Inauguration preparation
Kate Schaefer
Dress warmly, to avoid William Henry Harrison syndrome. Wear a hat,
preferably a thick polarfleece one which stays on your head when you run
rather than a fedora.
Take bottled water. Don't get dehydrated.
Carry the same amount of food in your pockets that you would if you were
hiking all day. Make sure it's well wrapped so it doesn't get contaminated
by tear gas or pepper spray.
Stick a bandanna or two in your pocket. In case of tear gas or pepper
spray, apply some of the bottled water to the bandanna, and the bandanna to
your face. Your eyes will still hurt, but WTO veterans say your throat and
nose will be partially spared.
Make sure you have lots of telephone change in your pockets.
Make sure someone in the DC area will be home all day to relay any calls if
you are arrested. Have a contingency plan to get bailed out.
Step to the rear if you observe police removing their badges, but take a
picture of them doing so as you do so, if you can. Your hat may come in
handy at this point, if you're unable to step to the rear.
None of this is from my personal experience, except the water, the snacks,
and the bandanna, which I have used against sun, not chemicals. I don't
usually remember most of these things when I go to demonstrations. I assume
that there will be no police rioting at this inauguration, but it's best to
be prepared. I honor your actions.
Avram Grumer
> Some probably unnecessary advice for youse guys going to
> the inauguration:
Predictions of snow are weakening my resolve.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
"All this talk of legitimacy is way overblown."
-- James Baker III
Seen on ABC's "This Week", 10 December 2000
P Nielsen Hayden
Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
by shooting at demonstrators.
It's our country, it's our capital, we're law-abiding citizens, we're
perfectly entitled to be there. Yes, we shout be prepared, like good
Scouts. But I don't think it's sensible to start whipping ourselves
up into this kind of fear. That's where _they_ want us. Jeez, have
some sense.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Dave Weingart
>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>adminstration _wants_ to appear authoritarian.
Umm...I know that in the Graydonverse things aren't always quite in
synch with the world that most rasseffarians live in, but I think this
is a little over the top. (Actually, a fair amount over the top, I
don't think that there'll be rioting on either side during the Shrub's
inauguration. Sure, some incidents will occur, but grapeshot? Not a
chance.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Consonance 2001! Urban Tapestry!
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Mike Stein! Oh, yeah, and some guy
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux named Dave Wein-something-or-other.
ICQ 57055207 http://www.consonance.org
Janet Kegg
Exactly. Thanks, Patrick.
I've lived in Washington for over 30 years. I've even done a bit of
marching myself. Demos and marches are something we are quite used to
in this capital city, something our police are expected to and trained
to handle with good sense and restraint. I'd bet against headbashing
and grapeshot without hesitation. The world is looking on, ya know.
-- Janet
gfa...@savvy.com
[. . .]
> Stick a bandanna or two in your pocket. In case of tear gas or pepper
> spray, apply some of the bottled water to the bandanna, and the bandanna to
> your face. Your eyes will still hurt, but WTO veterans say your throat and
> nose will be partially spared.
I previously posted in one of the several previous threads on this:
<http://www.corpreform.org/teargas.html>:
TEAR GAS & PEPPER SPRAY
PREVENTION: Wash before with castille soap. Cover up with water repellent
clothes & gear. Don’t wear contact lenses, make-up, moisturizers or
vegetable/mineral oil-based cream. Don’t use Vaseline or mineral oil as skin
barrier. Use gas mask, respirators, sealed (swim) goggles, and/or vinegar
or lemon juice-soaked bandanna over mouth/nose.
GENERAL TREATMENT: Stay calm & focused. You are strong. The discomfort is
only temporary & will not damage you. Don’t touch face or rub eyes. Get to
fresh air, eyes open, arms out (if tear gas), breath slow & deep. Blow nose,
spit out chemicals. Consider water to flush eyes & gargle. Water or Witch
Hazel soaked gauze or cotton balls on closed eyes are soothing. After
treatment, wash off with cold water& replace contaminated clothes. WIPES may
be clean cloth, gauze, 4x4s etc. . WATER may have 4 drops per quart of
Rescue Remedy added. NORMAL SALINE (0.9% sodium solution) may be substituted
for rinsing, cleaning water.
Call for "Medic!" if needed
TEAR GAS:
Effects last minutes to an hour. Maybe rinse chemical off with water.
PEPPER SPRAY:
Effects last up to 2 hours. If still wet on skin, carefully sponge off.
Don’t spread it around.
· The Seattle Facial: Seattle Solution (1 bottle w 10 - 15 % vegetable oil
or mineral oil, the rest water & 1-2 tbs. of liquid dish soap.) 1 bottle of
water - or - ‘babywipes’.Wipe solution on skin. Rinse off with water -or-
wipe off with babywipes.
· The Protester Facial:Wipe mineral oil on skin. Immediately wipe ALL off
with rubbing alcohol. Mineral oil will trap chemicals, so take it ALL off!
--------
I simply quoted that from the URL, but if anyone going didn't read this URL:
HOSPITALS: All hospitals must admit people with medical emergencies if they
are capable of treating you. Only DC General Hospital is a public hospital.
Even they can refuse non-emergency treatment to uninsured non-DC residents.
http://www.thomas.com/poi/wmg98/CategoryList15.html
All located in DC (202) area code. From nearest to further away:
· George Washington University Hospital, 23 St. & I St. NW, across from
Metro: Foggy Bottom/GWU. ER: 715-5315
· Columbia Hospital for Women, 24 St. & L St. NW, 3 blocks north of Metro:
Foggy Bottom/ GWU. (no emergency room) 293-6500
· Georgetown University Hospital, 38 St. & Reservoir Rd. NW. ER: 784-2119
Metro: Dupont Circle then take D2 Bus or GUTS Shuttle Bus.
· Howard University Hospital, Georgia Ave. & V St. NW. 3 blocks north of
Metro:Shaw/Howard U., ER triage: 865-1131
· Washington Hospital Center, Emergency Room is behind (north of) Children’s
Hospital, 1st St. & Michigan Ave., NW Metro: Brookland/CUA then take H2, 3
or 4 Bus or Shuttle Bus. ER: 877-6701. Eye Center located inside Suite
1A-19. 877-EYES (3937)
· VA Hospital, Across street from Washington Hospital Center on 1st St. &
Irving NW. Same transportation as Wash. Hosp. Center.
· DC General Hospital, 19 St. & Massachusetts Ave. SE, Across from Metro:
Stadium/Armory (Blue & Yellow lines).(Might be faster to get to than above
hospitals that are not near a Metro). ER Triage: 698-7518
--------
There is a *lot* more useful information on dealing with anti-crowd gasses
and sprays at this URL; I strongly urge anyone going to DC to go to the URL,
read what is there, and take a print-out with you. With luck, this will
magically ward off any need for the information; as a precaution, it can't
hurt.
Also, <http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/niger/1143/csgas.html>:
Dealing with CS Gas (Tear Gas)
Gas mask- only use current military or police designs. Don't try any old
ones you may come across in markets or army surplus stores as many used
asbestos in the filters!
Mask/hood- offer limited protection. Also useful for disguise
Goggles- for eye protection.
Neutralizer #1- Carry a bottle of solution made up from water with 5%
Baking Soda.
Neutralizer #2- Carry a bottle of solution made up from water and sodium
metabisulphate (sold as Campden tablets used in home brewing). Note, this
needs to be made fresh and doesn't work if over a day old. If you are
asthmatic tell the people around you before the action starts, so that if
when sprayed you have a bad reaction they'll be able to act appropriately by
giving you your medication or getting a doctor.
What to do when sprayed If you are in the line of spray move backwards out
of range rather than sideways where the spray may still be able to reach
you. If you are in a building move outside. Your eyesight may become
blurred and it is easy to lose awareness of what is going on. Do not run
blindly into the arms of the police, or worse still, into traffic. Act
calmly and stay aware of your surroundings whilst moving to a safe area.
If possible stand upwind of where the spraying happened and expose the
affected part of your body to the wind. This will help disperse the gas
quickly.
Flush the affected area of the body with the solution mentioned earlier or
just water if this is not available. Do not touch it as you will spread the
chemical around and rub it into your pores. It may be possible hat you can
rejoin the action right away, as small amounts should only affect you for a
few minutes.
ASAP, have a cold shower for 3-5 minutes (hot water opens the pores and
allows gas particles in), then proceed with normal showering. Showers flush
the chemical away whilst a bath will just re-distribute it.
For gross contamination, wash with Neutralizer as mentioned above.
After the action you should hang your clothes up in a well ventilated area
to disperse the last remnants of the gas. When they have hung for a day or
so wash them twice- first in cold and then in hot water-and they'll be okay
to wear again.
CS Gas is fat soluble so never coat your skin in petroleum jelly or similar
substances for protection as some people have tried. When sprayed do not
treat the area with any cream, jelly or ointment, unless advised to by
someone who knows what they are talking about. The best treatments are air,
cold water and time.
References
Do or Die Editorial Collective. "Do or Die No. 7 Voices from Earth First!"
Headquarters, Department of the Army. Nov. 1985. "FM 19-15 Civil
Disturbances"
Hoffman, Abbie. 1996. "steal this book". Four Walls Eight Windows
--
Gary Farber New York
gfa...@savvy.com
P Nielsen Hayden
Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>On 18 Jan 2001 19:22:55 GMT,
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> scripsit:
>>On 18 Jan 2001 18:54:38 GMT,
>> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>>>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
>>
>>Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
>
>
>>I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
>>serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
>>citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
>>by shooting at demonstrators.
