Indurain and Doping
B. Lafferty
forum somewhere on the web; where I don't know.\
--------------------------------------------------
Jacques Anquetil once said "the Tour de France is not won on mineral water
alone". Eddie Merckx failed three drug tests: 1969 Giro di Italia,
(Reactivan) DQed; 30 day suspension 1973 Tour of Lombardie, (Ephedrine);
DQed from race 1977 Fleche Wallone, (Permoline).
Sabino Padilla's paper on Indurain's 1996 Hour Record offers some very
compelling evidence of systematic doping by the cycling's top stars. Padilla
provides documented data on the physical characteristics of Merckx, Moser,
Obree, Indurain, Rominger and Boardman:
Cyclist Distance Date Mass, kg CX, m2 Power, W
Merckx 49.432 10/25/1972 72 0.2618 380
Moser 51.151 1/21/1984 76 0.2481 400
Obree 52.713 4/27/1994 71 0.172 359
Indurain 53.04 9/2/1994 81 0.2441 510
Rominger 55.291 11/5/1994 65 0.1932 456
Boardman 56.375 9/6/1996 69 0.1838 462
His primary conclusion was that even in an aero position, Indurain's large
body presented much more resistance than the others, accept for Merckx and
Moser who did not employ aerobars, although Moser's bicycle and position
were radical in 1984. The use of aerodymanic equipment and position has
obscured the fact that something else is going on.
When normalized for power to weight ratio, the following is obtained:
Cyclist W/Kg
Merckx 5.3
Moser 5.3
Obree 5.1
Indurain 6.3
Rominger 7.0
Boardman 6.7
Both Merckx and Moser set their records at altitude in Mexico City, which at
8000 feet would present about a 10% power loss. Hence, Merckx and Moser's
sea-level power was around 5.8 W/Kg, 9% less than Indurain, 15.5% less than
Boardman, and 21% less than Rominger. Only the amateur Obree has a
power-weight ratio consistent with Merckx and Moser, and by employing a
radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
manipulation when setting their records.
Stu Fleming
> radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
> that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
> manipulation when setting their records.
Rominger, yes.
Indurain and Boardman, no.
Obree, certainly not.
B. Lafferty
"Stu Fleming" <ste...@wic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:44ace2df$1...@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
Rominger and Obree I agree with you 100%. Indurain is suspect and Boardman
I don't know what to think.
Kurgan Gringioni
Dumbass -
If you're gonna infer doping from results, then Boardman is a very big
one. The 4:11 individual pursuit is incredibly absurd, Superman
position notwithstanding.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
B. Lafferty
"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgrin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152183874....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I don't think the author was inferring doping from just results but from the
resulting analysis of wattage output. The issue is whether or not the
analysis and extrapolation are reasonable.
Donald Munro
> I don't think the author was inferring doping from just results but from the
> resulting analysis of wattage output. The issue is whether or not the
> analysis and extrapolation are reasonable.
Shouldn't we use the Vayer as a unit of power in this case ?
B. Lafferty
"Donald Munro" <fat-d...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44acf266$0$30719$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com...
were being analyzed as Vayer did. Then you just have to believe in the
tooth fairy.
Robert Chung
> I don't think the author was inferring doping from just results but
> from the resulting analysis of wattage output. The issue is whether or
> not the analysis and extrapolation are reasonable.
The table in the material you quoted was Table 2 from Padilla's paper. A
weakness of that paper for this particular purpose is that the power
estimate depends mightily on estimates of Cd and A. They measured Cd for
Moser and Indurain, but the Cd's for all of the rest, and the A's for
everyone including Moser and Indurain, were estimated.
Robert Chung
And ignore wind and air density.
Jonathan v.d. Sluis
I find it difficult to believe Indurain didn't use EPO at a time when it
was effectively tolerated (and, according to a recent article I read on a
dutch newssite, not even illegal).
raa...@hotmail.com
The thing about using these comparative values is that it is assuming
the subject's physiology are equal; in that the power/weight ratio are
used as the unit to compare different riders; I argue that some people
are natuarlly better than others, not as a power/weight ratio but other
factors including bio-mechanics, muscle composition, pain threshold
etc. You are assuming that Merckx was a better natural cyclist than say
Rominger and because the power/ weight ratio appears greater for
Rominger you say he doped for his Hour. Just because a technology
existed that could be applied does not necessitate that it was.
