To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis
Endy9
This is my second Willis book (Passage was the other) and I'm finding I like
most of her characters. I find a need to like at least the main character
enough to root for them to be able to fully enjoy a book. Willis'
characters make me want to spend more time with them when the last page is
done.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
Things I liked about the book:
- Almost all the characters
- The time continuum having a personality/agenda
- the main characters not thinking free will/no free will an over riding
concern. Who cares just live life and enjoy it attitude.
- Princess Arjumand and Cyril
Things I didn't like about the book:
- Professor Peddick and Terence's long winded ness
- At times the story seemed to bog down. Some stream of consciousness side
trips could have been edited down.
--
Dennis/Endy
http://members.home.net/endymion91/index.htm
--
Htn963
>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The Annubis
Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
Unless you thought it's not even as "good" as _Doomsday_.
Ht
David T. Bilek
>"Endy9" wrote:
>
>>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
>
> Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
>undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The Annubis
>Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
>
Ah, you do know where the title is from, right?
> Unless you thought it's not even as "good" as _Doomsday_.
It's a lot better that that... thing. Not nearly as good as _Passage_
but not bad.
-David
Endy9
--
Dennis/Endy
http://members.home.net/endymion91/index.htm
--
"Htn963" <htn...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010815160901...@ng-co1.news.cs.com...
Zara Baxter
>"Endy9" wrote:
>
>>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
>
> Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
>undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The Annubis
>Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
I reckon if you didn't like _Doomsday Book_, then you're probably
better off avoiding TSNOTD.
I didn't mind _Doomsday Book_, but it didn't grab or overwhelm me, I
finished it and went "eh"; I can still remember the exact page number
where I thought TSNOTD started to be actually humourous (337).
_Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
I like the way she writes, I just don't like all of her books.
Zara
--
Currently reading _Perdido Street Station_ by China Mieville
Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading? Kate?)
James C. Ellis
>
> Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
> undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The
> Annubis Gates_ I may give it a whirl.
As a data point, I'd like to mention that my opinions of _Doomsday
Book_ seem to closely match yours, but I really liked TSNotD. In terms
of spirit they are night and day, even if they cover similar ground in
terms of plot.
(I'm not sure about the comparison to _Anubis Gates_ otoh...)
Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Me? Lady, I'm your worst nightmare - a pumpkin with a gun.
[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David T. Bilek
<zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 15 Aug 2001 20:09:01 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) scrawled:
>
>>"Endy9" wrote:
>>
>>>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>>>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
>>
>> Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
>>undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The Annubis
>>Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
>
>I reckon if you didn't like _Doomsday Book_, then you're probably
>better off avoiding TSNOTD.
>
Why do you think so? TSNOTD is vastly different in both tone and
style. I didnt even realize they were connected until it was pointed
out here (I've blocked most of _Doomsday Book_ from my memory).
>I didn't mind _Doomsday Book_, but it didn't grab or overwhelm me, I
>finished it and went "eh"; I can still remember the exact page number
>where I thought TSNOTD started to be actually humourous (337).
>
>_Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
>the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
>
Amazon has it in stock, shipping in 24 hours.
Amazon.co.uk has it on order, 1-2 weeks.
It's not terrible.
-David
jere7my tho?rpe
htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:
* Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
*undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The
*Annubis Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
TSNotD is a comedy of manners stapled loosely to a time travel
plot. Time travel is all that TSNotD has in common with _Doomsday
Book_, and in both books it's really only a tool to drive the plot and
allow Willis to explore another time. If you enjoy Jane Austen, I'd
recommend TSNotD, as it's a hoot; if not, avoid it.
I wouldn't have thought to compare it to _The Anubis Gates_, though
the basic form is similar. TAG is much more about evil and mysticism;
TSNotD is about falling in love and falling into muddy water and
befuddlement.
----j7y
--
*********************************** <*> ***********************************
jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "Oh, yeah. Old guys becoming pandas --
c/o kesh...@umich.edu _that's_ the future." Mike Nelson, MST3K
Dorothy J Heydt
jere7my tho?rpe <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote:
>. Time travel is all that TSNotD has in common with _Doomsday Book_...
Well, and some c haracters.
> I wouldn't have thought to compare it to _The Anubis Gates_, though
>the basic form is similar. TAG is much more about evil and mysticism;
>TSNotD is about falling in love and falling into muddy water and
>befuddlement.
And cats. Very important.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Richard Horton
<zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>_Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
>the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
I've still got the one I offered free on this newsgroup a week or two
back.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Matthew Austern
> In article <20010815160901...@ng-co1.news.cs.com>,
> htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:
>
> * Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
> *undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The
> *Annubis Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
>
> TSNotD is a comedy of manners stapled loosely to a time travel
> plot. Time travel is all that TSNotD has in common with _Doomsday
> Book_, and in both books it's really only a tool to drive the plot and
> allow Willis to explore another time. If you enjoy Jane Austen, I'd
> recommend TSNotD, as it's a hoot; if not, avoid it.
I wouldn't say so much "If you enjoy Jane Austen..." as "If you enjoy
Jerome K. Jerome...".
jere7my tho?rpe
Heydt) wrote:
*Well, and some c haracters.
Honestly, I'd forgotten that. Oops.
*And cats. Very important.
Well, no, it's clearly primarily about a _dog_. The cats are mere
foils for Cyril. Obviously. ;)=
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:56:32 +1000, Zara Baxter
><zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 15 Aug 2001 20:09:01 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) scrawled:
>>
>>>"Endy9" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>>>>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
>>>
>>> Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
>>>undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The Annubis
>>>Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
>>
>>I reckon if you didn't like _Doomsday Book_, then you're probably
>>better off avoiding TSNOTD.
