GRRM & the Wars of the Roses
David Cowie
I often hear that _A Song of Ice and Fire_ bears a relationship to the
Wars of the Roses in medieval England. How would going out and reading
about the real struggle between the houses of York and Lancaster affect my
experience of reading about the houses of Stark and Lannister in ASOIAF?
On a lighter note, who would you cast in a film of ASOIAF? I can't seem to
get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who is
also ruthlessly ambitious. Kidman is a beautiful woman, and in recent
photos at least there seems to be something cold and hard-edged about her.
And on an even lighter note: the copyright page of my copies says
"Set in Trump Medieval". But of course!
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
Timothy McDaniel
David Cowie <see...@lineone.net> wrote:
>I often hear that _A Song of Ice and Fire_ bears a relationship to
>the Wars of the Roses in medieval England.
The relationship is not identity, mind you: the history has diverged
already (and a looming incredible danger from the North will make it
REALLY divergent).
>How would going out and reading about the real struggle between the
>houses of York and Lancaster affect my experience of reading about
>the houses of Stark and Lannister in ASOIAF?
Hmmm. It didn't add much to my enjoyment. For a while I had the
dubious pleasure of being slightly distracted by the parallels, and
then slightly distracted when I noticed differences.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com; tm...@us.ibm.com is my work address
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<see...@lineone.net> wrote:
>I often hear that _A Song of Ice and Fire_ bears a relationship to the
>Wars of the Roses in medieval England.
The Wars of Roses are just a part of what formed _A Song of Ice and
Fire_.
>How would going out and reading
>about the real struggle between the houses of York and Lancaster affect my
>experience of reading about the houses of Stark and Lannister in ASOIAF?
You might better appreciate the starkness of their experiences. :-)
No direct relation between them.
vlatko
--
http://www.niribanimeso.org/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
David Cowie
>
> The relationship is not identity, mind you: the history has diverged
> already (and a looming incredible danger from the North will make it
> REALLY divergent).
>
I know that England hasn't been invaded by ice zombies, but I did wonder
if Scotland was troublesome at that period.
Duffy Pratt
Jaime or Jon.
Duffy
"David Cowie" <see...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.09.05....@lineone.net...
Timothy McDaniel
>> The relationship is not identity, mind you: the history has diverged
>> already (and a looming incredible danger from the North will make it
>> REALLY divergent).
>
>I know that England hasn't been invaded by ice zombies, but I did
>wonder if Scotland was troublesome at that period.
I worded it carefully: _incredible_ danger. Scots invaded England
with some frequency, but they were never a fundamental danger to
English government ... OK, OK, 1745, if Bonnie Prince Charlie had just
pushed a little bit more southward, but that was special
circumstances.
The usual result was (from memory):
Every so often, the lords of Scotland would organize an invasion
of England. That means that they'd scrape up all the men who
could possibly be called 'able to fight' and aim them in the
general direction of the border. The Warden of the East March
would look up from his brooding over the unfair fate that got him
named 'Percy', see a horde of hairy-legged screaming men in
dresses running at him, gather up all the Boy Scout troops in the
vicinity, and annihilate the flower of Scottish manhood for a
generation.
-- Richard Hershberger
Elio M. García Jr.
> Having just finished _A Clash of Kings_, I have a couple of questions.
>
> I often hear that _A Song of Ice and Fire_ bears a relationship to the
> Wars of the Roses in medieval England. How would going out and reading
> about the real struggle between the houses of York and Lancaster affect my
> experience of reading about the houses of Stark and Lannister in ASOIAF?
Not too much, I think. It's interesting, but things have diverged
a lot. Martin has cited the Wars of the Roses himself, and (to give one
example) noted the strong similarities between Edward IV and Robert
Baratheon. It's certainly interesting ... but it does diverge quite a
lot, and pretty quickly.
>
> On a lighter note, who would you cast in a film of ASOIAF? I can't seem to
> get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who is
> also ruthlessly ambitious. Kidman is a beautiful woman, and in recent
> photos at least there seems to be something cold and hard-edged about her.
Martin himself cited Nicole Kidman for Cersei, at a chat (on the
Sci-fi channel, I believe; there's a transcript, but the casting
discussion came after they shot off the log). I concur. He also
suggested Cary Elwes for Jaime, a younger Ron Perlman (whom he worked
with on Beauty & the Beast) for Sandor Clegane, Roy Dotrice (also from
B&tB) for Barristan Selmy, and Adrian Paul as Renly or a younger Robert.
For the Hound now, Vin Diesel works for me. He's got that gravely
voice and muscular physique, even if he's about 9 inches too short.
