"A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts"

[Lynn McGuire]

"A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":

http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/A-lamentation-on-the-demise-of-books-and-other-3464868.php

Wow does this ever express my thoughts about
ebooks. And some of my favorite authors are
now releasing new stories only in ebooks, i.e.
Jerry Pournelle and Co.:
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Island-Avalon-Series-ebook/dp/B007MSK4HM/

"Please let my tombstone read: "I'll give up my
book when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
(accompanied by my necessary apologies to the
late actor Charlton Heston, who had famously
coined the phrase regarding his right to carry
a gun.)"

I am feeling like a Luddite today.

Lynn

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 4/8/12 9:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":
>
> http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/A-lamentation-on-the-demise-of-books-and-other-3464868.php
>
>
> Wow does this ever express my thoughts about
> ebooks

Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have
books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware
will be there to read it, and that the current asinine practices towards
treating anything electronic as a temporary permission slip rather than
ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Howard Brazee]

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:09:16 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have
>books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
>unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
>grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware
>will be there to read it, and that the current asinine practices towards
>treating anything electronic as a temporary permission slip rather than
>ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.

Most dead tree books don't survive a century. I have old books and
magazines that I have to be very careful of.

And every e-book I buy, I break the DRM protection and save in
multiple places - for my own peace of mind.

If my grandchildren do not want what they inherit from me - it will be
their choice. I don't believe books are somehow special that they
need my library as opposed to my desk or my chair or my socks. They
can buy new books or new desks or new socks.

Everything I have is ephemeral.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Kay Shapero]

In article <7mh4o7hd0fcsti58i...@4ax.com>,
how...@brazee.net says...

>
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:09:16 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> > Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have
> >books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
> >unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
> >grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware
> >will be there to read it, and that the current asinine practices towards
> >treating anything electronic as a temporary permission slip rather than
> >ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.

Indeed. One thing I like about Baen - they treat the ebook customers
like adults, price them reasonably, and don't lard them up with DRM.

--
Kay Shapero
http://www.kayshapero.net
Address munged, to email use kay at the above domain (everything after
the www.)

[jonathan]

"Lynn McGuire" <l...@winsim.com> wrote in message
news:jlteo0$rpp$1...@dont-email.me...

> "A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":
>

But that bookshelf has been replaced with the
Encyclopedia 'Galactica!'

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in

news:jlteo0$rpp$1...@dont-email.me:

Whiney little bitch who can't handle that other people make
different choices than he does.

"I'll give up my buggy whip when you pry it form my cold, dead
fingers."

Nobody *cares* if you keep using your buggy whipe, dude. The rest
of us are too busy putting kerosine in our Stanely Steamers.

>
> I am feeling like a Luddite today.
>

You *are* a Luddite.

I'm currently whining that there's a Discworld book not available
in ebook format.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:jltgce$2km$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 4/8/12 9:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":
>>
>> http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/A-lamentation-on-th
>> e-demise-of-books-and-other-3464868.php
>>
>>
>> Wow does this ever express my thoughts about
>> ebooks
>
> Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but
> I have
> books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old.
> I am unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be
> there for my grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I
> doubt the hardware will be there to read it,

ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
software conversion.

> and that the
> current asinine practices towards treating anything electronic
> as a temporary permission slip rather than ownership will tend
> to make anything ephemeral.

It's trivial to automatically make unencrypted backups for any ebook
purchases.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net> wrote in
news:MPG.29ec21857...@news.eternal-september.org:

> In article <7mh4o7hd0fcsti58i...@4ax.com>,
> how...@brazee.net says...
>>
>> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:09:16 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things
>> > but I have
>> >books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years
>> >old. I am unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today
>> >will be there for my grandchildren 50 years from now -- both
>> >because I doubt the hardware will be there to read it, and
>> >that the current asinine practices towards treating anything
>> >electronic as a temporary permission slip rather than
>> >ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.
>
> Indeed. One thing I like about Baen - they treat the ebook
> customers like adults, price them reasonably, and don't lard
> them up with DRM.
>

And they've done all right for their shareholders.

I'm heartened to see that JK Rowling seems to have studied Baen quite
closely on way to do HP ebooks.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On Apr 8, 10:22 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:09:16 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>

> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >    Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have
> >books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
> >unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
> >grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware
> >will be there to read it, and that the current asinine practices towards
> >treating anything electronic as a temporary permission slip rather than
> >ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.
>
> Most dead tree books don't survive a century.   I have old books and
> magazines that I have to be very careful of.

True, but it is entirely predictable which will last and which won't,
based on the quality of the paper. The oldest volume which I have
ever personally sat down and read was about five hundred years old
(albeit with a modern library binding). The oldest volumes I
personally own are about a hundred and fifty or so years old, while
the oldest written document I personally own (a page from a missal) is
about six hundred years old. But none of these were intended to be
ephemeral. Newspapers or mass market paperbacks from fifty years ago
are a different matter entirely.

>
> And every e-book I buy, I break the DRM protection and save in
> multiple places - for my own peace of mind.

I have been purchasing books intended for the long haul for about
thirty years. It is not unusual for me to pick up and read a book I
haven't opened in decades. I'm not even sure how many computers I
have gone through since my first desktop around 1990 or so. Data
preservation is not an unsolvable problem by any means, but I haven't
noticed anyone marketing a practical solution for people who want to
make sure their ebook are readable in thirty years.

> If my grandchildren do not want what they inherit from me - it will be
> their choice.   I don't believe books are somehow special that they
> need my library as opposed to my desk or my chair or my socks.   They
> can buy new books or new desks or new socks.

Well, sure. That's what estate sales are for.

> Everything I have is ephemeral.

Everything is ephemeral, for some value of "ephemeral". But not
everything I own is ephemeral, on the time scale of my lifetime.

Which brings me to my take on ebooks (which naturally I declare to be
the sensible media res). Ebooks make perfect sense for some sorts of
text. Disposable fiction is a prime example. There are obvious
advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
read. Textbooks are another example. Most people don't intend to
keep most textbooks once the class is over. There may also develop
genres which succeed in making good use of the possibilities in the
format, though I gather that the attempts so far have been pretty
lame. But I have little difficulty thinking up sorts of books for
which I think paper still works better.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>software conversion.

I have read that there is a movement to create more books that more
interactive, designed to use features that tablet readers have that
dead tree books can't do.

In one sense, that's good - but it would likely also make them more
proprietary and harder to preserve.


I do love being able to look up a word (or more) in an e-book
instantly.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
> There are obvious
> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
> read.

This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
was afraid to maintain contact".

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:23:39 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>> There are obvious
>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
>> read.
>
> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
>to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
>who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
>My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
>was afraid to maintain contact".

My mother-in-law is constantly buying books - but doesn't keep any. Of
course in her retirement home, there are always people glad to take
them off her hands.

But come to think of it, I'd love to have old newspapers that I've
read. There are some hoarders who fill up their houses that way. I
suppose lots of people would call me a hoarder for my book library.

It's all relative.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

> Most dead tree books don't survive a century. I have old books and
> magazines that I have to be very careful of.

If it hasn't been chiseled into a rock face, it clearly never was
worth writing down in the first place.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, April 9, 2012 6:14:39 PM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
> formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
> software conversion.

No non-English type? No illustrations?

[Greg Goss]

Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net> wrote:

>Indeed. One thing I like about Baen - they treat the ebook customers
>like adults, price them reasonably, and don't lard them up with DRM.

And I just gave Baen $54 on Sunday.
--
I used to own a mind like a steel trap.
Perhaps if I'd specified a brass one, it
wouldn't have rusted like this.