Similarily, you cannot say because Merkx won more races in his day, or
that Indurain won 5 straught TdFs, Rominger none, he is the basis which
we will compare the riders. More specifically, in the case with
Boardman and Obree; we can generally agree that Obree, given his simple
and relatively poor background certainly did not dope for his 2 Hour
records- yet he did not work out in the pro-peleton, whereas Merkx won
far more races than all the others put together and that because of
that he is generally regarded as the best natural rider and therefore
his power/weight numbers provide the yardstick by which you say someone
elses is an aberation, therefore x must be doping. Boardman had lots of
specified training under the direction of Peter Keen- is it not
possible that Boardmans specified training and his mentallity are more
key to his Hour record than the effects of blood doping ?
Razorback
> I don't think the author was inferring doping from just results but from the
> resulting analysis of wattage output.
In other words, from results.
B. Lafferty
"Razorback" <razorb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152193898.9...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Result is simply distance and time. He uses a number of other factors to
compute watts per kg.
Razorback
> Result is simply distance and time. He uses a number of other factors to
> compute watts per kg.
You're trying to change the subject. The subject is not how watts per
kg are computed, it's whether someone doped, and what the evidence is.
You're claiming that doping is responsible for Indurain's wattage.
Maybe Indurain was just a REALLY GOOD CYCLIST and that's why he
produced high wattage.
excel_...@hotmail.com
Indurain would be clean and everyone else wasn't? As for Boardman, I
was told on the down low that he was adverse to EPO, but he found that
his bone density hurt his climbing (ie, added masses you can't easily
lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.
I'd say the only dude not doping was Obree.
CH
B. Lafferty
Be a good boy, and I'll send the tooth fairy to your house tonight.
aco...@earthlink.net
> One can only conclude
> that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
> manipulation when setting their records.
Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...
You do realize that Padilla was forced to *estimate* the actual
performance power of all those hour record holders,? IOW, none of them
rode with a powermeter, and for only two of them (i.e., Boardman and
Indurain) is enough other information (e.g., CdA) available to make
anything other than a WAG.
Andy Coggan
aco...@earthlink.net
> As for Boardman, I
> was told on the down low that he was adverse to EPO, but he found that
> his bone density hurt his climbing (ie, added masses you can't easily
> lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
> sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
> osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
> osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.
Gee, then I must be a doper, 'cause at age 47 I'm osteopenic, bordering
on osteoporotic.
(Then again, that's not all that surprising when you actually look at
the scientific literature on the subject of bone mineral density and
long-term participation in cycling...but hey, why let a few *facts*
stand in the way of a provactive post to r.b.r., eh?).
BTW, I don't think it can be said that Boardman was forced to retire
due to his low bone mineral density, any more than it can be said that
Lemond was forced to retire due to some mysterious mitochondrial
myopathy...
Andy Coggan
Stu Fleming
> lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
> sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
> osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
> osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.
Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I posted. But you still have
to consider that, at the time of his retirement, Boardman would have
trained intensively for nearly 20 years on a track regime. The
suggestion there is that increased blood acidity as a result leeched
calcium from his bones.
B. Lafferty
<aco...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1152210608.7...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
riders climbing, but he did the best he could. BTW, are you and your bud
Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris Carmichael.
Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.
Sandy
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>
>
>> One can only conclude
>> that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
>> manipulation when setting their records.
>>
>
> Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...
He's already noted as that in the FAQ.
B. Lafferty
Simon Brooke
('ste...@wic.co.nz') wrote:
Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
The trouble with Simon is that he only opens his mouth to change feet.
;; of me, by a 'friend'
Simon Brooke
('m...@address.invalid') wrote:
Also, people (still) underestimate Obree. Yes, his training methods are
eccentric in the extreme (he still races around here, mainly time
trials, on beaten-up looking home made bikes, and can be seen
occasionally, out on the road, training at improbable speeds), but he's
no fool and he's obsessive to an extreme degree. He may not have had a
wind tunnel, but both the aero positions he devised for his hour record
attempts were developed very carefully over long periods of tweaking and
testing, tweaking and testing.
The table quoted in the OP shows Obree the lowest powered, by a
substantial margin; but I wouldn't be surprised if his power output were
really still lower. Obree isn't physically exceptional, as a person.