Jaime ... well, the young Kingslayer on the Iron Throne is my main image
of him, and a younger Jude Law (circa WILDE) fits that image to a T. A
small image from the film to illustrate:
http://www.oscarwilde.com/images/pictures/bosie.jpg
I always thought Kristin Scott Thomas would be a great Catelyn.
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Elio M. García, Jr. (el...@tele2.se) -- www.westeros.org
James Angove
@reader2.panix.com:
>
> The usual result was (from memory):
>
> Every so often, the lords of Scotland would organize an invasion
> of England. That means that they'd scrape up all the men who
> could possibly be called 'able to fight' and aim them in the
> general direction of the border. The Warden of the East March
> would look up from his brooding over the unfair fate that got him
> named 'Percy', see a horde of hairy-legged screaming men in
> dresses running at him, gather up all the Boy Scout troops in the
> vicinity, and annihilate the flower of Scottish manhood for a
> generation.
> -- Richard Hershberger
>
I've seen that quote before, variously attributed (you yourself attributed
it to someone named Roland at least once); do you know where I can find the
original? Google is being fairly unhelpful.
--
James Angove
This is a usenet post. It is likely you will be eaten by a grue.
David Cowie
> I'd cast Miss Piggy as Cersei. But I can't figure out if Kermit should be
> Jaime or Jon.
>
No, no, no. Kermit as Tyrion.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> I'd cast Miss Piggy as Cersei. But I can't figure out if Kermit should be
> Jaime or Jon.
Yay! Another Muppets thread... (I'm still giggling over the last one
and the image of Boromir saying "Waka waka!")
Sam the American Eagle for Ned.
Kermit's nephew for Jon.
Gonzo for Littlefinger. Or maybe Dany.
Miss Piggy for Arya or Sansa (or both: use different wigs).
Animal for one of the Cleganes.
--KG
Andrew Plotkin
> Duffy Pratt wrote:
> >
> > I'd cast Miss Piggy as Cersei. But I can't figure out if Kermit should be
> > Jaime or Jon.
>
> Yay! Another Muppets thread... (I'm still giggling over the last one
> and the image of Boromir saying "Waka waka!")
I missed that one. This one, however, is a terrible thing to unleash
upon the universe. Fie.
Now let me think.
> Sam the American Eagle for Ned.
> Kermit's nephew for Jon.
> Gonzo for Littlefinger. Or maybe Dany.
> Miss Piggy for Arya or Sansa (or both: use different wigs).
> Animal for one of the Cleganes.
Grr, been too long since I read them.
Snookums is Hodor. I mean, Snookums *is* Hodor.
Ernie and Bert as the ice fae. They sing, of course.
Sansa is Janice, suurrreeely. Kermit has to be Jaime, to go with Piggy
as Cersei. Arya... Scooter.
I'm trying to place Tyrion and I'm having a terrible time. Rolf?
Gonzo has to be Dany, if only to have giant fire-breathing chickens as
pets.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On a lighter note, who would you cast in a film of ASOIAF? I can't seem
> to get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who
> is also ruthlessly ambitious. Kidman is a beautiful woman, and in recent
> photos at least there seems to be something cold and hard-edged about her.
I agree with Nicole Kidman, and also with whoever suggested Vin Diesel for
Sandor Clegane - I was about to suggest the same thing myself. I'm also a
big fan of Liam Neeson for Ned Stark.
Who else? Hm. Jason Isaacs - you know, Lucius Malfoy - for Tywin
Lannister. And maybe by the same token Tom Felton (Draco Malfoy) for
Joffrey. Someone once suggested Johnny Depp with makeup and camera tricks
for Tyrion; I'm not sure how much I agree with that. Anna Paquin as
Daenerys? Patrick Stewart as Stannis. John Rhys-Davies as Greatjon Umber?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Sean
>Snookums is Hodor. I mean, Snookums *is* Hodor.
Agreed, though that leaves a dearth of giant sized muppets to be the Mountain
That Rides... Maybe Big Bird could be Ser Gregor. Oh, I'm going to hell.
>Kermit has to be Jaime, to go with Piggy
>as Cersei.
Agreed there too. Though if Kermit is Jaime, I'm gonna have to disagree with
the poster who cast Robin as Jon. Robin, looking so much like his 'uncle', is
clearly Joffrey.
>I'm trying to place Tyrion and I'm having a terrible time. Rolf?
Gah! Rolf is surely fated to be cast as Sandor. For some reason I'm having a
really disturbing image of Lew Zealand as Tyrion, though. I'm sure they can
work in a scene where Tyrion has to throw some halibut at people. Failing that,
Oscar the Grouch certainly has Tyrions way with words.
