Re: Taking a sleeping room at a convention - was A quiet afternoon
Keith F. Lynch
> So yes -- for cons in the attrition range (which is something that's
> well possible to get into -- I know of many, including one or more
> recent Worldcons), that empty room can cost the con at least the two
> hundred dollars I stated above.
It can't cost the con less than it would cost to rent to the room at
the con rate, since the con itself can simply rent the room at the con
rate and either leave it empty or offer it as crash space for staff
and gofers.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ben Yalow
>Ben Yalow <yb...@panix.com> wrote:
>> So yes -- for cons in the attrition range (which is something that's
>> well possible to get into -- I know of many, including one or more
>> recent Worldcons), that empty room can cost the con at least the two
>> hundred dollars I stated above.
>It can't cost the con less than it would cost to rent to the room at
>the con rate, since the con itself can simply rent the room at the con
>rate and either leave it empty or offer it as crash space for staff
>and gofers.
And most rooms at a con cost well over two hundred dollars for the
weekend at the con rate.
>--
>Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
>Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ben
--
Ben Yalow yb...@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Karl Johanson
news:h2miv3$evi$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> Ben Yalow <yb...@panix.com> wrote:
>> So yes -- for cons in the attrition range (which is something that's
>> well possible to get into -- I know of many, including one or more
>> recent Worldcons), that empty room can cost the con at least the two
>> hundred dollars I stated above.
>
> It can't cost the con less than it would cost to rent to the room at
> the con rate, since the con itself can simply rent the room at the con
> rate and either leave it empty or offer it as crash space for staff
> and gofers.
I suggested that for a local con once. They would get a $1,500 or discount
from the hotel if x number of rooms were rented. I suggested renting the
last few to hit the number if need be, if the cost was less than the
discount. I was told by the con chair, "that's unethical." I didn't see any
ethical problems with the idea.
Karl Johanson
Keith F. Lynch
> I suggested that for a local con once. They would get a $1,500
> or discount from the hotel if x number of rooms were rented. I
> suggested renting the last few to hit the number if need be, if
> the cost was less than the discount. I was told by the con chair,
> "that's unethical." I didn't see any ethical problems with the idea.
Nor do I. Does anyone here?
Kay Shapero
> Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > I suggested that for a local con once. They would get a $1,500
> > or discount from the hotel if x number of rooms were rented. I
> > suggested renting the last few to hit the number if need be, if
> > the cost was less than the discount. I was told by the con chair,
> > "that's unethical." I didn't see any ethical problems with the idea.
>
> Nor do I. Does anyone here?
>
--
Kay Shapero
address munged, email kay at following domain
http://www.kayshapero.net
dougberry
mysterious "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> spoke thusly in
rec.arts.sf.fandom:
>Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> I suggested that for a local con once. They would get a $1,500
>> or discount from the hotel if x number of rooms were rented. I
>> suggested renting the last few to hit the number if need be, if
>> the cost was less than the discount. I was told by the con chair,
>> "that's unethical." I didn't see any ethical problems with the idea.
>
>Nor do I. Does anyone here?
Nope. Seems to be a pretty common practice to meet a price break. Just
use those rooms for extra staff crash space.
--
Douglas E. Berry dberryOB...@gmail.com
http://gridlore.livejournal.com
http://www.facebook.com/douglas.berry
Do the OBVIOUS thing to email.
"Well I'm not evil, I'm just good looking." - Alice Cooper
Andre Lieven
> The scrolls speak of the day, 5 Jul 2009 14:02:59 -0400, when the
> mysterious "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> spoke thusly in
> rec.arts.sf.fandom:
>
> >> I suggested that for a local con once. They would get a $1,500
> >> or discount from the hotel if x number of rooms were rented. I
> >> suggested renting the last few to hit the number if need be, if
> >> the cost was less than the discount. I was told by the con chair,
> >> "that's unethical." I didn't see any ethical problems with the idea.
>
> >Nor do I. Does anyone here?
>
> Nope. Seems to be a pretty common practice to meet a price break. Just
> use those rooms for extra staff crash space.
Works for me, too. Most cons could easily find all sorts of uses for
such rooms, from crash space for concom and staff, to additional
discussion meeting rooms.
At least that way, the con gets something for the money...