>
>control of these things.
>
>It's a question of what stories the folks doing the standing in lines
>are telling themselves, and that's very much an open question.
>
>>It's our country, it's our capital, we're law-abiding citizens, we're
>>perfectly entitled to be there. Yes, we shout be prepared, like good
>>Scouts. But I don't think it's sensible to start whipping ourselves
>>up into this kind of fear. That's where _they_ want us. Jeez, have
>>some sense.
>
>president-designate as a coup, do you mean that?
Yes, Graydon. Not only that, I generally mean most of the words I
type. But thank you for checking as to whether I was lying or playing
some kind of trick.
P Nielsen Hayden
Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>In a lot of ways, the tenor of any large public function depends on
>the stories the participants are telling themselves about how it will
>turn out.
Yes, and that's why I think what you and some other people are doing
here is a little less than helpful, and I wish you'd cool it with the
alarmist talk. Sure, it's good to be prepared. It's also good to
have the everyday confidence that comes from taking one's legitimacy
for granted.
Jo Walton
Calm down?
That's not questioning your intentions in using the word, that's
questioning whether you've considered all the implications in terms
of what political liberties you have now if that word represents
reality.
John Moreno once gave the answer "CNN" to my question of "Quis custodes?"
meaning that abuse isn't possible if the attention of the world is
focused on something.
I wouldn't be so sure that holds any more, after the election.
I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Dave Weingart
>people you are protesting against do not care about your rights or
I don't believe it's a coup. Although I'll grant "theft." And I'm betting
that even the Rabid Right knows that mass violence on the part of
Hail-to-the-Thief (or his handlers) would be the surest way to bring
him down ASAP.
>validity. It is completely clear, whatever you call the events in
>question, that they have a lot of media influence and lie habitually,
>comprehensively, with malice aforethought, and on basis of utterly
>ficitive scenarios which serve their ends.
This is true. But I don't think that it serves their ends. And I don't
particularly think that THEY think that.
Sue Mason
May I add, please all be careful, Velma's poor Mum igniting herself
was quite enough excitement for one month, thank you.
Sue Mason
s...@arctic-fox.freeserve.co.uk
Dragons, unicorns and pagan designs in wood at
http://www.plokta.com/woodlore/
Marilee J. Layman
Terence Gainer, the deputy chief in charge of this kind of thing, on
TV today compared the protesters to the Greenpeace folks who rappelled
down (I forget, Interior, probably) today and unfurled a banner saying
The Land is Ours. I think if he's prepared to equate all the
protesters to outlying groups like Greenpeace, there may be trouble.
--
Marilee J. Layman The Other*Worlds*Cafe
HOSTE...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group.
AOL Keyword: OWC http://www.webmoose.com/owc
Marilee J. Layman
>In a lot of ways, the tenor of any large public function depends on
>the stories the participants are telling themselves about how it will
>turn out.
The opening ceremonies at the Lincoln Memorial were about as well
attended as those at most cons. The TV people were saying it was
about a fifth of the number expected, and what appeared to be a fairly
large contingent were teenage girls there to see Ricky Martin.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>In article <947brc$a69$0...@216.39.145.104>, "Kate Schaefer" <ka...@oz.net> wrote:
>
>> Some probably unnecessary advice for youse guys going to
>> the inauguration:
>
>Predictions of snow are weakening my resolve.
Sleet and light snow was the last I saw. The snow isn't expected to
amount to much, but the sleet is worrisome.
Metro stations will have free parking, and you can buy one-day
Inaugural Passes for $5. Off-peak rates will be in effect.
A number of streets will be closed:
Urm. If that doesn't link up, just go to http://www.nbc4.com and
click on the Inauguration 2001 button.
Kate Schaefer
news:c14f6t4b8fgg7knui...@4ax.com...
> On 18 Jan 2001 19:22:55 GMT, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
> >On 18 Jan 2001 18:54:38 GMT,
> > Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
> >>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
> >
> >
> >Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
> >
> >I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
> >serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
> >citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
> >by shooting at demonstrators.
> >
> >It's our country, it's our capital, we're law-abiding citizens, we're
> >perfectly entitled to be there. Yes, we shout be prepared, like good
> >Scouts. But I don't think it's sensible to start whipping ourselves
> >up into this kind of fear. That's where _they_ want us. Jeez, have
> >some sense.
>
> Terence Gainer, the deputy chief in charge of this kind of thing, on
> TV today compared the protesters to the Greenpeace folks who rappelled
> down (I forget, Interior, probably) today and unfurled a banner saying
> The Land is Ours. I think if he's prepared to equate all the
> protesters to outlying groups like Greenpeace, there may be trouble.
There may, but I'm with Patrick. I meant my list to be the kind of reminder
that good Scouts use before going into the woods. Usually I come out of the
woods having eaten my emergency chocolate, but with the extra clothes,
matches, compass, and so forth unused. I'm still smug about having taken
them along.
Lenny Bailes
>
> On 18 Jan 2001 19:54:46 GMT,
> Dave Weingart <phyd...@liii.com> scripsit:
> >One day in Teletubbyland, gra...@dsl.ca said:
> >>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
> >>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot. The incoming
> >>adminstration _wants_ to appear authoritarian.
> >
> >Umm...I know that in the Graydonverse things aren't always quite in
> >synch with the world that most rasseffarians live in, but I think this
> >is a little over the top. (Actually, a fair amount over the top, I
> >don't think that there'll be rioting on either side during the Shrub's
> >inauguration. Sure, some incidents will occur, but grapeshot? Not a
> >chance.
>
> people you are protesting against do not care about your rights or
> validity. It is completely clear, whatever you call the events in
> question, that they have a lot of media influence and lie habitually,
> comprehensively, with malice aforethought, and on basis of utterly
> ficitive scenarios which serve their ends.
>
> that recognizes capability.
They don't have enough control of the press to prevent it from reporting
police brutality. And I believe they're smart enough to realize that
the public relations damage that would result from having that on
Inauguration Day would far outweigh any psychological satisfaction they
achieve by "showing the citizenry who's boss."
Later (when the spotlight is off the inauguration), it might well behoove
us to remember the unfortunate crowd management that produced
the Kent State shootings.
--
Lenny Bailes | len...@slip.net | http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~lennyb
Vicki Rosenzweig
>In article <slrn96emv...@pnh-0.dsl.speakeasy.net>
> p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
>
>> On 18 Jan 2001 19:54:41 GMT,
>> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
>> >When you folks are talking about the behaviour of the
>> >president-designate as a coup, do you mean that?
>>
>> Yes, Graydon. Not only that, I generally mean most of the words I
>> type. But thank you for checking as to whether I was lying or playing
>> some kind of trick.
>
>Calm down?
>
>That's not questioning your intentions in using the word, that's
>questioning whether you've considered all the implications in terms
>of what political liberties you have now if that word represents
>reality.
>
>John Moreno once gave the answer "CNN" to my question of "Quis custodes?"
>meaning that abuse isn't possible if the attention of the world is
>focused on something.
>
>I wouldn't be so sure that holds any more, after the election.
>
>I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
>I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
>awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
>incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
dulce et decorum.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Randolph Fritz
>On 18 Jan 2001 18:54:38 GMT,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
>>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
>
>
>Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
>
>I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
>serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
>citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
>by shooting at demonstrators.
>
Patrick, considering the history of violence against the left in the
USA, I think it's possible. :-( If John Ashcroft were Attorney General
(never, please god) it would be likely.
>
>It's our country, it's our capital, we're law-abiding citizens, we're
>perfectly entitled to be there. Yes, we shout be prepared, like good
>Scouts. But I don't think it's sensible to start whipping ourselves
>up into this kind of fear. That's where _they_ want us. Jeez, have
>some sense.
>
The problem is, fear will make the matter worse. Gandhi's strategy of
ahimsa was based on a willingness to sacrifice. So...who is willing
to be arrested, hey? Because it may happen, and there may be a
beating in the process as well. :-(
Randolph
Priscilla H. Ballou
> I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
> I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
> awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
> incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
They'd find my Amtrak return ticket to Boston (upgraded to Business
Class, no less) on my bullet-riddled corpse, but then they'd never
advertise that!
Priscilla, who demonstrates somewhat differently in her late 40s than
she did in her late teens!
--
In the end, there were only five votes which counted.
Priscilla H. Ballou
av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
> In article <947brc$a69$0...@216.39.145.104>, "Kate Schaefer" <ka...@oz.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Some probably unnecessary advice for youse guys going to
> > the inauguration:
>
> Predictions of snow are weakening my resolve.
Last I heard DC was getting rain, not snow.
Priscilla, packing her second best umbrella
mike weber
>On 18 Jan 2001 18:54:38 GMT,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
>>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
>
>
>Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
>
>I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
>serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
>citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
>by shooting at demonstrators.
That comes at the *Second* Inaugural.
--
"My Lords, as one who has been treated in a most unseemly
fashion by the pigeons in Trafalgar Square, may I stand up
for their right to do the same to anyone who follows in my
footsteps." Lord Jenkins of Putney, addressing the House
of Lords.
