Mystery of crashed glider in Arizona
Mike the Strike
strips for our contest database and Steve Koerner came across an old
crashed glider in the Arizona desert.....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36766677@N08/sets/72157622824263137/
Registration was N71JR.
V-tail, large flaps, no spoilers. Our best guess so far is some sort
of HP, but the glider construction seems to have been more composite
than aluminum, so this may be off-base.
Suggestions and speculation welcome!
Mike
Paul Remde
My guess is that it is an HP-18. But I don't remember if HP-18s have a
metal or fiberglass tail boom.
Paul Remde
"Mike the Strike" <Strin...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6bc05265-53d1-4c18...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Fuzzy
> Hi,
>
> My guess is that it is an HP-18. But I don't remember if HP-18s have a
> metal or fiberglass tail boom.
>
> Paul Remde
>
>
>
>
> > Several of our members have recently been surveying possible landing
> > strips for our contest database and Steve Koerner came across an old
> > crashed glider in the Arizona desert.....
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/36766677@N08/sets/72157622824263137/
>
> > Registration was N71JR.
>
> > V-tail, large flaps, no spoilers. Our best guess so far is some sort
> > of HP, but the glider construction seems to have been more composite
> > than aluminum, so this may be off-base.
>
> > Suggestions and speculation welcome!
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The HP-18 fuselage aft of the wing is metal.
Uncle Fuzzy
>
> My guess is that it is an HP-18. But I don't remember if HP-18s have a
> metal or fiberglass tail boom.
>
> Paul Remde
>
>
>
>
> > Several of our members have recently been surveying possible landing
> > strips for our contest database and Steve Koerner came across an old
> > crashed glider in the Arizona desert.....
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/36766677@N08/sets/72157622824263137/
>
> > Registration was N71JR.
>
> > V-tail, large flaps, no spoilers. Our best guess so far is some sort
> > of HP, but the glider construction seems to have been more composite
> > than aluminum, so this may be off-base.
>
> > Suggestions and speculation welcome!
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
According to the FAA N number registry, it's a Moni that was
registered in 1989, and cancelled in 1992. The acft is shown as
"Destroyed"
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=71JR&x=18&y=9
Mike the Strike
>
> According to the FAA N number registry, it's a Moni that was
> registered in 1989, and cancelled in 1992. The acft is shown as
I don't think it is a Moni (they all had an engine!) and also suspect
it is an earlier ship than 1989 - 1970s vintage is my guess.
Mike
Uncle Fuzzy
The owner just probably had a thing for that N Number, V-tails, and
crashing, I guess. Me... I crash something, I'm gonna' try something
different!
T8
That's no HP-18 for sure, and no HP I recognize.
-Evan Ludeman / T8
Dave Nadler
Well, its sure no Moni or HP-18.
Never saw an HP with a welded tube structure for the gear.
Looks like big landing flaps.
I dunno !
Wayne Paul
"Mike the Strike" <Strin...@msn.com> wrote in message news:6bc05265-53d1-4c18...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
I am quite familiar with the Schreder sailplane series. The tail cone appears to be from on of Dick's kits; however, the spars are unlike any that I have seen. The only wings I am not familiar with are the 33 to 1 aspect ratio HP-15 wing and the HP-17 wing. The '17 wing had full-span flaps (no ailerons) and used spoilers for roll control.
It is my understanding that only two HP-15s were built and they both have been re-winged. One has a HP-16 wing and the other a HP-18 wing.
It is my understanding that only one of the HP-17s was built. In 1983 Dick still had it. All Dick's stuff currently is part of the Smithsonian collection or a local Ohio air museum.
Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder
gregg...@gmail.com
On Dec 7, 7:34 pm, "Wayne Paul" <wa...@soaridaho.com> wrote:
> "Mike the Strike" <Stringm...@msn.com> wrote in messagenews:6bc05265-53d1-4c18...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Bob Kuykendall
origin.
If that's the glider I'm thinking of, the wing spar is a rectangular
box section of riveted aluminum, covered in polystyrene foam, and
skinned with fiberglass.
Thanks, Bob K.
None
> > Suggestions and speculation welcome!
>
> > Mike
>
>
> agl
Can it not be traced through the registration? FAA must have
something!
Wayne Paul
> "None" <nyalwi...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:11f5262c-c988-4da6...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
I am sure the FAA has the records filed away in a vault somewhere. However, the automated NTSB records only go back to 1962. That makes 1962 the online query limit..
