Jubilee
Morgan Gallagher
Some questions about the Jubilee in London:
Where is it? (As in, how do I get to it!)
and
Is it wheelchair accessible?
--
Morgan
"You may stop calling me your dear madam. I am not married, I am not French
and you haven't the slightest affection for me."
Bette Davis - The Corn Is Green
John Richards
Morgan Gallagher wrote:
>
> Some questions about the Jubilee in London:
>
> Where is it? (As in, how do I get to it!)
>
> and
>
> Is it wheelchair accessible?
York Road (the road that runs between Waterloo Station and the South
Bank).
From the Main Concourse on Waterloo Station there is a lift down to the
International Terminal from there follow the signs to the Taxi ranks and
procede to the end of that road. Turn right and left on to York Road.
The pub is a few yards ahead. You may have problems with a wheel chair
getting out of the road by the station as there is a contraption
designed to prevent people leaving with luggage trolleys. Similarly it
may be a squeeze to get through the pub doors and you'ld have more luck
with the furthest one.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Sandra Bond
In article <344362...@panorama.panorama.com>
jo...@panorama.panorama.com "John Richards" writes:
> Morgan Gallagher wrote:
> >
> > Some questions about the Jubilee in London:
> >
> > Where is it? (As in, how do I get to it!)
> >
> > and
> >
> > Is it wheelchair accessible?
>
> York Road (the road that runs between Waterloo Station and the South
> Bank).
>
> From the Main Concourse on Waterloo Station there is a lift down to the
> International Terminal from there follow the signs to the Taxi ranks and
> procede to the end of that road. Turn right and left on to York Road.
> The pub is a few yards ahead. You may have problems with a wheel chair
> getting out of the road by the station as there is a contraption
> designed to prevent people leaving with luggage trolleys. Similarly it
> may be a squeeze to get through the pub doors and you'ld have more luck
> with the furthest one.
>
Yup, that sums it up pretty well (assuming you go by train: I go by car).
Except to say that I'd love to meet you if you do make it, oh hermit star
of rasff...
Sandra
--
# "He never ever learned to read or write so well, but he could #
# play a guitar just like ringing a bell..." -- Chuck Berry #
# "Pity he couldn't play it like a guitar..." -- Ian Gunn #
################# -- San...@ho-street.demon.co.uk -- #################
Alison Scott
John Richards <jo...@panorama.panorama.com> wrote:
>From the Main Concourse on Waterloo Station there is a lift down to the
>International Terminal from there follow the signs to the Taxi ranks and
>procede to the end of that road. Turn right and left on to York Road.
>The pub is a few yards ahead. You may have problems with a wheel chair
>getting out of the road by the station as there is a contraption
>designed to prevent people leaving with luggage trolleys.
This is true, but the International Terminal is fully wheelchair
accessible and so you ought to be able to throw yourself weeping on
the shoulder of a nearby I. T. assistant.
>Similarly it
>may be a squeeze to get through the pub doors and you'ld have more luck
>with the furthest one.
This strikes me as being the greater problem, actually. In the summer
you'd have been fine as there were plenty of people outside, but I
think it'll be a bit cold for that by next month. Otherwise, there's
one step into the pub (as is so common).
--
Alison Scott ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk
I was assimilated by the Bontapus and all I got was this lousy novel
Morgan Gallagher
In article <3447ce69....@news.demon.co.uk>, Alison Scott
<ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk> writes
>This strikes me as being the greater problem, actually. In the summer
>you'd have been fine as there were plenty of people outside, but I
>think it'll be a bit cold for that by next month. Otherwise, there's
>one step into the pub (as is so common).
Thanks Alison. I knew you'd know about steps! Amazing what pushing
wheels around makes you realise.
We once turned up at a pub we'd been assured had 'flat' access, to find
five steps. With everybody standing around looking at them as if they'd
mushroomed in the night. They'd never noticed them before!
Now I just need to know about parking....
Morgan Gallagher
In article <876864...@ho-street.demon.co.uk>, Sandra Bond <Sandra@ho-
street.demon.co.uk> writes
>Yup, that sums it up pretty well (assuming you go by train: I go by car).
>Except to say that I'd love to meet you if you do make it, oh hermit star
>of rasff...
Hmmm...wonder if that was for John or for me.
It's all Jo Walton's fault anyway.
;-)
Mike Scott
>We once turned up at a pub we'd been assured had 'flat' access, to find
>five steps. With everybody standing around looking at them as if they'd
>mushroomed in the night. They'd never noticed them before!
>
>Now I just need to know about parking....
If you turn up sufficiently late (after 7pm, I *think*), it's legal to
park on the single yellow lines immediately outside the pub. However,
even after 7pm, it looks like a damned stupid place to park to me, and
*I* wouldn't park there.
If you follow car park signs from York Road in the direction of the
Thames, you will find the South Bank Centre's car parking, which is not
*totally* extortionately priced, and is only about three minutes walk
from the pub. However, those three minutes are through the Shell Centre,
and there may or may not be ramps as substitutes for the steps -- I
think there are, but could well be wrong. Alternatively, you can make it
a five minute walk and go round on the pavement instead.
--
Mike Scott
mi...@moose.demon.co.uk
http://www.moose.demon.co.uk
John Richards
Morgan Gallagher wrote:
>
> In article <876864...@ho-street.demon.co.uk>, Sandra Bond <Sandra@ho-
> street.demon.co.uk> writes
> >Yup, that sums it up pretty well (assuming you go by train: I go by car).
> >Except to say that I'd love to meet you if you do make it, oh hermit star
> >of rasff...
>
> Hmmm...wonder if that was for John or for me.
>
Has to be you dear heart Sandra has already met me.
Jo Walton
In article <ZF6yARAW...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>
Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk "Morgan Gallagher" writes:
> In article <876864...@ho-street.demon.co.uk>, Sandra Bond <Sandra@ho-
> street.demon.co.uk> writes
> >Yup, that sums it up pretty well (assuming you go by train: I go by car).
> >Except to say that I'd love to meet you if you do make it, oh hermit star
> >of rasff...
>
> Hmmm...wonder if that was for John or for me.
>
> It's all Jo Walton's fault anyway.
>
> ;-)
Yup, I want to go to London for the evening and I have to go to all the
trouble of kidnapping whole hordes of fans and reorganising everyone's
entire week.
It's actually all Patrick's fault, if you want to be recursive.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blue Jo Web Page - Blood of Kings Poetry, Reviews, Interstichia
20 poems by me, 11 poems by Graydon, Momentum Guidelines,
storytelling card games... all at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Morgan Gallagher
In article <344478...@panorama.panorama.com>, John Richards
<jo...@panorama.panorama.com> writes
>Morgan Gallagher wrote:
>>
>> In article <876864...@ho-street.demon.co.uk>, Sandra Bond <Sandra@ho-
>> street.demon.co.uk> writes
>> >Yup, that sums it up pretty well (assuming you go by train: I go by car).
>> >Except to say that I'd love to meet you if you do make it, oh hermit star
>> >of rasff...
>>
>> Hmmm...wonder if that was for John or for me.
>>
>
>
Most people have met me too! they're just confused by My New
Personality (tm).
That, and avoiding me like the plaugue!
Must get that 666 tatoo burnt off my hairline, it's a give away every
time!
Morgan Gallagher
In article <346a577f....@news.demon.co.uk>, Mike Scott
<mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:44:01 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>We once turned up at a pub we'd been assured had 'flat' access, to find
>>five steps. With everybody standing around looking at them as if they'd
>>mushroomed in the night. They'd never noticed them before!
>>
>>Now I just need to know about parking....
>
>If you turn up sufficiently late (after 7pm, I *think*), it's legal to
>park on the single yellow lines immediately outside the pub. However,
>even after 7pm, it looks like a damned stupid place to park to me, and
>*I* wouldn't park there.
>
Don't need to wait till 7. Have the super dooper Orange thing. Unless,
of course, this street is in Westminster? Bet I'm the first person to
need to know what borough the Jubilee is in?
>If you follow car park signs from York Road in the direction of the
>Thames, you will find the South Bank Centre's car parking, which is not
>*totally* extortionately priced, and is only about three minutes walk
>from the pub. However, those three minutes are through the Shell Centre,
>and there may or may not be ramps as substitutes for the steps -- I
>think there are, but could well be wrong. Alternatively, you can make it
>a five minute walk and go round on the pavement instead.
>
I'll try all these. I can always drop David off and then park.
Sandra Bond
In article <346a577f....@news.demon.co.uk>
mi...@moose.demon.co.uk "Mike Scott" writes:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:44:01 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
> <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >We once turned up at a pub we'd been assured had 'flat' access, to find
> >five steps. With everybody standing around looking at them as if they'd
> >mushroomed in the night. They'd never noticed them before!
> >
> >Now I just need to know about parking....
>
> If you turn up sufficiently late (after 7pm, I *think*), it's legal to
> park on the single yellow lines immediately outside the pub. However,
> even after 7pm, it looks like a damned stupid place to park to me, and
> *I* wouldn't park there.
Last time I parked just round the corner outside what used to be County
Hall and is now luxury apartments. I agree about not parking on the road;
if you don't get hit by speeding traffic you probably will be by drunken
fans lurching off the pavement.
Alison Scott
Morgan Gallagher <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Mike wrote:
>>If you turn up sufficiently late (after 7pm, I *think*), it's legal to
>>park on the single yellow lines immediately outside the pub. However,
>>even after 7pm, it looks like a damned stupid place to park to me, and
>>*I* wouldn't park there.
Rafe parks there every month without incident. Yellow lines in London
are usually 6:30 rather than 7, but I certainly wouldn't like to count
on it.
>Don't need to wait till 7. Have the super dooper Orange thing. Unless,
>of course, this street is in Westminster? Bet I'm the first person to
>need to know what borough the Jubilee is in?
It's sarf of the river, so I would assume it's Lambeth. But as usual,
Your Map May Vary. Aren't there orange badges in Westminster?
