The Red Ajah (Minor LoC Spoilers)
Jared S. Samet
the least.) I sincerely apologize to anyone who saw the previous post and
was offended by my "blasphemy" and I hope that no-one has put me in their
killfile because of this. However, IF, and this is a big IF, I am right
about this nasty streak in the series that I see, I will be incredibly angry.
A modified version follows...
From news.ycc.yale.edu!jsamet Sun Oct 30 05:41:04 1994
Path: news.ycc.yale.edu!jsamet
From: jsa...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Jared S. Samet)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan
Subject: The Red Ajah (Minor LoC Spoilers)
Date: 30 Oct 1994 07:20:21 GMT
Organization: Yale University
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spoiler space...
Ok. There's something in LoC that really bothered me. At one point,
Jordan writes (approx wording) "What the rest of the Aes Sedai thought
about the Red Ajah's views of men was better left unsaid." Then, in "The
Feast of Lights", p. 661, "And Galina [red/black Ajah] herself wanted the
doll-like Gleaner Green to rid herself of her rage as soon as possible.
Much better to travel the rest of the way able to admire that porcelain
face unruffled." Then in "The Feast of Lights", pg 664, "'Come to my
tent,' Galina said soothingly. 'I have some nice blueberry tea, and I
will put a cool, damp cloth on your brow.'"
Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
[censored]
Just a couple things to keep in mind...
1) Lesbian does not mean man-hating.
2) Lesbian does not mean evil.
3) Homophobia is not in style.
I hate to bring PC into this group, but I want to know if I'm just
jumping at shadows or if RJ's being a bigoted jerk.
I still think he's an incredible writer. I'll just lose a hell of a lot
of respect for him if this is what he means.
--Jared "Osan'gar" Samet
Charles William Swiger
I'll try to avoid doing so myself.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 30-Oct-94 The
Red Ajah (Minor LoC Spo.. by Jared S. Samet@minerva.c
> Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
I don't believe that RJ insinuates anything about the WoT world. After
all, RJ created it, so it's his invention to do with what he would.
> If so, I have a message for him that I would like him to hear..
> FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE
Wow! Well, I guess you've made your point in pretty blunt terms.
<shrug> You have the right to your opinion.
> If not, ignore the preceding angry message. Just b/c RJ is from the
> Citadel doesn't mean he has to be quite as bigoted as his military
> brothers are.
Wow (again)! There are a whole lot of assumptions and prejudices built
into that comment.
I don't believe one can conclude that RJ is a bigot because he went to
the Citadel.
I don't believe one can conclude that all other people who went to the
Citadel and/or are in the military are bigoted. Some are, certainly.
"Brothers" implies males. The United States military forces have female
members.
> A couple more things that RJ should know if he's insinuating RA = lesbian:
>
> 1) Lesbian does not mean man-hating.
> 2) Lesbian does not mean evil.
> 3) Homophobia is not in style.
All true. However, RJ (or anyone else) has the right to be homophobic
if they choose to. I wouldn't be surprised if RJ was trying to suggest
Red Ajah = lesbian (in general), but that certainly doesn't mean that
all RA are evil (q.v. Elaida, the new Amyrlin).
FWIW, I'd consider it certain that some (if not many) of the Green Ajah
are bisexual. Consult a psychology textbook on human sexuality for
justification, or perhaps even the writings of Robert A. Heinlein.
> I hate to bring PC into this group, but I want to know if I'm just
> jumping at shadows or if he's being a bigoted shithead.
IMHO, you definitely are jumping at shadows.
It's conceivable that RJ is bigoted, but I haven't seen much evidence of it.
I very much doubt that RJ is a "shithead"-- he's struck me as one of the
more intelligent people around based on the remarks I've heard on the
net and the quality and complexity of his writing.
> I still think he's an incredible writer. I'll just lose a hell of a lot
> of respect for him if this is what he means.
Okay-- that's your concern. Deal.
-Chuck
Charles William Swiger - WhiteLight Systems | Vitamin L Rule #1:
--------------------------------------------+
AMS & normal mail: infi...@cmu.edu | If you "whoosh" me, I'll
NeXTmail: ch...@cswiger.slip.andrew.cmu.edu | _poke_ you! (Ouch.)
Tom
: Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
: Just a couple things to keep in mind...
: 1) Lesbian does not mean man-hating.
: 2) Lesbian does not mean evil.
: 3) Homophobia is not in style.
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
I was hoping I wouldn't have to put up with this on this news group.
How come every news group is viewed in homosexual terms?
: I hate to bring PC into this group, but I want to know if I'm just
: jumping at shadows or if RJ's being a bigoted jerk.
No, you are being the bigoted jerk. Quit trying to censor Robert
Jordan! Are you going to applaud him if Elaida turns out to be the
hero?
