300M timing belt replacement
Percival P. Cassidy
which is no longer a Chrysler dealer -- quoted me $750 to replace the
timing belt and water pump, presumably using over-priced "genuine Mopar"
parts.
The parts at AutoZone are less than $200, but, having read through the
relevant section of the service manual, I don't think this is a job I
want to tackle myself. Am I overestimating the difficulty?
What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?
Perce
KirkM
wrote:
I just had my Stratus done recently. Alot of the cost was in parts.
There was an upgrade to the belt tensioner from 2003 that was
included. This also required that the timing belt covers be replaced
too.
If your 300M only needs the belt and water pump, $750 seems high to
me.
-KM
Bill Putney
Actually, for a dealer, it isn't too far out of line - depending on
exactly what is being replaced (probably not much - keep reading).
I had my 3.2 (same exact engine as your 3.5, just different bore/piston
size) done about 3 years ago. I purchased my own OEM parts from an
on-line discount dealer (30% below list plus actual shipping vs. list
+20 or 30% plus sales tax from a local dealer) - total parts was about
$360. I included belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, hydraulic
tensioner (which alone is almost $100), both accessory belts, both
radiator hoses, and thermostat (a bear to replace on these cars).
Took the parts to an independent shop that frankly underbid the job at
$300 flat rate (should have been probably $400-450).
So I got by for about $700 total parts + labor.
Two things to consider:
(1) Most likely your dealer isn't including the hydraulic tensioner for
that price (most people re-use the old one, and frankly, they very
seldom give problems) - but make darn sure you have the timing belt
tensioner *pulley* replaced - that *is* a finite-life part. Nor will
they include the accessory belts, radiator hoses, and t-stat unless you
pay more.
(2) Whether you have the dealer do it, or an independent shop do it, or
DIY, I *highly* recommend using OEM parts for the belt and the water
pump. I hang out on three LH car-specific forums, and there is story
after story after story on the belt pitch accuracy/length being off
enough to require re-timing of the cam sprockets (requires special tool
- no substitute or makeshift tool for this particular tool) *and* the
water pumps failing very early and/or not fitting right - and those
problems were even with the Gates parts that everybody (including
myself) usually swears by).
So you have to decide: Go with that price knowing you'll get OEM parts,
but you will not get new rad. hoses, t-stat, or hydraulic t-belt
tensioner, or get your own OEM parts from a good online discount dealer,
like www.mopardiscountparts.com (yes - they are still in business - 30%
below list - no gimmicks) and end up replacing a lot more critical parts
for the same $$ if you can get a good independent shop to accept your
parts and just charge labor (probably about $400-450).
And I repeat: on this particular job, do not use aftermarket parts -
even Gates (except accessory belts and hoses). T-stat: OEM - gets
installed pointing towards engine - which is opposite of the factory
t-stat (different design) - if someone doesn't believe me, have them
check the FSM. Many people on the LH car forums did the opposite and
had overheating problems - turned it around: good to go.
You can knock about $80 of the parts prices I gave if you re-use your
old hydraulic tensioner (not the tensioner pulley, the hydraulic
tensioner), and that would be an OK tradeoff - like I said, that
particular part is pretty reliable and long-lived.
Come see us at http://300mclub.org/forums/index.php?
FWIW . . .
--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
news:h2dgjs$qpk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD. The most
difficult
part about the job was figuring out how to get at the tensioner bolt, it
took an hour
or two of false starts. The service manual was not helpful and all the
online posts
assume non-AWD and tell you to use long extensions and u-joints and such
nonsense.
I ended up simply using a standard wrench and reaching up in there and doing
it by feel.
Of course I had to flip the wrench back and forth 50 times or so since I
could only
move the nut a few degrees. I have gear wrenches but they wouldn't have
helped here.
If I had gone into the job knowing the trick it would have been 2 hours,
tops, in
the driveway.
Total on parts was a bit less than $100. I've done a water pump before on
that
van and it's easy.
$750 sounds way high to me. However, since the economy is not doing well
right now,
a lot of people are having older cars fixed rather than scrapped, and most
mechanics
have plenty of work, and can pick and choose - hence the higher price.