Sandra Bond
In article <4rrabZAQ...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>
Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk "Morgan Gallagher" writes:
> In article <346a577f....@news.demon.co.uk>, Mike Scott
> <mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> writes
> >On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:44:01 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
> ><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>We once turned up at a pub we'd been assured had 'flat' access, to find
> >>five steps. With everybody standing around looking at them as if they'd
> >>mushroomed in the night. They'd never noticed them before!
> >>
> >>Now I just need to know about parking....
> >
> >If you turn up sufficiently late (after 7pm, I *think*), it's legal to
> >park on the single yellow lines immediately outside the pub. However,
> >even after 7pm, it looks like a damned stupid place to park to me, and
> >*I* wouldn't park there.
> >
>
> Don't need to wait till 7. Have the super dooper Orange thing. Unless,
> of course, this street is in Westminster? Bet I'm the first person to
> need to know what borough the Jubilee is in?
I suspect Southwark.
Morgan Gallagher
In article <876905...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, Jo Walton
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <ZF6yARAW...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>
> Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk "Morgan Gallagher" writes:
>
>> In article <876864...@ho-street.demon.co.uk>, Sandra Bond <Sandra@ho-
>> street.demon.co.uk> writes
>> >Yup, that sums it up pretty well (assuming you go by train: I go by car).
>> >Except to say that I'd love to meet you if you do make it, oh hermit star
>> >of rasff...
>>
>> Hmmm...wonder if that was for John or for me.
>>
>>
>> ;-)
>
>Yup, I want to go to London for the evening and I have to go to all the
>trouble of kidnapping whole hordes of fans and reorganising everyone's
>entire week.
>
>It's actually all Patrick's fault, if you want to be recursive.
>
I was waiting till we got there to spring that on him. Now you've
spoiled the a/t/t/a/c/k suprize.
For those who are terminally confused - get help. For those who want to
know what Jo and I are whittling on about... she managed to persuade me
that I really did want to drive from Dublin to London, in order to take
her to meet Patrick at the Jubilee.
So, of course, I am doing exactly this. Although, thankfully, Irish
Ferries are doing the Wet Bits for us.
But *she's* paying for lunch at Avebury on the way!
Morgan Gallagher
In article <34473759....@news.demon.co.uk>, Alison Scott
<ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk> writes
>It's sarf of the river, so I would assume it's Lambeth. But as usual,
>Your Map May Vary. Aren't there orange badges in Westminster?
No. It's one of them 'Incensed of Turnbridge Wells' things. A
c/r/i/p/p/l/e Person with Disabilities cannot turn up and park at the
House of Commons and meet their MP, as Westminster (and I think
Kkensignton and Chelsea) do not recognise Orange Badges. They have
White Badges, and you only get one if you are resident in the borough.
Been a bit of a 'thing' that has, for quite some while. Also, London is
one of the few places where parking in borough car parks isn't free for
Orange Badges either.
I'll have to check on Lambeth. I'm sure there are three boroughs where
there are no Orange Badges, and lambeth rings a bell. David will know.
But dare I set the blood presure off by asking...?
--
Morgan
"Nunc demum intellego," dixit Winnie ille Pu. "Stultus et
delusus fui," dixit "et ursus sine ullo cerebro sum."
Jo Walton
In article <xb1Y3iAr...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>
Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk "Morgan Gallagher" writes:
> For those who are terminally confused - get help. For those who want to
> know what Jo and I are whittling on about... she managed to persuade me
> that I really did want to drive from Dublin to London, in order to take
> her to meet Patrick at the Jubilee.
>
> So, of course, I am doing exactly this. Although, thankfully, Irish
> Ferries are doing the Wet Bits for us.
She volunteered. I just said I wanted to be back in time to get to
London Wednesday evening.
For some reason this reminds me of the time I got accused of kidnapping
Andrew Morris from Follycon. Just giving him a lift home, the long way.
I'll never forget his plaintive voice in the back of the van saying
"Where _is_ Lancaster, anyway?" He rang his mum, explaining he was
doing this. Best line was "No, I don't know any of these people's
surnames..."
> But *she's* paying for lunch at Avebury on the way!
Fond of marmite, are you Morgan? :]
Morgan Gallagher
In article <877015...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, Jo Walton
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <xb1Y3iAr...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>
> Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk "Morgan Gallagher" writes:
>
>> But *she's* paying for lunch at Avebury on the way!
>
>Fond of marmite, are you Morgan? :]
>
Well, as I've now got the image of us driving helter skelter up the M4,
approaching London under deadline, with the immortal words "No, no,
don't worry, I'm sure we'll find a ripe banana *somewhere*." in my head,
I think I'll quit whilst I'm losing. ;-)
Avebury does have the best veggie resteraunt in Britain. You can't do
Avebury, and not do a Stones lunch. I'm still reeling in shock from
discovering you haven't been there.
Prerequisite of being a fan, that is, an Avebury lunch. Leastways where
I come from!
Sandra Bond
In article <877015...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
>
> For some reason this reminds me of the time I got accused of kidnapping
> Andrew Morris from Follycon. Just giving him a lift home, the long way.
> I'll never forget his plaintive voice in the back of the van saying
> "Where _is_ Lancaster, anyway?" He rang his mum, explaining he was
> doing this. Best line was "No, I don't know any of these people's
> surnames..."
>
LOL! As one who has known Andrew for over ten years (and am guilty for
his presence at Follycon and subsequent cons) this line is quintessential
Andrew. He has an amazing ability to look as though he's _just_ woken
up from a deep sleep at _any_ time of the day... nice to see him still
drifting round the edges of fandom...
Morgan Gallagher
In article <3447adba...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@clark.net> writes
>On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:36:26 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Well, as I've now got the image of us driving helter skelter up the M4,
>>approaching London under deadline, with the immortal words "No, no,
>>don't worry, I'm sure we'll find a ripe banana *somewhere*." in my head,
>>I think I'll quit whilst I'm losing. ;-)
>
>bananas. They aren't quite the same as we get here. This is because
>British bananas come from Africa -- or somewhere in the Old World,
>anyway -- while ours come from Central America.
>
>Anyway, we found a fruit stand right at Westminster Bridge (north end)
>that sold delightful bananas.
Ah.. but what borough would that be? ;-)
I'm sure there will be plenty of bananas in attendence.
Which reminds me about the Babblings, the melon, the curly wurley and
the cucumber. Did I ever tell you lot about that?
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>In article <3447adba...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@clark.net> writes
>>
>>When we were in England in '94, my kids fell in love with English
>>bananas. They aren't quite the same as we get here. This is because
>>British bananas come from Africa -- or somewhere in the Old World,
>>anyway -- while ours come from Central America.
>>
>>Anyway, we found a fruit stand right at Westminster Bridge (north end)
>>that sold delightful bananas.
>
>Ah.. but what borough would that be? ;-)
Westminster. W1.
>Which reminds me about the Babblings, the melon, the curly wurley and
>the cucumber. Did I ever tell you lot about that?
Nope. Do.
--
TOUCHED BY THE GODS: Hardcover, Tor Books, November 1997, $24.95
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Updated 8/5/97
Ulrika
In article <34473759....@news.demon.co.uk>,
ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk (Alison Scott) writes:
>Rafe parks there every month without incident.
Yes, but given all the talk of UK spelling/pronounciation
lately, I must know: does he pronounce his name "Ralf"?
Ulrika O'Brien, Philosopher Without Portfolio
***ulr...@aol.com***
Mike Scott
>When we were in England in '94, my kids fell in love with English
>bananas. They aren't quite the same as we get here. This is because
>British bananas come from Africa -- or somewhere in the Old World,
>anyway -- while ours come from Central America.
No they don't, they come from former (and current) British and French
colonies in the West Indies. Except that the WTO has just declared the
current arrangements illegal, and the EU may have to open up its markets
to cheaper bananas from Central America, which are already available in
Germany, which has no former colonies to support and likes its cheap
bananas.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:03:05 GMT, mi...@moose.demon.co.uk (Mike Scott)
wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:15:56 GMT, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
>Watt-Evans) wrote:
>
>>When we were in England in '94, my kids fell in love with English
>>bananas. They aren't quite the same as we get here. This is because
>>British bananas come from Africa -- or somewhere in the Old World,
>>anyway -- while ours come from Central America.
>
>No they don't, they come from former (and current) British and French
>colonies in the West Indies.
Oops. Okay. I knew they came from former British colonies. They
still taste different from the ones we get from Panama and Nicaragua.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Fri, 17 Oct 97 09:08:02 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
wrote:
> He hasn't missed at Eastercon for years, unless it
>was in !^%%#$* Jersey.
Hey! What's wrong with Jersey? I _like_ Jersey. (Only Eastercon
I've ever been to, actually.)
Gary Farber
In <3448961c...@news.clark.net> Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
: On Fri, 17 Oct 97 09:08:02 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
: wrote:
: > He hasn't missed at Eastercon for years, unless it
: >was in !^%%#$* Jersey.
: Hey! What's wrong with Jersey? I _like_ Jersey. (Only Eastercon
: I've ever been to, actually.)
Not relevant to most norteamericanos is that it's an extraordinarily
expensive site for an Eastercon for a Brit, Lawrence, since there are
added costs to driving to it. A number of British fans and pros deeply
resent Jersey cons as economically elitist.
--
--
Copyright 1997 by Gary Farber; Experienced Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On 17 Oct 1997 15:24:36 -0400, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>In <3448961c...@news.clark.net> Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>: On Fri, 17 Oct 97 09:08:02 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
>: wrote:
>
>: > He hasn't missed at Eastercon for years, unless it
>: >was in !^%%#$* Jersey.
>
>: Hey! What's wrong with Jersey? I _like_ Jersey. (Only Eastercon
>: I've ever been to, actually.)
>
>Not relevant to most norteamericanos is that it's an extraordinarily
>expensive site for an Eastercon for a Brit, Lawrence, since there are
>added costs to driving to it. A number of British fans and pros deeply
>resent Jersey cons as economically elitist.
Oh, yeah, well, there is that.
It's true you can't just drive there.
So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
just Jersey? Okay.
Alison Scott
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>Have either of you been to the Rowan Tree in Grasmere?
>
>That's the only vegetarian restaurant where I didn't actually _notice_
>it was vegetarian, because there were so many things I wanted anyway.