[Taki Kogoma]

On 2012-04-09, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net>
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
><taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>>formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>>software conversion.
>
> I have read that there is a movement to create more books that more
> interactive, designed to use features that tablet readers have that
> dead tree books can't do.
>
> In one sense, that's good - but it would likely also make them more
> proprietary and harder to preserve.

ObSF: _A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer_

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>>formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>>software conversion.
>
> I have read that there is a movement to create more books that more
> interactive, designed to use features that tablet readers have that
> dead tree books can't do.

Manufacturers would *love* to get us to buy in that, yes, since
they'd make more money, and it'd be easier to lock us in to
proprietary formats. But every time I read about some allegedly new
"interactive book format," all I can think is "that's not new, that's
a web page." And like interactive web pages that have shit flashing
all over the screen and play sounds you can't turn off without
putting an ail through a speaker, it will suck.

>
> In one sense, that's good - but it would likely also make them more
> proprietary and harder to preserve.

In what sense is it good to make a web page that you don't want to
call a web page? If I want multimedia, I'll buy the DVD.

>
>
> I do love being able to look up a word (or more) in an e-book
> instantly.
>

You can do that now with every reader I'm familiar with.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
news:14122336.633.1333999787369.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbb
g2:

OK, then, unicode. And JPEG isn't going anywhere either (and is still
a matter of simple software conversion).

Hint: Both epub and mobi are, in every sense, web pages. Rename
either (assuming it's not encryted) to end with .zip, and you can
open it up like any other zip file and edit the HTML, or change the
images, or whatever. It's a web page minus the add-ons that make the
web suck so much.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:04:45 AM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
> news:14122336.633.1333999787369.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbb
> g2:
>
> > On Monday, April 9, 2012 6:14:39 PM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella
> > Carrying Sissy wrote:
> >> ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major
> >> ebook formats out there today are just that. Everything else is
> >> a simple software conversion.
> >
> > No non-English type? No illustrations?
> >
> OK, then, unicode. And JPEG isn't going anywhere either (and is still
> a matter of simple software conversion).
>
> Hint: Both epub and mobi are, in every sense, web pages. Rename
> either (assuming it's not encryted) to end with .zip, and you can
> open it up like any other zip file and edit the HTML, or change the
> images, or whatever. It's a web page minus the add-ons that make the
> web suck so much.

And, technically, minus the web, I suppose.
Although some e-reading is on a device with
a web browser.

[Wayne Throop]

: Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com>
: Although some e-reading is on a device with a web browser.

For example, Kindle-3 and Kindle-4 readers (with e-ink pearl displays).

[Sjouke Burry]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA030A2C8C9F...@69.16.186.7:

> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
> news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>>>formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>>>software conversion.

Rant on//
Whats wrong with ascii? All my books come equiped with it,
SF books/stories (421 of them) I downloaded from Gutenburg,
all in ascii.
I dont need/want proprietry/drm/rootkit on my computer,
and ebook readers like M$ Ebook, which cant even show ascii source,
are only useful in dumping them in the trashcan.
Rant off//.
What are people going to do in about 5-10 years, when their reader
is not on the market/hardware anymore?
Just forget about their books?
Most of my books are 20+ years old, and I want to keep them
if you dont mind.
But drm/propriety is a surefire way to to kill a library.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 4/8/2012 9:09 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 4/8/12 9:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":
>>
>> http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/A-lamentation-on-the-demise-of-books-and-other-3464868.php
>>
>>
>> Wow does this ever express my thoughts about
>> ebooks
>
> Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I
> am unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the
> hardware will be there to read it, and that the current asinine practices towards treating anything electronic as a temporary
> permission slip rather than ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.

Our bible class teacher brought a 15xx Tyndale
bible to class last quarter. It was beatiful
and unreadable. He did not pass it around.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Thank you !

Lynn

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:23:39 -0400, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>> There are obvious
>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to read.
>
> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it
refers
> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
> was afraid to maintain contact".

I once loaned a book to my boss. After several months, I asked him
whether he had finished it yet, since I wanted to reread it. He said,
"Oh, I finished it last month, then gave it to someone else. I know you
said you were lending it to me, but didn't think you really wanted it
back. After all, no one ever reads the same book more than once." I
explained to him that I, for one, did reread books at times. That was
the last time I loaned him any books.

--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

[Bill Swears]

On 4/9/2012 10:23 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>> There are obvious
>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
>> read.
>
> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers to
> something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
> was afraid to maintain contact".
>
>

I got my first copy of Lord Foul's Bane from a friend named Zee who
always gave away his paperbacks when he we done with them. He didn't
abandon them, he either handed them to friends or took them to a used
bookstore. At least, he said that he did.

Bill

--
Amazon Author Central - www.amazon.com/author/billswears
Zook Country - http://twilighttimesbooks.com/ZookCountry_ch1.html
Also at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and other fine ebook emporia.
Puppies - http://www.mtaonline.net/~wswears/
Opinions - http://wswears.livejournal.com/

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 17:05:57 -0500, Taki Kogoma <qu...@tenma.swcp.com>
wrote:

>> I have read that there is a movement to create more books that more
>> interactive, designed to use features that tablet readers have that
>> dead tree books can't do.
>>
>> In one sense, that's good - but it would likely also make them more
>> proprietary and harder to preserve.
>
>ObSF: _A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer_

Of course, in that case, physical stuff got downloaded as well.

[ncw...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, April 9, 2012 8:04:23 PM UTC+2, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:

> There may also develop
> genres which succeed in making good use of the possibilities in the
> format, though I gather that the attempts so far have been pretty
> lame.

The IBooks version of _Yellow Submarine_ is quite good (at least my 4 year old likes it) with interactive animation and multi-media clips taken from the film.

So yes, in most cases I would say it's a gimick, but for children's books there is a possible application.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 09 Apr 2012 23:52:09 GMT, Sjouke Burry <s@b> wrote:

>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:XnsA030A2C8C9F...@69.16.186.7:
>
>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
>> news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>>>>formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>>>>software conversion.
>Rant on//
>Whats wrong with ascii?

Ask someone who only reads Chinese or Arabic, and don't be so
provincial.

> All my books come equiped with it,
>SF books/stories (421 of them) I downloaded from Gutenburg,
>all in ascii.
>I dont need/want proprietry/drm/rootkit on my computer,

Then what you mean to ask is "What's wrong with plain text encoding?".

Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe - mostly by
Calibre.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"If we do not change the direction we are going, we are likely to
end up where we are headed." - anon

[Michael Stemper]

In article <jlv9fb$rtq$1...@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:

>> There are obvious
>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
>> read.
>
> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
>to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
>who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
>My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
>was afraid to maintain contact".

I can think of something more extreme than that. A friend of mine sat in
an airplane, next to somebody who tore each page out of the book that he
was reading as he finished it (the page). Apparently, that way he didn't
need a bookmark.

Gives a really strong meaning to "strippable".

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This sentence no verb.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 4/10/12 8:15 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
> In article<jlv9fb$rtq$1...@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>
>>> There are obvious
>>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
>>> read.
>>
>> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
>> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
>> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
>> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
>> was afraid to maintain contact".
>
> I can think of something more extreme than that. A friend of mine sat in
> an airplane, next to somebody who tore each page out of the book that he
> was reading as he finished it (the page). Apparently, that way he didn't
> need a bookmark.

URGE TO KILL RISING... RISING...

[jack...@bright.net]

Sea Wasp wrote:

>On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>> There are obvious
>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
>> read.
>
> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
>to something I can't imagine existing.

And you're an sf writer!

>Are there REALLY people out there
>who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
>My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
>was afraid to maintain contact".

I've owned more books than I do now. Used book stores, the annual
AAUW book sale, even the rotating library aboard one of the ships I
served on have all been a source and sink for my reading material.
Come to think of it, I rented a storage shed with a former shipmate,
he was at sea when I got my discharge, he must have been surprised to
find he inherited all (well most of) my comic books.

