Alloy Spoke Nipples
Rudge
Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
Paul Southworth
Rudge <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Apart from the risk of corrosion, are there any other disadvantages in using
>Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
Yes you can't get them as tight, they fail more easily (ie,
cracking a nipple or just cheesing off the flats with a spoke
wrench), and they cost more.
--Paul
David Ornee
"Paul Southworth" <cnhyf-10...@usenet.etext.org> wrote in message
news:GKsN9.28517$A%3.37...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
I agree with Paul, in principle. However, with proper lubrication and a
good spoke wrench, you can tighten alloy nipple sufficiently to attain a
good build. You must lubricate the eyelet/nipple contact surfaces as well
as the nipple/spoke thread surfaces. I suggest a "Spokey" or DT spoke
wrench when dealing with alloy nipples.
I am able to attain 140 kg. tension on the spokes with alloy nipples and
either of these spoke wrenches.
When you get higher in spoke tension alloy nipples seem to compress a bit
more than plated brass nipples.
I use mostly DT nipples.
David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
A Muzi
news:4NWdnfPjhZ4...@brightview.com...
> Apart from the risk of corrosion, are there any other disadvantages in
using
> Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
It's dififcult to get adequate tension when building the wheel. Even among
brass nipples, wheelbuilding is much easier with hard ones like DT and
Wheelsmith than with the softer brands. Aluminum is aggravatingly worse.
And the weight difference is insignificant.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
Charles Beristain
with alloy nipples?
thanks
charlie
Member Help Community Leader
Michael Fuhr
> Has anyone determined the actual weight savings by replacing brass
> with alloy nipples?
Gee, and I thought brass *was* an alloy ;-)
http://www.dtswiss.com/en/speichen-gewichtsvergleich.html
http://www.damonrinard.com/weights.htm#nipples
About 40-50 grams for 64 nipples. A sip of water, and not a very
big sip at that. But oh yeah, it's "rotating weight" donchya know,
and that makes a world of difference :->
--
Michael Fuhr
http://www.fuhr.org/~mfuhr/
David Ornee
"Charles Beristain" <char...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3e06786d....@news-byoa.prodigy.net...
DT Brass nipple 12 mm 63 g for 64 nipples (per the DT Swiss table on their
website)
DT Alloy nipple 12 mm 22 g for 64 nipples (per the DT Swiss table on their
website)
= 41 g difference for 64 nipples. (about 2/3 gram per nipple)
Doug Goncz
is, two sides fully and two partially, leaving a slot for the spoke in the
corner, they aren't too bad. They are awfully easy to round off.
>Apart from the risk of corrosion, are there any other disadvantages in using
>Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
>
>
>
They are great for matching color to other anodized parts. But for weight
savings, hmm. How much would be saved by going to lighter spokes?
For the slot at the head of the nipple, there are screwdrivers with slightly
chamfered corners, to avoid digging into the rim, and also, such screwdrivers
usually have parallel ground blades. These make a big difference, as the taper
on a regular blade tends to force it out of the slot. Some 1/4 inch hex bits
are ground to a parallel condition and they are very inexpensive, too.
I would think alloy nipples would be appropriate for a reduced spoke count
15/16/15 gage spoked wheel with a narrow slick or a tubular, that is, a
glued-on tire and tube, for a lean rider with minimal load, on good trails or
roads.
Yours,
Doug Goncz, Replikon Research, Seven Corners, VA
(truncate pee dot mil antispam for mail)
http://users.aol.com/DGoncz
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=DGoncz
"Function, Funding, Form, Fit, and Finish"
A Muzi
> >Apart from the risk of corrosion, are there any other disadvantages in
using
> >Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
" Doug Goncz " <dgo...@aol.comp.mil> wrote in message
news:20021222231252...@mb-mu.aol.com...
> If you use the right lube and a spoke wrench that grips all four sides,
that
> is, two sides fully and two partially, leaving a slot for the spoke in the
> corner, they aren't too bad. They are awfully easy to round off.
