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Tire-Making - Misguided Ramblings and A Thought Experiment You Can Vote On
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Doug Cimperman
Nov 9, 2012, 1:24:56 PM11/9/12
to
Concerning radials, bias-ply tires and What Lies Beyond :o
------
The fundamental question here is (assuming the tread is thin and evenly
applied) do typical bicycle tires all inflate to perfect circular cross
sections, where they are free of the rim edges?
Consider a theoretical clincher tire that is a radial, with the threads
crossing perpendicular to the tire. Each thread (which makes a complete
crossing of the tire casing) cuts a perfect circle around the tube, as
that would be the shortest path. And there are no other threads in other
directions to redistribute stresses, so a radial clincher will inflate
to a 'perfect' circular cross-section.
Now consider a typical bias-ply bicycle clincher, with the bias set at
45°. The threads are perpendicular to each other so it will resist
inflation pressure equally in circumference as well as laterally--but
the path that any single thread follows is not circular. The thread's
path is a slightly-flattened oval, wider than it is taller.... Is the
tire's cross-section still circular, or is it a
slightly-laterally-flattened oval?
Now.... consider a bicycle tire that has a casing with a bias WAY more
than 45°..... say, 75°. The threads are no longer perpendicular to each
other, and are very resistant to circumferential stress, but not lateral
stress. Will this tire inflate to a circular cross-section, or an oval?
Cast your votes
------
The fundamental question here is (assuming the tread is thin and evenly
applied) do typical bicycle tires all inflate to perfect circular cross
sections, where they are free of the rim edges?
Consider a theoretical clincher tire that is a radial, with the threads
crossing perpendicular to the tire. Each thread (which makes a complete
crossing of the tire casing) cuts a perfect circle around the tube, as
that would be the shortest path. And there are no other threads in other
directions to redistribute stresses, so a radial clincher will inflate
to a 'perfect' circular cross-section.
Now consider a typical bias-ply bicycle clincher, with the bias set at
45°. The threads are perpendicular to each other so it will resist
inflation pressure equally in circumference as well as laterally--but
the path that any single thread follows is not circular. The thread's
path is a slightly-flattened oval, wider than it is taller.... Is the
tire's cross-section still circular, or is it a
slightly-laterally-flattened oval?
Now.... consider a bicycle tire that has a casing with a bias WAY more
than 45°..... say, 75°. The threads are no longer perpendicular to each
other, and are very resistant to circumferential stress, but not lateral
stress. Will this tire inflate to a circular cross-section, or an oval?
Cast your votes
datakoll
Nov 10, 2012, 7:13:58 PM11/10/12
to
eyeyyehahahha no way Dude ! tires inflate to rim form.
Doug Cimperman
Nov 11, 2012, 8:49:42 AM11/11/12
to
On 11/10/2012 6:13 PM, datakoll wrote:
> eyeyyehahahha no way Dude ! tires inflate to rim form.
>
???
> eyeyyehahahha no way Dude ! tires inflate to rim form.
>
I said cross-section, like this-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sezione_cerchione_bicicletta.svg
-and not including the tire beads. All the casing/tire that is not
touching the beads.
In such diagrams the inflated tire is always drawn circular but I
suspect it is not really, except with a radial tire. And that could
possibly be a good thing....
DirtRoadie
Nov 11, 2012, 9:25:57 AM11/11/12
to
On Nov 9, 11:24 am, Doug Cimperman <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> Concerning radials, bias-ply tires and What Lies Beyond :o
> ------
>
> The fundamental question here is (assuming the tread is thin and evenly
> applied) do typical bicycle tires all inflate to perfect circular cross
> sections, where they are free of the rim edges?
>
> Consider a theoretical clincher tire that is a radial, with the threads
> crossing perpendicular to the tire. Each thread (which makes a complete
> crossing of the tire casing) cuts a perfect circle around the tube, as
> that would be the shortest path. And there are no other threads in other
> directions to redistribute stresses, so a radial clincher will inflate
> to a 'perfect' circular cross-section.