==========================================================
mike weber kras...@mindspring.com
http://weberworld.virtualave.net
mike weber
typed
>Quoth J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) on Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:46:34 GMT:
>
>>I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
>>I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
>>awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
>>incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
>
>I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
>dulce et decorum.
I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
Bay -- right next to the Alfred-E-Neuman-as-Uncle-Sam poster that said
"Who Needs You?"
mike weber
>I've lived in Washington for over 30 years. I've even done a bit of
>marching myself. Demos and marches are something we are quite used to
>in this capital city, something our police are expected to and trained
>to handle with good sense and restraint. I'd bet against headbashing
>and grapeshot without hesitation. The world is looking on, ya know.
>
Actually, i'm not so sure -- from the sound of the official
preparations, it sounds as if press coverage might be difficult.
Far be it from the Republicans to try to make it difficult to report
on anti-Shrum demos, of course...
David T. Bilek
wrote:
>On 18 Jan 2001 19:22:55 GMT, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>>On 18 Jan 2001 18:54:38 GMT,
>> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>>>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
>>
>>
>>Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
>>
>>I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
>>serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
>>citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
>>by shooting at demonstrators.
>>
>
>Patrick, considering the history of violence against the left in the
>USA, I think it's possible. :-( If John Ashcroft were Attorney General
>(never, please god) it would be likely.
>
I think that sort of thing is exactly what Patrick is responding to.
If John Ashcroft were Attorney General, it might well lead to policy
changes you or I disagree with.
It wouldn't even come remotely close to making it *likely* that
protestors would be gunned down.
-David
P Nielsen Hayden
>On 18 Jan 2001 19:22:55 GMT, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>>On 18 Jan 2001 18:54:38 GMT,
>> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>I would plan for live wireless feeds out, if at all possible, and
>>>would not take a bet against the use of grapeshot.
>>
>>
>>Oh, bullshit, Graydon.
>>
>>I am as suspicious of the police as anyone, but all this kind of talk
>>serves to do is scare people away from demonstrating like good
>>citizens. I -really- do not think the incoming Bushies want to start
>>by shooting at demonstrators.
>>
>
>Patrick, considering the history of violence against the left in the
>USA, I think it's possible. :-( If John Ashcroft were Attorney General
>(never, please god) it would be likely.
Do you seriously think Ashcroft is not going to be AG? That said, I
am very familiar with the history of violence against the left.
>>It's our country, it's our capital, we're law-abiding citizens, we're
>>perfectly entitled to be there. Yes, we shout be prepared, like good
>>Scouts. But I don't think it's sensible to start whipping ourselves
>>up into this kind of fear. That's where _they_ want us. Jeez, have
>>some sense.
>>
>
>The problem is, fear will make the matter worse. Gandhi's strategy of
>ahimsa was based on a willingness to sacrifice. So...who is willing
>to be arrested, hey? Because it may happen, and there may be a
>beating in the process as well. :-(
Yeah yeah yeah, let's all whine and moan and romanticize the pain that
hasn't happened to us yet.
I _am_ perfectly willing to be arrested. I don't particularly expect
to be. If I am, I'll deal with what comes. I want my allies to be
happy warriors, not sad sacks.
Then again, I want to _win_ and _make changes_ and _go back to normal
life_, not spend my life in the shadow world of oppositionism. Other
people evidently feel differently.
gfa...@savvy.com
mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[. . .]
> I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
> VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
> Bay
The Bhob Stewart covers were wonderful, but ultimately I think _Innuendo_
was the greater zine.
It certainly was a wonderful thing that you were so faanish, though.
[. . . .]
gfa...@savvy.com
[. . .]
> Later (when the spotlight is off the inauguration), it might well behoove
> us to remember the unfortunate crowd management that produced
> the Kent State shootings.
ObJustice: and Jackson State.
gfa...@savvy.com
> Do you seriously think Ashcroft is not going to be AG?
At this moment, I'd say there's about a ten percent chance he won't be.
Maybe fifteen, if I feel optimistic.
Ronnie White testifies in the morning.
[. . . .]
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>The problem is, fear will make the matter worse. Gandhi's strategy of
>ahimsa was based on a willingness to sacrifice. So...who is willing
>to be arrested, hey? Because it may happen, and there may be a
>beating in the process as well. :-(
There will be a lot of non-DC police there, but I don't think the DC
police do much beating. Watch out for the Prince Georges police,
though. What the DC police do is to round up anybody at hand and sort
them out later.
Marilee J. Layman
>I _am_ perfectly willing to be arrested. I don't particularly expect
>to be. If I am, I'll deal with what comes. I want my allies to be
>happy warriors, not sad sacks.
Elisha, the teenager who cleans for me, is coming down with Mary Kay.
She's been on her own to the IMF/World Bank protest and to the Gay
Pride parade, and she's quite bright & independent, you guys won't
have to babysit her. Her mom, Corinna, told me that her dad was
worried she'd be arrested. Corinna and I said at the same time "if
she's arrested, she's arrested." Someone will have to go bail her
out.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>They don't have enough control of the press to prevent it from reporting
>police brutality. And I believe they're smart enough to realize that
>the public relations damage that would result from having that on
>Inauguration Day would far outweigh any psychological satisfaction they
>achieve by "showing the citizenry who's boss."
To prevent it *immediately*, at least. With the IMF/World Bank
protest, they arrested reporters, too. They had their press badges
and so forth, but everybody in the vicinity was arrested and they
sorted them out later.
Marilee J. Layman
<vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
>In article <avram-18010...@manhattan.crossover.com>,
>av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
>
>> In article <947brc$a69$0...@216.39.145.104>, "Kate Schaefer" <ka...@oz.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Some probably unnecessary advice for youse guys going to
>> > the inauguration:
>>
>> Predictions of snow are weakening my resolve.
>
>
>Last I heard DC was getting rain, not snow.
The prediction from two hours ago is rain until about 9am, then sleet,
then snow about noon.
Bruce Baugh
wrote:
> Then again, I want to _win_ and _make changes_ and _go back to normal
> life_, not spend my life in the shadow world of oppositionism. Other
> people evidently feel differently.
I've come to the conclusion that there's a qualitative difference
between people who want what you describe above (and which I want for my
causes) and people who don't. It runs deeper, I think, than assessment
of whether victory on any given point seems possible or probable; the
desire or lack thereof shapes the assessment.
I don't want to push this comparison very far at all, but there's some
analogy in the situation of people with chronic disabilities. Some folks
dream of managing their condition as effectivey as possibe; others dream
of being well. I find aiming for health worthwhile.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> bruce...@sff.net
Writer of Fortune
I'm a professional vulture/haruspex, presenting pop culture's entrails
to the world as nicely arranged hors d'ouevres. Er, I mean, I'm a writer.
David G. Bell
kras...@mindspring.com "mike weber" wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:36:05 -0500, Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org>
> typed
>
> >Quoth J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) on Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:46:34 GMT:
> >
>
> >>I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
> >>I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
> >>awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
> >>incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
> >
> >I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
> >dulce et decorum.
>
> I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
> VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
> Bay -- right next to the Alfred-E-Neuman-as-Uncle-Sam poster that said
> "Who Needs You?"
I know I have a copy of that poem somewhere, the one which uses the
'dulce et decorum' line, and you certainly can't take that use at face
value.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
We suffer as a society and a culture when we don't pay the true value of
goods and services delivered. We create a lack of production. Less good
music is recorded if we remove the incentive to create it. -- Courtney Love
Kip Williams
Send in the Masochist Brigade.
Well, come on. Folks were just saying that we should use our
nuttiest true believers, instead of marginalizing them. Now send
them in there to take a beating for the Kipper!
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Jo Walton
kras...@mindspring.com "mike weber" writes:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:36:05 -0500, Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org>
> typed
>
> >I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
> >dulce et decorum.
>
> I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
> VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
> Bay -- right next to the Alfred-E-Neuman-as-Uncle-Sam poster that said
> "Who Needs You?"
Do you know what the next line is, after "It is sweet and proper to die
for one's country"?
It's "He who runs away will die anyway, with a spear in his back".
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Jo Walton
v...@redbird.org "Vicki Rosenzweig" writes:
> Quoth J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) on Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:46:34 GMT:
>
> >I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
> >I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
> >awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
> >incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
>
> I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
> dulce et decorum.
If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
the rest of us about it.
Kristopher/EOS
>
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:58:31 -0800,
> Lenny Bailes <len...@slip.net> wrote:
>
>> They don't have enough control of the press to prevent it
>> from reporting police brutality. And I believe they're
>> smart enough to realize that the public relations damage
>> that would result from having that on Inauguration Day
>> would far outweigh any psychological satisfaction they
>> achieve by "showing the citizenry who's boss."
>
> To prevent it *immediately*, at least. With the
> IMF/World Bank protest, they arrested reporters, too.
> They had their press badges and so forth, but everybody
> in the vicinity was arrested and they sorted them out
> later.
News agencies and protestors should use the following
strategy: lots of people with cameras, concentrating
on getting the footage, each of them in or by a car,
some distance from the main goings-on, and with
someone there who's main job is to get the camera
person, or at least the tape/film, away from the
scene. Anyone know any bike messengers who will be
there?
