Re: computer bootlaces

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:27:08 +0100, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>One of my major, indeed maximal, pet hates was heavily reinforced at
>the time when they interviewed the famous idiot responsible for the
>design. He said it was nothing to do with him, because he'd "only
>designed it". All that stuff about the inseparability of form and
>function we absorbed as gospel might as well never have happened.
>
I probably told this story before (in a.u.e). Back in the early 1960s I
was at Manchester University working on the construction, testing etc.
of the first Atlas Computer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28computer%29

Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
had come to "design the computer". There was much poorly-suppressed
laughter. He had actually come to decide on the visual appearance of the
cabinets. Judging by his finished effort this was not a difficult job.
Here is a picture of it:
http://home.pparc.ac.uk/acl/jpgs/manatlas1.jpg

(The woman standing at the back became my wife.)

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Walter Bushell]

In article <fa4q77hfo8buvmfkj...@4ax.com>,

"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
> design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
> arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
> had come to "design the computer".

Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types
anyhows.

> There was much poorly-suppressed
> laughter. He had actually come to decide on the visual appearance of the
> cabinets. Judging by his finished effort this was not a difficult job.
> Here is a picture of it:

--
Ignorance is no protection against reality. -- Paul J Gans

[Bernd Felsche]

"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>Mike Lyle wrote:

>>One of my major, indeed maximal, pet hates was heavily reinforced at
>>the time when they interviewed the famous idiot responsible for the
>>design. He said it was nothing to do with him, because he'd "only
>>designed it". All that stuff about the inseparability of form and
>>function we absorbed as gospel might as well never have happened.

>I probably told this story before (in a.u.e). Back in the early 1960s I
>was at Manchester University working on the construction, testing etc.
>of the first Atlas Computer:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28computer%29

>Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
>design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
>arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
>had come to "design the computer". There was much poorly-suppressed
>laughter. He had actually come to decide on the visual appearance of the
>cabinets. Judging by his finished effort this was not a difficult job.
>Here is a picture of it:
>http://home.pparc.ac.uk/acl/jpgs/manatlas1.jpg

OMG! What a challenge. And all done without soft furnishings.

>(The woman standing at the back became my wife.)

DANGER! DANGER!

Suit touching control panel. ;-)
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken

[pensive hamster]

On Sep 24, 1:37 am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <fa4q77hfo8buvmfkj7819uopghoo4lr...@4ax.com>,

>  "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
> > Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
> > design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
> > arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
> > had come to "design the computer".
>
> Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types
> anyhows.
>

It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
message.

Not an infallible rule, of course. Can't always judge a book by its
cover.

[Peter Flass]

On 9/23/2011 10:29 PM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>>> One of my major, indeed maximal, pet hates was heavily reinforced at
>>> the time when they interviewed the famous idiot responsible for the
>>> design. He said it was nothing to do with him, because he'd "only
>>> designed it". All that stuff about the inseparability of form and
>>> function we absorbed as gospel might as well never have happened.
>
>> I probably told this story before (in a.u.e). Back in the early 1960s I
>> was at Manchester University working on the construction, testing etc.
>> of the first Atlas Computer:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28computer%29
>
>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
>> design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
>> arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
>> had come to "design the computer". There was much poorly-suppressed
>> laughter. He had actually come to decide on the visual appearance of the
>> cabinets. Judging by his finished effort this was not a difficult job.
>> Here is a picture of it:
>> http://home.pparc.ac.uk/acl/jpgs/manatlas1.jpg
>
> OMG! What a challenge. And all done without soft furnishings.
>
>> (The woman standing at the back became my wife.)
>
> DANGER! DANGER!
>
> Suit touching control panel. ;-)

Back in those days everyone wore suits.

[Mike Barnes]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:

>In article <fa4q77hfo8buvmfkj...@4ax.com>,
> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
>> design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
>> arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
>> had come to "design the computer".
>
>Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types
>anyhows.

Like the type that I heard disparaging a web site because it was
"all content".

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Walter Bushell]

In article <pSDg6i0k...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,

Quite.

And website designers who loath text, because they can't do anything
with it.

And, architects that design beautiful unlivable houses. 'What for you
want cross ventilation or closets, they break up the *lines*.

I've read several commentaries on Frank Lloyd Wright houses and the
people who chose to put up with them. Everything from chairs you can't
sit in, to razors that don't shave to prize winning toilet bowl cleaners
that don't function well. But they *look* great.

[Skitt]

Peter Flass wrote:
> Bernd Felsche wrote:

Especially if they worked for IBM. My buddy was an equipment repairman
for IBM in the Baltimore area, and he always wore a suit and tie. This
was in 1958, or so.

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> writes:
> Especially if they worked for IBM. My buddy was an equipment
> repairman for IBM in the Baltimore area, and he always wore a suit and
> tie. This was in 1958, or so.

I ordered an FE toolkit in the 80s ... came in briefcase (looks like
something a white-color wallstreet professional might carry) itially
order was rejected since I wasn't in field service ... eventually
escalated and they sent me on. I would leave it in my office at work
... and over the course of a couple months nearly half the contents
managed to disappear (lots of the old selectric typewriter tools weren't
touched). I started having to make regular trips to hardware store to
replenish disappearing items.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[Peter Flass]

On 9/24/2011 9:47 AM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article<pSDg6i0k...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
> Mike Barnes<mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>> Walter Bushell<pr...@panix.com>:
>>> In article<fa4q77hfo8buvmfkj...@4ax.com>,
>>> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
>>>> design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
>>>> arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
>>>> had come to "design the computer".
>>>
>>> Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types
>>> anyhows.
>>
>> Like the type that I heard disparaging a web site because it was
>> "all content".
>
> Quite.
>
> And website designers who loath text, because they can't do anything
> with it.

Sometime I'd like to get them all in a room and slap them silly. I have
nothing against "art" or animations when appropriate, but I resent
having them forced on me. Put up all you want, and give me a link to
click if I care.

[Rod Speed]

pensive hamster wrote
> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote

>>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the
>>> circuit design and logic design of the computer. One day we were
>>> introduced to a arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room.
>>> He explained that he had come to "design the computer".

>> Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types anyhows.

> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably
> the rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully
> design the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken
> the trouble to carefully design the functional bits inside.

Nope, thats not the rationale.

The real rationale is that if you have put a lot of human resources
into the engineering and design, you might as well spend a little
more and have it look decent and functional as well.

> The medium is the message.

Nothing like it in fact.

> Not an infallible rule, of course. Can't always judge a book by its cover.

In fact you hardly ever can.

[Joe Morris]

...and if anyone needs the "wallstreet professional" style of toolkit,
Jenson Tools (now Stanley) offers a number of different styles and tool
selections, with the most consistent characteristic being high prices.

http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/search.aspx?f=1%3a348%2c2%3aJensen+Tools

Joe

[erilar]

In article
<0136705b-9a21-4cea...@h34g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
> rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
> the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
> carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
> message.
>
> Not an infallible rule, of course. Can't always judge a book by its
> cover.

Well, the Apple products do tend to live up to their looks 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Howard Brazee]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:13:45 -0700 (PDT), pensive hamster
<pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
>rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
>the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
>carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
>message.

Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also
lacking.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Howard Brazee]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:25:09 -0700, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

>Especially if they worked for IBM. My buddy was an equipment repairman
>for IBM in the Baltimore area, and he always wore a suit and tie. This
>was in 1958, or so.

IBM started the white shirt requirement that previously wasn't that
common. EDS later copied it.

