Needing help to find Christmas Songs !
Lisa
I am a Christian living in a Moslem country - a Moslem country with an
anti-Christian attitude.
In this Christmas season - as in the past 3 years - I've missed the
_real_ Christmas experience a lot.
One large part of the Christmas experience - for me at least - is the
Christmas Carols - and back in the US, there is an unlimited selection
/ redention of Christmas songs.
In this Moslem country, however, the "Christmas Songs" are severely
restricted.
Officially, they do not ban Christmas, not outright. But
un-officially, the availbility of songs and activities of Christmas is
not-that-encouraged. Even when Churches want to celebrate the
Nativity, they have to apply "licenses" from the authority - all in
the name of "safety".
The result is that the Christmas celebration - even in Churches - is
somewhat subdued.
Like the Christmas songs - in the marketplace, unless I buy pirated
CDs, the "official list" of the Christmas CD is very limited. Whatever
you hear is whatever _they_ allow you to hear.
And since I'm already on the Net, I want to know if there is somewhere
I can listen to, on trial basis, to Christmas songs online, and then
decide which CD to order?
So far, the Moslem authority of this anti-Christianity country still
can't stop individuals (not that they don't want to, just that they
can't find enough resources to stop everything) from ordering CDs from
foreign sources. That means, I can still order whatever CDs I like -
including Christmas CDs.
I've gone to the CDNOW and Amazon place and I've found lots of CD
selections, I want to place some order, but I just do not know which
one to order.
If there's a sample (not necessarily the whole song) MP3, wave files,
or even streaming sound that I can download / try out, it would be a
plus for me.
Do you know any place out there having such a service?
Thank you in advance, and may you have a Very Merry Christmas and a
Very Happy New Year !
Lisa
Philip Chee
In article <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com> li...@saintmail.net writes:
>I am a Christian living in a Moslem country - a Moslem country with an
>anti-Christian attitude.
>In this Christmas season - as in the past 3 years - I've missed the
>_real_ Christmas experience a lot.
>One large part of the Christmas experience - for me at least - is the
>Christmas Carols - and back in the US, there is an unlimited selection
>/ redention of Christmas songs.
>In this Moslem country, however, the "Christmas Songs" are severely
>restricted.
And over here in this Muslim (what's "Moslem"?) country all the
shopping malls were playing christmas carols (and christmassy songs
in general) all through Adil Fitri (or Eid) which marks the end of
Ramadan.
As usual this provoked the usual outraged letters to the Times ( or
in this case _The New Straits Times_ ).
Phil (no shortage of chrismassy songs over the radio either in this
avowedly Islamic country)
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20329.11 ž Six Gigs, two monitors, and an attitude
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>[[ newsgroups truncated ]]
>
>In article <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com> li...@saintmail.net writes:
>
>>I am a Christian living in a Moslem country - a Moslem country with an
>>anti-Christian attitude.
>
>>In this Christmas season - as in the past 3 years - I've missed the
>>_real_ Christmas experience a lot.
>
>>One large part of the Christmas experience - for me at least - is the
>>Christmas Carols - and back in the US, there is an unlimited selection
>>/ redention of Christmas songs.
>
>>In this Moslem country, however, the "Christmas Songs" are severely
>>restricted.
>
>And over here in this Muslim (what's "Moslem"?) country all the
>shopping malls were playing christmas carols (and christmassy songs
>in general) all through Adil Fitri (or Eid) which marks the end of
>Ramadan.
>
>As usual this provoked the usual outraged letters to the Times ( or
>in this case _The New Straits Times_ ).
>
>Phil (no shortage of chrismassy songs over the radio either in this
>avowedly Islamic country)
>
Is it Islamic in the sense of the people being predominantly so, or in
the sense of having a state religion?
I was a little taken aback by the original post, too, though: I was
wondering exactly which country was as grimly protective of their
culture as that.
Lucy Kemnitzer
gfa...@savvy.com
Lucy Kemnitzer <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
[. . .]
> I was a little taken aback by the original post, too, though: I was
> wondering exactly which country was as grimly protective of their
> culture as that.
It didn't happen to be the case in this instance, but I take it you are
unfamiliar with Saudi Arabia. (If you should find yourself applying for a
visa, I suggest you not mention your ethnic background.)
--
Gary Farber Boulder, Colorado
gfa...@savvy.com
Lucy Kemnitzer
>In article <3c23bd58...@cnews.newsguy.com>
>Lucy Kemnitzer <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>> I was a little taken aback by the original post, too, though: I was
>> wondering exactly which country was as grimly protective of their
>> culture as that.
>
>It didn't happen to be the case in this instance, but I take it you are
>unfamiliar with Saudi Arabia. (If you should find yourself applying for a
>visa, I suggest you not mention your ethnic background.)
No, I know about Saudi Arabia, and about Afghanistan, but there was
something about the post that made it seem like these were not the
countries in question. If it had been Saudi Arabia, maybe, the thing
about the newsgroups would have been different, and if it had been
Afghanistan, there would have been worse details forthcoming.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Gwen & Emory Stagmer
From noon EST christmas eve to midnight Christmas day
WRBS radio will have great traditional christmas music with no commercials.
http://www.wrbs.com
They have streaming audio.
No I don't work for them, just supporting my ONLY Christian music radio in
Baltimore...
Emory
MIDIcian
> shopping malls were playing christmas carols (and christmassy songs
> in general) all through Adil Fitri (or Eid) which marks the end of
> Ramadan.
You should see what it's like for a Jew living in America (which is supposed
to have separation of Church and State.)
Guess what. The Muslims and the Jews might have alot more in common than
you think.
Stan,
www.thesequencers.com
"Come together, right now
Over me" - The Beatles
rafrost
You might enjoy
www.audiogalaxy.com
for full downloads of songs if you know their performers and titles. You
might also like
www.christianbook.com
they often have samples of every song on a project for you to hear.
Another resource you could try to read more about projects and what they
sound like is
www.cmcentral.net
Robin
"Lisa" <li...@saintmail.net> wrote in message
news:266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com...
Gwen & Emory Stagmer
SEPERATION is NOT in our constitution. All it says it
(basically) that the state should not make any laws giving privledge to
or restricting ANY religion.
Get it right or don't post it.
Emory Stagmer
Philip Chee
>On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:04:26 GMT, phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee)
>wrote:
>>Phil (no shortage of chrismassy songs over the radio either in this
>>avowedly Islamic country)
>Is it Islamic in the sense of the people being predominantly so, or in
>the sense of having a state religion?
Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
Islam is also the official state religion.
The constitution is however secular.
Currently there is a heated political debate going on on whether
Malaysia is an "Islamic State" or not.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20355.22 ž "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color."
Philip Chee
Ditto I initially thought that the poster was in Saudi Arabia but
like Lucy I thought there was something out of kilter with that post
and looked at the NNTP-Posting host and found that "she" was posting
from Malaysia.
Now not everything is wonderful in Malaysia with regards to freedom
of religion[1], but what she said was totally incorrect.
[1] Currently the Catholic Church is taking the Selangor State
government to court over it's refusal to issue a planning permission
to the church to build a community centre.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20363.55 ž Smile... people will wonder what you've been up to.
Mitch Wagner
news:3c241...@news.newzpig.com:
>> And over here in this Muslim (what's "Moslem"?) country all the
>> shopping malls were playing christmas carols (and christmassy songs
>> in general) all through Adil Fitri (or Eid) which marks the end of
>> Ramadan.
>
> You should see what it's like for a Jew living in America (which is
> supposed to have separation of Church and State.)
>
> Guess what. The Muslims and the Jews might have alot more in common
> than you think.
I've spent my whole life, 40 years, as a Jew in America, and I'm grateful
to be here. Are you suggesting it's BAD to be a Jew in America?
--
Mitch Wagner | 24-hour drive-thru weblog: http://www.drive-thru.org
Joel Rosenberg
> In article <3c23bd58...@cnews.newsguy.com> rit...@cruzio.com writes:
> >On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:04:26 GMT, phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee)
> >wrote:
>
> >>Phil (no shortage of chrismassy songs over the radio either in this
> >>avowedly Islamic country)
>
> >Is it Islamic in the sense of the people being predominantly so, or in
> >the sense of having a state religion?
>
> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
> Islam is also the official state religion.
> The constitution is however secular.
Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
the official state religion?
--
-------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun,
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
-------------------------------------
Lisa
There are 58 countries listed in the OIC (Organization of Islamic
Countries) and the member states are more than Saudi Arabia or
Afghanistan.
Some of those Moslem countries may portray themselves as "liberal",
but try to hang a BIG CROSS in your front lawn and you will know how
"liberal" these Moslem really are.
I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country because I'm
married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks G*d, is a Christian
! - and I must tell you that the experience with those "liberal
Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
They (the Moslems) will say one thing - like allowing "freedom of
religion" but then all over the place they keep blaring their
"prayers" over LOUD SPEAKERS, sounding like donkey braying. They keep
the noise pollution index high up to the sky as if their G*d (Allah)
is deaf, or something.
But I am NOT here to criticize the Moslems' religion. Just that I do
not like the way they OPPRESS against people of other religion.
If you try to build a church here, you have to get permission from the
- guess what? - MOSLEM COUNCIL - yes, I kid you not. To get a
CHRISTIAN CHURCH going, you have to have the approval from the Moslems
!
As if the Lord Almighty must have the permission from "Allah"
everytime the Almighty wants to do something !
This is the _reality_ here. Whether you believe it or not.
Sorry for this off-topic message.
Wishing you a Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year !
Lisa
rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) wrote in message news:<3c23bd58...@cnews.newsguy.com>...
Ed Dravecky III
> I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country
> because I'm married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks
> with those "liberal Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
Oh no. Why oh why couldn't you have been Canadian for once?
> They (the Moslems) will say one thing - like allowing "freedom
> of religion" but then all over the place they keep blaring
> their "prayers" over LOUD SPEAKERS, sounding like donkey
> braying. They keep the noise pollution index high up to the sky
> as if their G*d (Allah) is deaf, or something.
>
> But I am NOT here to criticize the Moslems' religion. Just that I do
> not like the way they OPPRESS against people of other religion.
Yes, thank goodness that no person of a non-Christian faith (or
even of the many various Christian faiths) has ever been oppressed
in any way in the USA. Our record is spotless and that's why we
feel free to throw stones inside this lovely glass house.
> If you try to build a church here, you have to get permission
> - from the guess what? - MOSLEM COUNCIL - yes, I kid you not. To
> get a CHRISTIAN CHURCH going, you have to have the approval from
> the Moslems!
