Possibly useful suggestions re RJ subgroup (long)
Philip Hart
rec.arts.sf.written.jordan (increasing reasonability):
1. The current system annoys heretics, I mean non-Jordan fans.
2. It's not technically feasible - too many periods.
3. It's technically unattractive - have to be alt.fan.jordan
4. Asimov doesn't have to go to bed early - I mean, get another group.
5. Not another newsgroup!
6. It would take an unreasonable amount of time (n hours) to set up.
7. It's a brief fad.
8. It introduces new readers to Jordan.
9. If you don't like the posts, it's simple to kill them.
My responses, as a non-Jordan fan:
1. Ok, not very serious.
2. Ditto - see rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic etc.
3. What about rec.arts.books.tolkien? But see 5. below.
4. Ditto for Heinlein. I've only heard this From: ju...@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov
(Julie Kangas). Ok, I hate Asimov and especially Heinlein more than the
next guy, but it's easy to ignore the posts about them, and the occasional
bashing post is worth reading. Does anybody bash Jordan? Or point out
plot inconsistencies / grammer mistakes / stylistic weaknesses?
As is done to Donaldson and Card, for example. These are four authors
who I have serious reservations about, but would recommend to enthusiatic
sf readers if for no other reason than because they are influential and
a point of common comparison. Is Jordan, or should he be, a point of
reference? See below.
5. My feelings too, but in view of rec.sport.cricket.scores and so forth...
6. These n hours would have to be weighed against the inconvenience or
annoyance of r.a.s.w. readers. A poll, anyone?
7. The last two months, plus about three more, I guess, now that the new
book's out. (No offense, but I can't find it in myself to be amused by
the comments in It's Here etc. to the effect 'look out, we're going to flood
r.a.s.w. :^)'. And does the entire world need to hear about the fact that
some Waldenbooks clerk somewhere was mistaken about not having it?) So
that's at least five months of annoyance every year and a half or so. And
if the Jordan fans are really serious about his works, won't they be able to
sustain a newsgroup? Tolkein seems to, years after his death, on the basis
of far fewer pages than Jordan is producing. And what about after this
series? And what about his Conan novels?
8. All I can say regarding this is, being annoyed by something or simply
having too many people tell me to check it out despite its length and
lack of critical approbation (I assume, at least. Jordan hasn't made
it to France yet, so I can't see if anyone whose opinion I trust has a
"best thing since Tolkein" blurb on the back.) is not likely to make me
read something. See below.
9. True, for many, even if it does waste some time and disk space. I
am on a vms system, however, and my newsreader is slow and ungainly.
When I try killing the 336 Jordan posts on r.a.s.w., it gets very upset.
Ok, this is my problem, but do I even want to kill every Jordan post?
See below.
8.,9.
How can you cross-pollinate people if you've made them kill every single
post concerning Jordan?
I'm fairly well-read in Literature and sf, and fairly articulate, and if I
like a book I tell my friends to read it or give it to them as a present:
presumably the kind of person Jordan fans would be happy to have join the
club. Now, I'm unlikely to put another book about a post-nuclear war world
or another Tolkein-derived or -related miniseries at the top of my list
ahead of Angela Carter or Olaf Stapledon or whoever. Especially not if its
only recommendation is 336 posts about minutiae - lists of scantily dressed
maidens etc. (Someone put up a fake anti-Jordan post and was flamed for
claiming there were lots of s.d.m.s, but apparently it's true enough).
The other day there was a post about Jordan and Homer - if there are useful
parallels, I'd be glad to read about them. But I can't, since I killed all
the posts about him. Why should I read Jordan instead of re-reading all of
Gene Wolfe?
If people really want to make fans for Jordan, perhaps they could take the
minutiae elsewhere and cross-post occasionally, if there is information
interesting to those who haven't read his books. There could be a pointer in
the r.a.s.w. faq to the Jordan group and an explanation of why it's there.
And people could, for example, cross-post well-written (if there are any)
self-contained passages - there could be a weekly "tidbit from r.a.s.w.j" and
Jordan fans would be able to discuss what would go in it to their hearts'
content out of earshot. This would actually get more of Jordan to non-Jordan
fans, I think.
So I am in favor of moving most of the Jordan posts away to r.a.s.w.j.
or r.a.b.j. or somewhere, and leaving those that the average non-Jordan fan sf
reader would find useful, subject to 6. above, about which I know nothing.
And r.a.s.w. would be a happier place for everybody.
- Philip Hart
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This post is certified smiley-free, except for quotes.
Geoffrey A Wiseman
: annoyance of r.a.s.w. readers. A poll, anyone?
There's a straw poll out. Go out and vote.
: 8. All I can say regarding this is, being annoyed by something or simply
: having too many people tell me to check it out despite its length and
: lack of critical approbation (I assume, at least. Jordan hasn't made
The FAQ has a section called "missteps along the way", if you're
looking for what Jordan fans deem to be plot errors. And I'd be
willing to discuss anything anyone else *reasonably* wishes to
discuss as far as errors go.
: 8.,9.
: How can you cross-pollinate people if you've made them kill every single
: post concerning Jordan?
Good point.
: only recommendation is 336 posts about minutiae - lists of scantily dressed
: maidens etc. (Someone put up a fake anti-Jordan post and was flamed for
: claiming there were lots of s.d.m.s, but apparently it's true enough).
Actually, the whole point of the SDMs FAQ was pointing out that
despite the occasional reference to an SDM, they're really not there. I
mean, the heroines don't wander around in translucent clothing as a matter
of course. The FAQ pointed out the few references, but everyone's gut
reaction was "what SDMs?"
: If people really want to make fans for Jordan, perhaps they could take the
: minutiae elsewhere and cross-post occasionally, if there is information
: interesting to those who haven't read his books. There could be a pointer in
: the r.a.s.w. faq to the Jordan group and an explanation of why it's there.
: And people could, for example, cross-post well-written (if there are any)
: self-contained passages - there could be a weekly "tidbit from r.a.s.w.j" and
: Jordan fans would be able to discuss what would go in it to their hearts'
: content out of earshot. This would actually get more of Jordan to non-Jordan
: fans, I think.
Interesting. I'm still not in favor of the r.a.s.w.j, but I'm getting
closer to agreeing every day. You have a few valid points. So do the
non-split people. My main reason is that I have no desire to have the
r.a.s.w.j group accumulate a very low signal-to-noise ratio just to keep
postings going during the times in which no books are out/coming out.
--
GWis...@UoGuelph.CA - Geoffrey Wiseman
" ... I like to watch the puddles gather rain "
- No Rain, Blind Melons
" I think I'm dumb, or maybe just happy. "
- Dumb, Nirvana
" Welcome to the Machine "
- WttM, Pink Floyd
BG TRAISH
fans. He has taken into account both the views of RJ fans and RJ traffic haters.
If you skimmed it, go back and read!
Jordon fans believe that if 50%+ of the traffic in r.a.sf.w is about RJ then
people will read his books, and there is evidence to show that a small number
of people have started reading because of it. Non-RJ people actually reading the
RJ posts is another matter however. I tried reading RJ posts for a while, but
unless you have read at least one of the books, they are totally incomprehensible.
Therefore a regular post along the lines of 'Never read Robert Jordon? - Then read
this!' would be much more useful in spreading the word of the great man.
(Along with the 'Best of rec.arts.sf.jordon' post suggested by Philip Hart, and
whatever else people can think up). Even I would be willing to post 'Read RJ -
he's f***ing brilliant!!!!!' once a week if there was no/little other RJ traffic.
Why not include 'All these people found out about RJ on the net and loved him:
<list of names>'? That's bound to convince people he's worth trying.
Face it, people don't like Rj posts flooding r.a.sf.w. They split in two camps:
1) Those without decent newsreading software who can't kill RJ posts.
2) Those who can kill it, but it takes ages.
Now (1) can largely be avoided by upgrading their software. However, a large
number of these people are not expert users capable of this, nor will their
site do it for them (people should ask though!)
(2) is much more of a problem. Many people read news offline because they want
to cut down their phone bills. They download entire groups and can only then kill
things. Doubling the volume of r.a.sf.w doubles their bill for that group.
Many people have slow feeds, and killing 80 posts does take a long time.
OPINIONS: People who are keen to keep RJ posts within r.a.sf.w because they think
that it will attract new fans are just being selfish. It wastes other people's
time and money. If you want a crusade for RJ then argue coherently in r.a.sf.w
why people should read him, not force incomprehensible bandwidth down their
terminals. How would people like it if I and a group of friends started a vast
Moorcock discussion here, posting 50-100 messages a day? Moorcock's eternal
champion series is being reissued/rewritten this year, along with a dozen or
so other books. Consider the horror of a line by line comparison of editions of
over 30 books? Moorcock has tens of thousands of pages coming out just this
year, so we have some material to start on.....
[Having said that, I am grateful to RJ fans for the J word in the subject field]
--
-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=- B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk -=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-
Barry Traish 93 Stanningley Road,Armley,Leeds,LS12 3NW,UK. Tel 0532 638970
Reading: Report on Probability A - Brian Aldiss; Elvissey - Jack Womack
-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-
Stefano Pagiola
> Interesting. I'm still not in favor of the r.a.s.w.j, but I'm
> getting closer to agreeing every day. You have a few valid
> points. So do the non-split people. My main reason is that I
> have no desire to have the r.a.s.w.j group accumulate a very low
> signal-to-noise ratio just to keep postings going during the
> times in which no books are out/coming out.
I too initially didn't see the need for a separate newsgroup. I have
killfiles; I use them. And Jordan posters have been very good about
putting "Jordan" in the subject line. But its taking longer and
longer to kill all those Jordan posts. The volume of Jordan posts is
pretty much at that of the r.a.sf.starwars group (which,
incidentally, seems to do quite well although no new movies have been
issued in a decade).
If cross-pollenization is the argument, I can assure you that I'm
much more likely to read an occasional cross-post or even a regularly
cross-posted Jordan FAQ than I am to read *any* of the 50-100 daily
Jordan posts. Besides, as it is right now I'm never going to see any
cross-pollenization because all Jordan posts are automatically
(albeit slowly) killed.
--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spag...@leland.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
spag...@FRI-nxt-Pagiola.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Julie Kangas
>
>OPINIONS: People who are keen to keep RJ posts within r.a.sf.w because they think
>that it will attract new fans are just being selfish. It wastes other people's
>time and money.