> They are great for matching color to other anodized parts. But for weight
> savings, hmm. How much would be saved by going to lighter spokes?
>
> For the slot at the head of the nipple, there are screwdrivers with
slightly
> chamfered corners, to avoid digging into the rim, and also, such
screwdrivers
> usually have parallel ground blades. These make a big difference, as the
taper
> on a regular blade tends to force it out of the slot. Some 1/4 inch hex
bits
> are ground to a parallel condition and they are very inexpensive, too.
>
> I would think alloy nipples would be appropriate for a reduced spoke count
> 15/16/15 gage spoked wheel with a narrow slick or a tubular, that is, a
> glued-on tire and tube, for a lean rider with minimal load, on good trails
or
> roads.
"slightly chamfered corner" ? It's simple to grind the appropriate shape
screwdriver with a
1.5mm tip. (An off-the-rack 1.5mm screwdriver has a head wider than 6mm).
Var's nipple driver has a nice circular carrier that cups the nipple, the
blade is correct to a nipple's slot and there's a locating pin in the
center. You couldn't ask for a better fitting tool. It's woefully
inadequate for aluminum nipples.
Have you actually built a wheel by turning the spoke nipples at the end with
a screwdriver yourself? Did you get adequate tension that way on an
aluminum nipple? I would be greatly surprised if you have had good results
that way. I have enough difficulty with aluminum nipples grabbing 3-1/2
sides of the flats!
"Reduced spoke count"? With fewer spokes you'll need even more tension.
What does the tire have to do with the nipple selection? Tub rims still
require adequately high tension, something that's a PITA with soft nipples.
And something about "lean riders" and "good trails" makes loose wheels
acceptable?
Maybe it's just me, but when I'm 90% into a wheel and lose a nipple's edge
I find that aggravating. As I'm replacing it I know I'm going to lose more
in the last couple of turns. I hate that.
You are refreshingly honest when you point out the color aspect. If only
more people were as honest, willing to accept lousy wheels just to show off
those cute little purple nipples. Lots of riders try to claim some putative
"performance" advantage.
--
Andrew Muzi, who generally does not build with aluminum nipples.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
using
Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass? >>
They answer no question, solve no problem. The 'weight savings' is miniscule
when compared to their low durability and ease if them breaking or rounding.
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Qui si parla Campagnolo
that
is, two sides fully and two partially, leaving a slot for the spoke in the
corner, they aren't too bad. They are awfully easy to round off. >>
Have actually broken some aluminum nipples in two with a three sided spoke
wrench(DT) on an older wheel with lots of 'spoke freeze'...
Mike S.
your friends and astound your competitors with your color matched AL nippled
lightweight wheelset!
Having built a bunch of wheels over the years, AL nipples aren't that big an
issue. Lube 'em up, treat them just a little more gently when working with
them and you'll have no worries.
Did I mention that they look good?
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021223083426...@mb-cf.aol.com...
David Kunz
And, the corrode to the spoke (dissimilar metals) making it impossible
to retrue if they need a touch-up or the rim takes a big side hit (like
a branch wedged in the spokes :)).
I've used both. Using a spoke wrench that hits all flats, they can be
tightened adequately. But, I really prefer brass. Much easier to work
with and being able to touch-up the true is a good thing :).
David
Charles Beristain
Sheldon Brown
>>> in using
>>> Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
>>
>>
>> Yes you can't get them as tight, they fail more easily (ie,
>> cracking a nipple or just cheesing off the flats with a spoke
>> wrench), and they cost more.
A well intentioned person repeated a commonly misunderstood issue:
> And, the corrode to the spoke (dissimilar metals) making it impossible
> to retrue if they need a touch-up or the rim takes a big side hit (like
> a branch wedged in the spokes :)).
Dissimilar metals are actually _less_ likely to cold weld together,
that's why better quality camera lenses use aluminum/brass/aluminum
helicoids for focussing.
In any case, nickel-plated brass is also a dissimilar metal to all kinds
of spokes.