If you try to build a church in Dallas, you have to get permission
from the CITY COUNCIL (and the Planning Commission and a dozen
other agencies of the city and county). To get a church or almost
any other structure built, you have to have the approval of the city!
> As if the Lord Almighty must have the permission from "Allah"
> everytime the Almighty wants to do something !
Are you sure you wouldn't like to be Canadian? They have a nice
healthcare system and it's clean and stuff. No? Okay...
(A warning to RASFFerians to turn down the volume on their
monitors while I yell at Lisa for a moment. Thank you.)
LISA: CHRISTIANS, MOSLEMS, AND JEWS ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD. WE
MAY USE DIFFERENT NAMES FOR HIM BUT HE IS THE SAME GOD. ALLAH IS
GOD. YAHWEH IS GOD. OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN IS GOD. GOD IS
ALLAH. WE ARE ALL, as Islam says, PEOPLE OF THE BOOK.
(You may resume normal reading volumes. Again, thank you.)
> This is the _reality_ here. Whether you believe it or not.
> Sorry for this off-topic message.
> Wishing you a Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year !
Yeah, pardon me while I close the dimensional rift between rasff
and rec.music.dementia (among so many others). Happy holidays.
--
Ed Dravecky III
ed3 at panix.com
Alison Hopkins
Lisa wrote in message <266b67ef.0112...@posting.google.com>...
>On this Christmas season, oh please do not be so taken aback.
>
>There are 58 countries listed in the OIC (Organization of Islamic
>Countries) and the member states are more than Saudi Arabia or
>Afghanistan.
>
>Some of those Moslem countries may portray themselves as "liberal",
>but try to hang a BIG CROSS in your front lawn and you will know how
>"liberal" these Moslem really are.
The US isn't too keen on those always.
>
>I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country because I'm
>married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks G*d, is a Christian
>! - and I must tell you that the experience with those "liberal
>Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
So go home and stop taking their money.
>
>They (the Moslems) will say one thing - like allowing "freedom of
>religion" but then all over the place they keep blaring their
>"prayers" over LOUD SPEAKERS, sounding like donkey braying. They keep
>the noise pollution index high up to the sky as if their G*d (Allah)
>is deaf, or something.
Church bells are pretty intrusive, too.
>
>But I am NOT here to criticize the Moslems' religion. Just that I do
>not like the way they OPPRESS against people of other religion.
>
>If you try to build a church here, you have to get permission from the
>- guess what? - MOSLEM COUNCIL - yes, I kid you not. To get a
>CHRISTIAN CHURCH going, you have to have the approval from the Moslems
To build anything here you have to get permission from someone. Your poitn?
>!
>
>As if the Lord Almighty must have the permission from "Allah"
>everytime the Almighty wants to do something !
>
>This is the _reality_ here. Whether you believe it or not.
>
>Sorry for this off-topic message.
>
>Wishing you a Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year !
>
>
You are the lousiest advertisement for Christianity I've seen in years. And
I should not feed nasty minded racist little trolls.
Ali
Nancy Lebovitz
Lisa <li...@saintmail.net> wrote:
>On this Christmas season, oh please do not be so taken aback.
>
>There are 58 countries listed in the OIC (Organization of Islamic
>Countries) and the member states are more than Saudi Arabia or
>Afghanistan.
Could you please mention *which* Moslem country you're talking
about? As it is, you're making an accusation that vaguely accretes
to any of them.
>
>Some of those Moslem countries may portray themselves as "liberal",
>but try to hang a BIG CROSS in your front lawn and you will know how
>"liberal" these Moslem really are.
>
>I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country because I'm
>married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks G*d, is a Christian
>! - and I must tell you that the experience with those "liberal
>Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
>
>They (the Moslems) will say one thing - like allowing "freedom of
>religion" but then all over the place they keep blaring their
>"prayers" over LOUD SPEAKERS, sounding like donkey braying. They keep
>the noise pollution index high up to the sky as if their G*d (Allah)
>is deaf, or something.
>
>But I am NOT here to criticize the Moslems' religion. Just that I do
Sounds like you just did.
>not like the way they OPPRESS against people of other religion.
>
>If you try to build a church here, you have to get permission from the
>- guess what? - MOSLEM COUNCIL - yes, I kid you not. To get a
>CHRISTIAN CHURCH going, you have to have the approval from the Moslems
>!
How hard is it to get permission?
>As if the Lord Almighty must have the permission from "Allah"
>everytime the Almighty wants to do something !
People building a church isn't the same thing as the Lord acting
directly. Unless the Lord supplies parking and utilities, the
city government has an interest in the matter.
>This is the _reality_ here. Whether you believe it or not.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Vicki Rosenzweig
>But I am NOT here to criticize the Moslems' religion. Just that I do
>not like the way they OPPRESS against people of other religion.
Then DON'T. Insulting Allah and insinuating that Moslem prayers aren't
real prayers is criticism, to put it kindly.
Oh, and "oppress" doesn't take "against."
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Philip Chee
>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>> Islam is also the official state religion.
>> The constitution is however secular.
>Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>the official state religion?
? I don't see any contradiction ?
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20350.49 ž New religion? I haven't used up the old one, yet!
Philip Chee
In article <a04h6v$d...@netaxs.com> na...@unix1.netaxs.com writes:
>In article <266b67ef.0112...@posting.google.com>,
>Lisa <li...@saintmail.net> wrote:
>Could you please mention *which* Moslem country you're talking
>about? As it is, you're making an accusation that vaguely accretes
>to any of them.
She's posting from Malaysia, which is why I broke my rule against
responding to trolls. See other thread about "Christian Songs"
Phil bad. No biscuit for Phil.
>>If you try to build a church here, you have to get permission from the
>>- guess what? - MOSLEM COUNCIL - yes, I kid you not. To get a
>>CHRISTIAN CHURCH going, you have to have the approval from the Moslems
>How hard is it to get permission?
Difficult, but not impossible. Discrimination exists, not as an
instrument of state policy but in the form of petty officialdom.
Also politicians like to play the religion card especially close to
election time. The reality is much much more complicated than "Lisa"
protrays.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20372.16 ž I'm only paranoid because everyone's against me.
Philip Chee
>"MIDIcian" <midi...@netzero.net> wrote in
>news:3c241...@news.newzpig.com:
>> You should see what it's like for a Jew living in America (which is
>> supposed to have separation of Church and State.)
>> Guess what. The Muslims and the Jews might have alot more in common
>> than you think.
>I've spent my whole life, 40 years, as a Jew in America, and I'm grateful
>to be here. Are you suggesting it's BAD to be a Jew in America?
Hey Mitch,
Don't you remember the "Happy Hannukah" flame war that ate this
newsgroup[1] several christmasses ago?
Phil
[1] rasff, for those of you caught in the cross-post[2] crossfire.
[2] I can't decide where to point the followup to. Obviously not
rec.music.christian. Hmm only one non music newsgroup here.
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20332.16 ž We're all bozos on this bus.
gfa...@savvy.com
> In article <m21yhmr...@msp-65-25-234-54.mn.rr.com>
> jo...@ellegon.com writes:
>>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>>> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>>> Islam is also the official state religion.
>>> The constitution is however secular.
>>Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>>the official state religion?
> ? I don't see any contradiction ?
It depends what the meaning of "is" is.
mike weber
typed
>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>> Islam is also the official state religion.
>> The constitution is however secular.
>
>Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>the official state religion?
How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
--
"...no use looking for the answers when the questions are in
doubt..."
"The Love of My Life" by F.LeBlanc (Cowboy Mouth)
<mike weber> <kras...@mindspring.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Lisa
> In article <266b67ef.0112...@posting.google.com>,
> Lisa <li...@saintmail.net> wrote:
> >On this Christmas season, oh please do not be so taken aback.
> >
> >There are 58 countries listed in the OIC (Organization of Islamic
> >Countries) and the member states are more than Saudi Arabia or
> >Afghanistan.
>
> Could you please mention *which* Moslem country you're talking
> about? As it is, you're making an accusation that vaguely accretes
> to any of them.
> >
> >Some of those Moslem countries may portray themselves as "liberal",
> >but try to hang a BIG CROSS in your front lawn and you will know how
> >"liberal" these Moslem really are.
> >
> >I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country because I'm
> >married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks G*d, is a Christian
> >! - and I must tell you that the experience with those "liberal
> >Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
> >
> >They (the Moslems) will say one thing - like allowing "freedom of
> >religion" but then all over the place they keep blaring their
> >"prayers" over LOUD SPEAKERS, sounding like donkey braying. They keep
> >the noise pollution index high up to the sky as if their G*d (Allah)
> >is deaf, or something.
> >
> >But I am NOT here to criticize the Moslems' religion. Just that I do
>
> Sounds like you just did.
I just did, didn't I?
I admit I'm hot-headed sometimes, but what I've said here have
happened !
That Phil guy who has accused me of lying - well... the Good Lord
knows who is lying.
I don't need to start a flamewar here, especially not in newsgroups
that have nothing to do with flamewar. If that Phil guy wants a
flamewar, he can flame someone else, somewhere else. All I know is,
the Good Lord knows what all of us are doing, and I know I am a
sinner, and the only thing I hope is that the Good Lord will see that
all I do here is to tell the world the pathetic condition some
Christians have to go through in order to keep their faith.
>
> >not like the way they OPPRESS against people of other religion.
> >
> >If you try to build a church here, you have to get permission from the
> >- guess what? - MOSLEM COUNCIL - yes, I kid you not. To get a
> >CHRISTIAN CHURCH going, you have to have the approval from the Moslems
> >!
>
> How hard is it to get permission?
Well... Let me tell you that there _ARE_ "churches" here that has NO
cross what-so-ever, because the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM will NOT allow them
to operate if they have even _ONE_ single cross (either display or
painted on walls) in the premise.
And then there are "churches" that can't even call themselves
"church", because again, the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM will not allow the
formation of the "church" if they use the word "church" (or the local
translation of the word "church").
It's hard, I tell you. It's kinda like having to ask the SATAN to
grant you the permission to PRAY to the Good Lord.
Sometimes people just ignore the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM and organize
prayer groups in their own houses, and by doing that, they take the
risk of being CAUGHT by the Moslem authority for "illegal gathering"
or "subversive organization".
There once was a "rural retreat" for one church. They had a property
somewhere in the hills, and they were minding their own business.
Those Christians were doing their own things for years without
disturbing anybody else, and of course, they did that without
REGISTRING with (and/or obtaining permission from) the MOSLEM
OFFICIALDOM.