I don't spend much time in airports, bus stations, or vacation houses,
but I can understand leaving a book there is somewhere between passing
it on at work and abandoning it on a street corner. Although I admit
I'd be somewhat leery about reading something found in those places;
afraid of catching somebody else's dreams. (No, I don't mean germs,
I'm thinking of the first time I went into Chicago and was handed a
Chicktract.)

--
-Jack

[Bill Snyder]

"I am in the smallest room in the house. Your book is before me.
Soon it will be behind me."

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Ah, the first flush of success...

[Bill Snyder]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:22:15 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 4/10/12 9:18 AM, Bill Snyder wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:37:28 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/10/12 8:15 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
>>>> In article<jlv9fb$rtq$1...@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> There are obvious
>>>>>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
>>>>>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
>>>>>> read.
>>>>>
>>>>> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
>>>>> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
>>>>> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
>>>>> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
>>>>> was afraid to maintain contact".
>>>>
>>>> I can think of something more extreme than that. A friend of mine sat in
>>>> an airplane, next to somebody who tore each page out of the book that he
>>>> was reading as he finished it (the page). Apparently, that way he didn't
>>>> need a bookmark.
>>>
>>> URGE TO KILL RISING... RISING...
>>
>> "I am in the smallest room in the house. Your book is before me.
>> Soon it will be behind me."
>>
>
> Ah, the first flush of success...

Seriously, at least you know a destroyed copy won't be going to
the used book store and maybe costing you a sale of a new copy.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

That's not the way it works. The copies in circulation promote more
sales overall. Removing the used books eliminates potential additional
sales from that type of word-of-mouth. There's a REASON the Baen Free
Library contains lots of titles that can still be -- and ARE! -- bought
from Baen.

[Kip Williams]

I bought a book of NY Times crosswords, and it still feels kind of weird
tearing pages out of it to take places, but it's not like I haven't
written on it already.


Kip W
rasfw

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in

news:29672043.2019.1334013060387.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbb
dy9:

Where epub and mobie are concerned, *all* e-reading is on a device
with a web browser. Often a substandard web browser, but since they
are web pages, they are inherently using web browsers.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Sjouke Burry <s@b> wrote in
news:XnsA03113A0E8899sj...@213.75.12.10:

> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:XnsA030A2C8C9F...@69.16.186.7:
>
>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
>> news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
>>> Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major
>>>>ebook formats out there today are just that. Everything else
>>>>is a simple software conversion.
> Rant on//
> Whats wrong with ascii?

Where did I say anything was wrong with it?

> All my books come equiped with it,
> SF books/stories (421 of them) I downloaded from Gutenburg,
> all in ascii.

And that's the point. It's universal. You can either read ASCII
files directly, or trivially convert them (and yes, there are more
than one format), on _any_ computer system out there.

> I dont need/want proprietry/drm/rootkit on my computer,
> and ebook readers like M$ Ebook, which cant even show ascii
> source, are only useful in dumping them in the trashcan.

Isn't that a dead format now? As in, even Microsoft doesn't bother
with it tany more? Tehre's a reason for that.

> Rant off//.
> What are people going to do in about 5-10 years, when their
> reader is not on the market/hardware anymore?
> Just forget about their books?

The plan is, you'll buy them again.

> Most of my books are 20+ years old, and I want to keep them
> if you dont mind.
> But drm/propriety is a surefire way to to kill a library.
>

Which is why it's a good thing that it's trivially easy to strip
off pretty much any DRM scheme, huh?

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote in
news:nns7o7pleikk2nimk...@4ax.com:

> On 09 Apr 2012 23:52:09 GMT, Sjouke Burry <s@b> wrote:
>
>>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:XnsA030A2C8C9F...@69.16.186.7:
>>
>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
>>> news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
>>>> Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major
>>>>>ebook formats out there today are just that. Everything else
>>>>>is a simple software conversion.
>>Rant on//
>>Whats wrong with ascii?
>
> Ask someone who only reads Chinese or Arabic, and don't be so
> provincial.

Unicode is pretty universal now, too, and encompases ASCII.

>
>> All my books come equiped with it,
>>SF books/stories (421 of them) I downloaded from Gutenburg,
>>all in ascii.
>>I dont need/want proprietry/drm/rootkit on my computer,
>
> Then what you mean to ask is "What's wrong with plain text
> encoding?".
>
> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe -
> mostly by Calibre.
>

I believe the iPad format is still a bit bitchy, but I think it's
been cracked, too.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in

news:jm02s8$eai$2...@dont-email.me:

Everybody needs a bitch slap from time to time.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On Apr 9, 2:23 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>
> > There are obvious
> > advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
> > finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
> > read.
>
>         This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?

So I am told. I don't find it that strange, for the sort of mindless
books frequently characterized as "beach reading". I don't make a
habit of reading such books, but there are circumstances where I am
reading for distraction more than content and don't expect to want to
read that book again. Come to think of it, there is a class of
popular or semi-popular non-fiction books which I sometimes seek out,
but don't expect to want to re-read. I turn to the library for such
books, partly so I don't have to buy the book but mostly so that I
don't have to find a place to keep it. There have been a few
instances where I was pleasantly surprised to realize that this book
was a keeper, and so I bought a copy after having already read it.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On Apr 10, 8:37 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 4/10/12 8:15 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
>
>
>

> > In article<jlv9fb$rt...@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com>  writes:

> >> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>
> >>> There are obvious
> >>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
> >>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
> >>> read.
>
> >>        This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
> >> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
> >> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
> >> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
> >> was afraid to maintain contact".
>
> > I can think of something more extreme than that. A friend of mine sat in
> > an airplane, next to somebody who tore each page out of the book that he
> > was reading as he finished it (the page). Apparently, that way he didn't
> > need a bookmark.
>
>         URGE TO KILL RISING... RISING...

Years ago I had a job as a book (as well as music and videos) vendor
to WalMart. The hardback and trade paper returns were shipped back to
the distribution center, but the mass market paperbacks were not. The
first few times I stood at the dumpster shoot stripping covers and
tossing the books was a bit startling. I got used to it.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Lynn McGuire]

It sure is nice to have a paperback in the
wilderness for emergencies.

I'm just saying.

Lynn

[Michael Stemper]

In article <0651ebe3-409f-47e7...@n19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> writes:
>On Apr 8, 10:22=A0pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

>> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:09:16 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> >books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
>> >unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
>> >grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware
>> >will be there to read it, and that the current asinine practices towards
>> >treating anything electronic as a temporary permission slip rather than
>> >ownership will tend to make anything ephemeral.
>>

>> Most dead tree books don't survive a century. =A0 I have old books and
>> magazines that I have to be very careful of.
>
>True, but it is entirely predictable which will last and which won't,
>based on the quality of the paper. The oldest volume which I have
>ever personally sat down and read was about five hundred years old
>(albeit with a modern library binding). The oldest volumes I
>personally own are about a hundred and fifty or so years old, while
>the oldest written document I personally own (a page from a missal) is
>about six hundred years old. But none of these were intended to be
>ephemeral. Newspapers or mass market paperbacks from fifty years ago
>are a different matter entirely.

I keep hearing about how MMPBs from the 1960s all fell apart in a few
years or something, due to the acid content of the paper. I have a lot
of MMPBs from the 1960s on my shelves, most of which have no problems
of this nature.

The only real exception that comes to my mind is Lancer. Their books
fall apart quite easily. But that's more a case of the pages coming
loose from the binding, not the paper disintegrating.

Enough people have talked about this at enough distinct times that
I'm sure there must be something to it. Why am I not seeing it?

(Not that I'm complaining, mind you.)