>>
>
>Why do you think so? TSNOTD is vastly different in both tone and
>style. I didnt even realize they were connected until it was pointed
>out here (I've blocked most of _Doomsday Book_ from my memory).
I'm not sure - I associate the two very strongly. Perhaps because they
are both time travel, and I don't much like time travel at the best of
times. I guess it depends what you dislike about _Doomsday Book_.
>>_Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
>>the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
>Amazon has it in stock, shipping in 24 hours.
>
>Amazon.co.uk has it on order, 1-2 weeks.
*checks shipping cost*
*converts to Australian dollars*
*balks*
I'll wait and see if my special order for my local bookstore comes in
first, I think!
Zara Baxter
<rrho...@prodigy.net> scrawled:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:56:32 +1000, Zara Baxter
><zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>_Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
>>the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
>
>I've still got the one I offered free on this newsgroup a week or two
>back.
Oh.. please?!
I'm in Australia, so postage costs may be icky - but I'll cheerfully
send any Australian book you've been hankering for in exchange =)
(I'm guessing you're not the Richard Horton who edits the Lancet, eh?)
Htn963
>As a data point, I'd like to mention that my opinions of _Doomsday
>Book_ seem to closely match yours, but I really liked TSNotD.
Ok, thanks. Assuming the match, this data point will be weighted
heavily.
> In terms
>of spirit they are night and day, even if they cover similar ground in
>terms of plot.
_Doomsday_ was certainly night, or should I say nightmare. I felt like
I was coming down with the plague myself after finishing it.
> (I'm not sure about the comparison to _Anubis Gates_ otoh...)
Well, if it has even half, nay even a quarter, of the inventiveness and
wit of _Annubis_, it'll be worth the time investment.
But if it turns out I don't enjoy this _Dog_ also, then I'm never
reading anything by Willis again. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice,
shame on me, and all that...
[And thanks to everyone else for _their_ data points, hehe.]
> Biff
Ht
Jo Walton
aus...@research.att.com "Matthew Austern" writes:
> I wouldn't say so much "If you enjoy Jane Austen..." as "If you enjoy
> Jerome K. Jerome...".
I find Jerome K. Jerome dull, but I enjoyed tSNotD a lot.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now *THE KING'S NAME* out in November from Tor.
Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Dorothy J Heydt
jere7my tho?rpe <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <GI4y...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>*And cats. Very important.
>
> Well, no, it's clearly primarily about a _dog_. The cats are mere
>foils for Cyril. Obviously. ;)=
Cyril doesn't need foils. Cyril is a foil.
Matthew Austern
> In article <dilitfo...@isolde.research.att.com>
> aus...@research.att.com "Matthew Austern" writes:
>
> > I wouldn't say so much "If you enjoy Jane Austen..." as "If you enjoy
> > Jerome K. Jerome...".
>
> I find Jerome K. Jerome dull, but I enjoyed tSNotD a lot.
Oh well, scratch that theory.
I didn't like _The Doomsday Book_ very much, but I did like both
_Three Men in a Boat_ and _To Say Nothing of the Dog_. I think I
might have ended up liking _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ for some of the
same reasons that I didn't like _The Doomsday Book_: do some extent
both books have "idiot plots", and rely on witholding crucial
information from certain characters. That worked a lot better in _To
Say Nothing of the Dog_, though, first, because there are internal
reasons for the characters to behave foolishly and not notice certain
obvious things, and second, because those sorts of tricks are more
suited to farce in the first place.
Bernard Peek
<zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On 15 Aug 2001 20:09:01 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) scrawled:
>
>>"Endy9" wrote:
>>
>>>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>>>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
>>
>> Well, I detested _Doomsday Book_ and thought it one of the most
>>undeserving award winners ever, but if this one is comparable to _The Annubis
>>Gates_ I may give it a whirl. (Horrible title though.)
>
>I reckon if you didn't like _Doomsday Book_, then you're probably
>better off avoiding TSNOTD.
The two are very different. I thought TDB was a great book but TSNOTD
was merely OK, but very different. TDB is very dark while TSNOTD is a
four-dimensional Whitehall farce. They are set in the same universe but
then so were Romeo & Juliet and Macmillan and Wife.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
In search of cognoscenti
Jo Walton
zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
> _Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
> the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
It's not as good as _Bellweather_.
> I like the way she writes, I just don't like all of her books.
Have you read _Uncharted Territory_? That's the closest to _Bellwether_
up to _Passage_.
> Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading? Kate?)
Glug.
Kate Nepveu
> In article <f9olntg40fr6vjreg...@4ax.com>
> zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
> > Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading? Kate?)
The Paired Reading Page is not dead, it's just resting.
> Glug.
If that's a "I don't get it" glug, agreed; explanation?
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"The most courageous act is still to think for yourself. Aloud."
--Coco Chanel
Endy9
Anubis Gates very similar. I've thought about what made me associate them
and I believe it is that both contain strong elements of a mystery novel.
Puzzling things out from clues the author has given us are central to both
books.
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> In article <f9olntg40fr6vjreg...@4ax.com>
>> zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
>
>> > Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading? Kate?)
>
>The Paired Reading Page is not dead, it's just resting.
Ahh, good to hear. I liked it very much, while it was extant.
>> Glug.
>If that's a "I don't get it" glug, agreed; explanation?
See post in response to Jo =)
Zara
--
Currently reading _Perdido Street Station_ by China Mieville
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>In article <f9olntg40fr6vjreg...@4ax.com>
> zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
>
>> _Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
>> the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
>
>It's not as good as _Bellweather_.
Ah. Shame. Still, I'll be interested to see how she puts the idea into
practice.
>> I like the way she writes, I just don't like all of her books.
>
>Have you read _Uncharted Territory_? That's the closest to _Bellwether_
>up to _Passage_.