And ONCE the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM found out about the existence of the
"retreat", they launched a DIRTY CAMPAIGN against the retreat.
Do you know what those MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM did?
They call up the media and spread rumors about a "cult" that do
"subversive" and "unethical" things. They hinted that those "cultists"
were "raping girls" or "sodomizing each others", etc., etc., and of
course, the press went into a frenzy, and printed out headlines after
headlines of those "cultists".
And after that, the "interial ministry" of the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM
stepped in, and RAIDED the compound of the retreat. Several "cultists"
were captured, and were thrown into prison WITHOUT TRIALS.
Some of them are STILL IN PRISON without trials, even as we speak.
If that Phil guy is so proud of what they have done for the Christian
here in this G*d Awful Moslem Country, why then the Phil Guy never do
anything for those Christians (oh, I slipped my tongue, those
"cultists") who are still imprisoned, without trials?
The "head moslem" here is a supporter of Osama Bin Laden. At his
speech the other night, announcing the "New Year" for the Moslems, he
hinted that all the non-Moslems are "enemies".
This is the reality here in this G*d Awful country.
That Phil Guy has hinted that this country being a "third world
country" so it can't afford all the "luxuries" of the "first world
country". I just want to know if the "luxuries" include the FREEDOM
for non-Moslems to practice their own faith?
Using the excuse of "third world country" to commit crimes is just
that, an excuse. No matter you are in first world country or fourth, a
crime is STILL a crime. No excuse, no matter how ridiculous it may be,
can use to cover-up a crime.
What happening in this G*d Awful Moslem Country is criminal, and they
are increasing at an alarming rate.
When the non-Moslem kills a Moslem, it's all over the news.
But when Moslems burn down churches - yes, it happens here ! - the
press (officially controlled) never mentions it.
When the foreign press got hold of the news of church burnings, they
asked the "Moslem authority" about it, and the reply is that "it's a
non-issue".
Yes, it's a "non-issue" when churches are burnt down. It's always
"non-issue" when the crime was perpetrated agains the non-Moslems.
That's the reality here.
Let me emphasize again, I am NOT here to flame anyone. All I say is
just what is HAPPENING in this Moslem country.
Nothing more, nothing less.
So for all of you who are NOT suffering from oppression - Be Glad that
you still have your FREEDOM to practice your faith - whatever your
religious faith may be.
To all,
Wishing you a Very Merry Christmas, and a Very Happy New Year !
God Bless !!
Lisa
thesequencers
news:100913095...@aleytys.pc.my...
> >I've spent my whole life, 40 years, as a Jew in America, and I'm grateful
> >to be here. Are you suggesting it's BAD to be a Jew in America?
It's better than being a Jew in Israel! So why did you cut the crosspost
addressing. Chicken?
Stan Rosenthal,
www.insertFrom:here.com
Joel Rosenberg
> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:20:36 GMT, Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com>
> typed
>
> >phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>
> >> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
> >> Islam is also the official state religion.
> >> The constitution is however secular.
> >
> >Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
> >the official state religion?
>
> How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
> --
Mythical, ephemeral, nonexistent . . . you know, the obvious.
thesequencers
> knows who is lying.
>
> I don't need to start a flamewar here, especially not in newsgroups
> that have nothing to do with flamewar.
There's no such thing, IMHO. Oh BTW: I also believe there's no such thing
as a God. I could be wrong, of course!
Stan
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>In article <3c23df3b...@cnews.newsguy.com> rit...@cruzio.com writes:
And I thoroughly agree with people complaining about restrictions to
their freedom of religion and expression, but I hate it when people
distort things just for effect: the truth is bad enough, usually.
Lucy Kemnitzer
James Nicoll
Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
snip Ugly American Parody Alison is responding to.
>Church bells are pretty intrusive, too.
>
I'd have to say speaking as a guy with five churches within
a block of me that there are worse ways to wake up on a Sunday. Also,
for about two months of the year, the sun sets on the far side of St.
Paul's and lights up the stained glass windows. Very cool.
James Nicoll
--
"Don't worry. It's just a bunch of crazies who believe in only one
god. They're just this far away from atheism."
Wayne & Schuster
James Nicoll
Ed Dravecky III <e...@panix.com> wrote:
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom Lisa <li...@saintmail.net> wrote:
>> I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country
>> because I'm married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks
>> G*d, is a Christian! - and I must tell you that the experience
>> with those "liberal Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
>
>Oh no. Why oh why couldn't you have been Canadian for once?
>
is more of an American thing, not some thing a Canadian would
go in for. This modesty is why Canada is the greatest nation
to ever exist in any universe.
Plus, we have poutine and maple syrup.
mike weber
typed
>kras...@mindspring.com (mike weber) writes:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:20:36 GMT, Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com>
>> typed
>>
>> >phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>>
>> >> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>> >> Islam is also the official state religion.
>> >> The constitution is however secular.
>> >
>> >Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>> >the official state religion?
>>
>> How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
>> --
>
>Mythical, ephemeral, nonexistent . . . you know, the obvious.
>
Okay -- is GB or is it not a secular state?
Robert Sneddon
(in message <3c26cdf...@news.alltel.net>):
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 05:02:24 GMT, Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com>
> typed
>
>> kras...@mindspring.com (mike weber) writes:
>>
>>>
>>> How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
>>> --
>>
>> Mythical, ephemeral, nonexistent . . . you know, the obvious.
>>
> Okay -- is GB or is it not a secular state?
>
Yes, no and maybe. England has an established church, source of the
word "antidisestablishmentarianism". Liz Windsor aka HM The Queen
Godbless'er is the Head of said Church, the Church of England, but
that's England for you. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the full-time
CEO of the business.
In Scotland, there are several official churches, but none of them are
established. Liz, on her occasional peregrinations north of Watford
sometimes attends the Synods of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland,
but only in a very unofficial capacity. Norn Ireland is full of people
who divide themselves on the basis of religion, but who would best be
described as militant athiests, as they lack any aspects of Christian
charity. The Welsh are all Methodists, and damned with it, but the
choirs are wonderful. People from the Channel Islands worship Mammon in
the main, except for Tobes whose Muse is Dionysus.
The Great Thing about having an established church is that, being
Government run, it is ineffective and mostly ignored in day to day
life. The Archbish's occasional pronouncements on national morality and
such can be safely ridiculed as the outpourings of a dotty old codger,
and he carries zero political clout.
--
Robert Sneddon
==============================================================
Posted with Hogwasher. Mac first, Mac only:
http://www.asar.com/cgi-bin/product.pl?58/hogwasher.html
==============================================================
Lisa
True. Everybody could be wrong for everything.
But that still doesn't mean we should NOT recognize that once upon a
time, there was _someone_ living in Israel who did something that is
so out of the ordinary that people actually recorded what he did, what
he said, and so on, and append the stories to the Old Testaments.
And from then onwards, people who happened to agree with the
philosophy of that ancient guy from Israel need to celebrate his
*birthday* so they chose the 25th of December as HIS birthday, since
there isn't any credible record of the guy's REAL birthday.
And that "birthday celebration" has turned into CHRISTMAS.
Whether we like it or not, t'is the night before Christmas, and I am
NOT here to start or continue or pour gas into a flamewar. I've gotta
tell two more things about that G*d Awful Moslem Country -
1. The G*d Awful Moslem Country is one of the _FEW_ nation, worldwide,
to BAN the CARTOON MOVIE - "THE PRINCE OF EGYPT".
Yes, I kid you not.
The MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM saw that it was NECESSARY TO BAN A CARTOON
MOVIE depicting the story of Moses.
They are _SO_ afraid of Moses (it's funny, tho, since MOSES has been
recognized by the MOSLEM RELIGION - Islam - as one of the prophet !)
they even BANNED A CARTOON MOVIE based on Moses' life story .... how
Moses brought the Jews out of Egypt.
This is the G*d Awful Moslem Country I am talking about.
Another example of how AWFUL this G*d Awful Moslem Country really is -
They - the MOSEM OFFICIALDOM - has see it fit to SEGREGATE the
SCHOOL-CHILDREN by RELIGION.
That is, if the child is a non-Moslem, then the child has NO RIGHT to
study at ADVANCE CLASSES - that is, only MOSLEM STUDENTS are permitted
to study in ADVANCE CLASSES !
The real matter is, the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM has see it fit to
DISCRIMINATE AGAINST the non-Moslems, even when they are MERE CHILDREN
!!
This is the _same_ "paradise" the Phil Guy wants you to believe.
I call the country "G*d Awful Moslem Country" and the Phil Guy has
painted it so PURE AND GENTLE, it feels like Johnson Baby Powder.
Maybe the truth is NOT one way or the other. Maybe the truth is
somewhere in between. But where-ever the truth lies, you just have to
live in this G*d Awful Moslem Country to EXPERIENCE the AWFULNESS of
the whole thing.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !
Lisa
Alison Hopkins
Lisa wrote in message <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>...
A right load of dog's bollocks.
I am astonished that anyone can be as self righteously racist and offensive,
whilst still continuing to be a guest in someone else's country. I try to
resist replying to nasty vicious little trolls, but this is way off.
Lisa, if you don't like it, then naff off back to whence you came, and stop
insulting the people who are presumably employing your poor spouse. For whom
I feel the utmost sympathy.
Ali
Diane
wrote:
>
> Plus, we have poutine and maple syrup.
Occasionally at the same time.
--------------------------------------------------------
See the internet's newest toon at http://www.ronanddave.com/
Vicki Rosenzweig
-0000:
What Ali said.
Speaking as a proud American: please, come home.
We do not need resentful trouble-makers representing us abroad.
Come home, and listen to your Christmas music in peace.
James Nicoll
Gwen & Emory Stagmer <emor...@home.com> wrote:
>Just a moment there Stan.
>
>SEPERATION is NOT in our constitution. All it says it
>(basically) that the state should not make any laws giving privledge to
>or restricting ANY religion.
I have to use this in shwi: the results of religions being immune
from, oh, zoning laws and such. After all, there're restrictions.
James Nicoll
Lisa <li...@saintmail.net> wrote:
>
>But that still doesn't mean we should NOT recognize that once upon a
>time, there was _someone_ living in Israel who did something that is
>so out of the ordinary that people actually recorded what he did, what
>he said, and so on, and append the stories to the Old Testaments.
The following is not an attack on Christianity:
I'll granted the existance of the writers of the four gospels
as a probable historical fact but Christ the man doese't seem to have
stood out on his own amidst all the other rable rousers of that era.