[Mike Barnes]

pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk>:

>On Sep 24, 1:37 am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <fa4q77hfo8buvmfkj7819uopghoo4lr...@4ax.com>,
>>  "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the circuit
>> > design and logic design of the computer. One day we were introduced to a
>> > arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room. He explained that he
>> > had come to "design the computer".
>>
>> Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types
>> anyhows.
>>
>
>It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
>rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
>the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
>carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
>message.
>
>Not an infallible rule, of course. Can't always judge a book by its
>cover.

Agreed, but lucky for Apple, the rest of the industry has placed the bar
extremely low. Especially on the inside.

[Rod Speed]

Mike Barnes wrote
> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote

>>>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the
>>>> circuit design and logic design of the computer. One day we were
>>>> introduced to a arty-looking man who arrived in the computer room.
>>>> He explained that he had come to "design the computer".

>>> Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types anyhows.

>> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
>> rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
>> the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble
>> to carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the message.

>> Not an infallible rule, of course. Can't always judge a book by its cover.

> Agreed, but lucky for Apple, the rest of the industry has placed the
> bar extremely low. Especially on the inside.

Thats not true of the iphone.

Or the Mac either, Apple eventually ended up doing things the way everyone else did.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

That is a suit with brains: Professor Tom Kilburn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Kilburn

The suit next to him is one of the Ferranti family, possibly Basil de
Ferranti managing director and part owner of the Ferranti company which
built the computer in conjunction with Manchester University.

He was one of those people with technical knowledge and skill who wore a
suit because it was customary at the time. He was not an "empty suit".

He was a descendant of Sebastian Ziani de Ferranti:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_de_Ferranti

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 14:03:10 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

This was in the UK in the early 1960s. The use of "suit" to mean a
business excutive (often derogatively) originated in the US. The first
quotation in the OED is approx. 15 years later:

1979 T. Sullivan Glitter St. (1981) vi. 32 McBride was an
exception to the usual 'suits' at the Bureau.

[Mike Lyle]

Among other things, I used to have to explain punctuation to them.
Heck, I even almost got some to stop calling a hyphen a "dash".

--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

That's touching, Peter.

ObCulturalAnthropology, it's another reminder how uptight the men used
to be with respect to hair, compared to women. Our fathers
(generically, not specifically) were really scared of hair, weren't
they? (Trim it back, glue it down with shiny stuff to make it look
like a manly solid car panel rather than girly fluffiness.) But I
suppose those two would have been regarded as rather dashing
non-conformist long-haired intellectuals, with none of yer
short-back-and-sides. At that time, I suppose I was still following my
father's practice -- though I'm pretty sure I never achieved that
extreme white-line parting. Did you take the picture, or were you one
of the subjects?

--
Mike.

[Joe Morris]

"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>>It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
>>rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
>>the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
>>carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
>>message.

> Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
> dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also
> lacking.

...as opposed to the dirty galley wirh "rodent droppings too numerous to
count" that Food and Drug Administration inspectors found earlier this year
on a Delta jet at the airline's Atlanta facility?

Joe

[tony cooper]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 23:46:10 +0100, Mike Lyle
<mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

(On the subject of men's hair)

> At that time, I suppose I was still following my
>father's practice -- though I'm pretty sure I never achieved that
>extreme white-line parting. Did you take the picture, or were you one
>of the subjects?

I achieved that white-line parting. It is currently about a 5" wide
part.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 23:46:10 +0100, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk>

I didn't take the picture. I don't recall being in the room at the time.
It would have been taken by a professional photographer. There was
another occcasion when Basil Ferranti came to visit us before we had the
computer fully complete and working. He had an informal chap with us
during which he compared the experience of coming to see the computer
and us with visiting a racehorse in its stable before a major race.

[CDB]

Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:

Hope you aren't going to correct that, because I like it. Jawing
together like champs. Cheek by jowl. Chinning it with the best.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <rojs779pjiedqml35...@4ax.com>,

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:13:45 -0700 (PDT), pensive hamster
> <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
> >rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
> >the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
> >carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
> >message.
>
> Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
> dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also
> lacking.

I've heard that restaurant "bathrooms" are a good marker for the hygiene
of the restaurant.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <lyMjCZGZ...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,

The other makers have to face a race to the bottom. Apparently people
buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard to
qualify.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:04:40 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>The other makers have to face a race to the bottom. Apparently people
>buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard to
>qualify.

It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

[Rod Speed]

Walter Bushell wrote
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote

>>> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably
>>> the rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully
>>> design the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the
>>> trouble to carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium
>>> is the message.

>> Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
>> dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also lacking.

> I've heard that restaurant "bathrooms" are a good marker for the
> hygiene of the restaurant.

They arent. The detail is very different, particularly with old food in the
fridge and with how the same preparation surfaces are used for food that
should not be on the same surfaces, like cooked and uncooked food.

[Rod Speed]

Walter Bushell wrote
> Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote

>> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote

>>>>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the
>>>>> circuit design and logic design of the computer. One day we were
>>>>> introduced to a arty-looking man who arrived in the computer
>>>>> room. He explained that he had come to "design the computer".

>>>> Well that *is* the important part of the job. It is to arty types anyhows.

>>> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably
>>> the rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully
>>> design the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the
>>> trouble to carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium
>>> is the message.

>>> Not an infallible rule, of course. Can't always judge a book by its cover.

>> Agreed, but lucky for Apple, the rest of the industry has placed the
>> bar extremely low. Especially on the inside.

> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom.

No they dont.

> Apparently people buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard to qualify.

Thats only true of SOME people. And while its certainly hard to
quantify, that does not mean that everyone ignores that aspect
when buying anything, particularly the more expensive stuff.

[Rod Speed]

Howard Brazee wrote

> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom. Apparently people
>> buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard to qualify.

> It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
> an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
> state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

You can however get the details of the seating used by the majors
in the planes they use in their fleet with quite a few of them.

Once you know that that suits you, you can use that airline again etc.

[Leslie Danks]

Lewis wrote:

> In message <j5ogd...@news4.newsguy.com>

> Watching the new TV Series "Pan Am" was very depressing. No genitle
> fondling searches to get on a plane, aisle wide enough for two people to
> move by each other, there was even space for a kid to sit on the floor
> and draw on a little table.
>
> Amazing, people didn't used to be treated like criminal cattle when they
> wanted to fly somewhere.
>
Because in those days the only people who could afford to fly anywhere
wouldn't stand for it.

--
Les
(BrE)

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <m3fwjlg...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com

(Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:

> I ordered an FE toolkit in the 80s ... came in briefcase (looks like
> something a white-color wallstreet professional might carry) itially
> order was rejected since I wasn't in field service ... eventually
> escalated and they sent me on. I would leave it in my office at work
> ... and over the course of a couple months nearly half the contents
> managed to disappear (lots of the old selectric typewriter tools
> weren't touched). I started having to make regular trips to hardware
> store to replenish disappearing items.

You weren't hiding it well enough. In my first job I quickly learned
that even pencils weren't safe.

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> writes:

> Lewis wrote:
>> Watching the new TV Series "Pan Am" was very depressing. No genitle
>> fondling searches to get on a plane, aisle wide enough for two
>> people to move by each other, there was even space for a kid to sit
>> on the floor and draw on a little table.
>>
>> Amazing, people didn't used to be treated like criminal cattle when
>> they wanted to fly somewhere.
>>
> Because in those days the only people who could afford to fly
> anywhere wouldn't stand for it.