- Tom Burke
Piglet
Jared S. Samet <jsa...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
>I have cancelled my original post because it was a bit extreme (to say
>the least.) I sincerely apologize to anyone who saw the previous post and
>was offended by my "blasphemy" and I hope that no-one has put me in their
>killfile because of this. However, IF, and this is a big IF, I am right
>about this nasty streak in the series that I see, I will be incredibly angry.
>
>A modified version follows...
>
>
>Ok. There's something in LoC that really bothered me. At one point,
>Jordan writes (approx wording) "What the rest of the Aes Sedai thought
>about the Red Ajah's views of men was better left unsaid." Then, in "The
>Feast of Lights", p. 661, "And Galina [red/black Ajah] herself wanted the
>doll-like Gleaner Green to rid herself of her rage as soon as possible.
>Much better to travel the rest of the way able to admire that porcelain
>face unruffled." Then in "The Feast of Lights", pg 664, "'Come to my
>tent,' Galina said soothingly. 'I have some nice blueberry tea, and I
>will put a cool, damp cloth on your brow.'"
>
>Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
I don't think so. One lesbian in all the reds we have seen does not
imply that they are all Lesbians. They all hate men, agreed, but that
does not a Lesbian make (at least I don't *think* so...).
So calm down, lay down, and don't think about Galina. I really don't
think he is implied that they are all lesbians.
Judy G.
--
Judy Ghirardelli || Love is Always , Me is Life
ju...@ren.psy.jhu.edu || Forever is just another Smile
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"It's hard to Small when you're a Very Brave Animal" - Piglet Sedai
Laura Gjovaag
>In article <38vte4$7...@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
>Jared S. Samet <jsa...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
>>I have cancelled my original post because it was a bit extreme (to say
>>the least.) I sincerely apologize to anyone who saw the previous post and
>>was offended by my "blasphemy" and I hope that no-one has put me in their
>>killfile because of this. However, IF, and this is a big IF, I am right
>>about this nasty streak in the series that I see, I will be incredibly angry.
>>
>>A modified version follows...
>>
>>
>
>>Ok. There's something in LoC that really bothered me. At one point,
>>Jordan writes (approx wording) "What the rest of the Aes Sedai thought
>>about the Red Ajah's views of men was better left unsaid." Then, in "The
>>Feast of Lights", p. 661, "And Galina [red/black Ajah] herself wanted the
>>doll-like Gleaner Green to rid herself of her rage as soon as possible.
>>Much better to travel the rest of the way able to admire that porcelain
>>face unruffled." Then in "The Feast of Lights", pg 664, "'Come to my
>>tent,' Galina said soothingly. 'I have some nice blueberry tea, and I
>>will put a cool, damp cloth on your brow.'"
>>
>>Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
>I don't think so. One lesbian in all the reds we have seen does not
>imply that they are all Lesbians. They all hate men, agreed, but that
>does not a Lesbian make (at least I don't *think* so...).
I agree. I don't think he would imply that all reds are lesbians, or
that all AS lesbians are red. Sometimes, reading about the reds, I get
the distinct feeling that they don't like anyone. That some of them
might be lesbian is an interesting idea, and possibly a good thing.
Remember, red does not equal black...
If it does turn out that RJ is a bigot, I would be more than a little
stunned.
>So calm down, lay down, and don't think about Galina. I really don't
>think he is implied that they are all lesbians.
I don't think much of Randland is what it seems on the surface. All we
know for sure about the Reds is that they hate men who can channel, and
dislike all men on principle. For RJ to equate that with lesbian doesn't
seem likely.
--
-Laura Gjovaag "Your visual, olfactory, and auditory senses
Control your hunting skills and natural defenses."
from _Ode to Spot_ by Data (pt. 2 - to be continued)
Chad R Orzel
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>Ok. There's something in LoC that really bothered me. At one point,
> and I don't think anyone believed me...}
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>Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
>
would hesitate to draw conclusions about anyone else on this limited
evidence. Just as I don't think there's a basis for claiming that Red==
Black, on the basis of Liandrin, Galina, and whatshername.
As to the rest of your (now deleted) post, I _definitely_ don't think
we should attempt to draw conclusions about RJ's intent, or whether he's
a "bigoted jerk" on the basis of _one_ character, any more than we can
use the "dead nigger storage facility" line from _Pulp Fiction_ to prove
that Quentin Tarantino is a racist. It's fiction, folks.
Later,
OilCan
Delemin
I'd hate to ruin this thread, but some one asked if the Reds were all
lesbians at a signing. Jordan said no, and remostrated him for equating
lesbian with manhater.
Personaly, I have always felt that the words orgasm (with either sex) and
Red Ajah were mutualy exclusive. BtW I would say that not only are there
Bisexual Greens, but there are also Lesbian Greens. Whatever the Reds and
Whites may think, the duties of a Green are not based on MPS with as many
Warders as possible, Myrelle is considered shocking because she married
more than one of her Warders. An AS with a martial (not marital) outlook,
or one who wants to be "one of the guys" may well be drawn to the Battle
Ajah, reguardless of her sexual orientation.