People who try to keep *any* book or author off of r.a.sf.w are
being selfish. This group is for discussion of all sf works, not
just what *you* want to see. I think that discussions of Heinlein,
Donaldson, Asimov, Clarke, Card, Bear, LeGuin, Tepper, Lackey...
are a waste of MY time and money. Who says my wishes shouldn't take
precedent over yours?
(And come on, are you really whining about wasting time and money
while reading a rec group? Get real. And put Jordan in the header, ok?)
Julie
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Roly poly fish | Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone renounced
heads told me what to write. | violence forever? I could then conquer the
yum! | whole stupid planet with just a butter knife.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melissa A. Horn
B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk (BG TRAISH) wrote:
(lots o' stuff in favor of a RJ newsgroup deleted)
> How would people like it if I and a group of friends started a vast
> Moorcock discussion here, posting 50-100 messages a day? Moorcock's eternal
> champion series is being reissued/rewritten this year, along with a dozen or
> so other books. Consider the horror of a line by line comparison of editions of
> over 30 books? Moorcock has tens of thousands of pages coming out just this
> year, so we have some material to start on.....
>
> [Having said that, I am grateful to RJ fans for the J word in the subject field]
>
(sig deleted)
Uh-oh, wrong question. How would I feel if people started posting hundreds
of messages about Moorcock and I didn't want to read them? I say, put
Moorcock in the title and GO FOR IT! Every day, I delete messages about
authors and books I don't want to read about, lots of them about the same
author, or book, or world, or galaxy, or even about whether somebody is a
hack or not, (a purely subjective judgement IMHO).
So, post away! And those of us who like Jordan will do the same.
--
Melissa A. Horn
Welch Medical Library
mh...@library.welch.jhu.edu
Joseph Shaw
>people will read his books, and there is evidence to show that a small number
>of people have started reading because of it. Non-RJ people actually reading
>the RJ posts is another matter however. I tried reading RJ posts for a while,
>but unless you have read at least one of the books, they are totally
>incomprehensible.
I don't think we've been arguing that people will read RJ because of the
major volume; we're arguing that people might read RJ because they keep
seeing us talk about it. If they see only a couple posts a week on with
JORDAN in the subject, almost all will skip over them, esp. ones who've
never heard of him. If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
day, many more will wonder what they're missing. The same applies to
any other author/series as well, not just RJ. I had never read any
Donaldson before I started reading this group, and it was only the
fact that my killfile was killing Donaldson posts on a regular basis
for a while that made me start reading the posts to see what he was
about.
>Therefore a regular post along the lines of 'Never read Robert Jordon? -
>Then read this!' would be much more useful in spreading the word of the
>great man. (Along with the 'Best of rec.arts.sf.jordon' post suggested
>by Philip Hart, and whatever else people can think up). Even I would be
>willing to post 'Read RJ - he's f***ing brilliant!!!!!' once a week if
>there was no/little other RJ traffic.
First, see my point above. Second, every time someone posts 'Read X -
he's f***ing brilliant!!!' will generate more posts asking what makes
him so great, or saying "No, he's terrible" or "he's a Tolkien rippoff"
and you'll still end of with Jordan discussions, even if someone always
points them to the RJ group. Third, many of us here on r.a.s.w won't
pick up a book based on such a simple recommendation as 'XX is brilliant'
Fourth, many people don't read FAQ type posting anyway (with apologies
to FAQ maintainers everywhere). The main complaint here is the volume -
see below.
[...]
>Face it, people don't like Rj posts flooding r.a.sf.w. They split in two camps:
>
>1) Those without decent newsreading software who can't kill RJ posts.
>2) Those who can kill it, but it takes ages.
>
>Now (1) can largely be avoided by upgrading their software. However, a large
>number of these people are not expert users capable of this, nor will their
>site do it for them (people should ask though!)
Is this any reason to change a system that works well for the large majority?
>(2) is much more of a problem. Many people read news offline because they want
>to cut down their phone bills. They download entire groups and can only then
>kill things. Doubling the volume of r.a.sf.w doubles their bill for that group.
>Many people have slow feeds, and killing 80 posts does take a long time.
This make absolutely no sense to me. Are you trying to tell me that
downloading an entire group and killing off line is _quicker_ (and hence
cheaper) than downloading just the subjects and then downloading the
subset of articles that weren't killed? Or are offline newsreaders
really so archaic/simplistic that they down have the capability to
kill on-line? If this is true, there is a very serious problem somewhere,
and it's not with the JORDAN posts.
>OPINIONS: People who are keen to keep RJ posts within r.a.sf.w because
>they think that it will attract new fans are just being selfish. It wastes
>other people's time and money. If you want a crusade for RJ then argue
>coherently in r.a.sf.w why people should read him, not force incomprehensible
>bandwidth down their terminals. How would people like it if I and a group of
>friends started a vast Moorcock discussion here, posting 50-100 messages a
>day? Moorcock's eternal champion series is being reissued/rewritten this year,
>along with a dozen or so other books. Consider the horror of a line by line
>comparison of editions of over 30 books? Moorcock has tens of thousands of
>pages coming out just this year, so we have some material to start on.....
By all means, feel free. Go for it. Have fun! All I ask is one small
thing: put "Moorcock" in the subject so everyone who doesn't like/read
Moorcock can kill them. Most of us would be content with that. Of course,
there would be a few crying 'make a moorcock group', I expect. Then we
have this discussion all over again... and for the next author creating
a hubbub, etc., resulting in lots of special-interest groups, a tendancy
already remarked upon several times by others.
>Having said that, I am grateful to RJ fans for the J word in the subject field
The major concern here is the huge volume of Jordan posts. Granted, it has
been overwhelming the past couple weeks. But was it this bad all along?
If it was, people would have been calling for a separate group much more
often. I maintain that the huge volume was/is due solely to the impending/
recent release of the next book. Some of us got a bit carried away; much
of the recent volume was due to less serious topics than normal, filled with
many inside jokes that non-Jordan fans would be put off by. I believe that
this abundance of 'worthless' posts contributed to the complaints against us,
esp from those who don't kill all JORDAN posts. I've seen the same type of
behaviour many times before on other groups, and perhaps here as well.
Always, its a relatively short 'phase' die-hard fans of something go through.
The number of JORDAN posts will drop to more normal levels soon when our
excitement wears down. There will still be constant posts, but at a much
more reasonable volume, filled with much more reasonable speculation/
analysis that shouldn't raise so much ire, and at a volume that doesn't
require a separate newsgroup.
All IMHO, of course.
- Joe
--
Joseph Shaw | "And further still at an unearthly height
GTA/Grad. Student | One luminary clock against the sky
Computer Science | Proclaimed the time was neither wrong nor right.
Virginia Tech | I have been one acquainted with the night." - R Frost
BG TRAISH
: I think that discussions of Heinlein,
: Donaldson, Asimov, Clarke, Card, Bear, LeGuin, Tepper, Lackey...
: are a waste of MY time and money.
That sounds like an excellent reason to have a separate Jordon group!!
: Who says my wishes shouldn't take
: precedent over yours?
Julie rants on again, poor persecuted girl, but isn't she bearing up
well under all that constructive advice that Philip Hart and I gave
her?
Rick Kleffel
>Philip Hart makes lots of sensible points about a new group for Robert Jordon
>fans. He has taken into account both the views of RJ fans and RJ traffic haters.
>If you skimmed it, go back and read!
No. Each day when my killfile eliminates Jordan posts, I smile at the wonders
of modern technology. I'm also amazed at the amount of text devoted to this
pablum, but then, you've gotta feed a baby. I can ignore it.
>Jordon fans believe that if 50%+ of the traffic in r.a.sf.w is about RJ then
>people will read his books, and there is evidence to show that a small number
>of people have started reading because of it.
This, however, is too incredibly offensive an attitude to ignore. This is not
far from Xtians posting to an atheist group, flooding it with gospels in hopes
that the unbelievers will be converted. This kind of bald proselytizing in
the name of a *modern generic Celtic Fantasy writer* is a dangerous, perhaps
communicable form of madness.
>Therefore a regular post along the lines of 'Never read Robert Jordon? -
>Then read
>this!' would be much more useful in spreading the word of the great man.
Don't give them ideas. It sounds like they might take you up. Hey, he's a
friggin' writer, not a deity. And if you think he is a deity, you need a
quick course in English lit and a reality check. Contact your local community
college, they can help.
>(Along with the 'Best of rec.arts.sf.jordon' post suggested by Philip Hart, and
>whatever else people can think up). Even I would be willing to post 'Read RJ -
>he's f***ing brilliant!!' once a week if there was no/little other RJ traffic.
Jeezus! He's been assimilated! Quick, Data...Oh never mind.
>Why not include 'All these people found out about RJ on the net and loved him:
><list of names>'? That's bound to convince people he's worth trying.
That's bound to convince people that some others have no taste or judgement.
>1) Those without decent newsreading software who can't kill RJ posts.
They are in hell, and to be pitied.
>2) Those who can kill it, but it takes ages.
We are in purgatory, but you are the lost.
>People who are keen to keep RJ posts within r.a.sf.w because they think
>that it will attract new fans are just being selfish. It wastes other people's
Exactly! Beyond selfish, stupid beyond belief! I promise to buy&burn some
RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*, as long
as these slimey xtian/jordanians-- aye yi yi, what a thought -- continue to
torment us and try to bury us beneath a mountain of garbage.
>[Having said that, I am grateful to RJ fans for the J word in the subject field]
It comes to the point where one must be thankful that maniacs have not kidnapped
one's family. Sheesh. Jordan? *JORDAN?* Why not Brooks, and A. A. Milne
and the freakin' Wizard of OZ? At least they have a track record. The only
record that Jordan has left is a swath of destruction through the forests which
were ground up to become his Fantasy version of Harlequin Romances.
Don't get a life, folks -- you may not be able to take it.
Apply wheelchair ramps for the humor impaired wherever necessary. Restrictions
may apply in some states [conscious]. Your mileage may vary. Use your seatbelt.
--
Rick Kleffel*System Administrator*E-Mu Systems, Scotts Valley, Ca*ri...@emu.com*
Patrick Nielsen-Hayden
ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
>I promise to buy&burn some
>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
several.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden, senior editor, Tor Books
p...@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * opinions mine
Philip Hart
^^^^
I guess I wasn't joking...
Joe Shaw, Robert Frost and Jordan fan replies to B.G.Traish:
>>Jordon fans believe that if 50%+ of the traffic in r.a.sf.w is about RJ then
>>people will read his books [...]