Yup. I just looked back in the _New York Times_ archives to see if I
could find out what fares were like in 1960, and I saw that TWA was
starting up service from New York to Kansas City. First class tickets
were $144, which works out to $1,102 in today's money. Plus surcharge
($10) and federal tax (10%) which added $24 ($187 today) for a total
of $1,289 in today's money. But that's round trip. Coach was
cheaper: $58.50 each way, plus $5 each way and 10% federal tax, for a
total of $117+$22 = $139. Or, in 2011 terms, $895+$128 = $1,023.

By contrast, if I were to fly next month, I could do that trip coach
(including taxes but not baggage fees) for $277 and first class for
$750. (And that's without even flying at ludicrous times.)

By 1965, I'm seeing travel service ads for heavily discounted fares
allowing you to travel from New York to Los Angeles for about $104
round trip (plus tax), which is "only" $750 today. Kayak finds me
that route for $298 plus tax (total $319).

Air travel may not be as comfortable as it used to be, but it's *way*
cheaper.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |"Revolution" has many definitions.
SF Bay Area (1982-) |From the looks of this, I'd say
Chicago (1964-1982) |"going around in circles" comes
|closest to applying...
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Richard M. Hartman

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Patrick Scheible]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> writes:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:04:40 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
>>The other makers have to face a race to the bottom. Apparently people
>>buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard to
>>qualify.
>
> It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
> an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
> state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

Partly because airlines may substitute aircraft at any time.

-- Patrick

[R H Draney]

Charlie Gibbs filted:

>
>In article <m3fwjlg...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
>(Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>
>> I ordered an FE toolkit in the 80s ... came in briefcase (looks like
>> something a white-color wallstreet professional might carry) itially
>> order was rejected since I wasn't in field service ... eventually
>> escalated and they sent me on. I would leave it in my office at work
>> ... and over the course of a couple months nearly half the contents
>> managed to disappear (lots of the old selectric typewriter tools
>> weren't touched). I started having to make regular trips to hardware
>> store to replenish disappearing items.
>
>You weren't hiding it well enough. In my first job I quickly learned
>that even pencils weren't safe.

Depends where you get them...I stocked my desk with pencils bearing pictures of
Sonic the Hedgehog...nobody ever "absent-mindedly walked off" with one, and if
they had, it'd be hard to claim they thought it was theirs....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Rod Speed]

Patrick Scheible wrote
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom. Apparently
>>> people buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability
>>> are hard to qualify.

>> It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
>> an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
>> state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

> Partly because airlines may substitute aircraft at any time.

But they usually have the same seating arrangement as the original.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <9ebrsi...@mid.individual.net>,

The airline reserves the right to change the equipment without notice
even up to boarding time. Hell, after boarding time if the plane is
found defective and unloaded, you count yourself lucky if you get on the
replacement aircraft.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <slrnj81d75....@krismbp.local>,

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> Watching the new TV Series "Pan Am" was very depressing. No genitle
> fondling searches to get on a plane, aisle wide enough for two people to
> move by each other, there was even space for a kid to sit on the floor
> and draw on a little table.
>
> Amazing, people didn't used to be treated like criminal cattle when they
> wanted to fly somewhere.
>

If you want to be comfortable in the plane, go business or first class.
The fondling is free, if male just take Viagra at the appropriate time
before getting in line. :)(

[Rod Speed]

Walter Bushell wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Howard Brazee wrote
>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom.
>>>> Apparently people buy on specs and things like fit
>>>> and finish and durability are hard to qualify.

>>> It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
>>> an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
>>> state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

>> You can however get the details of the seating used by the majors
>> in the planes they use in their fleet with quite a few of them.

>> Once you know that that suits you, you can use that airline again etc.

> The airline reserves the right to change the equipment without notice
> even up to boarding time.

Yes, but thats normally with another copy of the same plane with the
same seating arrangement so that doesnt necessarily change anything.

And you can always keep track of what planes they have in their fleet
and just refuse to fly on one that doesnt have the seating you require.

> Hell, after boarding time if the plane is found defective and unloaded,
> you count yourself lucky if you get on the replacement aircraft.

See above.

[Patrick Scheible]

In the other hand, my mom saved the tickets from my first flight, in
1972. Oakland to Burbank for $12.50, child's half-price ticket, on
Pacific Southwest Airlines. Inflation Calculator says that's $67.75
today. Expedia is saying the cheapest flights are about $370 today for
adults, and forget about half-price children's fares.

-- Patrick

[Morten Reistad]

In article <9ebrdb...@mid.individual.net>,

Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Walter Bushell wrote
>> Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote
>>> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
>>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>

>>> Agreed, but lucky for Apple, the rest of the industry has placed the
>>> bar extremely low. Especially on the inside.
>
>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom.
>
>No they dont.

Stupid assertions without foundation again. What do they have as
selling points then, so they can avoid the price spiral of death?

Every vendor must either have some unique features in the product
or service that they can charge for, or be able to out-produce all
the others on cheap volume. Remember K-mart? Well, they had no
unique features, and Walmart outproduced them. Because without
the features, it is a race to the bottom. Such races have only
one surviver, if that. In the US passenger rail industry there
were none; the state had top mop up the remains from the floor.

In the PC business I would place a bet on the Taiwan/China brands
like asus, acer, tci etc when it comes to outproduction. So,
IBM/Lenovo, HP/whoever, Dell etc must either match the Chinese,
(republic or mainland) .. or find somewhere to make yourself endeared
to your customers.

IBM ? They have their captive suits used to high prices for high
quality. Nice niche if you can get there, but that is what it is.
A niche.

HP? Dell? They have been aggressively pushing their cart downhill.

And they all run the same software. There isn't even a little
opening for doing something out of the standard Microsoft box.
Not even a "stand by your drivers", and bet on customers wanting
support for the next version of the OS.

I have shown that guaranteeing a buyback at depreciated cost
can even be profitable.

>> Apparently people buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard to qualify.
>
>Thats only true of SOME people. And while its certainly hard to
>quantify, that does not mean that everyone ignores that aspect
>when buying anything, particularly the more expensive stuff.

I commented a year ago or so about seeing a new PC display in
a large outlet. The stylishness difference between Apple and the
others was dramatic. Like the difference between a 5th avenue
or Champs Elysses fashion store and a Walmart. But when you
ignored Apple, there was a very clear difference between
ASUS and the rest. ASUS at least tried to keep in style, tried
to have good design, not festered with small stickers like
a porn site, clean monter with good selling points, and
statements about support.

HP and Dell have their work cut out for them.

-- mrr

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Right. PSA was a weird case. Since it operated entirely within the
state of California, it wasn't subject to federal fare regulation and
could drastically undercut other airlines. But it's not all that much
cheaper than today. Unless I'm mistaken, a PSA ticket would have been
one-way. The corresponding cheapest (adult) fare on Southwest today
is $89 each way. A bit more, but not tremendously so. And that's not
counting the fact that if you buy ten of these, you get one free.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The whole idea of our government is
SF Bay Area (1982-) |this: if enough people get together
Chicago (1964-1982) |and act in concert, they can take
|something and not pay for it.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | P.J. O'Rourke

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <fia1879ndbnrnopoh...@4ax.com>,

how...@brazee.net (Howard Brazee) writes:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:04:40 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom. Apparently people
>> buy on specs and things like fit and finish and durability are hard
>> to qualify.
>
> It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
> an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
> state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

We can't order concert tickets online if a particularly tall friend
comes with us, since he wants an aisle seat and there's no way to
specify that. Fortunately, the computer interface provided to real
live ticket agents is more flexible.