Andre
Tim McDaniel
wrote:
>The scrolls speak of the day, 5 Jul 2009 14:02:59 -0400, when the
>mysterious "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> spoke thusly in
>rec.arts.sf.fandom:
>
>>Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> I suggested that for a local con once. They would get a $1,500 or
>>> discount from the hotel if x number of rooms were rented. I
>>> suggested renting the last few to hit the number if need be, if
>>> the cost was less than the discount. I was told by the con chair,
>>> "that's unethical." I didn't see any ethical problems with the
>>> idea.
>>
>>Nor do I. Does anyone here?
>
>Nope. Seems to be a pretty common practice to meet a price break. Just
>use those rooms for extra staff crash space.
Private inurement can be a difficult subject, and I don't understand
it at all fully, so please don't take this as legal advice or as
something definitive.
If the con is run by a 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation in the US
(are there any?) there's a question of private inurement.
Explanations below, but if the space were used for the benefit of the
leaders or other sub-groups, not to advance the purposes of the
organization, it could end the tax-exempt status. Only thinking about
it a little, I believe that comping rooms to outside GoHs is fine, as
compensation for speeches, talks, &c; comping the con com is probably
not; comping gofers ... erm ... it might or might not be arms-reach,
but if the gofers are largely members of the people who run the club
that runs the con ....
I like cons run as public benefits, which is why I tend to dislike
cons for profit. So I'd like to see them run like such charities.
<http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=123297,00.html>
A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated
for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the
creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other
designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or
indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings
of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of
any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or
individual is a person having a personal and private interest in
the activities of the organization.
<http://www.tamus.edu/offices/budgets-acct/tax/taxmanual/Prvinur.html>
gives the current IRS three-part test,
In IRS Revenue Ruling 69-383 the IRS developed a three-part test for
determining whether a compensation arrangement results in prohibited
inurement.
* Is the compensation arrangement consistent with exempt purposes?
The compensation arrangement must be designed to further the
organization's exempt purposes, rather than to advance the
private interests of the individual being compensated.
* Is the compensation arrangement the result of arm's length
bargaining? Compensation arrangements must result either from
arm's-length negotiations between the employer and employee or
be pursuant to a plan or arrangement covering a broad class of
non-controlling or non-management employees. As to executives
and other controlling members of an exempt organization, the
organization must enforce policies and procedures designed to
prevent conflict of interest and ensure independent approval.
* Does the compensation arrangement result in reasonable
compensation? Whether compensation is reasonable is a question
of fact to be determined in light of all the circumstances. The
payments must be intended as compensation, rather than a
distribution of profits. Also, the compensation must be
equivalent to the value of services performed. The compensation
should relate to the requirements of the job, the amount of time
and effort expended in the job, and the individual's
qualifications.
...
Auditors are being directed to review for specific types of
transactions that indicate the possible existence of private
benefit or inurement. Targeted transactions include:
...
* payment of below market rents for space or equipment, if
provided by the institution to the insider;
...
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Keith F. Lynch
> <Doug Berry> wrote:
>> Nope. Seems to be a pretty common practice to meet a price break.
>> Just use those rooms for extra staff crash space.
> Private inurement can be a difficult subject, and I don't understand
> it at all fully, so please don't take this as legal advice or as
> something definitive.
If that's really an issue, the con could rent the rooms and leave them
empty -- or use them as additional function space.
> If the con is run by a 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation in the US
> (are there any?) there's a question of private inurement.
I think most SF cons in the US (or their parent organizations) are
501(c)(3). At least one, WSFA/Capclave, is 501(c)(4). (A few years
ago WSFA had at least three members who were attorneys who specialized
in federal tax law.)
> <http://www.tamus.edu/offices/budgets-acct/tax/taxmanual/Prvinur.html>
> gives the current IRS three-part test, ...
> Also, the compensation must be equivalent to the value of services
> performed. The compensation should relate to the requirements of
> the job, the amount of time and effort expended in the job, and the
> individual's qualifications.
Some charities, such as United Way, have executives who get very high
compensation, including multi-million-dollar pensions. I wonder how
many donors know this.
If "qualifications" means formal credentials, what a way to impose
credentialism by law. I hope it just means ability to do the job.