> I've used both. Using a spoke wrench that hits all flats, they can be
> tightened adequately. But, I really prefer brass. Much easier to work
> with and being able to touch-up the true is a good thing :).
I too prefer brass, but not strongly, and will use aluminum for
lightweight wheels. If the mipples are properly lubricated and you use
a good fitting spoke wrench, either type gives good service.
I would avoid using aluminum nipples in an aluminum rim that doesn't
have eyelets, because the aluminum/aluminum contact is prone to cold
welding.
Sheldon "Dissimilar Is Good!" Brown
+------------------------------------------+
| So we'll go no more a roving |
| So late into the night, |
| Though the heart be still as loving, |
| And the moon be still as bright. |
| |
| For the sword outwears its sheath, |
| And the soul wears out the breast, |
| And the heart must pause to breathe, |
| And Love itself have rest. |
| |
| Though the night was made for loving, |
| And the day returns too soon, |
| Yet we'll go no more a roving |
| By the light of the moon. |
| --Lord Byron |
+------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
G.T.
>
>
> I too prefer brass, but not strongly, and will use aluminum for
> lightweight wheels. If the mipples are properly lubricated and you use
> a good fitting spoke wrench, either type gives good service.
>
To me it depends on how long the rims are going to be in service. I built
some MA2s with DT alloy nipples back in 1992. Since these wheels were used
just periodically over the last 10 years the rims were in fine shape.
Unfortunately the nipples were not. One day I was JRA and ping, one nipple
exploded. 5 seconds later another nipple exploded. Thankfully I had just
left home so I never had a chance to see if all the nipples were going to
fail in a short period of time. When I went to change the nipples to brass
a majority of the nipples were locked solid to the spokes. It was quite
easy to just crumble each nipple with a pair of pliers.
I think brass nipples have better longevity.
Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late,
the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
lis...@earthlink.net
char...@prodigy.net (Charles Beristain) wrote:
Yes. It was in a message posted a couple of days ago.
It's not much weight difference, but it's rotating weight. <ducking>
Ted Bennett
Mike S.
riding, but have had them disintegrate upon being touched with a spoke
wrench. Like the last post, these were wheels that had been built for a few
years, but had been hanging in the garage.
Since I don't tend to keep equipment more than a few years, the longevity
issue doesn't affect me as much.
"G.T." <eth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:94SN9.916$hp1.54...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Pete Biggs
1. For a compromise for light wheels, how about brass nipples on rear
drive side (for dished wheel), aluminium rest - as it is only those rear
right spokes that have to be extremely tight?
2. (brass nipps) A wheel builder I used recommended 16mm drive side, 12mm
rest. Seems like a good idea. Anyone else do this?
festive cheers
~PB
Paul Southworth
Pete Biggs <ne...@pbiggs2000.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>1. For a compromise for light wheels, how about brass nipples on rear
>drive side (for dished wheel), aluminium rest - as it is only those rear
>right spokes that have to be extremely tight?
It would work better that way but why bother? You could get as
much weight savings by scrubbing your scalp.
>2. (brass nipps) A wheel builder I used recommended 16mm drive side, 12mm
>rest. Seems like a good idea. Anyone else do this?
?! Why bother, all this adds pointless inefficiency to the wheelbuilding
process. Just use long nipples if you like them, there is no shame
in it. If you have extra time to waste building wheels, spend it
on getting them tighter and truer.
--Paul
David Kunz
>>>> Apart from the risk of corrosion, are there any other disadvantages
>>>> in using
>>>> Aliminium alloy nipples instead of nickel plated brass?
>>>
>>>
> Paul Southworth wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Yes you can't get them as tight, they fail more easily (ie,
>>> cracking a nipple or just cheesing off the flats with a spoke
>>> wrench), and they cost more.
>
>
> A well intentioned person repeated a commonly misunderstood issue:
>
>> And, the corrode to the spoke (dissimilar metals) making it impossible
>> to retrue if they need a touch-up or the rim takes a big side hit
>> (like a branch wedged in the spokes :)).