>Gonzo has to be Dany, if only to have giant fire-breathing chickens as
>pets.
...I revise my concept of really disturbing images. Gonzo in drag tops that.
And how about Animal as Drogo?
Hmm. What else...
One of the Pigs in Space pigs for Samwell.
Doctor Honeydew as Varys. And once you have that in mind, it only takes half a
step to imagine Beaker as Grand Maester Pycelle. And perhaps Dr. Teeth can be
Littlefinger.
The Swedish Chef is just begging to be included in some way. Thoros of Myr,
maybe?
The Count as Roose Bolton. 'I see five! Five leeches, ah-ah-ah.!'
'For the future let those who come to play with me have no hearts'
-Oscar Wilde, "The Birthday of the Infanta"
John F. Carr
Timothy McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>The usual result was (from memory):
>
> Every so often, the lords of Scotland would organize an invasion
> of England. That means that they'd scrape up all the men who
> could possibly be called 'able to fight' and aim them in the
> general direction of the border. The Warden of the East March
> would look up from his brooding over the unfair fate that got him
> named 'Percy', see a horde of hairy-legged screaming men in
> dresses running at him, gather up all the Boy Scout troops in the
> vicinity, and annihilate the flower of Scottish manhood for a
> generation.
> -- Richard Hershberger
Niven's inspiration for the evolving Kzinti?
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Here, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Duffy Pratt wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd cast Miss Piggy as Cersei. But I can't figure out if Kermit should be
> > > Jaime or Jon.
> >
> > Yay! Another Muppets thread... (I'm still giggling over the last one
> > and the image of Boromir saying "Waka waka!")
>
> I missed that one.
I remember renaming the thread "Lord of the Muppets" if you want to
find it.
> This one, however, is a terrible thing to unleash upon the universe. Fie.
>
> Now let me think.
>
> Grr, been too long since I read them.
Me too. Not since SoS came out I believe.
> Snookums is Hodor. I mean, Snookums *is* Hodor.
Is Snookums the big hairy guy who worked in the used car lot in the
first movie? ("Jack not name, Jack *job*!")
Hmm, since there really aren't that many interesting Muppets, why
not call it a stage production as an excuse to double up on roles.
--KG
Timothy McDaniel
James Angove <ja...@ospf.net> wrote:
>I've seen that quote before, variously attributed (you yourself
>attributed it to someone named Roland at least once); do you know
>where I can find the original? Google is being fairly unhelpful.
I found the original. It was by Richard R. Hershberger, known in the
Society for Creative Anachronism as Rouland Carre. It was from the
SCA Heralds' mailing list in 1996. I got his permission to quote him,
but I didn't ask the others in the reply chain, so I have to
paraphrase the others.
I should note that there's occasionally good-natured teasing about
people's choices of nationalities of their mediaeval personae -- but
it's good-natured because by and large American SCAers were raised in
America. Nothing serious is meant by it, and it's not meant to
reflect on modern nations. Also, such people who are teased tend to
give back what they got.
At 3:45 PM +0000 11/21/96, Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
On a serious note, Hadrian's wall was built to defend against the
_Picts_. The Scots didn't exist yet, at least not as a group
distinct from the Irish, and the ancestors of the Scots were still
in Scotia, which is to say Ireland.
On a more recreational note, consider this common pattern in
English history: The king with his army is off fighting in France,
as is good, right, and proper. The Scots look up from their
cattle raids on each other and realize that the vast bulk of
English military power is in France. They promptly "organize",
which for Scots means that they are all more or less facing south,
and pour across the border. The English Warden of the East March
looks up from sulking over the cruel fate which gave him the name
"Percy" to see a screaming horde of hairy barbarians wearing
dresses. He quickly collects the local garrisons, Boy Scout
troups, and 4-H clubs and in a glorious battle destroys the cream
of Scottish military prowess.
[Later, someone mentioned the prowess of Highlanders, especially at
Bannockburn.]
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.1996112...@mail.americanteleport.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:53:46 +0000
From: "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhers...@americanteleport.com>
Subject: Re: Scots (was Re: Fighting Unit Names)
To: SCAH...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Once again I am forced into a serious answer: if I recall my
Scottish history, and believe me this is not my specialty, the
number of Highlanders at Bannockburn was small. (Effrick, am I
right about this?)
We now return to our previously scheduled entertainment: Ah,
Bannockburn! What can we learn from Bannockburn? Well, if you
take one of the greatest leaders in Scottish history and put him
up against one of the most ineffectual kings in English history
you can manage to squeeze a Scottish victory out of it.
