction to 9-speed index spending
: less than $200 on parts by going with down tube shifters. Now I learn
: that the new Campy 9-speed derailures are not compatable with my recently
: purchased shifters and Campy will not make any down tube shifters any
: more.
The good news is that this isn't true. Although Campy claim this, in practice
it all works fine.
I'm doing the opposite to you - new Ergos, old shifter and it works fine. Other
people have gone the other way (new shifter, old Ergos) and it all works. Maybe
it's not as smooth as an all new system or something but it indexes perfectly.
Arthur
--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
Power is delightful. Absolute power is absolutely delightful - Lord Lester
Benjamin Lewis
> Nor do I...'brifters'. like Sheldon likes to call them, has made it
> easier for people new to the sport to get functionality outta their
> bikes. They would be useless w/o the 'indexing' or 'automatic
> transmission' aspect of them tho..
>
> I think they are essential for
> -beginners
Good thing there were no beginners before brifters came along. Or perhaps
this is some strange usage of the word 'essential' of which I was not
previously aware...
--
Benjamin Lewis
On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague:
"This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli
bfd
Don't sigh just yet. You should try your 9 speed dt shifters with the
"older" 9 spd derailleur. I think you'll find that despite what campy
wants you to believe, they will work. Give it a try....
scotus
of downtube friction shifters I got my first brifters when I built up a bike
for my Christmas present to myself. Here's what I found out about brifters
* you can't finesse anything in thanks to indexing
* setup is a pain in the ass
* maintenance? we don' need no stinkin' maintenance (this really chaps my
ass about STI)
* if you're really serious about using your cluster and chainrings, and you
have any variation in terrain to speak of, indexing and STI/ergo is the way
to go.
I do a lot of laps around a park with a rolling terrain and some tight
turns. I put on my HRM strap, and keep heart rate between 161-175 for as
long as I can, then I recover at below 140 BPM, then get the rate back up
until I want to toss the bike in a dumpster, lay down, and die. Then I get
to go home.
I have the same HRM setup on a Schwinn Voyageur with friction downtube
shifters, and I do the same routine on it as well. I can't get the same
near efficiency out of my pedalling with the downtube setup as I can with
the brifters, at least as far as lap times go, and that's taking the basic
bike differences into consideration as best I can. The little time lags in
shifting do add up. I originally didn't think it would make any difference
to speak of, but I went through the trouble to map out my gear ratios on
both bikes and work the daylights out of them to maintain cadence and effort
over time. I tried my best on the Schwinn with the downtube shifters, but
the brifters allow me to much more quickly match gears to my fatigue level
and spend a lot more of my energy moving forward, or so it has seemed after
2 months of switching back and forth between 2 bikes on the same route.
Maybe this is OT, but I'm trying to get better at what I do, and minimizing
time in shifting does make a significant difference in my elapsed times over
the laps I do. In all liklihood this difference would be greatly minimized
with bar end indexed shifting, but as far as downtube friction shifting
goes, I'll leave it on touring bikes.
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020606085111...@mb-mf.aol.com...
Ed Falis
> I have the same HRM setup on a Schwinn Voyageur with friction downtube
> shifters, and I do the same routine on it as well. I can't get the same
> near efficiency out of my pedalling with the downtube setup as I can with
> the brifters, at least as far as lap times go, and that's taking the basic
> bike differences into consideration as best I can. The little time lags in
> shifting do add up. I originally didn't think it would make any difference
> to speak of, but I went through the trouble to map out my gear ratios on
> both bikes and work the daylights out of them to maintain cadence and effort
> over time. I tried my best on the Schwinn with the downtube shifters, but
> the brifters allow me to much more quickly match gears to my fatigue level
> and spend a lot more of my energy moving forward, or so it has seemed after
> 2 months of switching back and forth between 2 bikes on the same route.
>
I wonder how DT indexed shifters would fit into the equation? I like 'em.
- Ed
Qui si parla Campagnolo
index shifters. >>
Haven't yet-stock up on a few three spring types and some index
gears(cheap)either 8/9/10s...these things never wear out and use the same
springs as ERGO...
Qui si parla Campagnolo
that the new Campy 9-speed derailures are not compatable with my recently
purchased shifters and Campy will not make any down tube shifters any
more. >>
Not true at all...any Campag shifter will work with any rder, as long as it's
not toasted. Don't believe everything you hear or read on the 'net'.
Your 9s DT shifters will work great with any new Campag rder, including 10s,
w/o modification.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
I use my fixed gear for this-no ders at all....
Not the Karl Orff
"C_ronin_V" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Most passenger jets are fly by wire. And you're at 30,000 feet. Let's
> not be prehistoric about this.
Hmm, I beg to differ. there are precisely 4 models (broad category) of
commercial aircraft that are fly-by-wire.