>
> Now consider a typical bias-ply bicycle clincher, with the bias set at
> 45 . The threads are perpendicular to each other so it will resist
> inflation pressure equally in circumference as well as laterally--but
> the path that any single thread follows is not circular. The thread's
> path is a slightly-flattened oval, wider than it is taller.... Is the
> tire's cross-section still circular, tr is it a
> Concerning radials, bias-ply tires and What Lies Beyond :o
> ------
>
> The fundamental question here is (assuming the tread is thin and evenly
> applied) do typical bicycle tires all inflate to perfect circular cross
> sections, where they are free of the rim edges?
>
> Consider a theoretical clincher tire that is a radial, with the threads
> crossing perpendicular to the tire. Each thread (which makes a complete
> crossing of the tire casing) cuts a perfect circle around the tube, as
> that would be the shortest path. And there are no other threads in other
> directions to redistribute stresses, so a radial clincher will inflate
> to a 'perfect' circular cross-section.
>
> Now consider a typical bias-ply bicycle clincher, with the bias set at
> 45 . The threads are perpendicular to each other so it will resist
> inflation pressure equally in circumference as well as laterally--but
> the path that any single thread follows is not circular. The thread's
> path is a slightly-flattened oval, wider than it is taller.... Is the
> slightly-laterally-flattened oval?
>
> Now.... consider a bicycle tire that has a casing with a bias WAY more
> than 45 ..... say, 75 . The threads are no longer perpendicular to each
> other, and are very resistant to circumferential stress, but not lateral
> stress. Will this tire inflate to a circular cross-section, or an oval?
>
> Cast your votes
To add a point of observation, in a radial casing with (theoretically)
>
> Now.... consider a bicycle tire that has a casing with a bias WAY more
> than 45 ..... say, 75 . The threads are no longer perpendicular to each
> other, and are very resistant to circumferential stress, but not lateral
> stress. Will this tire inflate to a circular cross-section, or an oval?
>
> Cast your votes
non-elastic circumferential threads, the cross section _could_ be
flattened by constraint of the tire's circumference by the those
threads. Like adding an additional set of "beads" in the center of the
tread. But I don't envision that happening with threads running bead-
to-bead even with a very large longitudinal component.
In others words, I vote circular.
DR
Has your experimentation provided an insight into the has
Doug Cimperman
Nov 11, 2012, 2:12:31 PM11/11/12
to
DirtRoadie
Nov 11, 2012, 3:09:58 PM11/11/12
to
What I was thinking about was the necessary "scissoring" action of
crossed plies. Or so it would seem.
Envisioning a casing that can be laid flat (a typical "folding" tire)
yet is able to assume an essentially toroidal shape when inflated.
For the flat casing all longitudinal lengths are equal and are the
same as the bead length. But in the inflated tire, any one of those
lengths becomes a circumferential measurement which varies from the
shortest - the length of the bead, to the longest - the center of the
tread.
DR
Doug Cimperman
Nov 11, 2012, 4:45:49 PM11/11/12
to
(inflated) tire, compared to at the bead. This spreading effect is why
woven fabrics cannot be used. They are either woven too tight (too much
friction) to allow this, or they are bonded where there threads cross
(fabrics like leno mesh).
Vintage clincher tires (~100 years ago) were made from flat woven cotton
fabric. I haven't seen it explained what happened to the fabric when
they achieved their final shapes.... The fabric may have been woven
loose to begin with, or maybe the threads just partially
stretched/failed during the final molding stage of manufacturing and
inflation pressures had to be kept low enough not to break what was
left...?
'Cord' tires were universally agreed upon to be a great improvement, and
cord tires were made by hand-winding twine around a former that was
(roughly) in the shape of the desired finished tire. It could well be
that the reason cord tires were more durable was that they didn't start
life with a damaged casing.
AMuzi
Nov 11, 2012, 5:57:32 PM11/11/12
to
All time great tire BTW.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
datakoll
Nov 11, 2012, 6:25:44 PM11/11/12
to
> All time great tire BTW.
Doug Cimperman
Nov 16, 2012, 4:25:29 PM11/16/12
to
On Friday, November 9, 2012 12:24:56 PM UTC-6, Doug Cimperman wrote:
> Concerning radials, bias-ply tires and What Lies Beyond :o
> .....
> Concerning radials, bias-ply tires and What Lies Beyond :o
I did try this, but not very well. I rushed it and made a bunch of pretty sad mistakes. I did get a casing that has (roughly) 60-degree bias threads though. The result when I inflated it onto a rim was that it turned out as round as the radial inflates to.