TISB
Daniel Rouk
>Red Ajah (Minor LoC Spo.. by Jared S. Samet@minerva.c
>> Is RJ trying to insinuate that the Red Ajah is made up of lesbians?
Someone (Erica?) asked this question at the first Atlanta Signing.
Jordan said that he doesn't know how this idea caught on. The Red Ajah
does have women who hate men, but not all do. He went on to say that
its a bad logical jump to say that just because a woman hates men
means that she is a lesbian.
He then went on to say that he had a lesbian friend and they went out
together looking for women and made a good team that way. (Erica, do
you remember when this was? I have an idea that he ment over in Vietnam)
My impression is that RJ is not in the slightest bigotted about lesbians.
He does have theories about female vs male roles in the army though, but
that is a different topic.
Daniel L. Rouk
d...@uncecs.edu
Osan'gar
: I'd hate to ruin this thread, but some one asked if the Reds were all
: lesbians at a signing. Jordan said no, and remostrated him for equating
: lesbian with manhater.
Ruin it? On the contrary! I'm thrilled if this is correct. Nothing makes
me happier than to hear that RJ said that to someone.
: Personaly, I have always felt that the words orgasm (with either sex) and
: Red Ajah were mutualy exclusive.
ROTFL!
: BtW I would say that not only are there
: Bisexual Greens, but there are also Lesbian Greens. Whatever the Reds and
: Whites may think, the duties of a Green are not based on MPS with as many
: Warders as possible, Myrelle is considered shocking because she married
: more than one of her Warders. An AS with a martial (not marital) outlook,
: or one who wants to be "one of the guys" may well be drawn to the Battle
: Ajah, reguardless of her sexual orientation.
This is definitely a possibility. Anyway, I still think (as do most of
the people who've posted) that Galina is a lesbian. My problem was that
for various reasons, RJ seemed to be casting the Red Ajah as manhaters
(obviously) and also as lesbians. And if he was equating the 2, I'd be
annoyed. Being as he's not, that's great. I'm satisfied and that's all I
could ask to here.
--Jared "Osan'gar" Samet
P.S. Most people seem to think I overreacted. Well, I'll accept majority
opinion on this. Thank the Light.
: TISB
Jason M. Tenenbaum
MAJOR SPOILER! DO NOT PROCEED UNTIL YOU HAVE FINISHED
LORD OF CHAOS
>This is definitely a possibility. Anyway, I still think (as do most of
>the people who've posted) that Galina is a lesbian. My problem was that
>for various reasons, RJ seemed to be casting the Red Ajah as manhaters
>(obviously) and also as lesbians. And if he was equating the 2, I'd be
>annoyed. Being as he's not, that's great. I'm satisfied and that's all I
>could ask to here.
>
Funny, I thougt Gamina was Mesaana. Look at the way LTT talks about how
much he wants to kill her. Kind of similar to the way he talks about
Taim/Demandred. Also she disappears after the battle without a trace.
The only explanation I have is that she Travelled away.
Jason
Tony Zbaraschuk
Jason M. Tenenbaum <jmt...@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>
> MAJOR SPOILER! DO NOT PROCEED UNTIL YOU HAVE FINISHED
> LORD OF CHAOS
>
>Funny, I thougt Gamina was Mesaana. Look at the way LTT talks about how
>much he wants to kill her. Kind of similar to the way he talks about
>Taim/Demandred. Also she disappears after the battle without a trace.
>The only explanation I have is that she Travelled away.
LTT doesn't _need_ an AoL excuse to go after Galina. Galina has just
personally caused him (and Min, whom Rand loves) immense pain and
suffering.
Also, so far NONE of the Forsaken (if you except the possibility that
Taim=Demandred) have taken over an already well-established identity.
Instead, the standard MO appears to be to take an identity that nobody
knows anything about, and then rapidly promote it. Examples: Rahvin/
Gaebril, Sammael/Brend, Lanfear/Keille, Be'lal/Samon, Graendal/Basene.
Having to duplicate somebody that others know well (and very well, such
as Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah knowing what their leader likes and does,
minor personal habits, speech quirks, overall personality, etc.) would
be VERY dangerous (barring, of course, the possibility of "core dump" of
individual minds, but that seems not to be in favor.)
As for why Rand couldn't spot Galina:
1) The Shaido pulped her during the battle. The corpse is a mess of
fragments buried under the wall of bodies that the Asha'man built.
2) Mesaana taught her to Travel. (Unlikely; the Forsaken don't seem
much inclined to share their knowledge. But then Mesaana IS a
teacher.)
3) Mesaana taught her inverted-weave Illusion. (Again unlikely, but
perhaps more possible than the last.)