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <jm1rhh$ffk$1...@dont-email.me>,

I'm convinced Lancer didn't actually use glue. They just shuffled the
pages in like playing cards and closed the cover over them. The purple
was so nice, you weren't supposed to notice.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Robert Carnegie]

Ahem! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser

"A web browser is a software application for retrieving, presenting, and traversing information resources on the World Wide Web. An information resource is identified by a Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) and may be a web page, image, video, or other piece of content."

If an HTML document is retrieved from the
World Wide Web, using a URI, it is a web page.
If a copy of the document is retrieved from local
storage, it isn't a web page, it is a copy of a web page,
that looks like a web page, but isn't one. (I'm not
allowing "file://".) And if there aren't links
in it to other World Wide Web resources, then
it's a pretty poor web page anyway, and if your
document viewing program can't open those links
and display World Wide Web resources, then
IT ISN'T A WEB BROWSER. A WEB BROWSER CAN
RETRIEVE AND TRAVERSE RESOURCES ON THE WEB.

[Nix]

On 9 Apr 2012, Robert Carnegie told this:

> On Monday, April 9, 2012 6:14:39 PM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>> formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>> software conversion.
>

> No non-English type? No illustrations?

No italics? No layout? At all?

--
NULL && (void)

[Nix]

On 10 Apr 2012, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy verbalised:

> Hint: Both epub and mobi are, in every sense, web pages.

This is (barely) true of epub (it's a bunch of web pages in a zipfile,
with extra metadata), but completely untrue of mobi, which is a
compressed binary format with no resemblance to web pages whatsoever.
(In this it shows its age, more than anything else.)

--
NULL && (void)

[Nix]

On 10 Apr 2012, Jaimie Vandenbergh told this:

> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe - mostly by
> Calibre.

Not quite. In particular, Amazon's Topaz can be converted into HTML, but
what is converted is the crudely OCRed textual stream, intended only for
searching, which is as a consequence full of OCR errors: the majority of
the file is unconverted. The only people who have written true readers
(or, indeed, creators) for the Topaz file format are Amazon.

--
NULL && (void)

[Nix]

On 10 Apr 2012, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy said:
> Where epub and mobie are concerned, *all* e-reading is on a device
> with a web browser. Often a substandard web browser, but since they
> are web pages, they are inherently using web browsers.

The Mobipocket Reader software did not have or use a web browser,
and early Kindles didn't have one either.

--
NULL && (void)

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:42:06 +0100, Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk>
wrote:

Why on earth would they have the uncorrected text and good text as
well? That's just daft.

Given the complaints about Amazon-regenerated e-book content, sounds
like a lot of books only have the crudely OCR'ed stream.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"For our younger readers - books are hardened
bits of the internet that have fallen off."
-- http://www.e4.com/wtf/ispot-games/?sheet=28

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in

news:2596256.1104.1334082426675.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbf
j25:

> On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:20:51 PM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
>> news:29672043.2019.1334013060387.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@
>> vbb dy9:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:04:45 AM UTC+1, Gutless
>> > Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> >> Hint: Both epub and mobi are, in every sense, web pages.
>> >> Rename either (assuming it's not encryted) to end with .zip,
>> >> and you can open it up like any other zip file and edit the
>> >> HTML, or change the images, or whatever. It's a web page
>> >> minus the add-ons that make the web suck so much.
>> >
>> > And, technically, minus the web, I suppose.
>> > Although some e-reading is on a device with
>> > a web browser.
>> >
>> Where epub and mobie are concerned, *all* e-reading is on a
>> device with a web browser. Often a substandard web browser, but
>> since they are web pages, they are inherently using web
>> browsers.
>
> Ahem! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser
>

'Nuff said. An organization that has a published commitment to the
popularity contest that is the internet, even at the expense of
telling the truth.

Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads HTML files
isn't a web browser? Really?

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote in
news:87y5q3c...@spindle.srvr.nix:

You really don't get the idea of a markup lanuage, do you?

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote in
news:87ty0rc...@spindle.srvr.nix:

Last I heard, no, that's not true. If it's encrypted, yeah, it's
essentially a binary file, but if you rename an uncrypted .mobi to
end with .zip, it would open in Windows by just double clicking on
it.

[Wayne Throop]

: Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com>

: Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads HTML files

: isn't a web browser? Really?

If it can't traverse hyperlinks to other documents using http protocol,
at the very least, then sure, I'll deny it.

Can the epub and/or or mobi, uh, call it "rendering engines" in most
e-reading devices dereference arbitrary hyperlinks, or only a subset of
intra-book hyperlinks? Can they be pointed to an ar4bitrary http-based
URL at startup time? I dunno one way or another.

There are plenty of devices and/or software which can render to one
degree or another embedded html-alike formatting markup, but can't
follow a hyperlink. I don't consider them "web browsers".

Kindles, of course, have a webkit web browser builtin,
which is about as much of a browser as gnome epiphany is.
Which is to say, "they have a web browser".

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote in
news:87pqbfc...@spindle.srvr.nix:

Apprentice Alf - who wrote the Calibre plugin - does not agree. Says
that Topz is, basically, a graphic format, and that his script (not,
I think, the actual Caliber plugin, but the scripting it's based on)
will produce either the HTML file from the OCR, or an SVG file that's
readable in any browser than can handle SVG, or converted in to an
image only PDF easily.

And the Caliber plugin will handle the encryption, apparently, so my
statement is correct, both technically, and in reality.

You don't seem to know much about this subject. That's twice you've
been full of it.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote in

news:kg19o79kuj7cavca0...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:42:06 +0100, Nix
> <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 10 Apr 2012, Jaimie Vandenbergh told this:
>>> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe -
>>> mostly by Calibre.
>>
>>Not quite. In particular, Amazon's Topaz can be converted into
>>HTML, but what is converted is the crudely OCRed textual stream,
>>intended only for searching, which is as a consequence full of
>>OCR errors: the majority of the file is unconverted. The only
>>people who have written true readers (or, indeed, creators) for
>>the Topaz file format are Amazon.
>
> Why on earth would they have the uncorrected text and good text
> as well? That's just daft.

The uncorrected text is OCR from scans, and is apparently mostly
unedited. The "good text" is actually images, or glyphs, and the
Topaz format is largely a collection on instructions on where to put
them on the page.

http://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/ (and search for Topaz).

I'm guessing it's intended for quick-and-dirty conversions of scanned
books without the expense of actually proofreading.

>
> Given the complaints about Amazon-regenerated e-book content,
> sounds like a lot of books only have the crudely OCR'ed stream.

My understanding is that Topaz is pretty rare, though.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote in
news:87lim3c...@spindle.srvr.nix:

Since the file format, once you strip away the encryption, is HTML,
you are, once again, full of shit.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote in
news:13341...@sheol.org:

>: Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com>
>: Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads HTML
>: files isn't a web browser? Really?
>
> If it can't traverse hyperlinks to other documents using http
> protocol, at the very least, then sure, I'll deny it.

So far as I know, every major reader, the ones from Amazon, Sony
and Barnes & Noble, all follow hyperlinks just fine (they're used
for footnotes). And the http protocol works just fine to local
files.

>
> Can the epub and/or or mobi, uh, call it "rendering engines" in
> most e-reading devices dereference arbitrary hyperlinks, or only
> a subset of intra-book hyperlinks? Can they be pointed to an
> ar4bitrary http-based URL at startup time? I dunno one way or
> another.

My nook will open a hyperlink in the web browser if it isn't in the
local file system. No idea on others (though, obviously, the ones
that don't have any kind of wireless connectivity won't open a
remote web site).

>
> There are plenty of devices and/or software which can render to
> one degree or another embedded html-alike formatting markup, but
> can't follow a hyperlink. I don't consider them "web browsers".