Well, I'm an omnivore, but there are lots like that in London.
However, we will be in the Lake District in a couple of weeks' time,
and will definitely try the Rowan Tree.
Cheers
Alison
--
Alison Scott ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk
Rather typical homepage: www.fuggles.demon.co.uk
Cutting-edge fanzine: www.moose.demon.co.uk/plokta
Robert Sneddon
In article <34521714....@news.demon.co.uk>
ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk "Alison Scott" writes:
> Stones is only my second favourite vegetarian restaurant. My favourite
> is Rasa in Stoke Newington. But Stones is probably the best in terms
> of cooking yer basic British vegetables.
YM "for yer". HTH.
--
To reply via email, remove the string "_nospam_" from my address.
Robert (nojay) Sneddon
Marcus L. Rowland
In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@clark.net> writes
>So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
>just Jersey? Okay.
>
Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
Northern Ireland bid.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Gary Farber
In <344a8f13...@news.demon.co.uk> Rob Hansen
<r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[. . .]
: This is also likely to ruin the economies of several islands in the
: West Indies as they can't possibly compete with the South/Central
: American bananas on price. Given the social impact, you'd have though
: the WTO might have made an exception in the case of islands whose main
: source of income this trade is, but no. Capitalism Uber Alles.
I don't entirely disagree, but I do note that this would, more or less,
entirely defeat the point of the WTO: almost all tariffs have "social
impact," and can be defended as such. If tariffs are to be kept to defend
obsolete industries, you might as well get rid of the WTO, or at least
change it into an entirely different organization, which would be
something more like a socialistic trade-ruling IMF, judging social goals
in each country, and either how to preserve industries in vitro, or
perhaps to slowly wean countries from obsolete industries while retraining
workers and the society to new, profitable, industries while minimizing
the social impact.
In theory I might not oppose this, but in practice, I'd be pretty dubious
about how effectively this could be done on a world scale at present: it
sounds far more likely to destroy economies through misjudgment and
corruption, I'm afraid. Me, I wish I had nice easy solutions. :-(
Morgan Gallagher
In article <3447d20...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@clark.net> writes
>>Which reminds me about the Babblings, the melon, the curly wurley and
>>the cucumber. Did I ever tell you lot about that?
>
>Nope. Do.
Since you ask...
On umtsB5, somehow, don't ask me how, we'd gotton on to the arabic
saying
A woman for duty
A boy for pleasure
And a melon for ecstasy.
This thread also managed to cover the well worn ground of "Good
chocolate is better than bad sex" and from whence to the classic "I've
never seen a man measure up to a Curly Wurly". (From Naked Video, if I
recall correctly.)
I cannot for the life of me remember how we then got to cucumbers, but
we did, and the usual splattering of cucumber jokes - how they keep hard
for three weeks, don't leave damp spots on the sheets etc etc etc.
So, background established, cut to a mega Babblings I'd asked to
supliment the taking of innocent American Guests To Our Shores for the
traditional Avebury picnic. (Just how many times can I get Avebury into
conversations this week? All coinicidence I assure you.) So we dived
out to Avbury en masse one hot Sunday for a troll around the stones, and
dived back to London for a night at the pub.
On rolling up to the pub, I found I'd been set up by one Paul Harper
(who really should have known better) and who had attended with a box of
goodies for me to 'demonstrate' with. A Curly Wurly. A cucumber. A
melon.
Unfortuantely for him, and ever so fortunatley for me, Paul had only
been able to get hold of a small green Galia melon. Unbeknowst to him,
and by complete coincidence, I had packed two huge yellow Honeydew
melons into the car before heading of to Avebury, in case we all got too
hot and sticky and needed some refreshment. They had lain forgotton in
the car. With the long sharp Kitchen Devil one needs to slice open a
huge melon.
So, on revealing the tiny Galia melon on stage witht he microphone and
spotlight, and calling me over to demonstrate 'a melon for ecstacy' I
shot out the door, and returned with " the real melons". uproar. ;-)
Second mistake was made at this point, whne I was called over tot he
spotlight and microphone to show off the melons. Paul tried to stammer
his way out of the problem by talking about melons. I was left with the
long knife and the cucumber. Bored.
So I circumsised it.
Just for effect, you understand.
;-)
And what an effect.
Still, it t'was fun, and no one has ever tried to 'suprise' me since!
"Yes, we have nooooo bananas... we have nooooo bananas today...." ;-)
Jo Walton
In article <877041...@ho-stree.demon.co.uk>
San...@ho-street.demon.co.uk "Sandra Bond" writes:
> In article <877015...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
>
> > For some reason this reminds me of the time I got accused of kidnapping
> > Andrew Morris from Follycon. Just giving him a lift home, the long way.
> > I'll never forget his plaintive voice in the back of the van saying
> > "Where _is_ Lancaster, anyway?" He rang his mum, explaining he was
> > doing this. Best line was "No, I don't know any of these people's
> > surnames..."
> >
> LOL! As one who has known Andrew for over ten years (and am guilty for
> his presence at Follycon and subsequent cons) this line is quintessential
> Andrew. He has an amazing ability to look as though he's _just_ woken
> up from a deep sleep at _any_ time of the day... nice to see him still
> drifting round the edges of fandom...
Drifting is _definitely_ the word.
The standard character description in some roleplaying systems includes
a characteristic quote for the person. Andrew's would be "I'm sorry,
could you say that again, I faded out for a moment."
Andrew's a sweetie. (If you know Andrew, how come you don't know me?)
I've known Andrew since Follycon and he's currently sharing a house
with my ex-husband. He hasn't missed at Eastercon for years, unless it
was in !^%%#$* Jersey. He can generally be found in the games room though.
He almost missed Intersection because he thought it was the weekend
after... I was ringing him in London saying "What are you doing there,
you're supposed to be here! Go straight to Euston!"
And Roz Kaveney described him as a one-man morality play. At, um,
not Confabulation, the one in the Escher Hotel.
But he's getting more organised. He organised a going away party for me
when I left Lancaster. This is the first thing he ever organised in his
life. I really appreciated that.
Robert Sneddon
In article <hUWpYIAY...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>
mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk "Marcus L. Rowland" writes:
> In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> <lawr...@clark.net> writes
> >So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
> >just Jersey? Okay.
> >
>
> Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
> who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
> Northern Ireland bid.
Anybody who tried could probably get a chunk of Local Gummint sponsorship
money to bankroll the con (or at least backstop the possibility of
making a loss[1]). The bad press NI gets because of the Troubles is
something that leads to the expenditure of tax money on Kulchur and the
Arts to try to counteract the doom-n-gloom atmosphere. Besides, it'd be
safer than Liverpool.
[1] The Cymrucons got a grant from the Welsh Arts Council of UKP 500
as a financial cushion - they would only receive the money if they
went into the red. They never needed it, AFAIK, but it must have been
comforting to the committees to have it in their back pocket, so to speak.
Morgan Gallagher
In article <hUWpYIAY...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland"
<mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@clark.net> writes
>>So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
>>just Jersey? Okay.
>>
>
>Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
>who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
>Northern Ireland bid.
Northern Ireland is a damn sight closer than Jersey for a hell of a lot
of people.
I *hate* Jersey. It gives me a headache.
Morgan Gallagher
In article <877118...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, Jo Walton
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>> >Avebury does have the best veggie resteraunt in Britain. You can't do
>> >Avebury, and not do a Stones lunch. I'm still reeling in shock from
>> >discovering you haven't been there.
>>
>> is Rasa in Stoke Newington. But Stones is probably the best in terms
>> of cooking yer basic British vegetables.
>
Nope, nor have I been to Stoke Newington. Nice to know there are
experiences out there awaiting me.
Not having supped in either or them, I can't comment on where Stones is
on the scale, but I'd agree with Alison - Stones is rather fab at 'yer
basic British vegetables'.
I suspect this is because Stones has its own organic garden/couple of
fields, and grows its own.
To bring this close to another thread, what Stones can do to carrots is
quite, quite enthralling.
And if you phone ahead to make sure you arrive as the new potato crop is
being harvested... yum yum yum!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@clark.net> writes
>>So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
>>just Jersey? Okay.
>>
>
>Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
>who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
>Northern Ireland bid.
Has there ever been a Manx bid? (I have relatives in Douglas. An
Eastercon would make a trip to visit them tax-deductible as a business
expense.)
Morgan Gallagher
In article <344cb000...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@clark.net> writes
>On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 04:42:46 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I *hate* Jersey. It gives me a headache.
>
>
I have no idea why, it just does. Within about three to four hours, I
get a headache. Stays there in varying degrees until I leave.
In fact, the only place I didn't have a low grade headache, was the
Gerald Durrel zoo on that infamous 'let's all decamp with our cheap
tickets to the zoo on the Wednesday after the con (First jersey con) and
entertain the Gorillas with our combined antics on the climbing frame'
fan programme item.
Apart from that, I had a headache the whole time. And no, it wasn't all
that disinfectant the Ops crew had poured into the bowl of custard for
the safe sex workshop. I had it long before the custard arrived.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:16:06 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
<Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <344cb000...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@clark.net> writes
>>On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 04:42:46 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
>><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>I *hate* Jersey. It gives me a headache.
>>
>>Why? he wailed in incomprehension.
>
>I have no idea why, it just does. Within about three to four hours, I
>get a headache. Stays there in varying degrees until I leave.
That's totally unfair. The universe is clearly being nasty.
I like Jersey quite a bit. They seem to have gotten a good mix of
French and English characteristics, especially in the food.
Steve Brewster
>
Organization: School of Maths, Bristol University
Reply-To: Steve.B...@Bristol.ac.uk
Distribution:
Lines: 30
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) wrote:
: On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:34:16 +0100, "Marcus L. Rowland"
: <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
: >In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
: ><lawr...@clark.net> writes
: >>So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
: >>just Jersey? Okay.
: >>
: >
: >Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
: >who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
: >Northern Ireland bid.
:
: Has there ever been a Manx bid? (I have relatives in Douglas. An
: Eastercon would make a trip to visit them tax-deductible as a business
: expense.)
:
There was an Isle of Man bid (called 'Contact') for the 1994 Eastercon.