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <j5qku...@drn.newsguy.com>, dado...@spamcop.net

Good point. Even now, I make sure I always have at least one pen that
is sufficiently ugly that nobody will steal it.

[Rod Speed]

Morten Reistad wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Walter Bushell wrote
>>> Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote
>>>> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
>>>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>>> Agreed, but lucky for Apple, the rest of the industry has
>>>> placed the bar extremely low. Especially on the inside.

>>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom.

>> No they dont.

> Stupid assertions without foundation again.

We'll see...

> What do they have as selling points then, so they can avoid the price spiral of death?

They do the job a lot better than the cheapest crap does.

> Every vendor must either have some unique features
> in the product or service that they can charge for, or
> be able to out-produce all the others on cheap volume.

Try telling that to Nokia. Dont be TOO surprised when they just laugh in your face.

> Remember K-mart? Well, they had no unique features, and Walmart
> outproduced them. Because without the features, it is a race to the
> bottom. Such races have only one surviver, if that.

Try telling that to Nokia. Dont be TOO surprised when they just laugh in your face.

There is never just one survivor.

> In the US passenger rail industry there were none;
> the state had top mop up the remains from the floor.

And that hasnt happened with the airlines, or the car industry,
or the OS market, or with what you call gadgets, etc etc etc.

> In the PC business I would place a bet on the Taiwan/China
> brands like asus, acer, tci etc when it comes to outproduction.

Hasnt happened with software, or games consoles either.

> So, IBM/Lenovo, HP/whoever, Dell etc must either match
> the Chinese, (republic or mainland) .. or find somewhere
> to make yourself endeared to your customers.

Or just not bother with that particular market and
concentrate on other stuff like HP and IBM has done.

> IBM ? They have their captive suits used to high prices for high
> quality. Nice niche if you can get there, but that is what it is.
> A niche.

You can claim everything is a niche.

> HP? Dell? They have been aggressively pushing their cart downhill.

But Nokia hasnt.

> And they all run the same software. There isn't even a little
> opening for doing something out of the standard Microsoft box.

Thats just plain wrong, most obviously with the ipad.

> Not even a "stand by your drivers", and bet on customers
> wanting support for the next version of the OS.

Some do that.

> I have shown that guaranteeing a buyback
> at depreciated cost can even be profitable.

No you have not with the mass market being discussed.

>>> Apparently people buy on specs and things like
>>> fit and finish and durability are hard to qualify.

>> Thats only true of SOME people. And while its certainly hard to
>> quantify, that does not mean that everyone ignores that aspect
>> when buying anything, particularly the more expensive stuff.

> I commented a year ago or so about seeing a new PC display
> in a large outlet. The stylishness difference between Apple and
> the others was dramatic. Like the difference between a 5th
> avenue or Champs Elysses fashion store and a Walmart.

Thats often the case when someone gets a jump on the
market like Apple has just done, but it never lasts for long.

> But when you ignored Apple, there was a very
> clear difference between ASUS and the rest.

No there was not with laptops.

> ASUS at least tried to keep in style, tried to have
> good design, not festered with small stickers like
> a porn site, clean monter with good selling points,
> and statements about support.

They arent anything special with any of those.

> HP and Dell have their work cut out for them.

Nope, HP has decided that there isnt enough money in that market to bother with.

IBM did that a long time before that.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 16:17:19 -0400, Walter Bushell
<pr...@panix.com> wrote in
<news:proto-CDDECF....@news.panix.com> in
alt.usage.english,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> The airline reserves the right to change the equipment
> without notice even up to boarding time. Hell, after
> boarding time if the plane is found defective and
> unloaded, you count yourself lucky if you get on the
> replacement aircraft.

I've even been in the situation of having a perfectly good
aircraft replaced by a slightly defective one, because the
good one was needed on another route, and the defect in the
cabin pressurization on the other plane wouldn't be a
problem on my route.

Brian

[tony cooper]

How in the world would you know that?

I can't imagine "This is your Captain speaking. We apologize for the
delay while we switched planes. This aircraft is basically sound, but
the cabin pressurization system has been a bit wonky lately. We're
going to tree-top it for most of the flight just to be safe."



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Joe Morris]

"Evan Kirshenbaum" <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> writes:
>> Lewis wrote:

>>> Watching the new TV Series "Pan Am" was very depressing. No genitle
>>> fondling searches to get on a plane, aisle wide enough for two
>>> people to move by each other, there was even space for a kid to sit
>>> on the floor and draw on a little table.

>>> Amazing, people didn't used to be treated like criminal cattle when
>>> they wanted to fly somewhere.

>> Because in those days the only people who could afford to fly
>> anywhere wouldn't stand for it.

> Yup. I just looked back in the _New York Times_ archives to see if I
> could find out what fares were like in 1960, and I saw that TWA was
> starting up service from New York to Kansas City. First class tickets
> were $144, which works out to $1,102 in today's money. Plus surcharge
> ($10) and federal tax (10%) which added $24 ($187 today) for a total
> of $1,289 in today's money. But that's round trip. Coach was
> cheaper: $58.50 each way, plus $5 each way and 10% federal tax, for a
> total of $117+$22 = $139. Or, in 2011 terms, $895+$128 = $1,023.

What's probably missing from the archives you found was that there was a
weight limit of 40 pounds (total, not per piece) for all checked baggage on
domestic flights; I have no recollection of the per-pound charge for
overweight baggage although I do remember going over it a few times.

Joe

[R H Draney]

tony cooper filted:

>
>I can't imagine "This is your Captain speaking. We apologize for the
>delay while we switched planes. This aircraft is basically sound, but
>the cabin pressurization system has been a bit wonky lately. We're
>going to tree-top it for most of the flight just to be safe."

When Denver's Stapleton airport was brand-spanking-new, it was so far from any
commercially interesting part of the city that planes were said to land in
Cheyenne and then taxi to Denver....r

[Peter Moylan]

Back in those days, though, there wasn't a surcharge for checked
baggage. You didn't have to pay for the meals, either.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Robert Carnegie]

My guess: At a smaller airport, you can look out of the window and
count the few planes on the ground. And you can observe that the
plane that other disappointed passengers are being ejected from is the
one that you're then boarded onto. Although you probably hope that
there was time for it to get fixed up a bit first. Also, if the
oxygen masks are down, or are dropped down for you before take-off.
Although possibly that - the take-off - wouldn't happen then.

[Adam Funk]

On 2011-09-24, Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:13:45 -0700 (PDT), pensive hamster

><pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
>>rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
>>the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble to
>>carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
>>message.
>
> Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
> dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also
> lacking.

I'd be concerned if I saw a dirty ashtray in an airplane these days.

(They must replace armrests a lot more often than toilet/lavatory
doors; most of the latter still seem to have ashtrays in them,
although they've put no-smoking stickers on them.)


--
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
[Ambrose Bierce]

[Howard Brazee]

On 26 Sep 2011 18:57:49 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
wrote:

>When Denver's Stapleton airport was brand-spanking-new, it was so far from any
>commercially interesting part of the city that planes were said to land in
>Cheyenne and then taxi to Denver....r

Which is funny since by today's standards it was close to downtown.
Although it now is a shopping center, with DIA moved out to the
country.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Walter Bushell]

In article <9ec7gr...@mid.individual.net>,

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but thats normally with another copy of the same plane with the
> same seating arrangement so that doesnt necessarily change anything.
>
> And you can always keep track of what planes they have in their fleet
> and just refuse to fly on one that doesnt have the seating you require.