>
>
> Dissimilar metals are actually _less_ likely to cold weld together,
> that's why better quality camera lenses use aluminum/brass/aluminum
> helicoids for focussing.
>
> In any case, nickel-plated brass is also a dissimilar metal to all kinds
> of spokes.
Interesting. I was told that my problem with the alloy nipples locking
to the spokes was dissimilar metals. Maybe the reason is wrong, but
I've had bad luck with alloy nipples. As you said, I can initially get
them plenty tight using a 4 sided spoke wrench (I have a really nice DT
that my LBS sold me cheap because someone ordered an "extra"). But,
enough of them corrode / cold weld to the spoke that I can't retrue the
rim after 6 months or so. To be fair, this is on a mountain bike that
sees lots of miles including water crossings and I ride rain or shine --
it also sees alot of road miles too (I can only afford one bike -- I've
done some 130+ mile rides on it :)).
David
Qui si parla Campagnolo
>drive side (for dished wheel), aluminium rest - as it is only those rear
>right spokes that have to be extremely tight?
On a well built wheelset, the front spoke tesnion should be the same as the
right side rear.
A Muzi
news:au93tc$5eqni$1...@ID-144931.news.dfncis.de...
Although I admit I like the vintage look of long nipples on some vintage
wheels, what does a 16mm nipple do better? The thread depth on the inside
is the same so aside from the aesthetic I don't see any reason to use a long
or a short one.
This is what nipples look like in cross section:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/NIPPLES.JPG
--
Andrew Muzi
Pete Biggs
> >1. For a compromise for light wheels, how about brass nipples on rear
> >drive side (for dished wheel), aluminium rest - as it is only those
rear
> >right spokes that have to be extremely tight?
>
> It would work better that way but why bother?
It's an idea for those who do bother (and they will carry on bothering
regardless of the scorn they get). I haven't bothered to use al nipps at
all yet but might do if I was convinced they'd work ok and wanted to save
a few grams. But I would always use brass for rear right because I've even
rounded off brass ones (with a Spokey).
> You could get as
> much weight savings by scrubbing your scalp.
>
> >2. (brass nipps) A wheel builder I used recommended 16mm drive side,
12mm
> >rest. Seems like a good idea. Anyone else do this?
>
> ?! Why bother, all this adds pointless inefficiency to the wheelbuilding
> process. Just use long nipples if you like them, there is no shame
> in it. If you have extra time to waste building wheels, spend it
> on getting them tighter and truer.
It hardly takes more time to use odd nipples. The shorter ones are
cheaper and lighter so I would use them where they would work fine (ie.
rear left & front, imo). The longer nipples can be tightened better with
some spoke wrenches (even if they're not stronger?).
~PB
Pete Biggs
> Pete->1. For a compromise for light wheels, how about brass nipples on
rear
> >drive side (for dished wheel), aluminium rest - as it is only those
rear
> >right spokes that have to be extremely tight?
>
> On a well built wheelset, the front spoke tesnion should be the same as
the
> right side rear.
Front wheel doesn't have to carry so much weight and gets a much eaier
life. Also, I thought rear right spokes have to take extra strain than
fronts because of the dish. I have my rear right spokes as tight as I can
get them (without busting anything). I don't think this is necessary or
desirable for the front. Just my current opinion.
~PB
Bikefixr
side spokes thay can start to pop the heads off quite fast. I prefer the DT's-I
feel they are a bit tougher than the Wheelsmiths. But generally-I use them on
the front and the non-drive rear. On the drive I use Brass Wheelsmith
exclusively and haven't had one fail in 10 years. We're talking thousands of
wheels-but alloy does fail a lot easier. But they look cool, shave a few g's.
They are a bit tougher to build high-tensioned wheels with as rounding the
flats can be an issue, but a good builder shouldn't have a problem.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
We don't have to mimic all the vagaries of British English as in "set
theory" where most things with more than one part are "sets" as in
"trainset" for a locomotive and cars. The same goes for "alloy",
which is not just aluminum as the Britts would have you believe but
rather most metals such as brass, steels, aluminum, and so forth.