It eventually collapsed. There was a bit of a fuss at the time over
this bid - homosexuality was, at the time, still punishable by life
imprisonment in the Isle of Man. Cue old jokes about 'Entering
Douglas.' (I'm pretty sure the law has changed now - the UK government
leaned on the Isle of Man government quite heavily a couple of years
ago about this.)
--
The same arts that did gain / A power, must it maintain.
http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~masjb
Jo Walton
In article <hUWpYIAY...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>
mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk "Marcus L. Rowland" writes:
> In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> <lawr...@clark.net> writes
> >So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
> >just Jersey? Okay.
Yeah. I expect it's a lovely place. Never been there. Highly unlikely
ever to.
> Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
> who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
> Northern Ireland bid.
I can get to Ireland for fifty pounds. Jersey? It is cheaper to fly
to New York for the weekend from the North of England.
Even if I could afford it the people I share a room with couldn't,
mostly, which would mean I couldn't. There are a lot of fans in
Britain who just aren't very well off.
Marilee J. Layman
In <877118...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo
Walton) wrote:
>That's the only vegetarian restaurant where I didn't actually _notice_
>it was vegetarian, because there were so many things I wanted anyway.
This reminds me about the time I was consulting in Milwaukee for Armco
Insurance Group (I see them advertising as AIG these days). I had a
big contract there and got a short-term apartment because it was
cheaper for them (and more comfortable for me) than staying in a hotel
and I just kept clothes there and flew home with hand-luggage for
weekends. I used to have lunch at a little vegetarian coffee shop
around the corner from the AIG building and when I mentioned it once
to my contact at AIG, he was obviously startled. I'm not a
vegetarian, but they had good food and a lot of the restaurants around
the building (as well as the cafeteria in the building) had really
heavy food. He reminded me that I had an unlimited expense account
and I told him I didn't eat there because it was cheap, I ate there
because I liked the food. When he found out I was staying in the
apartment instead of a hotel, and that I cooked dinner for myself most
nights, and that I walked the mile back and forth (except in really
bad weather) instead of getting a cab or hiring a car, he clearly
pegged me as some sort of weirdo. A really effective consultant, but
a weirdo.
This was where I first had German food and although I liked it, I
didn't want it everyday. I remember looking at the cafeteria menu one
day and seeing "Brat on a Bun" and wondering if it was a joke. I'd
never had bratwurst before, nor most other German sausages, and the
cafeteria featured some kind of sausage every day. They also served
beer at the morning breaks and lunch, which surprised me.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
RELM Mu...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
**New** Web site: http://home.virtual-pc.com/outland/owc/index.html
AOL keyword: FR > Science Fiction > The Other*Worlds*Cafe (listbox)
Robert Sneddon
In article <emDD1EAY...@intersec.demon.co.uk>
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk "Bernard Peek" writes:
> A con in Jersey raises the minimum cost of the convention, because it's
> easier to get to. For quite a few people it reduces the *average* cost,
> because meals, drinks and accomodation there are cheaper than the
> mainland. For the lone Jersey fan of course cons everywhere else are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> more expensive.
Do you mean Tobes, the Original Party Animal? I always figured there
had to be at least six of him, clones perhaps...
Sandra Bond
> In <3448961c...@news.clark.net> Lawrence Watt-Evans
> <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
> : On Fri, 17 Oct 97 09:08:02 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
> : wrote:
>
> : > He hasn't missed at Eastercon for years, unless it
> : >was in !^%%#$* Jersey.
>
> : Hey! What's wrong with Jersey? I _like_ Jersey. (Only Eastercon
> : I've ever been to, actually.)
>
> Not relevant to most norteamericanos is that it's an extraordinarily
> expensive site for an Eastercon for a Brit, Lawrence, since there are
> added costs to driving to it. A number of British fans and pros deeply
> resent Jersey cons as economically elitist.
>
<nostalgic sigh> I remember the cover I stuck on my crudzine at the time
of the first Jersey Eastercon... two top-hatted and tiara'd toffs saying
"Hurrah! what fun at Jersey in '89".
Nobody seemed to take any notice. But then, it _was_ a very _cruddy_ crudzine.
Gary Farber
In <R0wgsLAz...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> Morgan Gallagher
<Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: In article <EI9nK...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, John Dallman
: <j...@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes
: >Yes, but it didn't get anywhere. There were several reasons for this: the
: >committee lacked credibility to start with, and made it worse by proposing
: >an, uh, innovative method of charging people for attending: charging money
: >on the door for individual programme items, rather than an all-in
: >membership fee.
: Eek! Tea through my nose! Yuck!
It certainly would be innovative for a standard sf con, you have to grant.
And it would require either a damn good program, or create a very empty
one, fer sure. Enforces a certain discipline on all concerned, you might
say. Next step: the programming committee and panelists get a percentage
of the take for their panels. . . .
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <344a0b1c....@news.pipeline.com>,
Dave Locke <dave...@bigfoot.com> writes
>Incredibobble. That's the worst serious bid I ever heard of. I can't
>imagine a worse one (I'd make a lousy skiffy author...).
>
>The bid I most fondly remember is the one made by San Diego for the
>'72 Westercon. They had absolutely nothing ready except a GoH. David
>Hulan won our (at that time just Ed Cox, Tina Hensel, David, and me)
>Long Beach bid in a landslide with his first four words: "We *have* a
>hotel."
There have been occasions when almost anyone could have won an Eastercon
bid without even a GoH, simply by announcing that there was an
alternative. Hell, I recall a bidding session where there was a three-
way tie between the one valid bid, the spoof and defer the decision. I
*still* think that deferring the vote to the next year was the best
option.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
David G. Bell
In article <9K9LeLAg...@intersec.demon.co.uk>
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk "Bernard Peek" writes:
The only reason I voted for the first Jersey Eastercon bid was that I
felt it was important to establish 2-year bidding.
On a couple of other occasions I have pre-supported bids which collapsed
before the voting stage.
I've heard claims, which seem plausible to me, that British fandom has
less capacity to organise and run conventions than it did a decade ago.
I do wonder if we have to choose between bidding for Worldcons, and
having a genuine choice of Eastercon bids.
Since I am usually very busy with the farming over the Worldcon season,
I am biased in this matter, but my limited Worldcon experience (it was
an early harvest in 1990) suggests that it is much easier to find
friends, and eminent American fans of one sort and another, at a good
Eastercon.
[Waves to Ben Yalow]
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <877289...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
"David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>I've heard claims, which seem plausible to me, that British fandom has
>less capacity to organise and run conventions than it did a decade ago.
>I do wonder if we have to choose between bidding for Worldcons, and
>having a genuine choice of Eastercon bids.
I don't for a moment believe such a claim. There have been quite a
number of changes over the last ten years. One of them is that there are
now many more people with experience of running some part of a
convention, partly because there are now so many more conventions.
Eastercons have been over-managed for a while, by committees that
believed that they needed to oversee every last detail. Given the
increased complexity of current Eastercons that approach is guaranteed
to fail.
That should mean that Eastercon committees can now concentrate on the
job they should be doing, and not get sucked into micromanaging
everyone. This in turn means that the core committee can be smaller.
All of this has been learned by running Worldcons. Without the
experience gained from 1979, 87, 90 and 95 we would still be running
Eastercons the same way we did in the 70s. It would mean that the
Eastercons at 1000 attendees would be facing the same decisions that
Minicon now faces at 3500 attendees.
>
>Since I am usually very busy with the farming over the Worldcon season,
>I am biased in this matter, but my limited Worldcon experience (it was
>an early harvest in 1990) suggests that it is much easier to find
>friends, and eminent American fans of one sort and another, at a good
>Eastercon.
>
>[Waves to Ben Yalow]
>
I agree it's easier to find Ben Yalow at an Eastercon than at a
Worldcon. There are quite a few people that I find much easier to find
at a Worldcon, because they don't attend Eastercons.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
John Richards
> >In article <3447caa2...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> ><lawr...@clark.net> writes
> >>So it's ANY island other than Great Britain that'd be !^%%#$*, and not
> >>just Jersey? Okay.
> >>
> >
> >who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
> >Northern Ireland bid.
>
> of people.
>
And Jersey is a damn sight closer than Glasgow (or even Liverpool) for
others.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
John Richards
Morgan Gallagher wrote:
>
> In article <62dft2$l...@panix2.panix.com>, Gary Farber
> <gfa...@panix.com> writes
> >In <R0wgsLAz...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> Morgan Gallagher
> ><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >: In article <EI9nK...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, John Dallman
> >: <j...@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes
> >: >Yes, but it didn't get anywhere. There were several reasons for this: the
> >: >committee lacked credibility to start with, and made it worse by proposing
> >: >an, uh, innovative method of charging people for attending: charging money
> >: >on the door for individual programme items, rather than an all-in
> >: >membership fee.
> >
> >: Eek! Tea through my nose! Yuck!
> >
> >It certainly would be innovative for a standard sf con, you have to grant.
> >And it would require either a damn good program, or create a very empty
> >one, fer sure. Enforces a certain discipline on all concerned, you might
> >say. Next step: the programming committee and panelists get a percentage
> >of the take for their panels. . . .
> >--
>
> deducted...cross referenced of course, for labour costs.
>
> So, in order to make it work, we'd have to decide an hourly rate for
> conrunning...what would that be I wonder?
Just as an exercise we once tried costing a WINCON at the various
professional rates of our committee (the one's which our respective
employers get for our services not what we take home). I believe we gave
up when we hit UKL 100,000.
This of course covered the work required before the convention rather
than simply the concention itself. However a simply glance at the rates
the professional course organisers and, given the fact that conventions
do not run from 10:00 to 16:00 multiply by 2.
John Richards
Bernard Peek wrote:
>
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <877289...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
> "David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >
> >I've heard claims, which seem plausible to me, that British fandom has
> >less capacity to organise and run conventions than it did a decade ago.
> >I do wonder if we have to choose between bidding for Worldcons, and
> >having a genuine choice of Eastercon bids.
>
> I don't for a moment believe such a claim. There have been quite a
> number of changes over the last ten years. One of them is that there are
> now many more people with experience of running some part of a
> convention, partly because there are now so many more conventions.