No - what's its main conceit? (theme, topic, etc)
>> Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading? Kate?)
>Glug.
Is that a good glug or a bad glug? ..
The similarities are fairly obvious I would have thought. Female horsy
type who becomes warleader for a beloved king. *grin*
No, I'm being glib.
There are much deeper resonances too - the "matter of factness" about
Sulien and Harry, for example. They both have a connection to a past
that is no longer, and to a greater "being" than themselves which few
around them also share. They both love their horse far more than
anything else on the planet... Sulien's loyalty is more to her king to
herself, whereas Harry is the other way around, but they make for a
wonderful comparison and theme-spotting exercise.
I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
made the best paired reading.
(reading _Perdido Street Station_ afterward is surprisingly
refreshing, though!)
Zara Baxter
--
Currently reading _Perdido Street Station_ by China Mieville
Kate Nepveu
> On 16 Aug 2001 20:07:56 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
> scrawled:
> >Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >> In article <f9olntg40fr6vjreg...@4ax.com>
> >> zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
> >> > Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading?
> >> > Kate?)
> >The Paired Reading Page is not dead, it's just resting.
> Ahh, good to hear. I liked it very much, while it was extant.
I'm a bit swamped at the moment, but I expect to have it updated
in a month or so.
Kate Nepveu
[_The Blue Sword_ & _The King's Peace_]
> There are much deeper resonances too - the "matter of factness" about
> Sulien and Harry, for example. They both have a connection to a past
> that is no longer,
Okay...
> and to a greater "being" than themselves which few
> around them also share.
Ummm, Aerin?
> They both love their horse far more than
> anything else on the planet...
Missing smiley?
> Sulien's loyalty is more to her king to
> herself, whereas Harry is the other way around, but they make for a
> wonderful comparison and theme-spotting exercise.
> I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
> made the best paired reading.
See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
David M. Silver
snip
> I didn't like _The Doomsday Book_ very much, but I did like both
> _Three Men in a Boat_ and _To Say Nothing of the Dog_. I think I
> might have ended up liking _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ for some of the
> same reasons that I didn't like _The Doomsday Book_: do some extent
> both books have "idiot plots", and rely on witholding crucial
> information from certain characters. That worked a lot better in _To
> Say Nothing of the Dog_, though, first, because there are internal
> reasons for the characters to behave foolishly and not notice certain
> obvious things, and second, because those sorts of tricks are more
> suited to farce in the first place.
I've enjoyed all three; but I'd say the 'internal reasons for characters to
behave foolishly' were present enough in The Dooms Day Book; that idiot
acting department head trying to cover up his mistakes and usurpation of
authority while the cat was away was a classic portrait of hundreds of Peter
Principle 'managers' out of control and uncaring whether their tools take it
in the throat; and everyone was suffering enough from one sort of fever or
another to behave less than clear-headedly.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>Zara Baxter (zara_...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
>
>[_The Blue Sword_ & _The King's Peace_]
>> There are much deeper resonances too - the "matter of factness" about
>> Sulien and Harry, for example. They both have a connection to a past
>> that is no longer,
>
>Okay...
>
>> and to a greater "being" than themselves which few
>> around them also share.
>
>Ummm, Aerin?
Partly, but also it seems to go deeper for Harry, to be a connection
to the land itself, much as Sulien has a connection to the land.
>> They both love their horse far more than
>> anything else on the planet...
>
>Missing smiley?
Well, yes. I thought it was an obvious smiley. =)
>> Sulien's loyalty is more to her king to
>> herself, whereas Harry is the other way around, but they make for a
>> wonderful comparison and theme-spotting exercise.
>
>> I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
>> made the best paired reading.
>
>See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
>Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
>really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
>that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
>the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
Ah - I have zero, zilch, nada, zip experience of Arthurian mythos, so
I couldn't read it that way.
Abigail Ann Young
Weeelll, YMMV, but I really loved JKJ's "Three Men in a Boat" and was
inclined to dismiss "To Say Nothing of the Dog" as a very sub-par imitation
when I first read it... I did give it a second read recently and found it
more likeable. I read "The Doomsday Book" for the first time and then
reread "To Say Nothing..." right afterwards, and I did find that they
benefitted from being read in the right order. I had very mixed feeling
about "Doomsday Book" -- parts of it were very evocative, but as a
mediaevalist I was always being annoyed by Dunworthy! I realise that the
author was using him as a foil, to contrast the differences between his
apprehensions and p.o.v. with the actual conditions that Kirvin found, but
it was still annoying...
Abigail
--
Abigail Ann Young (Dr), Associate Editor/Records of Early English Drama/
Victoria College/ 150 Charles Street W/ Toronto Ontario Canada M5S 1K9
Phone (416) 585-4504/ FAX (416) 813-4093/ abigai...@utoronto.ca
List-owner of REED-L <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed-l.html>
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed.html> REED's home page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/stage.html> our theatre resource page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~young> my home page
Shane Stezelberger
>Several people have pointed out that they don't consider TSNOTD and The
>Anubis Gates very similar. I've thought about what made me associate them
>and I believe it is that both contain strong elements of a mystery novel.
>Puzzling things out from clues the author has given us are central to both
>books.
[backhanded spoilers]
Well, there's also the inexplicable lack of gross,
fetishistically-depicted torture and bodily mutilation instances in
the Willis novel to separate the two, too.
Grrr.
It wasn't the *plot* tormenting that poor guy in _The Anubis Gates_,
it was the *author*. As they say. (I never did have an original
thought.)
--
Shane " loved _Dog_, loved _Lincoln's_, FWIW" Stezelberger
sstezel at erols dot kom
Laurel, MD
Shane Stezelberger
<zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:55:34 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
>scrawled:
>
>>Have you read _Uncharted Territory_? That's the closest to _Bellwether_
>>up to _Passage_.