Aside from Josephus, do any of the records of the time mention
this Christ? Parts of the Gospels are difficult to reconcile with
historical fact (eg: that tax census thing, which wasn't Roman practice
but which does fulfil a requirement of a prophecy and the whole Herod
thing, which you'd think the Romans would have noted).
>And from then onwards, people who happened to agree with the
>philosophy of that ancient guy from Israel need to celebrate his
>*birthday* so they chose the 25th of December as HIS birthday, since
>there isn't any credible record of the guy's REAL birthday.
Need to celebrate?
Hmmm. This would seem to argue that a lot of gods are getting
short-changed. Where's the Buddha's birthday (I suppose he got a day
when he was St. Jehosephat)? Where are the birthdays for the Hindu
gods? Given the financial importance of Christmas, I think the retail
sector is missing a trick here: a godly birthday every day all year!
I thought Easter was the important day in Christ's life. The whole
dying for our sins and rising from the death thing, which is much rarer than
just getting born. I know loads of people who got born and few who rose
from the dead and none of them did it for other people's sins.
James Nicoll
Kip Williams
>
> Quoth "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com> on Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:19:45
> -0000:
>
> >
> >Lisa wrote in message <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> >A right load of dog's bollocks.
> >
> >I am astonished that anyone can be as self righteously racist and offensive,
> >whilst still continuing to be a guest in someone else's country. I try to
> >resist replying to nasty vicious little trolls, but this is way off.
> >
> >Lisa, if you don't like it, then naff off back to whence you came, and stop
> >insulting the people who are presumably employing your poor spouse. For whom
> >I feel the utmost sympathy.
>
> What Ali said.
>
> Speaking as a proud American: please, come home.
>
> We do not need resentful trouble-makers representing us abroad.
>
> Come home, and listen to your Christmas music in peace.
I haven't really been on Lisa's side in this, but it looks to me
like she really, really wants to come back home, and can't. This
does actually give me a certain degree of sympathy, regardless of
what I've thought of her previous posts.
So, what the heck. I have put some of the Christmas carols I
recorded a few years back up on my web page. Just go to the bottom
of my 'music' page, and there they are.
They're all short -- less than a minute each -- but if things are
really so bad that you can't find these anywhere else, have a little
holiday cheer on me. Just don't turn music critic, that's all I ask.
I haven't provided lyrics to these, but everybody should know them,
except maybe "Rise Up, Shepherd" (and everybody -should- know that,
for a different shade of meaning).
I'm sure there are lots more carols online, in MIDI format, but I
generally play my own, so I've never sought them out. I suggest
searching on Google for one of them by name ("hark herald angels
midi," for instance) and seeing if there are others with it.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at http://members.home.net/kipw/
"I'm not sure everybody in America is laughing at that."
--Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-WA) responding to Jolly John Ashcroft
James Nicoll
Diane <dla...@no.spam.here.uwo.ca> wrote:
>On 24 Dec 2001 01:10:31 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Plus, we have poutine and maple syrup.
>
>Occasionally at the same time.
Which is why from time to time our diabetics explode.
James Nicoll
Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com> wrote:
>kras...@mindspring.com (mike weber) writes:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:20:36 GMT, Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com>
>> typed
>>
>> >phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>>
>> >> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>> >> Islam is also the official state religion.
>> >> The constitution is however secular.
>> >
>> >Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>> >the official state religion?
>>
>> How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
>> --
>
>Mythical, ephemeral, nonexistent . . . you know, the obvious.
>
on the throne and see what happens.
It's just not written down in one place.
James Nicoll
Philip Chee
>On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:12:26 GMT, phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee)
>wrote:
>>[1] Currently the Catholic Church is taking the Selangor State
>>government to court over it's refusal to issue a planning permission
>>to the church to build a community centre.
>And I thoroughly agree with people complaining about restrictions to
>their freedom of religion and expression, but I hate it when people
>distort things just for effect: the truth is bad enough, usually.
Sigh. I really shouldn't respond to that troll, but she isn't just
distorting, she's actively talking porkies.
D'ya think I should point out the latest untruths or just ignore the
troll?
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20478.82 ž Why do those that pay the least complain the most?
Philip Chee
>On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:20:36 GMT, Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com>
>typed
>>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>>> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>>> Islam is also the official state religion.
>>> The constitution is however secular.
>>Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>>the official state religion?
>How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
Unwritten.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20455.49 ž "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color."
Philip Chee
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=266b67ef.0112...@posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com
In article <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com> li...@saintmail.net writes:
>1. The G*d Awful Moslem Country is one of the _FEW_ nation, worldwide,
>to BAN the CARTOON MOVIE - "THE PRINCE OF EGYPT".
Yup. This part is true. But this is also the country that tried to
ban the "Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers" on the grounds that the word
"Morphin'" might encourage impressionable youths to take up a heroin
habit. I think our erstwhile Information Minister is just generally
clueless.
>They - the MOSEM OFFICIALDOM - has see it fit to SEGREGATE the
>SCHOOL-CHILDREN by RELIGION.
Totally untrue. When I was in school I had christian, muslim,
buddhist and hindu classmates.
>That is, if the child is a non-Moslem, then the child has NO RIGHT to
>study at ADVANCE CLASSES - that is, only MOSLEM STUDENTS are permitted
>to study in ADVANCE CLASSES !
There are no such things here as "ADVANCE CLASSES". Are you sure
you are an American? Your grasp of english is singularly fractured,
almost as if it isn't actually your native language.
And I was in the fast-track academic stream (if that was what you
were refering to) and skipped a couple of grades on my way up.
There are *racial* quotas at the university level, which have over
the years garnered controversy (sometimes more, sometimes less
depending on the political situation). However that's an entirely
different issue from religion.
>The real matter is, the MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM has see it fit to
>DISCRIMINATE AGAINST the non-Moslems, even when they are MERE CHILDREN
>!!
So why are you still here? Isn't the future of your children at
stake in this pagan land? Why aren't you insisting to your husband
that you and your family should immediately move back to the US
where your children can be gauranteed a proper christian upbringing?
>I call the country "G*d Awful Moslem Country" and the Phil Guy has
>painted it so PURE AND GENTLE, it feels like Johnson Baby Powder.
And what's wrong with Johnson's Baby Powder? Millions of babies
can't be wrong, can they?
>Maybe the truth is NOT one way or the other. Maybe the truth is
>somewhere in between. But where-ever the truth lies, you just have to
>live in this G*d Awful Moslem Country to EXPERIENCE the AWFULNESS of
>the whole thing.
Awww. Poor, baby. Why don't you go and watch some Oprah, it might
cheer you up.
>Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !
You forgot Hannukah, Deevali, Saturnalia and the Winter Solstice
festival. HTH, HAND.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ş 20422.99 ş Usenet is the antidote for information.
Ken MacLeod
<kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:20:36 GMT, Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com>
>typed
>
>>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>
>>> Malaysia is Islamic in the sense of the people predominantly so.
>>> Islam is also the official state religion.
>>> The constitution is however secular.
>>
>>Okay, I'm confused. If the constitution is secular, how can Islam be
>>the official state religion?
>
>How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
Protestant.
--
Ken MacLeod
Alison Hopkins
Philip Chee wrote in message <100920517...@aleytys.pc.my>...
>In article <3c26ba9a...@cnews.newsguy.com> rit...@cruzio.com writes:
>>On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:12:26 GMT, phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee)
>>wrote:
>
>>>[1] Currently the Catholic Church is taking the Selangor State
>>>government to court over it's refusal to issue a planning permission
>>>to the church to build a community centre.
>
>>And I thoroughly agree with people complaining about restrictions to
>>their freedom of religion and expression, but I hate it when people
>>distort things just for effect: the truth is bad enough, usually.
>
>Sigh. I really shouldn't respond to that troll, but she isn't just
>distorting, she's actively talking porkies.
>
>D'ya think I should point out the latest untruths or just ignore the
>troll?
>
You can reply to *us*, dear, and ignore her. :) :)
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Philip Chee wrote in message <100920663...@aleytys.pc.my>...
>[[ note follow-ups ]]
I did. :)
>Yup. This part is true. But this is also the country that tried to
>ban the "Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers" on the grounds that the word
>"Morphin'" might encourage impressionable youths to take up a heroin
>habit. I think our erstwhile Information Minister is just generally
>clueless.
<splutter> I love that. Honestly? He did?
Ali
Robert Sneddon
(in message <3c275924$0$8514$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>):
Hey, our old BBFC head banned the word "Ninja", so we got Teenage
Mutant Hero Turtles. He also had a thing about nunchucks, so some
chop-suey HK flicks got cut to incomprehensibility (or greater
incomprehensibility, perhaps). "Enter the Dragon" is but one example.
Bernard Peek
<li...@saintmail.net> writes
>"thesequencers" <midi...@netzero.net> wrote in message
>news:<a03c6a1789b5153e...@spamfreenews.com>...
>> "Lisa" <li...@saintmail.net> wrote in message
>> news:266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com...
>> > That Phil guy who has accused me of lying - well... the Good Lord
>> > knows who is lying.
And those of us that know Phil also know.
>Another example of how AWFUL this G*d Awful Moslem Country really is -
>
>
>They - the MOSEM OFFICIALDOM - has see it fit to SEGREGATE the
>SCHOOL-CHILDREN by RELIGION.
We do that here in the UK too. I went to a Catholic school.
And a merry Christmas and prosperous new year to all of our readers,
wherever they may be.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
In search of cognoscenti
Mitch Wagner
news:100913095...@aleytys.pc.my:
> In article <a9aV7.97549$Sx.26...@news1.elcjn1.sdca.home.c
> mwa...@world.std.com writes:
>>"MIDIcian" <midi...@netzero.net> wrote in
>>news:3c241...@news.newzpig.com:
>
>>> You should see what it's like for a Jew living in America (which is
>>> supposed to have separation of Church and State.)
>
>>> Guess what. The Muslims and the Jews might have alot more in common
>>> than you think.
>
>>I've spent my whole life, 40 years, as a Jew in America, and I'm
>>grateful to be here. Are you suggesting it's BAD to be a Jew in
>>America?
>
> Hey Mitch,
>
> Don't you remember the "Happy Hannukah" flame war that ate this
> newsgroup[1] several christmasses ago?
Vaguely. Somebody complained that it was rude to wish Jews a Merry
Christmas. Or that it was rude to wish Jews a Happy Hannukkah, because
Hannukkah is a minor holiday on the Jewish calendar, and when you're
wishing Jews a Happy Hannukkah what you're REALLY doing is wishing them a
Merry Christmas, which is insulting because Jews don't celebrate
Christmas. Or something like that.