He's mentally exceptional. He will put himself through torture other
people simply wouldn't, and he will contort his body into positions
other people would find too uncomfortable to maintain; and he will drive
himself to his absolute physical limits. But he doesn't give the
impression, the way lots of other cyclists do, of extreme physical
strength.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; First they came for the asylum seekers,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not an asylum seeker.
;; Then they came for the gypsies,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not a gypsy...
;; Pastor Martin Niemöller, translated by Michael Howard.
Simon Brooke
> More specifically, in the case with
> Boardman and Obree; we can generally agree that Obree, given his simple
> and relatively poor background certainly did not dope for his 2 Hour
> records- yet he did not work out in the pro-peleton,
That's a canard. Obree was sacked from his team because he refused to
dope. He's very much an individualist, but the reason he 'didn't work
out' was because his director sportif wanted to deduct a substantial
chunk of Obree's salary to pay for dope which he (Obree) didn't want and
didn't see why he should pay for.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.
aco...@earthlink.net
> <aco...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1152210608.7...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > B. Lafferty wrote:
> >
> >> One can only conclude
> >> that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of
> >> hematocrit
> >> manipulation when setting their records.
> >
> > Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...
> >
> > You do realize that Padilla was forced to *estimate* the actual
> > performance power of all those hour record holders,? IOW, none of them
> > rode with a powermeter, and for only two of them (i.e., Boardman and
> > Indurain) is enough other information (e.g., CdA) available to make
> > anything other than a WAG.
> >
> > Andy Coggan
> >
> Of course those were estimated. It's obviously much easier to compare
> riders climbing, but he did the best he could.
I'm not saying that he didn't, only that somebody would be foolish to
rely on such estimates as proof of doping.
> BTW, are you and your bud
> Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
> continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
> butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris Carmichael.
> Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.
Uh, what does the fate of Armstrong's reputation have to do with me?
I've never met the man, nor have I ever published anything about him.
For that matter, I don't see how the fact that Ed has done both things
would ever lead to "reality biting him on the butt".
Andy Coggan (who is really more qualified to conduct doping tests than
he is to teach gym)
aco...@earthlink.net
> Boardman 56.375 9/6/1996 69 0.1838 462
BTW, Boardman's own coach (i.e., Peter Keen) has provided an estimate
for Boardman's hour power that is 20 W less, i.e., 442 W. This is based
upon knowing his power-velocity relationship from extensive testing
using an SRM crank. At a mass of 69 kg, this makes his power/mass for 1
to be 6.40 W/kg, and it is this value that I've used to establish the
top row of the "functional threshold power" column in the power
profiling table described here:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/profile.asp
Andy Coggan
B. Lafferty
"Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:km10o3-...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
His book Flying Scotsman is one of the best sporting autobiographies ever
written. Good insight into the nature of competition and mental frailty as
well as competitive mental strength.
B. Lafferty
> in message <44ace2df$1...@news2.actrix.gen.nz>, Stu Fleming
> ('ste...@wic.co.nz') wrote:
>
>> B. Lafferty wrote:
>>
>>> radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only
>>> conclude that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type
>>> of hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.
>>
>> Rominger, yes.
>> Indurain and Boardman, no.
>> Obree, certainly not.
>
> Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
> sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!
Can you please explain what Marmite is?
Stu Fleming
> "Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:kt00o3-...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>>sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!
>
>
> Can you please explain what Marmite is?
Marmite is the British equivalent of thermite.
Vegemite is the Australian version manufactured under licence.
aco...@earthlink.net
> are you and your bud
> Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
> continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
> butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris Carmichael.
> Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.
Just so I understand your logic (and I use that term loosely) here:
1) because Padilla's estimates of the power of recent hour record
holders suggest that they generated more power than Merckx, and
2) because I did my PhD under someone who subsequently tested Armstrong
on various occasions and wrote a scientific article about his findings,
then:
1) many of the hour record holders since Merckx must have doped, and
2) my reputation will suffer when (if) it is ultimately shown that
Armstrong doped.
We've already covered the fallacies underlying your 1 -> 1 and 2 -> 2
links, but there's also the fact that you're guilty of contradicting
yourself. That is, if conclusion #1 and #2 are correct, then postulate
#1 can't be, because Padilla's estimates aren't to be trusted since he
worked with Indurain, who based on your conclusion #1 is a doper. Ergo,
conclusions #1 and #2 can't both be correct.