Ted
aarcuda69062
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
> news:h2dgjs$qpk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon.
<snip>
> > What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?
> >
>
> I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD.
> the driveway.
<snip>
Different chassis, different engine, different belt,
different-different-different.
Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
talking about.
Bill Putney
I think you'll agree that my post is apples to apples.
aarcuda69062
Bill Putney <bp...@kinez.net> wrote:
> aarcuda69062 wrote:
> > In article <lleqh6-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
> >> news:h2dgjs$qpk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon.
> > <snip>
> >>> What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?
> >>>
> >> I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD.
> >> the driveway.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Different chassis, different engine, different belt,
> > different-different-different.
> >
> > Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
> > talking about.
>
> I think you'll agree that my post is apples to apples.
No problem at all with your post Bill. Very accurate and to the point.
On the other hand, Ted seems to have a severe case of "I changed a belt
once."
KirkM
> In article <7avo2nF219me...@mid.individual.net>,> > > In article <lleqh6-pf6....@news.ipinc.net>,
> > > "Ted Mittelstaedt" <t...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
> > >> "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
> > >>news:h2dgjs$qpk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > >>> Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon.
> > > <snip>
> > >>> What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?
>
> > >> I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD.
> > >> the driveway.
> > > <snip>
>
> > > Different chassis, different engine, different belt,
> > > different-different-different.
>
> > > Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
> > > talking about.
>
> > I think you'll agree that my post is apples to apples.
>
> No problem at all with your post Bill. Very accurate and to the point.
>
> On the other hand, Ted seems to have a severe case of "I changed a belt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ted was describing serpentine belt tensioner change on what is most
likely a 3.3 or 3.8.
My 1993 is on it's 3rd one. I am hoping to be able to change it myself
next time, so Ted's post had some use for me.
The 3.3/3.8 using a timing chain, so it is probably good until the
engine needs rebuilding.
-KM
Percival P. Cassidy
>> Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon. The dealer --
>> which is no longer a Chrysler dealer -- quoted me $750 to replace the
>> timing belt and water pump, presumably using over-priced "genuine Mopar"
>> parts.
>>
>> The parts at AutoZone are less than $200, but, having read through the
>> relevant section of the service manual, I don't think this is a job I
>> want to tackle myself. Am I overestimating the difficulty?
>>
>> What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?
> I just had my Stratus done recently. Alot of the cost was in parts.
> There was an upgrade to the belt tensioner from 2003 that was
> included. This also required that the timing belt covers be replaced
> too.
I hope you have better luck with yours than we had with ours. Our '96
Stratus ES (6-cyl. Mitsushitty engine) had had its timing belt replaced
(allegedly) when the water pump was replaced at about 55K miles. At 85K
the belt broke and the vehicle was deemed to be not worth fixing.
Several people have suggested that the problem was that they did not
replace the idler puller and/or tensioner when they replaced the belt --
if indeed they did replace the belt.
> If your 300M only needs the belt and water pump, $750 seems high to
> me.
Maybe they were including replacing the pulley and tensioner.
BTW, Autozone does not sell replacement tensioners for the 300M, so I
wasn't including that item in my cost of parts. And I hadn't thought
about the thermostat and hoses and other belts.
Perce
KirkM
> KirkM wrote:
> >> Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon. The dealer --
> >> which is no longer a Chrysler dealer -- quoted me $750 to replace the
> >> timing belt and water pump, presumably using over-priced "genuine Mopar"
> >> parts.
>
> >> The parts at AutoZone are less than $200, but, having read through the
> >> relevant section of the service manual, I don't think this is a job I
> >> want to tackle myself. Am I overestimating the difficulty?
>
> >> What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?
------- Snip ---------------------------------------------
> I hope you have better luck with yours than we had with ours. Our '96
> Stratus ES (6-cyl. Mitsushitty engine) had had its timing belt replaced
> (allegedly) when the water pump was replaced at about 55K miles. At 85K
> the belt broke and the vehicle was deemed to be not worth fixing.