Me, I figure I'm just being wished good things, and I can use all of those
I can get. Besides, being married to a shikse, I *do* celebrate Christmas,
sort of.
--
Mitch Wagner
Mitch Wagner
news:503d337afd285426...@spamfreenews.com:
> "Philip Chee" <phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote in message
> news:100913095...@aleytys.pc.my...
>> >I've spent my whole life, 40 years, as a Jew in America, and I'm
>> >grateful to be here. Are you suggesting it's BAD to be a Jew in
>> >America?
>
> It's better than being a Jew in Israel! So why did you cut the
> crosspost addressing. Chicken?
Not at all. I didn't consciously direct the posts anywhere; I don't pay
any attention to where follow-ups go.
Or I didn't used to; I have since been corrected and seen the error of my
ways.
--
Mitch Wagner
Marcus L. Rowland
Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes
>Speaking as a proud American: please, come home.
>
>We do not need resentful trouble-makers representing us abroad.
>
>Come home, and listen to your Christmas music in peace.
Do we have any evidence whatever that these messages are actually being
posted from a Moslem country? I've seen nothing in any of "Lisa's"
messages to confirm this, and the impression I get is someone posting
from Google (check out the path in the header) and trying to start a
cross-newsgroup flame war on racial lines. About as authentic as the
Portuguese troll who cross-posted to most of the UK newsgroups, posing
as an IRA supporter, the day Princess Di was killed.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/ http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Philip Chee
>They're all short -- less than a minute each -- but if things are
>really so bad that you can't find these anywhere else, have a little
>holiday cheer on me. Just don't turn music critic, that's all I ask.
Er, Kip, you can't escape christmas carols here in Malaysia during
this holiday season, on the radio and in the Malls. Heck all
through Eid which celebrates the end of the muslim holy month of
Ramadan, the malls were all playing christmassy songs and carols.
Some (or perhaps many) muslims here consider this grossly
insensitive.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20346.60 ž A little greed can get you lots of stuff
Philip Chee
>I did. :)
Yes he did. There were howls of outrage for such a blatant display
of ignorance and an amazing number of column inches in the letters
section of all the national papers, pointing out that:
_Morphin'_ is NOT equal to _MorphinE_
Mighty Morphin' Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20404.10 ž If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy folks?
Philip Chee
>In message <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>, Lisa
><li...@saintmail.net> writes
>>They - the MOSEM OFFICIALDOM - has see it fit to SEGREGATE the
>>SCHOOL-CHILDREN by RELIGION.
>We do that here in the UK too. I went to a Catholic school.
HiYa! I went to a Catholic school in Malaysia too "St. John's" run
by the de laSalle Brothers. Public school in the UK was CoE though.
>And a merry Christmas and prosperous new year to all of our readers,
>wherever they may be.
And the same to all of you too!
I couriered my christmas presents to my sister in Glasgow because
inexplicably, the courier charges were actually cheaper than
airmail. Our recently privatised ex Post Office is also running a
courier service and from the same counter as the parcel post too.
I was planning to send the parcel by airmail and idly asked what the
courier charges were. If I hadn't asked it would have been several
bucks more expensive. Also on the courier route I needn't have to
tie a string around the parcel which I had forgotten to do so and
which would have necessitated a trip back home to rustle up some
string.
As an extra plus it took half as long via courier and arrived today
on Christmas Eve just in time to be put under the tree for tomorrow
morning.
Actually I was on the phone to my sister earlier today and she was
grumbling about my parcel not having arrived yet when the courier
guy turned up at the door. Talk about timing!
Phil (thinks he's eaten too much today, and there's still tomorrow
to come!)
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20331.60 ž Live long and prosper... But don't let the IRS know.
Doug Wickstrom
<a06gsn$mhp$1...@panix1.panix.com>
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) excited the ether to say:
>In article <a03upc$ibg$1...@news.panix.com>,
>Ed Dravecky III <e...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In rec.arts.sf.fandom Lisa <li...@saintmail.net> wrote:
>>> I am an American, I live in this G*d Awful Moslem country
>>> because I'm married to a citizen of this country - who, thanks
>>> G*d, is a Christian! - and I must tell you that the experience
>>> with those "liberal Moslem" here isn't exactly a pleasant one.
>>
>>Oh no. Why oh why couldn't you have been Canadian for once?
>>
> Well, gee, this sort of self-congratulating tubthumping
>is more of an American thing, not some thing a Canadian would
>go in for. This modesty is why Canada is the greatest nation
>to ever exist in any universe.
>
> Plus, we have poutine and maple syrup.
So do we. Cheese curds and trees know no borders.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Every friend of freedom must be as revolted as I am by the prospect of
turning the United States into an armed camp, by the vision of jails filled
with casual drug users and of an army of enforcers empowered to invade the
liberty of citizens on slight evidence." --Milton Friedman
Doug Wickstrom
<266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>
li...@saintmail.net (Lisa) excited the ether to say:
>That Phil guy who has accused me of lying - well... the Good Lord
>knows who is lying.
Might, might not. Omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipresence.
You can have two out of three.
So why, in the name of Thor, did you post your query to
rec.arts.sf.fandom? AKICIF (All Knowledge Is Contained In
Fandom), yes, but participation is generally a good idea before
jumping in with both feet, _especially_ to criticize the
responses. Phil Chee is a long-time member of this group, and
has been involved in (loosely) organized fandom for years. He's
also a non-Muslim minority citizen of Malaysia, and Knows Whereof
He Speaks. In other words, he has credibility. You don't.
Follow-ups set to rec.arts.sf.fandom.
Doug Wickstrom
<50de2use1qvt97d0t...@4ax.com>
Diane <dla...@no.spam.here.uwo.ca> excited the ether to say:
>On 24 Dec 2001 01:10:31 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Plus, we have poutine and maple syrup.
>
>Occasionally at the same time.
Oh. My.
Now _that's_ disgusting.
Kip Williams
>
> In article <3C274F2D...@home.com> ki...@home.com writes:
>
> >They're all short -- less than a minute each -- but if things are
> >really so bad that you can't find these anywhere else, have a little
> >holiday cheer on me. Just don't turn music critic, that's all I ask.
>
> Er, Kip, you can't escape christmas carols here in Malaysia during
> this holiday season, on the radio and in the Malls. Heck all
> through Eid which celebrates the end of the muslim holy month of
> Ramadan, the malls were all playing christmassy songs and carols.
> Some (or perhaps many) muslims here consider this grossly
> insensitive.
Yes, well, on the off-chance our trollish friend could absolutely
find no carols at all, well, there they were. I wasn't directing her
to blare them from the housetops, though if she does I hope she
doesn't use my name.
Thanks for the travel tip about Malaysia!
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>In article <3c26ba9a...@cnews.newsguy.com> rit...@cruzio.com writes:
>>On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:12:26 GMT, phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee)
>>wrote:
>
>>>[1] Currently the Catholic Church is taking the Selangor State
>>>government to court over it's refusal to issue a planning permission
>>>to the church to build a community centre.
>
>>And I thoroughly agree with people complaining about restrictions to
>>their freedom of religion and expression, but I hate it when people
>>distort things just for effect: the truth is bad enough, usually.
>
>Sigh. I really shouldn't respond to that troll, but she isn't just
>distorting, she's actively talking porkies.
>
>D'ya think I should point out the latest untruths or just ignore the
>troll?
>
Well, there is this interesting side effect. You draw a more detailed
picture of a place that I don't know much more than rumors about, and
I find that very interesting. I am always grateful when people from
other places tell stories about life the way it is lived where they
are.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Vicki Rosenzweig
-0500:
>On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:48:05 +0000,
>Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> scripsit:
>> In article <3c267895...@news.alltel.net>, mike weber
>><kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>>>How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
>>
>> Protestant.
>
>Although the Anglican Church itself is meaningfully _not_ a Protestant
>Church.
An interesting problem, given that the Act of Succession limits the
throne to the Protestant heirs of Sophia of Hanover.
>
>It's one of those things that doesn't simplify, I think.
Or, from another viewpoint, can you define Protestant? (I'm not sure
I can't, except by pointing at things and saying "that one is, that
one isn't, those aren't, those say they are and who am I to argue?")
Vicki Rosenzweig
2001 19:07:57 +0000:
>In article <vmge2u0ovtkscpodp...@4ax.com>, Vicki
>Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes
>>Speaking as a proud American: please, come home.
>>
>>We do not need resentful trouble-makers representing us abroad.
>>
>>Come home, and listen to your Christmas music in peace.
>
>Do we have any evidence whatever that these messages are actually being
>posted from a Moslem country? I've seen nothing in any of "Lisa's"
>messages to confirm this, and the impression I get is someone posting
>from Google (check out the path in the header) and trying to start a
>cross-newsgroup flame war on racial lines. About as authentic as the
>Portuguese troll who cross-posted to most of the UK newsgroups, posing
>as an IRA supporter, the day Princess Di was killed.
I think Philip traced the headers to Malaysia, which is why we're
discussing conditions there specifically. But I Could Be Wrong.
gfa...@savvy.com
> 1. The G*d Awful Moslem Country is one of the _FEW_ nation, worldwide,
> to BAN the CARTOON MOVIE - "THE PRINCE OF EGYPT".
> Yes, I kid you not.
> The MOSLEM OFFICIALDOM saw that it was NECESSARY TO BAN A CARTOON
> MOVIE depicting the story of Moses.
> They are _SO_ afraid of Moses (it's funny, tho, since MOSES has been
> recognized by the MOSLEM RELIGION - Islam - as one of the prophet !)
> they even BANNED A CARTOON MOVIE based on Moses' life story .... how
> Moses brought the Jews out of Egypt.
[. . .]
> They - the MOSEM OFFICIALDOM - has see it fit to SEGREGATE the
> SCHOOL-CHILDREN by RELIGION.
All together now: ARE they TRYING to put GOD out of BUSINESS!?
--
Gary Farber Boulder, Colorado
gfa...@savvy.com
Kate Schaefer
news:3C278F67...@home.com...
> Philip Chee wrote:
> >
> > In article <3C274F2D...@home.com> ki...@home.com writes:
> >
> > >They're all short -- less than a minute each -- but if things are
> > >really so bad that you can't find these anywhere else, have a little
> > >holiday cheer on me. Just don't turn music critic, that's all I ask.
> >
> > Er, Kip, you can't escape christmas carols here in Malaysia during
> > this holiday season, on the radio and in the Malls. Heck all
> > through Eid which celebrates the end of the muslim holy month of
> > Ramadan, the malls were all playing christmassy songs and carols.
> > Some (or perhaps many) muslims here consider this grossly
> > insensitive.