Aluminum (copper, Cu, Mn, Si, Mg, Zn alloy) nipples, in contrast to
brass (copper-zinc alloy) are less durable but lets not confuse the
term alloy with aluminum.
Brass:
http://sisa-brazing.com/english/products/brass.shtml
Aluminum:
http://www.luskmetals.com/basic_alloy.html
Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
Just zis Guy, you know?
wrote:
> The same goes for "alloy",
>which is not just aluminum as the Britts would have you believe but
>rather most metals such as brass, steels, aluminum, and so forth.
Depends which Brit you ask. Since many metals are not used in their
pure form in manufactured goods, arguably the word "alloy" should be
banished to outer darkness - but then I once wrote to the Royal Mail
to ask them to stop expressing weight in Kelvin gramme seconds.
I would never try to distinguish brass from aluminium by calling
either one "alloy" - the only context (of which I'm aware anyway)
where "alloy" is used as a synonym for "aluminium alloy" is as an
alternative to steel - as in "alloy head" for a car with a steel block
and aluminium alloy head, or "alloy rims" for a bike with aluminium
rims.
But Your Brits May Vary :-)
Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old
mail addresses may no longer work. Apologies.
Norm
I haven't heard such terminology in years.
Norm
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote in message news:<2O7Q9.57837$Ik.19...@typhoon.sonic.net>...
Bluto
> Dissimilar metals are actually _less_ likely to cold weld together,
> that's why better quality camera lenses use aluminum/brass/aluminum
> helicoids for focussing.
>
> In any case, nickel-plated brass is also a dissimilar metal to all kinds
> of spokes.
With aluminum/stainless joints, the issue is not cold welding, but
galvanic corrosion. Ask any wire rope & sling professional-- you'll
find that aluminum crimp sleeves are suitable for zinc-plated steel
cable, but for stainless cable copper crimps are recommended. The
electrolysis across an aluminum/stainless joint causes decomposition
of the alloys with time and exposure to the elements.
It's not cold welding, but it can stick spoke nipples tight just the
same, and without any sliding friction to precipitate it.
Chalo Colina
Pete Biggs
> We don't have to mimic all the vagaries of British English as in "set
> theory" where most things with more than one part are "sets" as in
> "trainset" for a locomotive and cars.
I've only ever heard the word "trainset" used to describe toy and model
railway sets (track + locos & cars, the whole kit). Brits do not call
trains "trainsets"! However, we still often call a television a "TV set".
I first saw the word "wheelset" on American newsgroups. It's a "pair of
wheels" for me.
Happy new year
~Vague Pete :)
Just zis Guy, you know?
<pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:
>I've only ever heard the word "trainset" used to describe toy and model
>railway sets
Well, the train weenies do apparently use "set" to describe something
like the Virgin Voyager, as in "five-car set," but this is certainly
not in common usage. Maybe friend Jobst is hanging out with train
spotters?
Just zis Guy, you know?
British contraction "ally" (pronounced as in McBeal) and mistaken it
for a mis-spelling of alloy.
Peter Serjeant
<guy.c...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Well, the train weenies do apparently use "set" to describe something
>like the Virgin Voyager, as in "five-car set," but this is certainly
>not in common usage. Maybe friend Jobst is hanging out with train
>spotters?
Um..quite! take a look at these........
http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/grd_loco.html
http://steamcad.railfan.net/jobst.htm
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Dissimilar metals are actually _less_ likely to cold weld together,
>> that's why better quality camera lenses use aluminum/brass/aluminum
>> helicoids for focusing.
>> In any case, nickel-plated brass is also a dissimilar metal to all
>> kinds of spokes.
> With aluminum/stainless joints, the issue is not cold welding, but
> galvanic corrosion. Ask any wire rope & sling professional-- you'll
> find that aluminum crimp sleeves are suitable for zinc-plated steel
> cable, but for stainless cable copper crimps are recommended. The
> electrolysis across an aluminum/stainless joint causes decomposition
> of the alloys with time and exposure to the elements.