Kristopher
Avedon Carol
>There may, but I'm with Patrick. I meant my list to be the kind of reminder
>that good Scouts use before going into the woods. Usually I come out of the
>woods having eaten my emergency chocolate, but with the extra clothes,
>matches, compass, and so forth unused. I'm still smug about having taken
>them along.
I usually did nothing other than dress with as much coverage as
possible and remove my earrings. This seemed to work, although I wish
I'd had warmer boots in '69. (Suede doesn't handle mud very well.)
Of course, I was younger, then.
--
I am reading from rec.arts.sf.fandom, where I am on-topic;
follow-ups are set accordingly, just in case.
Kate Schaefer
what would come through.
"This is Patrick, and we're waiting by the side of the road."
"We're still waiting by the side of the road. There are a lot of other
people waiting here with us."
"Vicki and Teresa are arguing about what Socrates would have said about
George W. Bush. We're still waiting by the side of the road."
"Vicki and Teresa are arguing about what Cicero would have said about George
W. Bush. We're still waiting by the side of the road."
"The other people waiting here asked us to tone it down. Vicki and Teresa
are arguing about what Plautus would have said about George W. Bush. We're
still waiting by the side of the road, but the other people have moved away
from us."
Randolph Fritz
>
>Do you seriously think Ashcroft is not going to be AG? That said, I
>am very familiar with the history of violence against the left.
>
I'm praying, Patrick. :-( And I know you are familiar with that
history, which made your response surprising to me.
>
>Yeah yeah yeah, let's all whine and moan and romanticize the pain that
>hasn't happened to us yet.
>
>I _am_ perfectly willing to be arrested. I don't particularly expect
>to be. If I am, I'll deal with what comes. I want my allies to be
>happy warriors, not sad sacks.
>
It won't hurt to take a few modest precautions, I'd say.
>
>Then again, I want to _win_ and _make changes_ and _go back to normal
>life_, not spend my life in the shadow world of oppositionism. Other
>people evidently feel differently.
>
Well. I have learned a new word.
Randolph
Alison Hopkins
Paul Ciszek wrote in message ...
>In article <3a686c82$0$35016$44a1...@news.net-link.net>,
>Kristopher/EOS <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote:
>>
>>News agencies and protestors should use the following
>>strategy: lots of people with cameras, concentrating
>>on getting the footage, each of them in or by a car,
>>some distance from the main goings-on, and with
>>someone there who's main job is to get the camera
>>person, or at least the tape/film, away from the
>>scene. Anyone know any bike messengers who will be
>>there?
>
>yet several somewhere elses, via the internet. Are there such things?
>
Digicam, then either download to laptop and upload via a mini dish satellite
feed, or over a private mobile data network. Or, do same via data enabled
digicam. As done by mountain climbers, and explorer types. <g>
Ali
mike weber
>In article <3a67d0b8...@news.alltel.net>
>mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>> I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
>> VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
>> Bay
>
>The Bhob Stewart covers were wonderful, but ultimately I think _Innuendo_
>was the greater zine.
>
>It certainly was a wonderful thing that you were so faanish, though.
>
Ummm -- i came up with the idea on my own and executed it myself.
I was not particularly fannish in those days, though i was a reader
and had attended the '66 and '67 WorldCons.
What did i not know about then that i don't know specifically about
now?
I had a Lieutenant JG ask me what it meant when we had a barracks
inspection once and i forgot to take it down...
mike weber
typed
>In article <3a67d0b8...@news.alltel.net>
> kras...@mindspring.com "mike weber" writes:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:36:05 -0500, Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org>
>> typed
>>
>> >I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
>> >dulce et decorum.
>>
>> I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
>> VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
>> Bay -- right next to the Alfred-E-Neuman-as-Uncle-Sam poster that said
>> "Who Needs You?"
>
>Do you know what the next line is, after "It is sweet and proper to die
>for one's country"?
>
>It's "He who runs away will die anyway, with a spear in his back".
>
At the time i did the poster, he who ran away would probably wind up
in Canada or Sweden.
BTW -- are you quoting the original Latin source, or the poem whose
author i cannot recall that used the phrase to cap each stanza (as i
remember it.)
mike weber
<mjla...@erols.com> typed
>Elisha, the teenager who cleans for me, is coming down with Mary Kay.
>She's been on her own to the IMF/World Bank protest and to the Gay
>Pride parade, and she's quite bright & independent, you guys won't
>have to babysit her. Her mom, Corinna, told me that her dad was
>worried she'd be arrested. Corinna and I said at the same time "if
>she's arrested, she's arrested." Someone will have to go bail her
>out.
>
My nephew -- the eldest of four -- would be going if he had any
possible way. Which is to say, that was the situation as of last
Sunday, when my sister's family was through.
Since then he may have found a way to go.
[This is the one who went vegetarian (and shortly subsequently vegan)
on his own at about age eleven...]
I'd guess that both my sister and my brother-in-law would respond as
you and your helper's mother did.
mike weber
<eosl...@net-link.net> typed
>News agencies and protestors should use the following
>strategy: lots of people with cameras, concentrating
>on getting the footage, each of them in or by a car,
>some distance from the main goings-on, and with
>someone there who's main job is to get the camera
>person, or at least the tape/film, away from the
>scene. Anyone know any bike messengers who will be
>there?
>
Nope. Live links from camerapersons to network trucks and/or local
affiliates, if possible, or links to others carrying unobtrusive
recording gear who would remain on the outskirts of things, or even
links to people on the outskirts with repeaters to trucks.
The technology is there.
Mike Kozlowski
mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:29:39 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
>typed
>>Do you know what the next line is, after "It is sweet and proper to die
>>for one's country"?
>>It's "He who runs away will die anyway, with a spear in his back".
>
>BTW -- are you quoting the original Latin source, or the poem whose
>author i cannot recall that used the phrase to cap each stanza (as i
>remember it.)
The poem's by Wilfred Owen, and the phrase appears at the end of the poem:
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."
I assume Jo's quoting the original Latin source (though I don't know what
source it is).
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Mike Kozlowski
>mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:29:39 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
>>typed
>
>>>Do you know what the next line is, after "It is sweet and proper to die
>>>for one's country"?
>>>It's "He who runs away will die anyway, with a spear in his back".
>>
>>BTW -- are you quoting the original Latin source, or the poem whose
>>author i cannot recall that used the phrase to cap each stanza (as i
>>remember it.)
>
>source it is).
Of course, if I'd think to look at Google before I post, I'd look a bit
less like an uncultured ruffian. It's from Horace:
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori:
mors et fugacem persequitur virum,
nec parcit imbellis iuventae
poplitibus timidove tergo.
Desirable and glorious is a death
for one's country: death follows even after the man who runs away and
does not spare the knees and timid back of a spiritless youth.
gfa...@savvy.com
This sort of thing is, in fact, being done by some of the protest groups;
there was an AP article up about it last night. Um, hold on.
Oh, drat, it seems to have been updated out of easy access. Please forgive
that I don't want to spend a lot of time searching for an old AP story.
But on other fronts of digital tech being used for protests:
<http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Estrada-Cyber-Battle.html>
David G. Bell
pci...@antiabuseworld.std.com "Paul Ciszek" wrote:
> In article <3a686c82$0$35016$44a1...@news.net-link.net>,
> Kristopher/EOS <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote:
> >
> >News agencies and protestors should use the following
> >strategy: lots of people with cameras, concentrating
> >on getting the footage, each of them in or by a car,
> >some distance from the main goings-on, and with
> >someone there who's main job is to get the camera
> >person, or at least the tape/film, away from the
> >scene. Anyone know any bike messengers who will be
> >there?
>
> Best would be cameras with wireless links to *somewhere else*. Better
> yet several somewhere elses, via the internet. Are there such things?
<absurd paranoia>
Have you ever wondered why Iridium closed shop, and Bluetooth has been
so slow getting started?
</absurd paranoia>
David G. Bell
<slrn96h290....@panix6.panix.com>
rand...@panix.com "Randolph Fritz" wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2001 05:38:06 GMT, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >I _am_ perfectly willing to be arrested. I don't particularly expect
> >to be. If I am, I'll deal with what comes. I want my allies to be
> >happy warriors, not sad sacks.
> >
>
> It won't hurt to take a few modest precautions, I'd say.
Some of the stuff I've seen in this thread looks pretty wild, but I hope
that anyone who intends to be involved in any organised First Aid
provision is getting good info about tear-gas self-protection and
treatment.
But I don't know what there would be at such an event in the US, or who
provides emergency ambulance services.
Paul T. Riddell
President telling the people of the world "Uh, this is so cool. Huh huh
huh huh." Time to buy your copy of "Beavis and Butt-Head Do America"
now, before it becomes too prophetic...
Cordially,
Paul T. Riddell
The Healing Power of Obnoxiousness:
The Paul T. Riddell Essay Archive
http://www.hpoo.com
"Mars Pathfinders and Cool Comics For Free: Check out the Contest
section for details"
P Nielsen Hayden
mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 19 Jan 2001 05:55:10 GMT, gfa...@savvy.com typed
>
>>In article <3a67d0b8...@news.alltel.net>
>>mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>[. . .]
>>> I had a poster with those three words with a big, paint-dripping red
>>> VOID stencilled across them in my cubicle in the Barracks at Cam Ranh
>>> Bay
>>
>>The Bhob Stewart covers were wonderful, but ultimately I think _Innuendo_
>>was the greater zine.