I may make one more attempt at this in the future; the result doesn't follow what information I had. The casing was VERY poorly made, and I could only put about 10 PSI in it and that may be part of the (observed) problem.
-------
On a related note, Charter is discontinuing their newsgroup service. :\ They said it would shut down November 30, but they seem to have accidentally pulled the plug a couple weeks or so early, which is why I am posting from Google.
What (fee-based) newsgroup services are there that allow filtering by posters? I am not greatly fond of the Google interface and if I gotta pay for something, I don't ever want to see certain posters again....
AMuzi
Nov 16, 2012, 5:08:35 PM11/16/12
to
http://www.eternal-september.org/
And to quote Angel Rodriguez, "Free is a very good price".
Wes Groleau
Nov 16, 2012, 10:12:31 PM11/16/12
to
On 11-16-2012 16:25, Doug Cimperman wrote:
> What (fee-based) newsgroup services are there that allow filtering by posters?
Why do you insist on paying a fee?
> What (fee-based) newsgroup services are there that allow filtering by posters?
And are you not aware that even the worst news clients (clients, not
servers) can block sender? Most do a lot more.
--
Wes Groleau
Alive and Well
http://freepages.religions.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/
Message has been deleted
Doug Cimperman
Nov 17, 2012, 8:10:02 AM11/17/12
to non...@your.biz
On Friday, November 16, 2012 9:12:32 PM UTC-6, Wes Groleau wrote:
>
> Why do you insist on paying a fee?
> And are you not aware that even the worst news clients (clients, not
> servers) can block sender? Most do a lot more.
>
Last time I asked, Thunderbird's would not, unless you used it offline, but then you can't see responses as they are added. And none of the other free ones would, either. So something costs money either way, the service or the reader it seems.
>
> Why do you insist on paying a fee?
> And are you not aware that even the worst news clients (clients, not
> servers) can block sender? Most do a lot more.
>
I have heard of Forte, a long long time ago. Nothing else looks familiar.
Joy Beeson
Nov 17, 2012, 10:40:49 AM11/17/12
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On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:25:29 -0800 (PST), Doug Cimperman
Simply Not Done.
You have to acquire a reader with filters that you can adjust to hide
boring posts. I'm getting by with filters that simply block posts
that meet the criteria I've set, but I'm thinking of buying a new
edition that can also ignore all responses to posts that meet certain
criteria.
Not too seriously, because the last time I "upgraded", the user
interface had been re-arranged with a blender just because it's so
BORING to have words, symbols, and locations mean what they meant last
year.
I get on fairly well by noticing that a branch was started by a post
that came in marked "read", so I haven't enough motivation to learn
how to read news all over again from scratch, or to risk having to do
without features that I've come to rely on.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
<dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> What (fee-based) newsgroup services are there that allow filtering by posters?
Except for clear-cut spam, filtering by poster at the news server is
> What (fee-based) newsgroup services are there that allow filtering by posters?
Simply Not Done.
You have to acquire a reader with filters that you can adjust to hide
boring posts. I'm getting by with filters that simply block posts
that meet the criteria I've set, but I'm thinking of buying a new
edition that can also ignore all responses to posts that meet certain
criteria.
Not too seriously, because the last time I "upgraded", the user
interface had been re-arranged with a blender just because it's so
BORING to have words, symbols, and locations mean what they meant last
year.
I get on fairly well by noticing that a branch was started by a post
that came in marked "read", so I haven't enough motivation to learn
how to read news all over again from scratch, or to risk having to do
without features that I've come to rely on.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
AMuzi
Nov 17, 2012, 11:01:34 AM11/17/12
to
Maybe double check your newsgroup settings/prefernces and
give it another go.
Doug Cimperman
Nov 17, 2012, 3:29:50 PM11/17/12
to
When I say "message filtering", what I mean is this: if I don't like a
poster then I want to NOT see their posts at all. Totally gone from
view. As in, "as if never there at all". I don't want to look at it
marked as anything; I want it gone totally.