>
>No - what's its main conceit? (theme, topic, etc)
A couple of buddies on a televised low-tech surveying team working on
an uncharted planet, with a pesky alien sidekick. That's all I could
remember.
I am very nearly Willis' Number One Fan, but I very nearly threw this
book across the room. I don't recall making it past page nine. I
simply recoiled at the sheer injustice of the situation -- I simply
do not like seeing human beings getting tortured like that. Like the
characters in that book.
--
Shane "everybody needs a throwing book" Stezelberger
Shane Stezelberger
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <keshlema-2E887D...@news.itd.umich.edu>,
>jere7my tho?rpe <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>> Well, no, it's clearly primarily about a _dog_. The cats are mere
>>foils for Cyril. Obviously. ;)=
>
>Cyril doesn't need foils. Cyril is a foil.
There's got to be a fencing punchline in here somewhere. Help me out,
folks. :-)
--
Shane Stezelberger
Jo Walton
zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:55:34 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
> scrawled:
>
> >In article <f9olntg40fr6vjreg...@4ax.com>
> > zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
> >
> >> _Bellwether_, on the other hand, I found fabulous, and I am scouring
> >> the earth for a copy of _Remake_ as we speak.
> >
> >It's not as good as _Bellwether_.
>
> Ah. Shame. Still, I'll be interested to see how she puts the idea into
> practice.
Oh, it's worth reading. But I think there are certain things Willis
does that all came together just right in _Bellwether_. It's probably
my favourite of her novels.
> >> I like the way she writes, I just don't like all of her books.
> >
> >Have you read _Uncharted Territory_? That's the closest to _Bellwether_
> >up to _Passage_.
>
> No - what's its main conceit? (theme, topic, etc)
It's about some people and aliens charting an alien planet, and political
correctness, and love. I just like it.
> >> Just read: _The Blue Sword_ and _The Kings Peace_ (paired reading? Kate?)
> >Glug.
>
> Is that a good glug or a bad glug? ..
It's an "I can sort of see where you're coming from but I'd never have
had that thought myself" glug. I really like McKinley.
> The similarities are fairly obvious I would have thought. Female horsy
> type who becomes warleader for a beloved king. *grin*
>
> No, I'm being glib.
>
> There are much deeper resonances too - the "matter of factness" about
> Sulien and Harry, for example. They both have a connection to a past
> that is no longer, and to a greater "being" than themselves which few
> around them also share. They both love their horse far more than
> anything else on the planet... Sulien's loyalty is more to her king to
> herself, whereas Harry is the other way around, but they make for a
> wonderful comparison and theme-spotting exercise.
>
> I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
> made the best paired reading.
They both have a theme of loyalty, come to that.
> (reading _Perdido Street Station_ afterward is surprisingly
> refreshing, though!)
I can see why you'd need a palate cleanser, yes.
Mark Reichert
news:997962...@bluejo.demon.co.uk...
> It's not as good as _Bellweather_.
Well, I'm a big film buff so I like Remake about as much as Bellweather. It
was Uncharted Territory I could only tolerate. I read the three in a
collection loaned to me by friends.
Mark Reichert
news:dilelqc...@isolde.research.att.com...
> same reasons that I didn't like _The Doomsday Book_: do some extent
> both books have "idiot plots", and rely on witholding crucial
> information from certain characters. That worked a lot better in _To
How did you feel about Fire Watch, the other story involving that time
traveling historian group?
Matthew Austern
No opinion; I haven't read it.
Kate Nepveu
> On 16 Aug 2001 21:35:07 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
> scrawled:
> >> I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
> >> made the best paired reading.
> >See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
> >Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
> >really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
> >that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
> >the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
> Ah - I have zero, zilch, nada, zip experience of Arthurian mythos, so
> I couldn't read it that way.
Really? I thought that was just cultural white noise, I'm amazed
you could read fantasy and grow up in the UK and not know at least
a smattering about the Matter of Britain.
Don't mind me as I go boggle in the corner...
This is like the person who read the Sarantium books without having
looked up Justinian in the encyclopedia (which is less boggling to
me). It must be a very different reading experience.
Georgiana Gates
>
> Zara Baxter (zara_...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
> > On 16 Aug 2001 21:35:07 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
> > scrawled:
>
> > >> I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
> > >> made the best paired reading.
>
> > >See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
> > >Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
> > >really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
> > >that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
> > >the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
>
the twist that Lancelot is a girl.
Kate Nepveu
> > > On 16 Aug 2001 21:35:07 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
> > > scrawled:
> > > >See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
> > > >Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
> > > >really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
> > > >that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
> > > >the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
> Yes, the Arthur story told from the point of view of Lancelot, with
> the twist that Lancelot is a girl.
Err, what?
Sulien talks about "vows unbroken" or something in her prologue, so
I don't know where you get Lancelot out of that.
Unless you mean "very good knight and close to Arthur," in which case
I suggest you pick a less fraught way of saying so...
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>Zara Baxter (zara_...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
>> On 16 Aug 2001 21:35:07 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
>> scrawled:
>
>> >> I've read four "horse and it's girl" stories in a row, but those two
>> >> made the best paired reading.
>
>> >See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
>> >Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
>> >really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
>> >that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
>> >the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
>
>> Ah - I have zero, zilch, nada, zip experience of Arthurian mythos, so
>> I couldn't read it that way.
>
>Really? I thought that was just cultural white noise, I'm amazed
>you could read fantasy and grow up in the UK and not know at least
>a smattering about the Matter of Britain.
There ya go.
Now Vikings, Hastings, etc.. sure, I'm very familiar. I only grew up
in the UK til age 11 though, so I think we covered only select aspects
at juniors.