If you can get a ticket that allows changing without huge penalty. I
think perhaps that may apply to people paying full fare and may apply to
business travelers who are traveling on short lead times. (IIUC, most
corporation don't allow full fare if they can schedule sufficiently in
advance.) Of course, the top execs travel private. If you're not hoi
polli you travel private these days.

[Rod Speed]

Robert Carnegie wrote
> tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote

>> Brian M. Scott <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote

>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>>> The airline reserves the right to change the equipment
>>>> without notice even up to boarding time. Hell, after boarding
>>>> time if the plane is found defective and unloaded, you count
>>>> yourself lucky if you get on the replacement aircraft.

>>> I've even been in the situation of having a perfectly good
>>> aircraft replaced by a slightly defective one, because the
>>> good one was needed on another route, and the defect in
>>> the cabin pressurization on the other plane wouldn't be a
>>> problem on my route.

>> How in the world would you know that?

>> I can't imagine "This is your Captain speaking. We apologize for the
>> delay while we switched planes. This aircraft is basically sound, but
>> the cabin pressurization system has been a bit wonky lately. We're
>> going to tree-top it for most of the flight just to be safe."

> My guess: At a smaller airport, you can look out of the window and
> count the few planes on the ground. And you can observe that the
> plane that other disappointed passengers are being ejected from is
> the one that you're then boarded onto.

That doesnt explain how he knew the detail of why the plane was reused
for a different load of passengers.

> Although you probably hope that there was time for it to get fixed up a bit first.

Yeah, doesnt eliminate the possibility that it really was completely fixed
and that it just took some time for the part to show up and thats why the
passengers were moved, and the part showed up earlier than expected etc.

> Also, if the oxygen masks are down, or are dropped down for you before
> take-off. Although possibly that - the take-off - wouldn't happen then.

Not just possibly, absolutely certainly.

And the masks wont drop in that situation anyway if the plane just cant
be pressurised, the system cant work that out before the takeoff.

[Patrick Scheible]

Stapleton, or Denver International?

-- Patrick

[Patrick Scheible]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:

> In message <j5qku...@drn.newsguy.com>

> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

> We stopped our boys from decorating themselves with band-aids by only
> buying ones with Disney Princesses and My Little Pony on them. They have
> to be gushing blood to use a band-aid now, so perhaps we went a little
> too far the other way?
>
> :)

That's a good idea. We should have done the reverse for our daughter
who kept wanting band-aids for minor abrasions that weren't bleeding.
Maybe if they had monster trucks or something she wouldn't have wanted
so many.

-- Patrick

[Rod Speed]

Walter Bushell wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Walter Bushell wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Howard Brazee wrote
>>>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>>>>>> The other makers have to face a race to the bottom.
>>>>>> Apparently people buy on specs and things like fit
>>>>>> and finish and durability are hard to qualify.

>>>>> It's hard to get all of the details. We can't go on-line and order
>>>>> an airline ticket where you give your leg length or buttock width and
>>>>> state how much you value an extra inch over your leg's minimum.

>>>> You can however get the details of the seating used by the majors
>>>> in the planes they use in their fleet with quite a few of them.

>>>> Once you know that that suits you, you can use that airline again etc.

>>> The airline reserves the right to change the equipment without notice
>>> even up to boarding time.

>> Yes, but thats normally with another copy of the same plane with the
>> same seating arrangement so that doesnt necessarily change anything.

>> And you can always keep track of what planes they have in their fleet
>> and just refuse to fly on one that doesnt have the seating you require.

> If you can get a ticket that allows changing without huge penalty.

Yes, plenty get tickets that allow changing with only minor penaltys in that particular situation.

> I think perhaps that may apply to people paying full fare

And not just full fares either.

> and may apply to business travelers who are traveling on short lead times.

Yes it does.

> (IIUC, most corporation don't allow full fare if they can schedule
> sufficiently in advance.)

I dont believe that most claim.

> Of course, the top execs travel private.

Some do, some dont.

> If you're not hoi polli you travel private these days.

Fraid not.

[Rod Speed]

Morten Reistad wrote
> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote

>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> Yes, but thats normally with another copy of the same plane with the
>>> same seating arrangement so that doesnt necessarily change anything.

>>> And you can always keep track of what planes they have in their fleet
>>> and just refuse to fly on one that doesnt have the seating you require.

>> If you can get a ticket that allows changing without huge penalty.
>> I think perhaps that may apply to people paying full fare and may
>> apply to business travelers who are traveling on short lead times.
>> (IIUC, most corporation don't allow full fare if they can schedule
>> sufficiently in advance.) Of course, the top execs travel private.
>> If you're not hoi polli you travel private these days.

> I order lots of tickets on the sales for airlines, and realise that I
> have to throw a few of them away and pay for a more expensive
> ticket. But the price difference is so large it pays to do it this way.

> Regarding tracking actual planes : Good luck. Airlines run a
> pretty hand to mouth rescheduling of the actual planes, and they
> all do this all the time. If they have overbooking on one leg
> they probably will switch in a 737-800 therre, and let the old
> 737-300 run the one with fewer bookings. And this ripples through
> the system.

They dont necessarily have different seating systems tho. Its
much more likely that they use the same seats in all their 737s.

And even when they dont, they usually only have a couple of
seating arrangements over their entire 737 fleet and when
there is more than one, the airline has usually chosen the
same cramped or a bit more relaxed config for both of them.

The mostyou have to do is keep track of which of the fleet
has the seating spacings that you can live with and choose
not to fly in the ones that dont meet your requirement. The
planes are mostly labelled adequately so you can know
which of the couple of plans a particular one you are
supposed to board has with a bit of research.

[Skitt]

Rod Speed wrote:
> Walter Bushell wrote

>> (IIUC, most corporation don't allow full fare if they can schedule
>> sufficiently in advance.)
>
> I dont believe that most claim.
>
>> Of course, the top execs travel private.
>
> Some do, some dont.
>
>> If you're not hoi polli you travel private these days.
>
> Fraid not.

Back in the early-seventies, when I worked for Information Storage
Systems (now defunct), ISS personnel flew exclusively in First Class. I
got to take only one round trip, though (to Univac headquarters in Blue
Bell, PA).

The Univac secretaries, doing double duty as company-sponsored
entertainers, did not know exactly how important my travel companion and
I were, so we were invited to join them in the after-work-goings-on at
the Broad Axe Inn. Unfortunately, they eventually caught on to the fact
that we were not dignitaries, so we did not get invited to explore the
upstairs of the place, if you know what I mean. Too bad.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Skitt]

Denver was where I had to suffer the longest delay for "technical
difficulties with the aircraft". They were repairing it, and they had
to take it out twice to the outlying parts of the airport for some sort
of tests before putting it back into service. That took a while ...

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:23:43 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> Which is funny since by today's standards it was close to downtown.
>> Although it now is a shopping center, with DIA moved out to the
>> country.
>

>The majority of Stapleton is actually new housing (as is the former
>Lowery Air Force Base). There are commercial areas, but there is nothing
>I would consider a "shopping center."
>
>There is Northfield which was, as the name suggest, the north part of
>the airport (north of I-70, which bifurcated Stapleton by going under
>the two main runways) which has a reasonably sized shopping area and is
>only now starting to have residences built around it. The build out of
>housing was slowed by the greed and fraud of the Mortgage industry and
>the subsequent financial depression, but it's still happening, albeit a
>little more slowly.