>
> Yes, well, on the off-chance our trollish friend could absolutely
> find no carols at all, well, there they were. I wasn't directing her
> to blare them from the housetops, though if she does I hope she
> doesn't use my name.
>
> Thanks for the travel tip about Malaysia!
There's something charming about dealing with the troll by simply giving
it what it claims it's looking for rather than the argument it seems to be
looking for.
thesequencers
news:Xns9181690307A5Em...@24.4.64.20...
Liar. Nice Wishbone Ash ref, though!
Stan
thesequencers
news:a07hsl$c3k$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <3C251D36...@home.com>,
> Gwen & Emory Stagmer <emor...@home.com> wrote:
> >Just a moment there Stan.
> >
> >SEPERATION is NOT in our constitution.
I haven't seen that post before.
Anyhow, I do believe it is in the constitution (though perhaps not as
simplified with a simple word like "separation").
Stan
thesequencers
news:266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com...
> "thesequencers" <midi...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:<a03c6a1789b5153e...@spamfreenews.com>...
> > "Lisa" <li...@saintmail.net> wrote in message
> > news:266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com...
> > > knows who is lying.
> > >
> > > that have nothing to do with flamewar.
> >
> > There's no such thing, IMHO. Oh BTW: I also believe there's no such
thing
> > as a God. I could be wrong, of course!
> >
> >
> > Stan
>
>
> True. Everybody could be wrong for everything.
>
> But that still doesn't mean we should NOT recognize that once upon a
> time, there was _someone_ living in Israel who did something that is
> so out of the ordinary that people actually recorded what he did ...
Like a astronaut from another planet with much superier technology than we
had at the time?
Stan
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
> I know loads of people who got born and few who rose
>from the dead and none of them did it for other people's sins.
Lovely. RASFF Award, if I have the necessary mojo to bestow one,
given how little I'm here.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 11/17/01
My latest novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, just published by Tor.
David G. Bell
<slrna2erpg....@hunding.localdomain> gra...@dsl.ca
"Graydon Saunders" wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:48:05 +0000,
> Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> scripsit:
> > In article <3c267895...@news.alltel.net>, mike weber
> ><kras...@mindspring.com> writes
> >>How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
> >
> > Protestant.
>
> Although the Anglican Church itself is meaningfully _not_ a Protestant
> Church.
>
> It's one of those things that doesn't simplify, I think.
I think we have ab extremely Christian constitution, founded on the
words of Christ. He said we were to be fishers of men, and so our
constitution is our net.
Full of holes.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Mr. Punch's Advice to a Young Man About to Become a Farmer:
"Marry, instead."
Marcus L. Rowland
<mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>Do we have any evidence whatever that these messages are actually being
>posted from a Moslem country?
Oh hell; sorry, make that _Islamic_ country.
Marcus L. Rowland
<phi...@aleytys.pc.my> writes
>And the same to all of you too!
>
>I couriered my christmas presents to my sister in Glasgow because
>inexplicably, the courier charges were actually cheaper than
>airmail. Our recently privatised ex Post Office is also running a
>courier service and from the same counter as the parcel post too.
Reminds me to pass on my top tip for anyone posting small airmail
packages from the UK (and I suspect many other countries); if they're
not valuable and the weight of a CD in case or heavier, but light enough
to go as air letters rather than parcels, use "Small Packet" rate, which
is about HALF the price of normal air letter rate at that weight and
only marginally slower. The only disadvantage is that you have to put a
customs declaration (a small green sticky label) on the packet, saying
what's in it and how much it's worth. The minimum weight at which the
small packet service is cheaper is just slightly more than a CD in a
vinyl wallet, so I often have to post a mixture of air letters and small
packets to the USA; I often get e-mail acknowledgement when they arrive,
and I've never noticed a difference of more than a day or two in
delivery time, with small packets often arriving first.
For some reason post offices very rarely mention that this rate exists
when you go to post things, and Mailboxes Etc. _always_ have to be told,
at least twice, that it's the small packet rate I want. But it's there.
Marcus L. Rowland
Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes
>
>I think Philip traced the headers to Malaysia, which is why we're
>discussing conditions there specifically. But I Could Be Wrong.
>--
Oh yeah, sorry, must have missed that one, Demon news has been behaving
very oddly for the last few days. How the heck does an ISP called
"saintmail" come to be based in an Islamic country, and have a path that
goes back to Google?
Breezy
> > >SEPERATION is NOT in our constitution.
>
> I haven't seen that post before.
>
> Anyhow, I do believe it is in the constitution (though perhaps not as
> simplified with a simple word like "separation").
The Constitution of the United States should be required reading as a
condition of being a citizen.
The so-called "separation of church and state" is found in the first 16
words of the First Amendment. It's not difficult to interpret, and it
shouldn't really be all that easy to spin... but many people seem to look at
it and see things that *aren't there!*
Amendment I in it's entirety:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Breezy
> many people seem to look at it and see things that *aren't there!*
I'll also add... many people also *ignore* what's actually there.
Nancy Lebovitz
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote:
>In article <3C274F2D...@home.com> ki...@home.com writes:
>
>>They're all short -- less than a minute each -- but if things are
>>really so bad that you can't find these anywhere else, have a little
>>holiday cheer on me. Just don't turn music critic, that's all I ask.
>
>Er, Kip, you can't escape christmas carols here in Malaysia during
>this holiday season, on the radio and in the Malls. Heck all
>through Eid which celebrates the end of the muslim holy month of
>Ramadan, the malls were all playing christmassy songs and carols.
>Some (or perhaps many) muslims here consider this grossly
>insensitive.
Are there any Eid songs which could be played as well?
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
P Nielsen Hayden
Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> Lisa wrote in message <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>...
>
> A right load of dog's bollocks.
>
> I am astonished that anyone can be as self righteously racist and offensive,
> whilst still continuing to be a guest in someone else's country. I try to
> resist replying to nasty vicious little trolls, but this is way off.
"A guest in someone else's country"? Alison, this is bollocks itself.
It's precisely the argument that tyrants everywhere use to justify
brutality toward whichever foreigners they deem it necessary or
desirable to mistreat -- toward whatever ethnic or religious
minorities they wish to disenfranchise, persecute, torture, and kill.
Persecution of religious minorities in Moslem countries is a real
thing. Right now, while you read this, Christians are being hunted
and killed in remote parts of Indonesia, and I'm sure the people doing
the hunting and killing are happy to explain that they are justified
because these Christians are unwelcome "guests." Meanwhile, the wives
of many American workers stationed by their employers in places like
Saudi Arabia can tell you apalling stories of their treatment at the
hands of the local religious police, treatment up to and including
on-the-spot public beating for such offenses as absent-mindedly
getting into the front passenger seat of a car.
> Lisa, if you don't like it, then naff off back to whence you came, and stop
> insulting the people who are presumably employing your poor spouse. For whom
> I feel the utmost sympathy.
This Lisa creature is a terrible advertisement for her own cause;
anyone who cites Christian scripture and the Christian God with her
kind of confident oafishness, as if a mixed and secular group like
this ought _a priori_ to reel back in agreement, does their own
argument mortal damage. Moreover, her argument about church-building
is silly; if zoning disputes of this were the worst thing that
happened to religious minorities in the Islamic world, we would be
living in a much happier world than the one that actually exists.
But the kinds of worse injustices she is clumsily alluding to do
happen, and they are real injustices, and the notion that anyone
should put up with denial of basic human rights because they are "a
guest" is based in falsity. Nincompoops and ninnies have basic human
rights, too, and we had better defend them. Don't get on the wrong
side of this issue just because a fool plants herself on the right
side and proceeds to shoot off both of her feet.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Electrolite: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/electrolite.html
P Nielsen Hayden
Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:56:20 -0500,
> Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> scripsit:
>> Quoth Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> on Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:08:48
>> -0500:
>>>On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:48:05 +0000,
>>>Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> scripsit:
>>>> In article <3c267895...@news.alltel.net>, mike weber
>>>><kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>>>>>How would you derscribe the Constitution of Great Britain?
>>>>
>>>> Protestant.
>>>
>>>Although the Anglican Church itself is meaningfully _not_ a Protestant
>>>Church.
>>
>> An interesting problem, given that the Act of Succession limits the
>> throne to the Protestant heirs of Sophia of Hanover.
>
> importance of Apostolic Succession are, religiously, not Protestant
> things to do.
The question of whether the Anglican Church is in its essence
"Protestant" or not was one that has inflamed the minds of generations
of churchly and secular intellectuals, although not lately. Graydon
is right to make this distinction.
Joel Rosenberg
Yeah. Wish I'd said all of that.
Add to the list of offenses that way that female American soldiers are
treated in Saudi Arabia. They're not guests -- they're part of the
military force that's protecting the rulers' worthless asses.
--
-------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun,
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
-------------------------------------
Philip Chee
>On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:46:13 GMT, phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee)
>wrote:
>>Sigh. I really shouldn't respond to that troll, but she isn't just
>>distorting, she's actively talking porkies.
>>D'ya think I should point out the latest untruths or just ignore the
>>troll?
>Well, there is this interesting side effect. You draw a more detailed
>picture of a place that I don't know much more than rumors about, and
>I find that very interesting. I am always grateful when people from
>other places tell stories about life the way it is lived where they
>are.
All you need to know is:
1. Very good food
2. Lots of sunny and sandy beaches
3. Very friendly people
4. The usual group of greedy corrupt self-serving politicians
(Well three out of four ain't bad!)
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20362.71 ž Today is cancelled due to lack of interest!
Ulrika O'Brien
gra...@dsl.ca says...
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:42:10 -0600,
> Doug Wickstrom <nims...@uswest.net> scripsit:
> > On 24 Dec 2001 01:10:31 -0500, in message
> ><a06gsn$mhp$1...@panix1.panix.com>
> > jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) excited the ether to say:
> >
> > So do we. Cheese curds and trees know no borders.
>
I feel certain that it must be possible to parse that second
sentence in English, but clearly I am not the one to do it.
--
"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten we belong
to each other." -- Mother Teresa
Kristopher
> Don't get on the wrong side of this issue just because a
> fool plants herself on the right side and proceeds to
> shoot off both of her feet.
"There is no cause so right that one cannot find
a fool following it." -- Larry Niven
--
Kristopher
"I'd like to trade in this shovel for what's behind Door #2.
Oh, look, a backhoe."
James Nicoll
Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <slrna2fa0o....@hunding.localdomain>,
>gra...@dsl.ca says...
>> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:42:10 -0600,
>> Doug Wickstrom <nims...@uswest.net> scripsit:
>> > On 24 Dec 2001 01:10:31 -0500, in message
>> ><a06gsn$mhp$1...@panix1.panix.com>
>> > jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) excited the ether to say:
>> >> Plus, we have poutine and maple syrup.
>> >
>> > So do we. Cheese curds and trees know no borders.
>>
>> Of course not. You couldn't take maple poutine into Chapters, either.
>
>I feel certain that it must be possible to parse that second
>sentence in English, but clearly I am not the one to do it.
>
Borders is like an American copy of Chapters, except Borders
came first and does the BBBS thing much better than Chapters. I don't
think Borders ever triggered federal hearings into their negative effect
on national publishing and Chapters did.
James Nicoll
--
"Don't worry. It's just a bunch of crazies who believe in only one
god. They're just this far away from atheism."
Wayne & Schuster
P Nielsen Hayden
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Borders is like an American copy of Chapters, except Borders
> came first and does the BBBS thing much better than Chapters. I don't
> think Borders ever triggered federal hearings into their negative effect
> on national publishing and Chapters did.
That's because Borders isn't the only national chain of book
superstores in the US. There's also Barnes & Noble, which is in fact
larger.
By the way, are you sure Chapters predates Borders?
P Nielsen Hayden
Kristopher <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote:
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>
>> Don't get on the wrong side of this issue just because a
>> fool plants herself on the right side and proceeds to
>> shoot off both of her feet.
>
> "There is no cause so right that one cannot find
> a fool following it." -- Larry Niven
A maxim we've had many occasions to recall in recent times.
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
> In article <tjhf2us0dkje7risn...@4ax.com>, Vicki
> Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes
> >
> >I think Philip traced the headers to Malaysia, which is why we're
> >discussing conditions there specifically. But I Could Be Wrong.
> >--
>
> Oh yeah, sorry, must have missed that one, Demon news has been behaving
> very oddly for the last few days. How the heck does an ISP called
> "saintmail" come to be based in an Islamic country, and have a path that
> goes back to Google?
My guess is that they're missionaries (if not only a troll).
Saintmail seems to be "Christian" service. She's coming across as a
Christian bigot, in a group where bigotry is possibly the most
unforgivable sin.
As far as I can tell Patrick has gone off the deep end at Alison,
since I also believe that one should be on one's best behavior in
countries where you're not part of the culture. Guests are careful
about what they say about their hosts. You're going to
offend unintentionally quite enough, anyway.
Phil, who has credence here, says she's exxagerating, at the least.
73, doug
who got a scope clock, www.cathodecorner.com, for Christmas.
Alison Hopkins
P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:19:45 -0000,
> Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>> Lisa wrote in message
<266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> A right load of dog's bollocks.
>>
>> I am astonished that anyone can be as self righteously racist and
offensive,
>> whilst still continuing to be a guest in someone else's country. I try to
>> resist replying to nasty vicious little trolls, but this is way off.
>
>
>"A guest in someone else's country"? Alison, this is bollocks itself.
>It's precisely the argument that tyrants everywhere use to justify
>brutality toward whichever foreigners they deem it necessary or
>desirable to mistreat -- toward whatever ethnic or religious
>minorities they wish to disenfranchise, persecute, torture, and kill.
I think this is a tad OTT as a response to one word, but never mind. It's
also putting a construciton on what I said, which makes a meaning which is
*not* what I said at all.
Luckily, Lisa has the ability to get out. She is not in Saudi, she is, from
all accounts, in Malaysia, which is not exacly difficult to leave. she isn't
that poor bloody woman who fought so hard in Myanmar, for instance.
>
>Persecution of religious minorities in Moslem countries is a real
>thing. Right now, while you read this, Christians are being hunted
>and killed in remote parts of Indonesia, and I'm sure the people doing
>the hunting and killing are happy to explain that they are justified
>because these Christians are unwelcome "guests." Meanwhile, the wives
>of many American workers stationed by their employers in places like
>Saudi Arabia can tell you apalling stories of their treatment at the
>hands of the local religious police, treatment up to and including
>on-the-spot public beating for such offenses as absent-mindedly
>getting into the front passenger seat of a car.
I know. I have a female friend who was the victim of this in Saudi. I had a
very close friend (male) who died ten years back who was a saudi national
and told horror stories.
>
>
>> Lisa, if you don't like it, then naff off back to whence you came, and
stop
>> insulting the people who are presumably employing your poor spouse. For
whom
>> I feel the utmost sympathy.
>
>
>This Lisa creature is a terrible advertisement for her own cause;
>anyone who cites Christian scripture and the Christian God with her
>kind of confident oafishness, as if a mixed and secular group like
>this ought _a priori_ to reel back in agreement, does their own
>argument mortal damage. Moreover, her argument about church-building
>is silly; if zoning disputes of this were the worst thing that
>happened to religious minorities in the Islamic world, we would be
>living in a much happier world than the one that actually exists.
>
>But the kinds of worse injustices she is clumsily alluding to do
>happen, and they are real injustices, and the notion that anyone
>should put up with denial of basic human rights because they are "a
>guest" is based in falsity. Nincompoops and ninnies have basic human
>rights, too, and we had better defend them. Don't get on the wrong
>side of this issue just because a fool plants herself on the right
>side and proceeds to shoot off both of her feet.
Patrick, find me any where I said this last paragraph, or anything like it,
or ever have and I will leave here now, and I mean that. I put up with
discrimination when I was in my teens and twenties, it still happens and I
ain't about to support it.
Ali
Joel Rosenberg
> "Marcus L. Rowland" <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> > In article <tjhf2us0dkje7risn...@4ax.com>, Vicki
> > Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes
> > >
> > >I think Philip traced the headers to Malaysia, which is why we're
> > >discussing conditions there specifically. But I Could Be Wrong.
> > >--
> >
> > Oh yeah, sorry, must have missed that one, Demon news has been behaving
> > very oddly for the last few days. How the heck does an ISP called
> > "saintmail" come to be based in an Islamic country, and have a path that
> > goes back to Google?
>
> My guess is that they're missionaries (if not only a troll).
> Saintmail seems to be "Christian" service. She's coming across as a
> Christian bigot, in a group where bigotry is possibly the most
> unforgivable sin.
>
> As far as I can tell Patrick has gone off the deep end at Alison,
> since I also believe that one should be on one's best behavior in
> countries where you're not part of the culture. Guests are careful
> about what they say about their hosts. You're going to
> offend unintentionally quite enough, anyway.
>
And that's a reasonable attitude, for most values of "guest." On the
other hand, it would seem to me that most people who have, as a
condition of keeping a job -- or because their government has ordered
them to, to protect the local oligarchy -- have travelled to another
country aren't quite "guests" in the ordinary sense of the word, and
that treating one's employees with respect should, quite reasonably,
be a "part of the culture".
But, sure, somebody whose idea of tourism includes the ski slopes of
Tehran or the shopping centers of Riyadh should understand, in
advance, what's required.
Alison Hopkins
Joel Rosenberg wrote in message ...
I think there's a slight difference between taking an expat job, and being
statoned in the military, let's say. The latter are there usually to protect
the oligarchy, as you rightly say. My friend had a lovely story of a female
US soldier being told off by the Saudi religous police, and whipping out her
gun in reply! However, the expats I've known - and these aren't the poor
sods of Pakistanis who are paid tuppence and treeated like crap - are out
there becuase they get paid a very large amount of tax free salary. So, they
put up and shut up, generally. This is a conscious choice.
>
>But, sure, somebody whose idea of tourism includes the ski slopes of
>Tehran or the shopping centers of Riyadh should understand, in
>advance, what's required.
>
Yeah, well, if you go work somewhere and haven't done the research, that's
loopy. I would not, and could not work in Saudi, but I'd also not work in
Nigeria, Pakistan and a few other places to boot. And felt very unsafe in
Brazil. Whenever I've gone somewhere new, I've done the homework.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 wrote in message ...
>
>As far as I can tell Patrick has gone off the deep end at Alison,
>since I also believe that one should be on one's best behavior in
>countries where you're not part of the culture. Guests are careful
>about what they say about their hosts. You're going to
>offend unintentionally quite enough, anyway.
>
Thank you. That is precisely the context in which I meant the word guest.
Ali
gfa...@savvy.com
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 <faunt+...@panix.com> wrote:
[. . .]
> As far as I can tell Patrick has gone off the deep end at Alison,
> since I also believe that one should be on one's best behavior in
> countries where you're not part of the culture. Guests are careful
> about what they say about their hosts. You're going to
> offend unintentionally quite enough, anyway.
I didn't notice Patrick suggesting that anyone anywhere should be rude --
meaning inappropriately boorish or unnecessarily critical -- about customs
and policies in any land one is visiting. I did notice him saying that
religious persecution, to the point of putting people to death, was a real
and ongoing issue around the world.
More directly, "best behavior," whether as a visitor or a homebody outsider,
not only doesn't preclude valid criticism of customs or practices or
policies of a place where one doesn't live, but makes it, IMO, when
appropriately chosen, downright mandatory.
Or was it a violation of "best behavior" for "foreigners," say, to speak
critically of Jim Crow in the US? Was it simply rude for US policy in
Vietnam to be questioned and criticized by Europeans and others? Should no
one but those who live in Israel and Palestine speak critically of anything
that goes on there? Should we in the US take Robert Heinlein's attitude
that "foreigners" should not "interfere" in US policy with their terribly
rude speech to us?
I daresay you likely don't find anything off the deepp end in answering "no"
to any of these questions, Doug.
Purity, inviolability, and constancy, of unitary local culture is also a
questionable suggestion buried in your comment.
--
Gary Farber Boulder, Colorado
gfa...@savvy.com
Joel Rosenberg
Sure. It's all along a contiuum. I think there's a dramatic
difference between taking an expat job during a recession and one
during a labor shortage, for example.
The latter are there usually to protect
> the oligarchy, as you rightly say. My friend had a lovely story of a female
> US soldier being told off by the Saudi religous police, and whipping out her
> gun in reply!
If it's a true story, I hope it didn't get reported to the US
authorities, who would have had to punish her for that transgression.
However, the expats I've known - and these aren't the poor
> sods of Pakistanis who are paid tuppence and treeated like crap - are out
> there becuase they get paid a very large amount of tax free salary. So, they
> put up and shut up, generally. This is a conscious choice.
>
> >
> >But, sure, somebody whose idea of tourism includes the ski slopes of
> >Tehran or the shopping centers of Riyadh should understand, in
> >advance, what's required.