>>
>>It certainly was a wonderful thing that you were so faanish, though.
>>
>Ummm -- i came up with the idea on my own and executed it myself.
>
>I was not particularly fannish in those days, though i was a reader
>and had attended the '66 and '67 WorldCons.
>
>What did i not know about then that i don't know specifically about
>now?
Gary is being fey. VOID was the name of a major fannish fanzine,
founded by Greg and Jim Benford and eventually edited by a crew of
co-editors that ultimately included Greg Benford, Peter Graham, Ted
White, and Terry Carr.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
David G. Bell
m...@klio.org "Mike Kozlowski" wrote:
Just to complete the set, here's the poem that I think MW is recalling.
----
Dulce Et Decorum Est
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime. -
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
and watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
--Wilfred Owen
----
Wilfred Owen died on the Western Front, a week before the Armistice.
Jo Walton
kras...@mindspring.com "mike weber" writes:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:29:39 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
> typed
>
> >Do you know what the next line is, after "It is sweet and proper to die
> >for one's country"?
> >
> >It's "He who runs away will die anyway, with a spear in his back".
> >
> At the time i did the poster, he who ran away would probably wind up
> in Canada or Sweden.
>
> BTW -- are you quoting the original Latin source, or the poem whose
> author i cannot recall that used the phrase to cap each stanza (as i
> remember it.)
Horace Odes III, ii:
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
mors et fugacem persequitor virum
nec parcit imbellis iuventae
poplitibus timidoque tergo.
I suspect Wilfred Owen knew the rest of it perfectly well.
Matthew Austern
> News agencies and protestors should use the following
> strategy: lots of people with cameras, concentrating
> on getting the footage, each of them in or by a car,
> some distance from the main goings-on, and with
> someone there who's main job is to get the camera
> person, or at least the tape/film, away from the
> scene. Anyone know any bike messengers who will be
> there?
News agencies don't have that kind of money. One of the
reasons that news is so bad in this country, and that it
often just takes the form of reprinting press releases
given to you by the government or some other well-funded
organization, is that doing it right takes a lot of money.
If the press is given the choice between spending three
times as much money to cover a protest as it does now,
or else covering the protest poorly, I would expect it
to choose the latter almost every time.
mike weber
Okay, VOID i've heard of. I was wondering if there was a cover for it
that i hadn't heard of...
mike weber
typed
>In article <3a68977c...@news.alltel.net>
> kras...@mindspring.com "mike weber" writes:
>> BTW -- are you quoting the original Latin source, or the poem whose
>> author i cannot recall that used the phrase to cap each stanza (as i
>> remember it.)
>
>Horace Odes III, ii:
>
>Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
>mors et fugacem persequitor virum
>nec parcit imbellis iuventae
>poplitibus timidoque tergo.
>
>I suspect Wilfred Owen knew the rest of it perfectly well.
>
I'm sure he did.
And, while, as Shel Silverstein rather more recently phrased it:
You can get an AIDS test
Enroll in EST and move out West
Where it's healthy and dry and you live to be a hundred --
But you're still gonna die.
whether or not dying for my country is the more proper and sweet death
is something i'll want to work out on a case-by-case basis...
mike weber
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> typed
>
>Paul Ciszek wrote in message ...
>>Best would be cameras with wireless links to *somewhere else*. Better
>>yet several somewhere elses, via the internet. Are there such things?
>>
>
>
>Digicam, then either download to laptop and upload via a mini dish satellite
>feed, or over a private mobile data network. Or, do same via data enabled
>digicam. As done by mountain climbers, and explorer types. <g>
>
There are analog link setups with ranges of a few hundred miles to a
quarter mile or more. A repeater carried by somenone not in the line
of fire would boost that distance considerably.
Marilee J. Layman
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 05:08:43 GMT, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
><vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <avram-18010...@manhattan.crossover.com>,
>>av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <947brc$a69$0...@216.39.145.104>, "Kate Schaefer" <ka...@oz.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Some probably unnecessary advice for youse guys going to
>>> > the inauguration:
>>>
>>> Predictions of snow are weakening my resolve.
>>
>>
>>Last I heard DC was getting rain, not snow.
>
>The prediction from two hours ago is rain until about 9am, then sleet,
>then snow about noon.
As of now, it's drizzle most of the day, turning to snow about 5pm.
--
Marilee J. Layman The Other*Worlds*Cafe
HOSTE...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group.
AOL Keyword: OWC http://www.webmoose.com/owc
Bruce Baugh
db...@zhochaka.org.uk wrote:
> Some of the stuff I've seen in this thread looks pretty wild, but I hope
> that anyone who intends to be involved in any organised First Aid
> provision is getting good info about tear-gas self-protection and
> treatment.
I've seen this advice being given out to folks taking part in all kinds
of public gatherings, including little-old-lady church-type gatherings
ift hey're going to be protesting something. The militarization of
police attitudes is something that messes up a lot of folks one wouldn't
ordinarily think of as being susceptible to tear-gassing.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> bruce...@sff.net
Writer of Fortune
I'm a professional vulture/haruspex, presenting pop culture's entrails
to the world as nicely arranged hors d'ouevres. Er, I mean, I'm a writer.
mike weber
("David G. Bell") typed
>
>Just to complete the set, here's the poem that I think MW is recalling.
>
> ----
>
>Dulce Et Decorum Est
>
>Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
>Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge
>Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
>And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
>Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
>But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
>Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
>Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
<snip>
that the one, all right.
>
>Wilfred Owen died on the Western Front, a week before the Armistice.
>
Robert W Service, another whose poems give some feel for that Hell on
Earth, lost an arm; i believe he was an ambulance driver.
Kristopher/EOS
>
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:33:47 -0500, Kristopher/EOS
> <eosl...@net-link.net> typed
>
>> News agencies and protestors should use the following
>> strategy: lots of people with cameras, concentrating
>> on getting the footage, each of them in or by a car,
>> some distance from the main goings-on, and with
>> someone there who's main job is to get the camera
>> person, or at least the tape/film, away from the
>> scene. Anyone know any bike messengers who will be
>> there?
>
> Nope. Live links from camerapersons to network trucks
> and/or local affiliates, if possible, or links to others
> carrying unobtrusive recording gear who would remain on
> the outskirts of things, or even links to people on the
> outskirts with repeaters to trucks.
>
> The technology is there.
The idea is the same though: footage that can escape,
visual proof that can't "disappear."
Kristopher
mike weber
<eosl...@net-link.net> typed
>mike weber wrote:
>>
>> The technology is there.
>
>The idea is the same though: footage that can escape,
>visual proof that can't "disappear."
>
I forgot if it was live or on film, but i remember the 1968 footage of
a Chicago cop macing and then clubbing a news cameraman without
noticing (or, quite possibly caring) that another camera was watching.
mike weber
<mjla...@erols.com> typed
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:35:05 -0500, Marilee J. Layman
><mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>The prediction from two hours ago is rain until about 9am, then sleet,
>>then snow about noon.
>
>As of now, it's drizzle most of the day, turning to snow about 5pm.
>
In 1973 it was a brilliantly clear day, but tyhere were a couple of
feet of snow on the gtound, as i recall.
And it was *cold*.
Huddle-round-the-trashcan-full-of-burning-signs cold.
Kristopher/EOS
>
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:17:01 -0500, Kristopher/EOS
> <eosl...@net-link.net> typed
>
>> mike weber wrote:
>
>>> The technology is there.
>>
>> The idea is the same though: footage that can escape,
>> visual proof that can't "disappear."
>>
> I forgot if it was live or on film, but i remember the
> 1968 footage of a Chicago cop macing and then clubbing
> a news cameraman without noticing (or, quite possibly
> caring) that another camera was watching.
I've seen several examples of that. For some reason, cops
seem to forget that the little box with the eye and the
red light can show other people what happened.
Kristopher
Ray Radlein
>
> Randolph Fritz wrote:
> >
> > The problem is, fear will make the matter worse. Gandhi's
> > strategy of ahimsa was based on a willingness to sacrifice.
> > So...who is willing to be arrested, hey? Because it may
> > happen, and there may be a beating in the process as well. :-(
>
> Send in the Masochist Brigade.
>
> Well, come on. Folks were just saying that we should use our
> nuttiest true believers, instead of marginalizing them. Now send
> them in there to take a beating for the Kipper!
And they can stay at the Disclave hotel when they get into town before
the Inauguration.
- Ray R.
--
***********************************************************************
"But at my back I alwaies hear
Magneto's minions hurrying near"
- Marvell Comics, "The Mysterious Men of X"
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
***********************************************************************
Alison Scott
>If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
>who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
>the rest of us about it.
I don't often do this, but, you know, AOL.
--
Alison Scott ali...@kittywompus.com & www.kittywompus.com
Victor Gonzalez for TAFF; remember to cast your TAFF vote
Ballot at http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Taff/taff2001.html
Ken MacLeod
<ali...@kittywompus.com> writes
>J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>
>>If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
>>who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
>>the rest of us about it.
>
>I don't often do this, but, you know, AOL.
>
Me too! Me too!
--
Ken MacLeod 'In the Beginning all the World was America ...'
John Locke, _Second Treatise of Government_
Kip Williams
>
> Kip Williams wrote:
> >
> > Randolph Fritz wrote:
> > >
> > > The problem is, fear will make the matter worse. Gandhi's
> > > strategy of ahimsa was based on a willingness to sacrifice.