Andy Coggan (who probably outscored Brian on the LSAT exam)
b...@mambo.ucolick.org
> Just so I understand your logic (and I use that term loosely) here:
> 1) because Padilla's estimates of the power of recent hour record
> holders suggest that they generated more power than Merckx, and
> ...
> 1) many of the hour record holders since Merckx must have doped, and
> ...
> Andy Coggan (who probably outscored Brian on the LSAT exam)
Ah-ha! Exceeding the Lafferty Line ... proof that you
doped for the LSAT.
raa...@hotmail.com
That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?
raa...@hotmail.com
Simon Brooke wrote:
>> The table quoted in the OP shows Obree the lowest powered, by a
> substantial margin; but I wouldn't be surprised if his power output were
> really still lower. Obree isn't physically exceptional, as a person.
> He's mentally exceptional. He will put himself through torture other
> people simply wouldn't, and he will contort his body into positions
> other people would find too uncomfortable to maintain; and he will drive
> himself to his absolute physical limits. But he doesn't give the
> impression, the way lots of other cyclists do, of extreme physical
> strength.
>
> --
> si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
> ;; First they came for the asylum seekers,
> ;; and I did not speak out because I was not an asylum seeker.
> ;; Then they came for the gypsies,
> ;; and I did not speak out because I was not a gypsy...
> ;; Pastor Martin Niemöller, translated by Michael Howard.
That's pretty much what I was getting at in my original post, not just
Obree but anyone, you can't say an aberation of power/weight ratio
means doping.
B. Lafferty
<aco...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1152218426.0...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
opinion as to it in this thread. As to your conclusions; (1) most probably;
(2) doubtful, but you will have to eat some Vayer here at rbr.
BTW, as Dr. Dope points out:
Fuentes, who added that his treatments also concerned other sports than
cycling (football, tennis, athletics), said that it was possible to ride the
Tour de France without "medical" help, but not at that speed. "You just
can't ride four of these mountain stages successively at that speed, it's
very harmful," he said, adding that in his opinion it was more dangerous for
a cyclist to start the Tour de France with a hematocrit level of 31 percent,
than one of 51 percent - even though this meant that the rider would be
excluded from competition.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul06news4
B. Lafferty
<raa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152221506.9...@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
book being published.
Simon Brooke
A strongly flavoured, dark coloured savoury comestible loved by the
British and hated by everyone else: the British equivalent of miso soup,
or gravadlax.
And with no performance enhancing powers at all, unlike marmalade.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]
Carl Sundquist
"Stu Fleming" <ste...@wic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:44ad5b7e$1...@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
Nitpicking here, but he was born in 1968, retired in 1999. Even if he
maintained a track regime until his retirement, you're saying he trained
intensively sufficient to cause blood acidity to leech calcium from his
bones before he reached puberty.
Stu Fleming
> That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?
>
Cycle Sport / Cycling Weekly c 1994.
That's precisely the story I heard.
RonSonic
It's all dope?
Some guys don't train harder than others? Nobody benefits from better genetics?
No rider pushes himself further in a race?
Ron
raa...@hotmail.com
I recall reading the same sources, and as I recall, Obree felt the
teams training regime conflicted with his own training methods; I think
he deliberatly missed 2 training sessions after which he was sacked
from the team. Nothing about doping.
raa...@hotmail.com
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> ">
> Nitpicking here, but he was born in 1968, retired in 1999. Even if he
> maintained a track regime until his retirement, you're saying he trained
> intensively sufficient to cause blood acidity to leech calcium from his
> bones before he reached puberty.
Retired at 31 ? Lucky bastard. Why do I have to work ?
b...@mambo.ucolick.org
> > Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
> > sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!
>
> Can you please explain what Marmite is?
It's the original British WMD, invented during the Great War
(WW I to you) to counter the Boche's mustard gas and phosgene.
The British control of Marmite mines in their dependencies
was partially responsible for the prolongation of their empire
(Ignore all that guff about sea power.) However, Italian
intelligence has recently learned that Kim Jong Il sought
significant quantities of Marmite from Africa.