On mine, a hyperlink looks *exactly* like a hyperlink in, say, IE
or Firefox. Blue, underlined, and takes you to a different place.

>
> Kindles, of course, have a webkit web browser builtin,
> which is about as much of a browser as gnome epiphany is.
> Which is to say, "they have a web browser".
>

Which is what I said. The file format *is* HTML, or at least a
subset of it. You real HTML files with a web browser, even if it's
a shitty one (as a web browser).

[Wayne Throop]

: Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com>

: So far as I know, every major reader, the ones from Amazon, Sony and

: Barnes & Noble, all follow hyperlinks just fine (they're used for
: footnotes). And the http protocol works just fine to local files.

Hm. That hasn't been my experience. Which may be more limited than yours.
Also... how does the http protocol work to local files? What does such
a url look like? http://localhost/a/b/c? Or just http:/a/b/c? Or what?
Something like http:a/b/c is something else again.

Anyways, if it doesn't handle http://j.random.host.com/a/b/c,
then it isn't a web browser.

FWIW (not much), I normally would access local files via file:///a/b/c;
using http doesn't even guarantee there are "files" involved, as such.

:: Kindles, of course, have a webkit web browser builtin, which is about

:: as much of a browser as gnome epiphany is. Which is to say, "they
:: have a web browser".

: Which is what I said.

NAICT, not the same thing. For one thing, the "webkit" part involves
things like managing bookmarks, filling in forms, and other things just
reading books doesn't.

IME the kindle browser is quite distinct from the kindle ebook reader.
The browser can't render ebooks, and the ebook reader can't dereference
URLs (if they point outside the book, especially to http protocol).
The ebook rendering engine and the webkit web browser are distinct.
So to say any device that has the rendering engine, but without the
capability of dealing with URLs "has a web browser" is at best misleading,
since it can't fetch pages by http protocol. That, both internally and
as parameters at startup, is pretty much required to be a "web browser",
and avoid being misleading about it.

Plus, iirc, if you dereference a link to an http page while you
are reading their blurbs at/after the end of a book, they ask you
if you want to start up the web browser if you happen upon something
that's a full-blown http url. So, again iirc, *they* (the folks who
designed what the kindle does in such cases) seem to think they
are distinct.

Plus too also, if the mobi and/or epub definition states what html
tags they are guaranteed to interpret (which I expect), and it's not
a full-enough set, then being able to read a mobi and/or epub document
isn't enough to imply that there's a web browser involved in it.

Now, I can't address all arbitrary e-book readers. But from the
way the kindle behaves, the two are distinct entities, fair and square.

Hey, everybody's their own Humpty-Dumpty, and your words can mean just
what you choose them to mean, neither more nor less, but functionally,
what you said was not the same as what I said. NAICT, IMO, YMMV, VWP.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:14:30 AM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote in
> news:13341...@sheol.org:
>

> > Kindles, of course, have a webkit web browser builtin,
> > which is about as much of a browser as gnome epiphany is.
> > Which is to say, "they have a web browser".
> >
> Which is what I said. The file format *is* HTML, or at least a
> subset of it. You real HTML files with a web browser, even if it's
> a shitty one (as a web browser).

Well, yes and no.
http://www.brothersoft.com/downloads/html-viewer.html
lists several programs that handle HTML and are
not web browsers, although in 2012 it isn't
immediately clear why you'd use some of them.

"Web" means connection to other documents, /usually/
including documents that aren't other parts of
the current work, and "browsing" means using
hyperlinks to move between WWW pages.

[David DeLaney]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>'Nuff said. An organization that has a published commitment to the
>popularity contest that is the internet, even at the expense of
>telling the truth.
>
>Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads HTML files
>isn't a web browser? Really?

...Notepad reads HTML files, and you can create HTML files in Notepad.

Are you perhaps wanting to say "parses the HTML in HTML files and acts on
it according to the HTML standards, producing the expected output"?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Konrad Gaertner]

Wayne Throop wrote:
>
> Hm. That hasn't been my experience. Which may be more limited than yours.
> Also... how does the http protocol work to local files? What does such
> a url look like? http://localhost/a/b/c? Or just http:/a/b/c? Or what?
> Something like http:a/b/c is something else again.
>
> Anyways, if it doesn't handle http://j.random.host.com/a/b/c,
> then it isn't a web browser.
>
> FWIW (not much), I normally would access local files via file:///a/b/c;
> using http doesn't even guarantee there are "files" involved, as such.

The home page for the browser I use at home is:
file:///C:/konrad/bookmark.htm

(It's the bookmark file from a previous browser.)

But while it's HTML, it's obviously not HTTP.


--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll

[Wayne Throop]

:: Anyways, if it doesn't handle http://j.random.host.com/a/b/c, then it

:: isn't a web browser.

: Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com>
: The home page for the browser I use at home is:
: file:///C:/konrad/bookmark.htm

So it also understands file: urls. Big woop, most web browsers do.
However, if it understands file: but not http:, imo it's not a
web browser. If it understands http: and not file:, it may
still be a web browser, but not t'other way 'round.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <9uja79...@mid.individual.net>, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:
>In article <jm1rhh$ffk$1...@dont-email.me>, Michael Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In article <0651ebe3-409f-47e7...@n19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> writes:
>>>On Apr 8, 10:22=A0pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

>>>> Most dead tree books don't survive a century. =A0 I have old books and
>>>> magazines that I have to be very careful of.
>>>
>>>True, but it is entirely predictable which will last and which won't,
>>>based on the quality of the paper. The oldest volume which I have

>>>ephemeral. Newspapers or mass market paperbacks from fifty years ago
>>>are a different matter entirely.
>>
>>I keep hearing about how MMPBs from the 1960s all fell apart in a few
>>years or something, due to the acid content of the paper. I have a lot
>>of MMPBs from the 1960s on my shelves, most of which have no problems
>>of this nature.
>>
>>The only real exception that comes to my mind is Lancer. Their books
>>fall apart quite easily. But that's more a case of the pages coming
>>loose from the binding, not the paper disintegrating.
>>
>
>I'm convinced Lancer didn't actually use glue. They just shuffled the
>pages in like playing cards and closed the cover over them. The purple
>was so nice, you weren't supposed to notice.

I really did like the purple.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

[DouhetSukd]

On Apr 8, 7:09 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>
>         Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have

> books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
> unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
> grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware

I on the other hand have changed continents 3-4 times to date and 5 or
6 places in all. i now live in about 850 sf, rental, no easily
installable shelf space. Each time I moved I had to leave books
behind.

Not acquiring too many dead tree books at retail is fully part of my
plans. Libraries and used book stores are the other parts. Not
saying ebooks are perfect, nor that your arguments are invalid. But
while your projections may pan out, 95-98% of my paperbacks have
already not lasted me even 25 years in practice.

You may cringe and evince disbelief at the sacrilegious idea of
leaving books behind, but that's how it worked out for me. Nor do I
regret too much not having hundreds of will-not-be-read-again
paperbacks littering my abode anymore.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <2596256.1104.1334082426675.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbfj25>, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:20:51 PM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:

>> Where epub and mobie are concerned, *all* e-reading is on a device=20
>> with a web browser. Often a substandard web browser, but since they=20

>> are web pages, they are inherently using web browsers.
>
>Ahem! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser
>

>"A web browser is a software application for retrieving, presenting, and tr=
>aversing information resources on the World Wide Web. An information resour=
>ce is identified by a Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) and may be a web pa=

>ge, image, video, or other piece of content."
>

>If an HTML document is retrieved from the=20

>World Wide Web, using a URI, it is a web page.