I exaggerated - airports are too large to be turned into just a
shopping center. Some of it is Northfield (which I would call "a
shopping center"), some of it is other, smaller shopping centers, and
lots is houses. The runways that went over I-70 just went away.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 10:06:53 -0400, "CDB" <belle...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>>> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> One of my major, indeed maximal, pet hates was heavily
>>>>> reinforced at the time when they interviewed the famous idiot
>>>>> responsible for the design. He said it was nothing to do with
>>>>> him, because he'd "only designed it". All that stuff about the
>>>>> inseparability of form and function we absorbed as gospel might
>>>>> as well never have happened.
>>>>>
>>>> I probably told this story before (in a.u.e). Back in the early
>>>> 1960s I was at Manchester University working on the construction,
>>>> testing etc. of the first Atlas Computer:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28computer%29
>>>>
>>>> Engineers and other experts had been working for years on the
>>>> circuit design and logic design of the computer. One day we were
>>>> introduced to a arty-looking man who arrived in the computer
>>>> room. He explained that he had come to "design the computer".
>>>> There was much poorly-suppressed laughter. He had actually come
>>>> to decide on the visual appearance of the cabinets. Judging by
>>>> his finished effort this was not a difficult job. Here is a
>>>> picture of it:
>>>> http://home.pparc.ac.uk/acl/jpgs/manatlas1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> (The woman standing at the back became my wife.)
>>>
>>> That's touching, Peter.
>>>
>>> ObCulturalAnthropology, it's another reminder how uptight the men
>>> used to be with respect to hair, compared to women. Our fathers
>>> (generically, not specifically) were really scared of hair, weren't
>>> they? (Trim it back, glue it down with shiny stuff to make it look
>>> like a manly solid car panel rather than girly fluffiness.) But I
>>> suppose those two would have been regarded as rather dashing
>>> non-conformist long-haired intellectuals, with none of yer
>>> short-back-and-sides. At that time, I suppose I was still
>>> following my father's practice -- though I'm pretty sure I never
>>> achieved that extreme white-line parting. Did you take the
>>> picture, or were you one of the subjects?
>>
>> I didn't take the picture. I don't recall being in the room at the
>> time. It would have been taken by a professional photographer.
>> There was another occcasion when Basil Ferranti came to visit us
>> before we had the computer fully complete and working. He had an
>> informal chap with us during which he compared the experience of
>> coming to see the computer and us with visiting a racehorse in its
>> stable before a major race.
>>>
>Hope you aren't going to correct that, because I like it. Jawing
>together like champs. Cheek by jowl. Chinning it with the best.
>
OK. I won't correct that! But I am having second thoughts about whether
I was in the room at the time.

There was one occasion when an official photograph was being taken and
those of us who were working in the room, maybe 12 to 15 of us, had to
sit on a row of chairs against the wall behind the camera. I sat down
and then made the gentlemanly gesture of offering my chair to a young
female co-worker. She declined the offer and suggested she should sit on
my knee instead. I agreed this arrangement. That was the closest I ever
got to the lovely Bajan lady Goldeen Boyce.

Some things stick in the memory.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Joe Morris]

"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Denver was where I had to suffer the longest delay for "technical
> difficulties with the aircraft". They were repairing it, and they had to
> take it out twice to the outlying parts of the airport for some sort of
> tests before putting it back into service. That took a while ...

Well...if the problem was with the engines and there was a need to test them
at high output, you really don't want that done when the bird is close to
(a) the terminal, (b) other aircraft, or (c) ground lice. Especially the
latter; the unions would be rather upset if one of the lice were blown over
while one of their members was driving it.

And it doesn't take much power, or a big engine, to cause trouble. Many
years ago I was parked at a gate (as directed by ground control) at
Birmingham's airport and a DC9, pulling away from a nearby gate, definitely
bounced me around a bit as he gunned the engine to start moving.

Joe

[Joe Morris]

"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>>When Denver's Stapleton airport was brand-spanking-new, it was so far from
>>any
>>commercially interesting part of the city that planes were said to land in
>>Cheyenne and then taxi to Denver....r

> Which is funny since by today's standards it was close to downtown.
> Although it now is a shopping center, with DIA moved out to the
> country.

One of the political reasons for Dulles International Airport was that until
it opened, for people in Washington the closest airport capable of handling
jets was Baltimore Friendship (BAL, later Baltimore-Washington Airport
(BWI), and now "Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall
Airport"). Washington DC didn't like the idea of having to go all the way
to Baltimore to catch a jet (IIRC, 32 miles from the K street terminal) so
Dulles was built in what was then the far exurbs of Virginia...about a mile
closer to downtown DC.

Joe

[Andrew Swallow]

On 27/09/2011 05:45, Lewis wrote:
> In message<j5qku...@drn.newsguy.com>

> R H Draney<dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>> Charlie Gibbs filted:
>>>
>>> In article<m3fwjlg...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com

>>> (Anne& Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>>>
>>>> I ordered an FE toolkit in the 80s ... came in briefcase (looks like
>>>> something a white-color wallstreet professional might carry) itially
>>>> order was rejected since I wasn't in field service ... eventually
>>>> escalated and they sent me on. I would leave it in my office at work
>>>> ... and over the course of a couple months nearly half the contents
>>>> managed to disappear (lots of the old selectric typewriter tools
>>>> weren't touched). I started having to make regular trips to hardware
>>>> store to replenish disappearing items.
>>>
>>> You weren't hiding it well enough. In my first job I quickly learned
>>> that even pencils weren't safe.
>
>> Depends where you get them...I stocked my desk with pencils bearing pictures of
>> Sonic the Hedgehog...nobody ever "absent-mindedly walked off" with one, and if
>> they had, it'd be hard to claim they thought it was theirs....r
>
> We stopped our boys from decorating themselves with band-aids by only
> buying ones with Disney Princesses and My Little Pony on them. They have
> to be gushing blood to use a band-aid now, so perhaps we went a little
> too far the other way?
>
> :)
>
>

A picture of his mother may also work.

Andrew Swallow

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:39:11 -0400, "Joe Morris"
<j.c.m...@verizon.net> wrote:

>One of the political reasons for Dulles International Airport was that until
>it opened, for people in Washington the closest airport capable of handling
>jets was Baltimore Friendship (BAL, later Baltimore-Washington Airport
>(BWI), and now "Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall
>Airport"). Washington DC didn't like the idea of having to go all the way
>to Baltimore to catch a jet (IIRC, 32 miles from the K street terminal) so
>Dulles was built in what was then the far exurbs of Virginia...about a mile
>closer to downtown DC.

The movie _Die Hard 2_ had a plot that depended upon Washington DC
only having 1 airport. I couldn't figure out why they picked a city
with 3 international airports for that plot.

[Bernd Felsche]

The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
between airports.

Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 20:45:43 -0400, tony cooper
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in
<news:cl6287hvaci90badu...@4ax.com> in
alt.usage.english,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:54:09 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 16:17:19 -0400, Walter Bushell
>><pr...@panix.com> wrote in
>><news:proto-CDDECF....@news.panix.com> in
>>alt.usage.english,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.written:

>>[...]

>>> The airline reserves the right to change the equipment

>>> without notice even up to boarding time. Hell, after
>>> boarding time if the plane is found defective and
>>> unloaded, you count yourself lucky if you get on the
>>> replacement aircraft.

>> I've even been in the situation of having a perfectly
>> good aircraft replaced by a slightly defective one,
>> because the good one was needed on another route, and
>> the defect in the cabin pressurization on the other
>> plane wouldn't be a problem on my route.

> How in the world would you know that?

Believe it or not, someone with official standing told us.
(It was a PSA flight from LA to SF many years ago.)

[...]