Chris BeHanna
Absent other evidence, I don't think this is conclusive. From what I've
read, on a hot day, a cyclist can lose as much as 200mg of calcium per
hour from sweat alone. Take a pro, who trains about 6 hours or so per
day, and that's 1200mg. Baseline RDA is 1000mg. How many elite
cyclists do you know who make sure they get 2200mg of calcium every day?
Even if Boardman got the RDA every day, he was suffering a deficit of
1200mg of calcium, day in and day out. That comes from *somewhere*.
--
Chris BeHanna
'03 Specialized Allez Elite 27
'04 Specialized Hardrock Pro Disc
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Carl Sundquist
"Chris BeHanna" <ch...@behanna.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.07.07....@behanna.org...
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 07:54:37 +1200, Stu Fleming wrote:
>
>> excel_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
>>> sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
>>> osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
>>> osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.
>>
>> Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I posted. But you still have
>> to consider that, at the time of his retirement, Boardman would have
>> trained intensively for nearly 20 years on a track regime. The
>> suggestion there is that increased blood acidity as a result leeched
>> calcium from his bones.
>
> Absent other evidence, I don't think this is conclusive. From what I've
> read, on a hot day, a cyclist can lose as much as 200mg of calcium per
> hour from sweat alone. Take a pro, who trains about 6 hours or so per
> day, and that's 1200mg. Baseline RDA is 1000mg. How many elite
> cyclists do you know who make sure they get 2200mg of calcium every day?
>
> Even if Boardman got the RDA every day, he was suffering a deficit of
> 1200mg of calcium, day in and day out. That comes from *somewhere*.
>
Do cyclists have a lower than average incidence of kidney stones?
Carl Sundquist
> Do cyclists have a lower than average incidence of kidney stones?
Although I suppose the opposite effect could happen if you try to compensate
for Ca loss by ingesting more and there being some limitation of
absorption...
RonSonic
Your slow.
Ron
amit....@gmail.com
B. Lafferty wrote:
> BTW, as Dr. Dope points out:
> Fuentes, who added that his treatments also concerned other sports than
> cycling (football, tennis, athletics), said that it was possible to ride the
> Tour de France without "medical" help, but not at that speed. "You just
> can't ride four of these mountain stages successively at that speed, it's
> very harmful," he said, adding that in his opinion it was more dangerous for
> a cyclist to start the Tour de France with a hematocrit level of 31 percent,
> than one of 51 percent - even though this meant that the rider would be
> excluded from competition.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul06news4
dumbass,
in that same link fuentes also says :
"[Cyclists] are very special sportsmen because they reduce their heart
rate by half when resting," he continued. "Their hearts are big, and
when they stop cycling their hearts reduce their size to normal within
six months, which results in what we call 'sudden death'."
"he stated that the bags of blood that were found were destined "for
use in the next ten years", and that the quantities of EPO seized "for
a family member who might need it." "
in his desperation he's saying whatever pops into his head, so none of
it is credible.
Snippy Bobkins
news:eblra296ph23m8s1m...@4ax.com...
Your mama.
--
Snippy
Charles
I don't think it can be said that Boardman was forced to retire
> due to his low bone mineral density, any more than it can be said that
> Lemond was forced to retire due to some mysterious mitochondrial
> myopathy...
>
> Andy Coggan
>
...and I was forced to retire due to my apathy to serious training.
Charles
Tim Lines
Your a stocker.
Stu Fleming
> Nitpicking here, but he was born in 1968, retired in 1999. Even if he
> maintained a track regime until his retirement, you're saying he trained
> intensively sufficient to cause blood acidity to leech calcium from his
> bones before he reached puberty.
My recollection is that Chris Boardman was under Eddie Soens' training
regime from the age of about 14 onwards. So nearly 20 years, give or
take. Certainly until 1994-1995 or thereabouts, he was mostly a
time-triallist with the emphasis on fixed gear. When he made the
tranisition to Gan and entered the Tour, there was more road-race
specific training.
Stu Fleming
Your welcome.
Donald Munro
> "he stated that the bags of blood that were found were destined "for
> use in the next ten years", and that the quantities of EPO seized "for
> a family member who might need it." "
Mother in law or dog ?