My guess is that the accident was before 1962 and N71JP's registration was voided at the time of the accident. As the result the glider's history has disappeared in a file drawer somewhere.
Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
John Seaborn
Are the flaps of the fowler variety? If so "Wealthy industrialist and
gliding enthusiast, Hugh Keartland sponsored the SA entry into the
World Gliding Championships in Marfa in 1970 and a second BJ4 was
built by Pat in record time. The two gliders, renamed the BJ4A and
BJ4B, were shipped to the US to be flown by Pat and Bomber Jackson.
Unfortunately weather conditions were poor and the craft
disappointed." In fact one was damaged in the WGC. The hitch is I
think the BJ series had a "T" or conventional tail. Great stuff.
Bob Kuykendall
> I wonder what happened to the pilot?
I think he probably bought a Libelle.
Greg Arnold
AOPA would be willing to look through the paper records for a modest fee.
Bruce
BJ4 had conventional tail, and both are a accounted for - I've "met"
both of them - even helped rig one for a display. If you look in the
soaring encyclopaedia for the term heavy wings it says cf BJ4...
Bruce
Bob Whelan
Assuming this isn't a digital hoax, the only reasonable conclusion is
this was a drug smuggling prototype on a test run.
These guys are no dummies...hence the use of an abandoned N-number, big
flaps for obstructed-approach, short-field landings, outsized nose vent
for hot-country cooling/quick payload dispersal on the off-chance of
interception, and the choice of landing spot.
That noted, I have no clue what this may once have been. If only planes
could talk...
Intriguing find!
Bob W.
bildan
Nothing to add except the Creosote (Grease Wood) bushes that appear to
have grown up around it are extremely slow growing. They are
considered by some to be the oldest living things on the planet. It's
easy to believe it's been there over 40 years.
In the early 1960's there were only a few hundred gliders in the US.
It should be possible to find a historical reference to it.
JJ Sinclair
Cannon registered it on 8/15/89 and listed it as from the Jr. College
District of Metro KSC, Mo. 3200 Broadway, Kansas City , Mo, 64111
How about a phone call from some of our KC readers? Bet that name and
date could jog some memories.
JJ
Mike the Strike
> I'd say its a Jr. College shop project by the FAA info; Berry C. Vun
> Cannon registered it on 8/15/89 and listed it as from the Jr. College
> District of Metro KSC, Mo. 3200 Broadway, Kansas City , Mo, 64111
> How about a phone call from some of our KC readers? Bet that name and
> date could jog some memories.
> JJ
JJ:
We believe it's much older than 1990's vintage and are estimating
1960's to 70's - before the current FAA database.
It's likely a homebrew with some HP similarities, which should fix the
time period.
It was found at a desert strip about 16 miles southwest of Estrella
Sailport, so it's entirely possible that it could have launched from
there.
Mike
Mike
Junior Team 2007
Junior Team 2007
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Siren%20C.30S%20Edelweiss.jpg
Mike Westbrook
David
a standard class, no flaps. Perhaps this was an alien (i.e. Roswell
type) modification.
David Martin
brian whatcott
And now, the winner of the $2 cigar:
For this standard class siren c-30S Edelweiss, first product 1963:
65 built...
Brian W
Mike
Also the Edelweiss was a mostly wood ship, except for the ailerons.
My first guess was the Edelweiss also, then I saw the flaps and
notieced that it was not shredded wood on the wings, but paint and
filler.
Tim Taylor
Darryl Ramm
wrote:
> Come on guys, it's got to be an Edelweiss!
>
> http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Siren%20C.30S%20Edelweiss.jpg
>
> Mike Westbrook
I don't think it is an Edelweiss, flaps and no top surface spoilers
being one issue as others have mentioned.
But if it is French, I will be outraged and will demand to know what
the SSA is doing about its 3,000 hour inspection!
Darryl
Darryl Ramm
Yes but I think the C34 also had top and bottom spoilers. And unless
my eyes are being fooled thre are no spoilers in the photos Mike
linked to.
See http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/209736.html
Darryl
Scott Lamont
> On Dec 8, 4:24 pm, Tim Taylor <ttaylo...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 8, 5:18 pm, Mike <mike_car...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:50 pm, David <kandd.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
Could it be a Prue?