Brian

[R H Draney]

Bernd Felsche filted:

>
>The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
>of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
>scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
>between airports.
>
>Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
>increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
>wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!

Ditto for me, but make it four hours, Newark to Phoenix, 1988....r

[Skitt]

Bernd Felsche wrote:

> Skitt wrote:
>> R H Draney wrote:
>>> tony cooper filted:

>>>> I can't imagine "This is your Captain speaking. We apologize
>>>> for the delay while we switched planes. This aircraft is
>>>> basically sound, but the cabin pressurization system has been a
>>>> bit wonky lately. We're going to tree-top it for most of the
>>>> flight just to be safe."
>
>>> When Denver's Stapleton airport was brand-spanking-new, it was so
>>> far from any commercially interesting part of the city that
>>> planes were said to land in Cheyenne and then taxi to Denver....r
>
>> Denver was where I had to suffer the longest delay for "technical
>> difficulties with the aircraft". They were repairing it, and they had
>> to take it out twice to the outlying parts of the airport for some sort
>> of tests before putting it back into service. That took a while ...
>
> The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
> of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
> scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
> between airports.
>
> Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
> increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
> wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!

They didn't want to crush your hopes all at once.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sep 28, 6:03 pm, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Bernd Felsche wrote:
> > The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
> > of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
> > scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
> > between airports.
>
> > Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
> > increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
> > wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!
>
> They didn't want to crush your hopes all at once.

No, it's a pleasure to savour.

[Patrick Scheible]

Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> writes:

> Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>R H Draney wrote:
>>> tony cooper filted:
>
>>>> I can't imagine "This is your Captain speaking. We apologize
>>>> for the delay while we switched planes. This aircraft is
>>>> basically sound, but the cabin pressurization system has been a
>>>> bit wonky lately. We're going to tree-top it for most of the
>>>> flight just to be safe."
>
>>> When Denver's Stapleton airport was brand-spanking-new, it was so
>>> far from any commercially interesting part of the city that
>>> planes were said to land in Cheyenne and then taxi to Denver....r
>
>>Denver was where I had to suffer the longest delay for "technical
>>difficulties with the aircraft". They were repairing it, and they had
>>to take it out twice to the outlying parts of the airport for some sort
>>of tests before putting it back into service. That took a while ...
>
> The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
> of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
> scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
> between airports.
>
> Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
> increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
> wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!

That's too bad. The least they could do is let you know it's safe to
leave the airport for a couple of hours and get a meal someplace that
serves decent food.

-- Patrick

[David Hatunen]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:44:32 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

> Air travel may not be as comfortable as it used to be, but it's *way*
> cheaper.

Back in the 1950s a lot of young people wanted to see Europe on $5 per
day and they went by sea, air travel being inordinately expensive. The
least expensive flights were on Icelandic, because Icelandic was not a
member of the fare-setting cartel, IATA. Their fare for New York to
Amstedam (I think it was) was US $300. This was on a prop plane which
departed New York for Goose Bay, Labrador, (where almost all prop planes
had to refuel; Goose Bay was once one of the busiest airports in the
world) and the trip continued to Reykavik, Shannon (Ireland), and then
Amsterdam. In today's dollars that $300 would be $2236. Only students
with indulgent parents flew, even on Icelandic. I have no recollection of
what the IATA fare would have been.

I never go to go despite having once made plans for the trip, and I
understand the second class deck of an ocean liner was a week long party.

--
Dave Hatunen: Free Baja Arizona

[David Hatunen]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 03:31:22 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

> Walter Bushell wrote

>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote
>>> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
>
>>>> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably the
>>>> rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully design
>>>> the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken the trouble
>>>> to carefully design the functional bits inside. The medium is the
>>>> message.
>
>>> Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
>>> dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also
>>> lacking.
>
>> I've heard that restaurant "bathrooms" are a good marker for the
>> hygiene of the restaurant.
>
> They arent. The detail is very different, particularly with old food in
> the fridge and with how the same preparation surfaces are used for food
> that should not be on the same surfaces, like cooked and uncooked food.

Anyone a fan of Kitchen Nightmares on television? Gordon Ramsey comes
across some pretty icky kitchens and pantries.

[Skitt]

We stopped in Goose Bay on my two trips from McGuire AFB to Thule,
Greenland, but that was on military aircraft.

[David Hatunen]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:52:43 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:25:09 -0700, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Especially if they worked for IBM. My buddy was an equipment repairman
>>for IBM in the Baltimore area, and he always wore a suit and tie. This
>>was in 1958, or so.
>
>
> IBM started the white shirt requirement that previously wasn't that
> common. EDS later copied it.

I got my first real job (with GMC) in 1955. Up through the 1950s and into
the 1960s a coat and tie was standard dress for anyone not employed in
some way as a manual laborer, whether skilled or unskilled (although in
some skilled occupations ties were worn. I seem to recall that our tool
and die makers wore ties, but our machinists didn't). In 1958 I got a job
with Dictaphone Corporation as a field service technician, performing
maintenance on the large numbers of Dictaphones in use by businesses all
over the Youngstown, Ohio, metro area. White shirt, coat and tie were
required dress.

As far as I could tell this was the dress code for many, many years
before, clear back into the late 19th century.

(Indeed, the dress code required the wearing of a hat up into the 1950s.)

[David Hatunen]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:04:10 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

> The mostyou have to do is keep track of which of the fleet has the
> seating spacings that you can live with and choose not to fly in the
> ones that dont meet your requirement. The planes are mostly labelled
> adequately so you can know which of the couple of plans a particular one
> you are supposed to board has with a bit of research.

http://www.seatguru.com/ might be of help...

[David Hatunen]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:17:24 +0200, Morten Reistad wrote:

> In article <9ebrdb...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
> <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the PC business I would place a bet on the Taiwan/China brands like
> asus, acer, tci etc when it comes to outproduction. So, IBM/Lenovo,
> HP/whoever, Dell etc must either match the Chinese, (republic or
> mainland) .. or find somewhere to make yourself endeared to your
> customers.

Um. Lenovo acquired the IBM PC in 2005; Lenovo *is* Chinese.
>
> IBM ? They have their captive suits used to high prices for high
> quality. Nice niche if you can get there, but that is what it is. A
> niche.


IBM doesn't sell PCs.

> I commented a year ago or so about seeing a new PC display in a large
> outlet. The stylishness difference between Apple and the others was
> dramatic. Like the difference between a 5th avenue or Champs Elysses
> fashion store and a Walmart. But when you ignored Apple, there was a
> very clear difference between ASUS and the rest. ASUS at least tried to
> keep in style, tried to have good design, not festered with small
> stickers like a porn site, clean monter with good selling points, and
> statements about support.
>
> HP and Dell have their work cut out for them.

It appears that HP is getting out of the PC business altogether. Compaq
may be spun off as the PC maker. Compaqs are already made in China.

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <868vp81...@zipcon.net>, k...@zipcon.net
(Patrick Scheible) writes:

> Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> writes:
>
>> Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
>> increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
>> wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!
>
> That's too bad. The least they could do is let you know it's safe to
> leave the airport for a couple of hours and get a meal someplace that
> serves decent food.

Maybe they have an agreement with the airport restaurants.

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[tony cooper]

Still on my bookshelf, in the Travel section, is Beth Bryant's
"Ireland on $5 A Day (1968-69 Edition) and Haggart & Porter's "England
on $5 & $10 A Day" (1968-69 Edition). Both books were used
extensively on that trip, and several restaurants and bed & breakfasts
where chosen based on those books. We were quite pleased with the
recommendations.