As for Arthur - I know enough to know some of the names, and to know
that Arthur pulled a sword from a stone - or got handed it by the lady
of the lake? - and that's about it.
>Don't mind me as I go boggle in the corner...
*watches and takes notes*
Someone following this post said "It's told from the POV of Lancelot,
where Lancelot is a woman".
I'd been trying to work out for a week who on earth Sulien could
possibly be, in an Arthurian mythos. I don't think I would have
guessed it without help. Even now, I'm not sure it adds anything to
the story, for me, to know. It's just noise.
>This is like the person who read the Sarantium books without having
>looked up Justinian in the encyclopedia (which is less boggling to
>me). It must be a very different reading experience.
So, er.. who is Justinian?
I'm feeling very, very stupid and dense now.
My high school history experience may be unique.
<junior school, UK - viking longships and lifestyle/housing, battle of
hastings, medieval lifestyle and housing, castle construction methods,
roman invasion of England - we did a lot of "social" history, but not
much dates/people/events stuff>
Yr 8 - ancient egypt, ancient sumeria, ancient greece
Yr 9 - Did no history courses (I was taking extra language and maths
courses, and I chose geography as my social science elective, learning
all about the East India company...).
Yr 10 - very local history (our region only) of South Australia
Yr 11 - no history courses (I was a math/science geek)
Yr 12 - no history courses (as above)
I think I may be the only student to get through an Australian high
school without learning any Australian history. Eureka stockade? Gold
rush? what gold rush? I ..er know when Matthew Flinders spotted Lake
Alexandrina, and that's about it.
For my own interest I've read some stuff, but again, my interests have
been in social history - life of peasants, daily routine, etc
Tragic, eh?
=)
Zara Baxter
--
Currently reading _Barrayar_ by Lois McMaster Bujold
Just read: _Perdido Street Station_ and _Shards of Honor_
Dorothy J Heydt
Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
things, among them,
* He "rehabilitated" a prostitute, Theodora, and married her
and made her Empress. Their portraits in mosaic,
surrounded by their attendants, can be seen in the church
of San Vitale in Ravenna, Italy.
* There was near-civil-war on his shift, fueled by conflict
between two political parties known as the Blues and the
Greens from the colors of the athletic teams they favored.
Urged on by Theodora, who told him, "Nika!" ("Conquer!")
Justinian put the "Nika Riots" down and increased his power.
* He sent his very capable general, Belisarius, to conquer
Italy and restore it to the Empire. In our timeline he
succeeded, laying Italy waste in the process. For another
version, see deCamp's _Lest Darkness Fall._
* He later recalled, fired, and in some accounts blinded
Belisarius because anyone that successful must be aiming
to seize the throne. For another version, see Bel Riose
in Asimov's _Foundation and Empire._
* We know a lot about him, not only from the proper
histories, but from the _Secret History_ of Procopius
of Caesaria, who was Belisarius's secretary and wrote
down *everything.* Such as what Theodora used to complain
about before she made a career change.
That should be enough to go on for a while.
Kate Nepveu
> On 20 Aug 2001 01:19:12 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
> scrawled:
> >Zara Baxter (zara_...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
> >> >See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
> >> >Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
> >> >really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
> >> >that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
> >> >the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
> >> Ah - I have zero, zilch, nada, zip experience of Arthurian mythos, so
> >> I couldn't read it that way.
> >Really? I thought that was just cultural white noise, I'm amazed
> >you could read fantasy and grow up in the UK and not know at least
> >a smattering about the Matter of Britain.
> There ya go.
> Now Vikings, Hastings, etc.. sure, I'm very familiar. I only grew up
> in the UK til age 11 though, so I think we covered only select aspects
> at juniors.
Ah, I figured the e-mail address was significant. Sorry.
> As for Arthur - I know enough to know some of the names, and to know
> that Arthur pulled a sword from a stone - or got handed it by the lady
> of the lake? - and that's about it.
Either or both, actually; I'm not sure if that's supposed to be
the same sword.
> Someone following this post said "It's told from the POV of Lancelot,
> where Lancelot is a woman".
Which I disagreed with, rather strongly.
> I'd been trying to work out for a week who on earth Sulien could
> possibly be, in an Arthurian mythos. I don't think I would have
> guessed it without help. Even now, I'm not sure it adds anything to
> the story, for me, to know. It's just noise.
I don't think Sulien's _anyone_ in an Arthurian mythos. I could be
wrong, mind, but I don't see why she has to be. This _isn't_
Arthur, after all; there's no Merlin, as best I can tell, or
incest, or anything like.
> >This is like the person who read the Sarantium books without having
> >looked up Justinian in the encyclopedia (which is less boggling to
> >me). It must be a very different reading experience.
> So, er.. who is Justinian?
Well, I didn't know who Justinian was either, but when I read
_Sailing to Sarantium_, I said, "Hmm. Some of this sounds vaguely
familiar," and went to Britannica Online until I found it out.
(I see Dorothy's answered this question in greater detail.)
Abigail Ann Young
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> In article <edk1otschb3ob10aa...@4ax.com>,
> Zara Baxter <zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >So, er.. who is Justinian?
>
> Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
> Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
> things, among them,
> [...]
>
> * We know a lot about him, not only from the proper
> histories, but from the _Secret History_ of Procopius
> of Caesaria, who was Belisarius's secretary and wrote
> down *everything.* Such as what Theodora used to complain
> about before she made a career change.
>
> That should be enough to go on for a while.
Belisarius, if you get interested in him, is also the subject of one of
RObert Graves's better historical pulp novels, called _Count Belisarius_.
Lois Tilton
> Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
> Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
> things, among them,
This was the most famous of the Justinians, but there were several.