The most common ones in North America skies, the 737s, are not. Nor are
the 757s, 767s, 747s, DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/MD-95/717, 727s, A300s, A310s and
other older planes (707s, DC-8s, among others).
Jay Beattie
> people seem to like them or at least accept them as a fait accompli as
> far as new bikes are concerened, who am I to argue? Since I don't like
> them, and feel they really are a "solution in search of a problem", I
> don't use them on my bikes. >>
>
> Nor do I...'brifters'. like Sheldon likes to call them, has made it easier
for
> people new to the sport to get functionality outta their bikes. They would
be
> useless w/o the 'indexing' or 'automatic transmission' aspect of them
tho..
>
> I think they are essential for
> -beginners
> -mountan bikes
> -racers(only cuz they all have them)
>
> For recreational riders, I put them in the 'nice to have but not
essential'
> catagory.
Frankly, I think that friction shifters are for beginners and that any
experienced cyclist would use a dual rod derailleur like I do. Sometimes I
even shift with a stick, or rock -- or even bend down and shift with my
teeth. Of course, I wouldn't have to shift at all except for the fact that I
have to climb the Col d'Aune Reney (22% on the flat sections) on the way
home from work every day. -- Jay Beattie.
Corey Green
to the other gear.....
<peb...@bambam.com> wrote in message
news:9lf2gu4r4aus9595k...@4ax.com...
> >Frankly, I think that friction shifters are for beginners and that any
> >experienced cyclist would use a dual rod derailleur like I do. Sometimes
I
> >even shift with a stick, or rock -- or even bend down and shift with my
> >teeth. Of course, I wouldn't have to shift at all except for the fact
that I
> >have to climb the Col d'Aune Reney (22% on the flat sections) on the way
> >home from work every day. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I hooked up a short throw hurst 5 speed shifter to me
> derailleur. I have a steep climb to work and I take a
> different way home and it climbs more. Shift her down to
> Low-1 and away I go!
Leo
Jobst,
Was this deliberate, or a Freudian slip:
"by every manor of pickup/SUV"?
It is hilarious in any case!
Yes, these SUVs are so palatial, that they are "manors" on wheels.
Ryan Cousineau
Leo <baldwinleo@attbi.*nospam*.com> wrote:
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > Yuji Sakuma writes:
> >
> >
> >>Not to argue in favor of electronic shifting (I still occasionally
> >>ride a bike with friction shifters!) but I see that the automobile
> >>racers have gone to paddle shifters which I believe operate gears
> >>electronically.
> >
> >
> > They have been shifting and performing other functions from buttons on
> > the steering wheel. Steering is so strongly servo assisted that it
> > turns less than a half revolution from end to end with no relative
> > hand motion required.
> >>Also, I can see some theoretical ergonomic advantages on bicycles
> >>for not having to move hands or fingers to shift.
> >
> >
> > Well that's what got the shift levers off the downtube. People were
> > terrified of letting go of the bars to shift... and pedal at the same
> > time. Besides the acceptable cadence in a narrow band being sacred
> > for many riders, is best taken care of with 30 ratios and no shift
> > pause. I believe this is what's behind these designs.
> >
> >
> >>There can be more than one button in different positions on the
> >>handlebars. Just as paddle shifters have virtually no benefit for
> >>anybody except F1 racers, there will be dick all practical
> >>performance difference with electronic shifting for 99.99% of
> >>bicycle riders.
What about using electronic shifters to create a "unified" shifting
pattern? You could program your shiftronic with the cogs and rings you
use, and it would automatically compute the gear sequence, ignoring
redundant and unusable (big-small, etc.) ratios. Then you would have
just two shift buttons in "unified" mode: UP, and DOWN. You hit the
button, and the shifter changes gears, be that a front change, a rear
change, or an alpine shift.
No more thinking, which I'm sure would be a great relief to Fabrizzio!
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcou...@sfu.cat (trim trailing t), www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
"Human behaviour is not obvious to quantify, and
student behaviour even less so." -Erick Wong
Toby Hamilton
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> What about using electronic shifters to create a "unified" shifting
> pattern? You could program your shiftronic with the cogs and rings you
> use, and it would automatically compute the gear sequence, ignoring
> redundant and unusable (big-small, etc.) ratios. Then you would have
> just two shift buttons in "unified" mode: UP, and DOWN. You hit the
> button, and the shifter changes gears, be that a front change, a rear
> change, or an alpine shift.
>
> No more thinking, which I'm sure would be a great relief to Fabrizzio!
Er... except now you don't know if you're going to get a front shift, rear
shift, or both at the same time (unless you memorize the shifting pattern,
of course). You'd have to treat every shift like a double shift, because it
might be. Anybody volunteer to try finessing a double shift while grinding
up a steep hill? <g>
(Now if they were to integrate it with a torque-sensing rear hub then they
could make it do rear-only shifts under high load, and incidentally make a
nifty power meter with it too.)
--
Toby Hamilton (th-...@rogers.com)