If there is any program that can do that to a newsgroup while reading
online, I'd love to hear about it. I just tried it again with
Thunderbird, and it doesn't work. I was told in the past that you could
only do that in Thunderbird if you saved the newsgroup for offline
browsing--which I don't want to do.
The filters work for email, but not newsgroup posts.
-------
Also casing #6 is posted on my web pages.
davethedave
Nov 17, 2012, 3:46:53 PM11/17/12
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:29:50 -0600, Doug Cimperman wrote:
> When I say "message filtering", what I mean is this: if I don't like a
> poster then I want to NOT see their posts at all. Totally gone from
> view. As in, "as if never there at all". I don't want to look at it
> marked as anything; I want it gone totally.
>
> If there is any program that can do that to a newsgroup while reading
> online, I'd love to hear about it. I just tried it again with
> Thunderbird, and it doesn't work. I was told in the past that you could
> only do that in Thunderbird if you saved the newsgroup for offline
> browsing--which I don't want to do.
Run a small news server on your own PC and synch it with Eternal
> When I say "message filtering", what I mean is this: if I don't like a
> poster then I want to NOT see their posts at all. Totally gone from
> view. As in, "as if never there at all". I don't want to look at it
> marked as anything; I want it gone totally.
>
> If there is any program that can do that to a newsgroup while reading
> online, I'd love to hear about it. I just tried it again with
> Thunderbird, and it doesn't work. I was told in the past that you could
> only do that in Thunderbird if you saved the newsgroup for offline
> browsing--which I don't want to do.
September. Filter the posts at server level and then point your news
reader at the local server. :)
On the downside you are using windows so I don't know what will work for
you. :(
--
davethedave
AMuzi
Nov 17, 2012, 3:50:10 PM11/17/12
to
Thunderbird's [T]ools menu for Message [F]ilters.
For example one might reasonably select 'Sender contains
monkey' and when found, action requested is 'delete'. If
that doesn't do it, you might select 'mark as read' on
download so that the normal spacebar toggle to next message
would skip it.
Doug Cimperman
Nov 17, 2012, 4:26:56 PM11/17/12
to
worked. Apparently it only works for messages saved to your own
computer, since it can't "delete" remote messages on news servers.
Doug Cimperman
Nov 17, 2012, 5:08:32 PM11/17/12
to
At the bottom is a drop-down box for the newsgroups, and that setting
doesn't stay set all the time.... When it's set to a single newsgroup it
works, but not when it flips back to the newsgroup server. :|
AMuzi
Nov 17, 2012, 5:58:11 PM11/17/12
to
is that they apply to incoming items as received, that is,
your present display ('messages dated before just now')
won't change when you apply new rules for filter settings.
Maybe someone who uses these functions regularly could
comment on that.
Wes Groleau
Nov 17, 2012, 8:48:07 PM11/17/12
to
On 11-17-2012 15:29, Doug Cimperman wrote:
> what I mean is this: if I don't like a poster then I want to NOT see
> their posts at all
Thunderbird is what I use.
> what I mean is this: if I don't like a poster then I want to NOT see
> their posts at all
Tools->Message filters.
Define the criteria (From contains whatever)
Response: "Delete" to keep from seeing them and
"mark as read" to keep Thunderbird from telling you in the sidebar that
there are posts you haven't read when the title pane doesn't show them.
--
Wes Groleau
After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed
all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him
three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, “That preacher
said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to
stay with you guys."
Wes Groleau
Nov 17, 2012, 8:49:06 PM11/17/12
to
On 11-17-2012 15:46, davethedave wrote:
> Run a small news server on your own PC and synch it with Eternal
> September. Filter the posts at server level and then point your news
> reader at the local server.:)
Overkill. See my Thunderbird solution.
> Run a small news server on your own PC and synch it with Eternal
> September. Filter the posts at server level and then point your news
> reader at the local server.:)
--
Wes Groleau
Words of the Wild Wes
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.org/WWW
John B.
Nov 17, 2012, 11:37:56 PM11/17/12
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 05:10:02 -0800 (PST), Doug Cimperman
There are a number of free USENET providers and Forte still gives away
an earlier version of Agent that works well. Or you can use one of the
other free USENET news readers.
--
Cheers,
John B.
an earlier version of Agent that works well. Or you can use one of the
other free USENET news readers.
--
Cheers,
John B.
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