>
> Eastercons have been over-managed for a while, by committees that
> believed that they needed to oversee every last detail. Given the
> increased complexity of current Eastercons that approach is guaranteed
> to fail.
>
> That should mean that Eastercon committees can now concentrate on the
> job they should be doing, and not get sucked into micromanaging
> everyone. This in turn means that the core committee can be smaller.
I'm afraid that I must take David's side on this matter. The only reason
that the Intervention bid went ahead was that other potential committees
were involved in Intersection (even our committee had people who were
involved at senior staff and board level).
There are indeed a number of experts in various areas who the sensible
committee wouldn't dream of micro-managing however this had lead to
friction between areas and the need for a great amount of diplomacy and
mediation between these areas.
I used more project management skills in putting on the Eastercon than I
have ever done in my professional life. (I design project management
tools for, amongst others, the Hong Kong government.)
Alison Scott
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>I've heard claims, which seem plausible to me, that British fandom has
>less capacity to organise and run conventions than it did a decade ago.
>I do wonder if we have to choose between bidding for Worldcons, and
>having a genuine choice of Eastercon bids.
Bernard has followed up to this, but just to emphasise that this is
utterly wrong. No question. There are dozens of conrunners in Britain
who, assuming a reasonably compatible group was chosen, could run an
Eastercon with one hand tied behind their backs. That was not so in
1987. Quite apart from anything else, everyone was shattered after
Conspiracy.
The reason we aren't seeing as many serious contested bids is that a
decade ago, there was considerable disagreement on what Eastercons
should be like, and people sufficiently bothered about this to want to
run the con their way. There is probably still the disagreement, but
it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that an Eastercon bidding
exclusivity won't win against serious opposition. So we're currently
in a sort of one-party consensus Eastercon system. If Eastercons
(which are pretty inclusive but don't have much to offer people who
want to see actors) start to grow substantially, I think you would
start to see seriously contested bids. But the Eastercon membership is
pretty stable at the moment.
What I'd like to see more of are focused small cons of the sort I like
to attend; and it's getting to the stage where running one sounds like
a nice idea. However, in the depths of the recession a number of small
cons folded or had to cut their cloth pretty trim, and we've not yet
recovered from that.
Zev Sero
On Sat, 18 Oct 97, nojay@ibfs._nospam_demon.co.uk (Robert Sneddon)
wrote:
>> Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
>> who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
>> Northern Ireland bid.
>
> Anybody who tried could probably get a chunk of Local Gummint sponsorship
>money to bankroll the con (or at least backstop the possibility of
>making a loss[1]). The bad press NI gets because of the Troubles is
>something that leads to the expenditure of tax money on Kulchur and the
>Arts to try to counteract the doom-n-gloom atmosphere.
Oh, so it would be sort of like the Zagreb bid.
--
Zev Sero It's a Jewish thing; if you have a
zs...@idt.net bit of time, I'll explain it to you.
Jo Walton
In article <344bb07f....@news.idt.net> zs...@idt.net "Zev Sero" writes:
> On Fri, 17 Oct 97, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>
> >And Roz Kaveney described him as a one-man morality play. At, um,
> >not Confabulation, the one in the Escher Hotel.
>
> Oh, I didn't realise that they were a chain. I thought there
> was just the Escher Memorial Hilton in Rye Town NY, where
> Lunacon is held, and I've heard there's one in Maryland
> or New Jersey or somewhere; Gary Ehrlich wrote a filk about
> them, and Hanna Shapero did a painting based on the song.
> Interesting to hear that they've expanded to the UK.
This one's at Heathrow. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find there's
a direct Escher-Einstein-Podinsky link to the ones in the US. Probably
that was the elevator that didn't work.
There were helpful signs put up by the concom so people could find
their way around. They said "You're in a maze of twisty passages,
all alike". Really.
It was cool.
There was a pool with a real ale bar. There was another bar. If you went
from the pool to the other bar you had to go up some steps, round
at least five ninety degree corners and down some steps. To get from
the bar back to the pool, you went through a restaurant, which didn't
exist when going in the other direction.
The room Ken and I ran our thingy in was down a narrow mirrored hallway.
I spent most of my time by the pool though, despite people threatening
to throw me in. I could always find the pool.
I prefer the Adelphi (Adelphi attenda est) but I did think that one
had a certain non-Euclidian something.
It certainly had a good con.
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <344B14...@panorama.panorama.com>,
John Richards <jo...@panorama.panorama.com> writes
>Just as an exercise we once tried costing a WINCON at the various
>professional rates of our committee (the one's which our respective
>employers get for our services not what we take home). I believe we gave
>up when we hit UKL 100,000.
My company is working on running a conference next year. It should have
about 250 attendees. It's budgeted to lose GBP 400,000. That's about
$600,000.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <62evqq$8...@panix2.panix.com>, Gary
Farber <gfa...@panix.com> writes
>In <dA8jMHAk...@intersec.demon.co.uk>
>Bernard Peek <b...@intersec.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: All of this has been learned by running Worldcons. Without the
>: experience gained from 1979, 87, 90 and 95 we would still be running
>: Eastercons the same way we did in the 70s. It would mean that the
>: Eastercons at 1000 attendees would be facing the same decisions that
>: Minicon now faces at 3500 attendees.
>
>(then) in 1975-6, it was hitting 1500-1600, and we didn't have significant
>problems running it The Same Old-Fashioned, We Have A Committee of A Dozen
>To Twenty People Way cons all used to be run; Suncon in 1977 was more or
>less run the same way, and it was only at about that level of 2000 people
>and Worldcon complexity that that method of organization started to
>frazzle out.
I'm not sure how things scale. I recall Ben Yalow writing that it wasn't
worth having two programme streams for a con of less than 500. I've seen
Eastercons with 800 attendees starting six items at the same time. It's
certainly possible to run a 1000 person convention with a committee of a
dozen, but not without a lot of help. Try running the same size
convention but without any of the people that normally operate at
"staff" level.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
Fiona Anderson
In article <344B17...@panorama.panorama.com>, John Richards
<jo...@panorama.panorama.com> writes
>I'm afraid that I must take David's side on this matter. The only reason
>that the Intervention bid went ahead was that other potential committees
>were involved in Intersection (even our committee had people who were
>involved at senior staff and board level).
Since I can't at this moment think of one person on your committee who
fits that description, perhaps you wouldn't mind refreshing my memory as
to who you're referring to here?
Thanks in advance.
--
Fiona Anderson
*WARNING* you have entered a Tact Free Zone
http://www.intersec.demon.co.uk/tactfree/
Steve Glover
In article <hUWpYIAY...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland"
<mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes
>Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
>who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
>Northern Ireland bid.
Fair enough. I'd go to a NI Eastercon like a shot. I don't know who'd
run one, though. Also, I don't think there's a problem with UK limited
companies having AGMs in NI.
Steve, who, on noticing the second sentence of the above para, nearly
rephrased it to say that a Belfast Eastercon could be real blast.
PS do any .ie readers know about hotel availability in Dublin in 2016?
--
Steve Glover
Morgan Gallagher
In article <memo.19971021...@bugshaw.compulink.co.uk>, Bridget
Hardcastle <sch...@bugshaw.cix.co.uk> writes
>Bug
>(wondering if it would be tasteless to add, "And of course we'll all be
>able to recognise you after the recent threads on bra size")
Not to mention arriving with Jo Walton and a banana.
And blond haired, bearded ex hippy in a black on black wheelchair.
Hm.... I can see the problem. Shall I wear a rose, or carry a copy of
the Daily Telegraph?
Steve Brewster
Steve Glover (st...@fell.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: Steve, who, on noticing the second sentence of the above para, nearly
: rephrased it to say that a Belfast Eastercon could be real blast.
:
: PS do any .ie readers know about hotel availability in Dublin in 2016?
: --
: Steve Glover
Cue wholly inappropriate suggestions for Easter Monday lunchtime
programming. (Classic Irish Fandom excuses: 'We went to the Post Office
to post our zines, but things got a bit out of hand').
Moscow in 2017?
--
The city streets are empty now / The lights don't shine no more.
Steve.B...@Bristol.ac.uk ***** http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~masjb
Avedon Carol
>In article <emDD1EAY...@intersec.demon.co.uk>
> b...@intersec.demon.co.uk "Bernard Peek" writes:
>
>> A con in Jersey raises the minimum cost of the convention, because it's
>> easier to get to. For quite a few people it reduces the *average* cost,
>> because meals, drinks and accomodation there are cheaper than the
>> mainland. For the lone Jersey fan of course cons everywhere else are
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> more expensive.
>
> Do you mean Tobes, the Original Party Animal? I always figured there
>had to be at least six of him, clones perhaps...
I actually met several Jersey fans at the Eastercon there. They'd
never been to one before because they couldn't afford it.
I also met some Scots fans who thought the whole argument was a joke,
since the Eastercons seldom come near enough to them for it to matter
anyway.
Avedon
ave...@cix.co.uk
Note: The reply field lies.
Avedon Carol
On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:10:01 -0500, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm)
wrote:
>In article <cPpTyFAW...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>, Morgan Gallagher
><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <344cb000...@news.clark.net>, Lawrence Watt-Evans
>> <lawr...@clark.net> writes
>> >On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 04:42:46 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
>> ><Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >>I *hate* Jersey. It gives me a headache.
>> >
>> >Why? he wailed in incomprehension.
>>
>> I have no idea why, it just does. Within about three to four hours, I
>> get a headache. Stays there in varying degrees until I leave.
>
>My brother was sick a lot and went to a variety of specialists, who didn't
>help much. My diagnosis: He was allergic to Big Cities. He moved to the
>Colorado Rockies and felt much better.
>
>He now lives back in Wash. DC and his health is waning.
Washington, DC is not a big city. It is a giant park with about
700,000 people living in it. I can breath there. But not in London.
>Theodore Sturgeon was right.
Christ, you just found out?
Morgan Gallagher
In article <877457...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, Jo Walton
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>Tell you what, wear something with a large lapel hole and put the
>banana in it?
>
I see. You feel my chest needs something like a banana on it to be
noticable?