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?PlaneID=1
Wayne Paul
I am sure the tailcone and ruddervators are from a Schreder kit. Notice that the tail-feathers control surfaces are hinged on the top at 50% of the chord leaving a large gap on the bottom side. The mass balance design is the same. Finally ruddervators fold for trailering and can fold past the vertical like all Schreder "V" tails. (The past the vertical fold causes problems with which I am all too familiar.)
Are there any other "V" tail glider designs which match the above description? If so, do the wing have large span flaps and no spoilers?
As I stated before, there is nothing HP about the wing spar, or steel tube structure associated with the landing gear.
There are several one-of-a-kind gliders, some still flying, that were built using parts purchased from Dick Schreder. I think this wreck is one of them.
BTW, I think Bob K knows more then he is telling us.
Wayne
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F
"Darryl Ramm" <darry...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:2f206ac5-d2be-4037...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Steve Koerner
I think so too. Bob's earlier speculation on the wing construction
matches precisely what I observed.
Tell us, please Bob.
Darryl Ramm
The Prue 215 was short winged at 12.2m, this looks longer. The nose is
different, the wing is lower mounted than the Prue 215 (got to imagine
a turtledeck added to the wreck), the tail boom looks thinner than a
215 etc.
In additon to the sailplane directory, we can also now make use of the
Soaring Magazine archives John Leibacher and Kathleen Taylor put
together. See http://soaringweb.org/Soaring_Index/1962/1962_issue.html
for a cover photo, and in a separate issue an article and back cover
illustration of a Prue 215.
Darryl
tstock
was totaled.
It does like HP'ish to me so my guess is an early HP?
Mike
I do not think it is an early HP. The fuse is very low profile for a
60's HP. The v-tails also seem too high aspect ratio.
Steve Koerner
desert strips at the time. The span is 15m. The wing skin is
fiberglass. It had solid foam in the forward D tube and the spar was
riveted aluminum. HP gliders and Irv Prue gliders were metal, metal
and metal. At this point, I am pretty confident that Wayne Paul and
Bob Kuykendall are the guys that are on the right track here. I think
the tail cone and tail feathers are borrowed from an HP and it is a
one of glider.
Bob knew the internal construction without seeing it. Is Bob the
builder of this glider? If so, he is likely feeling sad to see her
now in such a state.
Wayne Paul
"tstock" <toms...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:24afcf27-41f0-49b8...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> Well, someone knows the story, because it was stripped clean after it
> was totaled.
>
> It does like HP'ish to me so my guess is an early HP?
>
Don't think so.
HP-7,8,9 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/history.html#HP7)
HP-10 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-10/N25D/N25D.htm)
HP-11 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-11/N14GP.htm)
HP-12 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-9-12-13/N841DR/N841DR.htm)
HP-13 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-9-12-13/N2YB/N2YB.htm)
HP-14 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N1113G/N1113G.htm)
mine has extended ruddervators.
(http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/HP-14_6F_5a.jpg)
HP-15 (http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=163)
HP-16 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-16/N8DC/N8DC_First_Flight.htm)
HP-17 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/history.html#HP17)
HP-18 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-18/N5568/N5568.htm)
gen
Moriarty.
http://picasaweb.google.com/gens2000/Moriarty20090720#5360934513734628274
http://picasaweb.google.com/gens2000/Moriarty20090720#5360934528476336658
-Gen
Wayne Paul
"Steve Koerner" <sjko...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:2d21a6d9-c50f-40ec...@a10g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
... Snip ...
>
> Bob knew the internal construction without seeing it. Is Bob the
> builder of this glider? If so, he is likely feeling sad to see her
> now in such a state.
Bob purchased all the items in Dick Schreder's warehouse several years ago. He has the wrights to the HP brand. He also has the records of all the HP/RS kits ever sold. His company is HP Aircraft, LLC (http://www.hpaircraft.com) and he is in the process of producing a composite kit which is being called the HP-24.
Bob has owned a HP-11 and built a HP-18. I believe his knowledge of the wreckage is derived from Dick Schreder's kit sales records.
Darryl Ramm
> Possibly Oldshaw O-2 or its variant? I saw one at Soaring Museum at
> Moriarty.
>
>
> -Gen
Anybody else want to add any more V-tail gueses here?
That is another standard class. This wreck has big time flaps and was
certainly not all-wood construction.