Harry Turtledove, under his Turteltaub pseudo, did a novel about one of
the others and titled it =Justinian=, thereby confusing a number of
readers who expected Theodora's Justinian and didn't know that he'd lost
his nose.
--
LT
Jordan S. Bassior
>Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
>Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
>things, among them,
>
> * He "rehabilitated" a prostitute, Theodora, and married her
> and made her Empress. Their portraits in mosaic,
> surrounded by their attendants, can be seen in the church
> of San Vitale in Ravenna, Italy.
And she turned out to be one of the bravest and most competent Empresses in the
history of either Empire, too. Even Procopius had to give her backhanded
compliments in the course of insulting her.
> * He later recalled, fired, and in some accounts blinded
> Belisarius because anyone that successful must be aiming
> to seize the throne. For another version, see Bel Riose
> in Asimov's _Foundation and Empire._
In Eric Flint and David Drake's series about Belisarius, this tragic mistake is
avoided, though Justinian doesn't do so well for himself (for unrelated
reasons).
--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
"To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On
the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too
late." (Churchill, 1934)
--
Michael S. Schiffer
>In article <edk1otschb3ob10aa...@4ax.com>,
>Zara Baxter <zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>So, er.. who is Justinian?
>Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
>Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
>things, among them,
>...
> * We know a lot about him, not only from the proper
> histories, but from the _Secret History_ of Procopius
> of Caesaria, who was Belisarius's secretary and wrote
> down *everything.* Such as what Theodora used to complain
> about before she made a career change.
Well, and that Justinian was a demon (whose head occasionally
disappeared when he wasn't paying attention) who was directly
responsible for the deaths of a trillion people. (IOW, it's the most
entertaining scandal sheet of its millennium, and Procopius was one of
the great historians, but some of his muckraking should probably be
taken with a train of salt.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
ms...@mediaone.net
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Dorothy J Heydt
Abigail Ann Young <abigai...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>> In article <edk1otschb3ob10aa...@4ax.com>,
>> Zara Baxter <zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >So, er.. who is Justinian?
>>
>> Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
>> Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
>> things, among them,
>> [...]
>>
>> * We know a lot about him, not only from the proper
>> histories, but from the _Secret History_ of Procopius
>> of Caesaria, who was Belisarius's secretary and wrote
>> down *everything.* Such as what Theodora used to complain
>> about before she made a career change.
>>
>> That should be enough to go on for a while.
>
>Belisarius, if you get interested in him, is also the subject of one of
>RObert Graves's better historical pulp novels, called _Count Belisarius_.
True, but remember to take everything Graves says with a grain of
salt, because when he doesn't know the relevant facts he makes
them up.
(I do too. I usually try to put a warning note out when I do it,
though.)
Jo Walton
zara_...@yahoo.co.uk "Zara Baxter" writes:
> I'd been trying to work out for a week who on earth Sulien could
> possibly be, in an Arthurian mythos. I don't think I would have
> guessed it without help. Even now, I'm not sure it adds anything to
> the story, for me, to know. It's just noise.
I probably shouldn't say anything, but I think your reading is perfectly
valid.
One of the ways I _wanted_ it to be readable is as a woman-on-horse-
with-spear novel. Feel free to take everything entirely on its own
terms and don't pay any attention to other people's identifications
unless you want to.
David T. Bilek
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <edk1otschb3ob10aa...@4ax.com>,
>Zara Baxter <zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>So, er.. who is Justinian?
>
>Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
>Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
>things, among them,
>
...
> * We know a lot about him, not only from the proper
> histories, but from the _Secret History_ of Procopius
> of Caesaria, who was Belisarius's secretary and wrote
> down *everything.* Such as what Theodora used to complain
> about before she made a career change.
>
It is my understanding that Procopius' _Secret History_ was the 6th
century AD equivalent of something like Judicial Watch or any other
rabidly venomous political scandal sheet with rumor-mongering
undertones. Is this not true?
-David
Dorothy J Heydt
David T. Bilek <dbi...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>It is my understanding that Procopius' _Secret History_ was the 6th
>century AD equivalent of something like Judicial Watch or any other
>rabidly venomous political scandal sheet with rumor-mongering
>undertones. Is this not true?
Wellll... Procopius was not writing for publication, nor did he
intend to make any political hay out of it. He was certainly
bitter about the things he'd seen, and if he could find a nasty
way of saying something and a nicer way of saying the same thing
he'd pick the nasty way. This doesn't mean what he wrote wasn't
true.
Abigail Ann Young
The trouble is Graves never thought of himself as making these things up
but as Discerning Truths Others Could Not -- it makes the ground
particularly treacherous when using his avowed non-fiction, since you never
quite know when the Special Knowledge Available Only to True Poets is being
used and when he's just far better read in obscure classical authors than
the rest of us!
Nicholas Whyte
<abigai...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>> In article <3B812B14...@utoronto.ca>,
>> Abigail Ann Young <abigai...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>> >Belisarius, if you get interested in him, is also the subject of one of
>> >RObert Graves's better historical pulp novels, called _Count Belisarius_.
>>
>> True, but remember to take everything Graves says with a grain of
>> salt, because when he doesn't know the relevant facts he makes
>> them up.
>>
>
>The trouble is Graves never thought of himself as making these things up
>but as Discerning Truths Others Could Not -- it makes the ground
>particularly treacherous when using his avowed non-fiction, since you never
>quite know when the Special Knowledge Available Only to True Poets is being
>used and when he's just far better read in obscure classical authors than
>the rest of us!
I have to say that as a fan of both Graves and Byzantine history I
found "Count Belisarius" desperately disappointing; tedious and
unreadable. Am I alone in this?
Nicholas
Zara Baxter
>In article <edk1otschb3ob10aa...@4ax.com>,
>Zara Baxter <zara_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>So, er.. who is Justinian?