David G. Bell
In article <BnfLZEAQ...@fell.demon.co.uk>
st...@fell.demon.co.uk "Steve Glover" writes:
> In article <hUWpYIAY...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland"
> <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >Which, as on several previous occasions, makes me wonder what the people
> >who raise this objection intend to do if there is ever a serious
> >Northern Ireland bid.
>
> Fair enough. I'd go to a NI Eastercon like a shot. I don't know who'd
> run one, though. Also, I don't think there's a problem with UK limited
> companies having AGMs in NI.
>
> Steve, who, on noticing the second sentence of the above para, nearly
> rephrased it to say that a Belfast Eastercon could be real blast.
>
> PS do any .ie readers know about hotel availability in Dublin in 2016?
Why 2016?
Apart from 1016 being the year that Knut the Great was proclaimed King
of England.
Elisabeth Carey
"David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<877457...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>...
Easter Monday, 1916. In Dublin. At the post office.
Quite a lively event, I've heard.
Lis Carey
Bridget Hardcastle
In article <877378...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo
Walton) wrote:
> This one's at Heathrow. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find there's
> a direct Escher-Einstein-Podinsky link to the ones in the US. Probably
> that was the elevator that didn't work.
>
> There were helpful signs put up by the concom so people could find
> their way around. They said "You're in a maze of twisty passages,
> all alike". Really.
Some of us went to have another look at it, potentially for an Eastercon
bid, and it's changed a lot! All the bits that were there are still
there, but they've added big chunks to it. The function area now has a
corridor that goes all the way round, instead of being a backbone with
cul-de-sacs coming off it, which makes it a lot easier to tell where you
are. There are still too many (or is it too few? I get confused) right
angle bends in the bedroom areas.
There's a big new room in the front, with huge windows all the way
round. We watched a big aeroplane take off, but couldn't hear it.
Pretty amazing.
Walking around, we were overcome by the potential of the site, new ideas
springing into our heads with every step. I hope we get to put some of
them into practice.
Bug
Robert Sneddon
In article <3452f132...@news.demon.co.uk>
ave...@thirdworld.uk "Avedon Carol" writes:
I wrote:
> > Do you mean Tobes, the Original Party Animal? I always figured there
> >had to be at least six of him, clones perhaps...
>
> I actually met several Jersey fans at the Eastercon there. They'd
> never been to one before because they couldn't afford it.
I've seen Tobes (don't know his real name - he's never sober enough or
tranquil enough to hold a conversation with) at a couple of mainland
cons, most recently Wombat. I have a piccy somewhere of him in a bath
at a room party. He is out of focus, but everything else in the pic
is pin-sharp.)
>
> I also met some Scots fans who thought the whole argument was a joke,
> since the Eastercons seldom come near enough to them for it to matter
> anyway.
The series of Glasgow Eastercons in the 80's were pretty close for
most Scots, and the Adelphi is only about 200 miles from Glasgow,
about the same distance for London fans. Manchester next year is
about 200 miles away as well. The '99 Eastercon is back in the Adelphi
and there is a bid being launched for the Central Hotel in Glasgow in
2000 (2Kon).
Maybe it's because I'm used to travelling long distances from the
wastelands of Scotland to civilisation and con hotels I find the
arguments about the expense of the Jersey cons a little risible.
BTW I've been to both the Jersey Eastercons - in fact I haven't
missed an Eastercon since '78.
Steve Glover
In article <M1k3BFAB...@intersec.demon.co.uk>, Fiona Anderson
<Fi...@intersec.demon.co.uk> writes
>The various write-ups of our Intersection experiences can be found at
>http://www.smof.com/afn and are collectively titled Another Fine Nessie,
>but most of them concentrate on what went right, rather than what
>didn't.
Of course. The last thing people connected with an area that went wrong
want to do is write about it -- especially when the ostensible reason
for writing it up is to encourage someone to do it again.
Steve
--
Steve Glover
Maureen Kincaid Speller
>In article <877457...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, Jo Walton
><J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Tell you what, wear something with a large lapel hole and put the
>>banana in it?
>>
>
>
>I see. You feel my chest needs something like a banana on it to be
>noticable?
Ha ... I shall be the one with a winged banana on my jacket, unless I
have a beard, in which case I shall be Paul with a winged banana on my
jacket.
Maureen (the tragedy of this is that they are not going to believe me;
nesxt Wednesday could be fun)
Maureen Kincaid Speller
m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk
Ulrika O'Brien for TAFF
Steve Glover
In article <EIEpo...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, Steve Brewster
<ma...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> writes
>: PS do any .ie readers know about hotel availability in Dublin in 2016?
>Cue wholly inappropriate suggestions for Easter Monday lunchtime
>programming. (Classic Irish Fandom excuses: 'We went to the Post Office
>to post our zines, but things got a bit out of hand').
>
>Moscow in 2017?
Yes... It's a pity this is easier with centenaries rather than
twentyfifth, fiftieth or sixtieth anniversaries, or the thread title
would be appropriate again. And now I can't think of any other obvious
city/year combinations, dammit.
Steve
--
Steve Glover
Vicki Rosenzweig
In article <EIEpo...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, Steve.B...@Bristol.ac.uk wrote:
>Steve Glover (st...@fell.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>:
>: Steve, who, on noticing the second sentence of the above para, nearly
>: rephrased it to say that a Belfast Eastercon could be real blast.
>: Steve Glover
>
>Cue wholly inappropriate suggestions for Easter Monday lunchtime
>programming. (Classic Irish Fandom excuses: 'We went to the Post Office
>to post our zines, but things got a bit out of hand').
>
>Moscow in 2017?
>
Vicki Rosenzweig
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
Typos are Coyote padding through the language, grinning.
--Susanna Sturgis
Maureen Kincaid Speller
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:59:57 +0100, Morgan Gallagher
<Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <345caa0e...@news.demon.co.uk>, Maureen Kincaid Speller
><m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Ha ... I shall be the one with a winged banana on my jacket, unless I
>>have a beard, in which case I shall be Paul with a winged banana on my
>>jacket.
>>
>>Maureen (the tragedy of this is that they are not going to believe me;
>>nesxt Wednesday could be fun)
>
>
>I beleive you. I refuse to beleive there are no banana brooches in
>fandom.
>
>However, who'd going to bring the banana in it's pyjamas?
Well not me, though I could borrow a vampire banana if that helps?
Maureen
Fiona Anderson
In article <mFMc0OAI...@fell.demon.co.uk>, Steve Glover
<st...@fell.demon.co.uk> writes
>Of course. The last thing people connected with an area that went wrong
>want to do is write about it -- especially when the ostensible reason
>for writing it up is to encourage someone to do it again.
Actually *that* was not the reason for doing the exercise. Rather the
idea was to show what was really involved in doing any area - since
running a Worldcon is very different to running an Eastercon, and since
there were no "how to" write-ups from Conspiracy, or ConFiction.
Of course, most people who wrote it also got the egoboo of saying "I did
this" and why not? All those people were vitally necessary to
Intersection's success, as well as all the other people who worked so
hard too to make it happen.
But as to people who've told me they're considering taking on a
worldcon, I've been pointing them at AFN, and it has had the opposite
effect to the one you assume - far from enthusing fans, on reading AFN
various people have expressed their horror when they found out what
actually was involved...and either been turned off the idea, or else
decided what they needed was to get more involved in behind-the-scenes
stuff in a smaller way first, to see how they feel about the actual
reality of conrunning, rather than how they feel about the idea of the
end product.
Steve Brewster
Steve Glover (st...@fell.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <EIEpo...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, Steve Brewster
: <ma...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> writes
:
:
: >programming. (Classic Irish Fandom excuses: 'We went to the Post Office
: >to post our zines, but things got a bit out of hand').
: >
: >Moscow in 2017?
: Yes... It's a pity this is easier with centenaries rather than
: twentyfifth, fiftieth or sixtieth anniversaries, or the thread title
: would be appropriate again. And now I can't think of any other obvious
: city/year combinations, dammit.
Of course, we're bound to be flummoxed by the problem that British
History contains only two Memorable Dates. 2016 is the 950th
anniversary of one of them; the 2000th anniversary of the other
was a few decades ago.
Steve 'are Eastercons a Good Thing?' B.
David G. Bell
In article <OGLmEHAV...@fell.demon.co.uk>
st...@fell.demon.co.uk "Steve Glover" writes:
> In article <877457...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, "David G. Bell"
> <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >> PS do any .ie readers know about hotel availability in Dublin in 2016?
>
> >Why 2016?
>
> >Apart from 1016 being the year that Knut the Great was proclaimed King
> >of England.
>
> Or the 1050th anniversary of Senlac? No, I was thinking more of the
> Easter Rising in 1916. Anyway, given the quality of his advisors, it's
> amazing that Cnut's name wasn't any scrambled any worse.
Steve, you have gotten one of the two memorable dates *WRONG*.
Anyway, I think he was just being nice to his predecessor's advisors.
If I'm remembering right, when Ethelred got fed up with being Unready,
Cnut was proclaimed King of England at Gainsborough, which is just down
the road from here.
Gainsborough is also where the Pilgrim Fathers started planning their
departure from England. Considering the route they took, and the way
they managed to survive their first winter, the Mayflower must have been
the 17th-Century equivalent of a B-Ark full of telephone sanitation
engineers.
David G. Bell
In article <IGon0LAZ...@fell.demon.co.uk>
st...@fell.demon.co.uk "Steve Glover" writes:
> In article <EIEpo...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, Steve Brewster
> <ma...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> writes
>
> >: PS do any .ie readers know about hotel availability in Dublin in 2016?
>
> >Cue wholly inappropriate suggestions for Easter Monday lunchtime
> >programming. (Classic Irish Fandom excuses: 'We went to the Post Office
> >to post our zines, but things got a bit out of hand').
> >
> >Moscow in 2017?
>
> Yes... It's a pity this is easier with centenaries rather than
> twentyfifth, fiftieth or sixtieth anniversaries, or the thread title
> would be appropriate again. And now I can't think of any other obvious
> city/year combinations, dammit.
La Belle Alliance in 2015.
We can probably fit in Prague, on the anniversary of the Defenestration,
but I don't recall the year.