>I don't think we've been arguing that people will read RJ because of the
>major volume; [...]
Oh? See below.
>we're arguing that people might read RJ because they keep
>seeing us talk about it. If they see only a couple posts a week on with
>JORDAN in the subject, almost all will skip over them, esp. ones who've
>never heard of him.
>If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
>day, many more will wonder what they're missing. The same applies to
How many per day? 40? 80? Of course popularity = quality.
If you really think that many readers will never read a single one
of r.a.s.w.j's intriguing cross-posts, and you have to cram it down
their throats, why not do a daily cross-post? Or twice daily?
>[...] Second, every time someone posts 'Read X -
>he's f***ing brilliant!!!' will generate more posts asking what makes
>him so great, or saying "No, he's terrible" or "he's a Tolkien rippoff"
>and you'll still end of with Jordan discussions, even if someone always
>points them to the RJ group.
Occasional, acceptable, even desirable - an improvement.
> Third, many of us here on r.a.s.w won't
>pick up a book based on such a simple recommendation as 'XX is brilliant'
^^^^^
Please - I assume you can back up your devotion to Jordan. Put up or ...
>Fourth, many people don't read FAQ type posting anyway (with apologies
>to FAQ maintainers everywhere). The main complaint here is the volume -
>see below.
People will at least check out a weekly or biweekly post with an interesting
title.
People won't read a series they don't hear about because they've killed all
postings about it and/or which causes annoying floods.
[...]
>>Face it, people don't like Rj posts flooding r.a.sf.w.They split in two camps
more than that, actually...
>>1) Those without decent newsreading software who can't kill RJ posts.
>>2) Those who can kill it, but it takes ages.
>>
>>Now (1) can largely be avoided by upgrading their software. However, a large
>>number of these people are not expert users capable of this, nor will their
>>site do it for them (people should ask though!)
>Is this any reason to change a system that works well for the large majority?
If it really annoys a sizable minority it is.
>>(2) is much more of a problem. Many people read news offline because they
>>want to cut down their phone bills. They download entire groups and can only
>>then kill things. Doubling the volume of r.a.sf.w doubles their bill for that
>>group. Many people have slow feeds, and killing 80 posts does take a long
>>time.
>This make absolutely no sense to me [...]
>If this is true, there is a very serious problem somewhere,
>and it's not with the JORDAN posts.
`We're creating an annoyance but it's someone else's fault so ...'
"We should look into this" - "If this isn't easily fixed I'll withdraw
my objections to a new group" - etc. not omitted.
>> How would people like it if I and a group of
>>friends started a vast Moorcock discussion here, posting 50-100 messages a
>day?
>By all means, feel free. Go for it. Have fun! [...]
`There's obviously no problem - _I'm_ happy - so let's really annoy the
unlucky people who dislike Jordan posts.'
>All IMHO, of course.
>- Joe
Apologies if I've taken extreme readings of your statements - but
it seemed to me you were doing the same to B. G. Traish. Yours,
Philip Hart
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There would be more than ocean water broken
Before God's last "Put out the light" was spoken.
The real Robert
BG TRAISH
: we're arguing that people might read RJ because they keep
: seeing us talk about it.
[...]
: If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
: day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
THIS IS JUST SAYING, "WE WANT PEOPLE TO READ RJ, THEREFORE THERE SHOULD
BE A LARGE NUMBER OF POSTS ABOUT HIM." WHAT ARE THESE POSTS ABOUT THOUGH?
MOST ARE MINUTE TRIVIA, NOT SAYING "RJ IS GREAT BECAUSE..."
: [...] every time someone posts 'Read X -
: he's f***ing brilliant!!!' will generate more posts asking what makes
: him so great
WHAT'S THE MATTER, AFRAID YOU CAN ONLY SAY, "RJ IS GREAT COS, ERM, COS HE IS!"?
IF THERE WAS THE OCCASIONAL THREAD SAYING, "WHY IS RJ GOOD?", NO ONE WOULD MIND.
WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS 80 MESSAGES A DAY SAYING "YIPPPEEE! BOOK n IS OUT!" OR
"PAGE 465 AND PAGE 333 ARE INCONSISTANT BECAUSE..."
: Is this any reason to change a system that works well for the large majority?
FROM THE TRAFFIC DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT THERE SHOULD BE A JORDON SUBGROUP, I
THINK THAT THE SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK WELL AT ALL
JUST ONE MORE THING.....
don't forget to vote in the 'Do you want a new group
for Jordon straw poll?' Mail 'yes' or 'no' to
po...@dragon.dsh.org by 8pm EDT on 17th November.
coz...@garnet.berkeley.edu
Joseph Shaw <joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu> wrote:
>
>... we're arguing that people might read RJ because they keep
>seeing us talk about it. ....
Well, we won't, you know. We keep seeing you talking about it and I['m
sorry, you have already reached the few who might think "Hey, I might
check this out." The rest of us have already attained the overload
stage. We don't care who is really a What, we don't care who done what
to whom, in fact, we have long since invoked the Eight Deadly Words:
"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
>In article <1993Oct11.1...@bradford.ac.uk> B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk (BG TRAISH) writes:
>>....I tried reading RJ posts for a while,
>>but unless you have read at least one of the books, they are totally
>>incomprehensible.
I have read one of the books and the discussion is still totally
incomprehensible.
Joe continues,
>The number of JORDAN posts will drop to more normal levels soon when our
>excitement wears down. ....
Lord, I hope you're right. It seems from where I stand that Jordan,
having figured out what side of the butter the bread is on, is going
to go on putting out more volumes full of more enigmas, calculated
to keep his readers buying books as fast as they come out and picking
all these little nits on the net in between volumes.
Dorothy Heydt
(still posting from cozzlab because rn is broken on uclink)
Geoffrey A Wiseman
: : [...] every time someone posts 'Read X -
: : he's f***ing brilliant!!!' will generate more posts asking what makes
: : him so great
: WHAT'S THE MATTER, AFRAID YOU CAN ONLY SAY, "RJ IS GREAT COS, ERM, COS HE IS!"?
: IF THERE WAS THE OCCASIONAL THREAD SAYING, "WHY IS RJ GOOD?", NO ONE WOULD MIND.
: WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS 80 MESSAGES A DAY SAYING "YIPPPEEE! BOOK n IS OUT!" OR
: "PAGE 465 AND PAGE 333 ARE INCONSISTANT BECAUSE..."
No, but the original suggestion (although not entirely serious) was to
post a message to say "read X - he's F***ing brilliant", with basically no
reasons, other than the subject.
--
GWIS...@UOGUELPH.CA - Geoffrey Wiseman
"I don't understand why I sleep all day, and I start to complain
that there's no rain. And all I can do is read a book to stay
awake; It rips my life away, but it's a great escape ... "
Geoffrey A Wiseman
: No. Each day when my killfile eliminates Jordan posts, I smile at the wonders
: of modern technology. I'm also amazed at the amount of text devoted to this
: pablum, but then, you've gotta feed a baby. I can ignore it.
don't like RJ, then don't talk about him. No need to get insulting.
: >Jordon fans believe that if 50%+ of the traffic in r.a.sf.w is about RJ then
: >people will read his books, and there is evidence to show that a small number
: >of people have started reading because of it.
: This, however, is too incredibly offensive an attitude to ignore. This is not
: far from Xtians posting to an atheist group, flooding it with gospels in hopes
: that the unbelievers will be converted. This kind of bald proselytizing in
: the name of a *modern generic Celtic Fantasy writer* is a dangerous, perhaps
: communicable form of madness.
Well, if you believe that RJers are posting for the sole reason that the
volume will encourage new readres, sure. If you assume that most/all of
these posts are not for that reason, but rather that this is a side effect
of the posts, the attitude you mentionned would not come in to play.
There is a little low signal-to-noise right now over the excitement from a
new book, but most posts are serious and sincere.
: >Therefore a regular post along the lines of 'Never read Robert Jordon? -
: >Then read
: >this!' would be much more useful in spreading the word of the great man.
: Don't give them ideas. It sounds like they might take you up. Hey, he's a
: friggin' writer, not a deity. And if you think he is a deity, you need a
: quick course in English lit and a reality check. Contact your local community
: college, they can help.
Once again, I remember that you suggested replies go to alt.flame.
Somehow I'm not surprised. Your post seems to be composed largely
of unreasoning hatred (or at least dislike) for Jordan and his readers.
We'll take a reality check if you get counseling.
: >[Having said that, I am grateful to RJ fans for the J word in the
subject field]
: It comes to the point where one must be thankful that maniacs have not kidnapped
: one's family. Sheesh. Jordan? *JORDAN?* Why not Brooks, and A. A. Milne
: and the freakin' Wizard of OZ? At least they have a track record. The only
: record that Jordan has left is a swath of destruction through the forests which
: were ground up to become his Fantasy version of Harlequin Romances.
Case ... and point.
--
GWis...@UoGuelph.CA - Geoffrey Wiseman
" ... I like to watch the puddles gather rain "
- No Rain, Blind Melons
Pam Korda
>record that Jordan has left is a swath of destruction through the forests
which
>were ground up to become his Fantasy version of Harlequin Romances.
>
Excuse me? have you read any of these books? have you read any Harlequin
Romances? what is the similarity?
>Apply wheelchair ramps for the humor impaired wherever necessary.
Restrictions
>may apply in some states [conscious]. Your mileage may vary. Use your
seatbelt.
um, just because a foolish man like this calls his very annoying flame a
"joke," doesn't make it any less a flame or any less rude. Why do you think you
have any right to be so nasty to people you don't know? At least the jordan
posters are polite. I would like to suggest that people making such irritating
posts include a header like "FLAME: *******" so that everybody else on the
newsgroup can put it in their killfiles. this sort of post irritates me more
than any thousand jordan posts ever did.
>Rick Kleffel*System Administrator*E-Mu Systems, Scotts Valley, Ca*ri...@emu.com*
sorry to inform you, dude, but your "humor" is not funny.
==============================================================================
Pam Korda |"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into
ko...@midway.uchicago.edu | the Shadow with teeth bared, to spit in
| Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."
==============================================================================
Jason Eric Pierce
>
>ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
>
>>I promise to buy&burn some
>>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
>
>An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
>several.
I would just like to add my complete and total agreement on this subject.