It looks "pretty" gotta be some those HP genes in there. C'mon Bob
tell us about her...
Darryl
Bob Kuykendall
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm pretty sure I've already told about as
much as I know. I think I've seen pictures of it in an old Soaring
magazine, maybe along with an old Homebuilders Hall article. But
looking through my copy of the Collected Works of Stan Hall, the
closes thing I can find is the Moba 2C, which is in Australia and
accounted for. It also dates to the late 1970s, probably too late to
be our mystery ship. I sure wish I could ask Stan about it, I'd be
pretty sure he'd know it.
What I think I recall of the pictures in Soaring showed a cross-
section of how the aluminum box spar was sized to fit into the
airfoil, and how the foam blocks were cut and nested onto the spar. I
probably saw the pictures around 1980 when I was working at Sky
Sailing and someone left us several cartons of old Soaring magazines
ranging from about 1960 to about 1977. If I was to start looking
through old Soarings, I'd start at 1967 and then widen the search both
ways.
If it seems odd that I identified the wing construction, please
understand that I've been interested in sailplane structures since
about as far back as I can remember clearly. Whenever I saw a picture
of something like that, I'd be all over it, figuring out how it could
be done, what the advantages are, what the disadvantages are. I know
just about every way there is to build a glider. I even know a few
pretty good ways.
Furthermore, I recall that there were several similar projects in the
late 1960s. It seems natural to want to combine predicable, well-
understood riveted aluminum primary structure with easily-shaped foam
and fiberglass secondary structure.
As for my quip about the pilot buying a Libelle, that was an offhand
remark based on two things: For one, it seems evident from the photos
that whatever incident placed that glider there was eminently
survivable, and the pilot probably walked away from it. For another,
my bet is that that glider, like too many homebuilt ships, was too
hard to assemble, too hard to disassemble, too hard to seal, and
probably embodied other disappointments as well. And it probably had a
lousy trailer. So when the pilot did walk away, he probably couldn't
face the idea of another disassembly and reassembly, so he just took
the instruments and left it there, vowing his next glider would go
together much more easily. The lesson there is probably that having a
good trailer is possibly more important than having a good glider.
As for having been involved in the construction, I'm flattered, but
I'm not quite that old. Guessing that that glider was built around
1967, I would have been four or five years old at the time.
Here's a list of all the people I'd ask for more information:
Fred Jiran
George Applebay
Jim Marske
Vern Oldershaw
Alex Sim
Thanks, and best regards to all
Bob K.
www.hpaircraft.com
Greg Arnold
> On Dec 8, 6:41 pm, Steve Koerner <sjkoer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> BTW, I think Bob K knows more then he is telling us.
>> I think so too. Bob's earlier speculation on the wing construction
>> matches precisely what I observed.
>>
>> Tell us, please Bob.
>
> Sorry to disappoint, but I'm pretty sure I've already told about as
> much as I know. I think I've seen pictures of it in an old Soaring
> magazine, maybe along with an old Homebuilders Hall article. But
> looking through my copy of the Collected Works of Stan Hall, the
> closes thing I can find is the Moba 2C, which is in Australia and
> accounted for. It also dates to the late 1970s, probably too late to
> be our mystery ship. I sure wish I could ask Stan about it, I'd be
> pretty sure he'd know it.
The answer to the mystery most likely is contained in a dusty old file
at the FAA in Oklahoma City. I don't know the FAA policy regarding
public access, but AOPA has access to those files.
Bob Kuykendall
> I believe his knowledge of the wreckage is derived from Dick
> Schreder's kit sales records.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. But if I had a name, I could
probably find it if it's in the files. The tailboom looks too slender
to be any HP except the HP-18; if it is so it would date the mystery
ship to no earlier than about 1974. The V-tail surfaces look taller
than standard HP stuff, but that might just be an artifact of the
camera angles.
Thanks, Bob K.
csle...@hotmail.com
this?
Craig
Wayne Paul
<csle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:61d14b39-36cf-423a...@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I wonder if it is visible on Google Earth? Exactly what airstrip is
> this?
> Craig
Been there tried that. The field is Serene Strip. Its' coordinates are 32.9970N, 112.2723W. If I strain my eyes and use a bit imagination, I think I can see it near the north end of the runway along the eastern boundary fence.
Wayne
Steve Koerner
boundary fence.
Terry
> Yes, it is near the north end of the main runway along the eastern
> boundary fence.