> Several people have suggested that the problem was that they did not
> replace the idler puller and/or tensioner when they replaced the belt --
> if indeed they did replace the belt.
When I bought both my Stratus and Cirrus, I steered clear of the 2.5,
based on the
info posted on this NG. The Stratus has an early 2.4, so I had to have
the head gasket
replaced using the extended warranty that I had.
The water pump started leaking, so it made sense to replace the timing
belt at the same time.
------- Snip------------------------------------------------
-KM
Bill Putney
> KirkM wrote:
>> If your 300M only needs the belt and water pump, $750 seems high to
>> me.
>
> Maybe they were including replacing the pulley and tensioner.
Pulley (also called tensioner, which confuses a lot of people)
maybe/probably; hydraulic tensioner almost certainly was not included in
their price - but ask them.
> BTW, Autozone does not sell replacement tensioners for the 300M, so I
> wasn't including that item in my cost of parts...
That is correct - the hydraulic tensioner is a dealer-only item.
Bill Putney
> The 3.3/3.8 using a timing chain, so it is probably good until the
> engine needs rebuilding.
Is the water pump driven by the chain?
Ted Mittelstaedt
"aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-E07EEC...@news.mil.sbcglobal.net...
> In article <lleqh6-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>> "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
>> news:h2dgjs$qpk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> > Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon.
> <snip>
>> > What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent
>> > shop?
>> >
>>
>> I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD.
>> the driveway.
> <snip>
>
> Different chassis, different engine, different belt,
> different-different-different.
>
I didn't deny that. Your assuming I was talking about a timing belt, but
since as everyone knows the T&C of that year uses a 3.8, I figured
I didn't need to spell out that I was talking about the fan belt. The
OP said he looked up the procedure in a service manual, so please
give him some credit for a modicum of intelligence.
My post was merely to illustrate that it's not unusual for a DIYer to
end up spending quite a lot of time on a part of a job that would take
a pro who has done the same job many times, not a lot of time to do.
In short, that sort of thing comes with the territory of being a DIYer,
and if you want to be one, you shouldn't be afraid of that.
However, just because it takes a DIYer 6 times longer than the pro to
do the same job, doesn't mean that he shouldn't do it. What matters
is that the job is done properly. If a DIYer can do it properly and take
8 hours to do it, that's just as good as a pro taking 2 hours and doing it
properly.
Most people don't make money 24x7. They make money 40 hours a
week and the rest of the hours in the week they don't make anything at
all. If a person can save $250 by spending 8 of those non-paid hours
doing the job themself, vs paying a pro for it, it's like they are getting
paid an extra $250 for that week.
> Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
> talking about.
I think it is high because the OP said the parts cost $200 and while you may
be made out of money, I personally think $550 is a lot of money.
The way I look at these things is on one hand I can remove $550 from
my wallet and just let it float off into the breeze. On the
other I can take my weekend where I'm not being paid diddly shit and
replace a belt. The fact a pro could do a job that I normally DON'T
do faster than me doesn't intimidate me and make my penis shrink down
to a pencil.
Ted
Bob Shuman
I agree that the water pump and belts are much more easily changed compared
to the 3.2 and 3.5L engines.
Bob
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:7b22jlF...@mid.individual.net...
aarcuda69062
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> "aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:nonelson-E07EEC...@news.mil.sbcglobal.net...
> > In article <lleqh6-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
> >> news:h2dgjs$qpk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> > Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon.
> > <snip>
> >> > What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent
> >> > shop?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD.
> >> the driveway.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Different chassis, different engine, different belt,
> > different-different-different.
> >
>
> I didn't deny that. Your assuming I was talking about a timing belt,
Uh, no, look above where I state "different belt."
Since I have 20 years of experience working on the 3.3/3.8, the only
person making assumptions is you.
> > Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
> > talking about.
>
> I think it is high because the OP said the parts cost $200 and while you may
> be made out of money, I personally think $550 is a lot of money.
Also, since I have 17 years of experience working on the 3.5, I'll spell
it out for you.
Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
Timing belt $155.00
Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
Tensioner $136.00
Water pump $109.00
Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
Total $758.00
The OP said the parts cost $200 at -AutoZone-
(good grief)
Do you honestly think it's worth risking a $5000 engine job by saving
$270 on parts buying cheap crap from AutoZone?
So, while you may think $550 is a lot of money, you ignore the facts and
choose price over value.
The quote he got was dead nuts on. If he so chooses to go the cheap
parts route, he's been warned by Bill and myself. He'll be lucky to get
30,000 mile out of that rubber band AZ sells labeled as a timing belt.
As for your cheerleading and encouragement for him to do it himself...
Apparently you're not aware that the harmonic balancer needs to be
removed in order to R&R the timing belt, I have doubts that the OP
possesses the necessary puller ($200-$300) to remove it nor does he have
a reasonable means to remove (and more importantly, install) the bolt
that holds it on. And since the accessory drive belts are manually
adjusted, I doubt that he has the necessary proper belt tensioning gauge
($200) to properly adjust them.
Oh, the water pump bolts, they are 6 millimeter bolts, he'll need an
accurate inch-pound torque wrench for those. (more $$$.$$)
In spite of the fact that you have at some time in life, successfully
changed your own serpentine belt, the OP is best off to ignore your life
tales and realize that he's probably in over his head, bought a vehicle
that needs a $750 maintenance service at 105K miles and just suck it up.
'Cuz what you're selling is now where close to what he's needin'.
Bill Putney
> "aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:nonelson-E07EEC...@news.mil.sbcglobal.net...
> I think it is high because the OP said the parts cost $200 and while you may
> be made out of money, I personally think $550 is a lot of money.
He said that the parts were $200 at Autozone. You're comparing apples
and oranges. By the time a local dealer bills you the OEM parts at 20
to 30% above list when you could have gotten the same OEM parts from an
online discount dealer for 30% below list, you're definitely at more
than $200 in parts and the labor part of that isn't $550, not by dealer
math anyway.
Bill Putney
> In article <d77th6-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
>
> Timing belt $155.00
> Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
> Tensioner $136.00
> Water pump $109.00
> Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
> Total $758.00
Exactly. And my further point was that you can get the OEM parts for
less than half those prices at an online discount dealer (trade shipping
for sales tax), and lose the warranty coverage that the local installing
dealer would give you on those parts.
Hmm - I see that that price list actually does include the hydraulic
tensioner. That's good.
> ...Apparently you're not aware that the harmonic balancer needs to be
> removed in order to R&R the timing belt, I have doubts that the OP
> possesses the necessary puller ($200-$300) to remove it nor does he have
> a reasonable means to remove (and more importantly, install) the bolt
> that holds it on...
Actually I bought the right kind of puller and crank stopper in a kit
off ebay for, IIRC, $65 - worked great and I didn't have to pull the
radiator. Plus many auto parts store have them as free loaners or rentals.
aarcuda69062
Bill Putney <bp...@kinez.net> wrote:
> aarcuda69062 wrote:
> > In article <d77th6-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> > Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
> >
> > Timing belt $155.00
> > Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
> > Tensioner $136.00
> > Water pump $109.00
> > Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
> > Total $758.00
>
> Exactly. And my further point was that you can get the OEM parts for
> less than half those prices at an online discount dealer (trade shipping
> for sales tax), and lose the warranty coverage that the local installing
> dealer would give you on those parts.
If you can find a shop that will install customer supplied parts, or
will do it and not raise their labor rate to compensate for the lost
revenue on the parts. (some do)
> Hmm - I see that that price list actually does include the hydraulic
> tensioner. That's good.
I have no way of knowing if the hydraulic tensioner was included in the
OPs estimate, but for purposes of comparison.
Anyway, that is how I would/have done the job. Even on my own 3.2
> > ...Apparently you're not aware that the harmonic balancer needs to be
> > removed in order to R&R the timing belt, I have doubts that the OP
> > possesses the necessary puller ($200-$300) to remove it nor does he have
> > a reasonable means to remove (and more importantly, install) the bolt
> > that holds it on...