While we're at it, let's see if the public libraries will part with
there copies so all this mindless drivel will be contained. We could
have a synchronized around-the-world-Jordan-goes-up-in-smoke-and-it-
makes-me-smile-just-to-think-about-it bonfire.
I'll bring the marshmellows if you bring the hot dogs.
It's not censorship that's bad(it's just who you do it to),
Jason Eric Pierce
Ken Warkentyne
can you folks please keep "Jordan" in the subject line?
By the way, for those who download the entire newsgroup to "save money
on connection time", you would do better to download the headers
and fetch only the articles you want to read.
--
Ken Warkentyne - war...@ltisun.epfl.ch
Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
Derek J. Middleton
[misc. drivel munched]
: I have read one of the books and the discussion is still totally
: incomprehensible.
An entire book? Wow, you must be an expert on them..
: Lord, I hope you're right. It seems from where I stand that Jordan,
: having figured out what side of the butter the bread is on, is going
: to go on putting out more volumes full of more enigmas, calculated
: to keep his readers buying books as fast as they come out and picking
: all these little nits on the net in between volumes.
It's all so clear now! All i needed is someone who read an ENTIRE
book in the series to tell me what's going on..
: Dorothy Heydt
use a killfile...
--
#include <standard.disclaimer>
#include <silly.quote>
#define email midd...@cps.msu.edu
Rick Kleffel
>I don't think we've been arguing that people will read RJ because of the
>major volume; we're arguing that people might read RJ because they keep
>seeing us talk about it.
Why do you care what we read? I'm not flooding you with proselytizing
posts trying to force you to see that Jordan is third rate tired crud.
If you think seeing you guys talk about something is going to make
me read, step over to the bar here and let me buy you a clue. This behavior
is expected of evangelical xtians on a rampage, not r.a.sf.w readers.
>If they see only a couple posts a week on with
>JORDAN in the subject, almost all will skip over them, esp. ones who've
>never heard of him.
Yup. But nobody, read NOBODY has not heard of Jordan, Jesus or G. Gordon
Liddy. I want *YOU* to join me in the worship of G. Gordon, who gave up
his credibilty that he might be able to get bit parts in bad movies and
TV shows. Truly, he has sacrificed for us. Can't you *SEE* that?
>If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
>day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
Bud, you need what we here call a "Truth Turns to Fiction" button. Any,
I mean any slight possible interest I might have had in Jordan has been
so thoroughly quashed that Frankenstein, Crick & Watson and the Mayo clinic
couldn't bring it back to life. Your deluge of posts is so blindingly
pathetic, it pointsd out that the fiction must be even more so.
>The same applies to
>any other author/series as well, not just RJ. I had never read any
>Donaldson before I started reading this group
And you were a happier person, right?
>, and it was only the
>fact that my killfile was killing Donaldson posts on a regular basis
>for a while that made me start reading the posts to see what he was
>about.
I take it you don't believe in going to bookstores and talking to those
who work there -- at least at the decent, independantly owned SF oriented
bookstores -- and finding out what's up in the genre you're interested in.
>Is this any reason to change a system that works well for the large majority?
This question gets asked a lot usually before a violent revolution in which
an oppresive government, run by a minority of power-mongers, is disemboweled
before the cheering oppressed masses. I'm actually curious as to how many
or more likely, few posters, are generating this huge volume.
What's wrong with your own damn alt.slavish.fan.jordan newsgroup? You could
simultaneously create alt.slavish.fan.niven, a.s.f.donaldson, a.s.f.alien....
Frankly I'm not al that concerned about, having a killfile and all, but the
pompous, self-serving evangelical attitude of Jordan supporters is
phenomenally selfish. [Read: posting from .edu sites.]
--
Rick Kleffel
>
>um, just because a foolish man like this calls his very annoying flame a
Annoying? You call this annoying!??? Let me write a sheel script that
varies this slightly, and posts it about 70 times a day so that you sit
and watch your kill file slay all these redundant, inane posts, *THEN*
you can call this post ANNOYING. Until then, it is merely rude, and in
my own peculiar slang, bilious.
>"joke," doesn't make it any less a flame or any less rude.
And let me correct you on this count as well. While this flame did have
some ironic prose, it was not a joke. The attitude of the Jordan set is
childish at best and obsessive at worst. If you found that message rude and
annoying, well, maybe this is an exsception in your communication exxchanges,
but you did in fact, get the point.
>Why do you think you
>have any right to be so nasty to people you don't know?
Because, last I heard, freedom of expression was pretty much permitted on the
net. And because my opinion, while having no factual basis [one thing all
opinions have in common], is in fact something that I would like to express.
Fantasy dreck is fantasy dreck, period. SF dreck is SF dreck, and horror
dreck is horror dreck, genre dreck is genre dreck, and DRECK IS DRECK. And,
becuase, while it is admittedly unlikely, there is at least the slight
possibility that some of the Jordanians who insist upon filling up the group
with messages in hope of finding new converts might in fact find in this
bitter bilious prose and my acidic commentary, something called a clue. And
if they take that clue to heart, they may realize that they are being
selfish, evangelical and more obnoxious than even the most inflammatory
message *I* could write. I annoy with highly concentrated pieces of prose;
imagine if you will, my shell script posting hundreds of messages in the bland
goody-goody style you're using. Which is more annoying to wade through? Mine?
Good.
>At least the jordan
>posters are polite.
All those who attempt to convert the heathen are. Until they take out their
guns and convert 'em the good old fashioned ways, with a whup upside the head
and a bullet in the kneecap. Save your bullets for yourself, please. You'll
need 'em.
>I would like to suggest that people making such irritating
>posts include a header like "FLAME: *******" so that everybody else on the
>newsgroup can put it in their killfiles.
I would like to suggest that those have puerile, childish and stunted-growth
messages wear Bullwinkle Antlers in their heads when posting, pat their tummies
and rub their heads simultaneously, then log off the system immediately and
go read some of that English Lit homework you've been ignoring in favor
of Robert Jordan.
>this sort of post irritates me more
>than any thousand jordan posts ever did.
You have made my day.
>sorry to inform you, dude, but your "humor" is not funny.
Like humor, life is mean and hurtful. I suggest you continue to try to
avoid both.
Was I like this when I was a student?
Probably. One must learn to be this obnoxious.
--
Roy Navarre
>The attitude of the Jordan set is
>childish at best and obsessive at worst.
Childish at best? Oh yea!?
Bite me!
You dweeb, your mother wears army boots!
Roy (you started it, did so, did so did so did so did so!)
Al Brackett--FAbracketO OPS--232-7620--DGC
>>
>>um, just because a foolish man like this calls his very annoying flame a
>
>
sixtytwo lines of bullsh*t from both sides of this flamewar
deleted ****
-------------------------------
>Was I like this when I was a student?
>
>Probably. One must learn to be this obnoxious.
>--
>Rick Kleffel*System Administrator*E-Mu Systems, Scotts Valley, Ca*ri...@emu.com*
Well if you indeed learned to be as obnoxious as you were in this
post then you must have been a good student..
I have read RJ in the Books he is doing now. And I enjoy them .
If you don't thats ok with me, KILL them , or use the "N" key and go
past them.
You have a problem with the guys(gals) that are posting 10's of
JORDON posts at a time(so you say), OK FINE. I don't like being put in
a generalised catagory(Ihate JORDON readers that do this, all you
JORDON readers do that). Well you can hate if it makes you feel good.
I would think you might have more important things to do.
You said that the right of free speech was still on the net,
Thats right so let the JORDON posters, post.
--
regards/ al
--
Did I drop my .sig in the coffee??? Al Brackett
N1IQQ @ KA1RCI.RI (for those that know) abra...@dg-webo.webo.dg.com
Work For Peace / Plan For Conflict / You can't WIN if You don't TRY
[insert] Standard Disclamer Here< > BLESS / PEACE
John A Zervos
: Patrick Nielsen-Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
: >
: >ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
: >
: >>I promise to buy&burn some
: >>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
: >
: >An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
: >several.
: I would just like to add my complete and total agreement on this subject.
: While we're at it, let's see if the public libraries will part with
: there copies so all this mindless drivel will be contained. We could
: have a synchronized around-the-world-Jordan-goes-up-in-smoke-and-it-
: makes-me-smile-just-to-think-about-it bonfire.
Boy I must have lived a sheltered life. I thought the Nazis lost
WWII. I guess education and a desire to learn can be dropped right
on the top of that pile you're making.
Wake me when you put the bible on. Course you'd have to visit
quite a few motels. Then again you might be doing that anyway.
"It tells me that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try reading
books instead of burning them." - Dr. Jones
David Wren-Hardin
>Jason Eric Pierce (jep...@tamsun.tamu.edu) wrote:
>: Patrick Nielsen-Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>: >
>: >ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
>: >
>: >>I promise to buy&burn some
>: >>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
>: >
>: >An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
>: >several.
>: I would just like to add my complete and total agreement on this subject.
>: While we're at it, let's see if the public libraries will part with
>: there copies so all this mindless drivel will be contained. We could
>: have a synchronized around-the-world-Jordan-goes-up-in-smoke-and-it-
>: makes-me-smile-just-to-think-about-it bonfire.
>
> Boy I must have lived a sheltered life. I thought the Nazis lost
>WWII. I guess education and a desire to learn can be dropped right
>on the top of that pile you're making.
> Wake me when you put the bible on. Course you'd have to visit
>quite a few motels. Then again you might be doing that anyway.
>
It's an official flame war now, the Nazi's have been mentioned ;-)
>
> "It tells me that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try reading
>books instead of burning them." - Dr. Jones
>
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
David Wren-Hardin
>>At least the jordan
>>posters are polite.
>
>All those who attempt to convert the heathen are. Until they take out their
>guns and convert 'em the good old fashioned ways, with a whup upside the head
>and a bullet in the kneecap. Save your bullets for yourself, please. You'll
>need 'em.
Um, I think a couple of people mentioned that a high volume of Jordan
posts might turn people on to him, but believe me, we are not posting
to 'recruit' people. Really. Honest. Pay no attention to the man behind
the curtain.
>
>>I would like to suggest that people making such irritating
>>posts include a header like "FLAME: *******" so that everybody else on the
>>newsgroup can put it in their killfiles.
>
>I would like to suggest that those have puerile, childish and stunted-growth
>messages wear Bullwinkle Antlers in their heads when posting, pat their tummies
>and rub their heads simultaneously, then log off the system immediately and
>go read some of that English Lit homework you've been ignoring in favor
>of Robert Jordan.