Let's not get static and dynamic contacts confused. The applications
of camera lenses and similar applications are not without lubrication
and corrosion is completely out of the picture. What should not be
overlooked is that "cold welding" is a a misnomer as inaccurate as
"dry rot". Dry rot is discovered when dry, but it is a sopping wet
process. Similarly cold welding occurs at fusion temperatures of the
metals involved, only that it occurs from heat generated at the
sliding interface at microscopic asperities making contact in spite of
lubricants at times. Materials like stainless steels weld because
they are insulators and readily rise to high temperatures at sliding
contacts. Drilling stainless steel is a classic example.
> It's not cold welding, but it can stick spoke nipples tight just the
> same, and without any sliding friction to precipitate it.
With pressures as high as spoke threads carry, lubrication is
essential. If the spokes are tight, water cannot penetrate through
lubrication in the thread that is usually covered by a microscopic
meniscus of oily dust at the entrance. The main problem with aluminum
nipples is heads popping off, involving neither lubrication,
corrosion, nor "cold" welding.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> We don't have to mimic all the vagaries of British English as in "set
>> theory" where most things with more than one part are "sets" as in
>> "trainset" for a locomotive and cars.
> I've only ever heard the word "trainset" used to describe toy and model
> railway sets (track + locos & cars, the whole kit). Brits do not call
> trains "trainsets"! However, we still often call a television a "TV set".
> I first saw the word "wheelset" on American newsgroups. It's a "pair of
> wheels" for me.
I think you don't read RGI (Railway Gazette International) the trade
journal for world railways, published in GB. THat an the many bicycle
and other trade jopurnals originating in GB are full of "set theory".
Set theory:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
http://www.railwaygazette.com/index.asp
http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/formations.html
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Trainset
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Um..quite! take a look at these........
> http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/grd_loco.html
> http://steamcad.railfan.net/jobst.htm
and there aren't even any supple tires and titanium stems or Rolf
wheels involved, however, there are other more significant pictures on
the locomotive site to be appreciated when downloading CAD drawings.
The details are not visible in the previews:
http://steamcad.railfan.net/bigboy.htm
Pete Biggs
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:fh5R9.58774$Ik.19...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Pete Biggs <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> writes:
>
> >> We don't have to mimic all the vagaries of British English as in "set
> >> theory" where most things with more than one part are "sets" as in
> >> "trainset" for a locomotive and cars.
>
> > I've only ever heard the word "trainset" used to describe toy and
model
> > railway sets (track + locos & cars, the whole kit). Brits do not call
> > trains "trainsets"! However, we still often call a television a "TV
set".
/snip
> http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/formations.html
Oh dear. I hope it doesn't catch on in common parlance!
~PB
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I've only ever heard the word "trainset" used to describe toy and
> model railway sets (track + locos & cars, the whole kit). Brits do
> not call trains "trainsets"! However, we still often call a
> television a "TV set".
That's passe', today its a TV but to make up for that:
stairs = stairway
road = roadway
rain = rain storm system
showers = shower conditions
crowded = over crowded
majority = overwhelming majority (aka most)
in ancient times, these were called "gilding the lily"
Just as annoying is "enhanced" English where words are emotionally
charged with gratuitous modifiers or by begging the question as in
sentences that start with "the fact that" when trying to establish a
fact. Preceding a modifier with "very" (or other pseudo superlatives)
puts emphasis on "very" while the modifier is lost in the noise
leaving a void in the description. Simpler language is more
convincing, while complex language exposes doubt and uncertainty.
It's all a big word set.
Paul Butler
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message news:5o9R9.58828
> Preceding a modifier with "very" (or other pseudo superlatives)
> puts emphasis on "very" while the modifier is lost in the noise
> leaving a void in the description.
From http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~widenius/clemens.html, Mark Twain wrote:
"Substitute 'damn' every time you're inclined to write 'very'; your
editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be."
Just zis Guy, you know?
Serjeant) wrote:
>http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/grd_loco.html
>http://steamcad.railfan.net/jobst.htm
Ah, that explains a lot.