Could it be a one off HP-17 by Ken Bawden?
Mike the Strike
The current airport owner is listed as Dale J. Bawden. Link?
Mike
Bob Kuykendall
I don't remember any entries for HP-17 in the files, but I'll check.
The name Bawden gives me something to go on.
Thanks, Bob K.
Dave Nadler
> Possibly Oldshaw O-2 or its variant? I saw one at Soaring Museum at
> Moriarty.
>
>
> -Gen
I called Paul Oldershaw and he assures me this is no Oldershaw,
as they were wood and are both in the Moriarity museum.
Paul points out that the spar is enormously long, and remembers
Schreder building something like this. The spar was also a water
tank, and it looks like the flap/aileron is possibly hinged directly
at the spar.
Somebody out there must know the story !
See ya, Dave "YO electric"
Bob Kuykendall
> I don't remember any entries for HP-17 in the files, but I'll check.
> The name Bawden gives me something to go on.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.
I scanned the files for likely candidates, no joy. I found three
folders for HP-17; one kit shipment overseas (Sweden, I think) and two
others that look like they converted to HP-18.
I'd probably have to go through the whole cabinet to find a shipment
to "Bawden." I'm in the middle of Akaflieg Douglas Flat X right now,
so it will have to wait.
Thanks, Bob K.
Bob Kuykendall
> On Dec 8, 11:50 pm, gen <gshib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Possibly Oldshaw O-2 or its variant? I saw one at Soaring Museum at
> > Moriarty.
>
>
> > -Gen
>
> I called Paul Oldershaw and he assures me this is no Oldershaw,
> as they were wood and are both in the Moriarity museum.
>
> Paul points out that the spar is enormously long, and remembers
> Schreder building something like this. The spar was also a water
> tank, and it looks like the flap/aileron is possibly hinged directly
> at the spar.
>
> Somebody out there must know the story !
>
> See ya, Dave "YO electric"
I'm pretty sure the wing spar is not a Schreder thing. If it were, I
think I'd have seen signs of it at the Bryan shop or in Dick's design
files. All of the HPs numbered 7 through 22 are accounted for, and 23
was just a table of wing spar bending moments.
Thanks, Bob K.
5Z
Jordan Reid was building a glider from scratch. I recall seeing it a
couple times in his back yard and the only thing I remember about it
was the giant nose vent hole. IIRC, he worked at the University of
Arizona in the aero department. He claimed the large hole with pitot
inside was clean according to some tests he had done.
Am pretty sure it was composite and a V tail. It's quite likely he
started working on it in 1971, so 71JR makes sense.
Perhaps a TuSC old timer or UofA faculty member could do some
digging? I did a quick Google search for Jordan, but nothing obvious
showed up. I believe he passed away in the early 1980's due to
illness.
-Tom
Steve Koerner
It would be nice to independently corroborate your recollection but
that does sound very likely.
So the next question is why is she stuck to a fence post at Serene
airstrip...
Mike Stringfellow looked at an official airport database record for
that airstrip. The record indicates that there are two single engine
aircraft based there and one "operational glider" based there.
Perhaps then the owner of Serene had acquired 71JR from Mr Reid's
estate for personal soaring endeavors. Maybe a thunderstorm came
along one day when she was not tied down adequately. I'm thinking she
may have cartwheeled in the wind to her final resting place skewered
to the fence.
ContestID67
If someone is interested enough, and wants to spend $10, they can
request from the FAA all the information about a particular tail
number, either on paper or on CD. I did that with my glider and the
information went all the way back to the original German paperwork (in
German), 26 documents altogether. Very interesting.
Importantly, you will need both the tail number AND THE SERIAL
NUMBER. This second component may be the difficult nut to crack. Was
there a data plate on the glider and, more importantly, did someone
get the SN? I suppose both the SN and N number is required as N
numbers are reused (like in this case) and you would only want the
information related to "your" ship.
See http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/ for details.
ContestID67
Out of curiousity I entered just the tail number 71JR. The system
rejected that - the only way you know is that your shopping cart
remains empty. I then entered a bogus SN of "1111". The FAA database
is immediately queried and I got the following message;
"The N-Number 71JF with Serial Number 1111 was not found. If you are
sure the information was entered correctly and would like to add the
item to your shopping card for Research, click the OK button."