>
*SOB* I couldn't do it ! When I try to pat my head and rub my stomach,
I either pat-pat or rub-rub !!!! How do I do this ? And do you have any
Bullwinkle antlers I could have ? Or are you too busy rubbing ? ;-)
>>this sort of post irritates me more
>>than any thousand jordan posts ever did.
>
>You have made my day.
>
>>sorry to inform you, dude, but your "humor" is not funny.
>
>Like humor, life is mean and hurtful. I suggest you continue to try to
>avoid both.
>
>>ko...@midway.uchicago.edu
>
>Was I like this when I was a student?
>
>Probably. One must learn to be this obnoxious.
>--
>Rick Kleffel*System Administrator*E-Mu Systems, Scotts Valley, Ca*ri...@emu.com*
Derek J. Middleton
: In article joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu (Joseph Shaw) writes:
: >I don't think we've been arguing that people will read RJ because of the
: >major volume; we're arguing that people might read RJ because they keep
: >seeing us talk about it.
: Why do you care what we read? I'm not flooding you with proselytizing
: posts trying to force you to see that Jordan is third rate tired crud.
: If you think seeing you guys talk about something is going to make
: me read, step over to the bar here and let me buy you a clue. This behavior
: is expected of evangelical xtians on a rampage, not r.a.sf.w readers.
Actually, a couple people HAVE mentioned that they started reading
Jordan becuase of the quantity of postings. Maybe if you actually
READ the postings and tried to post informatively..
: >If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
: >day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
: Bud, you need what we here call a "Truth Turns to Fiction" button. Any,
: I mean any slight possible interest I might have had in Jordan has been
: so thoroughly quashed that Frankenstein, Crick & Watson and the Mayo clinic
: couldn't bring it back to life. Your deluge of posts is so blindingly
: pathetic, it pointsd out that the fiction must be even more so.
Oh. I see. Since you aren't interested in it anymore, then no one
else who's sane could POSSIBLY still be interested in it. Go join
rec.arts.sf.written.only.authors.i.like...
: >, and it was only the
: >fact that my killfile was killing Donaldson posts on a regular basis
: >for a while that made me start reading the posts to see what he was
: >about.
: I take it you don't believe in going to bookstores and talking to those
: who work there -- at least at the decent, independantly owned SF oriented
: bookstores -- and finding out what's up in the genre you're interested in.
Why is going into a bookstore a more valid method of finding out about
authors than looking here?
: What's wrong with your own damn alt.slavish.fan.jordan newsgroup? You could
: simultaneously create alt.slavish.fan.niven, a.s.f.donaldson, a.s.f.alien....
Once again, you stun me with your ignorance. We HAVE discussed
creating an 'alt' group but (for reasons i'm not going to bother to
repeat) it was decided against. The wheels are being oiled for
creating a 'rec' group.
: Frankly I'm not al that concerned about, having a killfile and all, but the
: pompous, self-serving evangelical attitude of Jordan supporters is
: phenomenally selfish. [Read: posting from .edu sites.]
It only seems that way to half informed people [Read: posting from .com sites]
-Derek
Geoffrey A Wiseman
: Why do you care what we read? I'm not flooding you with proselytizing
: posts trying to force you to see that Jordan is third rate tired crud.
: If you think seeing you guys talk about something is going to make
: me read, step over to the bar here and let me buy you a clue. This behavior
: is expected of evangelical xtians on a rampage, not r.a.sf.w readers.
: Yup. But nobody, read NOBODY has not heard of Jordan, Jesus or G. Gordon
: Liddy. I want *YOU* to join me in the worship of G. Gordon, who gave up
: his credibilty that he might be able to get bit parts in bad movies and
: TV shows. Truly, he has sacrificed for us. Can't you *SEE* that?
[obnoxious ranting deleted]
: Frankly I'm not al that concerned about, having a killfile and all, but the
: pompous, self-serving evangelical attitude of Jordan supporters is
: phenomenally selfish. [Read: posting from .edu sites.]
I'm sorry. I tried hard not to waste bandwith replying to this, but I
couldn't help it. Obviously Mr. Kleffel had a bad day/week/month/century/
life, and felt the need to take it out on a poor RJ fan. Thanx for the input.
--
Geoffrey Wiseman
(Undoubtedly, none of these opinions are my own.)
BG TRAISH
: Please - I assume you can back up your devotion to Jordan. Put up or ...
I am afraid that they can't seem to. I must now assume that the only
reason to continue reading Jordon is that there is some mind-influencing
pattern in the first few pages which compels people to finish the
series and rant about. Certainly no one has put forward any other reason!
--
-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=- B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk -=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-
Barry Traish 93 Stanningley Road,Armley,Leeds,LS12 3NW,UK. Tel 0532 638970
Reading: Elvissey - Jack Womack; I, Vampire - Jody Scott
-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-
BG TRAISH
: BG TRAISH (B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk) wrote:
: : : [...] every time someone posts 'Read X -
: : : he's f***ing brilliant!!!' will generate more posts asking what makes
: : : him so great
: : WHAT'S THE MATTER, AFRAID YOU CAN ONLY SAY, "RJ IS GREAT COS, ERM, COS HE IS!"?
: : IF THERE WAS THE OCCASIONAL THREAD SAYING, "WHY IS RJ GOOD?", NO ONE WOULD MIND.
: : WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS 80 MESSAGES A DAY SAYING "YIPPPEEE! BOOK n IS OUT!" OR
: : "PAGE 465 AND PAGE 333 ARE INCONSISTANT BECAUSE..."
: No, but the original suggestion (although not entirely serious) was to
: post a message to say "read X - he's F***ing brilliant", with basically no
: reasons, other than the subject.
Oh no it wasn't! Look at the above. Your message quotes a message which is replying,
to _me_, so I should know what the original suggestion was. Go back and read thread.
My suggestion was that RJ fans should post a "Why you should read Jordon" article
now and again if they want to convert people (and this seems the ONLY reason not
to have rec.arts.sf.jordon, apart from the bureaucratic ones). Let them put up some
coherent, reasoned arguments rather than "There's loadsa traffic about RJ, he must
be God!" Read and think before you post!
BG TRAISH
: In article joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu (Joseph Shaw) writes:
: >If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
: >day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
When are the Jordon fans going to understand that this is a pile
of sh*t! A few people have, but many more have been forever put
off Jordon, because some ungracious people are ramming him down
thier throats.
BG TRAISH
: It's all so clear now! All i needed is someone who read an ENTIRE
: book in the series to tell me what's going on..
[X] You have greatly misunderstood the point of this discussion
: use a killfile...
[X] You have completely missed reasonable objections to this.
Are all Jordon readers like this? (I know they aren't because some
have appeared quite reasonable and coherent). Again I am forced to
say, Think before you post!
BG TRAISH
: In article <CEsE1...@emu.com> ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
[Flame crap from Dick Kettle deleted]
: sorry to inform you, dude, but your "humor" is not funny.
Yes, we don't need this kind of crap promoting anti-Jordon
feeling (let RJ fans do that :-)
BG TRAISH
: volume will encourage new readres, sure.
Not wishing to agree with the offensive Dick Kettle, I think his
point was that the potential recruitment factor is the sole reason
for not moving to r.a.sf.rj, rather than the reason for the
posting themselves.
And don't forget to vote in the 'Do you want a new group
for Jordon straw poll?' Mail 'yes' or 'no' to
po...@dragon.dsh.org by 8pm EDT on 17th October.
Jason Eric Pierce
Subject: Re: Ridiculous J$%#%^$ordan Poo-poo
References: <10OCT199...@vsopp4.cern.ch> <29enrc$s...@panix.com> <29fic1$q...@tamsun.tamu.edu> <29j1qh$q...@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
RICK>: >>I promise to buy&burn some
RICKK>: >>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
JEP>: I would just like to add my complete and total agreement on this subject.
>
ZERVOS> Boy I must have lived a sheltered life. I thought the Nazis lost
ZERVOS>WWII. I guess education and a desire to learn can be dropped right
ZERVOS>on the top of that pile you're making.
ZERVOS> Wake me when you put the bible on. Course you'd have to visit
ZERVOS>quite a few motels. Then again you might be doing that anyway.
>
Actually, I would be satisfied to leave the books where they are.
I think we should go for Jordan himself. They did it to the witches
why not him?? Then next we could pile on the Jordan fans. If we abso-
lutely had to, then we could add the books. They could serve as the
proof that such drastic measures were necessary.
How's that for flame warfare?
JEP
...In all seriousness, people should know when to take a thread as humor and
when to take it as a meaningful response as a question. They should
know how to differentiate between a flame and a letter just poking a
little fun at someone. Please, don't censor my censorship ;-)
This group has been to serious for to long, let's lighten it up.
Also, please note the subject line...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ridiculous J$%#%^$ordan Poo-poo
Summary:
Expires:
References: <10OCT199...@vsopp4.cern.ch> <29enrc$s...@panix.com> <29fic1$q...@tamsun.tamu.edu> <29j1qh$q...@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Keywords:
Cc:
Jason Eric Pierce
ignore the whole thing to begin with =)
JEP
Geoffrey A Wiseman
: Philip Hart (ha...@vsopp4.cern.ch) wrote:
: : Please - I assume you can back up your devotion to Jordan. Put up or ...
: I am afraid that they can't seem to. I must now assume that the only
: reason to continue reading Jordon is that there is some mind-influencing
: pattern in the first few pages which compels people to finish the
: series and rant about. Certainly no one has put forward any other reason!
What, are you just ignoring all the posts explaining why we like Jordan?
Perhaps you've been using the Kill file again?
There have been a number of reasons put forth in a number of other
threads. If you really can't find them for yourself, I'd be happy to
summarize them for you.
--
GWis...@UoGuelph.CA is also:
Sarcena@Angalon (wilbur.eng.auburn.edu 3000)
Mardoch@Infinity (infinity.lp.mud.org 3000)
[LPMUDs Forever!]
Geoffrey A Wiseman
: : No, but the original suggestion (although not entirely serious) was to
: : post a message to say "read X - he's F***ing brilliant", with basically no
: : reasons, other than the subject.
: Oh no it wasn't! Look at the above. Your message quotes a message which
is replying, : to _me_, so I should know what the original suggestion was.
Well, perhaps you know what the intent of the original message was. What
I know is how the message was interpreted by me, and by other people. The
original message said (Basically), that if no-one else wanted to do it,
then whoever it was (you?) would be happy to post a "Read Robert Jordan -
he's F!*($*#$%ing brilliant." message once a month.