We flew Aer Lingus.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[tony cooper]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:39:10 -0700, Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net>
wrote:

Hah! I was stuck on a plane on a runway at Stapleton for almost three
hours due to snow. They wouldn't even taxi back to the terminal and
let us off the plane.

[Scott Lurndal]

Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> writes:

>The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
>of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
>scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
>between airports.
>

Longest I had to wait was at BUR, where they had to drive to LAX to get
a NO-GO part for the cockpit door lock. About 4:30 PM, took over 3 hours
for the mechanic to r/t BUR-LAX-BUR.

scott

[Joe Morris]

"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> <j.c.m...@verizon.net> wrote:

>>One of the political reasons for Dulles International Airport was that
>>until
>>it opened, for people in Washington the closest airport capable of
>>handling
>>jets was Baltimore Friendship (BAL, later Baltimore-Washington Airport
>>(BWI), and now "Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall
>>Airport"). Washington DC didn't like the idea of having to go all the way
>>to Baltimore to catch a jet (IIRC, 32 miles from the K street terminal) so
>>Dulles was built in what was then the far exurbs of Virginia...about a
>>mile
>>closer to downtown DC.

> The movie _Die Hard 2_ had a plot that depended upon Washington DC
> only having 1 airport. I couldn't figure out why they picked a city
> with 3 international airports for that plot.

Plus Andrews AFB for a real emergency. (Bolling AFB ceased to be an airport
long ago.)

OTOH, the absurd way that the movie used to realign the glide slope - plus
the idea of an airliner sitting in a holding pattern until it's got less
than "minimum fuel" (aka "bingo") - indicate that the scriptwriter wasn't
too concerned about reality even when there would be other ways, not quite
so idiotic, to accomplish the crash. One that comes to mind would be a
bogus PAR controller, even though in reality the only PAR facilities I've
had any contact with are at military fields, and certainly not IAD although
I have run a (practice) ASR there back in ye olde dayes when the controller
would beg inbound pilots to accept a practice approach so that the
controller could log it...

Joe

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:31:55 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen
<dhat...@cox.net> wrote:

>> IBM started the white shirt requirement that previously wasn't that
>> common. EDS later copied it.
>
>I got my first real job (with GMC) in 1955. Up through the 1950s and into
>the 1960s a coat and tie was standard dress for anyone not employed in
>some way as a manual laborer, whether skilled or unskilled (although in
>some skilled occupations ties were worn. I seem to recall that our tool
>and die makers wore ties, but our machinists didn't). In 1958 I got a job
>with Dictaphone Corporation as a field service technician, performing
>maintenance on the large numbers of Dictaphones in use by businesses all
>over the Youngstown, Ohio, metro area. White shirt, coat and tie were
>required dress.
>
>As far as I could tell this was the dress code for many, many years
>before, clear back into the late 19th century.
>
>(Indeed, the dress code required the wearing of a hat up into the 1950s.)

The Suit and Tie requirement is older than the White Shirt
requirement. Shirts didn't have to be pure white for all employees.

[Rod Speed]

David Hatunen wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> Walter Bushell wrote
>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote
>>>> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote

>>>>> It is a philosophy that's worked quite well for Apple. Presumably
>>>>> the rationale is, if somebody has taken the trouble to carefully
>>>>> design the exterior, that implies that somebody has also taken
>>>>> the trouble to carefully design the functional bits inside. The
>>>>> medium is the message.

>>>> Another famous example is some airline CEO who said if customers see
>>>> dirty ashtrays, they expect that the engine maintenance is also lacking.

>>> I've heard that restaurant "bathrooms" are a good marker for the
>>> hygiene of the restaurant.

>> They arent. The detail is very different, particularly with old food in the
>> fridge and with how the same preparation surfaces are used for food
>> that should not be on the same surfaces, like cooked and uncooked food.

> Anyone a fan of Kitchen Nightmares on television?

Not a fan so much, its much too stylised for my taste, but I have watch most of them.

> Gordon Ramsey comes across some pretty icky kitchens and pantries.

Sure, but its far from clear how much of that is exaggerated for effect.

[Bernd Felsche]

Hopes are for the technically inept.

It was easy enough to check which flight was overdue arriving at the
same gate. Use the flight "number" to check, via the Internet to see
when/if that flight left its point of departure...

[Bernd Felsche]

And enjoy another fondling at the insecurity gate?
Nowadays they won't even let you smoke afterwards!

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> writes:

> Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Bernd Felsche wrote:
>>> Skitt wrote:
>
>>>> Denver was where I had to suffer the longest delay for "technical
>>>> difficulties with the aircraft". They were repairing it, and they had
>>>> to take it out twice to the outlying parts of the airport for some sort
>>>> of tests before putting it back into service. That took a while ...
>
>>> The longest non-technical delay that I experienced was due to a lack
>>> of aircraft. It hadn't even taken off from the other airport by the
>>> scheduled boarding time; and there was about 100 minutes flying time
>>> between airports.
>>>
>>> Airline staff kept pushing out the boarding time in half-hour
>>> increments, even though they would have known that the aircraft
>>> wasn't even going to be at the airport for another 2 hours!
>
>>They didn't want to crush your hopes all at once.
>
> Hopes are for the technically inept.
>
> It was easy enough to check which flight was overdue arriving at the
> same gate. Use the flight "number" to check, via the Internet to see
> when/if that flight left its point of departure...

Of all the various infuriating things airlines have done to me, the one
that still needs the most Tums whenever I think about it was the time
many years ago (long enough that we didn't have cell phones, let alone
cell phones that could access the internet) my wife had one child in
Denver while I had another down here; I was to fly to Denver with the
one and we were to swap kids for reasons I don't remember now.

Frontier Airlines reported our flight was on time... took off... in the
air... right up until it was scheduled to land. That's when they
finally told the people in the waiting area that as a matter of fact it
had been cancelled, and never actually took off.

Fuck you, Frontier Airlines.

[tony cooper]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:31:55 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen
<dhat...@cox.net> wrote:

>I got my first real job (with GMC) in 1955. Up through the 1950s and into
>the 1960s a coat and tie was standard dress for anyone not employed in
>some way as a manual laborer, whether skilled or unskilled (although in
>some skilled occupations ties were worn. I seem to recall that our tool
>and die makers wore ties, but our machinists didn't). In 1958 I got a job
>with Dictaphone Corporation as a field service technician, performing
>maintenance on the large numbers of Dictaphones in use by businesses all
>over the Youngstown, Ohio, metro area. White shirt, coat and tie were
>required dress.
>
>As far as I could tell this was the dress code for many, many years
>before, clear back into the late 19th century.
>
>(Indeed, the dress code required the wearing of a hat up into the 1950s.)

When I started with the Chicago Tribune in 1960, we were required to
wear a white shirt and a tie at all times when in the building, and a
jacket and a hat when we left Trib Tower during the day. In 1961, the
rule was relaxed and that Oxford blue colored shirt was allowed.
Suits only, no sport jackets. Neckties could not be gaudy, but there
were no rules about color or design.

We received $5.00 a month shoeleather allowance in cash. Run-down
heels were not allowed and holes in the sole were unthinkable.
Several shoeshine boys* worked in the building and you could get your
shoes shined at your desk for a quarter plus a tip.

I never purchased a hat. There was a huge coatroom off the main lobby
with ex-employees hats in it. The day I started I found a hat in
there that fit, wore that hat for two years, and left it in the
coatroom when I resigned.

*It feels very awkward to write "shoeshine boys" today, but that's
what they were called then.