What more can we learn about Scottish victories? It would be oh,
so nice if we could detect a pattern, but it is hard to do this
with but a single data point.
Pax,
Rouland,
who has broken his resolve to pick on the French rather than the Scots
Jeffrey C. Dege
>get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who is
>also ruthlessly ambitious. Kidman is a beautiful woman, and in recent
>photos at least there seems to be something cold and hard-edged about her.
That's the Botox.
--
The right to buy weapons is the right to be free.
Craig Richardson
wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:59:41 +0000, David Cowie <see...@lineone.net> wrote:
>>
>>On a lighter note, who would you cast in a film of ASOIAF? I can't seem to
>>get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who is
>>also ruthlessly ambitious. Kidman is a beautiful woman, and in recent
>>photos at least there seems to be something cold and hard-edged about her.
>
>That's the Botox.
I disagree. She's cold and hard-edged. The Botox just makes it seem
that she hasn't changed much in the past ten years - it's much more
difficult to be iron in your twenties than your thirties.
--Craig
--
I start to wish Bob Melvin would walk out to the mound, ask Freddy if he
was injured, and then kick him in the balls so he can call in an
emergency replacement from the bullpen --Derek Zumsteg in BP, 5/13/2003
Christopher Adams
(Nicole Kidman)
> I disagree. She's cold and hard-edged. The Botox just makes it seem
> that she hasn't changed much in the past ten years - it's much more
> difficult to be iron in your twenties than your thirties.
I think that however many years of living with a prominent Scientologist when
you're just a Catholic girl from Australia would do that. ;)
--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003
When I awakened, I was not as I had been.
"A portfolio of erotic 'Buffy' fan-fiction does not a writer make."
- Neil, www.goats.com
Duffy Pratt
"Konrad Gaertner" <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3F5A4E34...@worldnet.att.net...
In my opinion, there are more interesting Muppets than there are Hollywood
actors, and the Muppets tend to have a broader range than your typical
A-list star.
Duffy
Soracia
Gonzo - Dolorous Edd
Animal - Gregor Clegane
Statler or Waldorf - Walder Frey
Kermit - Jon Snow
Zoot - Ser Illyn Payne
Janice - Sansa Stark
Beaker - Beric Dondarrion
Sam the Eagle - Stannis?
Bobo - Sam Tarly
Sweetums - Hodor, HODOR, HODOR!!!!
Aaron J. Dinkin
Oh, and Wallace Shawn for Walder Frey. Hugo Weaving for Ilyn Payne?
CynW514
>> to get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who
>> is also ruthlessly ambitious.
Kidman, yes, but how about Michelle Pfeiffer as another possibility?
>I agree with Nicole Kidman, and also with whoever suggested Vin Diesel for
>Sandor Clegane - I was about to suggest the same thing myself. I'm also a
>big fan of Liam Neeson for Ned Stark.
Vin Diesel, yes! Me, I like David Strathairn for Ned Stark, though Neeson has
got to be in this somewhere, like Johnny Depp (Theon Greyjoy). How about
Robbie Coltrane for the Mountain? Julianne Moore is Melisandre. There's a
young soaps actress named Melissa Archer who is perfect for Sansa Stark.
And Alan Rickman as Littlefinger. Nobody schemes better.
Cynthia Walker (Cyn...@aol.com)
"I have seen the future and it licks itself clean"
--Bucky the cat
Steve Coltrin
> On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:10:54 +0000, Duffy Pratt wrote:
>
>> I'd cast Miss Piggy as Cersei. But I can't figure out if Kermit should be
>> Jaime or Jon.
>>
> No, no, no. Kermit as Tyrion.
Jim Henson as Littlefinger, were he available.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org WWVBF?
"Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product."
- Ferenc Mantfeld
Craig Richardson
>On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:25:56 -0700, Craig Richardson
><crichar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>On 07 Sep 2003 03:37:42 GMT, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:59:41 +0000, David Cowie <see...@lineone.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>On a lighter note, who would you cast in a film of ASOIAF? I can't seem to
>>>>get beyond Nicole Kidman for Cersei - Cersei is a beautiful woman who is
>>>>also ruthlessly ambitious. Kidman is a beautiful woman, and in recent
>>>>photos at least there seems to be something cold and hard-edged about her.
>>>
>>>That's the Botox.
>>
>>I disagree. She's cold and hard-edged. The Botox just makes it seem
>>that she hasn't changed much in the past ten years - it's much more
>>difficult to be iron in your twenties than your thirties.
>
>What about the cellulite?
Checking in at <http://www.mrskin.com>, you should hope to have so
little when you're 36. Or an equivalently good lighting director.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.