(1) Although the intent to have content in this message might have
existed in the original poster's mind, this intent was not clearly stated.
I (and others, it seems) interpreted this to just be a blank message
with that subject.
(2) The original poster is not an RJ fan, so the content would
therefore be a little subject to suspicion.
Geoff
--
GWis...@UoGuelph.CA - Geoffrey Wiseman
" ... I like to watch the puddles gather rain "
- No Rain, Blind Melons
erick alvarado
Kleffel writes:
>This question gets asked a lot usually before a violent revolution in which
>an oppresive government, run by a minority of power-mongers, is disemboweled
>before the cheering oppressed masses. I'm actually curious as to how many
>or more likely, few posters, are generating this huge volume.
I think this analogy is a bit strained...
In any case, just from a rough counting of posts,
the amount of Jordan posts has gone down :
About 40 articles from nearly 200 (since last read my news).
Granted, this is still about 20%, but not as large as some
people are implying. In fact, the number of posts in the
"create a new jordan group and related business" flamewar
is greater than the actual Jordan posts i.e. almost 70 posts
from about 200 articles. Maybe we should have a new group for
posts debating about a new newsgroup. :-) And plenty of
these posts seem to be escaping my kill file.... :-)
I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems that the number
of posts have gone down. They may go up again at some point,
but this type of phenomenon, from what some people have suggested,
is common with authors in the midst of a series.
Anyway, I joined this newsgroup several months ago (and lurked for
a while) and I read some of the books discussed in this group
(including Jordan's books) and have become a fan of several
authors (again including Jordan). I have generally found that the
Jordan fans have tried to be accomodating. Kicking them out
of this group is not a long term solution (IMHO).
In my case, there`s some self-interest since I`m becoming a
strong Jordan fan. Anyway, hopefully the straw poll will
provide some ideas.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| "I guess you could call me an optimist...I have no idea where |
| my life is going, but at least I'm getting there..." |
| -The Philosopher |
| |
| Erick Alvarado er...@engin.umich.edu |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Shaw
were not in the slightest bit possibly useful.
In article <CEu8F...@emu.com> ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
>
>Why do you care what we read? I'm not flooding you with proselytizing
>posts trying to force you to see that Jordan is third rate tired crud.
>If you think seeing you guys talk about something is going to make
>me read, step over to the bar here and let me buy you a clue. This behavior
>is expected of evangelical xtians on a rampage, not r.a.sf.w readers.
I don't give a bloody rat's ass _what_ you read. Nobody's flaming forcing
you to read the Jordan posts! Or trying to force your goat-kissing hide
to read Jordan's books. Peace! You'd bloody well think we were sending
you flaming Jordan propaganda email several bloody times every flaming day.
And offering to buy me an extra clue is very noble - you must have already
given away for free any clues of your own.
>Yup. But nobody, read NOBODY has not heard of Jordan, Jesus or G. Gordon
>Liddy. I want *YOU* to join me in the worship of G. Gordon, who gave up
>his credibilty that he might be able to get bit parts in bad movies and
>TV shows. Truly, he has sacrificed for us. Can't you *SEE* that?
WRONG. There are new people starting to read r.a.s.w all the time -
thats why certain topics, Jordan and otherwise, keep being repeated
over and over and over. It's flaming stupid bloody attitudues like
this that make newbies afraid to post anything.
>>If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
>>day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
>
>I mean any slight possible interest I might have had in Jordan has been
>so thoroughly quashed that Frankenstein, Crick & Watson and the Mayo clinic
>couldn't bring it back to life.
WGARA? As bloody high as you own flaming opinion of yourself seems to
be, your goat-kissing opinions are not representative of everybody
reading this group.
> Your deluge of posts is so blindingly
>pathetic, it pointsd out that the fiction must be even more so.
Please accept my humble apologies on behalf of all the Jordan posters
for us talking about a subject that is apparantly far beyond your
capability to appreciate, let alone understand.
>>Is this any reason to change a system that works well for the large majority?
>
>This question gets asked a lot usually before a violent revolution in which
>an oppresive government, run by a minority of power-mongers, is disemboweled
>before the cheering oppressed masses.
Wake up from your fantasy. A much closer analogy is a small minority
dissatisfied with the decisions of the majority waging a campaign of
violent terrorism hoping to make themsleves the 'oppresive government,
run by a minority of power-mongers'. If the 'cheering oppressed masses'
really wanted a separate jordan newsgroup, one would have been created
long ago.
>What's wrong with your own damn alt.slavish.fan.jordan newsgroup? You could
>simultaneously create alt.slavish.fan.niven, a.s.f.donaldson, a.s.f.alien....
If you don't like any of the authors discussed here, why are you even
subscribed to this newsgroup? Type 'u' now and we'll both be happy.
Or create rec.arts.sf.authors.nobody.hates
>Frankly I'm not al that concerned about, having a killfile and all, but the
>pompous, self-serving evangelical attitude of Jordan supporters is
>phenomenally selfish. [Read: posting from .edu sites.]
Frankly, the pompous, self-serving, anti-majority, 'I'm not concerned
but I'm pissed enough to try to flame you', 'screw everyone else, the
system should be tailored to me' attitude of people who despise every
author they don't like attitude of you and the few people like you is
phenomenally selfish, patently egotistic, and just downright silly.
There are some people actually trying to do something constructive
to create a separate group; this should make you overjoyed. Posting
the useless evangelical 'Jordan must be crushed or the world is doomed'
dreck you did actually makes their efforts more difficult.
- Joe
"I treat reason with reason, thought with thought, and idiocy with contempt."
All standard disclaimers apply. <----- defense against whiners.
--
Joseph Shaw | "Show me someone who says, 'Something must be done!'
GTA/Grad. Student | and I will show you a head full of vicious intentions
Computer Science | that have no other outlet. What we must strive for
Virginia Tech | always! is to find the natural flow and go with it."
erick alvarado
Rick Kleffel writes:
>Because, last I heard, freedom of expression was pretty much permitted on the
>net. And because my opinion, while having no factual basis [one thing all
>opinions have in common], is in fact something that I would like to express.
>Fantasy dreck is fantasy dreck, period. SF dreck is SF dreck, and horror
>dreck is horror dreck, genre dreck is genre dreck, and DRECK IS DRECK. And,
>becuase, while it is admittedly unlikely, there is at least the slight
>possibility that some of the Jordanians who insist upon filling up the group
>with messages in hope of finding new converts might in fact find in this
>bitter bilious prose and my acidic commentary, something called a clue. And
>if they take that clue to heart, they may realize that they are being
>selfish, evangelical and more obnoxious than even the most inflammatory
>message *I* could write. I annoy with highly concentrated pieces of prose;
>imagine if you will, my shell script posting hundreds of messages in the bland
>goody-goody style you're using. Which is more annoying to wade through? Mine?
>Good.
>All those who attempt to convert the heathen are. Until they take out their
>guns and convert 'em the good old fashioned ways, with a whup upside the head
>and a bullet in the kneecap. Save your bullets for yourself, please. You'll
>need 'em.
>Like humor, life is mean and hurtful. I suggest you continue to try to
>avoid both.
>Was I like this when I was a student?
>Probably. One must learn to be this obnoxious.
Gimme a break. You're being as bad (if not worse) than those you
criticize. In any case, I've been hanging around since the
time the whole new group discussion began, and I HAVE NOT
seen this evangelical streak you accuse the Jordan people of.
The only time something was mentioned along those line was
in discussing whether there should be a new group or not, and
it dealt with arguments about new people on the net finding
out about Jordan. Several months ago, I was one off the people
who saw people posting about Jordan and read his books as a result.
And I was not converted, or coerced by the Jordan fans to do so.
That was my own decision.
In fact, I don't believe there has been any of this "proselytizing"
you seem to imply. Someone mentioned this before, but this
type of post irritates me more than any number of post from
authors I don't like. Thank you for your condescension...
and for enlightening us about our obnoxiousness.
And maybe you'll appreciate that some of us also have a
sense of humor.
Joseph Shaw
>Philip Hart (ha...@vsopp4.cern.ch) wrote:
>: Please - I assume you can back up your devotion to Jordan. Put up or ...
>
>I am afraid that they can't seem to. I must now assume that the only
>reason to continue reading Jordon is that there is some mind-influencing
>pattern in the first few pages which compels people to finish the
>series and rant about. Certainly no one has put forward any other reason!
Sure they have - several of us. Either you didn't bother to read the posts
(something you have acused others of doing), or you just choose to ignore
them. Either one is inexcusable if you're going to deluge us with useless
dreck bashing Jordan.
If you did read them and they didn't convince you that reading Jordan
is worth your time, fine. I could accept that; not everyone will want
to read Jordan. But you bloody well didn't flaming say that!
To finish Philip Hart's quote above, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
- Joe
Joseph Shaw
>Rick Kleffel (ri...@emu.com) wrote:
>: In article joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu (Joseph Shaw) writes:
>: >If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
>: >day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
>
>When are the Jordon fans going to understand that this is a pile
>of sh*t! A few people have, but many more have been forever put
>off Jordon, because some ungracious people are ramming him down
>thier throats.
Just how in bloody hell are we ramming Jordan down anyones throats?
Nobody's flaming forcing you to read anything about Jordan. If you
don't like Jordan, don't flaming read the bloody Jordan posts!!
Perhaps you just don't realize that *you* have the choice of not
reading something.
The impression that I'm being left with is that a few people who
despise Jordan are attempting to create a huge rucus in the hope
that the regular people will vote for a separate group just to
end the arguements.
Don Harlow
>Not wishing to agree with the offensive Dick Kettle, I think his
>point was that the potential recruitment factor is the sole reason
>for not moving to r.a.sf.rj, rather than the reason for the
>posting themselves.
>
place and nobody wants to go to the effort of creating one. a.f.r-j is
not a satisfactory substitute.
>And don't forget to vote in the 'Do you want a new group
>for Jordon straw poll?' Mail 'yes' or 'no' to
>po...@dragon.dsh.org by 8pm EDT on 17th October.
>
On this we can agree.
> Barry Traish 93 Stanningley Road,Armley,Leeds,LS12 3NW,UK. Tel 0532 638970
--
Don Harlow do...@netcom.com
Esperanto League (Info only) (800)828-5944 or el...@netcom.com
Turnig^as la Rado de la Tempo,
kaj postlasas multajn vojkadavretojn. (Lau^ Robert Jordan)
paul cameron
of all of this crap regarding a new Jordan group. The only things that are
keeping the two sides of this unnecessarily monumental struggle seems to be
simple intolerance.