>If a copy of the document is retrieved from local=20

>storage, it isn't a web page, it is a copy of a web page,
>that looks like a web page, but isn't one. (I'm not

>allowing "file://".) And if there aren't links=20

>in it to other World Wide Web resources, then
>it's a pretty poor web page anyway, and if your

>document viewing program can't open those links=20
>and display World Wide Web resources, then=20
>IT ISN'T A WEB BROWSER. A WEB BROWSER CAN=20

>RETRIEVE AND TRAVERSE RESOURCES ON THE WEB.

A rather narrow definition, if I may say so.

What about corporate intranets? If something's written in HTML, but
hidden behind a firewall, does that make it not a web page?

I have a few hundred HTML thingies at home. I can call up FireFox and
look at them, since I'm also running Apache. (I could even do it on my
old WinDoze 98 box, with whatever the bastardized software was that was
included with the standard distro.)

I can follow links in their content to HTML thingies written by other
people -- if I've entered the password to my wireless router.

Does FireFox's status as a Web browser vary depending upon whether or
not I've connected to my router?

Is my copy of Apache not a Web server, since my ISP doesn't support
external access to it?

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

This sentence no verb.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 4/10/2012 11:26 AM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Lynn McGuire<l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> news:jm02s8$eai$2...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 4/9/2012 12:13 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire<l...@winsim.com> wrote in
>>> news:jlteo0$rpp$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> "A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":
>>>>
>>>> http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/A-lamentation-on-t
>>>> he -demise-of-books-and-other-3464868.php
>>>>
>>>> Wow does this ever express my thoughts about
>>>> ebooks. And some of my favorite authors are
>>>> now releasing new stories only in ebooks, i.e.
>>>> Jerry Pournelle and Co.:
>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Island-Avalon-Series-ebook/dp
>>>> /B0 07MSK4HM/
>>>>
>>>> "Please let my tombstone read: "I'll give up my
>>>> book when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
>>>> (accompanied by my necessary apologies to the
>>>> late actor Charlton Heston, who had famously
>>>> coined the phrase regarding his right to carry
>>>> a gun.)"
>>>
>>> Whiney little bitch who can't handle that other people make
>>> different choices than he does.
>>>
>>> "I'll give up my buggy whip when you pry it form my cold, dead
>>> fingers."
>>>
>>> Nobody *cares* if you keep using your buggy whipe, dude. The
>>> rest of us are too busy putting kerosine in our Stanely
>>> Steamers.
>>>>
>>>> I am feeling like a Luddite today.
>>>>
>>> You *are* a Luddite.
>>>
>>> I'm currently whining that there's a Discworld book not
>>> available in ebook format.
>>
>> Thank you !
>>
> Everybody needs a bitch slap from time to time.

Again, thank you. I am comfortable in my
Ludditeness and do not want to be rocked in my
beliefs. You have already moved on to the next
plane of existence and appear to be comfortable
there also.

I am still wondering if Amazon is going to provide
a POD (print on demand) system for us Luddites.
I have noticed that some of the ebook authors are
contracting with Subterranean Press for limited
editions of their books. And, many are also going
to www.lulu.com (I recommend these guys).

Lynn

[Par]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>:
> > "I am in the smallest room in the house. Your book is before me.
> > Soon it will be behind me."
>
> It sure is nice to have a paperback in the
> wilderness for emergencies.
>
> I'm just saying.

Given the choice of paperback book pages and sphagnum moss, the moss
wins 10 times out of 10 for that purpose. Absorbent and soft...

Par

--
Par use...@hunter-gatherer.org
The Hawaiian-Welsh Exchange:
Getting vowels and consonants to those in need.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> writes:

> On 09 Apr 2012 23:52:09 GMT, Sjouke Burry <s@b> wrote:
>
>>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:XnsA030A2C8C9F...@69.16.186.7:
>>
>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
>>> news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:

>>>
>>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>>>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
>>>>>formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
>>>>>software conversion.

>>Rant on//
>>Whats wrong with ascii?
>
> Ask someone who only reads Chinese or Arabic, and don't be so
> provincial.

How could I do that? I don't write Chinese or Arabic.

:-)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote in
news:13341...@sheol.org:

> Anyways, if it doesn't handle http://j.random.host.com/a/b/c,
> then it isn't a web browser.

If you say so. To people with a normal IQ, if it opens web pages,
it's a web browser.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in

news:11760118.3613.1334106695577.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbb
dy9:

To normal people, if it reads web pages, it's a web browser.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in
news:slrnjo9rf...@gatekeeper.vic.com:

> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>'Nuff said. An organization that has a published commitment to
>>the popularity contest that is the internet, even at the expense
>>of telling the truth.
>>
>>Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads HTML
>>files isn't a web browser? Really?
>
> ...Notepad reads HTML files, and you can create HTML files in
> Notepad.

OK, if your dick is so small that you literally can't get off the
pedantic high horse, then let me amend that:

Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads _and
renders_ HTML files isn't a web browser? Really?

>
> Are you perhaps wanting to say "parses the HTML in HTML files
> and acts on it according to the HTML standards, producing the
> expected output"?
>

Are you deliberately trying to change the subject to avoid having to
agree with me when I'm clearly right, or are you just stupid?

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote in
news:jm4c69$1so$1...@dont-email.me:

> In article
> <2596256.1104.1334082426675.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbfj2

According to Bobbie, that is correct. It's only a web page if it's
on the WWW, which is to say, accessible through the internet.

At the same time, if I put up a web page that is visible to the
internet, and on it is a link to a local file on your own hard
drive, and that local file has links back to the internet, that
local file would be a web page, but a local file that doesn't have
links back to the internet wouldn't

Which is to say, he's an idiot.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in

news:jm4dud$e1l$1...@dont-email.me:

I did not mean to imply that being a Luddite was in any way bad. In
many ways, even as an IT professional, I am a Luddite about new
gadgets, too. But we do want to label people clearly, so that when
the revolution comes, we know who to stand against the wall (which
will depend on who the revlutionaries are, and which side you're
on, of course).

> You have already moved on to the next
> plane of existence and appear to be comfortable
> there also.

I created the next plane of existence, and define what is good and
proper. At least in my world.

>
> I am still wondering if Amazon is going to provide
> a POD (print on demand) system for us Luddites.

Seems unlikely at this point, but you never know.

> I have noticed that some of the ebook authors are
> contracting with Subterranean Press for limited
> editions of their books. And, many are also going
> to www.lulu.com (I recommend these guys).
>

There are several POD services for independent publishers, Lulu
being one of the better known ones. If you're looking for someone
reliable, get in touch with Greg Porter at BTRC. Last I heard, he
was always reevaluating who he was doing business with, and he's a
pretty smart guy (and picky as hell on quality control).

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote in
news:ylfkhawp...@dd-b.net:

> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> writes:
>
>> On 09 Apr 2012 23:52:09 GMT, Sjouke Burry <s@b> wrote:
>>
>>>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:XnsA030A2C8C9F...@69.16.186.7:
>>>
>>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
>>>> news:5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:14:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
>>>>> Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major
>>>>>>ebook formats out there today are just that. Everything else
>>>>>>is a simple software conversion.
>>>Rant on//
>>>Whats wrong with ascii?
>>
>> Ask someone who only reads Chinese or Arabic, and don't be so
>> provincial.
>
> How could I do that? I don't write Chinese or Arabic.
>
>:-)

You could have Google translate for you. Wouldn't help you
communicate at all, but at least everybody'd get a good laugh and the
manglish.

[erilar]

In article <jlteo0$rpp$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

> "A lamentation on the demise of books and other artifacts":
>
> http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/A-lamentation-on-the-demise-of-bo
> oks-and-other-3464868.php
>
> Wow does this ever express my thoughts about
> ebooks. And some of my favorite authors are
> now releasing new stories only in ebooks, i.e.
> Jerry Pournelle and Co.:
> http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Island-Avalon-Series-ebook/dp/B007MSK4HM/
>
> "Please let my tombstone read: "I'll give up my
> book when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
> (accompanied by my necessary apologies to the
> late actor Charlton Heston, who had famously
> coined the phrase regarding his right to carry
> a gun.)"
>

> I am feeling like a Luddite today.