Simon Brooke
>
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> in message <1152193813.1...@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> raa...@hotmail.com ('raa...@hotmail.com') wrote:
>>
>> > More specifically, in the case with
>> > Boardman and Obree; we can generally agree that Obree, given his
>> > simple and relatively poor background certainly did not dope for his
>> > 2 Hour records- yet he did not work out in the pro-peleton,
>>
>> That's a canard. Obree was sacked from his team because he refused to
>> dope. He's very much an individualist, but the reason he 'didn't work
>> out' was because his director sportif wanted to deduct a substantial
>> chunk of Obree's salary to pay for dope which he (Obree) didn't want
>> and didn't see why he should pay for.
>
> That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?
Obree himself.
It's in _Flying Scotsman_ , page 179.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]
yeahyeah
I think the logic is that you stayed at the same hotel as Coyle, and
Lance stayed at the same hotel as Coyle and Ferrari, ergo, you must
have doped.. wait - I mean.. oh forget it.
yeahyeah
amit....@gmail.com wrote:
> "[Cyclists] are very special sportsmen because they reduce their heart
> rate by half when resting," he continued. "Their hearts are big, and
> when they stop cycling their hearts reduce their size to normal within
> six months, which results in what we call 'sudden death'."
I had big question marks floating over my head when I read that, too.
So just how do all these guys retire without dropping dead after half a
year? Do you need to taper off of cycling - or is it like heroin
addiction where you can take some sort of replacement drug to help the
withdrawal - like maybe formula 1 racing?
RicodJour
> B. Lafferty wrote:
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul06news4
>
> dumbass,
>
> in that same link fuentes also says :
>
> "[Cyclists] are very special sportsmen because they reduce their heart
> rate by half when resting," he continued. "Their hearts are big, and
> when they stop cycling their hearts reduce their size to normal within
> six months, which results in what we call 'sudden death'."
>
> in his desperation he's saying whatever pops into his head, so none of
> it is credible.
If the Grinch's heart can grow three sizes within a minute it seems
plausible that it can shrink as well. There's plenty of evidence. The
Grinch's heart grew due to his realization and enlightenment, so
shrinking must be due to the reverse - bitterness. I think I just
discovered the source of virtual win claims...
R
RonSonic
You're grammar's better than mine.
Ron
Tim Lines
Leave you're Grammar out of this. She dint do nuthin.
routebear
> >>> Indurain and Boardman, no.
> >>> Obree, certainly not.
> >>
> >> Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good
> >> marmalade sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!
> >
> > Can you please explain what Marmite is?
>
> A strongly flavoured, dark coloured savoury comestible loved by the
> British and hated by everyone else: the British equivalent of miso soup,
> or gravadlax.
Miso soup can taste ok. Think Poi. I have never met anyone outside of
Hawaii that thinks poi is good.
Donald Munro
>> Andy Coggan (who probably outscored Brian on the LSAT exam)
b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Ah-ha! Exceeding the Lafferty Line ... proof that you
> doped for the LSAT.
Probably under the influence of one of those doper astrophysicists or
mathematicians.
Donald Munro
> We've already covered the fallacies underlying your 1 -> 1 and 2 -> 2
> links, but there's also the fact that you're guilty of contradicting
> yourself. That is, if conclusion #1 and #2 are correct, then postulate
> #1 can't be, because Padilla's estimates aren't to be trusted since he
> worked with Indurain, who based on your conclusion #1 is a doper. Ergo,
> conclusions #1 and #2 can't both be correct.
Lafferty lives near a black hole leading to anomalies in cause and effect.
Perhaps Ben can do a research paper on the effect of gravity singularities
on dope moralists.
Chris BeHanna
>
>> Do cyclists have a lower than average incidence of kidney stones?
I honestly do not know. I asked Google, and it didn't know either.
> Although I suppose the opposite effect could happen if you try to compensate
> for Ca loss by ingesting more and there being some limitation of
> absorption...
I suppose. I suspect the question has not been studied. We are left to
speculate. I would imagine that a cyclist who does not attempt to
compensate for calcium lost to sweat would be less likely to get stones,
as there is less calcium around to excrete via urine. OTOH, a sedentary
person who eats excess calcium should be more likely to get stones. Now,
a cyclist who attempts to balance calcium intake to calcium lost to sweat?
I wouldn't expect the frequency of stones to differ from the average joe,
unless the cyclist doesn't hydrate enough (BIG factor for stones
there, in everyone) or unless there is a limitation to dietary absorption.