So if the SN is not available, then this might be an option. I
clicked "add to cart". The "cost" is now shown as "Research" with a
total of $0.00. Hmmmm. Lets click "Checkout" and see what happens.
A dialog appears that says;
"Make and Model fields can not be blank. If you are unable to
identify the aircraft you are interested in, you may contact the
Aircraft Registry at 1-866-762-9434".
OK, I am game. I will give the number a call later today and report
back.
Scott Lamont
If you enter Reid as the manufacturer (in the FAA database) there is a
Reid RGS-1 amateur-built sailplane listed. It is not accessible in the
records, only listed. The Mfg/Mdl code is 0564744.
ContestID67
the key to this mystery. Tom "5Z" you are the winner.
A very nice lady at the FAA said that the tail number had been used
three times. A Cessna 421C (current), Moni before that (distroyed)
and then a "glider" which was registered to Jordon E Reid of Tucson,
AZ! Bingo.
She didn't have a model number but "Reid" as a manufacturer does show
up in the FAA database as a "RGS-1" glider as mentioned earlier, 1
seat. Serial number is 0001 so it is obviously a one-off homebuilt.
The detailed information on the craft is being sent to me but it is in
"Federal Storage" and will take weeks to be dug up.
RGS-1 = Reid Gordon Special #1???
Now the next question - how did it come to be lying next to a fence in
such disrepair. Wind storm as someone thought? It seems to be in
relatively good repair for something that might have tumbled end over
end.
- John DeRosa
Darryl Ramm
Well done guys! But it's not over yet. The design looks heavily
influenced by Schreder, maybe HP-17ish. Maybe Bob can turn up
something in his records. Some correspondence?
Darryl
tstock
>
> RGS-1 = Reid Gordon Special #1???
Reid Glider Series 1?
tstock
glider aircraft : REID RGS-1
Code 0564744
Manufacturer name REID
Model name RGS-1
Type of aircraft Glider
Engine type (none)
Land/sea/amph. land
Number of engines 0
Crusing speed 60
Steve Koerner
cartwheeling idea.
Mike
Maybe...
RGS-1 is Reid Glider Sailplane-1
as in
Schweizer SGS (Schweizer Glider Sailplane) 1-35
or
Schweizer SGU (Schweizer Glider Utility) 2-22
Bob Kuykendall
>
> Well done guys! But it's not over yet. The design looks heavily
> influenced by Schreder, maybe HP-17ish. Maybe Bob can turn up
> something in his records. Some correspondence?
I just finished another eight hour day at ADF X, and then an hour
cleaning up what's going amok at where I work most days. So I'll spend
a half-hour digging through the files, but no more.
I think that 1971 is a bit early for HP-17, and I already looked
through all the HP-17 files I found. My bet is that the aft fuselage
is HP-16, so that's where I'll concentrate. I'll let you know if I
find anything or not.
Thanks, Bob K.
Mike
Tom emailed me this morning, and here is what I remember.
Jordan Reid was an instructor at TuSC in the late 70's or early 80's
when I was a student. We had a rope-break (for real) at about 100'
AGL when TuSC was flying out of Ryan field. That is another story.
My recollection is that he was an excellent instructor.
I don't remember the V-tail, but the wings in the photo look like what
I remember.
I understood Jordan to be an aeronautics instructor at University of
Arizona. He designed and built his own ship that was characterized by
very thin high-performance aluminum wings. One day he showed up at
Ryan with this really radical glider that I understood had not flown
for a while. While on tow perhaps a couple of hundred feet off the
ground it developed flutter so severe that I was sure a wing or the
tail was going to come off. Viewed from the length of the runway, the
tips of the wing were going through extreme oscillations while at the
same time the tail torqued left and right. Jordan released and turned
back toward the runway, and the flutter seemed to stop. Then it
started again, but he was able to land safely.
The ship's skin was buckled in several places. Jordan said that it
wasn't that bad, but most of us figured that the ship would never fly
again.
Did he fly it again and crash, leaving it where it has been found. Or
was it abandoned in the desert after he died? I am pretty sure that
he died of natural causes unrelated to soaring.
Regards,
Mike Parker, IC
Mike
Now that I think about it, maybe I was told that the spar was
aluminum.
Or....I was only a student then, so perhaps I misinterpreted something
that Jordan told me.
Mike Parker, IC
Bob Kuykendall
> I just finished another eight hour day at ADF X, and then an hour
> cleaning up what's going amok where I work most days. So I'll spend
> a half-hour digging through the files, but no more.