I often have that feeling. I really prefer reading real books made of
paper, too. Nevertheless, I do have quite a few books on my iPad--nice
for travel--but they're almost all free, and not the main reason I
bought it. Now that I'm retired and all my thousands of books* are
living in the same small house, I get my paper fiction from the library,
which doesn't require permanent shelf space. This doesn't stop me from
buying other kinds of books, however.

*footnote: I don't know how many books I have. There are some
3000(estimate) paperbacks 4 deep in 8 vertical rows along one wall, but
the other bookcases have too many varied sizes to figure an average.
And there's the overflow in the attic over the garage, and some shelves
in the garage. . .

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article
<14122336.633.1333999787369.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbbg2>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 9, 2012 6:14:39 PM UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

> wrote:
> > ASCII isn't going anywhere. And ultimately, both the major ebook
> > formats out there today are just that. Everything else is a simple
> > software conversion.
>

> No non-English type? No illustrations?

Maps! Charts! Things too big for the e-book screens!

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

> I do love being able to look up a word (or more) in an e-book
> instantly.

That's a nuisance when you're simply trying to check the number of pages
left in an ebook you're reading and it keeps trying to look up a word
instead, though 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <nns7o7pleikk2nimk...@4ax.com>,

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe - mostly by
> Calibre.

Why bother when the apps to read them are all free?

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <jlv9fb$rtq$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
> > There are obvious
> > advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
> > finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
> > read.
>
> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
> was afraid to maintain contact".

There are those of us who cannot understand this mindset at all. I do
give books to the local library for their periodic used book sales, but
I have only left a book behind in the hands of someone who will pass it
on or once in a library on a ship I was travelling on. I DO abandon
magazines other than National Geographic, however 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <jm19i9$1ej$3...@dont-email.me>,

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> On 4/10/12 8:15 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
> > In article<jlv9fb$rtq$1...@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.

> > Spoor)"<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >> On 4/9/12 2:04 PM, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
> >
> >>> There are obvious
> >>> advantages for the type of book which, in paperback form, once you
> >>> finished it you would simply leave on a table for someone else to
> >>> read.
> >>
> >> This sentence is obviously a well constructed sentence, but it refers
> >> to something I can't imagine existing. Are there REALLY people out there
> >> who will read a book (to the end), and then just leave the book behind?
> >> My assumption on "leave book behind" is "didn't finish, sucked so much I
> >> was afraid to maintain contact".
> >

> > I can think of something more extreme than that. A friend of mine sat in
> > an airplane, next to somebody who tore each page out of the book that he
> > was reading as he finished it (the page). Apparently, that way he didn't
> > need a bookmark.
>
> URGE TO KILL RISING... RISING...

Beat me to it!

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <jm1q4c$892$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

> On 4/10/2012 8:18 AM, Bill Snyder wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:37:28 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

> > "I am in the smallest room in the house. Your book is before me.
> > Soon it will be behind me."
>
> It sure is nice to have a paperback in the
> wilderness for emergencies.
>
> I'm just saying.
>

> Lynn

They used to keep an old Sears catalog in the outhouse, back before it
went slick.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <jm1d9s$nt6$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> On 4/10/12 9:37 AM, Bill Snyder wrote:

> > Seriously, at least you know a destroyed copy won't be going to
> > the used book store and maybe costing you a sale of a new copy.
> >
> >
>
> That's not the way it works. The copies in circulation promote more
> sales overall. Removing the used books eliminates potential additional
> sales from that type of word-of-mouth. There's a REASON the Baen Free
> Library contains lots of titles that can still be -- and ARE! -- bought
> from Baen.

Baen freebies hook people into acquiring more books by the same authors
8-)

I belong to another list where authors list one-day free offers of some
of their books from time to time. I now have several more authors on my
books-to-look-for list 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Scott Lurndal]

erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> writes:
>In article <nns7o7pleikk2nimk...@4ax.com>,
> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
>> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe - mostly by
>> Calibre.
>
>Why bother when the apps to read them are all free?

Because not all the apps are available for Linux.

scott

[Wayne Throop]

: Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com>

: If you say so. To people with a normal IQ, if it opens web pages,

: it's a web browser.

Sure. And many-maybe-most people would say a page reachable via a
file:///a/b/c style URL "is a web page" in colloquial use. I would.
But if these "people with a normal IQ" you mention were to discover their
rendering engine doesn't know what to do with http://j.random.host/a/b/c
URLs, didn't handle flash content, didn't do tables and frames and forms
and scrolling, they would most likely say it's not a genuine web browser,
since it can't access 99.999 percent of the web pages most people with
normal IQs want to access. Mostly due to that first missing feature.
That being the case, it's entirely reasonable to say that a rendering
engine with those limitations is "not a web browser".

And that's speaking as somebody who would count lynx or links as
"a limited text-only web browser". If, however, it could *only* read
html files from the local filesystem, I wouldn't.

And I rather expect most "people with a normal IQ" would come to much
the same convention, if they weren't trying to be difficult and/or
confrontational about it.

[Robert Carnegie]

To the last two, yes and yes. There is a World Wide Web
of web pages. Broadly, you can browse all of it - the
fully connected body - or none. If you're not online then
you aren't browsing /the/ web.

[David DeLaney]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in

>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads HTML
>>>files isn't a web browser? Really?
>>
>> ...Notepad reads HTML files, and you can create HTML files in Notepad.
>
>OK, if your dick is so small that you literally can't get off the
>pedantic high horse, then let me amend that:
>
>Are you seriously going to claim that a device which reads _and
>renders_ HTML files isn't a web browser? Really?

Thank you for the clarification!

>> Are you perhaps wanting to say "parses the HTML in HTML files
>> and acts on it according to the HTML standards, producing the
>> expected output"?
>
>Are you deliberately trying to change the subject to avoid having to
>agree with me when I'm clearly right, or are you just stupid?

The 'clearly' wasn't. Knowing what you mean doesn't mean you've typed it.

And I can be stupid if I wanna!

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 4/11/12 10:06 AM, DouhetSukd wrote:
> On Apr 8, 7:09 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Eh. My thoughts on Ebooks are that they're great things but I have
>> books that I can pick up and read that are a hundred years old. I am
>> unconvinced that books I have on my Kindle today will be there for my
>> grandchildren 50 years from now -- both because I doubt the hardware
>
> I on the other hand have changed continents 3-4 times to date and 5 or
> 6 places in all. i now live in about 850 sf, rental, no easily
> installable shelf space. Each time I moved I had to leave books
> behind.

You are an outlier among outliers. I suspect you're at least four to
five standard deviations out on the bell curve.

>
> Not acquiring too many dead tree books at retail is fully part of my
> plans. Libraries and used book stores are the other parts. Not
> saying ebooks are perfect, nor that your arguments are invalid. But
> while your projections may pan out, 95-98% of my paperbacks have
> already not lasted me even 25 years in practice.

A large proportion of mine have lasted over 40 years, as I inherited
quite a collection from my father.

>
> You may cringe and evince disbelief at the sacrilegious idea of
> leaving books behind, but that's how it worked out for me.

I cringe at the idea of buying it TO leave behind, rather than (as you
seem to imply) leaving it behind because you can't afford the
space/weight when moving.

Nor do I
> regret too much not having hundreds of will-not-be-read-again
> paperbacks littering my abode anymore.