> >
>
> Yeah, well, if you go work somewhere and haven't done the research, that's
> loopy. I would not, and could not work in Saudi, but I'd also not work in
> Nigeria, Pakistan and a few other places to boot. And felt very unsafe in
> Brazil. Whenever I've gone somewhere new, I've done the homework.
>
> Ali
>
Good. And I mean that without a trace of sarcasm, honest.
P Nielsen Hayden
>
>> In article <tjhf2us0dkje7risn...@4ax.com>, Vicki
>> Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes
>> >
>> >I think Philip traced the headers to Malaysia, which is why we're
>> >discussing conditions there specifically. But I Could Be Wrong.
>> >--
>>
>> Oh yeah, sorry, must have missed that one, Demon news has been behaving
>> very oddly for the last few days. How the heck does an ISP called
>> "saintmail" come to be based in an Islamic country, and have a path that
>> goes back to Google?
>
> My guess is that they're missionaries (if not only a troll).
> Saintmail seems to be "Christian" service. She's coming across as a
> Christian bigot, in a group where bigotry is possibly the most
> unforgivable sin.
She certainly is.
> As far as I can tell Patrick has gone off the deep end at Alison,
> since I also believe that one should be on one's best behavior in
> countries where you're not part of the culture.
If that "should" is the "should" of courtesy, nobody with any sense
could disagree.
If that "should" is meant as a defense of coercion and law, then you
are arguing for authoritarianism, cruelty, and the dominion of might
over right.
> Phil, who has credence here, says she's exxagerating, at the least.
Phil certainly has credibility with me when it comes to discussing the
actual politics and culture of Malaysia. And this Lisa spammer has
none. But the general principles being stated by some rasff regulars,
trying to refute her, are simply shocking.
What I'm seeing is people of normally good sense like yourself and
Alison getting up and enunciating the most thoroughly -- I'm sorry --
fascist principles. You have just said, in so many words, that extra
obligations are and ought to be incumbent on people in a country who
are "not part of the culture." You're not addressing legal categories
like citizenship, you're going straight to the concept of "culture"
and pinning your argument to it. What on earth are you thinking?
We weren't discussing how tourists should behave while travelling; we
were discussing issues of who should be treated how, in connection
with (for instance) their religion. I certainly agree that it would
be deplorable to walk into a mosque in Islamabad (or Cairo, or
Brooklyn) and make snotty comments about Islam. I also observe that
many Islamic countries really do mistreat their religious minorities,
and the claim that one "should be on one's best behavior in countries
where you're not part of the culture" is exactly the charter that
Islamic tyrants, just like tyrants worldwide, claim for their
brutality against whomsoever it suits them to torment.
Frankly, I think that rasff is more and more becoming a place where
it's okay to be irrational, abusive, and thoughtless, as long as one
does it in service of an approved list of pieties, and as long as one
directs one's more ill-natured and patently unfair comments to an
approved list of people who are deemed, no matter what they actually
say, to deserve them.
P Nielsen Hayden
>
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
>>On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:19:45 -0000,
>> Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Lisa wrote in message
> <266b67ef.01122...@posting.google.com>...
>>>
>>> A right load of dog's bollocks.
>>>
>>> I am astonished that anyone can be as self righteously racist and
> offensive,
>>> whilst still continuing to be a guest in someone else's country. I try to
>>> resist replying to nasty vicious little trolls, but this is way off.
>>
>>
>>"A guest in someone else's country"? Alison, this is bollocks itself.
>>It's precisely the argument that tyrants everywhere use to justify
>>brutality toward whichever foreigners they deem it necessary or
>>desirable to mistreat -- toward whatever ethnic or religious
>>minorities they wish to disenfranchise, persecute, torture, and kill.
>
> I think this is a tad OTT as a response to one word, but never mind. It's
> also putting a construciton on what I said, which makes a meaning which is
> *not* what I said at all.
Either words mean something or they do not. I'm glad to hear that you
don't mean what it sounded like you meant. But the whole idea that
one's status as a "guest" entails a foreswearing of minimal human
rights is exactly the argument that tyrants of all stripes use to
justify themselves.
Note that Doug Faunt just now spelled out this argument in more
detail, and it is as entirely wrong there as it was in your "one
word."
> Luckily, Lisa has the ability to get out. She is not in Saudi, she is, from
> all accounts, in Malaysia, which is not exacly difficult to leave.
Indeed, and I've already remarked that I have very little sympathy
with this "Lisa" entity, even assuming she is a real person and not
simply a trumped-up contrivance. I am responding to the shocking
arguments being put forth in favor of deeply authoritarian ideas,
posted in response to "her" foolish posts.
>>This Lisa creature is a terrible advertisement for her own cause;
>>anyone who cites Christian scripture and the Christian God with her
>>kind of confident oafishness, as if a mixed and secular group like
>>this ought _a priori_ to reel back in agreement, does their own
>>argument mortal damage. Moreover, her argument about church-building
>>is silly; if zoning disputes of this were the worst thing that
>>happened to religious minorities in the Islamic world, we would be
>>living in a much happier world than the one that actually exists.
>>
>>But the kinds of worse injustices she is clumsily alluding to do
>>happen, and they are real injustices, and the notion that anyone
>>should put up with denial of basic human rights because they are "a
>>guest" is based in falsity. Nincompoops and ninnies have basic human
>>rights, too, and we had better defend them. Don't get on the wrong
>>side of this issue just because a fool plants herself on the right
>>side and proceeds to shoot off both of her feet.
>
> Patrick, find me any where I said this last paragraph, or anything like it,
> or ever have and I will leave here now, and I mean that.
I don't want you to leave; I want you to help find a better way to
isolate what's reprehensible about this "Lisa"'s posts than the
argument -- about the supposed obligations of "guests" -- that you are
using. I am seeing normally liberal and thoughtful people rush to
embrace the idea that "culture" should have untrammelled coercive
power. That is exactly the dark notion that the forces of liberal
enlightenment have been fighting against for five hundred years. To
hear it blandly asserted by supposed liberals breaks my heart.
gfa...@savvy.com
Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
[. . .]
> Luckily, Lisa has the ability to get out. She is not in Saudi, she is, from
Pet peeve: nobody is in "Saudi." (They may be in Arabia.)
Just as you do not live in "Great" or "United," any more than I live in
"United" or grew up in "New."
Very very very few of us, it turns out, live in modifiers; most of us live
in Noun Land.
[. . .]
> I know. I have a female friend who was the victim of this in Saudi.
I hope she found solace when she got back to Great.
</usage pet peeve>
[. . . .]
Kate Schaefer
news:100929789...@aleytys.pc.my...
[...]
> All you need to know is:
>
> 1. Very good food
> 2. Lots of sunny and sandy beaches
> 3. Very friendly people
> 4. The usual group of greedy corrupt self-serving politicians
>
> (Well three out of four ain't bad!)
That may be all we *need* to know, but it's nice to know the other things
you tell us as well. Thank you, That Phil Guy.
(It may take weeks [years in Usenet time] before I go back thinking of you
simply as Phil rather than as That Phil Guy.)
gfa...@savvy.com
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
[. . .]
> Frankly, I think that rasff is more and more becoming a place where
> it's okay to be irrational, abusive, and thoughtless, as long as one
> does it in service of an approved list of pieties, and as long as one
> directs one's more ill-natured and patently unfair comments to an
> approved list of people who are deemed, no matter what they actually
> say, to deserve them.
Hoping not to get in the way of a good, satisfying, well-earned, growl of
crankiness, I murmur that reasseff strikes me as being a lot like planet
Earth, in this regard, and that I'm unclear that the trend is other than
steady-state. This hour, that is; ask me right after I read a few posts I
deem diamond-strong in their stupidity and nastiness, and I shall feel
otherwise, particularly if they're directed at me.
But few of us are immune from knowing that we, the few, are truly
free-thinkers, questioning souls, able to see through the shibboleths of
others, rising above the masses, hoist by our uncommmon piercing insights,
which we are able to confirm by noting that others who have equally piercing
mental acuity share the perceptiveness of our analyses.
Well, okay, probably it's just me who does this. The rest of youse guys,
nah.
Mitch Wagner
> In article <3c28d0e2$0$8509$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>
> Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> [. . .]
>> Luckily, Lisa has the ability to get out. She is not in Saudi, she is,
>> from
>
> Pet peeve: nobody is in "Saudi." (They may be in Arabia.)
Nonsense. We have a friend who is a veteran of the Gulf War, she usually
refers to the name of the country as "Saudi." I'm told this is common
military shorthand.
--
Mitch Wagner
Mitch Wagner
news:slrna2hm2...@panix3.panix.com:
And this is exactly the justification being used by people who support so-
called "military tribunals" to try foreigners living in the U.S. accused
of terrorism: they're not really Americans, and therefore we are not
required to support their basic civil rights.
Alison Hopkins
Yup. I know people who've been "forced" in to being gastarbeiters, and it
wasn't fun.
>
> The latter are there usually to protect
>> the oligarchy, as you rightly say. My friend had a lovely story of a
female
>> US soldier being told off by the Saudi religous police, and whipping out
her
>> gun in reply!
>
>If it's a true story, I hope it didn't get reported to the US
>authorities, who would have had to punish her for that transgression.
It may have got back via the grapevine, but nothing official, afaik.
>
> However, the expats I've known - and these aren't the poor
>> sods of Pakistanis who are paid tuppence and treeated like crap - are out
>> there becuase they get paid a very large amount of tax free salary. So,
they
>> put up and shut up, generally. This is a conscious choice.
>>
>> >
>> >But, sure, somebody whose idea of tourism includes the ski slopes of
>> >Tehran or the shopping centers of Riyadh should understand, in
>> >advance, what's required.
>> >
>>
>> Yeah, well, if you go work somewhere and haven't done the research,
that's
>> loopy. I would not, and could not work in Saudi, but I'd also not work in
>> Nigeria, Pakistan and a few other places to boot. And felt very unsafe in
>> Brazil. Whenever I've gone somewhere new, I've done the homework.
>>
>> Ali
>>
>
>Good. And I mean that without a trace of sarcasm, honest.
>
>--
I know! :)
Ali
Alison Hopkins
P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
>What I'm seeing is people of normally good sense like yourself and
>Alison getting up and enunciating the most thoroughly -- I'm sorry --
>fascist principles.
Thanks Patrick. That just fucking does it for me, and a very happy Christmas
to you too. That's about the most offensive thing I've ever had said of me,
and I've had a fair bloody bit over the years. The rest of the post wasn't
exactly sweet, either, but that just takes the cake. And the word sorry
doesn't excuse any of it.
Ali