>
> Actually I bought the right kind of puller and crank stopper in a kit
> off ebay for, IIRC, $65 - worked great and I didn't have to pull the
> radiator. Plus many auto parts store have them as free loaners or rentals.
Works if you have enough time in advance to procure a deal off of e-bay,
if you don't get ripped off, if the tool isn't broken/pieces missing, if
the tool isn't out on loan.
Percival P. Cassidy
>>> Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
>>>
>>> Timing belt $155.00
>>> Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
>>> Tensioner $136.00
>>> Water pump $109.00
>>> Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
>>> Total $758.00
>> Exactly. And my further point was that you can get the OEM parts for
>> less than half those prices at an online discount dealer (trade shipping
>> for sales tax), and lose the warranty coverage that the local installing
>> dealer would give you on those parts.
> If you can find a shop that will install customer supplied parts, or
> will do it and not raise their labor rate to compensate for the lost
> revenue on the parts. (some do)
That would not surprise me. I had already thought of that.
>> Hmm - I see that that price list actually does include the hydraulic
>> tensioner. That's good.
>
> I have no way of knowing if the hydraulic tensioner was included in the
> OPs estimate, but for purposes of comparison.
> Anyway, that is how I would/have done the job. Even on my own 3.2
The "less than $200" was for belt, tensioner pulley and water pump.
AutoZone doesn't sell the hydraulic tensioner, and I did not know that
it is advisable to replace it as well; the Service Manual doesn't
suggest that it should be replaced at the same time -- or the pulley and
the water pump, come to that, so I don't know whether the (now ex-)
dealer's quote included the pulley and tensioner. I did specifically ask
for the water pump to be replaced at the same time.
From what I have read on the 300M forum to which Bill Putney referred
me, it appears that replacing the thermostat and radiator hoses at the
same time is advisable.
>>> ...Apparently you're not aware that the harmonic balancer needs to be
>>> removed in order to R&R the timing belt, I have doubts that the OP
>>> possesses the necessary puller ($200-$300) to remove it nor does he have
>>> a reasonable means to remove (and more importantly, install) the bolt
>>> that holds it on...
That was one of the things that made me uneasy about tackling the job
myself.
I still have 10K miles to think about it. I'll get a quote from one of
the still-authorized Chrysler dealers too. People have said that it was
cheaper to pay for the gas to and from the one 20 miles away than to pay
the local one's higher prices.
Perce
Percival P. Cassidy
> aarcuda69062 wrote:
>> I have no way of knowing if the hydraulic tensioner was included in
>> the OPs estimate, but for purposes of comparison.
>> Anyway, that is how I would/have done the job. Even on my own 3.2
>
> The "less than $200" was for belt, tensioner pulley and water pump.
> AutoZone doesn't sell the hydraulic tensioner, and I did not know that
> it is advisable to replace it as well; the Service Manual doesn't
> suggest that it should be replaced at the same time -- or the pulley and
> the water pump, come to that, so I don't know whether the (now ex-)
> dealer's quote included the pulley and tensioner. I did specifically ask
> for the water pump to be replaced at the same time.
I checked back with that (ex-) dealer and found that they were not
including replacing the pulley and hydraulic tensioner -- $70 (in stock)
and $150 (special order) respectively.
Perce
Percival P. Cassidy
> Since I have 20 years of experience working on the 3.3/3.8, the only
> person making assumptions is you.
>
>>> Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
>>> talking about.
>> I think it is high because the OP said the parts cost $200 and while you may
>> be made out of money, I personally think $550 is a lot of money.
> Also, since I have 17 years of experience working on the 3.5, I'll spell
> it out for you.
> Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
>
> Timing belt $155.00
> Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
> Tensioner $136.00
> Water pump $109.00
> Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
> Total $758.00
The original (now ex-) dealer's quote of $750 did *not* (I called and
asked) include the pulley and tensioner -- he wants another $220 for
both. So his price is waaay high by comparison with yours -- and I don't
think the labor rate has yet reached $90/hr around here.
> The OP said the parts cost $200 at -AutoZone-
> (good grief)
> Do you honestly think it's worth risking a $5000 engine job by saving
> $270 on parts buying cheap crap from AutoZone?