Sorry, no Reids anywhere in the files for HP-11, -12A, 14, 15, 16, 17,
18, RS-15, or in any of the several "Misc." folders. I did discover
that Paul Bikle had fine penmanship, though.
That's not to say that the aft fuselage and tail aren't Schreder
parts, just that I found no record of it. Which is a pity, because I
do love a mystery like this!
Thanks, Bob K.
VinceC
wrote:
> Come on guys, it's got to be an Edelweiss!
>
> http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Siren%20C.30S%20Edelweiss.jpg
>
> Mike Westbrook
The nose area ahead of the canopy is too short on the Edelweiss
Wayne Paul
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2695/4163352715_63a7a44d65_b.jpg
"Bob Kuykendall" <b...@hpaircraft.com> wrote in message news:1fd398fc-bf6f-4e4b...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Greg Arnold
> The ruddervator actuation system is a distinctive feature of a Schreder sailplane. If a picture of the control surface actuator coupling had been taken when the following picture was taken, I would be able to tell if it came from a sailplane designed by Dick Schreder.
> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2695/4163352715_63a7a44d65_b.jpg
>
That plane must have had tremendous cockpit ventilation. Probably your
hat ended up back in the tail boom.
Mike the Strike
TUSC members remember this ship being at our present field at El Tiro
until around 1984. It sounds as if it was sold to a new owner and
moved around this time. Possibly the owner of the Serene strip or a
family member. We will certainly go and take another look with more
detailed photos just to satisfy all the curiosity we've stirred up.
Mike
db_sonic
Also possible, in addition to providing pitot and cockpit vent, he was
looking into setting up some sort of blow hole turbulators in the wing
like the ASW20 and DG300 and the hole could provide the necessary
intake port...pure speculation on my part. Good job guys id'ing this.
Andy
> Several of our members have recently been surveying possible landing
> strips for our contest database and Steve Koerner came across an old
> crashed glider in the Arizona desert.....
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/36766677@N08/sets/72157622824263137/
>
> Registration was N71JR.
> Suggestions and speculation welcome!
I was contacted by a pilot who has flow at Estrella for many years.
He told me he knew about this glider and I asked him to write up what
he knew. His wife sent the following in an email.
"back in 1986? 1987? joe was looking for a new trailer for his 1-35
that he had bought in moriarity, new mexico. the glider came with a
closed in trailer but it was big enough to make a mobile home out of
it!!! joe thinks he saw the ad for a trailer in the ssa magazine and
called a tel. # down in tucson. it was the wife of jordan reid who
was already deceased (from cancer we think) and she was just trying to
get rid of it. she told joe her husband had been an aeronautical
engineer at the university down there and that the trailer had a
glider in it that he had built, but after 5 or 6 test flights, the
wings were fluttering really bad. in the meantime he got ill and
could never fix the problem. she told joe she would sell him the
trailer with the glider in it and warned him it was not flyable. some
friend of their family actually delivered the trailer and sailplane to
estrella sailport for joe. the trailer was 1" square steel tubing
with no skin on it and very well built. joe and i covered it and
still have the 1-35 in that trailer!!!...................now for the
glider.......there was a logbook with the 5 or 6 entries in it showing
the plane was dangerous to fly. joe said the glider was in very good
condition and primed but not painted. he took out all the
instruments, push rods, moving parts, etc. and hauled the rest of the
glider to the stanfield dump!!!!! not too long later (maybe a year
later?) joe and i were out exploring the desert near estrella looking
at land. he slammed on the brakes and was freaking out because he
realized it was the glider he had taken to the dump!! it was up along
a fence on someone's property that obviously had a runway on it. we
met the people who owned the property (we have no idea now what their
names were) and they were very friendly and only stayed on the
property sometimes (they had another home in the phoenix area). they
told us they went to the stanfield dump 1 day to throw out their
trash, saw the sailplane, and decided it would make a wonderful
decoration for their property!! joe unfortunately threw away the log
book when he took the sailplane to the dump which he obviously deeply
regrets. he wants everyone to know that mr. jordan reid had put a
huge amount of effort in that glider and the trailer also. everything
was very well built and it is so sad he couldn't really enjoy it."
So it appears that the builder abandoned the project due to failing
health and it was not ever flown by anyone else.