The French Revolution is out--Paris would have to be something the
French would be too embarrassed to crow about. Agincourt in 2015? Or
maybe the Restoration of the Bourbons?
Keith Stokes
zs...@idt.net (Zev Sero) wrote:
>>And Roz Kaveney described him as a one-man morality play. At, um,
>>not Confabulation, the one in the Escher Hotel.
>Oh, I didn't realise that they were a chain. I thought there
>was just the Escher Memorial Hilton in Rye Town NY, where
>Lunacon is held, and I've heard there's one in Maryland
Archon used to be held at the Henry the 8th in St. Louis.
You could circle the hotel, go up a flight of steps and be on a lower
floor than when you started.
Keith
Charlie the Dog's Home Page:
http://home.unicom.net/~sfreader/charlie.htm
Morgan Gallagher
In article <34502432...@news.demon.co.uk>, Maureen Kincaid Speller
<m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk> writes
>Well not me, though I could borrow a vampire banana if that helps?
I know this is going to be a very stupid thing to do - but tell me, what
does a vampire banana feed on? Pureed banana from other banana's necks?
David E Romm
> On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:10:01 -0500, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm)
> wrote:
> >My brother was sick a lot and went to a variety of specialists, who didn't
> >help much. My diagnosis: He was allergic to Big Cities. He moved to the
> >Colorado Rockies and felt much better.
> >
> >He now lives back in Wash. DC and his health is waning.
>
> Washington, DC is not a big city. It is a giant park with about
> 700,000 people living in it. I can breath there. But not in London.
It's better than some, true (and certainly better than NYC, the other
place he lived in that period), but it's still big, dirty and noisy.
But then again, I'm from Mpls, a giant park with about 350,000 people
living in it...
> >Theodore Sturgeon was right.
>
> Christ, you just found out?
Heavens, no. Continuity, Avedon, not discovery. I invoked Sturgeon to my
brother to help convince him to flee cities. Sturgeon deserves to be
mentioned more in rasf.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
"Hi. I'm required by law to tell you that I'm Kato Kaelin."
-- Kato Kaelin, Mad TV 10/21/95
Maureen Kincaid Speller
>In article <34502432...@news.demon.co.uk>, Maureen Kincaid Speller
><m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Well not me, though I could borrow a vampire banana if that helps?
>
>
>I know this is going to be a very stupid thing to do - but tell me, what
>does a vampire banana feed on? Pureed banana from other banana's necks?
Probably ... hence the amazing number of discarded empty banana skins
Steve Brewster
I forgot to mention that some engineering company has proposed a 56-mile
railway tunnel from Wales (Holyhead) to Dublin. Weighs in at a cool
14 billion quid. It's unlikely that it'll get built by 2016, I think
(or, indeed, ever).
--
http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~masjb "Surrounded and confounded by statistic facts"
Steve Glover
In article <877550...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, "David G. Bell"
<db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>Steve, you have gotten one of the two memorable dates *WRONG*.
<blush red=deep>Bugger! You're right -- 1066 + 1050 <> 2016</blush>
>Gainsborough is also where the Pilgrim Fathers started planning their
>departure from England. Considering the route they took, and the way
>they managed to survive their first winter, the Mayflower must have been
>the 17th-Century equivalent of a B-Ark full of telephone sanitation
>engineers.
Ooh... isn't this a tad early?
Steve, who's just realised his copy of 1984 And All That (with the
picture of Saar Nicholas II being assassinated in the Urinals) has gone
walkies
--
Steve Glover
Steve Glover
In article <62m08b$vo_...@port.net.interport.net>, Vicki Rosenzweig
<v...@interport.net> writes
>Granted, it's your history, not mine, but I thought the second memorable
>date was when William the Conquerer was proclaimed King of England,
>and had nothing in particular to do with Cnut.
It's my fault -- I meant the 950th anniversary of Senlac (aka Hastings),
when HG got it in the eye from WtB
Steve
--
Steve Glover
Jim Trash
In article <877471978snz@ibfs._nospam_demon.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
> I've seen Tobes (don't know his real name - he's never sober enough or
>tranquil enough to hold a conversation with)
I too have met him in this state.
I was amazed to be at a room party at Eastercon where the room resident
left and went home before the end of the party.
We carried on talking and grunting at each other and Tobes was
staggering out of the hotel on his way back to jolly Jersey with a bag,
much internal liquid and a few fuzzy memories.
Meanwhile Barry Traish and Simo were trying to convince some girl that
her boyfriend was really crap and she should dump him. Jim De Liscard
was telling us that everything in the whole world was crap, Julia Daly
was beng severely maligned in her absence and I was trying out some of
this standing up stuff of which I'd heard so much.
Somewhere around 8am we decided it must be breakfast time and therefore
this might be a fine point at which to end party.
Alan Sullivan and I retired to eat something with mushrooms and talk of
sociable fish we had known and try to formulate one of those early
morning fish philosophies.
>I have a piccy somewhere of him in a bath
>at a room party. He is out of focus, but everything else in the pic
>is pin-sharp.)
That sounds about right.
Tobes is always fuzzy.
http://www.scream.demon.co.uk Jim Trash
Steve Glover
In article <qVFBOHAw...@cartref.demon.co.uk>, Arwel Parry
<ar...@cartref.demon.co.uk> writes
>Quite true, but 2016 will be its 950th anniversary, not its 1050th
>anniversary!
Damn! I've just realised -- could I have claimed I was talking about the
invasion at Senlac that was fought off by Shef wossname and his mates in
the Tom Shippey/Harry Harrison books?
Steve
--
Steve Glover
Steve Glover
>The French Revolution is out--Paris would have to be something the
>French would be too embarrassed to crow about. Agincourt in 2015? Or
>maybe the Restoration of the Bourbons?
If they were to build an appropriate hotel by the railway station:
Waterloo 'in '15?
Steve, wondering about a small hotel on the Belfast-Bangor Road for
2046...
--
Steve Glover
Steve Glover
In article <EIGMw...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, Steve Brewster
<ma...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> writes
>Steve 'are Eastercons a Good Thing?' B.
I'm beginning to think not, but then that's just 'cos I'm getting old
and out of touch.
Steve 'what about small cons, then?' G.
--
Steve Glover
Avram Grumer
In article <344bae98....@news.idt.net>, zs...@idt.net (Zev Sero) wrote:
>Never forget that all laws are ultimately enforced at gunpoint
>...the full force of the state, up to and including the threat to
>kill you if you resist this outrage. How on earth can anyone
>morally justify this? ...rather than mugging other people who
>don't share your feelings in the matter, and forcing
>them to contribute?
Zev, I've been wondering -- Is there a set of Perl scripts or something
that generates this sort of diatribe, complete with the stock phrases I've
repeated above, that libertarians download from an FTP server somewhere?
--
Avram Grumer Home: av...@interport.net
http://www.crossover.com/agrumer/ Work: agr...@crossover.com
If you want a picture of the future of Usenet,
imagine a foot stuck in a human mouth -- forever.
Bridget Hardcastle
In article <mo8EKOAF...@scream.demon.co.uk>, j...@scream.demon.co.uk
> >I have a piccy somewhere of him in a bath
> >at a room party. He is out of focus, but everything else in the pic
> >is pin-sharp.)
>
> That sounds about right.
> Tobes is always fuzzy.
That'll be the haze of alcohol vapour surrounding him; it mucks up the
camera film something chronic. ;-)
Bug
Gary Farber
In <344bae98....@news.idt.net> Zev Sero <zs...@idt.net> wrote:
[. . .]
: Never forget that all laws are ultimately enforced at gunpoint.
Yup. Good thing, too, or some assholes wouldn't obey them.
: If you try importing Central American bananas to the UK, you
: will not get a polite letter asking you to please have pity on
: the poor islanders whose only income is from growing bananas,
: you will get the police showing up to confiscate either the
: whole shipment, or a large amount of money (I don't know which).
: And their demand will not be polite, but rather backed up by
: the full force of the state, up to and including the threat to
: kill you if you resist this outrage.
Fine or jail, actually. They'll only threaten to kill you if you try to
escape jail.
: How on earth can anyone morally justify this?
Easy. We don't exist as individuals in a vacuum. We are compelled to
work out ways to work together. These ways are as yet imperfect, and are
certainly *more* perfectable -- and I'm happy to, to a large extent,
continue to try to perfect them towards more libertarian principles as is
possible -- without being infinitely perfectable. Meanwhile, we're doing
the best we can, and this involves the enforcement of group decisions
upon individuals. If you don't like it, you are free to remove yourself
from a society that runs this way. Feel free. Trot off to an island and
form a government that doesn't involve threat of gunpoint. I'd be
thrilled to see this happen. Should it be successful, the moral force
would go a long way towards shaming the rest of the world into Better
Ways.
Meanwhile, while you are free in this society to lobby for more
libertarian-directed changes -- and I'll agree with many, though not with
all -- learn to accept that many of us think that "gunpoint" is a morally
acceptable necessity for the continuation of civil order.
Learn also that this argument that, ooh, laws are enforced by gunpoint,
puts some of us to sleep, moral dunces that we are, and is an argument
that goes nowhere save to point out those who are keen on libertarian
cant.
[. . . .]
Gary "they use bazooka, tanks, and planes, too" Farber
--
--
Copyright 1997 by Gary Farber; Experienced Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC
Gary Farber
I wrote:
: I'm simply not aware of dramatically different practical systems,
I should have added "that include greater individual personal freedom."
Of course, there are many political systems that have *less* individual
freedom than our Western democratic variants.
Avram Grumer
In article <3479c7ae...@news.idt.net>, zs...@idt.net (Zev Sero) wrote:
>You can be a nice guy most of the time, but at
>times like this, people like you make me sick.
Does being made sick qualify as a taking?
--
Avram Grumer Home: av...@interport.net
http://www.crossover.com/agrumer/ Work: agr...@crossover.com
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.
Teach him how to fish, and you can sell him equipment.
Seth Breidbart
In article <344bb07f....@news.idt.net>, Zev Sero <zs...@idt.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 97, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>
>>And Roz Kaveney described him as a one-man morality play. At, um,
>>not Confabulation, the one in the Escher Hotel.