Can you be sure that the parts in Mopar cartons weren't also made in
China? -- perhaps even came off the same production line as the ones at
AutoZone or Advance Auto or Pep Boys? "Hey, Chang, pack 1000 of these in
Mopar cartons, 3000 in AutoZone cartons, and 2000 in Advance Auto
cartons. OK?"
And if I want to an independent shop and had the job done, is there any
guarantee that they would use Mopar parts? Would they give me separate
prices for "genuine" and "after-market?"
I am now waiting for quotes from two other dealers.
Perce
Licker
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: "Most people don't make money 24x7. They make money
anything at all. If a person can save $250 by spending 8 of those non-paid
hours
I look at it different way. My time off is valuable with things I have to
do around the home, camp or fishing or just drinking beer. I figure how
long it going to take me to tackle a job plus Mopar parts and compare it to
the cost of the dealership. If it is cheaper for me to pay the dealer then
to do it myself then I will pay the dealer. I do have the luxury of getting
a discount on Mopar parts and labor since my wife sells cars for the
dealership. If the dealers price is to high and I can get the parts I
sometimes can get a friend that is a mechanic for the dealership to complete
the work either at hid house or mine. Cost beside parts is cost of a good
home cooked meal and some beer that I help him drink.
Bottom-line is the OP realized this job is bigger then he might be willing
to take on. He asked if the price quoted is too high. If the original post
does not include the hydraulic tension pulley then the price is to high.
One sight I use to help make my decision is http://www.alldatadiy.com/. I
purchase a subscription for every vehicle I own. It has good photos and
diagrams to help you understand what you need to do.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> Also, since I have 17 years of experience working on the 3.5, I'll
>> spell it out for you.
>> Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
>>
>> Timing belt $155.00
>> Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
>> Tensioner $136.00
>> Water pump $109.00
>> Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
>> Total $758.00
> The original (now ex-) dealer's quote of $750 did *not* (I called and
> asked) include the pulley and tensioner -- he wants another $220 for
> both. So his price is waaay high by comparison with yours -- and I don't
> think the labor rate has yet reached $90/hr around here.
> I am now waiting for quotes from two other dealers.
The first of those other two dealers (still an authorized dealer) has
come back with a quote of $1240!!! for timing belt, tensioner pulley,
hydraulic tensioner and water pump (parts + labor + 6% tax).
Drain, flush and refill cooling system (standard service item at 100K
miles anyway) is another $148.
Replace thermostat and hoses is another $748! if I really want but his
"technician" (not just a mechanic; that may explain why his prices are
so high) says he's never seen a bad thermostat on one of these, so why
bother?
Perce
Bill Putney
> aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
>>>> Quoted from Mitchell On Demand
>>>>
>>>> Timing belt $155.00
>>>> Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
>>>> Tensioner $136.00
>>>> Water pump $109.00
>>>> Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
>>>> Total $758.00
This next paragraph was my quote (attribution got snipped):
>>> Exactly. And my further point was that you can get the OEM parts for
>>> less than half those prices at an online discount dealer (trade
>>> shipping for sales tax), and lose the warranty coverage that the
>>> local installing dealer would give you on those parts.
>
>> If you can find a shop that will install customer supplied parts, or
>> will do it and not raise their labor rate to compensate for the lost
>> revenue on the parts. (some do)
>
> That would not surprise me. I had already thought of that.
That may be true. And of course it's also true that some will refuse to
let you bring in parts (we've all seen the signs over the cash register
that say "Would you take eggs into a restaurant and ask them to cook
them for you?") :)
In my experience, typically when you take your parts to a shop that
agrees to install them for you, they charge the same labor. That was
the case on my 3.2. What I gained was that I got premium parts (either
OEM or best aftermarket for every single part) instead of whatever the
local auto parts store had available as their lowest-end part, and I got
the OEM/premium parts for less money than the shop would have marked up
the inferior parts to if they had supplied them.
What I lost by doing that is a guarantee on the work if a part (that I
had supplied) was bad or failed). With the best parts available, I was
willing to take my chances, and have had zero problems (3 or 4 years
later). It was more than an even trade IMO.