Andy
MickiMinner
> So it appears that the builder abandoned the project due to failing
> health and it was not ever flown by anyone else.
>
> Andy
Charlie"Lite" remembers watching Jordan fly in the glider. Those
wings fluttered so bad, he was surprised that Jordan never crashed
it. But he always made it back to land safely. If Jordan's health
had permitted, he would have fixed that problem! There was so much
time and detail put into it, but it was definitely all Jordan's design
and work.
ContestID67
this again? Looking it up in the FAA database further confused me. A
Cessna 421C? Was this a possible tow plane? Hmmmmm.
After reading the contents of the CD, my brain cells started to
fire. The great wrecked Jordon Reid RGS-1 glider mystery!!
The tail number was registered on March 10, 1975. It was de-
registered by the estate of Jordon Reid by Frank Whiting (I think -
its handwritten) on April 4, 1986 as "Totally destroyed or scrapped.
Not flyable."
So for all those that are still interested in the details of this
glider, the contents of the CD can be found at the following URL.
There is a great handwritten note by Jordon Reid in the Airworthiness
file asking for a tail number assignment. See http://derosaweb.net/aviation/N71JR/
for the files.
If you don't have a CD of the information on your glider, this is a
great $10 deal. In my case I got details all the way back to the
initial German language documentation! Order this at
http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp.
Enjoy, John DeRosa
ContestID67
Aircraft Operating Limitations" (items number 7-9).
7. Maximum Gross Weight: 740 Normal, 983 with water
Center of Gravity Limits: 84.75 to 87.5
Maximum Speed Limitations
------------
Auto or winch tow: N/A
Airplane Tow: 70MPH
Max. Smooth Air: 140 MPH (handwritten 126 next to this)
Max. Rough Air: 140 MPH
8. These operating limitations will expire on 8/17/78
10. Flight test area per attached Phoenix Sectional
Tony
> Yesterday, I received a CD from the FAA for N71JR. Why did I order
> this again? Looking it up in the FAA database further confused me. A
> Cessna 421C? Was this a possible tow plane? Hmmmmm.
>
> After reading the contents of the CD, my brain cells started to
> fire. The great wrecked Jordon Reid RGS-1 glider mystery!!
>
> The tail number was registered on March 10, 1975. It was de-
> registered by the estate of Jordon Reid by Frank Whiting (I think -
> its handwritten) on April 4, 1986 as "Totally destroyed or scrapped.
> Not flyable."
>
> So for all those that are still interested in the details of this
> glider, the contents of the CD can be found at the following URL.
> There is a great handwritten note by Jordon Reid in the Airworthiness
> for the files.
>
> If you don't have a CD of the information on your glider, this is a
> great $10 deal. In my case I got details all the way back to the
> initial German language documentation! Order this athttp://162.58.35.241/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp.
>
> Enjoy, John DeRosa
That is the first time I've ever heard of anyone asking the FAA to
"surprise me!" classic!
vontresc
> this again? Looking it up in the FAA database further confused me. A
> Cessna 421C? Was this a possible tow plane? Hmmmmm.
>
> After reading the contents of the CD, my brain cells started to
> fire. The great wrecked Jordon Reid RGS-1 glider mystery!!
>
> The tail number was registered on March 10, 1975. It was de-
> registered by the estate of Jordon Reid by Frank Whiting (I think -
> its handwritten) on April 4, 1986 as "Totally destroyed or scrapped.
> Not flyable."
>
> So for all those that are still interested in the details of this
> glider, the contents of the CD can be found at the following URL.
> There is a great handwritten note by Jordon Reid in the Airworthiness
> for the files.
>
> If you don't have a CD of the information on your glider, this is a
> great $10 deal. In my case I got details all the way back to the
>
> Enjoy, John DeRosa
Also if you are as "frugal" (read chaep) as me, you can get the FAA
records CD for free when you stop at the FAA pavillion during the
Oshkosh fly-in. Of course having to spend the $37 for admission is
going to cut into your savings a bit :-)
Pete
brian whatcott
> Yesterday, I received a CD from the FAA for N71JR. /snip/
> If you don't have a CD of the information on your glider
> great $10 deal. In my case I got details all the way back to the
> initial German language documentation! Order this at
> http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp.
>
> Enjoy, John DeRosa
You're right.
This was a smooth, hassle free transaction.
Thanks!
Brian W