>
>Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
>Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
>things, among them,
<snip>
Thanks Dorothy!
This will add depths to _Sailing to Sarantium_, when I get around to
reading it RSN.
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>Zara Baxter (zara_...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
>> On 20 Aug 2001 01:19:12 GMT, kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu)
>> scrawled:
>> >Zara Baxter (zara_...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
>
>> >> >See, it just never would have occured to me to call _The King's
>> >> >Peace_ "horse and its girl." Perhaps because Sulien doesn't
>> >> >really feel like a "girl" to me, perhaps because it's not really
>> >> >that horse-y, and perhaps because it goes much more obviously in
>> >> >the "alternate past riffs on Arthur" category...
>
>> >> Ah - I have zero, zilch, nada, zip experience of Arthurian mythos, so
>> >> I couldn't read it that way.
>
>> >Really? I thought that was just cultural white noise, I'm amazed
>> >you could read fantasy and grow up in the UK and not know at least
>> >a smattering about the Matter of Britain.
>
>> There ya go.
>
>> Now Vikings, Hastings, etc.. sure, I'm very familiar. I only grew up
>> in the UK til age 11 though, so I think we covered only select aspects
>> at juniors.
>
>Ah, I figured the e-mail address was significant. Sorry.
Oops! I keep forgetting about that. I'm not entirely sure why Yahoo
gave me a UK address.. maybe the Australian ones ran out =)
>> Someone following this post said "It's told from the POV of Lancelot,
>> where Lancelot is a woman".
>
>Which I disagreed with, rather strongly.
I saw the post; that makes me feel a bit better, actually.
Thanks =)
J.B. Moreno
> Georgiana Gates (ram...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>
> > > > kh...@pantheon.yale.edu (Kate Nepveu) scrawled:
-snip wouldn't think of it as a "girl and her horse"-
> > Yes, the Arthur story told from the point of view of Lancelot, with
> > the twist that Lancelot is a girl.
>
> Err, what?
>
> Sulien talks about "vows unbroken" or something in her prologue, so
> I don't know where you get Lancelot out of that.
>
> Unless you mean "very good knight and close to Arthur," in which case
> I suggest you pick a less fraught way of saying so...
No, she means Lancelot. But there are consequences of the twist, and
that's one of them.
--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg
Kate Nepveu
I just feel like Sulien's so _herself_ that I can't really think of
her in these terms. But anyway, why don't one of you elaborate?
Scott the RMT, who is building his massage practice....
> >
> > Justinian was an Emperor of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantinian,
> > Empire, in the sixth century CE. He is notable for a number of
> > things, among them,
> > [...]
> >
> > * We know a lot about him, not only from the proper
> > histories, but from the _Secret History_ of Procopius
> > of Caesaria, who was Belisarius's secretary and wrote
> > down *everything.* Such as what Theodora used to complain
> > about before she made a career change.
> >
> > That should be enough to go on for a while.
>
> Belisarius, if you get interested in him, is also the subject of one of
> RObert Graves's better historical pulp novels, called _Count Belisarius_.
And a recent series by David Drake and Eric Flint. Science fiction, sort
of.
J.B. Moreno
> J.B. Moreno (pl...@newsreaders.com) wrote:
> > Kate Nepveu <kh...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
> > > Georgiana Gates (ram...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>
> > > > Yes, the Arthur story told from the point of view of Lancelot, with
> > > > the twist that Lancelot is a girl.
>
> > > Err, what?
> > > Sulien talks about "vows unbroken" or something in her prologue, so
> > > I don't know where you get Lancelot out of that.
>
> > > Unless you mean "very good knight and close to Arthur," in which case
> > > I suggest you pick a less fraught way of saying so...
>
> > No, she means Lancelot. But there are consequences of the twist, and
> > that's one of them.
>
> I just feel like Sulien's so _herself_ that I can't really think of
> her in these terms. But anyway, why don't one of you elaborate?
What a shame, I shall have to reread the book before going into more
details, oh, the misery, oh, the horror...
David Goldfarb
Kate Nepveu <kh...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
>I just feel like Sulien's so _herself_ that I can't really think of
>her in these terms.
I agree. Besides, Morwen, the Morgan Le Fay-analog, explicitly tells us
that Sulien doesn't map to anybody in the Arthur legends.
--
David Goldfarb <*>| "It's not called 'The Net of a Million Lies'
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | for nothing."
|
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_
Martin Wisse
>Just finished this. I give it *** out of 5 stars. Good read.
>
>This is my second Willis book (Passage was the other) and I'm finding I like
>most of her characters. I find a need to like at least the main character
>enough to root for them to be able to fully enjoy a book. Willis'
>characters make me want to spend more time with them when the last page is
>done.
>
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>
>S
>P
>A
>C
>E
>
>Brought to mind Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates," although the focus here was
>more on personalities/romance than the actual time travel story.
>
>Things I liked about the book:
>
>- Almost all the characters
>- The time continuum having a personality/agenda
>- the main characters not thinking free will/no free will an over riding
>concern. Who cares just live life and enjoy it attitude.
>- Princess Arjumand and Cyril
The whole Jerome K. Jerome derived atmosphere. You do know that _To Say
nothing of the Dog_ is the subtitle of his most famous book; _Three Men
in a Boat_? If not, go and read this book: it's good and very, very
funny.
>Things I didn't like about the book:
>- Professor Peddick and Terence's long winded ness
>- At times the story seemed to bog down. Some stream of consciousness side
>trips could have been edited down.
Thoughtless spoilering off various books: _Gaudy Night_ and _The
Moonstone_ frex.
A feeling that Willis was sometimes trying to hard.