The seemingly militant camps have each dug their heels in so far that they
cannot see the other side of the argument.
The fight has progressed from being a small problem (too many RJ posts) to beinga skirmish between stubborn naysayers. "Use a killfile"..."Some of us don't
have kill files" "Use the rec group"..."Some of us don't get the rec groups"
On these two points, as unfortunate as this may be, I have to side with the
first group in each case. Just because some people do not have the means or
the access to go along with a solution does not mean it is not a solution.
I mean, should we be using photocopiers, fax and mail to satisfy the sf fans
who have no internet access whatsoever?
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"
Now, another strange thing about this whole idea of why we can't have r.a.sf.rj
is the idea that by posting to r.a.sf.w people will convince others to read RJ.
Strange. Nobody posts any messages about the bible (if you really stretched
you could consider the later new testament as sf), even though I'm sure
there are many people out there who would like us to all read more of God's
works. Really, cramming RJ down some poor freshman's throut, when he can't
figure out whether or not he has kill files, let alone how to use one is
hardly a way to convince the guy to read RJ. What do you (that's the royal
you) care if more people read RJ? You read it, isn't that good enough?
God knows there's enough RJ fans (myself include BTW) around here to suit
any discussion we can come up with just fine.
I know that I haven't helped settle the question regarding a new group, but
I hope I have gotten you to understand my feelings as an annoyed reader.
Paul Cameron
Chris Croughton
war...@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne) writes:
>By the way, for those who download the entire newsgroup to "save money
>on connection time", you would do better to download the headers
>and fetch only the articles you want to read.
Not true, since for most newsgroups we tend to want almost everything.
We can't say "I just want the headers of r.a.sf.written, and all of the
rest". It takes almost as long to get a header as to get the complete
message, anyway, since a large part of the delay is NNTP protocol rather
than data transfer (for this message, about 50% would be protocol
overhead and processing delays if it was requested specifically rather
than in a batch).
***********************************************************************
* ch...@keris.demon.co.uk * *
* chr...@cix.compulink.co.uk * FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life) *
* 10001...@compuserve.com * *
***********************************************************************
Jeff Schneiter
>: In article joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu (Joseph Shaw) writes:
>: >If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
>: >day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
>When are the Jordon fans going to understand that this is a pile
>of sh*t! A few people have, but many more have been forever put
>off Jordon, because some ungracious people are ramming him down
>thier throats.
I would consider myself a Jordan fanatic, and unfortunately agree with
the above. Not that we ram our posts down peoples' eyes, but that such
high volume can turn someone off to that author. That has happened to
me before - instead of trying to find a number of the posts that would
interest me, I ended up ignoring ALL of the posts. That was the key
element that made me switch my vote to a YES for a separate rec group.
I find Jordan to be so great, that I do not want to turn people off to
it - a simple non-fan FAQ posted 2 or 3 times a month should suffice.
It's not like we have to hurry to get converts - these books have
several years to go before being done.
Can we please vote yes on the straw vote so that we can have some
peace and quiet? I have found the Jordan fans to have the best
discussions in all of usenet - their humor and friendliness is getting
a bad rep with this whole thread. And no more bacon jokes :)
jeff s
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Schneiter........jeffs@almaden.ibm.com........408.927.1498
IBM......Almaden Research Center.....San Jose......CA.....95120
Father of Argo, Not a small piece of bacon.....................
Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, not IBM's, nor Microsoft's...
Ron Asbestos Dippold
>When are the Jordon fans going to understand that this is a pile
>of sh*t! A few people have, but many more have been forever put
>off Jordon, because some ungracious people are ramming him down
>thier throats.
You seem to have an amazing number of oral rape fantasies.
Regardless, how can someone possibly shove Jordan down your throat
over the net? I've never read a book of his, and I don't feel
threatened by the posts. I'm quite capable of making my own
decisions, thank you, and if you operate solely on peer pressure the
net is going to be a very dangerous place for you.
--
Irrigation of the land with seawater desalinated by fusion power is ancient.
It's called 'rain.'
Derek J. Middleton
: Please - I assume you can back up your devotion to Jordan. Put up or ...
BG TRAISH wrote:
: I am afraid that they can't seem to. I must now assume that the only
: reason to continue reading Jordon is that there is some mind-influencing
: pattern in the first few pages which compels people to finish the
: series and rant about. Certainly no one has put forward any other reason!
By your own admission, you've never read the books, but yet you can
judge them for all the rest of us. It must be nice to know
everything.
Derek J. Middleton
: If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
: day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
BG TRAISH wrote:
: When are the Jordon fans going to understand that this is a pile
: of sh*t! A few people have, but many more have been forever put
: off Jordon, because some ungracious people are ramming him down
: thier throats.
Gee, by putting 'jordan' in our subject lines, i thought we were
trying to AVOID ramming him down other people's throats.
Derek J. Middleton
: It's all so clear now! All i needed is someone who read an ENTIRE
: book in the series to tell me what's going on..
BG TRAISH wrote:
: [X] You have greatly misunderstood the point of this discussion
Actually, not really. I was simply using a somewhat well-knows
argument technique known as sarcasm to point out the fact that you
were jumping to conclusions about the jordan books when you haven't
read them all. The attraction of the books is NOT totally obvious
from just one book. The main attraction of the books is the way
everything ties together.
I wrote:
: use a killfile...
BG TRAISH wrote:
: [X] You have completely missed reasonable objections to this.
actually, i apologize for this. I was getting irritated from reading
all the slamming that was taking place toward jordan posters. This
flame war was started by non-jordanites and the jordanites are
starting to respond. I don't think a lot of people like this.
Apologies for the blatant insult.
Roy Navarre
>BG TRAISH wrote:
>: I am afraid that they can't seem to. I must now assume that the only
>: reason to continue reading Jordon is that there is some mind-influencing
>: pattern in the first few pages which compels people to finish the
>: series and rant about. Certainly no one has put forward any other reason!
>
>By your own admission, you've never read the books, but yet you can
>judge them for all the rest of us. It must be nice to know
>everything.
>-Derek
Don't sweat him Derek. Why take a pompous twit seriously? If one can't
advance a rational argument, walk on by.
Roy
Derek J. Middleton
: No, the sole reason for not moving to r.a.sf.rj is that there is no such
: not a satisfactory substitute.
Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
with my statment of the group in alt.config.
-D
Joel Rosenberg
pn> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
pn> Subject: Ridiculous J$%#%^$ordan Poo-poo
pn> Organization: fwa
pn> <1993Oct11.1...@bradford.ac.uk> <CEsE1...@emu.com>
pn> ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
>>I promise to buy&burn some
>>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
pn> An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
pn> several.
If he's going to do it in lots large enough, Patrick, you should at least have
the decency to offer him the standard discount.
* Origin: From Casa Ellegon: Where Bedtime Goes On Forever (RA 1:282/341)
Patrick Nielsen-Hayden
> pn> An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
> pn> several.
>If he's going to do it in lots large enough, Patrick, you should at least have
>the decency to offer him the standard discount.
Okay, 40%, but he pays freight.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden, senior editor, Tor Books
p...@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * opinions mine
David Wren-Hardin
>Don Harlow wrote:
>: No, the sole reason for not moving to r.a.sf.rj is that there is no such
>: place and nobody wants to go to the effort of creating one. a.f.r-j is
>: not a satisfactory substitute.
>
>Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
>group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
>with my statment of the group in alt.config.
>
I believe it takes _much_ more than this. You have to post a formal
Call For Discussion (CFD) and a Call For Votes (CFV) on several
new.* groups. THere are time limits for each phase, and a charter
must be written up. I think there could be more, and I'm not aware of
the details of these processes.
Also, if you think the discussion is rabid here in the group, wait
til people outside the group find out that there is a movement to
create a separate rec group for an author who has written a few
Conan books and an imcomplete, albeit popular, fantasy series. It
was hard enough convincing people Tolkien needed his own group.
Jordan does not have his reputation, believe it or not. I think
attempting to create a rec group will go down in flames, but that
it should be done just so it can be said that it was tried.
>-D
>--
>#include <standard.disclaimer>
>#include <silly.quote>
>#define email midd...@cps.msu.edu
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
John S. Novak III
>Can we please vote yes on the straw vote so that we can have some
>peace and quiet? I have found the Jordan fans to have the best
>discussions in all of usenet - their humor and friendliness is getting
>a bad rep with this whole thread. And no more bacon jokes :)
At this point, I no longer care _what_ people do, so long as they
do it by the guidelines, keep access for everyone currently
involved in the discussions (which means, more or less, keeping
it somewhere in the rec.* hierarchy) and above all, once it is
done, that people SHUT UP about the topic in general.
Good God, people, this is becoming just as much a pain in the ass
as the constant split skirmishes in rec.games.frp before the
sainted Loren Miller made a sensible proposal and got things
changed. Its happened in other places, too, but I was more
involved the the rgf split than any other. (Come to think of it,
I didn't think I would agree to a rgf split either, before the
vote was actually taken.)
Unfortunately, it has been my general experience that:
o If the new group gets created, there will be some initial
complaining and whining which will settle down in a few months.
o If it doesn't, it will be approximately one to two months
before the subdued complaining and whining escalates back up to
the point where near-useless 'straw polls' are taken and someone
tries to start another RFD or CFV.
(Go ahead-- prove me wrong.)
At this point, we may as well just do it and be done.
If this ever comes to an official CFV, I still don't how I'd
vote, at this point. But that in me which likes to see whining
and bickering cease is rousing its gnarled head in grimacing
disgust.
And you know what?
Nothing binding about this can really be done until an RFD and a
CFV have happened. (Or at least, as binding as anything on
internet ever gets.) And these will take time. Time enough that
traffic about Jordan will probably be low during parts of the
vote.
--
Murphy's Fourth Law of Programming:
Only after a task has proven completely impossible is it time to
read the reference book.
John S. Novak, III dark...@camelot.bradley.edu
Steven Myers
B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk (BG TRAISH) writes:
>Rick Kleffel (ri...@emu.com) wrote:
>: In article joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu (Joseph Shaw) writes:
>: >If they see posts with JORDAN in the subject every
>: >day, many more will wonder what they're missing.