> > > So...who is willing to be arrested, hey? Because it may
> > > happen, and there may be a beating in the process as well. :-(
> >
> > Send in the Masochist Brigade.
> >
> > Well, come on. Folks were just saying that we should use our
> > nuttiest true believers, instead of marginalizing them. Now send
> > them in there to take a beating for the Kipper!
>
> And they can stay at the Disclave hotel when they get into town before
> the Inauguration.
Is that to separate the true masochists from the ones who just like
to get beaten up a little?
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Lucy Kemnitzer
<k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <k8lg6tkdgh1866cpr...@4ax.com>, Alison Scott
><ali...@kittywompus.com> writes
>>J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>>
>>>If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
>>>who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
>>>the rest of us about it.
>>
>>I don't often do this, but, you know, AOL.
>>
>
>Me too! Me too!
I'm not going. I have to work. But I'm sending my husband and
son and son-of-my-friend-and-friend-of-my-son and maybe daughter
to the one in San Francisco, and I'm trying to meet up with the
little one at home.
It gets worse and worse, you know. I keep hearing bits of the
confirmation hearings on the radio, and it's beyond insulting what
monsters the Shrub is putting into his cabinet, and probably
getting away with.
But Kennedy just about promised a filibuster over Ashcroft, and
I'm proud of him at least.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Jo Walton
rit...@cruzio.com "Lucy Kemnitzer" writes:
> I'm not going. I have to work. But I'm sending my husband and
> son and son-of-my-friend-and-friend-of-my-son and maybe daughter
> to the one in San Francisco, and I'm trying to meet up with the
> little one at home.
>
> It gets worse and worse, you know. I keep hearing bits of the
> confirmation hearings on the radio, and it's beyond insulting what
> monsters the Shrub is putting into his cabinet, and probably
> getting away with.
>
> But Kennedy just about promised a filibuster over Ashcroft, and
> I'm proud of him at least.
The BBC just reported that the protesters are being very peaceful,
that they were kept from moving at all during the actual inauguration,
which made them angry. They didn't interview anyone, which was
disappointing. They also didn't talk about legitimacy at all, which
was even more disappointing.
Janet Kegg
>In article <9gdf6t8mtc5eglrrl...@4ax.com>
> v...@redbird.org "Vicki Rosenzweig" writes:
>
>> Quoth J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) on Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:46:34 GMT:
>>
>> >I wouldn't expect people demonstrating to be shot. But it if happens,
>> >I'm sure I'll be told by the Republicans and the media that they were
>> >awful immoral people, probably terrorists, activists, anarchists,
>> >incitors, bussed in from New York and Eugene to cause trouble.
>>
>> I don't expect it either. But if it comes to that, well,
>> dulce et decorum.
>
>If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
>who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
>the rest of us about it.
I arrived at the demo at Dupont Circle around 10. Lots of people who
_care_ and lots of creative signs and bits of street theatre.
I wandered around the fringes of the crowd around 11 and spotted a
group of folks that I thought might be *them* -- the rasseff
contingent. They looked, well, congenial and possibly fannish and even
vaguely familiar (maybe from pix I'd glimpsed on the Web). Aha! The
jacket with the Tor logo worn by the swarthy one removed any doubt.
Reminding my shy self that these were not strangers but friends I'd
not met yet, I approached Patrick and introduced myself.
I'm delighted to have met and chatted with Patrick, Teresa, Vicki,
Avrum, Kevin, Mary Kay, Lydia, and Jon (yes, that *Jon*) and can
report back to y'all that they are in good form and good spirits
(though perhaps a bit chilled from standing around too long in the
damp). Teresa finished making a terrific sign, they dithered a bit
more, and then headed towards the subway and on to Pennsylvania Avenue
to continue their protest.
I wimped out and came home to file this report.
-- Janet, reporting from Washington
-- Janet
David G. Bell
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" wrote:
> In article <3a69ad81...@enews.newsguy.com>
> rit...@cruzio.com "Lucy Kemnitzer" writes:
>
> > I'm not going. I have to work. But I'm sending my husband and
> > son and son-of-my-friend-and-friend-of-my-son and maybe daughter
> > to the one in San Francisco, and I'm trying to meet up with the
> > little one at home.
> >
> > It gets worse and worse, you know. I keep hearing bits of the
> > confirmation hearings on the radio, and it's beyond insulting what
> > monsters the Shrub is putting into his cabinet, and probably
> > getting away with.
> >
> > But Kennedy just about promised a filibuster over Ashcroft, and
> > I'm proud of him at least.
>
> The BBC just reported that the protesters are being very peaceful,
> that they were kept from moving at all during the actual inauguration,
> which made them angry. They didn't interview anyone, which was
> disappointing. They also didn't talk about legitimacy at all, which
> was even more disappointing.
After all the discussion here, I was left with the feeling that the BBC
were rather uncritically accepting the Republican line. Some of what
Bush said in his speech sounded quite good, if you hadn't picked up the
context of the campaign politics.
Rob Hansen
<k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <k8lg6tkdgh1866cpr...@4ax.com>, Alison Scott
><ali...@kittywompus.com> writes
>>J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>>
>>>If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
>>>who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
>>>the rest of us about it.
>>
>>I don't often do this, but, you know, AOL.
>>
>
>Me too! Me too!
What they said.
--
Rob Hansen
=============================================
Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
RE-ELECT GORE IN 2004.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>In article <3a69ad81...@enews.newsguy.com>
> rit...@cruzio.com "Lucy Kemnitzer" writes:
>
>> I'm not going. I have to work. But I'm sending my husband and
>> son and son-of-my-friend-and-friend-of-my-son and maybe daughter
>> to the one in San Francisco, and I'm trying to meet up with the
>> little one at home.
>>
>> It gets worse and worse, you know. I keep hearing bits of the
>> confirmation hearings on the radio, and it's beyond insulting what
>> monsters the Shrub is putting into his cabinet, and probably
>> getting away with.
>>
>> But Kennedy just about promised a filibuster over Ashcroft, and
>> I'm proud of him at least.
>
>The BBC just reported that the protesters are being very peaceful,
>that they were kept from moving at all during the actual inauguration,
>which made them angry. They didn't interview anyone, which was
>disappointing. They also didn't talk about legitimacy at all, which
>was even more disappointing.
Mary Kay is back (napping) and she said TNH was interviewed by a print
publication because of her sign. They thought the ratio of protesters
to observers was pretty equal, the rain keeping more observers away
than protesters.
The local NBC station political reporter pointed out that Bush has
already shown his deeds don't match his words. In the inaugural
address, he said something like "All citizens will have a voice," but
he had the DC Taxation Without Representation places taken off the
limo.
Avram Grumer
> I'm delighted to have met and chatted with Patrick, Teresa, Vicki,
> Avrum, Kevin, Mary Kay, Lydia, and Jon (yes, that *Jon*) and can...
^^^^^
I'm glad that someone with almost the same name as me could have been
there, even if I decided not to go.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | www.PigsAndFishes.org
If music be the food of love, then some of it be the Twinkies of
dysfunctional relationships.
Janet Kegg
Grumer wrote:
>In article <a9mj6to180n48p412...@4ax.com>, j...@his.com wrote:
>
>> I'm delighted to have met and chatted with Patrick, Teresa, Vicki,
>> Avrum, Kevin, Mary Kay, Lydia, and Jon (yes, that *Jon*) and can...
> ^^^^^
>I'm glad that someone with almost the same name as me could have been
>there, even if I decided not to go.
Whoops! *red face* (And apologies for the misspelling which I
noticed after I'd posted.)
And I owe someone else an apology. Who was that 8th rasseffarian? I
await further enlightenment. Which I expect very soon.
-- Janet,
Marilee J. Layman
<jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0500, Marilee J. Layman
><mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Mary Kay is back (napping) and she said TNH was interviewed by a print
>>publication because of her sign.
>
>What was on the sign?
Well, if I remembered, I'd have said in the first place! It was
something lit'ry. Someone will come along who remembers (Mary Kay is
back asleep now).
Doug Wickstrom
<396k6t4q8uicnn9qa...@4ax.com>
Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> excited the ether to say:
>The local NBC station political reporter pointed out that Bush has
>already shown his deeds don't match his words. In the inaugural
>address, he said something like "All citizens will have a voice," but
>he had the DC Taxation Without Representation places taken off the
>limo.
They weren't supposed to be on a government-owned vehicle in the
first place.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Every friend of freedom must be as revolted as I am by the prospect of
turning the United States into an armed camp, by the vision of jails filled
with casual drug users and of an army of enforcers empowered to invade the
liberty of citizens on slight evidence." --Milton Friedman
Vicki Rosenzweig
The eighth person was a guy named Owen, not a rassefarian but he
knows a couple of rassfen and wanted someone to march with. (I have
to put it that way because we never did find out his last name.)
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
P Nielsen Hayden
Janet Kegg <j...@his.com> wrote:
>I'm delighted to have met and chatted with Patrick, Teresa, Vicki,
>Avrum, Kevin, Mary Kay, Lydia, and Jon (yes, that *Jon*) and can
>report back to y'all that they are in good form and good spirits
>(though perhaps a bit chilled from standing around too long in the
>damp). Teresa finished making a terrific sign, they dithered a bit
>more, and then headed towards the subway and on to Pennsylvania Avenue
>to continue their protest.