>Oh, I didn't realise that they were a chain. I thought there
>was just the Escher Memorial Hilton in Rye Town NY, where
>Lunacon is held, and I've heard there's one in Maryland
>them, and Hanna Shapero did a painting based on the song.
>Interesting to hear that they've expanded to the UK.
The real one used to be in DC, and there was a pretty good one in
Philadelphia (across the street from where Philcon now is).
Seth
mike weber
On 26 Oct 1997 16:26:01 -0500, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>Learn also that this argument that, ooh, laws are enforced by gunpoint,
>puts some of us to sleep, moral dunces that we are, and is an argument
>that goes nowhere save to point out those who are keen on libertarian
>cant.
>
>[. . . .]
>
>Gary "they use bazooka, tanks, and planes, too" Farber
>
to sleep, no -- "...that's when I reach for my revolver", yes...
<mike weber> <<emsh...@aol.com>>
Gary Farber
In <6319dv$i...@panix3.panix.com> Seth Breidbart <se...@panix.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: The real one used to be in DC,
No, that wasn't part of Escher chain; that was the Sheraton Gormenghast.
: and there was a pretty good one in
: Philadelphia (across the street from where Philcon now is).
: Seth
Zev Sero
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:21:53 -0400, av...@interport.net (Avram Grumer)
wrote:
>In article <3479c7ae...@news.idt.net>, zs...@idt.net (Zev Sero) wrote:
>
>>You can be a nice guy most of the time, but at
>>times like this, people like you make me sick.
>
>Does being made sick qualify as a taking?
Not unless it was done deliberately for that purpose. Even if
the sight of someone were to make me physically, rather than
figuratively, ill, e.g. because of a gross physical deformity,
that person can hardly be called an aggressor simply for
existing. And the principle of proportional response would
indicate that the only legitimate recourse I would have against
someone who did *deliberately* cause me emotional distress (make
me figuratively sick) would be to respond in kind, with harsh
words. Escalating to physical force would IMHO be almost always
unwarranted.
--
Zev Sero
zs...@idt.net
Zev Sero
On 26 Oct 1997 19:40:30 -0500, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>In <3479c7ae...@news.idt.net> Zev Sero <zs...@idt.net> wrote:
>: On 26 Oct 1997 16:26:01 -0500, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>: > If you don't like it, you are free to remove yourself
>: >from a society that runs this way. Feel free.
>: If you don't like being mugged, feel free to remove yourself from
>: the city. Meanwhile, don't complain about the mugger, just smile
>: and give him your wallet. Oh, and if you don't like being raped,
>: don't go out alone at night, and if you do you have no grounds for
>: outrage.
>We live under a particular form of govermental system and political
>philosophy with which you do not apparently agree (I don't agree with
>every clause, either, of course); since your answer does not relate to
>said governmental system and political philosophy, it is a non-sequitur.
We live in a city where there are thugs around who rob people and/or
rape them. Living in this city does not constitute consent to be
robbed or raped by these thugs. This happens to be a place where the
uniformed thugs are remarkably restrained, when compared to the
behaviour of their colleagues in many other places, and where they
seem to be doing an increasingly better job of protecting people from
their un-uniformed and more-colourfully-uniformed competition. Telling
someone that if she doesn't like being beaten by her spouse she should
go sleep in the park is neither good advice nor does it justify the
beating. Nor does her choosing (perhaps foolishly) to venture into
the park justify her being raped there.
>: >Meanwhile, while you are free in this society to lobby for more
>: >libertarian-directed changes -- and I'll agree with many, though not with
>: >all -- learn to accept that many of us think that "gunpoint" is a morally
>: >acceptable necessity for the continuation of civil order.
>
>: Which will promptly collapse if everyone doesn't contribute to the
>: poor banana growers in the Windies.
>
>Strawman.
No, that was the subject on which I made my remarks. That is the
Subject of the thread, and it hadn't had time to drift from that
topic, because the post which you followed up was the initial post
in the thread. I can understand making exceptions to the nonagression
principle when civil order is indeed in danger of imminent collapse;
the lesser evil and all that. But the poster to whom I was responding
(under the Jubilee thread) was justifying the use of force to compel
people to buy a particular sort of bananas, so no such compelling need
exists.
>: Or to whatever *your* favourite
>: charity is. Yeah, right.
>
>Strawman.
See above. When discussing characters of little brain in _The Wizard
of Oz_, straw men are not strawmen.
>: If you're justifying initiating force as
>: an extreme solution to prevent a major disaster, akin with drowning
>: baby Stalin before he grows up to kill all those people, or even with
>: stealing a car to get someone in critical condition to a hospital, I
>: could understand it, but when you start justifying it every time
>: someone disagrees with you on what sort of bananas they should buy
>
>I'm not. I'm responded to the incredibly tired "our laws are based on
>guns!" revelation, to which we are all apparently supposed to gasp in
>horror, never having noticed this before.
When people propose using laws to achieve their desired results, they
generally don't seem to realise that the question they *must* answer
is: is this result worth killing for? Is it worth beating someone
up for? Because if it isn't, then you have to face up to the fact
that enforcing a law is the equivalent of threatening to beat up or
kill anyone who chooses not to obey it, and is prepared to resist it
at any price.
> Our laws aren't based on guns;
>they're based on the theory that we participate in a civil society, into
>which we have democratic input, mass democratic control (which I agree is
>highly flawed, at best), and mutual obligation to each other, as well as
>being based upon rights of individual freedom.
And which enforces its decisions with guns. If you wouldn't be
justified in pulling a gun yourself to force someone to behave in
the way you want, then you can't possibly be justified in making a
law to that effect and authorising the police to pull their guns
to enforce it. If you see someone being raped, you have every
right to pull a gun yourself to stop it; therefore the police can
act in your place. But if you see someone buying the wrong brand
of bananas, I don't think you would argue that you have the right
to threaten her, so what gives you and those who agree with you
the right to make a law and send the police to do so?
>: You can be a nice guy most of the time, but at
>: times like this, people like you make me sick.
On further reflection, I apologise for this remark. I probably
wouldn't have made it to your face, and if I had, my facial
expression and voice intonation might have made it less offensive
than it seems when it stands on its own in writing. I enjoy your
company, and hope that you enjoy mine. The opinion that you
expressed is one that I regard as among the most evil that a person
is capable of entertaining, but I've found that people are capable
of entertaining all sorts of ideas while still being not just
charming - which any villain can be - but genuinely nice people.
I hold the views that I do, and yet some of my best friends are
socialists, anti-nuclear luddites, religious totalitarians, and
others who hold opinions to which I cannot possibly give sanction.
On reflection (which I did a good deal of after posting my
previous article), it seems to me that so long as someone does
not act on these opinions I'm capable of still respecting them.
I don't think that I could have a good opinion of someone who
actually aborted a baby, or bashed a poofter, or turned over to
the police a dealer in pot or bananas; but merely supporting such
actions doesn't seem to affect my capacity to accept that person
as a friend. I'm not sure how I'd deal with someone who supported
Farrakhan or Sharpton or the Klan, so there's still something
wrong with the above self-analysis, but it's at least a first
approximation. Again, Gary, I'm sorry to have said that. So long
as you don't beat up any fruiterers, that is...
>"Your" money was not produced in a vacuum; you'd have nothing if not for
>the contributions shared with you by other members of society, including
>many produced through the Evil Government.
The government produces almost nothing.
>You live in a society where
>people largely were educate in public schools,
Which do no better a job than private schools do. After the govt
forces people to pay for the schools whether they use them or not,
it's no wonder that people choose to at least get some value for
their money. If the mafia gave merchants a T-shirt after shaking
them down for protection money, I wouldn't expect them to throw the
shirt out.
> drive on public roads,
Which drove the private roads out of business, leaving people with
no alternative. Also see above.
> are protected by public police,
One legitimate govt function, to the extent that any govt function
is legitimate. The police exercise on behalf of the victims of
violent crime their right to self defence. The mafia provides the
same service, but less efficiently and at a higher cost.
>drink water made largely safe by public
>enforcement, eat food made largely safe by public enforcement,
and could have done so equally well or better without it.
> use
>infrastructure paid for by public tax money, and communicate on an
>Internet that partially grew out of government funding.
ditto.
--
Zev Sero
zs...@idt.net
Avram Grumer
>I don't think that I could have a good opinion of
>someone who actually aborted a baby...
Then you may wish to avoid this topic in the future. I know at least a
couple of women in fandom who have had abortions. There are certainly
more, with whom the matter has just never come up in conversation (at
least not with me).
--
Avram Grumer Home: av...@interport.net
http://www.crossover.com/agrumer/ Work: agr...@crossover.com
If music be the food of love, then some of it be the Twinkies of
dysfunctional relationships.
Dave Locke
Zev Sero phosphorized:
> I don't think that I could have a good opinion of someone who
> actually aborted a baby
Would you think better of them if they died carrying it to term?
---
Dave | dave...@bigfoot.com | http://www.angelfire.com/oh/slowdjin
Kate Schaefer
demon.co.uk> <344a8f13...@news.de
Organization: Seattle Community Network
In a previous article, emsh...@aol.com (mike weber) says:
>On 26 Oct 1997 16:26:01 -0500, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>
>>Learn also that this argument that, ooh, laws are enforced by gunpoint,
>>puts some of us to sleep, moral dunces that we are, and is an argument
>>that goes nowhere save to point out those who are keen on libertarian
>>cant.
>>
>>[. . . .]
>>
>>Gary "they use bazooka, tanks, and planes, too" Farber
>>
>
>to sleep, no -- "...that's when I reach for my revolver", yes...
Middle ground, middle ground: the defense of democracy does not require
quoting from notorious fascists. This thread has gone under to
what's-his-name's law now, hasn't it? I mean, mentioning any Nazi
qualifies, does it not?
(I just looked this up, thinking it was Goering but not sure if it wasn't
Goebbels instead, and was surprised to learn that it's actually Hanns
Johst, of whom I had never heard. Time to read more mid-20th-century
history.)
--
Kate Schaefer
ka...@scn.org