4) The Asha'man killed her during the battle. (Possible.)
5) She's in hiding somewhere (perhaps in the little grove of trees) and
hasn't been found yet. Except perhaps by a Myrdraal...
6) Taim/Demandred stole her with a gateway during the battle.
7) The raw stress of the battle, seeing Rand free and all those Asha'man
pouring in through gateways, triggered her own latent Talent for
Travelling, and she skipped out of there herself. (Raw fear might be
enough to do it, and what would the Red Ajah fear more than the
Asha'man and Rand unleashed?)
Tony Z
--
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its
swiftness. I love that which they defend, the city of the Men of Numenor."
--- Faramir, _The Two Towers_
mzap...@news.delphi.com
> Jason
I think that was because she tortured him, not because she was Forsaken
in disguise. If she were Masena (sp?) I think the Aes Sedai would
know. U can HIDE the ability to channel, but I don't think it's possible
to make people believe u can channel less than u can. Besides, we saw
some of the book from her perspective. She thought about weakining
Alviarin. If she were Forsaken, then I doubt she would have to worry
about Alviarin. Alviarin would do as she says. I think that Galina IS
a lesbian, however. Which begs the question: Is Robert Jordan
homophobic making the only lesbian BA?
halasz
Lesbians? Huh?? There is no Lesbos in Dragonland.
John Novak
>Lesbians? Huh?? There is no Lesbos in Dragonland.
Huh?
Are you claiming there are no lesbians, or that since there is no
Isle of Lesbos, the word "lesbian" is inappropriate?
Not either claim is less silly than the other.
--
John S. Novak, III Minions wanted
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu See .plan for details
mzap...@news.delphi.com
>Lesbians? Huh?? There is no Lesbos in Dragonland.
Oh did you ask them?
Hello Ma'am. Are you homosexual? No? Thank you....
You must have had alot of time on your hands, going around asking every
woman in ascience fiction book their orientation.
Aaron Bergman
(MZAP...@DELPHI.COM) wrote:
I think it was a bad pun (ie, Lesbian = from the island of Lesbos)
Aaron
Robyn Goldstein
John Novak <j...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>jsa...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Osan'gar) writes:
>>Um... The word "Lesbian" is derived from the island of Lesbos. The word
>>comes about because Sappho, a Greek poet from the island of Lesbos, wrote
>>love poetry to the girls in her school.
>This then raises the question of whether the original post merely
>pluralized the bastard-word "lesbo" or was complaining about the
>linguistic impropriety of using the word lesbian as there is no
>geographic Isle of Lesbos in Randland.
Most likely he was complaining about the linguisitics. He reprimanded me
for saying "spell-checker" rather than "spelling-checker". *sniff*
Hawk
* It is not advisable to allow Silly Putty to reach room temperature. *
Osan'gar
: In article <3adcum$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
This is halasz we're talking about here... maibe we need to reelize why
thair iz sum confuzun. ;)
--Jared "Osan'gar" Samet
What exactly happens if Silly Putty reaches room temperature?
Osan'gar
: In article <3abuj3$b...@news-feed.delphi.com>, mzap...@news.delphi.com
: (MZAP...@DELPHI.COM) wrote:
Um... The word "Lesbian" is derived from the island of Lesbos. The word
comes about because Sappho, a Greek poet from the island of Lesbos, wrote
love poetry to the girls in her school.
--Jared "Osan'gar" Samet
Aaron Bergman
(Osan'gar) wrote:
Yes. I know that. Even us Group IV majors (science for you non-yalies) do
know some of the greek stuff...
Aaron
:
:--Jared "Osan'gar" Samet
Robyn Goldstein
The amazing thing about this person is that he can and does spell
properly in e-mail. On the newsgroup, however... And I was serious
above. Even though he has no idea how to spell, he nitpicks over grammer.
>What exactly happens if Silly Putty reaches room temperature?
You don't want to know.
Hawk
***************************************************************
* Silly Putty has been proven to ward off llamas with amazing *
* effectiveness. *
***************************************************************
John Novak
>Um... The word "Lesbian" is derived from the island of Lesbos. The word
>comes about because Sappho, a Greek poet from the island of Lesbos, wrote
>love poetry to the girls in her school.
However, such is the circular nature of a language in a
degenerating society that "lesbian" is often shortened to "lesbo"
by idiots.
This then raises the question of whether the original post merely
pluralized the bastard-word "lesbo" or was complaining about the
linguistic impropriety of using the word lesbian as there is no
geographic Isle of Lesbos in Randland. (Which, as far as I'm
concerned, is silly, since the word "lesbian" is an English word,
we're discussing the books in English, and the books were
_written_ in English by a native speaker of English...)
--
John S. Novak, III Minions wanted
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu See .plan for details
The Humblest Man on the Net