>
>When are the Jordon fans going to understand that this is a pile
>of sh*t! A few people have, but many more have been forever put
>off Jordon, because some ungracious people are ramming him down
>thier throats.
>
>--
>-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=- B.G.T...@bradford.ac.uk -=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-
> Barry Traish 93 Stanningley Road,Armley,Leeds,LS12 3NW,UK. Tel 0532 638970
> Reading: Elvissey - Jack Womack; I, Vampire - Jody Scott
>-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-=#=-
Who cares? Sorry, pal, but if you don't like it, that's your problem
I have no responsibility to you, and I'd never accept any. If you
don't like the way the newsgroup is, don't read it. It's hard to ram
something down someone's throat if his mouth is closed.
This whole discussion seems counter-productive for those who don't
like Jordan. There's billions of these anti-jordan and pro-jordan
posts flying around. Personally, I think they can be funny, so I
don't mind, but if these people really wanted less Jordan stuff, they'd
do better by being quiet.
Steve
Jeff Strain
cam...@hercules.cs.uregina.ca (paul cameron) wrote:
> Now, another strange thing about this whole idea of why we can't
> have r.a.sf.rj is the idea that by posting to r.a.sf.w people will
> convince others to read RJ.
I think this is the opinion of a very few Jordan fans. I certainly do not
think it reflects the attitude of Jordan fans as a whole, but the concept
seems to be driving a large part of this discussion.
As a Jordan fan, I _certainly_ do not attempt to use flood posting as a
"missionary" tool, nor do I even lend credibility to the very concept of
proselytizing in a public forum. Like many others who have posted here, I
tend to have an *extremely* negative reaction to such behavior.
However, I do think this subgroup discussion has merits, and hate to see it
focus on the missionary issue if it does not accurately reflect the
attitude of the Jordan fans as a whole.
--
Jeff Strain
wst...@ppe.ppd.ti.com
Don Harlow
> pn> From: p...@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
> pn> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
> pn> Subject: Ridiculous J$%#%^$ordan Poo-poo
> pn> Organization: fwa
> pn> <1993Oct11.1...@bradford.ac.uk> <CEsE1...@emu.com>
>
> pn> ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
>
> >>I promise to buy&burn some
> >>RJ *just to eliminate the possibility that someone might read it*
>
> pn> An excellent notion, sir. Do start with the hardcovers, though. Buy
> pn> several.
>
>If he's going to do it in lots large enough, Patrick, you should at least have
>the decency to offer him the standard discount.
>
John S. Novak III
>Don Harlow wrote:
>: No, the sole reason for not moving to r.a.sf.rj is that there is no such
>: place and nobody wants to go to the effort of creating one. a.f.r-j is
>: not a satisfactory substitute.
>Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
>group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
>with my statment of the group in alt.config.
You'll be creating what, the alt group?
Big deal.
Not all sites get alt groups.
You'll be creating the rec group?
Have fun with it-- yours will be one of the few sites to do
anything with it, if there's no CFV.
--
Murphy's Law of Combat # 19.
When you've secured the area, don't forget to tell the enemy.
Dale Schouten
J****N's in their title, just to screw up peoples kill files.
I've never read his stuff, and now I likely never will, giving that
his writing seems to attract such obnoxious fans.
Please, get your own newsgroup or something, but don't keep screwing
up my carefully constructed and ever growing kill file.
(and also, please don't send me email telling me 1) I don't know
what I'm missing 2) It wasn't fans that started messing with the subject
lines 3) use the `n' key 4) anything else. I don't care. I'm just sick
of finding 20-30 articles a day of mindless bickering.)
Bronis Vidugiris
)
) pn> From: p...@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
)If he's going to do it in lots large enough, Patrick, you should at least have
)the decency to offer him the standard discount.
On the other hand, maybe the thing to do is to order a bunch of Jordan
on consignment, tear off the covers, THEN burn them (and return the
covers). It's free.
:-(
(Unless, of course, things don't work that way for hardbacks. But you
can still do it for the paperbacks :-\).
--
"Stop or I'll scream" -- Black Bolt
Matthew J Shim
Thanks to whoever created the alt.fan.robert-jordan group.
I know some people aren't happy, but...it provided me with info on this
group.
I really didn't know there were that many Robert Jordan fans. I didn't
even know this group existed until the alt.fan.robert-jordan group
appeared in my new subscription list.
I guess I'm lucky that I have access to both groups and I can understand
people not wanting to switch or not being able to switch to the alt. group.
Thanks again! Now I have about 3000 article to look through in rec.
Aloha!
Matt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the Truth! --- Respect the Culture!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew J. Shim : "You can pay the man,
University of Hawai'i at Manoa : you can take the land,
School of Public Health : but you can't take the truth away!"
: ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^
Email: sh...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu : -- The Hawaiian Style Band
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the Truth! --- Respect the Culture!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Shim : "You can pay the man,
benjamin franz
: Don Harlow wrote:
: : No, the sole reason for not moving to r.a.sf.rj is that there is no such
: : place and nobody wants to go to the effort of creating one. a.f.r-j is
: : not a satisfactory substitute.
: Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
: group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
: with my statment of the group in alt.config.
Just a wee bit of assumption here isn't there? How about waiting until
*after* the results of the straw poll come back before you make statements
about initiating the new group creation process?
Or are you implying that even if the vote runs against a new group you are
going forward with the creation a new group anyway?
Lyle Youngblood
Well to hell with you friend on your point #2. You are blaming Jordan
fans because the anti-Jordan group is f*cking with subject lines to get past
your kill files. This is A) hypocritical, B) unfair, C) dishonest, and
D) just plain stupid. The obnoxious people in this discussion are NOT
Jordan fans, the are the bigots such as your self who figure that if you
don't like it that makes anyone who does wrong. If you don't like Jordan,
don't read him. If you don't like J#rd#n, etc. posts, complain to the
Jordan-bashing crowd.
Lyle
Derek J. Middleton
: Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
: group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
: with my statment of the group in alt.config.
David Wren-Hardin wrote:
: I believe it takes _much_ more than this. You have to post a formal
: Call For Discussion (CFD) and a Call For Votes (CFV) on several
: new.* groups. THere are time limits for each phase, and a charter
: must be written up. I think there could be more, and I'm not aware of
: the details of these processes.
I am aware of the details. I have complete documentation. I could
not remember the official name of "Call for Discussion" when i posted
this so i just said "statement"
: Also, if you think the discussion is rabid here in the group, wait
: til people outside the group find out that there is a movement to
: create a separate rec group for an author who has written a few
: Conan books and an imcomplete, albeit popular, fantasy series. It
: was hard enough convincing people Tolkien needed his own group.
: Jordan does not have his reputation, believe it or not. I think
: attempting to create a rec group will go down in flames, but that
: it should be done just so it can be said that it was tried.
I will try.
-Derek
Derek J. Middleton
: No, the sole reason for not moving to r.a.sf.rj is that there is no such
: place and nobody wants to go to the effort of creating one. a.f.r-j is
: not a satisfactory substitute.
I wrote:
: Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
: group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
: with my statment of the group in alt.config.
John S. Novak III wrote:
: You'll be creating what, the alt group?
: Big deal.
: Not all sites get alt groups.
: You'll be creating the rec group?
: Have fun with it-- yours will be one of the few sites to do
: anything with it, if there's no CFV.
Listen, i'm not a news administrator. I don't have the power to
create the group. I am going to post the call for discussion to get
the group created. You shouldn't be insulting when you don't have the
complete story.
-Derek
Derek J. Middleton
: Not true. I have mentioned several times that I will be creating the
: group as soon as the straw poll results are available for me to post
: with my statment of the group in alt.config.
benjamin franz wrote:
: Just a wee bit of assumption here isn't there? How about waiting until
: *after* the results of the straw poll come back before you make statements
: about initiating the new group creation process?
: Or are you implying that even if the vote runs against a new group you are
: going forward with the creation a new group anyway?
Perhaps you didn't read my post. I SAID i was waiting until after the
results came back. And of course i would not try to get one created
if there's a general 'no' concensus. I have common sense (unlike some
people who just go ahead and create 'alt' groups)
-Derek
benjamin franz
: Perhaps you didn't read my post. I SAID i was waiting until after the
: results came back. And of course i would not try to get one created
: if there's a general 'no' concensus. I have common sense (unlike some
: people who just go ahead and create 'alt' groups)
My apologies. I was a bit on the cranky side yesterday and posted without
real cause. (I also wrote some really nasty, but well deserved, e-mail to
someone who shall remain nameless, but lacks common sense as defined above).
John S. Novak III
>Listen, i'm not a news administrator. I don't have the power to
>create the group. I am going to post the call for discussion to get
>the group created. You shouldn't be insulting when you don't have the
>complete story.
o I dod not consider myself to have posted an 'insulting'
response. Abrasive, perhaps, and cynical, but not intentionally
insulting. What I posted in response to Preston a while back was
insulting.
o I've seen enough confusion over that post to feel
justified. Post the 'complete story' as it were, and I'll
respond to it.
--
"There is no such thing as an underestimate of average
intelligence."
-- Henry Adams
Al Brackett--FAbracketO OPS--232-7620--DGC
>In article <SCHOUTEN.93...@sp51.csrd.uiuc.edu> scho...@sp95.csrd.uiuc.edu writes:
>>Look, people, I'm sick of all these threads popping up with mangled
>>J****N's in their title, just to screw up peoples kill files.
>>lines 3) use the `n' key 4) anything else. I don't care. I'm just sick
>>of finding 20-30 articles a day of mindless bickering.)
>
> Well to hell with you friend on your point #2. You are blaming Jordan
>fans because the anti-Jordan group is f*cking with subject lines to get past
>your kill files. This is A) hypocritical, B) unfair, C) dishonest, and
>D) just plain stupid. The obnoxious people in this discussion are NOT
>Jordan fans, the are the bigots such as your self who figure that if you
>don't like it that makes anyone who does wrong. If you don't like Jordan,
>don't read him. If you don't like J#rd#n, etc. posts, complain to the
>Jordan-bashing crowd.
> Lyle
--------------------
And as to point #4... Take a pill...
-------------------
regards/ al
Did I drop my .sig in the coffee??? Al Brackett
N1IQQ @ KA1RCI.RI (for those that know) abra...@dg-webo.webo.dg.com
Work For Peace / Plan For Conflict / You can't WIN if You don't TRY
[insert] Standard Disclamer Here< > BLESS / PEACE