Perce - Seriously - try pricing the same parts at
www.mopardiscountparts.com as a comparison. I think you'll be amazed.
No sales tax, but you will pay actual shipping - typically $10 to $20 on
a large order of parts of this type. They are a dealer, and the parts
are OEM. With the exception of one part, they always have shipped the
same day I ordered - only thing I can figure is that they are just
around the corner from a warehouse. Located in OH, I live in VA - I
always get the parts the next day by UPS ground.
Bill Putney
Woah! Not including the hydraulic tensioner - OK - no big deal. But to
not replace the pulley (with its bearing) is malpractice. That's the
closest to "let's not replace anything, including the belt, until it
breaks" philosophy as you can get (other than maybe not replacing the
water pump too).
But - yeah - you're right - that does make their price ridiculous.
Thanks for reminding me why I quit going to dealers about 30 years ago.
I see things have not changed. :)
Bill Putney
> Can you be sure that the parts in Mopar cartons weren't also made in
> China? -- perhaps even came off the same production line as the ones at
> AutoZone or Advance Auto or Pep Boys? "Hey, Chang, pack 1000 of these in
> Mopar cartons, 3000 in AutoZone cartons, and 2000 in Advance Auto
> cartons. OK?"
Let's put it this way: From years of reading posts on 3 different LH car
forums, while - yes - some aftermarket parts do happen to be the same
part as the OEM, you won't find the quality going the other way, i.e.,
OEM switching to a clearly inferior part, or one that is clearly
supposed to be the same part but doesn't fit (hits or rubs something due
to a slightly different shape) - that's something you don't see on teh
OEM parts (someone will probably post with an example of where they've
seen that though). :)
Having said all that, companies in trouble will do some shady things, so
it could be that they start buying the cheapy parts and third-party
labeling them to turn them into OEM. Nothing would surprise me at this
time, but so far I have not seen evidence of that on these parts.
Bill Putney
> If the original post
> does not include the hydraulic tension pulley then the price is to high...
I agree.
For the record, there are two separate parts: The tensioner pulley, and
the hydraulic tensioner. While they work together to tension the belt,
they are two distinct parts when purchasing and installing them.
> One sight I use to help make my decision is http://www.alldatadiy.com/. I
> purchase a subscription for every vehicle I own. It has good photos and
> diagrams to help you understand what you need to do.
I also get alldata subscriptions, but as time goes on, I am not so hot
on them. *IF* you want complete schematics right out of the FSM
specific to the year and car, and if you want access to TSB's, they are
good. But I find the textual and procedural information is *so* skimpy
as to be almost worth zip towards the price of the subscription. IOW -
what info. they have is generally right out of the FSM, but what they
have in the way of test and procedures is probably less than 5% of the
information that is in the FSM - and some of that left out info. is
important.
Within the last year, they revamped the format of their information,
and, on the same vehicle subscription, I swear that the "new"
presentation makes it harder to find stuff, and even more info. is
missing than before. I very seldom recommend them to people anymore,
*unless*, again, you're mainly wanting schematics and/or TSB's - for
those two things, the info. is 100% there and straight out of the FSM.
But for the procedural stuff and specifications, it way too spotty for
me. I'm not sure I will be renewing any of my subscriptions.
IMO...
Bill Putney
> The first of those other two dealers (still an authorized dealer) has
> come back with a quote of $1240!!! for timing belt, tensioner pulley,
> hydraulic tensioner and water pump (parts + labor + 6% tax).
>
> Drain, flush and refill cooling system (standard service item at 100K
> miles anyway) is another $148.
>
> Replace thermostat and hoses is another $748! if I really want but his
> "technician" (not just a mechanic;...
Another reminder: My parts (t-belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, hyd.
tensioner, both rad. hoses, both accessory belts, t-stat) were around
$360 - all OEM or Gates, then $300 labor, which I admit could/should
have been $400-450. I did supply my own coolant - because I wanted to
make sure G-05 went in it.