Anything I buy, I intend to read at least twice. No point in buying it
otherwise.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:00:16 -0500, erilar
<dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:

>In article <5n96o7t99psvtvhbs...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>> I do love being able to look up a word (or more) in an e-book
>> instantly.
>
>That's a nuisance when you're simply trying to check the number of pages
>left in an ebook you're reading and it keeps trying to look up a word
>instead, though 8-)

Try a different reader.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Joy Beeson]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:40:41 +0000 (UTC),
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

> If something's written in HTML, but
> hidden behind a firewall, does that make it not a web page?

Yes, just as being in Kokomo makes Boulevard Avenue not a Fort Wayne
street.

In what sense can something that isn't on a web be a web page?

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

[jack...@bright.net]

Sea Wasp wrote:

>On 4/11/12 10:06 AM, DouhetSukd wrote:

>> You may cringe and evince disbelief at the sacrilegious idea of
>> leaving books behind, but that's how it worked out for me.
>
> I cringe at the idea of buying it TO leave behind, rather than (as you
>seem to imply) leaving it behind because you can't afford the
>space/weight when moving.

Think of it as renting.

--
-Jack

[Nix]

On 11 Apr 2012, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy said:
> The uncorrected text is OCR from scans, and is apparently mostly
> unedited. The "good text" is actually images, or glyphs, and the
> Topaz format is largely a collection on instructions on where to put
> them on the page.

Yep.

> http://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/ (and search for Topaz).
>
> I'm guessing it's intended for quick-and-dirty conversions of scanned
> books without the expense of actually proofreading.

It's intended for books where no etext is available. The idea is that
publishers can send a single copy of such a book to Amazon, who'll scan
it repeatedly at several resolutions (to allow users to change font
sizes), engage in the insanely CPU-hungry process of identifying common
patterns in the page-text images, OCR it, and put the result together
into a book which looks identical to the original but is reflowable and
sort of searchable (OCR typos in a text stream used only for searching
are unlikely to be noticeable).

It works remarkably well. The only caveat is that the font for each such
book is different from the font used for all mobi books. But given that
the alternative for these books is no ebook copy at all, I think this is
a good tradeoff.

(Actually, there is a third alternative: really really bad OCR
conversion by the publisher, with the awful OCR stream used as the only
source text. The horrible '40th Anniversary Edition' of Dune is one
such. In the first paragraph it tells us that 'Paul was bom on Caladan'.
OCR typos continue at the rate of three or four a page from then on,
along with frequent failures to switch from italic to normal text or
vice versa. Worse yet, the paper copy of this edition allegedly contains
the same typos! Just buy an old NEL printing of Dune instead: all
published copies appear to be worse than nothing.)

--
NULL && (void)

[Nix]

On 11 Apr 2012, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy uttered the following:

> Apprentice Alf - who wrote the Calibre plugin - does not agree. Says
> that Topz is, basically, a graphic format, and that his script (not,
> I think, the actual Caliber plugin, but the scripting it's based on)
> will produce either the HTML file from the OCR, or an SVG file that's
> readable in any browser than can handle SVG, or converted in to an
> image only PDF easily.

Ooo! It's improved, then. Last I heard, the SVG side of things did not
exist, and you just got the textual stream.

> You don't seem to know much about this subject. That's twice you've
> been full of it.

Charmed, I'm sure.

--
NULL && (void)

[Nix]

On 11 Apr 2012, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy stated:

> Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote in
> news:87lim3c...@spindle.srvr.nix:

>
>> On 10 Apr 2012, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy said:
>>> Where epub and mobie are concerned, *all* e-reading is on a

>>> device with a web browser. Often a substandard web browser, but
>>> since they are web pages, they are inherently using web
>>> browsers.
>>
>> The Mobipocket Reader software did not have or use a web
>> browser, and early Kindles didn't have one either.
>>
> Since the file format, once you strip away the encryption, is HTML,
> you are, once again, full of shit.

You're wrong as a matter of simple fact. I've written a mobi reader:
have you?

There is no HTML in there.

epub is XHTML. mobi is not. They are quite different (though not as
different as Topaz is from either of them.)

--
NULL && (void)

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:09:03 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote in
>news:kg19o79kuj7cavca0...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:42:06 +0100, Nix
>> <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Apr 2012, Jaimie Vandenbergh told this:

>>>> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe -
>>>> mostly by Calibre.
>>>

>>>Not quite. In particular, Amazon's Topaz can be converted into
>>>HTML, but what is converted is the crudely OCRed textual stream,
>>>intended only for searching, which is as a consequence full of
>>>OCR errors: the majority of the file is unconverted. The only
>>>people who have written true readers (or, indeed, creators) for
>>>the Topaz file format are Amazon.
>>
>> Why on earth would they have the uncorrected text and good text
>> as well? That's just daft.

>
>The uncorrected text is OCR from scans, and is apparently mostly
>unedited. The "good text" is actually images, or glyphs, and the
>Topaz format is largely a collection on instructions on where to put
>them on the page.

Holy crap. That's an astonishingly Rube Goldberg way of getting stuff
onto a screen.

Scales economically rather better than proofreaders I suppose.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Hard as nails, hard as nails - So would you be if you lived one hundred
and eighty years on sunflower seeds and biscuit crumbs." - Polynesia

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:01:03 -0500, erilar
<dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:

>In article <nns7o7pleikk2nimk...@4ax.com>,
> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
>> Every current ebook format can be cracked open, I believe - mostly by
>> Calibre.
>
>Why bother when the apps to read them are all free?

So you can *own* the stuff you've bought, rather than have it licensed
to you in a format that ten years down the line nothing will be able
to read.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Every time we start thinking we're the center of the universe, the
universe turns around and says with a slightly distracted air,
'I'm sorry. What'd you say your name was again?' -- Margaret Maron

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 22:58:29 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> Anything I buy, I intend to read at least twice. No point in buying it
>otherwise.

Or if you intend to share the book.

I buy magazines and newspapers without intending to read them twice.
And I know there are books that I have bought and will never read
again (I just don't always know *which* ones).

There are books that I very much enjoy reading once that aren't
available to be borrowed.

[David DeLaney]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Anything I buy, I intend to read at least twice. No point in buying it
>>otherwise.
>
>Or if you intend to share the book.

Anything I buy is because it at least looked interesting enough to read once.
Once in a long while this expectation is not met; I'm usually accumulating
a very small pile of "McKay's Books will want this" books.

>I buy magazines and newspapers without intending to read them twice.

Magazines yes. Newspapers... well, some years back I realized that it was
finally Later, and that I should start reading the newspaper comics/comics
pages I'd been setting aside for Later. This project is proceeding slowly
but steadily.

>And I know there are books that I have bought and will never read
>again (I just don't always know *which* ones).

This exactly. I reread _some_ books as I'm going through and shuffling newer
ones into the collection, but by no means all.

>There are books that I very much enjoy reading once that aren't
>available to be borrowed.

This semi-exactly, crossed with "if I don't buy it when I see it this time
at the bookstore it may well never be there again".

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> writes:

> (Actually, there is a third alternative: really really bad OCR
> conversion by the publisher, with the awful OCR stream used as the only
> source text. The horrible '40th Anniversary Edition' of Dune is one
> such. In the first paragraph it tells us that 'Paul was bom on Caladan'.

And that's not even a word, basic spill-chucking should have caught it.

> OCR typos continue at the rate of three or four a page from then on,
> along with frequent failures to switch from italic to normal text or
> vice versa. Worse yet, the paper copy of this edition allegedly contains
> the same typos! Just buy an old NEL printing of Dune instead: all
> published copies appear to be worse than nothing.)

I've got what's technically a first-edition hardcover, in excellent
shape since I largely re-read my old paperback. (It's umpteenth
printing, it's not worth much of anything.)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info