It was great to meet you, and a nice surprise!
(The "that *Jon*" was, indeed, Jon Singer, who was already at Dupont
Circle when we got there; he phoned my cell phone, and we figured out
that we were about two hundred feet apart. Of course, cell phones are
only useful for showoffy display, you know.)
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
P Nielsen Hayden
>On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:09:55 -0500, Jon Meltzer
><jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0500, Marilee J. Layman
>><mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Mary Kay is back (napping) and she said TNH was interviewed by a print
>>>publication because of her sign.
>>
>>What was on the sign?
>
>Well, if I remembered, I'd have said in the first place!
The back side read "A POTEMKIN INAUGURAL FOR A FAKE PRESIDENT." But
the front side -- the side Teresa held right up to the barricades at
the corner of Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues until Bush and
Cheney drove past, read:
WE WILL NOT GET OVER IT
She got a lot of good responses to it as we walked from the Judiciary
Square Metro station to the parade route itself. And it seemed to get
photographed a fair bit.
Other moments from the day: The middle-aged guy wearing a Bush button,
who gestured at my "Re-Elect President Gore" button as he walked by
and said to his girlfriend, "Well, there's a Gore voter." I grinned
at him. "More of us than of you," I said.
My favorite signs:
* ILLEGITIMIBLE
* SHAME
* LORD HELP US
and the all-time best for sheer clarity:
* FACE IT, HE'S DUMBER THAN A BAG OF ROCKS
Then there's the guy who, as we approached Constitution Avenue down
Third Street, pointed at Teresa's "WE WILL NOT GET OVER IT" sign and
said "You're really holding a grudge, don't you know?"
A fair point, perhaps. Except that he was wearing a Confederate
uniform.
As Scraps later remarked, that has to be some kind of Olympic record
for total lack of self-knowledge.
The weather was lousy but not as bad as I'd feared. It definitely
seemed to decrease the Bush turnout and the tourist turnout more than
the protestor turnout.
The police we encountered all seemed sensible and easygoing. Our bags
were searched but not obnoxiously. Teresa was warned a ways before
the checkpoint that she'd have to take the stick off her sign, but in
fact the cops at the actual checkpoint didn't require this of her. At
the actual parade, a hard-eyed Secret Service guy did briefly look
with extreme alarm at her until he figured out that the long black
muzzle she was using to help prop the sign up was, in fact, an
umbrella. That was the sum of our interactions with law enforcement.
We got to the parade just as Bush's speech was winding up, and we
grabbed our spot; this meant we then waited nearly two hours for the
actual parade to start. It seemed to be much-delayed, both by
somewhat loose organization and by the weather. After everyone was
pretty much chilled to the bone (I was incredibly glad I'd brought a
spare pair of dry socks; quickly changing into them gave me an amazing
new lease on life), the big motorcade finally made its slow way down
Constitution Avenue from the north wing of the Capitol. It's quite a
sight -- the flying V of motorcycle cops moving with precise glacial
slowness while flashing all their lights. I thought about all the
emperors of antiquity and their grand processions; of course no
Tamburlaine or Xerxes or Caesar had half the power of the President of
the United States.
But when the motorcade finally got to us, what it resolved into was
very blurry and strange and American. The motorcycle cops and
marching soldiers were the best part. The regiment in
Revolutionary-era costumes were my favorite; combining that kind of
accurate re-creation with precision marching is one heck of a lot of
work. Following them were three very strange flatbed trucks covered
with media camerapersons, all shooting backwards into the ragtag
cluster of a dozen security vans.
Those vans were a sight in themselves. This is "the bubble." As
Teresa remarked, there was enough communications infrastructure and
enough weaponry there to successfully invade and hold a small
country. And following them were the long sleek black limos
containing the President and Vice President.
Which was the strangest thing. Both of them were in the backs of
their limos, windows rolled up. But Cheney, career pol that he is,
looked like a career pol. As admirers and protestors did their thing
(and we _were_ all mixed up -- our little clump contained us and a
bunch of Bush supporters, and we were all reasonably pleasant to one
another for the two hours we shared a few square feet of space),
Cheney had his face in the Politician's Position -- grinning, waving,
animated, looking like he was enjoying himself.
Bush didn't. For the ten seconds my eyes were on George W. Bush, he
was slumped in the back seat with his mouth half open, looking drained
and like he wanted to be anywhere else but here. I wasn't even sure
it was him -- and neither were the Bush supporters we were next to,
but the nice policewoman right in front of us confirmed that it was.
It makes you wonder. As I said later, "Do you suppose they took him
aside right after the swearing-in and told him what we _really_
promised in the treaty we signed with Arcturus in 1987?"
So it was an interesting day. What was most striking, ultimately, was
how many protestors there were, everywhere along the parade route, and
how entirely confident and cheerful and undefensive they seemed. As a
friend of Scraps's remarked, "this wasn't the usual protest industry,
the free-Mumia crowd. This was just pissed-off normal American
people." I'd say at least a fifth of the parade crowd were our
people, and the rest divided between tourists and Bush supporters.
Of course, when we got home and watched CNN, the only coverage of the
protests was of the one group that threw apples at the Presidential
limo and got predictably wrestled to the ground by the Secret Service.
(No doubt then tossed into the oubliette for a few body-cavity
searches after that.) You wouldn't have a clue from the TV coverege
that the protests were more than a few costumed loonies at Dupont
Circle and some black people listening to Al Sharpton at the Supreme
Court. Elsewhere it appears to be much the same. According to folks
we know in Tucson, the local media there covered a pro-life rally but
ignored the 350 people who turned up for a counter-inaugural demo at
the Federal courthouse. So it really does look like the fix is in
with major media. It's going to be a long slog. I predicted this
will affect the rest of our lives. I'm still predicting that.
John Dallman
Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
> Then there's the guy who, as we approached Constitution Avenue down
> Third Street, pointed at Teresa's "WE WILL NOT GET OVER IT" sign and
> said "You're really holding a grudge, don't you know?"
>
> A fair point, perhaps. Except that he was wearing a Confederate
> uniform.
>
> As Scraps later remarked, that has to be some kind of Olympic record
> for total lack of self-knowledge.
It's another example of what boggles me so much about so many Americans,
mostly, but by no means all, on the right of politics. They /know/ they're
right. They know that they are the chosen people, and hence it doesn't
matter if they're dumb, or ignorant, or failing to cope with the world -
they're Americans, so they're OK.
Now, many nations used to have this attitude. It seems to go with being
an imperial power, and it's an insidious problem eating from within; much
harder to overcome than external threats. The UK lost a large chunk of it
over WWI, and the rest over WWII and the retreat from empire. There aren't
many people with it left over here, apart from a certain strain of the
Conservative Party*, and there it can be hard to distinguish from the
egomania that's necessary to be a modern politician. A useful, although
not infallible, test is to ask them if their attitude to something is
politically motivated. If they say not, you may have an example of what
I'm talking about.
I don't know where this lack of intellectual self-questioning comes from;
it's commonplace in young children, of course, but education is supposed
to handle that. Isn't it?
> Bush didn't. For the ten seconds my eyes were on George W. Bush, he
> was slumped in the back seat with his mouth half open, looking drained
> and like he wanted to be anywhere else but here. I wasn't even sure
> it was him -- and neither were the Bush supporters we were next to,
> but the nice policewoman right in front of us confirmed that it was.
>
> It makes you wonder. As I said later, "Do you suppose they took him
> aside right after the swearing-in and told him what we _really_
> promised in the treaty we signed with Arcturus in 1987?"
Nah - the programmers probably decided that they didn't need to write
anything special, and then didn't realise in time that while they only
needed a ten-second loop, they did have to write that. Or else it just
crashed, and no one in the limo knew how to reboot him. George III -
America's first animatronic president!
[*] and some football "fans", where it can be hard to distinguish from
really extreme stupidity.
---
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk
Kip Williams
Anybody want a cartoon of a guy with a handful of knives telling a
guy with a knife in his back to get over it?
We were more than half the voters in the country. In Florida. We're
not sore losers, we're sore winners.
Ulrika O'Brien
j...@cix.co.uk says...
> In article <slrn96m7e...@pnh-0.dsl.speakeasy.net>, p...@panix.com (P
> Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
> > Then there's the guy who, as we approached Constitution Avenue down
> > Third Street, pointed at Teresa's "WE WILL NOT GET OVER IT" sign and
> > said "You're really holding a grudge, don't you know?"
> >
> > A fair point, perhaps. Except that he was wearing a Confederate
> > uniform.
> >
> > As Scraps later remarked, that has to be some kind of Olympic record
> > for total lack of self-knowledge.
>
> It's another example of what boggles me so much about so many Americans,
> mostly, but by no means all, on the right of politics. They /know/ they're
> right. They know that they are the chosen people, and hence it doesn't
> matter if they're dumb, or ignorant, or failing to cope with the world -
> they're Americans, so they're OK.
>
> Now, many nations used to have this attitude. It seems to go with being
> an imperial power, and it's an insidious problem eating from within; much
> harder to overcome than external threats. The UK lost a large chunk of it
> over WWI, and the rest over WWII and the retreat from empire. There aren't
> many people with it left over here, apart from a certain strain of the
> Conservative Party*
I think you may be forgetting Joseph Nicholas.