That's another thing you want to insist on - G-05 coolant (Chrysler
dealer - called Mopaar 150,000 Mile Long Life, Zerex G-05, or Ford
dealer - they have several types of coolant - ask for "Premium Gold").
Bill Putney
> Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
>
>> The first of those other two dealers (still an authorized dealer) has
>> come back with a quote of $1240!!! for timing belt, tensioner pulley,
>> hydraulic tensioner and water pump (parts + labor + 6% tax).
>>
>> Drain, flush and refill cooling system (standard service item at 100K
>> miles anyway) is another $148.
>>
>> Replace thermostat and hoses is another $748! if I really want but his
>> "technician" (not just a mechanic;...
>
> Another reminder: My parts (t-belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, hyd.
> tensioner, both rad. hoses, both accessory belts, t-stat) were around
> $360 - all OEM or Gates, then $300 labor, which I admit could/should
> have been $400-450. I did supply my own coolant - because I wanted to
> make sure G-05 went in it.
Forgot to emphasize my point there, which was: My parts price may not
have looked that great compared to yours, *UNTIL* you look at what parts
I got for that money - and not inferior parts either - compared to what
the dealers are (not) including in their price. Timing belt and water
pump for - what - around $300!! And the one place wants an adder of
$748 for a t-stat and two hoses!! You've got to be kidding. I would RUN!
Percival P. Cassidy
> I am now waiting for quotes from two other dealers.
Now I have the quote from the second (still-authorized) dealer:
$1000 for belt, tensioner pulley, hydraulic tensioner and water pump.
$80 to drain, flush and refill cooling system.
$175 for thermostat and hoses -- don't think I'll bother, even at that
price.
And their labor rate is up to $90/hr. already.
I'll ask at one or two independent shops as well.
Perce
aarcuda69062
"Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote:
> The original (now ex-) dealer's quote of $750 did *not* (I called and
> asked) include the pulley and tensioner -- he wants another $220 for
> both. So his price is waaay high by comparison with yours -- and I don't
> think the labor rate has yet reached $90/hr around here.
Then I agree, their price is a bit out of line, but then again, they
aren't paying me to run their business and I'm not paying them to run
mine.
> > The OP said the parts cost $200 at -AutoZone-
> > (good grief)
> > Do you honestly think it's worth risking a $5000 engine job by saving
> > $270 on parts buying cheap crap from AutoZone?
>
> Can you be sure that the parts in Mopar cartons weren't also made in
> China? --
Yes.
> perhaps even came off the same production line as the ones at
> AutoZone or Advance Auto or Pep Boys? "Hey, Chang, pack 1000 of these in
> Mopar cartons, 3000 in AutoZone cartons, and 2000 in Advance Auto
> cartons. OK?"
Not in this case. Take my word for it, side by side, there is no
mistaking the two brands of parts.
> And if I want to an independent shop and had the job done, is there any
> guarantee that they would use Mopar parts?
Realistically, there is no guarantee that you'll take a breath tomorrow.
If you choose an independent shop, I can see no reason why they wouldn't
use OEM parts if you request them.
> Would they give me separate
> prices for "genuine" and "after-market?"
Many do though I can't speak for anyone other than myself.
> I am now waiting for quotes from two other dealers.
Working the parts quote using NAPA first line parts;
Water pump is $7 cheaper
Timing belt is $5 cheaper
Tensioner pulley is $41-$45 dollars more expensive depending on which
product line.
They don't offer the hydraulic tensioner but if they did, odds are it
would be priced higher.
You know for a fact that the OEM stuff will last for at least 95K miles
based on your own experience. The Autozone and NAPA stuff, ????
I can say, based on experience that the aftermarket stuff can and does
fail much sooner.
aarcuda69062
Bill Putney <bp...@kinez.net> wrote:
> Having said all that, companies in trouble will do some shady things, so
> it could be that they start buying the cheapy parts and third-party
> labeling them to turn them into OEM. Nothing would surprise me at this
> time, but so far I have not seen evidence of that on these parts.
They are doing essentially that now, Mopar calls it the "value line" or
some such.
AC Delco has their "all makes, all models."
Both are very equal to the dimestore Autozone crap.