Martin Wisse
--
An aspect of Usenet I never cease to find entertaining is its asynchronicity;
you can watch two, three, four, a dozen people make the same dumb mistake,
each blissfully unaware of the others. You don't know whether to wince or
hold up Olympic rating cards. -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden in rasseff.
Dorothy J Heydt
Martin Wisse <mwi...@ad-astra.demon.nl> wrote:
>
>Thoughtless spoilering off various books: _Gaudy Night_ and _The
>Moonstone_ frex.
Thoughtless? Heck, it was deliberate, leading up to the moment
when our heroine, soap-dish strapped to knee and hands on the
Ouija board, sends the message, "Go to Coventry....."
That's not "spoilering", that's _hommage._
Endy9
news:GIF6K...@kithrup.com...
> In article <3b8d41b5...@news.demon.nl>,
> Martin Wisse <mwi...@ad-astra.demon.nl> wrote:
> >
> >Thoughtless spoilering off various books: _Gaudy Night_ and _The
> >Moonstone_ frex.
>
> Thoughtless? Heck, it was deliberate, leading up to the moment
> when our heroine, soap-dish strapped to knee and hands on the
> Ouija board, sends the message, "Go to Coventry....."
>
> That's not "spoilering", that's _hommage._
>
> Dorothy J. Heydt
The séance was my favorite scene!!
--
Dennis/Endy
http://members.home.net/endymion91/index.htm
--
Kate Nepveu
> In article <9ls6tb$6hf$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
> Kate Nepveu <kh...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
> >I just feel like Sulien's so _herself_ that I can't really think of
> >her in these terms.
> I agree. Besides, Morwen, the Morgan Le Fay-analog, explicitly tells us
> that Sulien doesn't map to anybody in the Arthur legends.
Which I'd forgotten about when I first objected to this idea, but
that too.
Jo Walton
nichol...@hotmail.com "Nicholas Whyte" writes:
> I have to say that as a fan of both Graves and Byzantine history I
> found "Count Belisarius" desperately disappointing; tedious and
> unreadable. Am I alone in this?
It's not his best book.
_Sailing to Sarantium_/_Lord of Emperors_ is much better.
There are, as I've pointed out before, positively scads of SF novels
which use the story of Justinian/Theodora/Belisarius. It appears to
have some strange attraction to a lot of writers. I suppose for a
story to be written by Kay, Pournelle, Drake/Stirling and Graves is
interesting just of itself.
(The Emperor Sabbatien of Caer Custenn who is mentioned briefly in
_The King's Peace_ is their world's Justinian equivalent. All of
that stuff is going on quietly in the background. Contingent events.
History is full of them.)
Zara Baxter
scrawled:
>(The Emperor Sabbatien of Caer Custenn who is mentioned briefly in
>_The King's Peace_ is their world's Justinian equivalent. All of
>that stuff is going on quietly in the background.
That's very cool to know. =)
Phil Fraering
> David Goldfarb (gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
> > In article <9ls6tb$6hf$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
> > Kate Nepveu <kh...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
>
> > >I just feel like Sulien's so _herself_ that I can't really think of
> > >her in these terms.
>
> > I agree. Besides, Morwen, the Morgan Le Fay-analog, explicitly tells us
> > that Sulien doesn't map to anybody in the Arthur legends.
>
> Which I'd forgotten about when I first objected to this idea, but
> that too.
But Lancelot wasn't in the original legends anyway, was he? Maybe Lancelot
is a distorted version of Sulien, leaking across the timeline.
--
Phil Fraering "Do you like country music? So do I, and I
p...@globalreach.net sure do miss it..." -KBON radio announcer
William December Starr
sst...@erols.com said:
> It wasn't the *plot* tormenting that poor guy in _The Anubis Gates_,
> it was the *author*. As they say. (I never did have an original
> thought.)
Plots don't torture characters, just readers.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
LAFF
gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote:
> In article <9ls6tb$6hf$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
> Kate Nepveu <kh...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
> >I just feel like Sulien's so _herself_ that I can't really think of
> >her in these terms.
>
> I agree. Besides, Morwen, the Morgan Le Fay-analog, explicitly tells us
> that Sulien doesn't map to anybody in the Arthur legends.
All of which is true. But still, some people in their circle of
acquaintances *think* Sulien and Urdo are (or were) lovers, that her son
is his. This is, of course, not so, but those who believe it are liable
to see a love triangle similar to the Lancelot-Guinevere-Arthur one.
--
Lois Fundis lfu...@weir.net
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Cockpit/9377/handy-dandy.html
"I wanted to be a writer-performer like the Pythons. In
fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to
realise that the job was, in fact, taken."
-- Douglas Adams (1952-2001)
Phil Fraering
> But Lancelot wasn't in the original legends anyway, was he? Maybe Lancelot
> is a distorted version of Sulien, leaking across the timeline.
Ack, I forgot, I'm not here, am I... darn it...
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>In article <3b8d41b5...@news.demon.nl>,
>Martin Wisse <mwi...@ad-astra.demon.nl> wrote:
>>
>>Thoughtless spoilering off various books: _Gaudy Night_ and _The
>>Moonstone_ frex.
>
>Thoughtless? Heck, it was deliberate, leading up to the moment
>when our heroine, soap-dish strapped to knee and hands on the
>Ouija board, sends the message, "Go to Coventry....."
>
>That's not "spoilering", that's _hommage._
Feh. It's still needless spoiling of books, done in a hamfisted way.
A better writer could've done homage without the spoilers, but Willis
had to telegraph the homage: "lookat me! I've read the Moonstone! Ain't
it great?".
Martin Wisse
--
Gah. You know there's people apparently paying for pr0n feeds
for their cellphone.
Yeah, I know. I helped build the infrastructure.
Peter da Silva and Matt McLeod, SDM