John Dallman
> In article <memo.2001012...@jgd.compulink.co.uk>,
> j...@cix.co.uk says...
> > It's another example of what boggles me so much about so many
> > Americans, mostly, but by no means all, on the right of politics.
> > They /know/ they're right. ... There aren't many people with it
> > left over here, apart from a certain strain of the Conservative
> > Party*
>
> I think you may be forgetting Joseph Nicholas.
I really hope that I'm right when I say that there is only one Joseph
Nicholas.
---
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk
David T. Bilek
wrote:
>Thanks for going, Patrick. Thanks for doing what you did.
>
>Anybody want a cartoon of a guy with a handful of knives telling a
>guy with a knife in his back to get over it?
>
>We were more than half the voters in the country. In Florida. We're
>not sore losers, we're sore winners.
>
Not to quibble with your main point or anything, but you were a
plurality of the voters in the country, not more than half. Nader
vote and all that.
-David
Kip Williams
Oh, you quibbler.
P Nielsen Hayden
>
>Anybody want a cartoon of a guy with a handful of knives telling a
>guy with a knife in his back to get over it?
Cartoon in this week's NEW YORKER:
Two figures at a counter. One cartoon-normal-guy (glasses, suit,
hat). One cartoon-bank-robber (jowly, unshaven, flat-topped hat, next
to large bag with "$" on it.) Bank-robber guys speaks, grinning:
"Of course it's stolen, but now we have to get on with our lives."
No one is in any doubt as to what this cartoon is about.
Martin Wisse
<k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <k8lg6tkdgh1866cpr...@4ax.com>, Alison Scott
><ali...@kittywompus.com> writes
>>J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>>
>>>If it were my country, I'd be going. I'm proud of all of you Rasseffarians
>>>who are going. Go safely, make a good showing, and come back and tell
>>>the rest of us about it.
>>
>>I don't often do this, but, you know, AOL.
>>
>
>Me too! Me too!
I would like to echo the previous speaker.
<fx: call from the audience "go on!">
Me too! Me too!
Martin Wisse
--
The series makes me think of those websites which keeps
opening new browser windows, and each of those windows
spawns more windows, until the whole system locks up.
Dan Krashin [about the Wheel of Time series]
Martin Wisse
<eosl...@net-link.net> wrote:
>mike weber wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:17:01 -0500, Kristopher/EOS
>> <eosl...@net-link.net> typed
>>
>>> mike weber wrote:
>>
>>>> The technology is there.
>>>
>>> The idea is the same though: footage that can escape,
>>> visual proof that can't "disappear."
>>>
>> I forgot if it was live or on film, but i remember the
>> 1968 footage of a Chicago cop macing and then clubbing
>> a news cameraman without noticing (or, quite possibly
>> caring) that another camera was watching.
>
>I've seen several examples of that. For some reason, cops
>seem to forget that the little box with the eye and the
>red light can show other people what happened.
Fabulous Furry Freek Brothers comic a while back:
Three or four policeman advancing on Fat Freddy holding a videocamera,
smiling broadly:
"My sir, that's a nice videocamera. Mind if we turn it off?"
Kip Williams
>
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:26:08 -0500, Kristopher/EOS
> <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote:
>
> >mike weber wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:17:01 -0500, Kristopher/EOS
> >> <eosl...@net-link.net> typed
> >>
> >>> mike weber wrote:
> >>
> >>>> The technology is there.
> >>>
> >>> The idea is the same though: footage that can escape,
> >>> visual proof that can't "disappear."
> >>>
> >> I forgot if it was live or on film, but i remember the
> >> 1968 footage of a Chicago cop macing and then clubbing
> >> a news cameraman without noticing (or, quite possibly
> >> caring) that another camera was watching.
> >
> >I've seen several examples of that. For some reason, cops
> >seem to forget that the little box with the eye and the
> >red light can show other people what happened.
>
> Fabulous Furry Freek Brothers comic a while back:
>
> Three or four policeman advancing on Fat Freddy holding a videocamera,
> smiling broadly:
>
> "My sir, that's a nice videocamera. Mind if we turn it off?"
Oh, that's good. How recent is that? I was just moaning quietly to
myself about how there's no Freak Brothers lately. And no Nard &
Pat, or any of the other classics undergrounders. (Except Crumb, who
exists in his own personal continuum now.)
David G. Bell
<slrn96m7e...@pnh-0.dsl.speakeasy.net> p...@panix.com
"P Nielsen Hayden" wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:16:59 -0500,
> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
> >On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:09:55 -0500, Jon Meltzer
> ><jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0500, Marilee J. Layman
> >><mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Mary Kay is back (napping) and she said TNH was interviewed by a print
> >>>publication because of her sign.
> >>
> >>What was on the sign?
> >
> >Well, if I remembered, I'd have said in the first place!
>
>
> The back side read "A POTEMKIN INAUGURAL FOR A FAKE PRESIDENT." But
> the front side -- the side Teresa held right up to the barricades at
> the corner of Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues until Bush and
> Cheney drove past, read:
>
> WE WILL NOT GET OVER IT
>
> She got a lot of good responses to it as we walked from the Judiciary
> Square Metro station to the parade route itself. And it seemed to get
> photographed a fair bit.
[snippage]
> Then there's the guy who, as we approached Constitution Avenue down
> Third Street, pointed at Teresa's "WE WILL NOT GET OVER IT" sign and
> said "You're really holding a grudge, don't you know?"
>
> A fair point, perhaps. Except that he was wearing a Confederate
> uniform.
>
> As Scraps later remarked, that has to be some kind of Olympic record
> for total lack of self-knowledge.
That really ought to be turned into a fanzine cover.
And I also have an image of a bunch of fans, seen from behind, looking
at the back of a cardboard cut-out crowd...
Martin Wisse
Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers #12. I misremembered, it was Phineas.
Copyright date says 1992. Available from Rip Off Press.
Martin Wisse
--
Sodom today -- Gomorrah the world
_The Star Fraction_, by Ken Macleod (taken from
a badge produced by the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association)
Avram Grumer
> (The "that *Jon*" was, indeed, Jon Singer, who was already at Dupont
> Circle when we got there; he phoned my cell phone, and we figured out
> that we were about two hundred feet apart. Of course, cell phones are
> only useful for showoffy display, you know.)
You can also use them for playing games.
I've discovered that people really _do_ talk louder on a cell phone. Or
at least two particular people I've happened to be next to in lines over
the past few weeks did. They would have a brief conversation on the
phone, then hang up and talk to the person next to them in a quieter
voice, consistently.
Marilee J. Layman
> So it really does look like the fix is in
>with major media. It's going to be a long slog. I predicted this
>will affect the rest of our lives. I'm still predicting that.
The local NBC station had video of an egg being thrown at the
presidential limo, and of a scuffle between some protesters & police,
saying that only one person was arrested.
Avram Grumer
> Of course, when we got home and watched CNN, the only coverage of the
> protests was of the one group that threw apples at the Presidential
> limo and got predictably wrestled to the ground by the Secret Service.
> (No doubt then tossed into the oubliette for a few body-cavity
> searches after that.) You wouldn't have a clue from the TV coverege
> that the protests were more than a few costumed loonies at Dupont
> Circle and some black people listening to Al Sharpton at the Supreme
> Court. Elsewhere it appears to be much the same. According to folks
> we know in Tucson, the local media there covered a pro-life rally but
> ignored the 350 people who turned up for a counter-inaugural demo at
> the Federal courthouse. So it really does look like the fix is in
> with major media. It's going to be a long slog. I predicted this
> will affect the rest of our lives. I'm still predicting that.
I started watching CNN around 1 PM, and I did see an interview with some
clearly sane, quiet protesters. I also saw footage of some protesters
tussling with the police, or maybe the Secret Service. But they did show
sane protesters. Maybe that segment was removed from the mix later on.
Watching that segment I really wished that I had gone. But I spent most
of today sick to the point of not being able to stand up for more than a
minute (I seem to be better now), so I'm probably better off having stayed
home.
Marilee J. Layman
<nims...@uswest.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0500, in message
><396k6t4q8uicnn9qa...@4ax.com>
> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> excited the ether to say:
>
>>The local NBC station political reporter pointed out that Bush has
>>already shown his deeds don't match his words. In the inaugural
>>address, he said something like "All citizens will have a voice," but
>>he had the DC Taxation Without Representation places taken off the
>>limo.
>
>They weren't supposed to be on a government-owned vehicle in the
>first place.
Sure they were. He's having regular DC plates put on.
mike weber
("David G. Bell") typed
>And I also have an image of a bunch of fans, seen from behind, looking
>at the back of a cardboard cut-out crowd...
>
Do that one in two half-height shots the full idth of the panel --
Top, angle from behind the Shrub as he swears the oath, showing the
crowd with a few fannish heads showing over shoulders.
Lower, exactly reverse angle from behind the fans, showing the
cardboard cut-out crowd and the Prez on the stand...
--
"My Lords, as one who has been treated in a most unseemly
fashion by the pigeons in Trafalgar Square, may I stand up
for their right to do the same to anyone who follows in my
footsteps." Lord Jenkins of Putney, addressing the House
of Lords.
==========================================================
mike weber kras...@mindspring.com
http://weberworld.virtualave.net